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newtoboard
11-23-2012, 03:16 PM
Does anybody know the subclades of R1a these groups would have belonged to? Scythians (along with their brother groups, Sarmatians, Alans and Saka stretched from E. Ukraine/Crimea to The outer edge of the Tarim and Drazungana Basins (which I guess were Tocharian speaking at least as far east as the Kingom ofLoulan)? Was their R1a homoegnous and which clade? If it was indeed Z93+ was it also L342.2+ and did all these Scythians really just dissappear or is their ydna found among Ukranians, Tatars, Bashkirs?

Abashevo reflects the movement of Indo-Iranians into the forest zone where apparently East Baltic and Uralic speakers existed? So would Abashevo be Z93+, Z280+, N1c1 and I1?

What about Tocharian R1a?

Anything else besides R1a present in these groups? Why did Tocharians lack mtdna T, U and X like other IE groups?

Silesian
11-24-2012, 06:56 AM
From a different perspective, various authors have equated the Scythians to various groups. For example, the story/legend, of Ashkenaz.

Wiki;
Ashkenaz is often identified with the Scythians and Sarmatians, due in part to the use of the name "Ashkuz" (Saka) for the Scythians in Assyrian Akkadian inscriptions. It may also refer to the Phrygians, who according to Homer's Iliad settled around Lake Ascania. The Gimirri or Gomer had previously been associated the Cimmerians.

Isaac Asimov has proposed that biblical Ashkenaz (אשכנז) arose from Ashkūz (אשכוז) (= the Scythians) by an old misreading of נ (nun) for ו (vav).

"According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised (i R 45, col. 2, 27 jf.), the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the scepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of Lake Urumiyeh"

"In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories,[1] and, from the 11th century onwards, with northern Europe and Germany.[2] The region of Ashkenaz was centred on the Rhineland and the Palatinate (notably Worms and Speyer), in what is now the westernmost part of Germany. "

The last quote was written in a journal from the University of Jerusalem in 1936, it is in Hebrew; I have sourced the reference from Wiki, however need someone to interpret the Hebrew.[ Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]

Also;

"These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name.[9] In ancient Hebrew texts, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer)" This source, I have not been able to verify.

In common with some of the regions listed above,besides R1a Z93/458 perhaps R1b>R-M269>L23> R-Z2105 which is perhaps old, and extends to a large geographical region, Italy, Balkans, Albania,Armenia, Iranian speaking tribes[ Lurs, Talysh, Ossets], Ukrainians, Poles, and Bashkir, and India.

newtoboard
11-24-2012, 02:05 PM
From a different perspective, various authors have equated the Scythians to various groups. For example, the story/legend, of Ashkenaz.

Wiki;
Ashkenaz is often identified with the Scythians and Sarmatians, due in part to the use of the name "Ashkuz" (Saka) for the Scythians in Assyrian Akkadian inscriptions. It may also refer to the Phrygians, who according to Homer's Iliad settled around Lake Ascania. The Gimirri or Gomer had previously been associated the Cimmerians.

Isaac Asimov has proposed that biblical Ashkenaz (אשכנז) arose from Ashkūz (אשכוז) (= the Scythians) by an old misreading of נ (nun) for ו (vav).

"According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised (i R 45, col. 2, 27 jf.), the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the scepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of Lake Urumiyeh"

"In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories,[1] and, from the 11th century onwards, with northern Europe and Germany.[2] The region of Ashkenaz was centred on the Rhineland and the Palatinate (notably Worms and Speyer), in what is now the westernmost part of Germany. "

The last quote was written in a journal from the University of Jerusalem in 1936, it is in Hebrew; I have sourced the reference from Wiki, however need someone to interpret the Hebrew.[ Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]

Also;

"These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name.[9] In ancient Hebrew texts, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer)" This source, I have not been able to verify.

In common with some of the regions listed above,besides R1a Z93/458 perhaps R1b>R-M269>L23> R-Z2105 which is perhaps old, and extends to a large geographical region, Italy, Balkans, Albania,Armenia, Iranian speaking tribes[ Lurs, Talysh, Ossets], Ukrainians, Poles, and Bashkir, and India.

While I agree Scythian was a term used to describe various tribes the steepe tribes seem to have been consolidated under one banner consisting of a NE Iranian language and a homogenous culture according to Mallory.

Armenia really doesn't have any Scythian history. The presence of Scythians in Armenia or West Asia in general is short lived. I'd be surprised if they were anything but R1a with minor amount of R1b, J2a, G or I which they might have picked up through the assimilation of BMAC farmers.

Can you go into more detail about R-Z2105 and its presence in Iran, Bashkirs and South Asia? I thought the R1b of the Bashkirs indicates a founder effect from a recent European ancestor.

Rathna
11-24-2012, 04:49 PM
Silesian, I may translate only the title [Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]: The names Ashkenaz and Sepharad.
About R-Z2105 we need to know more, also about its subclades L277 and L584, to not saying the L584 subclades, so far found only in a Jew, who matched closely me (but I am L277- and L584- like you) and in part in an Iraqi guy.

Silesian
11-25-2012, 01:26 AM
Scythopolis

http://www.bibleplaces.com/bethshean.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thedecapolis.png

"Pompey and the Romans rebuilt Beth Shean in 63 BC and it was renamed Scythopolis ("city of the Scythians;" cf. Col 3:11). It became the capital city of the Decapolis and was the only one on the west side of the Jordan."

If the Scythians established a colony in Palestine/Jordan, why not in there own territory, Transcaucasia/Armenia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScythianGroups.png

z2105 in Bashkirs=Remnants of Indo-Iranians/Scythians, compare:

Autosomal connection, West Asian_North European= same branch according to the following:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TQdn4OG62eI/AAAAAAAADCs/oQZVH6Gzeh8/s1600/dendrogram15.png

Ysearch [Czech 1180] sample U98VT is most likely Z2105 about 200km from my paternal ancestors in Silesia. I'm enlisted to join the India subcontinent project, scroll down to the R1b section, that is me with a family history from Silesia, check out DYS-464 pattern 14_15_16_18 is very uncommon in the Western European R1b branches, R-M269>L23>L150>L51, however it is found in the Western Asia and Southern Asia R-M269>L23>L150>Z2105
"India subcontinent DNA Project (incl. India, Pakistan,Bangladesh,Nepal,Bhutan" project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults

Silesian
11-25-2012, 01:42 AM
It is not hard to see the admixture. That is why in this project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are between 10-20 different lines of R1b.There is also R1a line, perhaps more, a Q line.

As well as about 10+/- ydna G lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_with_Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29

That is admixture of between 20-30 various ydna lines at a minimum from various regions.


Some of these lines are quite uncommon due to there age. However some of the uncommon lines of different branches(R/Q/G) intersect or are found in the same region, and it generally is to the North of where everyone is putting the origin of R-M269 in Southern Levant. The vast majority of these I would speculate to be converts, some quite possibly Indo-Iranian/Scythians as evident by the mixing of languages.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Shirazi

newtoboard
11-25-2012, 01:54 PM
Who is putting the origin of M-269 in the Souther Levant? Eastern Anatolia, Armenia or West Iran is what I have heard. Also I don't see the connection between R1b and Scythians. Very few South Asians and Central Asians have R1b. Armenia is hardly Scythia. Its not like there is much if any, Scythian ancvcestry there. Scythians probably really only left ancestry in Andronovo/Abashevo land. Everywhere else they were few in numbers, length of empire or were replaced.

Silesian
11-25-2012, 09:44 PM
Very few South Asians and Central Asians have R1b.

z2105 covers a lot of ground.


Armenia is hardly Scythia. Its not like there is much if any, Scythian ancvcestry there.

I don't know what ydna Scythian ancestry was composed of. I can only speculate which possible clade covers the great distances/territories they lived in, and z2105 is a good candidate in my opinion.


Scythians probably really only left ancestry in Andronovo/Abashevo land. Everywhere else they were few in numbers, length of empire or were replaced.

Not unlike the distribution pattern of Z2105.

lgmayka
11-26-2012, 04:10 AM
check out DYS-464 pattern 14_15_16_18 is very uncommon in the Western European R1b branches, R-M269>L23>L150>L51, however it is found in the Western Asia and Southern Asia R-M269>L23>L150>Z2105
"India subcontinent DNA Project (incl. India, Pakistan,Bangladesh,Nepal,Bhutan" project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults
The DYS464=14-15-16-18 pattern is typical of what the Polish Project calls the L23EE Type, which is Z2105+. Among those who belong to L23EE, ancestries include Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, and Russia.

The apparent occurrence of this pattern in Pakistan and India is most intriguing. 195191 of India is Ysearch M3FMX. His nearest neighbors in Ysearch are JZA5D of Iraq and DK6NG of Italy.

newtoboard
12-01-2012, 02:26 PM
Is that ht-15 or an ht-35 type? What would explain its presence in India? A movement with the Indo-Iranians who I believe were lactose persistent which might have n origin in that eastern R1b type?

What explains that and R1b-m73 in central asia?

AJL
12-01-2012, 10:09 PM
About R-Z2105 we need to know more, also about its subclades L277 and L584, to not saying the L584 subclades, so far found only in a Jew, who matched closely me (but I am L277- and L584- like you) and in part in an Iraqi guy.

My father's mother's mother's father's yDNA line was R-L584, Sephardi from the Aleppo and Gaziantep areas.

Silesian
12-02-2012, 09:21 PM
Is that ht-15 or an ht-35 type?

R-M269+ L23+Z2105+


What would explain its presence in India? A movement with the Indo-Iranians

India, Gujarat, Bengal, and Pakistan. The samples from Pakistan, I believe are tied in, with Afghanistan.

Which I speculate will connect with the pockets of R1b found in the following studies.

Grugni et al. 2012

Assyrians from West Azarbaijan N39- 23%,
Azeri from West Azarbaijan N63-12%,
Persian from Fars N44-11%,
Lur from Lorestan N50-23%
Armenians from Tehran N34-23%

Bakht 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.,
S_Tlsh 18N 44% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.,
Gilaki 43N 23% Indo-Iranian (IE) Roewer et al.
Mazan 46N 15% Indo-Iranian (IE)Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43N 19% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.

The same region as shown in this video 2:00-2:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

newtoboard
01-04-2013, 05:38 PM
Did the R1a of Andronovo descend from Yamnaya or the Corded Ware?

Ral
02-25-2013, 09:15 PM
Andronovo...

newtoboard
02-26-2013, 01:28 PM
Andronovo people probably spoke a Turkic.
Andronovo people lived in log cabins.
Indra is the epithet of "pur destroyer" (Rig Veda, 4, 30, 20).
Chuvash «pur»,all turkic «bura»-log cabin.
Besides, in the Vedic texts mention ruins (arma, armaka), which is home to "sorcerers".
Turkic armak- «to destroy»,but arba-«to conjure».
Andronovo people never kept pigs, but in Iranian languages purs/pasa (goes to the Indo-European «pors») – pig.
Aryans were not Andronovo people. Aryans fought against Andronovo people.



