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Jean M
07-24-2015, 09:56 AM
I am starting a new thread for my new book, as the last thread had to be closed.

I just want to give out the latest information from my publisher. Blood of the Celts will be released in eBook format simultaneously with the hardback. That will be 7 September 2015 in the UK and 6 October 2015 in the US.

Pre-order sales have been high. Amazon.com has it labelled today as the #1 new release in archaeology. So thank you to everyone for your confidence in the as yet unknown content. :)

Jean M
07-24-2015, 09:59 AM
A reminder of the content.

My approach is novel. I start not in prehistory, but with the earliest literature in any Celtic language, which was written in the British Isles. So the Celts tell us about themselves from the start. Then I track backwards in detective mode to uncover their deep ancestry, at which point we turn forwards again in time to follow their story right up to modern times. Chapter headings and subheadings:

Prologue
Timeline
Deduced timeline for the prehistory of the Celts
Timeline for the historic Celts
1: The voices of the Celts
Heroic ideals
Druids
Pseudo-history
Genetics: the first clues
Overview
2: The Gauls and Celtic
Chariots
Trump of war
Migration mystery
Genetics: ancient DNA
Overview
3: Bell Beakers and language
The bell-shaped pot
Way of life and death
Mobility
Genetics: Y-DNA R1b-P312
Celtic and Italic languages
Italo-Celtic
Old European IE (Alteuropäisch)
Overview
4: The Indo-European family
Indo-European homeland
From Siberia to Europe
Genetics: Mal'ta boy
Genetics: three main sources for Europeans
The Indo-European lifestyle
Indo-European dispersal
Overview
5: Stelae to Bell Beaker
People of stone
The stelae trail
Linking Stelae to Bell Beaker
The origins of Bell Beaker pottery
Bell Beaker routes and the development of Celtic
Bronze Age mobility
Genetics: R1b flows into the British Isles
Overview
6: The iron sword
Steppe nomads
Hallstatt aristocrats
Celtic caught in transition
La Tène warriors
Shape-shifting art
Oppida
Overview
7: On the move
The forces driving expansion
The surge southward
Iberia: the tangled skein
Genetics: Traces of the spread of the Gauls?
La Tène in the British Isles
Genetics: Traces of the spread of La Tène to Ireland?
Belgae in Britain
Overview
8: Celts vs Romans
Cisalpine Gauls
The struggle for Iberia
Caesar's conquest of Gaul
Britannia
Genetics: The Picts
Pagan Picts and Scots
Overview
9: Christian Celts
Ogham
Irish in Dyfed
Genetics: Déisi Mumhan
Early Christian Ireland
Genetics: The Cruthin
Anglo-Saxons and Britons
Genetics: Britons and Anglo-Saxons
Kingdoms of Wales
Britons abroad
Christian Picts and Scots
Overview
10: Loss and revival
Immigrants and emigrants medieval to modern
The dominance of English
Rediscovering a forgotten family
A passion for Celtic
Political pressures
Celtosceptism
Back to the future
Overview
Appendix: Surnames and DNA
Genetics: Irvine surname
Origins of surnames
Descendants of Brian Boru
Genetics: Descendants of Brian Boru
Royal Stewart line
Genetics: Royal Stewart
Clan MacFarlane
Genetics: MacFarlane

Notes
Bibliography

Jean M
07-24-2015, 10:08 AM
There have been queries here and on Facebook about translations. Thus far I know of none. It will depend on the willingness of non-English publishers to publish the book in translation.

Volat
07-24-2015, 10:44 AM
I am starting a new thread for my new book, as the last thread had to be closed.

I just want to give out the latest information from my publisher. Blood of the Celts will be released in eBook format simultaneously with the hardback. That will be 7 September 2015 in the UK and 6 October 2015 in the US.

Pre-order sales have been high. Amazon.com has it labelled today as the #1 new release in archaeology. So thank you to everyone for your confidence in the as yet unknown content. :)


I was considering to buy a book on the Celts for some time. I'd purchase a copy of your book. :) I also find your posts in many discussions informative each time I visit this forum.

Jessie
07-24-2015, 11:20 AM
I've just placed my order. I'm looking forward to reading it and seeing discussions on here about the book.

MT1976
07-24-2015, 12:09 PM
Congratulations Jean on what seems already a great success. I look forward to reading it.

Jean M
07-24-2015, 12:33 PM
I've just placed my order. I'm looking forward to reading it and seeing discussions on here about the book.

I think I can safely promise discussions on here. I only hope people can restrain themselves from arguing with it before they have read it! ;)

Several people here contributed to it: Richard Rocca supplied four DNA maps, three of them repeated from Ancestral Journeys, but one new. In a couple of threads here I requested ideas on the Y-DNA relationship with surnames and on R1b-DF27. It was helpful to have discussion.

cal
07-24-2015, 03:13 PM
JUST REMEMBER .THERE ARE GIVERS AND TAKERS . STAY POSITIVE . YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY . I WILL GET ONE . WILL IT COME OUT IN HARDBACK ? AND DO YOU KNOW THE PRICE RANGE ? THANK YOU . CAL

Jean M
07-24-2015, 07:49 PM
YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.

So true. So, so true. It's OK. I'm not in a bunker sewing myself a flak-jacket. I just plan to be somewhere in the sun and away from computers when it hits the shelves. After that I shall be in good shape to cope with the comeback.


WILL IT COME OUT IN HARDBACK ? AND DO YOU KNOW THE PRICE RANGE ?

Yes it is coming out first in hardback and eBook. Looks like a good deal from the Book Depository: http://www.bookdepository.com/Blood-Celts-Jean-Manco/9780500051832

cal
07-24-2015, 09:35 PM
i will visiting my daughter in henley this fall . i hope you find a place that is sunny . see said it is raining cats and dogs today in henley. thank you for the link . if it comes out in a searchable disk i will buy it also . live life -have fun - be happy . YOU EARNED IT . cal

Jean M
07-24-2015, 09:42 PM
i hope you find a place that is sunny .

Plane seat is already booked. :)

Wonder_Wall
07-28-2015, 05:35 AM
I am looking very much forward to this chapter in particular:

3: Bell Beakers and language
The bell-shaped pot
Way of life and death
Mobility
Genetics: Y-DNA R1b-P312
Celtic and Italic languages
Italo-Celtic
Old European IE (Alteuropäisch)

Best of luck with the book!

Jean M
08-26-2015, 07:26 PM
This month's Minerva magazine carries an article by me on pages 20-24: "Celtic Conundrum" with a special offer on Blood of the Celts. On page 24 is a box on the forthcoming exhibition at the British Museum, with text supplied by the museum (nothing to do with me.)

Eochaidh
08-26-2015, 08:11 PM
This month's Minerva magazine carries an article by me on pages 20-24: "Celtic Conundrum" with a special offer on Blood of the Celts. On page 24 is a box on the forthcoming exhibition at the British Museum, with text supplied by the museum (nothing to do with me.)
Jean,
Do you have any idea where Emania can be purchased? I tried some man in Germany some time ago, but nothing came of it.
Thanks

Jean M
08-26-2015, 08:12 PM
Jean,
Do you have any idea where Emania can be purchased? I tried some man in Germany some time ago, but nothing came of it.
Thanks

I have the same frustration. Can't get it in the UK.

[Added] Aha! You can get it online now: http://www.navan-research-group.org/emania.html
That sends you through to http://www.curach-bhan.com/index.php?main_page=product_bookx_info&cPath=1_54_55&products_id=348. Is that the chap in Germany that you mentioned? It is run by Daniel Büchner.

Kwheaton
08-26-2015, 09:08 PM
Jean, when asked what I wanted for my B-day earlier this month I said your new book....so I have it pre-ordered! Can't wait. In the past month solid DNA connections have been found between our L2 branch in Britain and its mainland origins likely in Flanders and west of Cologne....I ahve found the hunt quite fascinating!

Jean M
08-26-2015, 09:29 PM
In the past month solid DNA connections have been found between our L2 branch in Britain and its mainland origins likely in Flanders and west of Cologne....I ahve found the hunt quite fascinating!

Congratulations! :) It is good to see people getting somewhere with genetic genealogy.

And I hope my book lives up to expectations. A lot of it will be familiar to you already, despite my efforts not to post every little thing on this forum. :biggrin1:

Kwheaton
08-26-2015, 10:10 PM
Congratulations! :) It is good to see people getting somewhere with genetic genealogy.

And I hope my book lives up to expectations. A lot of it will be familiar to you already, despite my efforts not to post every little thing on this forum. :biggrin1:

I'm not worried Jean. As for making progress with genetic genealogy I have had very good luck with my own atDNA and have manged to confirm the vast majority of my tree. I have NO mtDNA matches. :( And I have been successful in YDNA with my husband's line in connecting branches in the USA. I have do not have a solid recent match in the UK indicating a MRCA in the last 1,000 years. However the ancient DNA component downstream from U152-L2 is proving quite lucrative and interesting likely in the 1500-2500 ybp time frame and older. So in the absence of a recent match---I'll take all the ancient ones I can get LOL!:grouphug:

Jean M
09-05-2015, 10:36 PM
The Dublin Review of Books has a long extract online from chapter 1 of Blood of the Celts: http://www.drb.ie/new-books/blood-of-the-celts

The book is due out very soon now in the UK - 7 September.

evon
09-05-2015, 10:40 PM
The Dublin Review of Books has a long extract online from chapter 1 of Blood of the Celts: http://www.drb.ie/new-books/blood-of-the-celts

The book is due out very soon now in the UK - 7 September.

They already sent mine from Bookdepository, but sadly I wont have much time to read it until December :(

MJost
09-06-2015, 12:45 AM
The Dublin Review of Books has a long extract online from chapter 1 of Blood of the Celts: http://www.drb.ie/new-books/blood-of-the-celts

The book is due out very soon now in the UK - 7 September.

My copy, here in the USA, is to ship to me and should arrive between Oct 12 - Fri, Oct 16.

MJost

Gravetto-Danubian
09-06-2015, 02:45 AM
The Dublin Review of Books has a long extract online from chapter 1 of Blood of the Celts: http://www.drb.ie/new-books/blood-of-the-celts

The book is due out very soon now in the UK - 7 September.

Is it coming to Australia/ NZ ?

Jean M
09-06-2015, 09:49 AM
Is it coming to Australia/ NZ ?

Yes indeed, with the same release date as in the UK.

The Kindle edition is on sale on Amazon Australia: http://www.amazon.com.au/Blood-Celts-New-Ancestral-Story-ebook/dp/B012STKUAU/

Readings sells the hardback with free delivery anywhere in Australia A$39.99: http://www.readings.com.au/products/19511311/blood-of-the-celts-the-new-ancestral-story

The Book Depository sells the hardback at A$30.54 or NZ$33.77 with free delivery worldwide: https://www.bookdepository.com/Blood-Celts-Jean-Manco/9780500051832

You might be more interested in the updated Ancestral Journeys though. It is wider in scope. http://www.amazon.com.au/Ancestral-Journeys-Peopling-Venturers-Vikings-ebook/dp/B014RFYP6I/

Eochaidh
09-06-2015, 04:55 PM
I have the same frustration. Can't get it in the UK.

[Added] Aha! You can get it online now: http://www.navan-research-group.org/emania.html
That sends you through to http://www.curach-bhan.com/index.php?main_page=product_bookx_info&cPath=1_54_55&products_id=348. Is that the chap in Germany that you mentioned? It is run by Daniel Büchner.
Yes, that is the place. I paid for 1 issue plus shipping to the US via PayPal and got the invoice, but nothing ever came to me. I can still log into the site, but it says I have no order history, so I will not use him again.

As much as I dislike JSTOR, it would be nice if they would use that for the old issues at least.

Thanks for your help.

Heber
09-08-2015, 10:01 AM
Received my Kindle version this morning when I woke up.
Almost choked on my Latte when I read that Celtic language moved from Britain to Iberia in the prologue..:).
Look forward to my comments when I have read a bit further.

Jean M
09-08-2015, 11:13 AM
Almost choked on my Latte when I read that Celtic language moved from Britain to Iberia in the prologue..:).

In the Prologue? You mean in the caption to illustration 1? That just refers to the Post-Roman settlement in Galicia (i.e. the Early Medieval colouring on the map in NW Spain). Prepare to be shocked later on in the text ... ;)

Kwheaton
09-09-2015, 09:55 PM
My copy, here in the USA, is to ship to me and should arrive between Oct 12 - Fri, Oct 16.

MJost

Mine is expected the same time. I am looking forward to it very much as Jean knows ;-)

Jean M
09-09-2015, 10:00 PM
Sorry you have to wait in the US. I don't know why.

Kwheaton
09-09-2015, 10:10 PM
Sorry you have to wait in the US. I don't know why.

Young, bratty offspring of the British Empire? ---:pout:

Jean M
09-09-2015, 10:35 PM
Young, bratty offspring of the British Empire?

Actually Thames and Hudson has always had one foot in New York and the other in London. That is why it was called Thames and Hudson, after the rivers of same. So I don't think a revenge is being taken for the Boston Tea Party. I suppose it some arcane publishing practice too subtle for mere authors to grasp.

Kwheaton
09-10-2015, 12:51 AM
Actually Thames and Hudson has always had one foot in New York and the other in London. That is why it was called Thames and Hudson, after the rivers of same. So I don't think a revenge is being taken for the Boston Tea Party. I suppose it some arcane publishing practice too subtle for mere authors to grasp.
I was kidding...I agree with you.

dsherry
09-10-2015, 04:51 PM
Interesting variety in Kindle pricing for the book. That can't all be VAT, can it?

local US$
.au 13.96 9.91
.com 14.99
.de 18.47 20.87
.uk 13.67 21.05

Kwheaton
09-10-2015, 07:21 PM
Interesting variety in Kindle pricing for the book. That can't all be VAT, can it?

local US$
.au 13.96 9.91
.com 14.99
.de 18.47 20.87
.uk 13.67 21.05

Seems like more than VAT at play. Can you actually purchase the various different versions no matter where you live? I am still going to be waiting as my hardback book was ordered as a b-day present!

rncambron
09-11-2015, 07:57 PM
Jean
I have read with interest and enjoyment your new publication.
Congratulations.
I think it is clear where your evidence of linkages is factual and sometimes speculative.That is not always the case in forums such as this.
My personal interest lies with R1b-L21-L1335-L1065 etc.
I was surprised you quote the much discussed SDNA linkage of L1335 with the Picts.Whether by SNP dating or STR Coalescence L1335 is 2nd Millenium BC It sits in a large Phylogenetic block with its next branching at L1065 which itself sits in a large Phylogenetic block embracing the 1st Millenium and beyond.
Based on some Welsh names appearing in the tree you ascribe L1335 as Welsh.Would not Brythonic or Mainland Britain be a safer descriptor?

The next significant branching is S744 dated to the early part of the first Millenium AD.Surely too late to be a significant component of the coalescence of the tribes of Northern Britain, subsequently described as Picts, in the face of a Roman presence on their Southern border.?

Your focus on the McFarlanes of Lennox is interesting.If you were to spend some time on the people of the area around Loch Lomond you would see a DNA remnant of the Brythonic,Scot and Pictish tribes in this area via Galbraith,Colquhoun,Buchanan,McFarlane,McGregor surnames but thank you for raising the profile of this much neglected area.

PS I have been a member here for some years but prefer to look and learn rather project personal views.I posted recently on the application of science to our hobby and received virulent abuse from someone called Rocca.I hope my genuine questions to you re your excellent publication do not excite a similar response.

Jean M
09-11-2015, 08:06 PM
Jean... I hope my genuine questions to you re your excellent publication do not excite a similar response.

I doubt if anyone will take issue with you for comments on my publications. People argue with me all the time. It is a beneficial process.

Jean M
09-11-2015, 08:10 PM
As for specifics, I shall have to remind myself of what I said. I can recall picking out the McFarlanes, partly because the name is more uncommon than some others. There was only space for a few surnames, to illustrate the general principle of surname DNA projects, and some of the problems.

Jean M
09-11-2015, 08:52 PM
My personal interest lies with R1b-L21-L1335-L1065 etc.
I was surprised you quote the much discussed SDNA linkage of L1335 with the Picts. Whether by SNP dating or STR Coalescence L1335 is 2nd Millenium BC It sits in a large Phylogenetic block with its next branching at L1065 which itself sits in a large Phylogenetic block embracing the 1st Millenium and beyond.
Based on some Welsh names appearing in the tree you ascribe L1335 as Welsh. Would not Brythonic or Mainland Britain be a safer descriptor?

Found my comment on p. 159:


Geneticist James Wilson noted in 2011 that a particular haplotype of Y-DNA R1b-L21 is not only strongly Scottish in distribution, but appears most densely in the area with Pictish symbols. Could this be a clue to Pictish ancestry? Now the cluster has been more securely identified genetically by its own marker, L1065, so we can see how it fits on to the L21 tree. ... Its parent is found in Wales. That is indeed what we would expect if L1065 reflects native Pictish ancestry, rather than the Irish who arrived in Scotland in the post-Roman period ....

I can see how this might be misunderstood. I was implying, rather than spelling out, that the Welsh may be regarded as a remnant of the Brittonic population of Britain. Naturally I explain that elsewhere in the book.

lrodgers
09-11-2015, 09:32 PM
Jean, I just ordered Blood of the Celts. I'm L1035>S744>CTS4931. Somehow my Scots/Pictish ancestor went to England and a descendant named John Rogers shipped from Gravesend, Kent to Jamestown, VA in 1635. We're trying to figure out how downstream SNPs of CTS4931 show Ro(d)gersmatches with a Campbell, McKinney, Ross, and MacRae

Thanks for all your postings

Agamemnon
09-12-2015, 02:12 PM
Just received it, I'm gonna read it when I come back home :)

MacUalraig
09-12-2015, 02:52 PM
Bought a copy in Waterstones this morning and galloping through it now. Nice to see a half page on M222 :-)

Dubhthach
09-12-2015, 03:35 PM
So Eason's have it on their webpage, gonna have to pop into main shop in O'Connell street (as it's largest to see if they have copy). Hodges & Figgis are owned by Waterstones so they might have it as well.

Eochaidh
09-23-2015, 10:53 AM
Amazon.com in the US has just informed me that the shipping date has been moved up so that my delivery date is now September 30. I got the hard cover version instead of the Kindle one because this is the kind of book that I like to touch.

Helgenes50
09-23-2015, 11:51 AM
Thanks Jean,

I received it two days ago.
Very interesting!
In France, impossible to find a book like Blood of the Celts
I am in it, a real pleasure

Celtarion
09-23-2015, 12:36 PM
Thanks Jean,

I received it two days ago.
Very interesting!
In France, impossible to find a book like Blood of the Celts
I am in it, a real pleasure

As far as I know there is no "equivalent" in France. It would be great to have it translated in French for french speakers.

Lugus
09-23-2015, 01:11 PM
I read 19% (on kindle) and enjoying so far. Better written and edited than "Ancestral Journeys" but some of the maps still need fixing. What language was spoken in Portugal in 1500 AD? (Map 27). It was definitely Portuguese, which is obviously an Indo-European language. We were done with the Reconquista by 1249.

Wonder_Wall
09-23-2015, 03:12 PM
I've got the Kindle version as of yesterday.

Am loving the Beaker/IE/Stelae People sections as this is a fantastic overview of the research and organized in a way I can knit together...

Jean M
09-23-2015, 05:57 PM
What language was spoken in Portugal in 1500 AD? (Map 27). It was definitely Portuguese, which is obviously an Indo-European language. We were done with the Reconquista by 1249.

Oh my goodness! Thank you so much. I never noticed that error in the map I used as the base for mine. It is in AJ as well.

Agamemnon
09-23-2015, 06:54 PM
Finished reading it last night, a great read to say the least!



Thanks Jean,

I received it two days ago.
Very interesting!
In France, impossible to find a book like Blood of the Celts
I am in it, a real pleasure

Quite so, I can't even imagine a publisher agreeing to publish this book, this subject is completely taboo here.

Wonder_Wall
09-23-2015, 07:01 PM
Agamemnon - why is this subject taboo in your area (I am assuming France.)

Isn't this topic just one of the many archaeological/DNA advances proceeding apace?

Kwheaton
09-23-2015, 07:50 PM
Well my copy is supposed to arrive Oct 1-3.....I'm jealous....:hungry:

Agamemnon
09-23-2015, 08:31 PM
Agamemnon - why is this subject taboo in your area (I am assuming France.)

Isn't this topic just one of the many archaeological/DNA advances proceeding apace?

It really isn't... I mean, France is a country where simple genetic differences between men and women are denied because facts are "sexist", in the same way any discussion of France genetic past is enough to get labeled a racist. For example, this year a British study in Normandy was nearly shut down by a famous leftist "NGO" for that very reason.

alan
09-23-2015, 08:42 PM
Finished reading it last night, a great read to say the least!




Quite so, I can't even imagine a publisher agreeing to publish this book, this subject is completely taboo here.

It was somewhat taboo in the UK for a long while too but this has changed. However, there is still a general understanding across most of western Europe that civic nationality based on place of upbringing trumps ethnic or ancestral considerations and hyphenating after the 1st generation or so based on where a grandparent is from tends to be mocked and seen as a potential conflict of loyalty.

alan
09-23-2015, 08:49 PM
It really isn't... I mean, France is a country where simple genetic differences between men and women are denied because facts are "sexist", in the same way any discussion of France genetic past is enough to get labeled a racist. For example, this year a British study in Normandy was nearly shut down by a famous leftist "NGO" for that very reason.

Funny enough though it is the old upper classes in the UK who have the obsession with lineage albeit in paper form. Sometimes they claim for exampleto be 'Scots' etc based on some ancestral pile or title that they no longer live in as they were descended from a younger son who didnt inherited and 5 generations have not been born or brought up there. The late Queen Mother is a classic example. Gave the impression she was somehow Scottish but it was all down to genealogy and feudal titles. In fact she, her father, her grandfather, her great grandfather and her great great grandfather were all not born in Scotland. Genetically the British upper classes will cluster by class not area. So the upper classes use a very very different way of self defining to the rest of us plebs who generally identify with place of residence.

Krefter
09-23-2015, 10:42 PM
I just downloaded the book for kindle. I skimmed through some of it. I like how it's not too complicated and straight to the point, so easy for someone like me learning this stuff for the first time.

Generalissimo
09-24-2015, 08:35 AM
It really isn't... I mean, France is a country where simple genetic differences between men and women are denied because facts are "sexist", in the same way any discussion of France genetic past is enough to get labeled a racist. For example, this year a British study in Normandy was nearly shut down by a famous leftist "NGO" for that very reason.

Let's hope this gets off the ground:


Around 7,000 years ago, Neolithic farmers left Anatolia (where agriculture and animal domestication had
been invented around 2-3,000 years earlier) following two different routes, through the Balkans
northwards to the Hungarian plain and from there westwards to arrive in the Parisian Basin, and through
the Mediterranean Sea along the coasts to arrive in Spain and in Southern France. During their
migrations, these populations developed different cultures with distinct pottery styles, the former one
called “Linearband Keramik” or LBK, the latter one called “Cardial pottery” culture. Both populations
encountered the autochtonous Mesolithic Europeans with their Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle. Previous
paleogenetic and –genomic analyses of skeletons belonging to these different populations outside of
France indicate that they can be discriminated by different geno- and phenotypes. During the Metal Ages
(Copper, Bronze and Iron Age) and later during the Roman colonization and the Germanic invasions,
other migrations took place since the mobility of people increased over time which led to admixture and
redistribution of the composition of the populations. These migrations were accompanied by admixture
events and possibly by extinctions and displacements leading to blending of genes that provided various
adaptations to the environment and to nutrients, as well as resistance and sensitivity to various diseases.
The methodological progress of paleogenomics, i.e., the analysis of DNA preserved in ancient skeletal
remains, and the combination of the obtained genetic, i.e., biological, and the cultural data make it
possible to characterize these processes and events in details. In the case of France, little is known so far,
despite a rich archaeological record. We have established various collaborations with archaeologists from
Southern and Northern France enabling us to analyze skeletons from all the major archaeological periods,
from the Mesolithic to the Early Middle Ages. Furthermore, we have developed and optimized both a
targeted approach based on multiplex PCR and next-generation sequencing (aMPlex Torrent approach)
and a targeted capture approach followed by next-generation sequencing on the Illumina platform to
analyze multiple genetic markers in ancient skeletons. Our set of genetic markers is able to characterize
ancient individuals in terms of their mitochondrial and Y chromosomal haplotypes, their phenotype (e.g.,
hair and eye color), and their physiology (e.g., lactose tolerance, resistance or predisposition to certain
diseases). We will explore the evolution of these characters from 7,000 to 1,000 BP in the populations
that settled in the French territory, thus providing a link between ancient and modern populations that has
the potential to enlighten the exploration of genomes of modern populations and the understanding of the
links between genomes and diseases.

Source (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjksLXioY_IAhWEi5QKHfMJC1k&url=http%3A%2F%2Fecolesdoctorales.parisdescartes.f r%2Fed157%2Fcontent%2Fdownload%2F85095%2F441306%2F version%2F1%2Ffile%2FGEIGL%2520Eva-Maria.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHgDM7oMJAnmNrL51iX7yxZ3AJJqQ&sig2=vwP1V3pkX3X32s5odASP_g&bvm=bv.103627116,d.dGo)

Jean M
09-24-2015, 12:07 PM
I like how it's not too complicated and straight to the point, so easy for someone like me learning this stuff for the first time.

My aim was to make this book more general reader-friendly than AJ, where I included a long chapter on methodology largely for an academic readership. People keen to get into the nitty-gritty can always follow-up the references.

MJost
09-24-2015, 02:48 PM
My copy, here in the USA, is to ship to me and should arrive between Oct 12 - Fri, Oct 16.

MJost
Amazon update: My order is due to arrive Oct 1st now.

MJost

MacUalraig
09-24-2015, 02:55 PM
My aim was to make this book more general reader-friendly than AJ, where I included a long chapter on methodology largely for an academic readership. People keen to get into the nitty-gritty can always follow-up the references.

I found it much easier to read but AJ discussed a lot of (to me) obscure groups from a wider area. This one is easier to relate to.

Celtarion
09-24-2015, 06:03 PM
Bought it last night in town, in Ireland, there was some on the shelves at Eason. I'll start to read it this weekend :-)

Peccavi
09-24-2015, 06:15 PM
Will it be published in paperback? I am a bedtime reader and hardbacks, besides being expensive, are too heavy

anglesqueville
09-24-2015, 10:07 PM
I bought the book yesterday, and just discovered ten minutes ago than the author is jean M. I look forward to starting to read.

anglesqueville
09-24-2015, 10:27 PM
Let's hope this gets off the ground:



Source (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjksLXioY_IAhWEi5QKHfMJC1k&url=http%3A%2F%2Fecolesdoctorales.parisdescartes.f r%2Fed157%2Fcontent%2Fdownload%2F85095%2F441306%2F version%2F1%2Ffile%2FGEIGL%2520Eva-Maria.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHgDM7oMJAnmNrL51iX7yxZ3AJJqQ&sig2=vwP1V3pkX3X32s5odASP_g&bvm=bv.103627116,d.dGo)

This is a "Proposition de sujet de thèse" , a proposal of subject for a doctoral thesis in Paris-Diderot University. Well... this person is courageous, and likely does'nt hope to become one of those "influential scientists" in favour with the parisian politicians and journalists. But the problem in France is not the courage of the scientists, the problem is the politicians and the journalists...

Just one thing more (I know I'm off topic): the reference page of the research team directors http://www.ijm.fr/recherche/equipes/epigenome/publications/ . Impressive. We have to be patient ( at least 2 years, if this proposal is recent), this work might be interesting.

Celtarion
09-24-2015, 10:37 PM
This is a "Proposition de sujet de thèse" , a proposal of subject for a doctoral thesis in Paris-Diderot University. Well... this person is courageous, and likely does'nt hope to become one of those "influential scientists" in favour with the parisian politicians and journalists. But the problem in France is not the courage of the scientists, the problem is the politicians and the journalists...

Cannot agree more, but more than that, we lack of serious paperwork about discoveries, we know the minimum and there is almost nothing published about DNA that is a serious concern.

The current situation in France does not help either and I won't see any progress in a near future due to local NGO being against DNA testing and due to current french law. That's why we need some books published in French so then it would help.

kinman
09-25-2015, 12:02 AM
I just saw that Amazon has the book in stock here in the U.S., so I ordered my copy. It says it may take an extra day or two to process, but I'm just happy they got it in stock earlier than they thought they would.
---------Ken

Jean M
09-25-2015, 02:37 PM
Will it be published in paperback? I am a bedtime reader and hardbacks, besides being expensive, are too heavy

If it follows the pattern of AJ, it should be out in paperback in a couple of years.

Jean M
09-25-2015, 02:41 PM
I found it much easier to read but AJ discussed a lot of (to me) obscure groups from a wider area. This one is easier to relate to.

Did it help that I started with the words of Celtic-speakers from the Isles? This was a tricky approach, going backwards in time first, then forwards, because it means trying to avoid repetition. I liked the idea as it plunges the reader straight into the mind of at least some Celts.

rms2
09-26-2015, 03:14 PM
I plan to order Blood of the Celts, but it isn't available from Amazon here until October 6, so I haven't ordered it yet. I want the hardback. My Kindle isn't really all that good for books with illustrations, maps, etc. Guess I need to upgrade to a better version of Kindle.

bicicleur
09-26-2015, 04:24 PM
I just ordered. It would be nice to discuss after I'll have read it.

Kwheaton
09-26-2015, 04:34 PM
I just ordered. It would be nice to discuss after I'll have read it.

Indeed!

GMan71
09-27-2015, 05:13 AM
Reading AJ now (loving it!) and when done will move on to this. Any suggestions out there for other similar books worth reading by a novice like me which may be recent and with a focus on Scandinavian or celtic/Welsh _ those being my personal areas of interest
Ta!

J1 DYS388=13
09-27-2015, 07:48 AM
Jean's two books are such comprehensive surveys that the next place you will want to go will probably be to her footnotes and references.

Specifically, on issues where there is no consensus, you may wish to read the academic arguments in detail and make up your own mind.

SwedeLover
09-27-2015, 01:37 PM
I just want to give out the latest information from my publisher. Blood of the Celts will be released in eBook format simultaneously with the hardback. That will be 7 September 2015 in the UK and 6 October 2015 in the US.

I mean no insult however.

.... a haplogroup H, which is from the Indian subcontinent, writing about Celts.


I find it interesting and may be moved to order a copy but then my father's mother's familial clan spans more than 1,756 years in Ireland directly, from the Corca Laoighdhe [or Corcu Loígde] linage descendant of Lugaid mac Dáire [roughly 500BC] of which Mac Con [173AD] was one of the most infamous members, and can even reach further to trace our linage back to the Celts seeing as our familial clan's name found its origins in the original Celtic [/Gaulish] language.

And no, unlike the Clan of Irvine we did not adopt a name based off of Celtic but were granted a name for our name is not constructed on a mismatch of words like Irvine is yr + afon - people of the fresh/green water - but an entire word based upon our clan's characteristics in battle.