Did you join so you could just post your panturk nonsense?

Ral
02-26-2013, 04:34 PM
Oh no, you're asked:

Does anybody know the subclades of R1a these groups would have belonged to...
I said. No more.If it helps you to understand

newtoboard
02-26-2013, 04:47 PM
Oh no, you're asked:

I said. No more.If it helps you to understand

It helps if you don't type nationalistic, moronic nonsense.

Ral
02-26-2013, 05:39 PM
It helps if you don't type nationalistic, moronic nonsense.
it's not nonsense, this is the logic, but I'll delete post if you want.
By the way,tree of subclade R-L342.2
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9962/andronl342.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/andronl342.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

AJL
02-26-2013, 07:14 PM
Kit 164862 is almost certainly not ethnically Arab, but Iranian. His surname, Dashti, is clearly Iranian.

L342.2 in all likelihood pre-dates any current ethnic group. Some of its subgroups, on the other hand, may not.

Also bear in mind that the area Tatars, Bashkirs, and Ashkenazi-Levites originate in seems to have been populated almost entirely by nomadic Eastern Iranian speakers who were Turkicized around 1500 years ago. So it is not incorrect to say Turkic – especially for the first two, since they remain so – but it is also correct to refer to them as historically Iranian. A more neutral term would be something like "Andronovan" or "Sintashtan," though this identification is not certain.

Ral
02-27-2013, 05:12 AM
Also bear in mind that the area Tatars, Bashkirs, and Ashkenazi-Levites originate in seems to have been populated almost entirely by nomadic Eastern Iranian speakers who were Turkicized around 1500 years ago.
Or earlier?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180365/
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5835/10053010243a9c28278442a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/10053010243a9c28278442a.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
It is expected that Andronovo haplogroups are not the parent of the Asian haplogroups L342.2, but are related to them.
How do you explain that?
ANDRON S10, S16 13-25-16-11-11-14-10-14-11-18-15-14-11-16-20-12-23
TAGAR S29 13-25-x-11-11-14-x-14-11-17-15-14-11-16-x-12-23

AJL
02-27-2013, 01:50 PM
C3, N, and O are absolutely expected in this area, even today, as are some kinds of R1b1. There does seem to have been some R1a1a1 there but we don't know that it was L342.2 yet -- though it seems likely this was attached to the Tocharians, who once occupied roughly the area now inhabited by the Uyghur. The Tocharians might have been at least Z93 and quite possibly were L342.2.

Some of these Tocharians may have adopted Turkic culture earlier than AD 500. But you'd also have to be deluded to think that all L342.2 (which includes probably half the population of such Indo-Iranian-speaking countries as India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan) was always Turkic, especially when it corresponds so well to the red and brown areas on this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

Ral
02-28-2013, 03:30 PM
C3, N, and O are absolutely expected in this area, even today, as are some kinds of R1b1. There does seem to have been some R1a1a1 there but we don't know that it was L342.2 yet -- though it seems likely this was attached to the Tocharians, who once occupied roughly the area now inhabited by the Uyghur. The Tocharians might have been at least Z93 and quite possibly were L342.2.

Some of these Tocharians may have adopted Turkic culture earlier than AD 500. But you'd also have to be deluded to think that all L342.2 (which includes probably half the population of such Indo-Iranian-speaking countries as India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan) was always Turkic, especially when it corresponds so well to the red and brown areas on this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png
Tocharian Centum-speakers were L342.2? I doubt it.
I believe that r1a and r1b are not Indo-European haplogroups (call them gently-pre-Indo-European.)
About Tochars:
http://bafsudralam.blogspot.ru/2009/02/linguistic-support-for-extra-nubian.html
http://www.academia.edu/1805538/Meroitic_Religion
If Clyde Winters is right, Tocharian factor can be ignored when studying L342.2 migrations.

AJL
03-01-2013, 12:56 AM
Tocharian Centum-speakers were L342.2? I doubt it.

Why? Imagine Centum is the original (P)IE state, and Satem branches off (phylogenetically). The furthest branches from the centre of (P)IE are Centum precisely because they weren't there any longer when the Satem change occurred.

Ian B
03-02-2013, 12:09 AM
My father's mother's mother's father's yDNA line was R-L584, Sephardi from the Aleppo and Gaziantep areas.But your fathers mothers mothers fathers YDNA would not pass to you as females don't have YDNA, but your fathers mothers mothers mothers mothers MtDNA would.

AJL
03-02-2013, 12:32 AM
But your fathers mothers mothers fathers YDNA would not pass to you as females don't have YDNA, but your fathers mothers mothers mothers mothers MtDNA would.

Do you think your ancestry consists only of your own yDNA, or that this is the only line that's useful, genealogically, to test?

{EDIT}
Also, to correct your statement, your father's...mother will never pass on mtDNA.

curiousaboutmigrations
03-04-2013, 10:39 PM
If there is no male relative available to test for Y DNA, but autosomal Dodecad based on Family Finder raw autosomal scores says someone is 86.1% Ashkenazi and 13.9% Nogai (as second population), and the paternal males are buried under Levite-etched tombstones with the water jug and praying hands, and the surname includes the prefix"Levin" does that mean the Y chromosome may be guessed at to be similar to the Nogai? The rest of the autosomal score is 24% West Asian, 18.1% SouthWest Asian, 35% Mediterranean and 18% Northern European with 2% Siberian and 06% East Asian. Does this sound like the person is Turkish, Caucasus Mountains, Scythian, Nogai, mostly ancient Italian-Greek-Anatolian, Middle Eastern, or East European? Just curious as the man was raised mostly by Greek-Americans. The great grandparents prior to 1854 were Ashkenazi from Eastern Poland. The female paternal Y chromosome was R1b Ashkenazi from W. Ukraine. And the maternal grandmother came from Moldova/Bessarabia prior to 1887. How did the Nogai get into the Ashkenazi male side? Was there a lot of intermarriage, possibly in what century? The family has been in the USA since the 1880s and some of the relatives have married into Greek and Italian families and English Protestant families. Anyone know what origin the Ashkenazi Levites may have if the Y chromosome is unknown? Thank you. I'm helping this person's female descendant find the majority of his possible origins. The printout from autosomal to Dodecad Oracle software noted the following Globe 13: Siberian 2%, Amerindian 0.1%, West African, 0.3%, Paleo African, 0.5%, Southwest Asian, 18.1%, East Asian 0.6%, Mediterranean 34.6%, Arctic 0.5%, West Asian 23.8%, North Europe 18%, East African 1.5%. Does this sound like a Mediterranean origin, Turkic, Scythian, Middle Eastern, or other origin? Any ideas? Thank you. All these people are in the age 71 to 90+ category, and would love to know the bulk of their origin. They are humanists with grandparents who were Ashkenazi whose descendants married to Greeks, English, Levantines, and Italians by the present generation.

AJL
03-05-2013, 12:14 AM
If there is no male relative available to test for Y DNA, but autosomal Dodecad based on Family Finder raw autosomal scores says someone is 86.1% Ashkenazi and 13.9% Nogai (as second population), and the paternal males are buried under Levite-etched tombstones with the water jug and praying hands, and the surname includes the prefix"Levin" does that mean the Y chromosome may be guessed at to be similar to the Nogai?

You can't ever go between Y and autosomes entirely on guesswork. I am sharing with a number of Levisomethings at 23andme, and they are at the very least divided among E1b1b, G2a, J2, R1a-Z2122, R1b1a2a*, and R2a, with maybe a T or J1 in the mix that I've forgotten. Their autosomal profiles, however, might be indistinguishable.

Ian B
03-05-2013, 12:19 AM
Do you think your ancestry consists only of your own yDNA, or that this is the only line that's useful, genealogically, to test?

{EDIT}
Also, to correct your statement, your father's...mother will never pass on mtDNA.
No, that's precisely my point made earlier. I'd be interested to know about all contributors.
and:
Would she not pass on mtDNA to her daughters?

AJL
03-05-2013, 12:25 AM
No, that's precisely my point made earlier. I'd be interested to know about all contributors.
and:
Would she not pass on mtDNA to her daughters?

She would but you had a father in there somewhere. :)

DMXX
03-27-2013, 04:41 PM
C3, N, and O are absolutely expected in this area, even today, as are some kinds of R1b1. There does seem to have been some R1a1a1 there but we don't know that it was L342.2 yet -- though it seems likely this was attached to the Tocharians, who once occupied roughly the area now inhabited by the Uyghur. The Tocharians might have been at least Z93 and quite possibly were L342.2.

Some of these Tocharians may have adopted Turkic culture earlier than AD 500. But you'd also have to be deluded to think that all L342.2 (which includes probably half the population of such Indo-Iranian-speaking countries as India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan) was always Turkic, especially when it corresponds so well to the red and brown areas on this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

On DNA-Forums, I recall one informed user (may have been yourself actually) stating that some of the Y-DNA R1a1a observed in East-Central Asia (Kyrgyz) did not fit their geographical placement and belonged to the "NW European branch".

At the time, I mused whether or not this was genetic support for the Centum-Satem IE isogloss with one form of R1a1a being represented by Centum languages (in this case NW European IE languages and Tocharian).

Since then, has any SNP testing been carried out on those geographically misplaced R1a's (i.e. for Z93 or Z280)?

AJL
03-27-2013, 05:20 PM
On DNA-Forums, I recall one informed user (may have been yourself actually) stating that some of the Y-DNA R1a1a observed in East-Central Asia (Kyrgyz) did not fit their geographical placement and belonged to the "NW European branch".

At the time, I mused whether or not this was genetic support for the Centum-Satem IE isogloss with one form of R1a1a being represented by Centum languages (in this case NW European IE languages and Tocharian).

Since then, has any SNP testing been carried out on those geographically misplaced R1a's (i.e. for Z93 or Z280)?

I think it may have been me, but this was before all of our current SNPs, and in the cold light of these, there doesn't seem to be any indication of the Northwest group's SNP (L664) among Kyrgyz (who appear to be all Z94+), and the root of the link is probably that both branches are not like the main European Z283 branch.

It still seems the case, however, that there are trickles of Z93 and Z94 in northwest Europe, some of which may have come with L664. In many cases, though, this is probably attributable to historical-era migrations e.g. Sarmatian cavalry/archers, and in some cases, Roma. Z93 has been found among Hungarian Roma, which did not surprise me given its prevalence in northern South Asia. I would like to see these Roma test for L657 and Z2123 as well, though, since I doubt many are Z93*.

Ral
04-08-2013, 01:24 PM
Why? Imagine Centum is
Because its just theory. Thats real document:
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~1562~160094
Die Volker des Kaukasus U.S.W. gezeichnet u. gestochen in der geogr. Kunstschule zu …1848.
In left-bottom coner:
Indogermanische sprachfamilie:
...
Ossisch der Iron,Osseten
...
Turkische sprachen:
Bassianen,Karatschai,Alan-sind verturkte ein.

parasar
05-02-2013, 02:26 PM
If Clyde Winters is right, Tocharian factor can be ignored when studying L342.2 migrations.