I am saying that because my male relatives to that familial clan possess DYS Y connections that are of smaller number - thus "older" - than the average DYS [it accounts for some very limited genetic matching] and likewise my paternal grandmother's genetic matches are as such limited due to having older than common DNA.



I find it doubly interesting as your last sections go on about families which I am supposing you're related to. Otherwise you would have had an entire book on all of the familial clans that populate Scotland, ironic how you ignore Ireland [and Wales even - which if I remember correctly has the least % of Norman haplogroups] which is as if not more Celtic.


Royal Stewart Line - Norman / Viking, or similar outsider and related to Brian Boru. Stuart is the original name and has origins in English even Anglo-Saxon terms but not Gaelic.

Brian Boru - "Milesian" given his "reign". Though researchers are now saying that the Milesians - of which so is the Stewart line - was little more than mythology constructed by the British and their ilk as a means of "ruling" Ireland and were about as legit as saying Doggerland is Atlantis.

Clan MacFarlane - or Mormaer Maol's line - potentially Celtic. Though many maintain he was of north English origins or even again Norman. Being as he was of the 10th century AD he is far younger than my familial clan's origins regardless.

Clan of Irvine - relatively young when you get right down to it for a familial clan - there's other clans outside of mine in Ireland that span more than 1,000 years of history. The name itself is based off of Celtic [yr + afon - people of the fresh/green water] however that does not mean they even have an ounce of Celtic blood in them because the river they took their name off of was named well before them. Like MacFarlene it only came to weight in 10th century AD so is probably influenced by the Norman invasion rather than having any real Celtic origin.


Given that I may just buy a copy to see what you have come up with.

Jean M
09-27-2015, 02:10 PM
.... a haplogroup H, which is from the Indian subcontinent, writing about Celts.

H is on the Y-chromosome phylogenetic tree shown in illustration 8, which was taken from Ancestral Journeys illustration 6, where I mention in the caption that H is found in India and its subclade H1a1 is the most common haplogroup in European Romani. There is no particular reason why H should be on the tree for Blood of the Celts, but no desperate reason to remove it either. The illustration is simply showing haplogroups found in Europe, not haplogroups specific to Celts.

Jean M
09-27-2015, 02:19 PM
your last sections go on about families which I am supposing you're related to.

Not as far as I'm aware. :biggrin1: A few families were selected to illustrate the way in which Y-DNA haplogroups and surnames can be related, but also some of the problems. I requested suggestions on this forum, though I can't find the thread now. I had already collected some ideas in my notes on R1b subclades, mainly taken from this forum or FTDNA surname projects and I think I mainly ended up going with some of those.


ironic how you ignore Ireland [and Wales even ...] which is as if not more Celtic.

I assure you that neither Ireland nor Wales is ignored in Blood of Celts, which is not a book predominantly about surnames. The surname appendix is short and covers a few examples only, one of which is the descendants of the Irish Brian Boru. Another set of Irish surnames is mentioned in the box on page 171. Welsh surnames were adopted far later than surnames in Ireland or Scotland, and so are rather more frustrating for the genetic genealogist, but two are mentioned in the Deisi Muman box on p. 168, together with the Irish Whalen, Phelan etc.

Jean M
09-27-2015, 02:49 PM
Frankly I'm starting to regret adding that surname appendix, because the only reaction so far has been annoyance from people whose surnames were not included! :biggrin1:

I'd like to bet that there were similar complaints about the book Surnames, DNA and Family History by George Redmonds, Turi King and David Hey (OUP 2011). Though they were able to include far more surnames that I could, the list was still a long way short of what you would find in a surname dictionary.

Jean M
09-27-2015, 03:04 PM
Royal Stewart Line - Norman / Viking, or similar outsider and related to Brian Boru.

This is an line from Brittany, quite probably descended from a Briton who fled to Brittany in the Post- Roman period. Any relationship to the line of Brian Boru is simply that both lines are L21+, DF13+. They diverge after that.


Brian Boru - "Milesian" given his "reign". Though researchers are now saying that the Milesians ... was little more than mythology constructed by the British and their ilk as a means of "ruling" Ireland

What a weird idea! I can't imagine who would come up with it. The "Milesians" have been regarded as a fantasy by Irish scholars for generations, but they don't deny that the Book of Invasions is an Irish product. I deal with it in the pseudo-history section of chapter 1.

Scarlet Ibis
09-27-2015, 03:07 PM
John Lydgate: You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.


Ordered in hardback form. Would have preferred the Kindle version, as it would be easier to transport, but the main limitation of that format for me is that I can't quickly flip back and forth from footnotes, and previous chapters.

Looking forward to reading it.

Kwheaton
09-27-2015, 08:45 PM
Reading AJ now (loving it!) and when done will move on to this. Any suggestions out there for other similar books worth reading by a novice like me which may be recent and with a focus on Scandinavian or celtic/Welsh _ those being my personal areas of interest
Ta!
This is an eclectic mix of recommendations:
Ancestral Journeys by Jean yes!
The Horse, the Wheel and Language by David Anthony---Linguistics and archaeology--great background but deep
Britain Begins by Barry Cunliffe
Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood
By Steppe, Desert, and Ocean: The Birth of Eurasia by Barry Cunliffe (this is due out soon and a bit more broad based)
The Brothers Gwynedd (Quartet) by Edith Pargeter---a series of 4 Historical novels about Llewelyn the Great King of Wales ---if you like Wales this is a must read--have your map handy!
The Heaven Tree Trilogy by Edith Pargeter set on the borderlands--also historical and even better than The Brother's Gwynedd
Pendragon: The Definitive Account of the Origins of Arthur by Steve Blake and Scott Llyod A well researched book on the real Arthur of legend--not the Geoffrey of Monmouth version for then politics and later tourist trade...Especially recommend if you are traveling to Wales and want to visit
A Mirror of Medieval Wales: Gerald of Wales and His Journey of 1188 by Charles Kightly a slim vol from 1988 with nice photos and maps.

Kwheaton
09-27-2015, 09:02 PM
Frankly I'm starting to regret adding that surname appendix, because the only reaction so far has been annoyance from people whose surnames were not included! :biggrin1:

I'd like to bet that there were similar complaints about the book Surnames, DNA and Family History by George Redmonds, Turi King and David Hey (OUP 2011). Though they were able to include far more surnames that I could, the list was still a long way short of what you would find in a surname dictionary.

Jean ---has anyone ever been satisfied? I have that Surnames book--but I am sure even if they had included my surnames of interest I have now gone so much further---and that is the way of it, isn't it? Every month new DNA results, new ancients finds, its the nature of the beast but what an exciting time. Have you seen anything pre-publication on this
The Bell Beaker Transition in Europe: Mobility and local evolution during the 3rd millennium BC by Maria Pilar Prieto Martinez (Editor), Laure Salanova (Editor)? Looks interesting...

Jean M
09-29-2015, 08:42 AM
Have you seen anything pre-publication on this
The Bell Beaker Transition in Europe: Mobility and local evolution during the 3rd millennium BC by Maria Pilar Prieto Martinez (Editor), Laure Salanova (Editor)?

The book is out now. I have a copy. So does Alan. So we commented on it on the thread Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b, starting http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=101900&highlight=Prieto+Martinez#post101900 (table of contents) and http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=102394&viewfull=1#post102394 (initial comments).

kinman
09-30-2015, 06:43 PM
I got my hardback copy of Blood of the Celts today. Just skimmed through it quickly (especially the maps). I have one minor question about the Bell Beaker map on page 49. It shows two arrows pointing west that seem to be going up the Danube toward the Black Forest area, and a third arrow then going to the south coast of France. My question is whether there is any reason the Bell Beaker culture couldn't have instead gone in the opposite direction (east and down the Danube)?
------------Ken

MJost
09-30-2015, 07:11 PM
I got my hardback copy of Blood of the Celts today. Just skimmed through it quickly (especially the maps). I have one minor question about the Bell Beaker map on page 49. It shows two arrows pointing west that seem to be going up the Danube toward the Black Forest area, and a third arrow then going to the south coast of France. My question is whether there is any reason the Bell Beaker culture couldn't have instead gone in the opposite direction (east and down the Danube)?
------------Ken

HEYYYYY, I haven't got mine yet (shipped) need spoiler alerts used!!! Now I am curious and cant do a thing about it.... darn.

MJost

Jean M
09-30-2015, 07:22 PM
I have one minor question about the Bell Beaker map on page 49. It shows two arrows pointing west that seem to be going up the Danube toward the Black Forest area, and a third arrow then going to the south coast of France. My question is whether there is any reason the Bell Beaker culture couldn't have instead gone in the opposite direction (east and down the Danube)?
------------Ken

Hi Ken. The arrows should make more sense as you read the text. The ones to which you refer are intended to indicate the movement of the Eastern branch of BB, which seems to spring out of the Csepel group. The Csepel group is an intrusion into Hungary with some similarities to BB in Portugal, but takes on pottery types local to the Carpathian Basin and spreads them out in various directions. So we seem to get a reflux back westward into France and Italy. However it is probably best to see BB as a complex web of trails linking BB nodes, with people travelling to and fro along them.

Kwheaton
09-30-2015, 07:53 PM
HEYYYYY, I haven't got mine yet (shipped) need spoiler alerts used!!! Now I am curious and cant do a thing about it.... darn.

MJost
Same boat here. Supposed to arrive between today and Friday.

I do not know whether the book gets into this but I wish someone could simplify all the competing layers that involve the broad term "Celts."
For instance we have tribes, languages and cultures and time frames. These seem to overlap but not be interchangeable. Sort of the "pots are not people" but at the same time we have widely differing views of what this or that means and where it originated.

What I want is an outline, road-map or series of visual overlays so that I can see how squishy all these terms are. Where is that taxonomy, the Phylotree or ? Something I read yesterday in David Anthony's 'The Horse Wheel and Language' p102 really hit home for me:


Archaeologists' interpretations of pre-modern tribal borders have changed in the last forty years. Most pre-state tribal borders are now thought to have been porous and dynamic---frontiers not boundaries Most important, most are though to be ephemeral...But many tribes are now believed to have been transient political communities of the historical moment...And the same critical attitude toward bounded tribal territories is applied to European history. Ancient European tribal identities---Celt, Scythian, Cimbri, Teuton, and Pict---are now seen as convenient names for chameleon-like political alliances that had no true ethnic identity, or as brief phenomena that were unable to persist for any length of time, or even as entirely later inventions." Emphasis mine

We know the Celts were not ephemeral and that they encompassed a very broad area over a long time frame---my hope it that the "Blood of the Celts" gives me a better way to visualize it....I'll let you know when it arrives!

razyn
09-30-2015, 09:08 PM
My copy has just arrived. Have to do dinner and a rehearsal (but not a Rehearsal Dinner), so I look forward to starting on it while England sleeps.

Jean M
10-01-2015, 03:10 PM
Glad to know that Blood of the Celts is shipping faster than expected in the US.

By the way, I have just discovered that emails using my building.org address are falling into a black hole. That was the one on my website. I have changed it, with apologies to anyone who tried to contact me that way with comments.

MJost
10-01-2015, 10:48 PM
Ok, My copy just arrived fresh out of my post office mail box with the new book smell.

MJost

kinman
10-01-2015, 11:39 PM
Yes, mine had that smell as well, but I discovered most of it was the dust jacket. So like similar dust jackets, it went into my car trunk to air out for a couple of weeks. I don't like that modern "new car" smell either (too much plastic where there used to be metal). However, I am enjoying reading the book itself.
-----------Ken


Ok, My copy just arrived fresh out of my post office mail box with the new book smell.

MJost

Kwheaton
10-01-2015, 11:46 PM
Yes, mine had that smell as well, but I discovered most of it was the dust jacket. So like similar dust jackets, it went into my car trunk to air out for a couple of weeks. I don't like that modern "new car" smell either (too much plastic where there used to be metal). However, I am enjoying reading the book itself.
-----------Ken
Looks like mine won't be here til tomorrow.. :pout:..and at that its across town at my daughters as it was a gift....at this point I do not care what it smells like.

MJost
10-02-2015, 12:48 AM
lol, now.. to page 102 haha

MJost

Kwheaton
10-02-2015, 11:47 PM
Jean,

I have only had your book for about 20 minutes and I am blown away!:cheer2:

I think I must have just got VERY lucky. The chart on Pg 8 was made to order (my comment up thread). As always wonderful charts and maps. (ie.: Pg 44-45)

But nothing could have prepared me for the chart on pg 208. Of my 8 2nd great grandfathers 2 are covered in this chart FRANKLIN who are CTS6919 and closely related to MacFarlane and my Royal STEWART line. When I started doing genealogy over 40 years ago one family legend said that my 2nd great grandmother received a $3,000 inheritance and a book on the Royal Stewarts---turns out the line is indeed connected to the Royal STEWARTS. You also manage to get in my L21-M222 (PADEN) line. That and covering my WHEATONS in U152 (my husband and me way far back). Did I die and go to heaven? :angel:

Thank you---you made at least one reader very, very happy! :love:

I'll have more feedback when I have a chance to read and digest.
Bravo!

Jean M
10-03-2015, 10:47 AM
But nothing could have prepared me for the chart on pg 208. Of my 8 2nd great grandfathers 2 are covered in this chart FRANKLIN who are CTS6919 and closely related to MacFarlane and my Royal STEWART line.

You have really cheered me up. :) That makes me feel a lot better about including a surnames appendix. It won't give everyone what they want, but there are a few stories in there to encourage people to join FTDNA surname projects and the like.

Kwheaton
10-03-2015, 01:31 PM
You have really cheered me up. :) That makes me feel a lot better about including a surnames appendix. It won't give everyone what they want, but their are a few stories in there to encourage people to join FTDNA surname projects and the like.

I lied that is 3: STEWART, FRANKLIN and PADEN.

Jean,
The way you used them was as an illustration of the possibilities of tying surnames into the greater Celtic history. In fact from what I have read so far that is the strength of the book. If you don't mind me saying it--- I think it is much more readable than AJ as the way you weave the story in with the evidence makes a much more compelling and interesting read. Don't get me wrong, you know I liked AJ but that was like the skeleton and this is like the flesh and sinew....the heart of the human story. Not only that I think this has the potential to reach a broader audience.

The average person does not understand why a bunch of bones, or pottery shards matters. This presents the history of a culture or identity that very much lives today in our genes and in our traditions. And we live in a time where we are able to unlock many of the past's secrets by using DNA--- whether it be of plants, animals or humans. The parallels with our past are striking.

I am taking my time reading Blood of the Celts. Like Ancestral Journeys those looking for a treatise on their Haplogroup aren't going to find it. I just got lucky in that you happened to use a couple of mine for illustration. Honestly I nearly fell out of my chair. This insures some folks will be getting a particular book for Christmas. Luckily thy don't follow these threads.

Don't get discouraged...this is a tough crowd. From what I have read you have done an excellent job of synthesizing a complex topic and for that we all should be grateful. :grouphug:

anglesqueville
10-03-2015, 02:18 PM
I've received the book this morning, and spent three hours to read through it. I have to finish Greenberg t1 before working on the Blood. In any case, obviously, there has been a lot of water under the bridge since Sykes wrote : ""I can see no evidence at all of a large scale immigration from central Europe to Ireland and the west of the Isles generally, such as been used to explain the presence there of the main body of 'Gaels' or 'Celts'. The 'Celts' of Ireland and the Western Isles are not, as far as I can see from the genetic evidence, related to the Celts who spread south and east to Italy, Greece and Turkey from the heartlands of Hallstatt and La Tène in the shadows of the Alps during the first millennium BC. The people of the Isles who now feel themselves to be Celts have far deeper roots in the Isles than that and, as far as I can see, their ancestors have been here for several thousand years" .