Who is Clyde Winters? Is he the same person who churns out some junk papers that show a lack of basic knowledge?

A nugget: "As a result, the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of an African-Dravidian connection."
Why? Because: "The H1 haplotype is found among many Dravidians. Sengupta et al (2006) noted that the subclades H1 and H2 were found among 26% of the Dravidian speakers in their study, especially in Tamil Nadu." http://www.researchgate.net/publication/228635032_Y-Chromosome_evidence_of_an_African_origin_of_Dravid ian_agriculture

He does not even understand the difference between H1 haplotype found in Africans and the H1 haplogroup found among Dravidians.

Ral
05-05-2013, 08:46 PM
Who is Clyde Winters? Is he the same person who churns out some junk papers that show a lack of basic knowledge?

A nugget: "As a result, the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of an African-Dravidian connection."
Why? Because: "The H1 haplotype is found among many Dravidians. Sengupta et al (2006) noted that the subclades H1 and H2 were found among 26% of the Dravidian speakers in their study, especially in Tamil Nadu." http://www.researchgate.net/publication/228635032_Y-Chromosome_evidence_of_an_African_origin_of_Dravid ian_agriculture

He does not even understand the difference between H1 haplotype found in Africans and the H1 haplogroup found among Dravidians.
I agree with you. I read more about Winters and I did not consider it a serious researcher.
However,Tarim mummies (allegedly being Tochars) with R1a probably are not Indo-Europeans.
They are the ancient Uyghurs.
Tarim funeral rites match
funeral rites of modern Uighurs.
From the book of the Przewalski("Fourth trip to Central Asia (1883-1885 years)",part 1):
...In Kara-Kurchin they(uighurs) lay dead on the boat, cover it with another boat and put the coffin in the thick reeds, they cover the range of the network. In the cemetery they stuck poles attached to them with wild yak tails

parasar
05-06-2013, 05:55 PM
I agree with you. I read more about Winters and I did not consider it a serious researcher.
However,Tarim mummies (allegedly being Tochars) with R1a probably are not Indo-Europeans.
They are the ancient Uyghurs.
Tarim funeral rites match
funeral rites of modern Uighurs.
From the book of the Przewalski("Fourth trip to Central Asia (1883-1885 years)",part 1):
...In Kara-Kurchin they(uighurs) lay dead on the boat, cover it with another boat and put the coffin in the thick reeds, they cover the range of the network. In the cemetery they stuck poles attached to them with wild yak tails

That is similar to the the rituals practiced by the Indo-Europeans too in the past through not as much now. Both boat/raft methods and pole methods (where a post/yupa/tree was placed over charred buried remains) are seen in ancient India along with devouring by birds and animals (similar to Parsi custom). Some see the stupa's central post as a more elaborate version of the yupa post. Perhaps this was something practiced both by the Hu (Uighur) and the Indo-Europeans.

Xuanzang: "There are three methods of paying the last tribute to the dead: first, by cremation—wood being made into a pyre, the body is burnt; second, by water—the body is thrown into a stream to float and fall into dissolution; third, by desertion, in which case the body is cast into some forest-wild to be devoured by beasts ... on a boat which they propel into the midst of the Ganges ..."

Please see also:
"When the cremation was over, they collected and preserved the bones, and proceeded to erect a tope" http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/f/fa-hien/f15l/chapter39.html


Rig Veda X, 18: "1 Go hence, O Death, pursue thy special pathway apart from that which Gods are wont to travel.
To thee I say it who hast eyes and hearest: Touch not our offspring, injure not our heroes.
2 As ye have come effacing Mrtyu's [Death] footstep, to further times prolonging your existence,
...
13 I stay the earth from thee, while over thee I place this piece of earth. May I be free from injury.
[B]Here let the Fathers keep this pillar firm for thee, [post/tope] and there let Yama make thee an abiding-place."

Fadlan on the Russians: "all the dead man's weapons …a third of his possessions, especially gold, his wives, concubines, and maids, and his horses are buried with him ...something resembling a round hillock on whose midst they set up a stout birch trunk."

Therefore, I think just based on funeral rites it would be difficult to assign either an Indo-European or a Turki orgin. They were likely a mix of Nordic, Indic and Mongoloid elements, anthropologically as well as culturally.

Eg. Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen - "Of the three skulls from Miran, datable between the last century B.C. and the third century A.D., one is probably Chinese, one probably Tibetan with a strong Nordic admixture, one preponderantly Nordic, possibly with some Indoid or Mongoloid features. In the third century Miran was a Tibetan fortress, so the Mongoloids were possibly soldiers of the garrison. The presence of Indoid features could be expected; the men on the third-century wall painting are Indians, the inscriptions are in Karosthi. But the Nordic features come as a surprise. A skull from Charchan, unfortunately undatable, is predominantly Nordic, with Indoid and Mongoloid admixture. One of the earlier crania from the Lopnor region, presumably datable to the first three centuries A.D., is Mongoloid with some Nordic features. From the mass cemetery in the same region, which only approximately can be dated after 200 A.D., comes the skull of a Mongoloid with some Nordic features and another one which is Indoid with Nordic and weak Mongoloid admixture. Around the beginning of our era, Europoids of the Nordic type lived, thus, both in the Semirechie and Hsin-chiang."

Ral
05-08-2013, 01:41 AM
That is similar to the the rituals practiced by the Indo-Europeans too in the past through not as much now. Both boat/raft methods and pole methods (where a post/yupa/tree was placed over charred buried remains) are seen in ancient India along with devouring by birds and animals (similar to Parsi custom). Some see the stupa's central post as a more elaborate version of the yupa post. Perhaps this was something practiced both by the Hu (Uighur) and the Indo-Europeans.

Xuanzang: "There are three methods of paying the last tribute to the dead: first, by cremation—wood being made into a pyre, the body is burnt; second, by water—the body is thrown into a stream to float and fall into dissolution; third, by desertion, in which case the body is cast into some forest-wild to be devoured by beasts ... on a boat which they propel into the midst of the Ganges ..."

Please see also:
"When the cremation was over, they collected and preserved the bones, and proceeded to erect a tope" http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/f/fa-hien/f15l/chapter39.html


Rig Veda X, 18: "1 Go hence, O Death, pursue thy special pathway apart from that which Gods are wont to travel.
To thee I say it who hast eyes and hearest: Touch not our offspring, injure not our heroes.
2 As ye have come effacing Mrtyu's [Death] footstep, to further times prolonging your existence,
...
13 I stay the earth from thee, while over thee I place this piece of earth. May I be free from injury.
[B]Here let the Fathers keep this pillar firm for thee, [post/tope] and there let Yama make thee an abiding-place."

Fadlan on the Russians: "all the dead man's weapons …a third of his possessions, especially gold, his wives, concubines, and maids, and his horses are buried with him ...something resembling a round hillock on whose midst they set up a stout birch trunk."

Therefore, I think just based on funeral rites it would be difficult to assign either an Indo-European or a Turki orgin. They were likely a mix of Nordic, Indic and Mongoloid elements, anthropologically as well as culturally.

Eg. Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen - "Of the three skulls from Miran, datable between the last century B.C. and the third century A.D., one is probably Chinese, one probably Tibetan with a strong Nordic admixture, one preponderantly Nordic, possibly with some Indoid or Mongoloid features. In the third century Miran was a Tibetan fortress, so the Mongoloids were possibly soldiers of the garrison. The presence of Indoid features could be expected; the men on the third-century wall painting are Indians, the inscriptions are in Karosthi. But the Nordic features come as a surprise. A skull from Charchan, unfortunately undatable, is predominantly Nordic, with Indoid and Mongoloid admixture. One of the earlier crania from the Lopnor region, presumably datable to the first three centuries A.D., is Mongoloid with some Nordic features. From the mass cemetery in the same region, which only approximately can be dated after 200 A.D., comes the skull of a Mongoloid with some Nordic features and another one which is Indoid with Nordic and weak Mongoloid admixture. Around the beginning of our era, Europoids of the Nordic type lived, thus, both in the Semirechie and Hsin-chiang."
You really think that Tarim mummies are unrelated to the Uighurs, but are related to Fadlan' russian or the Indians?
It is not similar(only boat). Compare.
Fadlan's russian:




1)ship
2)cremation
3) with wives, concubines
4)only noble russian




Indian:
1)boat on river
2)no cremation
3) single grave-boat
4)not an ordinary people




tarim mummies:
1) boat in the soil
2) no cremation
3) single graves
4) ordinary people




Uighur's ritual=tarim ritual
Also ,Przewalski describes uighur rituals of the area in which the Tarim mummies were found (may be just a few tens of kilometers separate them).These rituals clearly have different meaning.
If Indian "boat on river" is modification of first old arian tradition- cleansing of bones from the meat by birds and animals, fadlan's russian rital is modification of second old arian ritual-cremation (only with more pomp for noble).
But Tarim rituals probably related to religious beliefs about dead as a traveler(in other world). It is much like the Turkish religious beliefs.( Dead dressed in hiking clothes with all the equipment, put food and slain horse into the grave ).
It is phantasmagoria: West archaeologists dig up ancient Uighur graves , and instead learn how to bury in the nearby village appeal to the Rig Veda and semi-mythical fadlan's russian.:)

parasar
05-08-2013, 03:14 AM
You really think that Tarim mummies are unrelated to the Uighurs, but are related to Fadlan' russian or the Indians?
...


No, I actually think that Uighurs are indeed related to the Tarim folk, I just think that we can't discount that the Tarim folk were Indo-European speaking.
I also think that they are related, though not as closely, to the Rus and Indians.

newtoboard
05-08-2013, 07:53 PM
No, I actually think that Uighurs are indeed related to the Tarim folk, I just think that we can't discount that the Tarim folk were Indo-European speaking.
I also think that they are related, though not as closely, to the Rus and Indians.

The Tarim folk being Indo-European speaking is the mainstream theory and the only one that makes sense. No need to entertain other theorie from the school of thought that entertains Sumerian and Parthian as Turkish.

Ral
05-09-2013, 05:39 AM
No, I actually think that Uighurs are indeed related to the Tarim folk, I just think that we can't discount that the Tarim folk were Indo-European speaking.
I also think that they are related, though not as closely, to the Rus and Indians.

I do not rule that out.
But the Tocharian manuscripts and table is very strange documents.
I tried to find information about them (when and where they were found), but I found none. Around 2,500 years separates the Mummies and documents. Tocharian documents say about the rich literary tradition of the people, but there is no Tocharic placenames in Uyguristan or in Siberia. Nothing is known about the language of toсhars from Uygur,Chinese, Indian and Iranian sources.
Tocharian documents date back to 5-8 century is the time of the Uighur Khanate.
In order to mainstream religion (about Tochars-Indo-Europeans) became a fact, need a little: to find the toсhar graves of 5-8 centuries (desired with Tocharian inscriptions)
Then your guess is true. It is strange that such grave has not yet found.