Kwheaton
10-03-2015, 02:35 PM
I've received the book this morning, and spent three hours to read through it. I have to finish Greenberg t1 before working on the Blood. In any case, obviously, there has been a lot of water under the bridge since Sykes wrote : ""I can see no evidence at all of a large scale immigration from central Europe to Ireland and the west of the Isles generally, such as been used to explain the presence there of the main body of 'Gaels' or 'Celts'. The 'Celts' of Ireland and the Western Isles are not, as far as I can see from the genetic evidence, related to the Celts who spread south and east to Italy, Greece and Turkey from the heartlands of Hallstatt and La Tène in the shadows of the Alps during the first millennium BC. The people of the Isles who now feel themselves to be Celts have far deeper roots in the Isles than that and, as far as I can see, their ancestors have been here for several thousand years" .

Yes you are correct in that the early inhabitants of the isles.....Those of 5 to 10 thousand years ago or more, are awaiting their time in the sun. The further we move back in time though, the less evidence we have to go on. It is not unlikely that these early inhabitants like almost every other population under the sun, may have vestiges in our DNA just as we have Neanderthal and Dennsovian. But it also may be true that depending on how successful any group of invaders, Celts, Saxons, Vikings etc they may be over or under represented in our genes. As Jean mentions briefly the Bretons "Most probably some were returning to the land of their ancestors." p210. I wonder over the course of history how many times that happens?

Jean M
10-03-2015, 04:16 PM
Sykes wrote : " The people of the Isles who now feel themselves to be Celts have far deeper roots in the Isles than that and, as far as I can see, their ancestors have been here for several thousand years"

I actually agree with Sykes on this, since I argue that the first Celtic-speakers arrived in the Isles with Late Bell Beaker c. 2200 BC (nearly 4000 years ago) rather than with La Tène which arrived c. 450 BC (2465 years ago) in Britain and in Ireland not much before 300 BC (2315 years ago).

As I say in the Prologue, all Europeans have elements in our DNA of the three broad component parts of the European gene pool: Western hunter-gatherers, early European farmers and a Copper Age people.

The problem lies in disentangling them for specific individuals or populations, by which I mean that Celtic-speakers would have arrived in the Isles already carrying some DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers. Then in the Isles they would encounter people carrying DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers.

anglesqueville
10-03-2015, 04:44 PM
I actually agree with Sykes on this, since I argue that the first Celtic-speakers arrived in the Isles with Late Bell Beaker c. 2200 BC (nearly 4000 years ago) rather than with La Tène which arrived c. 450 BC (2465 years ago) in Britain and in Ireland not much before 300 BC (2315 years ago).

As I say in the Prologue, all Europeans have elements in our DNA of the three broad component parts of the European gene pool: Western hunter-gatherers, early European farmers and a Copper Age people.

The problem lies in disentangling them for specific individuals or populations, by which I mean that Celtic-speakers would have arrived in the Isles already carrying some DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers. Then in the Isles they would encounter people carrying DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers.

The problem lies in the word "several" ( in "........ for several thousand years..."). It's far too vague. The quotation of Sykes (from his book "Saxons, Celts and Vikings") is used by the followers of Mario Alinei on the official site of the PaleoContinuity theory in support of this theory. I doubt that they could find in your book anything in line with the PCT.

Jean M
10-03-2015, 05:44 PM
I doubt that they could find in your book anything in line with the PCT.

I certainly hope not. I am completely opposed to PCT.

rms2
10-03-2015, 06:17 PM
I actually agree with Sykes on this, since I argue that the first Celtic-speakers arrived in the Isles with Late Bell Beaker c. 2200 BC (nearly 4000 years ago) rather than with La Tène which arrived c. 450 BC (2465 years ago) in Britain and in Ireland not much before 300 BC (2315 years ago).

As I say in the Prologue, all Europeans have elements in our DNA of the three broad component parts of the European gene pool: Western hunter-gatherers, early European farmers and a Copper Age people.

The problem lies in disentangling them for specific individuals or populations, by which I mean that Celtic-speakers would have arrived in the Isles already carrying some DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers. Then in the Isles they would encounter people carrying DNA from hunter-gatherers and early European farmers.

Of course, what Sykes meant is something far different from what you mean. He was basically saying that insular Celts weren't "true Celts" but were rather the descendants of Basque-like people who began arriving in the Isles soon after the LGM. That was already hardened orthodoxy when I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test from FTDNA back in 2006.

anglesqueville
10-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Of course, what Sykes meant is something far different from what you mean. He was basically saying that insular Celts weren't "true Celts" but were rather the descendants of Basque-like people who began arriving in the Isles soon after the LGM. That was already hardened orthodoxy when I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test from FTDNA back in 2006.

Exactly. And that's the reason why I told that there has been a lot of water under the bridge. I'm not sure, but I seem to know that this old "iberian-fantasy" is today completely abandoned (excepted of course by a few amateurs, but that's unsignificant).

Jean M
10-03-2015, 07:04 PM
Of course, what Sykes meant is something far different from what you mean.

Of course he did. I just couldn't resist the opportunity to actually agree with one statement taken out of context. :behindsofa:

kinman
10-05-2015, 03:16 AM
Hi Jean,
We have been having a debate over the origin of Bell Beaker Culture on the "Bell Beaker, Gimbutas, and R1b" thread. Especially concerning that early 4000 B.C. pot (Figure 41 in Blood of the Celts). Anyway, I just posted the following timeline for the hypothetical spread of Bell Beaker from 3400-2800 B.C.:

My hypothesis:
A more parsimonious scenario would be:
(1) a single "beakerish" pottery arising in Ukraine and/or Moldova about 3400 BC (or earlier).
(2) About 3200 B.C., R-U106 takes it north and west around the Carpathians founding Corded Ware Culture (with some input from R1a relatives) and they begin speaking proto-Germanic (but the earliest of their Corded Ware so far found is 2800 BC in Poland).
(3) meanwhile brother clade R-P312 starts going up the Danube about 3200 BC, and it spins off the Vucedol Culture about 3100 BC. But some of their relatives stayed behind in Romania where their domesticated horses have been found (age 3000 B.C.) and began crossing over into northern Bulgaria about that time (and eventually into western Turkey), as is explained in the "Horse Domestication" thread which I started a while back.
(4) R-P312 reached Austria by about 3000 B.C., where R-U152 is born.
(5) they continue up the Danube to the Black Forest where they find the Rhine River on the other side.
(6) some of them go south on the Rhine, expanding south into Italy and Spain (and the Maritime version of Bell Beaker takes off about 2800 B.C.).

It would be various variations of "Bell Beaker" all the way from Ukraine to Spain in about 600 years (not to mention the associated Kurgan burial practices, etc). And perhaps it had been in the Ukraine area for up to 600 years prior to that (4000-3400 BC; due to Kurgan Wave 1). Whether Cucuteni started the "beakerish" pottery and the Kurgan people adopted it, or vice versa, is uncertain. In any case, after 3400 BC (and the decline of Cucutenian culture due to the drought), it became a demic spread of R1b men up the Danube taking their Bell Beaker Culture and Italo-Celtic language with them. And while some had gone south on the Rhine River, others had gone north, and yet others west across France. Of course with R1b men spreading every which way, things got a bit more complicated after 2800 B.C., especially once the maritime spread from Spain began.
-------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Krefter
10-05-2015, 04:24 AM
This is interesting. "table showing the principal ethnic groups that contributed to the DNA of the counties of the British Isles (http://www.isogg.org/britishcodnasources.htm)". I found it here (http://www.britishislesdna.com/DNAEtc/dna_results.htm). If Angels were in Cornwal early on that can explain why they're similar to western English. It can also explain English affinity in parts of Scotland. IMO, I think ancient DNA suggests at the core all British isles are pre-Angle Saxon and there's minority influences that are mostly Angle Saxon.

Jean M
10-05-2015, 07:42 AM
If Angels were in Cornwal early on that can explain why they're similar to western English. It can also explain English affinity in parts of Scotland. IMO, I think ancient DNA suggests at the core all British isles are pre-Angle Saxon and there's minority influences that are mostly Angle Saxon.

Far be it from me to say that there were no angels in Cornwall, but there were no Angles. ;) It became part of a Saxon kingdom. But yes you have the gist. The genetic similarities today between the people of Cornwall and other parts of England are obviously due (in part) to the fact that Angles and Saxons managed to settle all over England to some degree before the Norman conquest.

What the bar chart cannot make clear, because it has to simplify, is that Saxon control was not the same as complete population replacement in Cornwall. You understand that of course. Cornwall retained its Celtic language until the 17th century. But there were English-speakers continuing to settle there over the centuries after the Norman conquest.

The other reason that there is a genetic similarity with modern-day English outside Cornwall is that the English are a mixed bunch as well. The boundary between England and the Celtic-speaking fringe was porous. It was not some impassible divide. Thousands of Irish, Welsh, Scots and Cornish people settled in England (outside Cornwall) over the centuries from the Middle Ages to modern times. That is why modern DNA is not going to give us a picture of England in 500 or 600 or 700 AD. We need ancient DNA and we are getting it at last.

Jean M
10-05-2015, 07:54 AM
Hi Jean,
We have been having a debate over the origin of Bell Beaker Culture on the "Bell Beaker, Gimbutas, and R1b" thread. Especially concerning that early 4000 B.C. pot (Figure 41 in Blood of the Celts). Anyway, I just posted the following timeline for the hypothetical spread of Bell Beaker from 3400-2800 B.C.:

Hi Ken. Thank you for letting me know, but it is best not to cross-post, as conversations can become scattered all over the place and hard to follow. I would rather that people respond to you there than here. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b/page35

Kwheaton
10-05-2015, 01:55 PM
That is why modern DNA is not going to give us a picture of England in 500 or 600 or 700 AD. We need ancient DNA and we are getting it at last.

Jean--- can you give us an idea of what British ancient DNA samples are coming?
TIA Kelly

Jean M
10-05-2015, 02:29 PM
Jean--- can you give us an idea of what British ancient DNA samples are coming?
TIA Kelly

See Blood of the Celts, p. 26, last paragraph, for a brief reference to the interesting study by Schiffels et al. They started with just a handful of samples from Hinxton, Cambridgeshire: two Iron Age men (R1b-L21) and three Anglo-Saxon women. But they now have several other samples from eastern England. For all I know he may be announcing yet more this month at the conference in Jena : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112349&viewfull=1#post112349

I certainly hope that we will be getting some British aDNA results from Martin Richards at the conference in Aberyswyth at the end of this month. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015&p=111353&viewfull=1#post111353

David Mc reported on the testing of bodies found in Crammond (a village on the outskirts of Edinburgh) from the 6th century, possibly linking them to the ancient kingdom of Gododdin: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112081#post112081

Kwheaton
10-05-2015, 03:00 PM
See Blood of the Celts, p. 26, last paragraph, for a brief reference to the interesting study by Schiffels et al. They started with just a handful of samples from Hinxton, Cambridgeshire: two Iron Age men (R1b-L21) and three Anglo-Saxon women. But they now have several other samples from eastern England. For all I know he may be announcing yet more this month at the conference in Jena : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112349&viewfull=1#post112349

I certainly hope that we will be getting some British aDNA results from Martin Richards at the conference in Aberyswyth at the end of this month. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015&p=111353&viewfull=1#post111353

David Mc reported on the testing of bodies found in Crammond (a village on the outskirts of Edinburgh) from the 6th century, possibly linking them to the ancient kingdom of Gododdin: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112081#post112081

Thanks Jean. I am lusting for new Y-DNA from the isles. I even inquired into the bones retrived over 100 years ago from the BB round barrow near Stogursey, Somerset. Some isotopye work, but no DNA. When I was in a small village in York I was just a few days to late to see the medeival skeletons unearthed only 3' deep below the parish church floor. If only there was a requirement to take samples before reconsecrating them....so many mysteries could be solved.

David Mc
10-05-2015, 06:40 PM
See Blood of the Celts, p. 26, last paragraph, for a brief reference to the interesting study by Schiffels et al. They started with just a handful of samples from Hinxton, Cambridgeshire: two Iron Age men (R1b-L21) and three Anglo-Saxon women. But they now have several other samples from eastern England. For all I know he may be announcing yet more this month at the conference in Jena : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112349&viewfull=1#post112349

I certainly hope that we will be getting some British aDNA results from Martin Richards at the conference in Aberyswyth at the end of this month. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015&p=111353&viewfull=1#post111353

David Mc reported on the testing of bodies found in Crammond (a village on the outskirts of Edinburgh) from the 6th century, possibly linking them to the ancient kingdom of Gododdin: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=112081#post112081

To be clear, I'm (ahem) unclear as to the level of testing that was done on the "Gododdin" and (single) "Strathclyde" remains. They were thorough enough to determine that the Gododdin ones belong to one family group; I'm hoping against hope that we're going to be hearing about haplogroups and SNPs in the not too distant future, but I have no solid information.

avalon
10-05-2015, 07:11 PM
This is interesting. "table showing the principal ethnic groups that contributed to the DNA of the counties of the British Isles (http://www.isogg.org/britishcodnasources.htm)". I found it here (http://www.britishislesdna.com/DNAEtc/dna_results.htm). If Angels were in Cornwal early on that can explain why they're similar to western English. It can also explain English affinity in parts of Scotland. IMO, I think ancient DNA suggests at the core all British isles are pre-Angle Saxon and there's minority influences that are mostly Angle Saxon.

Another thing to note about Cornwall was that a lot of people left Cornwall in the 19th century.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/cornwall/article_1.shtml


In each decade from 1861 to 1901, around 20% of the Cornish male population migrated abroad – three times the average for England and Wales. In total, the county lost over a quarter of a million people between 1841 and 1901. The emigrants included farmers, merchants and tradesmen, but miners made up most of the numbers.

Just to add, Cornwall is a also major tourist hot spot and has been for quite some time - the sort of place people relocate to from other parts of the UK. So, the Cornish population has probably changed quite a bit just in the last few hundred years.

Krefter
10-05-2015, 07:52 PM
Another thing to note about Cornwall was that a lot of people left Cornwall in the 19th century.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/cornwall/article_1.shtml

Just to add, Cornwall is a also major tourist hot spot and has been for quite some time - the sort of place people relocate to from other parts of the UK. So, the Cornish population has probably changed quite a bit just in the last few hundred years.

You could be right. But I doubt recent events could make Cornish go from Irish-like to English-like. I don't know of many Y DNA studies on Cornish, that'd be important to look at.