Jean M
05-09-2013, 08:23 AM
Tocharian A (or East Tocharian) documents have mainly been found in the area of Turpan and Qarashahar. Tocharian B is found in the west around Kucha, but also in the same area as Tocharian A. [J.P. Mallory and Victor Mair, The Tarim Mummies (2008), p. 122. There are more details in Wikipedia: Tocharian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages). The earliest discovery was in the late 19th century, but it was not read until much later. One of the most recent discoveries was in 1974, when a farmer accidentally came across some fragments at a Buddhist site near Qarashahar (Yanqi).

Turkic speakers did not control the Tarim Basin until c. 563 AD. The Uyghurs specifically arrived later. About 800 AD an Uyghur translation of a Sanskrit drama was prepared. It contains a statement that it had been translated by a native of Agnidesa (the Sanskrit name for the Qarashahar region) from Sanskrit into the Toxri language, and then from the Toxri language into the Turkic language. Though it must be said that the whole question of what the Tocharians called themselves and what they were called by others is highly complex [Mallory and Mair 2008, pp. 280-1.]

The Uyghurs today seem to be a mixture of western and eastern ancestry. Li et al., Genetic Landscape of Eurasia and Admixture in Uyghurs, American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 85, no. 6 (2009), pp. 934–7 concluded that


historical records indicate that the present Uyghurs were formed by admixture between Tocharians from the west and Orkhon Uyghurs (Wugusi-Huihu, according to present Chinese pronunciation) from the east in the 8th century CE. The Uyghur Empire was originally located in Mongolia and conquered the Tocharian tribes in Xinjiang. Tocharians such as Kroran have been shown by archaeological findings to appear phenotypically similar to northern Europeans, whereas the Orkhon Uyghur people were clearly Mongolians. The two groups of people subsequently mixed in Xinjiang to become one population, the present Uyghurs.

parasar
05-10-2013, 02:22 AM
Jean,

Not to forget a potential Tocharian C.

"In addition to Tocharian, administrative texts have been discovered in Prakrit, an Indian language from the territory of Krorän; these documents contain many proper names and items of vocabulary that would appear to be borrowed from a form of Tocharian (sometimes known as Tocharian C) spoken by the native population."
http://penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/52-3/mallory.pdf

"Evidence for yet a third offshoot, Tocharian C, somewhat older than the other two, has been unearthed along the southern rim of the Tarim Basin."
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/general/

Ral
05-10-2013, 06:01 AM
Thanks to parasar,Jean for information about tochars.
And yet in the hypothesis Clyde Winters is something there(despite the oddness):in Sudan(where there was a Meroitic) were found many r1b,tocharian language is not reflected in the toponymy of Lop Nor, despite the rich written tradition. Maybe meroits migrated to Asia(not vice versa)?I will try to study this topic. There is little evidence.

Jean M
05-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Frankly I would pay no attention to the work of people who just jumble stuff together in a crazy mish-mash without true understanding of the material.

R1b in Africa is mainly V88 (R1b1c on the present tree.) http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html . V88 is correlated in Africa with the Chadic language, which belongs to the Afro-Asiatic family. It seems particularly closely related to Berber, and we find some V88 in Berbers too. It presumably arrived from the Levant (where there is also some V88) in the Neolithic, with people bringing farming to North Africa. See F. Cruciani et al., Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, European Journal of Human Genetics (2010), pp. 1–8.

424

V88 is not connected to Indo-European languages. In the days before we had an SNPs for V88 and the separate lineages of R1b in Europe, there was a lot of confusion between the R1b in Africa and the R1b in Europe. Not now though. They are clearly different lineages.

V88 has not been found in the Tarim Mummies. In fact no R1b has been found in the Tarim Mummies. Those people who thought that anyone speaking a centum variety of IE must be R1b were disappointed! I never thought that. I predicted R1a.

V88 has nothing to do with Tocharian and Tocharian has nothing to do with Chadic. The Afro-Asiatic family is called that because most of its branches are spoken in Africa, but one (Semitic) is spoken in West Asia. It is unrelated to Turkic.

Ral
05-10-2013, 04:10 PM
Frankly I would pay no attention to the work of people who just jumble stuff together in a crazy mish-mash without true understanding of the material.
Do not judge him severely (if you meant his statements about haplogroups). He is a linguist.
I've often seen other examples, when a top-level in haplogroups unsuccessfully tried to argue on linguistic topics.
I would like to ask you.
1) What is the time distance separates r1b haplogroup from Africa and Europe
2) If you are aware of the high frequencies of haplogroups r1b and r1a among the turkic peoples, could you explain how, where and when they have them there.
You can describe your personal opinion, or at least Mainstream (if it exists), please.

Jean M
05-10-2013, 04:37 PM
I certainly am aware of R1b and R1a in present-day speakers of Turkic languages. These appear to have been absorbed by Turkic-speakers from speakers of IE languages in the Tarim Basin and across the steppe and into Anatolia, as the Turkic peoples moved westwards from Mongolia. On the steppe the IE languages were mainly Iranian. There the R1a will probably turn out to be mainly Z93 (the Asian variety), and the R1b seems to be mainly M73 (R1b1a1).

R1a1a has been found in Scythian remains and remains of those we can deduce were their ancestors. These remains were not tested for Z93, but I would expect them to fall into that subclade, which is found today in Asia. See http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results. The Z94 subclade of Z93 has been found in Kyrgyz and its subclade Z2121 has been found in Bashkirs.

M73 has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia, but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%), and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%). Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey. In 2010 Myres et al. report that out of 193 R-M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions." Vince Vizachero, who runs an R1b project, has reported a few more instances of M73 in Europe. However it is very rare there.

425

Silesian
05-10-2013, 05:00 PM
425

You forgot to mention L23X51
426

Take this map for what it is worth I do not know how accurate it is. However of interest overall the region we find a loose fit with L23X51 and pockets of elevated variance within certain circled areas.

Jean M
05-10-2013, 06:18 PM
You forgot to mention L23X51.

You are right. The Bashkirs tested by Lobov 2009 actually had more R1b-M269 (34%) than R1b -M73 (13%), and that M269 may well have been L23.

alan
05-10-2013, 06:39 PM
A good study of all the pre-Slavic groups in and bordering Russia would be very interesting. I think its likely that the DNA of the ancient pre-Slavic inhabitants are largely absorbed into Turkic and Uralic groups. I am mighty suspicious that R1b was interested in the Ural metal deposits and also the deposits around Altai and this may explain how they were in those kind of positions and were absorbed by Turkic or other groups in later times.

alan
05-10-2013, 06:46 PM
If Klyosov's estimate is correct then the line leading to V88 diverged from the line leading to M269 and M77 something like 15000 years ago or thereabouts. So the pre-V88 lines may have been displaced into a different geography and cultural zone from the other branches at a vast time depth. So, I think the V88 connection with Chadic only tells us about the movement of that lineage (and perhaps its ancestor line) and tells us nothing about the linguistic-cultural-geographical aspects of the rest of R1b. In general R1b phylogeny would indicate that M73 is probably a much better indicator of the early location of the ancestral lineage of M269 than V88.

Silesian
05-10-2013, 06:53 PM
You are right. The Bashkirs tested by Lobov 2009 actually had more R1b-M269 (34%) than R1b -M73 (13%), and that M269 may well have been L23.

National clans - Y-DNA Classic Chart
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_Clans/default.aspx?section=yresults

223828 Nazarov Piotr Nazarov, b.1886, d.1932, Yaik Cossack clan R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+,L23+, L51-, M269+, P312-, U106-


Yanhari-Buryian Bashkir probably also L23+.

236257 Yanhari-Buryjan Bashkir Buransi b.1590, Bashkortostan,Yanhari-Buryjan clan Russian Federation R1b1a2a1 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=ymap >>select y Haplogroup R1b

Ral
05-11-2013, 12:22 PM
I certainly am aware of R1b and R1a in present-day speakers of Turkic languages. These appear to have been absorbed by Turkic-speakers from speakers of IE languages in the Tarim Basin and across the steppe and into Anatolia, as the Turkic peoples moved westwards from Mongolia. On the steppe the IE languages were mainly Iranian. There the R1a will probably turn out to be mainly Z93 (the Asian variety), and the R1b seems to be mainly M73 (R1b1a1).

R1a1a has been found in Scythian remains and remains of those we can deduce were their ancestors. These remains were not tested for Z93, but I would expect them to fall into that subclade, which is found today in Asia. See http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results. The Z94 subclade of Z93 has been found in Kyrgyz and its subclade Z2121 has been found in Bashkirs.

M73 has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia, but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%), and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%). Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey. In 2010 Myres et al. report that out of 193 R-M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions." Vince Vizachero, who runs an R1b project, has reported a few more instances of M73 in Europe. However it is very rare there.

425
1)Do I understand correctly: between European and African r1b distance of 9-10 thousand years?
2)Your prediction about the SNPs of tochar or Uighur SNPs,
which can be safely attributed to Tochars,please.

Jean M
05-11-2013, 01:53 PM
1) African/Levantine R1b1c (V88) has been variously estimated as arising 9200-5600 years ago (Cruciani 2010) or 9000 y.a. (Vince Vizachero). Such estimates are only that - estimates. They cannot be exact. The estimate you had from Alan was that of the branching between this lineage and R1b1a (P297/PF6398, L320), which leads to both R1b1a1 (M73), found in Central Asia, and R1b1a2 (M269), the mainly European branch. V88 is irrelevant to any discussion of Tocharian. It is not an ancestor to either M73 or M269 or any other R1b found in Turkic-speakers today. Click to enlarge the tree below (taken from Eupedia).

427

2) The Tarim Mummies from Xiaohe (Small River) Cemetery, Tarim Basin, Xinjiang Autonomous Region, which are deduced to be of Tocharian speakers, because of their early date (1980±40 BC), produced Y-DNA R1a1a in all seven of the males tested. Obviously people will go on arguing until a mummy is found clutching a tablet with Tocharian writing on it, and even then some will try to argue with the evidence. But the logical deduction on what evidence we have is that the first Tocharian speakers to arrive in the Tarim Basin were strongly R1a1a. Later it would be logical to expect the Tocharians to inter-marry with other inhabitants of the Silk Road towns, which would include Iranian speakers, also high in R1a1a, but perhaps with some R1b-M73 and R1b-L23 as well. Inter-marriage could also bring in some Central and East Asian Y-DNA. So it is impossible to guess the exact percentage of R1a1a in Tocharian-speakers by the time that Uyghurs arrived.

Ral
05-11-2013, 11:43 PM
1) African/Levantine R1b1c (V88) has been variously estimated as arising 9200-5600 years ago (Cruciani 2010) or 9000 y.a.

1) That is, it is possible that the distance between the African and European r1b is 5000 years ago (lower limit)?
2) Mainstream theory say that Tochars is descendants of afanasevan. They're Chinese Yuezhi.
They are kushans (they owned the Lop Nor before the Turks.)


Obviously people will go on arguing until a mummy is found clutching a tablet with Tocharian writing on it

You are right.
It will be difficult to interpret ambiguous. It becomes a fact.
But. Any theory is valid if it can predict the results of future studies.
For linguistic reasons, Tocharian language does not derive from the Aryan, and vice versa. It's like different paralleling subclades.
Do I understand correctly, that the mainstream theory predicts a "European" (or close to it) subclades R1a for tochars, not "Asian" (Aryan)-z93, and the like.

Jean M
05-12-2013, 07:12 AM
1) That is, it is possible that the distance between the African and European r1b is 5000 years ago (lower limit)?


Highly unlikely. It is presumed that the ancestor of the Chadic (and Berber) languages arrived in North Africa with farming c. 6000 BC. See Mediterraneans before writing: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/mediterraneans.shtml

It is wildly unlikely that Y-DNA R1b evolved in Africa, since R1 is not found there. Indeed (as far as I know) earlier forms of R1b than V88 are not found there. R descends from P-M45, which is Asian. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M207 Basal forms of R1, R1a and R1b occur in Iran, which is the likely source of R1b therefore.

2) Yes.


Do I understand correctly, that the mainstream theory predicts a "European" (or close to it) subclades R1a for tochars, not "Asian" (Aryan)-z93,

This is a very good question. It may be possible to distinguish Tocharian from Scythian/Saka R1a1a by subclade. The latter is pretty sure to be Z93+. The ancestors of the Tocharians, however, left from the eastern end of the European steppe (and perhaps before the Z93 mutation had occurred), so they could be Z93-.

Ral
05-12-2013, 09:36 PM
The ancestors of the Tocharians, however, left from the eastern end of the European steppe (and perhaps before the Z93 mutation had occurred), so they could be Z93-.
They must be z93- according to the theory. Even russians are z93-.
I like that you have taken responsibility for the correctness of the theory.And do not become evasive answer the questions.Well, perhaps I will be able to congratulate you for the brilliantly confirmed the prognosis.
Do you know when will be massively studied paleontology DNA?

newtoboard
08-15-2013, 06:48 PM
If the estimated date of 4400 years for Z93 is correct then it would be hard to associate Tocharians and the Afanasevo culture with Z93+.

What does Uyghur R1a look like? Besides their Z93+ do they have Z93* or Z283 lineages? Do they carry the genes for lactose persistence? Based on the Z93+ and other farming lineages in the Tarim it looks like Tocharians passed through Central Asia (where they likely learned oasis farming from the inhabitants of the BMAC culture). Either that or most of the West Eurasian ancestry of Uyghurs is from Saka/Sogdhian speakers and not Tocharians.

Maybe Tocharians belonged to their own branch of R1a? They could have belonged to a brother clade of Z93+, the way Z280+ is to M458+.

parasar
08-16-2013, 02:50 PM
If the estimated date of 4400 years for Z93 is correct then it would be hard to associate Tocharians and the Afanasevo culture with Z93+.

What does Uyghur R1a look like? Besides their Z93+ do they have Z93* or Z283 lineages? Do they carry the genes for lactose persistence? Based on the Z93+ and other farming lineages in the Tarim it looks like Tocharians passed through Central Asia (where they likely learned oasis farming from the inhabitants of the BMAC culture). Either that or most of the West Eurasian ancestry of Uyghurs is from Saka/Sogdhian speakers and not Tocharians.

Maybe Tocharians belonged to their own branch of R1a? They could have belonged to a brother clade of Z93+, the way Z280+ is to M458+.

Igor calculated the age of L657 to be ~4500 years. Please see the calculated bars only (the circles are placed without calculations). Z93 is at least as old as L657, though I think Z93 age is about thrice that.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=574&d=1374774319

TigerMW
08-16-2013, 04:00 PM
... http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=574&d=1374774319

Let me apolgize first as I'm just catching up in learning R1a. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but is this meaningful towards interpreting where some of the early splits in R1a took place? It looks fairly clear. Again, sorry if I wasn't up-to-speed with what's accepted or not.

L657 "Eastern sub-branch" and the L644 "Northwestern-1" are
1) the oldest subclades, and
2) both over 4000 ybp.
3) The labels to indicate a complete bi-polar nature in terms of geography.
4) They are split away from each other on early branching of the R1a tree.

At the same time we have CTS11962 "Central European" and Z287 "Old Scandianavian" as
5) being old too, about 4000 ybp,
6) but since they fall under Z93 they are both more closely related to L657 "Eastern sub-branch" than they are to L644 "Northwestern-1".

Jean M
08-16-2013, 04:37 PM
At the same time we have CTS11962 "Central European" and Z287 "Old Scandinavian" as
5) being old too, about 4000 ybp,
6) but since they fall under Z93.

They are not under Z93. This tree may be clearer.

616

Jean M
08-16-2013, 04:48 PM
L657 "Eastern sub-branch" and the L644 "Northwestern-1" are
1) the oldest subclades, and


Only half right. As of August 2013, the oldest subclades of R1a1a1 (M417) are
R1a1a1a (CTS7083/L664/S298)
R1a1a1b (S224/Z645, S441/Z647)

L657 is younger:

R1a1a1b > R1a1a1b2 (S202/Z93) > R1a1a1b2a (Z94) > R1a1a1b2a1 (L342.2/S278.2) > R1a1a1b2a1a (L657/S347)

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

parasar
08-16-2013, 05:50 PM
L657 "Eastern sub-branch" and the L644 "Northwestern-1" are
1) the oldest subclades, and
2) both over 4000 ybp.
3) The labels to indicate a complete bi-polar nature in terms of geography.
4) They are split away from each other on early branching of the R1a tree.

At the same time we have CTS11962 "Central European" and Z287 "Old Scandianavian" as
5) being old too, about 4000 ybp,
6) but since they fall under Z93 they are both more closely related to L657 "Eastern sub-branch" than they are to L644 "Northwestern-1".

L657 "Eastern sub-branch" and the L644 "Northwestern-1" are
1) the oldest subclades, and - Yes as per the calculated numbers.
2) both over 4000 ybp. - Yes
3) The labels to indicate a complete bi-polar nature in terms of geography. - Yes, for the most part.
4) They are split away from each other on early branching of the R1a tree. Yes, very early.

At the same time we have CTS11962 "Central European" and Z287 "Old Scandianavian" as
5) being old too, about 4000 ybp, - Yes.
6) but since they fall under Z93 they are both more closely related to L657 "Eastern sub-branch" than they are to L644 "Northwestern-1". - They don't fall under Z93, but a parallel branch Z283, but yes they are both closer to L657 in the sense of common ancestry than to L664.

Humanist
08-16-2013, 06:29 PM
This tree may be clearer.

616

Hi Jean. I know you did not create the tree, so I am only quoting your post for the purpose of including the tree.

Just wanted to make the comment that the purported age of Z93 in this tree (~5500 years), and in the tree posted by parasar (6000+ years), strike me as a bit too ancient. Even if the Z93 dates are accurate (which, of course, remains a possibility), I have a hard time reconciling the Z2121/Z2124 date for Arabs (~5000 years), and R1a's distribution among several of the "minority" populations of the Near East.

newtoboard
08-16-2013, 06:44 PM
Hi Jean. I know you did not create the tree, so I am only quoting your post for the purpose of including the tree.

Just wanted to make the comment that the purported age of Z93 in this tree (~5500 years), and in the tree posted by parasar (6000+ years), strike me as a bit too ancient. Even if the Z93 dates are accurate (which, of course, remains a possibility), I have a hard time reconciling the Z2121/Z2124 date for Arabs (~5000 years), and R1a's distribution among several of the "minority" populations of the Near East.

The Z93+ dates look like they could be accurate but the dating of Z2124 for Arabs is likely not. Arab R1a likely comes from the Northern Persian Gulf sometime after the Bronze Age.

newtoboard
08-16-2013, 06:46 PM
Igor calculated the age of L657 to be ~4500 years. Please see the calculated bars only (the circles are placed without calculations). Z93 is at least as old as L657, though I think Z93 age is about thrice that.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=574&d=1374774319

Z93+ is not three times as old as L657+. Z93+ is 13,500 years old in your opinion?

parasar
08-16-2013, 07:10 PM
Z93+ is not three times as old as L657+. Z93+ is 13,500 years old in your opinion?

Thrice the age calculated for L657 by Igor, not necessarily thrice L657's age.
Otherwise Metspalu would have caught Z93's movement in the autosomal signatures. The other possibility, though I doubt it, would be that it is very young and perhaps correlates to Metspalu's young 'European' k4. We should soon have better estimates from SNP counts (1 to 0.5/generation) as Full Genomes tests for Z2122, Z2123, and L657 should be available in the near future.

Humanist
08-16-2013, 07:29 PM
Thrice the age calculated for L657 by Igor, not necessarily thrice L657's age.
Otherwise Metspalu would have caught Z93's movement in the autosomal signatures. The other possibility, though I doubt it, would be that it is very young and perhaps correlates to Metspalu's young 'European' k4. We should soon have better estimates from SNP counts (1 to 0.5/generation) as Full Genomes tests for Z2122, Z2123, and L657 should be available in the near future.

Out of curiosity (with the questions regarding Y-STR data reliability noted), what sort of GDs do we get between "distant" Z93 men tested through 111 markers?

parasar
08-16-2013, 09:50 PM
Out of curiosity (with the questions regarding Y-STR data reliability noted), what sort of GDs do we get between "distant" Z93 men tested through 111 markers?
Not fully certain.
From me (L657) the farthest L657 is 51 and farthest Z93 is 52 with the max among tested Z93s I believe is 60 or 61.

Humanist
08-16-2013, 10:04 PM
Not fully certain.
From me (L657) the farthest L657 is 51 and farthest Z93 is 52 with the max among tested Z93s I believe is 60 or 61.

OK. Thank you. That is quite significant, and not contrary to the age possibilities previously referred to.

T101
08-17-2013, 01:05 AM
I have a hard time reconciling the Z2121/Z2124 date for Arabs (~5000 years)

Yes, it's far too old for Z2124. That would push it far beyond Sintashta and Poltavka and into the Yamnaya horizon, which would create many problems to get around. In all likelyhood Z2124 does not arrive in the Middle East until the Mitanni (1500-1000 BCE) and the Proto-Iranians (1400-1000BCE), for which the Arab TMRCA is probably only in the range of 1500 +/- 300 ybp. We just have to be patient and wait for more and better testing. As Parasar mentions "Full Genomes tests for Z2122, Z2123, and L657 should be available in the near future."