Peter MacDonald
10-05-2015, 11:44 PM
Amazon.ca is releasing The Blood of the Celts tomorrow. I have it pre-order and look forward to reading it soon.

kinman
10-06-2015, 02:18 AM
Hi all,
We already know that the gene for Lactase Persistence (the opposite of Lactose Intolerance) is most frequent in R1b (and second most frequent in R1a). But what surprised me is that horse milk is quite a bit higher in Vitamin C than milk from cows and goats, etc. This would have been a great health advantage for the R1b once they began taming (and then domesticating) horses on the eastern steppes around western Kazakhstan. As I have already suggested, milking capture mares may have begun the whole process of taming and domestication of horses in western Kazakhstan (or nearby), not to mention a supply of meat during harsh winters.
The lack of Vitamin C on the steppes (leading to moderate or even severe, and thus deadly, cases of scurvy) may have been at least one reason R1b populations were so very low between 14,000 and 7,000 years ago (no known living side branches between M269 and L23). A late population of R-M269 in Kazakhstan could have accidentally begun the process of reducing the scurvy threat when they began capturing mares for milk. If this began about 7,000 years ago, it may have contributed to the future success of their most important son (the original R-L23 man) who I estimate was born about 6800 years ago. And taming may have lead to actual breeding of horses about that same time.
The health of the R1b population in western Kazakhstan (and adjacent areas) could have improved so much that their population began to climb rapidly, and their healthier children became taller, stronger, and also more energetic and adventurous than their ancestors. That would have set the stage for their spread west to Ukraine (Kurgan Wave 1 about 6200 years ago). The domestication of the horse not only made them more mobile, but more energetic and healthy. As lactose intolerance dropped dramatically, health and life span (as well as mobility) increased, and most importantly, populations to the west did NOT have these advantages.
Couple that with the increasing genetic tendency to produce more sons than daughters, R1b had advantages of several kinds that would almost assure their successful expansion over the coming centuries. And with the great drought in Europe starting around 5300 years ago, R1b (and to a lesser extent R1a) had even more advantages (since they were not dependent on farming). AND ALMOST ALL of these advantages are mainly due to their taming and domestication of the horse. By 5200 years ago, a drought starved and scattered European population would have been very vulnerable to the Kurgan expansion up the Danube (as well as U106 going north and west of the Carpathian Mountains and helping to found Corded Ware Culture and the proto-Germanic language).
-------------Ken
P.S. Anyway, the often criticized hypotheses about calcium and Vitamin D being mainly involved may be somewhat valid. It seems more likely to me that Vitamin C was probably even more of a factor.

Krefter
10-06-2015, 08:03 AM
I can't find access to the The Celts: Blood, Iron, and Sacrifice documentary. But I read a few short articles online. I'm tired of the: "They were wrongly seen as savages by snobby Romans. In-fact they were super civilized and equal to Rome. But they were still savages because savages are cool. And they were major contributors to creating modern European civilization". The exact same narriative is given for the relationship between Native Americans/African Americans and Europeans in American history books. Is this a reflection of historians attitudes or real history:noidea:

Jean M
10-06-2015, 09:02 AM
I can't find access to the The Celts: Blood, Iron, and Sacrifice documentary. But I read a few short articles online. I'm tired of the: "They were wrongly seen as savages by snobby Romans. In-fact they were super civilized and equal to Rome. But they were still savages because savages are cool.

There is now a thread specially for discussion of the TV series: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5564-The-Celts-Blood-Iron-and-Sacrifice I wonder if a Mod can find time to move your post over there.

David Mc
10-06-2015, 09:07 AM
I can't find access to the The Celts: Blood, Iron, and Sacrifice documentary. But I read a few short articles online. I'm tired of the: "They were wrongly seen as savages by snobby Romans. In-fact they were super civilized and equal to Rome. But they were still savages because savages are cool. And they were major contributors to creating modern European civilization". The exact same narriative is given for the relationship between Native Americans/African Americans and Europeans in American history books. Is this a reflection of historians attitudes or real history:noidea:

I think you can lay much of the blame for this one at the feet of Rousseau. He isn't the one who came up with the ideal of "the noble savage," but he did more than anyone in building it up until it became a shining post-enlightenment archetype. To some extent civilized peoples have always done that, though, not least the Romans themselves. Many a Roman writer used the courage or nobility of the Celts or Germans to try to rouse their fellow countrymen out of their decadence-- think of the words Tacitus put in the mouth of Calgacus before the Battle of Mons Graupius.

avalon
10-06-2015, 06:42 PM
You could be right. But I doubt recent events could make Cornish go from Irish-like to English-like. I don't know of many Y DNA studies on Cornish, that'd be important to look at.

I think that because they were Brythonic speaking the Cornish were originally more Welsh-like than Irish-like but I know what you are saying.

As Jean mentioned the key factor in Cornish history is the decline of the language by the 17/18th century. To a certain extent, this must be down to an influx of English speakers moving into Cornwall prior to this point. I don't know the details but this may have been a process that lasted centuries and add to that changes in Cornwall since Industrial times, the Cornish are now more English-like in terms of autosomal DNA.

rms2
10-07-2015, 11:31 AM
Amazon.ca is releasing The Blood of the Celts tomorrow. I have it pre-order and look forward to reading it soon.

I'm hoping to order in the next day or so. Yesterday was my youngest daughter's birthday, and this coming Sunday we're having a big party for her, so things have been kind of hectic.

I look forward to reading it. Jean's writing is very engaging, and that made reading Ancestral Journeys (more than once) a real pleasure. If Blood of the Celts is anywhere near as good, it will be well worth the price.

Kwheaton
10-07-2015, 01:21 PM
I'm hoping to order in the next day or so. Yesterday was my youngest daughter's birthday, and this coming Sunday we're having a big party for her, so things have been kind of hectic.

I look forward to reading it. Jean's writing is very engaging, and that made reading Ancestral Journeys (more than once) a real pleasure. If Blood of the Celts is anywhere near as good, it will be well worth the price.

Its even better!

seferhabahir
10-09-2015, 05:16 PM
Amazon.ca is releasing The Blood of the Celts tomorrow. I have it pre-order and look forward to reading it soon.

My Amazon copy showed up on my doorstep Wednesday afternoon. Looking forward to reading it...

Peter MacDonald
10-14-2015, 10:23 PM
Amazon.ca is releasing The Blood of the Celts tomorrow. I have it pre-order and look forward to reading it soon.

It appears Amazon.ca has had a stocking issue and have not released the Blood of the Celts yet. It was suppose to be released for shipping on 6 October but now will not be released until it is stocked. Hopefully it will be released by Amazon.ca soon.

rms2
10-17-2015, 04:06 PM
I know I am behind just about everyone else, but I finally ordered a copy of Blood of the Celts this morning. My wife pestered me to wait until she was ready to order something for our dogs so that we could get free shipping from Amazon. (Yes, it's true.)

Heber
10-17-2015, 08:40 PM
I was fortunate to catch "The Celts, Art and Identity", exhibition at the British Museum, during a trip to London on Thursday.

I did not quiet agree with all of the narrative however it was a beautiful collection of objects and superb presentation.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celts-art-and-identity/

I have uploads extracts Jean Manco's excellent presentation from GGI2015. The video of the lecture is delayed until the end of October due to a laptop incident.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

rms2
10-20-2015, 11:00 AM
Found my copy of Blood the Celts waiting for me when I came in from work yesterday evening. I was dog tired, so I didn't read much, but what I did read was really good. I have the book with me today to read on the train home (that's where I get most of my reading done).

rms2
10-28-2015, 11:51 AM
Okay, I have something I am wondering about based on my reading of Blood of the Celts. It's something that will probably make me look dumb or lazy or both (and both are equally true of me at times). Anyway, on pages 170 and 171, Jean, you mention the surnames of the families you believe are descended from Cruithin in their y-dna lines and are I-M284. Among them you name the McGuinness family who became the lords of Iveagh in the 12th century.

Okay. The famous Guinness brewing family included Edward Guinness, who was the first Earl of Iveagh, but he held that title beginning in the mid 19th century. I understand the famous beer-brewing Guinness y-dna line is R1b-M222 and not I-M284. It is somewhat confusing that there were I-M284 McGuinnesses who were lords of Iveagh in the Middle Ages, and then Guinnesses (minus the Mc) who were R1b-M222 who became earls of Iveagh in the 19th century.

Is it just a coincidence that the names were so similar and both families were connected to Iveagh? Obviously they are unrelated in terms of y-dna.

2000
10-28-2015, 12:35 PM
Okay, I have something I am wondering about based on my reading of Blood of the Celts. It's something that will probably make me look dumb or lazy or both (and both are equally true of me at times). Anyway, on pages 170 and 171, Jean, you mention the surnames of the families you believe are descended from Cruithin in their y-dna lines and are I-M284. Among them you name the McGuinness family who became the lords of Iveagh in the 12th century.

Okay. The famous Guinness brewing family included Edward Guinness, who was the first Earl of Iveagh, but he held that title beginning in the mid 19th century. I understand the famous beer-brewing Guinness y-dna line is R1b-M222 and not I-M284. It is somewhat confusing that there were I-M284 McGuinnesses who were lords of Iveagh in the Middle Ages, and then Guinnesses (minus the Mc) who were R1b-M222 who became earls of Iveagh in the 19th century.

Is it just a coincidence that the names were so similar and both families were connected to Iveagh? Obviously they are unrelated in terms of y-dna.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/guinness-familys-origins-smaller-beer-than-thought-26339150.html

Heber
10-28-2015, 02:52 PM
Okay, I have something I am wondering about based on my reading of Blood of the Celts. It's something that will probably make me look dumb or lazy or both (and both are equally true of me at times). Anyway, on pages 170 and 171, Jean, you mention the surnames of the families you believe are descended from Cruithin in their y-dna lines and are I-M284. Among them you name the McGuinness family who became the lords of Iveagh in the 12th century.

Okay. The famous Guinness brewing family included Edward Guinness, who was the first Earl of Iveagh, but he held that title beginning in the mid 19th century. I understand the famous beer-brewing Guinness y-dna line is R1b-M222 and not I-M284. It is somewhat confusing that there were I-M284 McGuinnesses who were lords of Iveagh in the Middle Ages, and then Guinnesses (minus the Mc) who were R1b-M222 who became earls of Iveagh in the 19th century.

Is it just a coincidence that the names were so similar and both families were connected to Iveagh? Obviously they are unrelated in terms of y-dna.

A good source is "Arthurs Round" written by Patrick Guinness descendent of Arthur.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arthurs-Round-Brewing-Legend-Guinness/dp/0720612969

You can find a detailed account of the story here.

http://zythophile.co.uk/2007/12/12/arthur-guinnesss-true-genetic-roots/

When I asked Patrick about it a few years ago and encouraged him to do a more detailed SNP test I got this reply which is strange in that I assumed they were M222.

"Yes probably it's time for another test. I think we are DF41, dal riadic who "stayed at home". But also found in the Donleavys who ruled east Co Down until 1177. Narrow seas anyway."

rms2
10-28-2015, 03:46 PM
Thanks. I believe it was Paul (Dubhthach) who told me the Guinnesses are supposed to be R1b-M222, and now I think I remember that he told me about them not being related to the high-falutin McGuinness/Magennis family but stemming from the McCartan clan. I had forgotten that part of the story.

If they are R1b-DF41, that is news to me: welcome news, since I am DF41+ myself, and Guinness Stout is one of my favorite beers.

I wonder if we can confirm that.

MacUalraig
10-28-2015, 04:45 PM
Thanks. I believe it was Paul (Dubhthach) who told me the Guinnesses are supposed to be R1b-M222, and now I think I remember that he told me about them not being related to the high-falutin McGuinness/Magennis family but stemming from the McCartan clan. I had forgotten that part of the story.

If they are R1b-DF41, that is news to me: welcome news, since I am DF41+ myself, and Guinness Stout is one of my favorite beers.

I wonder if we can confirm that.

I don't ever recall hearing that he was M222. You can still see the STR data from the study he funded and assuming he is one of the 3xGUINNESS listed he definitely isn't.
There are a number of MCGUINNESS suspects though.

http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/link%20files/McEvoy%20et%20al%202006%20Hum%20Gen%20Sup_Info.xls

Jean M
10-28-2015, 05:25 PM
Anyway, on pages 170 and 171, Jean, you mention the surnames of the families you believe are descended from Cruithin in their y-dna lines and are I-M284. Among them you name the McGuinness family who became the lords of Iveagh in the 12th century.

For the genetics, I was relying partly on McEvoy and Bradley 2010. They are very vague. They just say that I1c (by which they mean I-M284) is shared by McGuinness and McCartan males, groups with a historically recorded 6th-century common ancestor. I checked as far as possible. The Cruithin to Barony of Iveagh descent seems historically solid. So far so good.

I-S7753, a subclade of I-M284, is carried by men of several Irish Gaelic surnames, including McGuinness, as shown by the Family Tree DNA I-M223 project. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan?iframe=ycolorized

My problem is that I don't know which McGuinness males were tested by McEvoy and Bradley. Or whether any of the McGuinness men in the FTDNA project are descended from the McGuinnesses of the Barony of Iveagh. All illumination gratefully received.

Jean M
10-28-2015, 05:34 PM
Have just checked Brian McEvoy and Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006).

Had a feeling that McGuinness was in there. It is. They tested 99 of them, who fell into two groups, which they labelled IxI1b2 and R13b.


The best-sampled name McGuinness (n=99), derived from the Irish Mac Aonghusa meaning ‘son of Angus’, showed the signature of two major ancestral males as well as the smaller legacies of several other paternal lineages (Fig. 4). The surnames McCreesh and Neeson are putative distinct anglicisations of the original Mac Aonghusa (MacLysaght 1985b) and in support of this origin they both display a shared patrilineal ancestry with McGuinness (Fig. 4). However, the two derive from different McGuinness lineages—neither of which corresponds to the most frequent or diverse lineage, which is the most likely legacy of the eponymous Angus. The surname Guinness is potentially associated with a minor McGuinness lineage but is not obviously connected to any of the bigger clusters. In addition very early genealogical tracts name a common 6th century AD male ancestor for the McGuinness and McCartan surname progenitors (Byrne 2001). Remarkably this appears to be confirmed by the close relationship of the most prominent, and probable founding, lineages in each surname (Fig. 4). This suggests a degree of reliability to early Irish historical accounts and records that are otherwise difficult to confirm.

Fig 4:

6464

MacUalraig
10-28-2015, 05:57 PM
I posted a link to the raw data from the 2006 paper two posts up.

Jean M
10-28-2015, 06:07 PM
I posted a link to the raw data from the 2006 paper two posts up.

Thanks. I opened it, but wasn't making the connection. Didn't look properly. It has now gone into the right place in my library.

rms2
10-28-2015, 06:27 PM
What about Patrick Guinness' remark to Gerard, "I think we are DF41 . . ."?

Jean M
10-28-2015, 06:30 PM
What about Patrick Guinness' remark to Gerard, "I think we are DF41 . . ."?

McEvoy and Bradley just say (see above) "The surname Guinness is potentially associated with a minor McGuinness lineage but is not obviously connected to any of the bigger clusters."

Might help if we knew what R13b in 2006 is today. :biggrin1:

ArmandoR1b
10-28-2015, 07:28 PM
McEvoy and Bradley just say (see above) "The surname Guinness is potentially associated with a minor McGuinness lineage but is not obviously connected to any of the bigger clusters."

Might help if we knew what R13b in 2006 is today. :biggrin1:

R1b3 is from the 2002 YCC tree. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155271/ The SNP it represented was M65 which was taken off the ISOGG tree in 2012. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR12.html

Jean M
10-28-2015, 07:59 PM
R1b3 is from the 2002 YCC tree. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155271/ The SNP it represented was M65 which was taken off the ISOGG tree in 2012. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR12.html

So in 2011 it was just below P312/S116. Essentially then this was P312?

ArmandoR1b
10-28-2015, 08:06 PM
So in 2011 it was just below P312/S116. Essentially then this was P312?

It was considered a private SNP. I don't know if anyone that has turned out positive for it has had other SNP testing to determine where it really sits. Hopefully someone else can fill us in on that.

GoldenHind
10-28-2015, 11:21 PM
So in 2011 it was just below P312/S116. Essentially then this was P312?

I have dug through an old study from 2006 where R1b3 is defined as M269.

Jean M
10-28-2015, 11:28 PM
I have dug through an old study from 2006 where R1b3 is defined as M269.