Jean M
08-17-2013, 09:33 AM
You are right. The Bashkirs tested by Lobov 2009 actually had more R1b-M269 (34%) than R1b -M73 (13%), and that M269 may well have been L23.

Just a note for the record that Myres 2010, supplementary table 4 includes Bashkirs and confirms that their R1b-M269 is mainly L23.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 02:29 PM
Does anyone have any idea what haplogroups were present in the Tarim first? Could typical farming lineages such as J2a, G2a, E1b, L, R2 have been there before R1a and R1b? Or did these arrive in the Tarim with BMAC farmers, Indo-Iranian speakers or the Silk Road? There seems to be a lot of Z93+ in the Tarim right? i find it hard to believe Sogdians and Saka speakers made such an impact especially since Sogdians were just merchants and the Saka only lived in the mountains on the edge of the Tarim.

DMXX
08-17-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm guessing the generic Central Asian lineages (J2a, G, R2a, some L) entered the Tarim first through the Sakas who entered the Tarim ~900 B.C. through the Pamirs (SW). Anthropologists described the Saka as belonging to a Mediterranean type, in contrast to the predominantly proto-Europid type of Afanasievo. As that same Y-DNA "package" is seen in most Pamiri villages, I consider this a fairly educated guess.

Based on the Xiaohe cemetery (~2000 B.C), it's fair to presume Y-DNA R1a was present in the Tarim before the above made an appearance.

It'd be very difficult to determine what happened based on modern haplotypes/subclades alone because of all the back and forths, particularly through the Silk Road, which led to additional layers of Central/West Asian Y-DNA in the region, which would alter the MRCA calculations that might be carried out.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm guessing the generic Central Asian lineages (J2a, G, R2a, some L) entered the Tarim first through the Sakas who entered the Tarim ~900 B.C. through the Pamirs (SW). Anthropologists described the Saka as belonging to a Mediterranean type, in contrast to the predominantly proto-Europid type of Afanasievo. As that same Y-DNA "package" is seen in most Pamiri villages, I consider this a fairly educated guess.

Based on the Xiaohe cemetery (~2000 B.C), it's fair to presume Y-DNA R1a was present in the Tarim before the above made an appearance.

It'd be very difficult to determine what happened based on modern haplotypes/subclades alone because of all the back and forths, particularly through the Silk Road, which led to additional layers of Central/West Asian Y-DNA in the region, which would alter the MRCA calculations that might be carried out.

Isn't it also possible that Proto Tocharians passed through the Pamirs before entering the Tarim? I think I remember reading that oasis farming which the Tocharians practiced in the Tarim originated in Central Asia and that Tocharian might have had loan words from the BMAC language for agriculture related terms.

The wikipedia article on Afanasevo states:




The culture became known from excavations in the Minusinsk area of the Krasnoyarsk Krai, southern Siberia, but the culture was also widespread in western Mongolia, northern Xinjiang, and eastern and central Kazakhstan, with connections or extensions in Tajikistan and the Aral area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasevo_culture

When do you think M73 and L23 (as well as more upstream R1b) entered the Tarim?

I still think Tocharians were Z93+ because if they weren't then it seems like Uyghurs have very little ancestry from them and most of it is from Sogdians and the Saka. That seems hard to believe given they are more West Eurasian than even Uzbeks and Turkmens.

I'm confused on the anthropology aspect of this. Don't Northern Europid phenotypes such as Nordid, Pontid and Atlantid fall into Mediterranean category as well? While Proto-Europid is reserved for Cromagnoid derived types phenotypes which resemble the Paleolithic people of Europe? What was the Andronovo type like?

DMXX
08-17-2013, 04:12 PM
Isn't it also possible that Proto Tocharians passed through the Pamirs before entering the Tarim? I think I remember reading that oasis farming which the Tocharians practiced in the Tarim originated in Central Asia and that Tocharian might have had loan words from the BMAC language for agriculture related terms.


I don't think Tocharian entered from the Pamirs. I also don't know of any BMAC words in the Tocharian lexicon. Instead, what we see are varying layers of Iranic words specifically concerning agriculture and irrigation. This to me suggests there was indeed interaction between the early (not proto) Tocharians and people en route later on, but it didn't involve South-Central Asia. This also supports the proto-Tocharians descending from Afanasievo.



When do you think M73 and L23 (as well as more upstream R1b) entered the Tarim?


I currently don't have an opinion on this.



I still think Tocharians were Z93+ because if they weren't then it seems like Uyghurs have very little ancestry from them and most of it is from Sogdians and the Saka. That seems hard to believe given they are more West Eurasian than even Uzbeks and Turkmens.

I'm confused on the anthropology aspect of this. Don't Northern Europid phenotypes such as Nordid, Pontid and Atlantid fall into Mediterranean category as well? While Proto-Europid is reserved for Cromagnoid derived types phenotypes which resemble the Paleolithic people of Europe? What was the Andronovo type like?

I believe the Chinese anthropologists who examined the skeletal remains around the Tarim used Soviet classifications, which I'm not familiar with. It should be noted the Afanasievo skeletons formed a (very weak) cluster with remains further west on the steppes.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 04:45 PM
I don't think Tocharian entered from the Pamirs. I also don't know of any BMAC words in the Tocharian lexicon. Instead, what we see are varying layers of Iranic words specifically concerning agriculture and irrigation. This to me suggests there was indeed interaction between the early (not proto) Tocharians and people en route later on, but it didn't involve South-Central Asia. This also supports the proto-Tocharians descending from Afanasievo.



I currently don't have an opinion on this.



I believe the Chinese anthropologists who examined the skeletal remains around the Tarim used Soviet classifications, which I'm not familiar with. It should be noted the Afanasievo skeletons formed a (very weak) cluster with remains further west on the steppes.

Any opinion on Afanasevo/Tocharian R1a and modern Uyghur R1a?

I wonder who inhabited Dzungaria at the time Tocharian was spoken in the Tarim. Maybe that is where Tocharians came into contact with early Iranian speakers and where the Iranic loan words in Tocharian for agriculture related terms comes from.

DMXX
08-17-2013, 04:48 PM
Any opinion on Afanasevo/Tocharian R1a and modern Uyghur R1a?

I wonder who inhabited Dzungaria at the time Tocharian was spoken in the Tarim. Maybe that is when Tocharians came into contact with early Iranian speakers.

I'd presume Uyghur R1a is both Afanasievo and Andronovo derived. The proportions aren't worth speculating over due to the diverse history of Uyghurs and the region itself.

Again, going by known archaeology, I'd presume the semi-pastoralists living in the Dzungarian basin were Andronovo-derived Iranic speakers up to a point, with Altaic speakers slowly expanding westwards later.

Silesian
08-17-2013, 04:55 PM
Does anyone have an idea how genetic drift explains the low ydna R1a of the Ossets[Ossetians IE (Iranian, NE) 47 42.6[25]472.1%[25]Rosser et al. (2000) ?
Rough location " M" region on map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/ScythianGroups.png
For example in the Grugni study cited by wiki R1a/Gilaki 9.4%
Genetically, the Gilaks display a high frequency of Y-DNA haplogroups R1a1a, J2a, J1, and G2a3b.[4]
^ Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B, Parolo S, Al-Zahery N, et al. (2012) Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252.

While the in the same Grugni study Assyrians{Semitic } have 10.3% ydna R1a M-198 5.1% R1* and 2.6% R* or almost 3X the amount found by Rosser et al 2000 in Ossets.
The data set further South in the Arabian Peninsula 615N shows R1a1 M420,M17,M198,M204,M458= 6.31%
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 05:01 PM
I'd presume Uyghur R1a is both Afanasievo and Andronovo derived. The proportions aren't worth speculating over due to the diverse history of Uyghurs and the region itself.

Again, going by known archaeology, I'd presume the semi-pastoralists living in the Dzungarian basin were Andronovo-derived Iranic speakers up to a point, with Altaic speakers slowly expanding westwards later.

I wonder if the Andronovo derived R1a among Uyghyrs derives directly from Iranic speakers or through an R1a element among early Altaic speakers.

I'm not aware of non Z93+ lineages among Uyghurs so maybe Afanasevo was Z93+. What do you think? If that is true so much for R1a being linked only to Satem languages when you have speakers of one of the earliest Centum languages carrying the same lineage as the speakers of the most Satemized language group (Indo-Iranian). I remember Jean M saying that Tocharians made their journey east from the steppe. If Afanasevo does turn out to be Z93+ then it might confirm the Z93+ and Z283+ division being a steppe/forest steppe one rather than an Asian/European division or West/East division. Michal's mention of Z93* being a small element among Proto Greek and Proto Armenian speakers who likely originated in Western Yamnaya seems to support that too.

DMXX
08-17-2013, 05:03 PM
The Ossetians live much further south than archaeological zone "M" on that map. They are located on the mottled grey area on either side of the blue line immediately below "M" (Russian-Georgian border).



I'm not aware of non Z93+ lineages among Uyghurs so maybe Afanasevo was Z93+. What do you think?


I think most of the Y-DNA R1a in ancient Central Asia will be Z93+, as is the case now.

Silesian
08-17-2013, 05:11 PM
Does anyone know the R1a- Z93 markers found in Jewish/Assyrian/Bashkir-Turks/ Arabs in Iraq and Arabian Peninsula? What is the age of these groups did they migrate from the South Arabia to the Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a regions? Has anyone done a autosomal profile on the R1a found in Assyrians 10.3%[Grugni sample used for Gilaki stats R1a} what is there Northern Component?

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 05:14 PM
Does anyone know the R1a- Z93 markers found in Jewish/Assyrian/Bashkir-Turks/ Arabs in Iraq and Arabian Peninsula? What is the age of these groups did they migrate from the South Arabia to the Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a regions?

The R1a-Z93+ among Semitic/Turkic speakers is from Indo-Iranian speakers and not the other way around.

Silesian
08-17-2013, 05:17 PM
The R1a-Z93+ among Semitic/Turkic speakers is from Indo-Iranian speakers and not the other way around.

Can you cite a line of the snp's to back your assertion from ancient R1a samples from Arabia or Ancient Assyria, or the sample found on the Steppe or from the Ossets?


The Ossetians (Ossetian: ирæттæ, irættæ) are an Iranian ethnic group of the Caucasus Mountains, indigenous to the region known as Ossetia

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 05:31 PM
Can you cite a line of the snp's to back your assertion from ancient R1a samples from Arabia or Ancient Assyria, or the sample found on the Steppe or from the Ossets?

Well for one Z93+ and Z283+ both descend from Z645*. Given Z283+ distribution is primarily Central/Northern/Eastern European why would Z93+ originate in Arabia? Nothing would account for Z93+ distribution as well as an origin in the South Urals or Eastern Steppe. Not to mention there has been plenty of R1a found in ancient samples of Andronovo as well as related cultures in South Siberia such as the Tagar culture. The STR diversity of Z93+ lies in the Indus Valley suggesting multiple waves of migration. There is nothing which would support multiples waves of migration from Assyria or Arabia to the Indus Valley especially given the lack of lineages typical of Assyrians and Arabs, in the Indus Valley such as R1b and J1 as well as SW Asian and Mediterranian admixture. The frequency of R1a among Assyrians is closer to 2% than 10% from Humanist's posts. Plus R1a shows somewhat of a correlation to the Northern European component. Much of Arabian R1a looks to be Z2123+ or L657+. Z2123+ is downstream of Z2124+ which probably originated in Central Asia. Z2124* has shown up in Central Asia.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 05:41 PM
The Ossetians live much further south than archaeological zone "M" on that map. They are located on the mottled grey area on either side of the blue line immediately below "M" (Russian-Georgian border).



I think most of the Y-DNA R1a in ancient Central Asia will be Z93+, as is the case now.

Is this the result of a bottleneck though? I discussed this with Michal and that is what we both thought. I would have thought some Z283+ or Z280+ from Abashevo would have made its way to Andronovo. But if Tocharian R1a ends up being Z93+ then I would doubt the same bottleneck occurred twice.

Humanist
08-17-2013, 05:46 PM
Has anyone done a autosomal profile on the R1a found in Assyrians 10.3%[Grugni sample used for Gilaki stats R1a} what is there Northern Component?

My father is from Rasht, Gilan Province, Iran. My mother is from Tehran, Iran. The Tehran population is not that old. However, Assyrians have been in NW Iran for at least a millennium.

My Dodecad Globe 13 results are below, compared to the Iranian Dodecad population. Unless those R1a Assyrians are not Assyrians (i.e. Iranian converts to the Church), it is highly unlikely that their values will differ significantly from my values.


HUM IRN
0.5 1.9 Siberian
0.0 0.2 Amerindian
0.0 0.0 West_African
0.0 0.0 Palaeo_African
24.3 16.9 Southwest_Asian
0.0 0.5 East_Asian
25.6 19.2 Mediterranean
0.0 0.2 Australasian
0.0 0.9 Arctic
47.0 48.4 West_Asian
0.0 5.3 North_European <--
2.6 6.3 South_Asian
0.0 0.4 East_African

Silesian
08-17-2013, 05:50 PM
Well for one Z93+ and Z283+ both descend from Z645*. Given Z283+ distribution is primarily Central/Northern/Eastern European why would Z93+ originate in Arabia?

So you can prove without a shadow of doubt that Z93 did not originate from the Arabian peninsula or ancient Assyrian region, because Z283 exists in Central/Northern/Eastern Europe, but has not been found in Ossets at any elevated levels above noise ?


Not to mention there has been plenty of R1a found in ancient samples of Andronovo as well as related cultures in South Siberia such as the Tagar culture.
What are the specific downstream Z645* snps that were found in all the ancient Steppe samples?
So in effect the age of R1a in the Indus valley is older than in Saudi Arabia and the samples found in Iraqi Assyrians? How do you know this without having to provide any ancient samples; str variance, hypothetical split 283-Z93 in Eastern Europe ?



Much of Arabian R1a looks to be Z2123+ or L657+. Z2123+ is downstream of Z2124+ which probably originated in Central Asia. Z2124* has shown up in Central Asia.

Looks to be or actually is?. You are saying that Arab R1a is younger than Central/Northern/Eastern Europe where Z93 parted with Z283?

Silesian
08-17-2013, 06:04 PM
My father is from Rasht, Gilan Province, Iran. My mother is from Tehran, Iran. The Tehran population is not that old. However, Assyrians have been in NW Iran for at least a millennium.

Gilan province adjacent to Azeri/Assyrians is also the area of the ancient Medes. Who spoke Ancient Western Iranian.

Median is "presumably"[4] a substrate of Old Persian. The Median element is readily identifiable because it did not share in the developments that were particular to Old Persian. Median forms "are found only in personal or geographical names [...] and some are typically from religious vocabulary and so could in principle also be influenced by Avestan."


Avestan /əˈvɛstən/,[1] formerly also known as "Zend" or "Old Bactrian", is an East Iranian language known only from its use as the language of Zoroastrian scripture,


David Neil MacKenzie, an authority of Kurdish language, thought that the Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language, while the Kurdish people speak a southwestern Iranian language.[57] The Kurdologist Martin van Bruinessen argues against the attempt to take Medes as ancestors of the Kurds.[58] Modern scholars who consider central Iranian dialects, mainly those of Kashan area, and Tati of Tehran area as the only direct offshoots of the Median language.[64]


Which is also used by the Balochi,


The Baloch people mainly speak Balochi language which itself is a branch of the Iranian languages, and more specifically of the Northwestern Iranian languages

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 06:25 PM
So you can prove without a shadow of doubt that Z93 did not originate from the Arabian peninsula or ancient Assyrian region, because Z283 exists in Central/Northern/Eastern Europe, but has not been found in Ossets at any elevated levels above noise ?


What are the specific downstream Z645* snps that were found in all the ancient Steppe samples?
So in effect the age of R1a in the Indus valley is older than in Saudi Arabia and the samples found in Iraqi Assyrians? How do you know this without having to provide any ancient samples; str variance, hypothetical split 283-Z93 in Eastern Europe ?




Looks to be or actually is?. You are saying that Arab R1a is younger than Central/Northern/Eastern Europe where Z93 parted with Z283?

Ossetians are one tiny ethnic group which have likely undergone multiple bottlenecks. I'm not even sure modern Ossetians represent the ancient Ossetians. Part of the territory of South Ossetia is outside the territory of the ancient Kingdom of Alania. The Mongols destroyed the Kingdom of Alania and who knows is there was more R1a there before that. Plus there are plenty of ethnic groups who speak a language without having much ancestry from the original speakers of that language so I'm not going to speculate on what ancient Indo-Iranians carried based on just Ossetians. They are the most recent population to switch to an Indo-Iranian language anyways (even later than populations in South India, Bengal, Sri Lanka and the Maldives) so I have no idea why their Y-DNA is more important than the fact that just about every other Indo-Iranian ethnic group does indeed carry R1a-Z93+ at somewhat high frequencies as well as the fact that Z93+ is present in areas formerly speaking Indo-Iranian languages. And R1a was present in cultures that likely spoke Proto Indo-Iranian (Andronovo) or Scythian (Tagar).

I don't know what the steppe samples carried but it was likely Z93+ and maybe some Z280+. It was likely Z645+ given that Z645+ makes up more than 99% of the R1a in the world and the only Z645- lineages tend to be found in NW Europe and Scandinavia.

Much of Arab R1a is Z2123+ and L657+ so far. If they brought Z93+ to the rest of Asia why isn't there any J1 or SW Asian admixture in the Indus Valley? I believe the high STR diversity of R1a in the Indus Valley has already been noted by Polako as well as some old papers. It was the reason people believed R1a originated there before SNP testing showed higher diversity in Central-Eastern Europe. Also where is the Z93* among Arabs?

Humanist
08-17-2013, 06:32 PM
Gilan province adjacent to Azeri/Assyrians is also the area of the ancient Medes. Who spoke Ancient Western Iranian.


David Neil MacKenzie, an authority of Kurdish language, thought that the Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language, while the Kurdish people speak a southwestern Iranian language.[57] The Kurdologist Martin van Bruinessen argues against the attempt to take Medes as ancestors of the Kurds.[58] Modern scholars who consider central Iranian dialects, mainly those of Kashan area, and Tati of Tehran area as the only direct offshoots of the Median language.[64]

Which is also used by the Balochi,


The Baloch people mainly speak Balochi language which itself is a branch of the Iranian languages, and more specifically of the Northwestern Iranian languages

Thank you for the bits regarding Iranian languages. And although there is ample data to support Indo-Iranian influences on my language, it (Sureth) is a Semitic language. I posted the below clip a few times on another forum.

OT

THE LANGUAGE OF THE MODERN ASSYRIANS AND ITS HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
Prof. Geoffrey Khan Lecture
May 10, 2012


Such linguistic convergence must have arisen through bilingualism. Indicating that the ancestors of the speakers of the modern Assyrian dialects, in the ancient period, must have spoken Akkadian...

To sum up, the spoken Assyrian dialects are a remarkable heritage, with considerable historical depth, having roots in the period of the ancient Assyrians...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kpOHmt4Pg

Silesian
08-17-2013, 07:03 PM
Ossetians are one tiny ethnic group which have likely undergone multiple bottlenecks.

That maybe so. That is not what I'm looking at when comparing R1a snps that are connected to Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a to a East Iranian speaking tribe Alans.


I'm not even sure modern Ossetians represent the ancient Ossetians.

Is this speculation or has there been a scientific paper proving Ossets are not related to Iranian tribe called Alans ?



Part of the territory of South Ossetia is outside the territory of the ancient Kingdom of Alania.

Of course we are talking about a region. P.I.E in theory


The Mongols destroyed the Kingdom of Alania and who knows is there was more R1a there before that.

Exactly that is why it is interesting to zero in on the specific R1a snps the Alans carried, unless you assert that all R1a Alans were exterminated or R1a Alans did not derive from PIE region?


Plus there are plenty of ethnic groups who speak a language without having much ancestry from the original speakers of that language so I'm not going to speculate on what ancient Indo-Iranians carried based on just Ossetians.

Exactly, for example Brahui 39% R1a Dravidian language.

There is no consensus as to whether Brahui is a relatively recent language introduced into Balochistan or remnant of an older widespread Dravidian language family. Some scholars see it as a recent migrant language to its present region. They postulate, that Brahui could only have migrated to Balochistan from central India after 1000 CE. The absence of any older Iranian (Avestan) loanwords in Brahui supports this hypothesis.




They are the most recent population to switch to an Indo-Iranian language anyways (even later than populations in South India, Bengal, Sri Lanka and the Maldives) so I have no idea why their Y-DNA is more important than the fact that just about every other Indo-Iranian ethnic group does indeed carry R1a-Z93+ at somewhat high frequencies as well as the fact that Z93+ is present in areas formerly speaking Indo-Iranian languages. And R1a was present in cultures that likely spoke Proto Indo-Iranian (Andronovo) or Scythian (Tagar).

According to some they {Alani}are closer to P.I.E homeland {Eastern Europe-Steppe region}than Bengali's or Sri Lankans.





Also where is the Z93* among Arabs?

I don't know I was inquiring Ancient steppe samples compared to ancient Assyrian and Arabic samples. Living samples do not count, do to possible genetic drift issues, they have to be a couple of thousand years old, tested. So far no answer just generaliztions not any real specific snps showing one way or another.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 07:26 PM
That maybe so. That is not what I'm looking at when comparing R1a snps that are connected to Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a to a East Iranian speaking tribe Alans.


Is this speculation or has there been a scientific paper proving Ossets are not related to Iranian tribe called Alans ?