So not all that informative, as I rather expected. But thanks for digging it out. We know where we are now.

rms2
10-28-2015, 11:48 PM
Yeah, I remember encountering R1b3 as signifying M269 in some of the older studies back when I first got into genetic genealogy. What I was wondering about is the possibility the Guinnesses are DF41. Of course, it doesn't sound like Patrick Guinness knew for sure. But who guesses they're DF41+ unless they fit into one of the established DF41+ clusters?

Anyway, if it turns out they are DF41+, I'm hitting them up to host a DF41 convention at the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. :beerchug:

Heber
10-28-2015, 11:49 PM
What about Patrick Guinness' remark to Gerard, "I think we are DF41 . . ."?

I have asked Patrick to clarify the DF41 result and also upgrade to R1b Backbone or Big Y.
As he was the original sponsor of the McEvoy study and a keen historian I am sure his response will be positive.
I also referred him to Jeans book.

rms2
10-28-2015, 11:57 PM
I have asked Patrick to clarify the DF41 result and also upgrade to R1b Backbone or Big Y.
As he was the original sponsor of the McEvoy study and a keen historian I am sure his response will be positive.
I also referred him to Jeans book.

Thanks! I hope he turns out to be DF41+; that would be awesome. We seem to be one of the smaller DF13 subclades, but it would be cool to add the Guinness family to the royal Stewarts in our list of famous DF41+ folks.

Krefter
10-30-2015, 09:34 PM
I assume some of you know about Celtic inscription in SW Portugal from 600 BC. It's mentioned in 37:29 (https://youtu.be/6pDHd7rCILE) of The Celts: Blood, Iron and Sacrifice - Episode 1. Add to this Herodutus in circa 500 BC said Celts lived from Danube to SW Portugal.

The Hallstatt=Proto Celtic theory is dead. This proves Celtic is something older and not originating with Hallstatt culture or any culture similar to it. The culture was just was a package of styles that grew popular in an already Celtic speaking world. Neil Oliver also pointed out Bronze age swords from Britain have style that when in Iron age swords is considered Celtic-specific.

If we assume Celtic speakers existed from Hungary-Ireland-Portugal-Germany and everywhere in-between in 500 BC, Celtic languages must have expanded either in the Bronze age or earlier. Iron obviously didn't ignite the spread of Celtic languages so certainly before the Iron age. I like reading your guys ideas, Bell beaker is totally possible IMO. Celtic languages could be very old. There's little documentation of Celtic languages outside of the British Isles. What evidence is there in linguistics the language could not have expanded over 4,000 years ago?

anglesqueville
10-30-2015, 10:22 PM
What evidence is there in linguistics the language could not have expanded over 4,000 years ago?

Good question, but before this one: is there now unanimity on the existence of an italo-celtic family? If yes ( what I'm tempted to believe) when can we date the separation between italic and celtic? We need a linguist, perhaps Agamemnon?

edit: if I recall, Chang dates this separation before 4000 BP ( so 6000 y ago), but we need a pro for a serious advice.

Jean M
10-30-2015, 11:44 PM
I assume some of you know about Celtic inscription in SW Portugal from 600 BC. It's mentioned in 37:29 (https://youtu.be/6pDHd7rCILE) of The Celts: Blood, Iron and Sacrifice - Episode 1.

Prof Koch argues that the inscriptions in the South-Western palaeohispanic script are Celtic. He is not the first to suggest this, but few other linguists agree. The limited nature of the inscriptions makes any identification of the language uncertain. However there is general agreement that embedded in these inscriptions are Celtic personal names. So there were Celts in the vicinity, for whom we have other evidence also dating before La Tene.


Add to this Herodutus in circa 500 BC said Celts lived from Danube to SW Portugal.

Not exactly. It is a bit more complicated than that. You can read all about it in Blood of the Celts, or if you prefer, wait for my lecture in Dublin "Who are the Celts" to be uploaded to YouTube in late November by Maurice Gleeson. Here is one slide from it, showing early Greek references to the Celts:

6478

rms2
10-31-2015, 01:57 PM
I assume some of you know about Celtic inscription in SW Portugal from 600 BC. It's mentioned in 37:29 (https://youtu.be/6pDHd7rCILE) of The Celts: Blood, Iron and Sacrifice - Episode 1. Add to this Herodutus in circa 500 BC said Celts lived from Danube to SW Portugal.

The Hallstatt=Proto Celtic theory is dead. This proves Celtic is something older and not originating with Hallstatt culture or any culture similar to it. The culture was just was a package of styles that grew popular in an already Celtic speaking world. Neil Oliver also pointed out Bronze age swords from Britain have style that when in Iron age swords is considered Celtic-specific.

If we assume Celtic speakers existed from Hungary-Ireland-Portugal-Germany and everywhere in-between in 500 BC, Celtic languages must have expanded either in the Bronze age or earlier. Iron obviously didn't ignite the spread of Celtic languages so certainly before the Iron age. I like reading your guys ideas, Bell beaker is totally possible IMO. Celtic languages could be very old. There's little documentation of Celtic languages outside of the British Isles. What evidence is there in linguistics the language could not have expanded over 4,000 years ago?

I agree. I argued pretty much the same thing over in that thread on R1b, Beaker, and Gimbutas and was subsequently engulfed in a bank of pettifoggery. I think it is likely that an early form of Celtic spread with the Beaker Folk in the mid to late 3rd millennium BC. I guess the correct use of the linguistic terminology would be to call it pre-Proto-Celtic, since I now understand Proto-Celtic to mean the state of the language in the generation just before it broke up into its constituent daughter languages. (That means most of what we talk about when we discuss the "Proto-Indo-Europeans" really means we are discussing the "pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans", but c'est la vie.)

Anyway, here is an Indo-European tree from linguist Don Ringe that shows pre-Proto-Celtic diverging from its Italo-Celtic parent sometime in the 3rd millennium BC. If it is right, early Celtic could very well have arisen and spread among the Beaker Folk.

6493

Here is Warnow's tree that shows pre-Proto-Celtic diverging from Italo-Celtic around 2500 BC.

6494

anglesqueville
10-31-2015, 02:44 PM
I agree. I argued pretty much the same thing over in that thread on R1b, Beaker, and Gimbutas and was subsequently engulfed in a bank of pettifoggery. I think it is likely that an early form of Celtic spread with the Beaker Folk in the mid to late 3rd millennium BC. I guess the correct use of the linguistic terminology would be to call it pre-Proto-Celtic, since I now understand Proto-Celtic to mean the state of the language in the generation just before it broke up into its constituent daughter languages. (That means most of what we talk about when we discuss the "Proto-Indo-Europeans" really means we are discussing the "pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans", but c'est la vie.)

Anyway, here is an Indo-European tree from linguist Don Ringe that shows pre-Proto-Celtic diverging from its Italo-Celtic parent sometime in the 3rd millennium BC. If it is right, early Celtic could very well have arisen and spread among the Beaker Folk.

6493

Here is Warnow's tree that shows pre-Proto-Celtic diverging from Italo-Celtic around 2500 BC.

6494

Chang ( and others) gives: 6495. in my (amateur) view point, that seems very early, and -2500 seems more credible.

rms2
10-31-2015, 04:20 PM
From David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, p. 57:



Anatolian had split away before 3500 BCE, Italic and Celtic before 2500 BCE, Greek after 2500 BCE, and Proto-Indo-Iranian by 2000 BCE. Those are not meant to be exact dates, but they are in the right sequence, are linked to dated inscriptions in three places (Greek, Anatolian, and Old Indic), and make sense.


From The Celtic Realms, by Myles Dillon and Nora Chadwick, page 5:



About 2000 BC came the Bell-Beaker people, whose burials are in single graves, with individual grave-goods. The remarkable Wessex Culture of the Bronze Age which appears about 1500 BC is thought to be based upon this tradition. The grave-goods suggest the existence of a warrior aristocracy 'with a graded series of obligations of service . . . through a military nobility down to craftsmen and peasants', as in the Homeric society. This is the sort of society which is described in the Irish sagas, and there is no reason why so early a date for the coming of the Celts should be impossible. We shall see that there are considerations of language and culture that tend rather to support it.


From The Celtic Realms, page 214:



If we suppose that the Celts emerge as a separate people about 2000 BC, Goidelic may be a very early form of Celtic, and Gaulish (with British) a later form; and the first Celtic settlements of the British Isles may be dated from the early Bronze Age (c. 1800 BC), and even identified with the coming of the Beaker-Folk in the first half of the second millennium. This was suggested by Abercromby long ago (Bronze Age Pottery ii 99) and more recently by Crawford, Loth and Hubert. It would mean a lapse of time, a thousand years, between the first settlements and the Belgic invasions that Caesar mentions, quite long enough to explain the absence of any trace of Goidelic in Britain outside the areas of later Irish settlement. It would accord well with the archaic character of Irish tradition, and the survival in Ireland of Indo-European features of language and culture that recur only in India and Persia, and, for language, in Hittite or in the Tocharian dialects of Central Asia.


From The History of the Celtic People, by French archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:



But whence did the Goidels come, and when did they come? Where must we look for their earliest home on the Continent and their starting-point? Probably they came from north of the Brythonic domain, and it is to them that tradition refers when it tells that the Celts used to live on the low coasts of the North Sea. They must have left those shores very early, for hardly a trace of them remains there (p. 169).
. . . In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.
They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.
The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.
. . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country.

Krefter
10-31-2015, 04:55 PM
From The History of the Celtic People, by French archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:

That archaeologist lived some 100 years ago but I trust what he says. The fact the Neolithic inhabitants of the Isles were of typical Neolithic skull-shapes convinces me the ANE there isn't from Motala-types(like Maju has proposed) and the fact the arrival of Beaker folk brought a new skull type convinces me they introduced ANE to the Isles. Bell beaker in Germany was 100% R1b, so it isn't a stretch to say L21 came with Beaker folk. Saying they brought Celtic languages though is hard to prove. They could have spoken an Indo European language that was later replaed by Celtic. This happened in East Europe. Just because Corded Ware brought R1a and ANE to Poland doesn't mean they brought Slavic languages.

rms2
10-31-2015, 08:45 PM
That archaeologist lived some 100 years ago but I trust what he says. The fact the Neolithic inhabitants of the Isles were of typical Neolithic skull-shapes convinces me the ANE there isn't from Motala-types(like Maju has proposed) and the fact the arrival of Beaker folk brought a new skull type convinces me they introduced ANE to the Isles. Bell beaker in Germany was 100% R1b, so it isn't a stretch to say L21 came with Beaker folk. Saying they brought Celtic languages though is hard to prove. They could have spoken an Indo European language that was later replaed by Celtic. This happened in East Europe. Just because Corded Ware brought R1a and ANE to Poland doesn't mean they brought Slavic languages.

The problem is that Beaker is really the last significant migration into the Isles prior to the Roman period. So, who brought Celtic, particularly to Ireland, if not Beaker? It isn't likely that it was imposed by some small elite group.

Kwheaton
10-31-2015, 11:41 PM
The problem is that Beaker is really the last significant migration into the Isles prior to the Roman period. So, who brought Celtic, particularly to Ireland, if not Beaker? It isn't likely that it was imposed by some small elite group.

Excellent question. Perhaps "THE" question we would all like answered....if we could personally exhume some of those ancient graves and get their DNA extracted we would. :behindsofa:

I happen to be reading an interesting (although I would think controversial book) The Discovery of Middle Earth: Mapping the Lost World of the Celts by Graham Robb. pg 169 he asks "...and the question to be asked about the Celtic inhabitants of Ireland or the Iberian Peninsula is not, 'Where did they come from., but when did they become Celtic?" and on the previous pages "Woven in amongst these grand and ragged tales of tribes ranging over a continent are all the microscopic mysteries of trade, the interminable journeys of trinkets and treasures carried by merchants or passed from hand to hand, stolen, sold or copied. Every museum has a treasure trove of insoluble engimas."

Jean M
11-01-2015, 08:38 AM
Excellent question. Perhaps "THE" question we would all like answered....if we could personally exhume some of those ancient graves and get their DNA extracted we would.

It won't be long Kelly. Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin has samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Ireland in his ancient DNA lab. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5334-Ancient-DNA-Ireland. All he was willing to say at GGI 2015 was that there was massive population replacement.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-01-2015, 09:54 AM
It won't be long Kelly. Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin has samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Ireland in his ancient DNA lab. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5334-Ancient-DNA-Ireland. All he was willing to say at GGI 2015 was that there was massive population replacement.

That's great news to get some aDNA from the western end of things !

- id imagine mesolitiic lineages would be I2; but would there also be any C (like in Southern Europe)?
- would the Neolithic be dominated by the usual suspects – G2a, H2, etc
- Will there be any stratigraphic pattern in the arrival of different R1b lineages ?
- always room for some surprises/curveballs !

Jean, did Don intimate when results might be publishable?

rms2
11-01-2015, 12:00 PM
It won't be long Kelly. Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin has samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Ireland in his ancient DNA lab. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5334-Ancient-DNA-Ireland. All he was willing to say at GGI 2015 was that there was massive population replacement.

What he was willing to say was pretty significant. I'm guessing that indicates that R1b-L21 arrived in the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age with the Beaker Folk, and the "massive population replacement" ensued.

I really would like to be around when the death blow is finally administered to the old R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge-We're-All-Basque-Fishermen idea.

lgmayka
11-01-2015, 12:56 PM
- always room for some surprises/curveballs !
Might we hope for an ancient example of the mysterious Q-YP1669 clade (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1669/), which separated from the rest of Q-M25 almost 17,000 years ago? YF01677 has Northern Irish patrilineage.

Kwheaton
11-01-2015, 01:32 PM
It won't be long Kelly. Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin has samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Ireland in his ancient DNA lab. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5334-Ancient-DNA-Ireland. All he was willing to say at GGI 2015 was that there was massive population replacement.

Thank You Jean! Based on previous results and speculations I am sure some additional complications to earlier theories are in store. I don't know why and I don't know which clade it will be--- but I fully expect some reverese migration somewhere along one of the lines. Where they immigrated from the mainland thousands of years ago into the Isles and a few SNPS later migrated back to the mainland and then some more back and forth just to confuse everyone for the next few decades. :-) And of course give us something to talk about!

rms2
11-01-2015, 02:22 PM
I think the adjective massive in the term massive replacement is key. Which haplogroup is currently massive in Ireland? If Dan Bradley was talking about y-dna, then I think we can infer he was talking about how R1b, probably R1b-L21, replaced whatever y haplogroup(s) preceded it.

It seems less likely that he was talking about mtDNA, but I suppose that is possible, or that he was talking about some combination of the two. A massive change in autosomal dna doesn't seem possible without a corresponding massive change in y-dna or mtDNA or both.

A big surprise would be news that R1b-L21 arrived during the Iron Age, but that seems far less likely than a Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age advent with the Beaker Folk.

Jean M
11-01-2015, 08:30 PM
I really would like to be around when the death blow is finally administered to the old R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge-We're-All-Basque-Fishermen idea.

Certainly was knifed in the back yesterday by both Wolfgang Haak and Martin Richards. Poor old Stephen Oppenheimer tried to shake Haak and got nowhere.

Jean M
11-01-2015, 08:34 PM
Jean, did Don intimate when results might be publishable?

He did not say. I'm afraid that absolutely nothing else was forthcoming. In fact he was very reluctant to say anything and only muttered a "yes" in response to a direct question from the audience of "was there mass population replacement?" or some such wording.

Jean M
11-01-2015, 08:39 PM
I really would like to be around when the death blow is finally administered to the old R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge-We're-All-Basque-Fishermen idea.