Of course we are talking about a region. P.I.E in theory



Exactly that is why it is interesting to zero in on the specific R1a snps the Alans carried, unless you assert that all R1a Alans were exterminated or R1a Alans did not derive from PIE region?



Exactly, for example Brahui 39% R1a Dravidian language.





According to some they {Alani}are closer to P.I.E homeland {Eastern Europe-Steppe region}than Bengali's or Sri Lankans.






I don't know I was inquiring Ancient steppe samples compared to ancient Assyrian and Arabic samples. Living samples do not count do to genetic drift issues, they have to be a couple of thousand years old, tested. So far no answer just generaliztions not any real specific snps showing one way or another.

The Alans likely carried Z93+. Just like Kazakhs and Bashkirs who actually live near where the ancient Scythian and Alan tribes originated. European Scythians might have had European Z283+ lineages in addition to Z93+.

Ossetians are not Alans so it is irrelevant that they are closer to the Caucasus. They are not a good representation of the ancient Alans as their autosomal admixture shows. Also David has shown multiple times there is no genetic cline between the Caucasus and Eastern Europe anyways. My point about Bengalis and Sri Lankans was actually to highlight that Ossetians became Indo-Iranian speaking even later than such populations so far away from the PIE homeland so there is no reason to use them as a representation of ancient Indo-Iranians. R1a-Z93+ exists as far as Bengal and Sri Lanka and among all Indo-Iranian speaking groups for the most part. Ossetians are the outlier not every other Indo-Iranian speaking group. It is pretty silly to say that R1a-Z93+ is the result of recent Arab or Assyrian admixture or that R1a got there from the Arabian peninsula but somehow is only present in the Arabian peninsula, Mesopotamia and the Levant at frequencies below 10%.

I'm curious as to what information you have provided to support R1a moving from Arabia or Assyria to the South Urals. There are ancient Andronovo and Tagar R1a samples. Haven't seen anything that indicates R1a was present in Assyria or Arabia prior to R1a being present in Andronovo/Tagar.

newtoboard
08-17-2013, 07:41 PM
That's a highly inflated date for the Afansievo culture. You do know the earliest radiocarbon dates for Afansievo have been thrown out. The earliest reliable date maybe 3300 BCE (Anthony) but a even later date is still more plausible.

What thread? What site? What tree? Nonsense, R1a Z645 could fit easily into Afansievo as could Z93, (whose age could potentially be far older than 3500 BCE). Even Z94 is a possibility with an estimated age ranging above 3000BCE (Rozhanskii)

The Xiahoe tomb complex showed R1a in the Tarim. It was there at an early date and likely the first lineage there. The West Eurasian mtdna belonged mostly to H and K which makes it unlikely this R1a was Andronovo derived. Given the lack of Z93- lineages in Asia I would say Afanasevo likely was Z93+. That would be interesting. You would have speakers of one of the earliest Centum languages carrying the same lineage as speakers of one of the most Satemized language groups (Indo-Iranians). If the Tocharians did actually migrate east from the steppe it might also make the Z93+/Z283+ division a steppe-forest steppe division rather than an European-Asian division. What do you think?

Silesian
08-17-2013, 07:48 PM
The Alans likely carried Z93+. Just like Kazakhs and Bashkirs who actually live near where the ancient Scythian and Alan tribes originated. European Scythians might have had European Z283+ lineages in addition to Z93+.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/ScythianGroups.png

In what areas shaded did the split happen?Can you show any scientific study with above noise R1a 93-283 50/50 split or 70-30 split between the 2 branches of R1a one carried by Alans 93+ East Iranian language and 280+ Balto Slavic language?

parasar
08-17-2013, 11:09 PM
...
Looks to be or actually is?. You are saying that Arab R1a is younger than Central/Northern/Eastern Europe where Z93 parted with Z283?

At present Arab R1a from STR calculations is far older than Central Asian. What he is saying is that if ["probably"] Z2124 was born in Central Asia then by definition the Arab R1a, which is almost all Z2123+ or L657+, has to be descended from the Central Asian one.

Humanist
08-18-2013, 06:03 AM
Assyrians have been in NW Iran for at least a millennium. How do you know that?

OK. This thread is going a bit off course, but you asked a question, so I will reply:

Fox (US) and Press TV (Iran) respectively. They are less cautious with their estimates regarding the Assyrian presence in Iran.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1aopdeswGc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_c3B3ojbZ8


Wikipedia

"Ecclesiastical provinces of the Church of the East in the 10th century"

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/church_of_the_east.jpg

Humanist
08-18-2013, 07:04 AM
Church of the East does not equate to Assyrian though, many ethnic Iranians were part of that Church during ancient and medieval times. Even though today most of its followers are Assyrians...

If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to open a thread in the appropriate section. I will not clutter this thread any further, with a continued discussion regarding the Church of the East.

newtoboard
08-18-2013, 02:35 PM
At present Arab R1a from STR calculations is far older than Central Asian. What he is saying is that if ["probably"] Z2124 was born in Central Asia then by definition the Arab R1a, which is almost all Z2123+ or L657+, has to be descended from the Central Asian one.

Can you post where it has been shown that Arab R1a is older than Central Asian R1a?

parasar
08-18-2013, 06:10 PM
Can you post where it has been shown that Arab R1a is older than Central Asian R1a?

Central Asia:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419996/table/TB5/

Arabs:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n3/fig_tab/5201934t3.html#figure-title

For non-sampled data please take a look at FTDNA links.
Eg. R1a1a http://www.familytreedna.com/public/kirgiz/default.aspx?section=yresults All haplotypes are close.
vs. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults Lots of variety

Edit:
Perhaps the bulk of Kirgiz fall under one subclade:

On August 8, FTDNA completed the WTY of kit 284711 of Kyrgyzstan, a member of the Kyrgyz cluster that also includes 186386, 179759, and 111287.

The WTY discovered one brand-new SNP, L1497. It is already available for individual order. It was found using the primers for the V9 SNP. I have verified from chromats that 184336 (Qatar, Z2124+ Z2122- Z2123-) and N77532 (India, Z2123+) have the ancestral allele at L1497 (i.e., they are L1497- ).

The location of L1497 is 6923649 in b36, which converts to 6863649 in b37.
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=1227#unread

newtoboard
08-18-2013, 06:24 PM
Central Asia:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419996/table/TB5/

Arabs:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n3/fig_tab/5201934t3.html#figure-title

For non-sampled data please take a look at FTDNA links.
Eg. R1a1a http://www.familytreedna.com/public/kirgiz/default.aspx?section=yresults All haplotypes are close.
vs. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults Lots of variety


All that shows is that the Kygryz , who have R1a at frequencies of over 70%, have had an R1a bottleneck. How does that prove Arab R1a is older than all Central Asian R1a? Is there anything that shows more STR variance for Arab R1a compared to other Central Asian groups? How would greater STR variance show that R1a is older in Arabia compared to Central Asia?

parasar
08-18-2013, 06:48 PM
All that shows is that the Kygryz , who have R1a at frequencies of over 70%, have had an R1a bottleneck. How does that prove Arab R1a is older than all Central Asian R1a? Is there anything that shows more STR diversity for Arab R1a compared to other Central Asian groups? Since when does more STR diversity mean a lineage is older in a certain place? All the R1a in South Asia comes from Central Asia despite greater STR variance in the Indus Valley.

First, you have to define what is all of Central Asia - to me Central Asia is the land beyond Afghanistan and includes modern Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.
Essentially the darkest portion in the map below:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Central_Asia_world_region2.png

We can only go by what we have. If the current data is showing low diversity due to bottleneck that may well be the case. We also know that that that same low diversity has been present from Andronovo to the present. The Kirgiz data is very similar.

All the ancient S. Siberians look to be derivatives of: 16, 11/14, 13, 31, 24, 11, 11, 13, 14, 11, 10, 20, 16, 15, 23, 12

Rearranging in FTDNA order (with a couple of interpolations) we get:

393, 390, 19, 391, 385, 426, 388, 439, 389i, 392, 389ii, 458...437...448...GATA...456...438...635

13, 24, 16, 11, 11/14, 12, 12, 10, 13, 11, 31, 15...14...20...12...16...11...23

I this is likely Z93+L657- where this type is common.

newtoboard
08-18-2013, 06:58 PM
First, you have to define what is all of Central Asia - to me Central Asia is the land beyond Afghanistan and includes modern Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.
Essentially the darkest portion in the map below:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Central_Asia_world_region2.png

We can only go by what we have. If the current data is showing low diversity due to bottleneck that may well be the case. We also know that that that same low diversity has been present from Andronovo to the present. The Kirgiz data is very similar.

All the ancient S. Siberians look to be derivatives of: 16, 11/14, 13, 31, 24, 11, 11, 13, 14, 11, 10, 20, 16, 15, 23, 12

Rearranging in FTDNA order (with a couple of interpolations) we get:

393, 390, 19, 391, 385, 426, 388, 439, 389i, 392, 389ii, 458...437...448...GATA...456...438...635

13, 24, 16, 11, 11/14, 12, 12, 10, 13, 11, 31, 15...14...20...12...16...11...23

I this is likely Z93+L657- where this type is common.

Why wouldn't you include Kazakhstan in Central Asia? My point was that the Kyrgyz are the Central Asians who have most been affected by bottleneck. It would make more sense to compare the STR variance of Arab R1a to Tajik, Turkmen and Uzbek R1a. Either way, Arab R1a is mostly Z2123+ and L657+. While Central Asians R1a is does have R1a-Z2124+ and R1a-L657- lineages. It seems R1a migrated North to South based on that. There is no ancient movement that would account for R1a-Z93+ coming from the Arabian peninsula and making its way to Central and South Asia.

parasar
08-18-2013, 08:38 PM
Why wouldn't you include Kazakhstan in Central Asia? My point was that the Kyrgyz are the Central Asians who have most been affected by bottleneck. It would make more sense to compare the STR variance of Arab R1a to Tajik, Turkmen and Uzbek R1a. Either way, Arab R1a is mostly Z2123+ and L657+. While Central Asians R1a is does have R1a-Z2124+ and R1a-L657- lineages. It seems R1a migrated North to South based on that. There is no ancient movement that would account for R1a-Z93+ coming from the Arabian peninsula and making its way to Central and South Asia.

Some do include Kazakhstan in Central Asia. I don't as that region is more Inner Asia to me - more akin to say Mongolia. But as far as R1a1 is concerned, their inclusion will make minimal difference.
You can compare Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek and Kazakh too. The Tajik were indeed present in the table I had referenced above.
The Kazakh R1a1 can be seen here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/alash/default.aspx?section=yresults They show low STR diversity too - again perhaps due to bottlenecks.

SNP diversity though is higher among the Uzbeks and Mongols who show the presence of Z283 including M458 which completely vanishes in Afghanistan.
http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/New_Y_Chromosome_Binary_Markers_Improve_Phylogenet ic_Resolution_Within_Haplogroup_R1a1.pdf
"R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan" http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288