I'm still typing up my notes, but here is Martin Richards on the topic:

For the last 15 years, geneticists have had the idea of a Mesolithic Atlantic façade appearing in modern DNA. That turned out to be completely wrong, or at least highly questionable. Y-DNA R1b is not Mesolithic. Linked to Bronze Age component. The major star-burst showing massive expansion can be dated to 4,000-5,000 years ago.

rms2
11-01-2015, 08:43 PM
I'm still typing up my notes, but here is Martin Richards on the topic:

For the last 15 years, geneticists have had the idea of a Mesolithic Atlantic façade appearing in modern DNA. That turned out to be completely wrong, or at least highly questionable. Y-DNA R1b is not Mesolithic. Linked to Bronze Age component. The major star-burst showing massive expansion can be dated to 4,000-5,000 years ago.

That is really good to hear. Thanks!

Krefter
11-01-2015, 08:58 PM
I'm still typing up my notes, but here is Martin Richards on the topic:

For the last 15 years, geneticists have had the idea of a Mesolithic Atlantic façade appearing in modern DNA. That turned out to be completely wrong, or at least highly questionable. Y-DNA R1b is not Mesolithic. Linked to Bronze Age component. The major star-burst showing massive expansion can be dated to 4,000-5,000 years ago.

Did she get Ancient DNA or is she talking about modern DNA?

rms2
11-01-2015, 09:04 PM
Did she get Ancient DNA or is she talking about modern DNA?

Most of that, except for the last bit about the star-burst, wouldn't make sense in terms of modern y-dna alone. Modern y-dna, plus Zhivotovsky's mutation rate, was what led them to their erroneous "Basque fishermen" conclusion in the first place (plus the old 19th century idea that the Basques were a Paleolithic relic population).

Jean M
11-01-2015, 09:17 PM
Did she get Ancient DNA or is she talking about modern DNA?

She? Prof. Richards is a male. His talk included recent ancient DNA papers by other people (including Wolfgang Haak, who also spoke at the same conference.) His own aDNA laboratory is not yet in service, but should be soon. The star-burst refers to the R1b tree, which of course has been put together from modern and ancient DNA, but mainly the former.

razyn
11-01-2015, 09:20 PM
I assume that Jean is posting about this conference: http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Centre/2015/rhaglen-ysgafn-ddwyieithog-2015.pdf

Can't wait to hear about the rest of it. How did Koch do, and so on.

Heber
11-01-2015, 10:01 PM
It won't be long Kelly. Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin has samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Ireland in his ancient DNA lab. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5334-Ancient-DNA-Ireland. All he was willing to say at GGI 2015 was that there was massive population replacement.

Professor Bradley of TCD is collaborating with Professor Pinhasy of UCD. The Pinhasy Lab is in University College Dublin, Conway Institute for Biomolecular and Biomedical Research. It currently has over 1000 ancient DNA samples (989 listed below)(360 from Hungarian Plains, Neolithic).

https://sites.google.com/site/pinhasierc/home/samples

https://sites.google.com/site/pinhasierc/home

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ancient-dna/

I don't see the (~20) Irish samples in his list so they are probably a separate batch. Professor Bradley specifically mentioned they were focused on NGS and not Y analysis.

Jean M
11-01-2015, 10:08 PM
I assume that Jean is posting about this conference: http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Centre/2015/rhaglen-ysgafn-ddwyieithog-2015.pdf

Can't wait to hear about the rest of it. How did Koch do, and so on.

Yes - that is the conference. I started posting about it in the appropriate place: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015/page13

But then I was sidetracked by the conversation over here, which is actually supposed to be about my book. Sorry. I'll continue over there.

GoldenHind
11-02-2015, 12:03 AM
I really would like to be around when the death blow is finally administered to the old R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge-We're-All-Basque-Fishermen idea.

In my opinion, we all were around for it, as it occurred several years ago. It's just that some in the scientific community were very slow to realize it, and there may be a few who still haven't worked it out.

Kwheaton
11-02-2015, 12:31 AM
In my opinion, we all were around for it, as it occurred several years ago. It's just that some in the scientific community were very slow to realize it, and there may be a few who still haven't worked it out.

Extremely well put! :amen:

Krefter
11-02-2015, 12:47 AM
In my opinion, we all were around for it, as it occurred several years ago. It's just that some in the scientific community were very slow to realize it, and there may be a few who still haven't worked it out.

Even if we get R1b-P312 in Ukraine dating 3000 BC and 100s of samples from all over West Europe during that time with 0 P312, some will still say P312 is of Neolithic origin.

anglesqueville
11-02-2015, 12:14 PM
For info, my customer review of "Blood of the Celts", on the french Amazon:
6506

Romilius
11-02-2015, 02:57 PM
Even if we get R1b-P312 in Ukraine dating 3000 BC and 100s of samples from all over West Europe during that time with 0 P312, some will still say P312 is of Neolithic origin.

I think the same thing: ideology is hard to die.

The Academics are slow only because they follow the scientific path of evidence. I would only add "Very good, you brave people!" to all the heroes who understood the origins of R1b many years ago and against a crowd of Iberianists!

Jean M
11-02-2015, 03:13 PM
For info, my customer review of "Blood of the Celts", on the french Amazon:
6506

My goodness! A rave review! :) Kind of you to let me know. I'm really sorry that there is no French version. By the way, my website is ancestraljourneys.org, not Ancestraljourneys.com.

tchekitchek
11-02-2015, 03:57 PM
That's sad there is some kind of taboo about genetics in France, even in the more "right-wing" sphere (more open to genetics), the study of genomics is unknown.

anglesqueville
11-02-2015, 04:05 PM
My goodness! A rave review! :) Kind of you to let me know. I'm really sorry that there is no French version. By the way, my website is ancestraljourneys.org, not Ancestraljourneys.com.

Really sorry for the ".com" (we are all so conditioned...)

rms2
11-02-2015, 07:14 PM
In my opinion, we all were around for it, as it occurred several years ago. It's just that some in the scientific community were very slow to realize it, and there may be a few who still haven't worked it out.

There are some still clinging to hope for the Iberian Refuge, since no R1b-L51 has yet turned up in Yamnaya and it can be argued that Beaker originated in Iberia. I agree that the preponderance of the evidence has been there awhile, but the final, decisive, indisputable hammer blow is still waiting to fall.

Romilius
11-03-2015, 12:36 PM
That's sad there is some kind of taboo about genetics in France, even in the more "right-wing" sphere (more open to genetics), the study of genomics is unknown.

Obviously, I'm always asking myself why is there the taboo and, above all, why is there a politicization of genetics: science hasn't got any political colour.

V-X
11-03-2015, 01:28 PM
why is there a politicization of genetics
In France at least it's because of historical reasons such as the holocaust.


science hasn't got any political colour.
People want science to be free from bias, but it often isn't. In Britain for example some far right groups use the idea of "indigenous Britons", which will always revolve around celts to a certain extent.

tchekitchek
11-03-2015, 03:22 PM
In France at least it's because of historical reasons such as the holocaust.
Holocaust is used as a moral pretext for that (which makes no sense), but the real reason is that the French model doesn't recognize the idea of race, the second reason is the patronat in the 70's wanted to attract cheap labour from former colonies and thus extend the French citizenship to a wider variety of people, mostly extra-europeans, and pushed the idea that French ethnics don't exist as a way to promote tolerance towards these newcomers.
Boris Le Lay, a breton activist, was condamned to 6 months of jailtime for stating that "There were no Black celts".

rms2
11-03-2015, 03:27 PM
. . .


People want science to be free from bias, but it often isn't. In Britain for example some far right groups use the idea of "indigenous Britons", which will always revolve around celts to a certain extent.

What does that have to do with science, since apparently what those people mean is "people whose families have been here a long long time", as opposed to relatively recent immigrants from the Third World?

That's not a good example of people twisting scientific evidence, or the interpretation of scientific evidence, to suit their biases.

A better example would be the manipulation of climate data by scientists at the University of East Anglia and by Michael Mann at the University of Pennsylvania.

Dubhthach
11-03-2015, 03:48 PM
People want science to be free from bias, but it often isn't. In Britain for example some far right groups use the idea of "indigenous Britons", which will always revolve around celts to a certain extent.

In my experience British "Nationalists" tend to be of the "That Celtic language you are speaking is a dead language, stop speaking it and speak English!" variety.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 04:16 PM
In Britain for example some far right groups use the idea of "indigenous Britons", which will always revolve around celts to a certain extent.

No - Celts were written out of the scenario. The BNP types were delighted by the vision of us all being descended from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, which was propounded by archaeologists for decades. In this vision the Celtic languages just floated in on the tide and the Anglo-Saxons barely made an impact genetically. Oppenheimer took it one stage further by going for the lunatic fringe idea that English had been spoken in England before the Anglo-Saxons arrived. The whole thrust of this rubbish is to deny that the English are actually late-comers in the long perspective.

Romilius
11-03-2015, 04:30 PM
Boris Le Lay, a breton activist, was condamned to 6 months of jailtime for stating that "There were no Black celts".

6 months for having said a thing like that?

I don't see any racist intention in it... for what I know Bretons are against the central French government, so it is mainly a political and cultural war, not an ethnic one.

I live in Ethiopia (son of Italian parents, sons of other Italians and so on... in Ethiopia for three generations) and I speak Italian with many people here: nobody wants to kill me or put me in jail because I'm Italian and in the past my people made trouble in that part of Africa. Sometimes, someone ask me if I want to return in Italy, a country from where my ancestors flew many decades ago. From what I read... well... Ethiopia is far better than some European countries in civil rights! So, another reason not to return to my "homeland".

V-X
11-03-2015, 05:42 PM
The whole thrust of this rubbish is to deny that the English are actually late-comers in the long perspective.

Exactly, and so if and when it comes out that celts have been in western Europe and Britain much longer than was realised, they will grab at that chance to spout more rubbish.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 06:11 PM
Exactly, and so if and when it comes out that celts have been in western Europe and Britain much longer than was realised,

Longer than was realised? The anti-migrationist view had the Celts descended from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers populating the British Isles as the glaciers receded! (That is in the days when archaeologists were willing to admit that Celtic-speakers should be called Celts.) The idea that real, live farmers brought farming into Britain was resisted. The idea that real, live actual humans brought the Celtic languages at any time was resisted. The idea that more than a handful of actual Angles and Saxons arrived in lowland Britain was resisted. We were told that everyone else was a native excitedly adopting the new fashions from Jutland and the Low Countries. From the point of view of the dotty far right, the news from ancient DNA is all bad. Do we care?

V-X
11-03-2015, 06:16 PM
Longer than was realised?
They will seize upon anything and try to twist it to fit. You are looking for logic where there is none. :)


Do we care?
No but science in general is affected by politics whether we care or not. Afterall the government funds a lot of research, so if something doesn't fit their ideological needs or tick the right PR boxes then good luck getting a grant.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 06:53 PM
No but science in general is affected by politics whether we care or not. Afterall the government funds a lot of research, so if something doesn't fit their ideological needs or tick the right PR boxes then good luck getting a grant.

You are under the impression that the Fascists hold the key to government money boxes? In Britain? The BNP hasn't even one MP.

As for research on prehistoric/early historic migration - it suddenly turned fashionable round about 2007. One university after another started competing for cash to explore the topic. This was not just in Britain, but across Europe. Ireland managed to land some big research grants. I maintain a list of academic projects in progress on aspects of the topic, but it is far from complete: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/migrationprojects.shtml

Romilius
11-03-2015, 07:16 PM
You are under the impression that the Fascists hold the key to government money boxes? In Britain? The BNP hasn't even one MP.

As for research on prehistoric/early historic migration - it suddenly turned fashionable round about 2007. One university after another started competing for cash to explore the topic. This was not just in Britain, but across Europe. Ireland managed to land some big research grants. I maintain a list of academic projects in progress on aspects of the topic, but it is far from complete: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/migrationprojects.shtml

Every occasion is good to thank you for your great work online...Ancestral Journeys is, in my opinion, the best encyclopedia of genetic researches.

Dubhthach
11-04-2015, 09:46 AM
Given how anti-Irish (and connotations to things such as Irish language -- a living Celtic language) the BNP historically are I can't see them doing an about face. "British" nationalism is from afar very much a sorta "English nationalism", given that speakers of Celtic languages (Irish, Welsh, Scottish Gaidhlig) were deemed as "other" in historic concepts of English I doubt that they will suddenly embrace them, particulary given how virulent some of them are today about "money wasted on dead languages, speak English!"

Jean M
11-04-2015, 10:15 AM
"British" nationalism is from afar very much a sorta "English nationalism"

It looks the same in close-up, believe me.

rms2
11-04-2015, 12:22 PM
. . .

No but science in general is affected by politics whether we care or not. Afterall the government funds a lot of research, so if something doesn't fit their ideological needs or tick the right PR boxes then good luck getting a grant.

I don't know about Britain and its "dotty far right", but I do know about my own country and its dotty far left, and what you wrote is certainly true of our government.

V-X
11-04-2015, 12:29 PM
You are under the impression that the Fascists hold the key to government money boxes?

Some people would make a joke about David Cameron here but not me.

All political parties and groups have ideologies and ideas that they like to promote and other ideas that they would prefer weren't mentioned at all. This always filters down into science. Just look at the situation in America with evolution and creationism.

rms2
11-04-2015, 12:37 PM
Some people would make a joke about David Cameron here but not me.

All political parties and groups have ideologies and ideas that they like to promote and other ideas that they would prefer weren't mentioned at all. This always filters down into science. Just look at the situation in America with evolution and creationism.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but in the USA scientists who are creationists or even merely entertain the notion of intelligent design are more often than not hounded right out of their jobs, especially if those jobs involve a government paycheck or grant. A few years ago Ben Stein made a documentary film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g) on the subject. (I'm not passing judgment on the film one way or the other since I have never actually seen it.)

Jean M
11-04-2015, 12:41 PM
All political parties and groups have ideologies and ideas that they like to promote and other ideas that they would prefer weren't mentioned at all.

Yes we know. I merely doubt the power of any British politician to stop me using the word Celts about (shock, horror) people in the British Isles. You may have noticed that I'm already in print doing so, and still breathing.

I somehow doubt that David William Donald Cameron, son of the Scottish Ian Donald Cameron and Mary Fleur (née Mount), whose mother was a Llewellyn, would have any great desire to stop me. Of course he doesn't want Scottish independence. Neither does our former PM, the Scottish Gordon Brown. But that is another story.

V-X
11-04-2015, 12:48 PM
I merely doubt the power of any British politician to stop me using the word Celts

If you refer back to my initial comment, I said "science" in general, rather than specifically one aspect of it.

Edit: Anyway the initial discussion was about the taboo around genetics in France, so obviously some people close to this debate are dealing with this problem of political bias, even if you aren't.

Jean M
11-04-2015, 01:33 PM
Anyway the initial discussion was about the taboo around genetics in France, so obviously some people close to this debate are dealing with this problem of political bias, even if you aren't.

They certainly are and I have every sympathy. It might mean that a French translation of Blood of the Celts does not come out. So that topic is at least tangentially related to the title of this thread.

Perhaps I should mention that politics per se is not permitted on the open area of this forum.

MacUalraig
11-04-2015, 02:13 PM
Yes we know. I merely doubt the power of any British politician to stop me using the word Celts about (shock, horror) people in the British Isles. You may have noticed that I'm already in print doing so, and still breathing.

I somehow doubt that David William Donald Cameron, son of the Scottish Ian Donald Cameron and Mary Fleur (née Mount), whose mother was a Llewellyn, would have any great desire to stop me. Of course he doesn't want Scottish independence. Neither does our former PM, the Scottish Gordon Brown. But that is another story.

Nor Tony Blair before him, also Scottish despite his deceptive accent ;-)

Dubhthach
11-04-2015, 03:15 PM
CAMSHRÓN—XII—Cameron; Irish 'cam' and 'srón,' i.e., wry-nosed, an epithet like Caimbéal, which see; the name of a distinguished Scottish clan. The Camerons were seated in Inverness and were divided into four septs, of which the best known are the Camerons of Lochiel. In the civil wars of the 17th century, the Camerons were loyal to the Stuart cause, and in 1745 the whole clan was out for Prince Charlie.

---

"Crooked nose" might be better translation of epitaph, given the bould David and all ;)

Of course the other irony of ironies, is that the word Tory is a borrowing from Irish into English.

MacUalraig
11-04-2015, 04:17 PM
http://www.clan-cameron.org/septs.html#KENNEDY

rossa
11-04-2015, 05:22 PM
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but in the USA scientists who are creationists or even merely entertain the notion of intelligent design are more often than not hounded right out of their jobs, especially if those jobs involve a government paycheck or grant. A few years ago Ben Stein made a documentary film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g) on the subject. (I'm not passing judgment on the film one way or the other since I have never actually seen it.)

I haven't seen that either but he tried to claim that Charles Darwin was responsible for the holocaust, so looks like it's probably best avoided.

rncambron
11-04-2015, 08:08 PM
The Prime Minister's ancestors were tenant farmers in North East Scotland.
It is well documented that the Camerons of North East Scotland were descended from Lowland families.Those Lowland families took their surname from the five place names in Central and East Scotland containing ancient versions of 'Cameron'.These were of topographical origin.(Cam Brun Q Celtic; Cam Bryn P Celtic; meaning crooked hill)Nothing to do with the Lochaber Camerons in the West of Scotland.
Some speculate the de Cambrun family from Abbeyville in France 12th century who owned land in Perthshire and the North East were the ancestors of the Camerons in the North East.This is based on a documented 14th century marriage and subsequent descendancy.
Camshron as a source for the name appears once in the early record(Dunfermline Registers)as a description of a serf.Given his name is different from that of his father and his son it has been assumed it was a nickname.The Victorians lapped this up hence the mythology.
The Lochiel Camerons,so called Chiefs of the so called Clan, had members of the Maelanfhaidh as their ancestors.They did not use use Cameron as a name until they had to 'latinise' their origin to gain a Charter to their Lochaber lands circa 1500.
I could go through the same story for the Campbells but I would think you're bored by now.

Jean M
04-26-2016, 05:13 PM
Dates in my diary:


9 June 2016, 7-30 p.m. I will be giving a talk at the York Festival of Ideas entitled "Who are the Celts?" This will not be an exact copy of the one in Dublin, I promise.
21 October 2016 7.30 p.m. I will be giving a talk to the Reading and District Welsh Society entitled "Who are the Celts?"

alan
04-26-2016, 08:30 PM
Nor Tony Blair before him, also Scottish despite his deceptive accent ;-)

though neither Tony Blair or his father have any direct Scottish blood. His father was adopted by a Scottish family in Glasgow as a baby. The baby was born out of wedlock to a pair of well to do English actors. At a later stage those actors married and tried to get the child back but were not permitted to due to the passing of time. Tony Blair's mother side is some for of unusual protestant Irish-Jewish mix. Tony was born in Scotland but moved to England after just a day or two. He was sent back to a boarding school in Scotland but it is more of an upper class English bubble within Scotland rather than Scottish. He is technically Scottish due to birth and his first couple of days of life but he doesnt consider himself Scottish and Scots generally dont consider him Scottish either (probably partly because he became a hate figure as his period in power went on).

His deputy Gordon Brown is the real McCoy though and about as Scottish as you can be - born and brought up in Scotland to a Scottish family and a father who was a Presbyterian Church of Scotland minister. Educated in Scottish university. He always represented a constituency in Fife. Major weirdo though LOL

alan
04-26-2016, 08:33 PM
The Prime Minister's ancestors were tenant farmers in North East Scotland.
It is well documented that the Camerons of North East Scotland were descended from Lowland families.Those Lowland families took their surname from the five place names in Central and East Scotland containing ancient versions of 'Cameron'.These were of topographical origin.(Cam Brun Q Celtic; Cam Bryn P Celtic; meaning crooked hill)Nothing to do with the Lochaber Camerons in the West of Scotland.
Some speculate the de Cambrun family from Abbeyville in France 12th century who owned land in Perthshire and the North East were the ancestors of the Camerons in the North East.This is based on a documented 14th century marriage and subsequent descendancy.
Camshron as a source for the name appears once in the early record(Dunfermline Registers)as a description of a serf.Given his name is different from that of his father and his son it has been assumed it was a nickname.The Victorians lapped this up hence the mythology.
The Lochiel Camerons,so called Chiefs of the so called Clan, had members of the Maelanfhaidh as their ancestors.They did not use use Cameron as a name until they had to 'latinise' their origin to gain a Charter to their Lochaber lands circa 1500.
I could go through the same story for the Campbells but I would think you're bored by now.

Very true - many names have both highland and lowland lines which have no connection. People tend to try and identify with the highland line due to the romantic image, tartans etc even when its obvious they are from the lowland line. A good example I came across doing genealogy is that many early parish register records of Camerons are of a family from the village of Cameron in Fife.

alan
04-26-2016, 08:40 PM
Tony Blair's father was born Charles Leonard Augustus Parsons to English actors Charles Parsons and Mary Augusta Ridgway Bridson. I think I recall reading they were from fairly posh backgrounds.

GoldenHind
04-27-2016, 12:54 AM
Tony Blair's father was born Charles Leonard Augustus Parsons to English actors Charles Parsons and Mary Augusta Ridgway Bridson. I think I recall reading they were from fairly posh backgrounds.

I hardly need to tell you that working class people in Britain usually don't give their children three given names.

Jean M
04-28-2016, 02:33 PM
More information on the talk in York, and indeed the whole Festival of Ideas, is online: http://yorkfestivalofideas.com/2016/talks/who-are-the-celts/

Anath
04-29-2016, 06:07 AM
I hardly need to tell you that working class people in Britain usually don't give their children three given names.

I have 4 given names and i'm not posh xD my mum was just indecisive. Augustus is pretty damn posh though, like Humphrey and Marmaduke hahaha

Jean M
05-06-2016, 10:33 PM
There's a review of Blood of The Celts in the June issue of Current Archaeology. Guess who reviewed it? Prof Collis, Celtosceptic-in-Chief. I am all admiration at his calm.

Sales of the book on Amazon shot up after this issue dropped on reader's doormats.

A Norfolk L-M20
05-07-2016, 12:40 AM
I gave all of my kids three given names each, and I'm rural working class English - but even back then I was a genealogy addict, so they got them! :D

A.D.
05-07-2016, 02:59 PM
Blood of The Celts-
Sales of the book on Amazon shot up...
As it should. I think its' an excellent book. It's clear informative weather you agree, disagree or want to follow up on the author ideas the methodology needed is there ie every thing must be put in context and assessed, DNA language, archeology etc. I got Alice Roberts book. I am so glad she enjoyed all those nice places and saw all those interesting things. LOL

Jean M
05-08-2016, 04:14 PM
Blood of The Celts-
Sales of the book on Amazon shot up...
As it should.

Thanks for the kind words. It has in fact sold well since it came out, being a best seller in the category on and off for months. Sales became more up and down after Christmas, as one can expect after the first flurry. There was a down shift at the very end of April and early May, when people were probably on holiday, but it amused me to see an upsurge from May 5 coinciding with Prof. Collis telling readers of Current Archaeology that ancient DNA is the stuff to munch on. :)

Camulogène Rix
07-14-2016, 07:20 PM
I have just finished 'Ancestral Journeys'. Great book! the content is very rich, well presented and properly illustrated. In France, it is impossible to publish such a book because any reference to ethnic DNA is suspected of racism! I have bought 'Blood of the Celts' too and I intend to read it during my summer break. I have the feeling that, in the UK, you publish more scientific books upon this subject than in France, and it's a pity.

Jean M
07-14-2016, 08:46 PM
I have just finished 'Ancestral Journeys'. Great book! the content is very rich, well presented and properly illustrated. In France, it is impossible to publish such a book because any reference to ethnic DNA is suspected of racism! I have bought 'Blood of the Celts' too and I intend to read it during my summer break. I have the feeling that, in the UK, you publish more scientific books upon this subject than in France, and it's a pity.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, it seems unlikely that we shall see a French edition of either book. I see that you have found the section of this forum for French speakers. There seems to be a lot of complaint there about the official clamp-down in France on DNA testing.

Camulogène Rix
07-15-2016, 09:15 AM
Thank you for the kind words. Yes, it seems unlikely that we shall see a French edition of either book. I see that you have found the section of this forum for French speakers. There seems to be a lot of complaint there about the official clamp-down in France on DNA testing.

Indeed, DNA ethnic tests are stricly forbidden in France. Besides, officially, the French Republic does not recognize différences (religious, cultural, ethnic) among its citizens. The only exception is the recognition of a few regional languages (Corsican, Basque, Breton...). Nonetheless, as more and more people have a growing craze for genealogy and history, they will find ways to obtain DNA results through foreign testing companies.
The key point is to ensure quality, reliability and confidentiality of the information.
Are you preparing a new book?

Jean M
07-15-2016, 09:46 AM
Are you preparing a new book?

I cannot say at the moment.

07-15-2016, 10:37 AM
Sounds facilitating Jean, Just noticed its available on kindle. thanks.

07-15-2016, 02:00 PM
Hey Alan, about G Brown, wasn't there some kind of fuss in the papers a while ago, of him being descended from Border revers, and before that Vikings? although I cant actually find any information about his DNA test concerning haplogroups or anything. Any ideas?

Kwheaton
07-18-2016, 02:14 PM
Jean,
Still have it on my To Do to leave you a review on Blood of the Celts but you know I loved it.

But I thought I would give a plug for the Celts exhibition that was originally in London and moved to Ediburgh where I saw it in May. Honestly I was blown away by seeing the artifacts and the exquisite details. i was sorry photos aren't allowed as my favorite pieces weren't in the books. No matter the photos don't do them justice anyway. If any of you haven't seen the exhibit and have the chance GO.

It will forever cure yiu of thinking the Celtic were purely barbaric and unrefined. The Edinburgh exhibit had a number of additions pulled from the Scottish museums collection. The admission to the museum is free and the exhibit is 10 Ł. Do watch the indiviual video presentations they are excellent. (They brought me a stool!)

Jean M
07-18-2016, 02:56 PM
But I thought I would give a plug for the Celts exhibition that was originally in London

I saw it in London as my birthday treat in January. Certainly is enjoyable.

Jean M
08-15-2016, 04:22 PM
There's a review of Blood of The Celts in the September issue of British Archaeology. Surprisingly the choice of reviewer was geneticist Stephan Schiffels. After a fairly lengthy summary of the book, he concludes:


This book is an excellent read on the archaeological and linguistic side of the Celtic story. For now, the genetic side, well-presented and made accessible for the uninitiated reader, should be seen as a preparation for things to come.

He had earlier noted that I relied heavily on archaeology and to some extent linguistics, while the genetic content was limited, simply because aDNA from the Celts was seriously limited. He noted that the first publications of relevant aDNA fron the British Isles came out after the publication of Blood of the Celts. So very fair.

Camulogène Rix
09-02-2016, 08:12 PM
I cannot say at the moment.
Just after 'Ancestral Journeys', I read 'Blood of the Celts' in August. Excellent book too, congratulations! I just wonder why you do not cite, in your extensive bibliographies, Pr Georges Dumézil, the famous french academic who had spent all his life working on indo-european linguistics and mythology. He published more than twenty exciting books upon that subject and he is still a reference in this field.

Jean M
09-02-2016, 08:49 PM
Just after 'Ancestral Journeys', I read 'Blood of the Celts' in August. Excellent book too, congratulations! I just wonder why you do not cite, in your extensive bibliographies, Pr Georges Dumézil, the famous french academic who had spent all his life working on indo-european linguistics and mythology. He published more than twenty exciting books upon that subject and he is still a reference in this field.

Thank you for the kind words.

In general I use English-language sources. Publications in other languages are restricted to those that appear to be the only source for material crucial to my theme.

My theme in Ancestral Journeys was migration. Although I devote a chapter to the Indo-Europeans, this does not cover every aspect of the scholarship of generations on this vast topic. It does not touch on mythology at all. It does not pretend to be a complete history of the thinking on the Indo-Europeans. That would would need a volume in itself. :)

Jon
09-03-2016, 08:53 AM
Hi Jean! I was visiting Scotland over summer and saw copies of your books in many stores! It reminded me that I must read them, especially Blood of the Celts. May I ask, do you go into any detail in terms of L21, or even some of the subclades, e.g. DF49, Df21 etc...?

Jean M
09-03-2016, 10:12 AM
Hi Jean! I was visiting Scotland over summer and saw copies of your books in many stores! It reminded me that I must read them, especially Blood of the Celts. May I ask, do you go into any detail in terms of L21, or even some of the subclades, e.g. DF49, Df21 etc...?

The list of contents is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5003-Blood-of-the-Celts-(2015)&p=97574&viewfull=1#post97574

As you will see there, there is an appendix on surnames and DNA. This is just six and a bit pages long. So, as you can imagine, it gives only a brief account of a few surnames that have been associated with a specific subclade of L21. The tree of L21 there (see below) also includes three that are mentioned elsewhere in the text: M222 (spread of La Tene to Ireland?), S218 (Whalen/Rosser) and L1065 (Pictish?).

11341

If you trawl through this thread, you will see that the main reaction to the appendix was annoyance that I had not included more surnames. :\ So you should be warned that there is no point in buying the book if what you want is a detailed account of every known subclade of L21 and all their so far known associated surnames. It would be much better to join the L21 and subclades project at Family Tree DNA: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/background

Jean M
10-06-2016, 06:20 PM
I cannot say at the moment.

I can now reveal that my next new book will be on the Anglo-Saxons. No publication date yet, but some time in 2018 probably.

Dewsloth
10-06-2016, 06:28 PM
I can now reveal that my next new book will be on the Anglo-Saxons. No publication date yet, but some time in 2018 probably.

Excellent. I bought my dad a copy of BotC for his birthday (and I'm reading AJ now). I'm looking forward to anything you uncover on DF19 for purely selfish reasons. ;)

GMan71
10-06-2016, 10:16 PM
Excellent. I bought my dad a copy of BotC for his birthday (and I'm reading AJ now). I'm looking forward to anything you uncover on DF19 for purely selfish reasons. ;)

I was hoping it would be on Vikings and spend some time on the pre Viking origins of Scandinavians then follow their expansion within Scandinavia then Viking Age expansion elsewhere - with a nice focus on Z284 and CTS4179 and assoc subclades - for my selfish reasons:)
Happy with Anglo Saxons though and will be very happy with any chapters on interaction with the SE Welsh of Gwent and Erging ;) Regardless loved BotC and AJ so can't wait for the next book.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-07-2016, 05:41 AM
I can now reveal that my next new book will be on the Anglo-Saxons. No publication date yet, but some time in 2018 probably.

I hope you will be confirming my pet theory that Z326, which Iain McDonald describes as "the most Continental of the U106 clades" was amongst the Longobardi and travelled to Britain with the A/S. Clarification on how they arrived at the Welsh Borders would be helpful.
(I'm joking) :). I look forward to it.
I've just been watching the repeats of Michael Woods' series "King Alfred and the Anglo Saxons" which I enjoyed tremendously. Maybe you should think of a TV series Jean? :)

Jean M
10-07-2016, 08:48 AM
Maybe you should think of a TV series Jean? :)

Nothing will get me in front of the cameras. :biggrin1:

Jean M
10-07-2016, 08:58 AM
I was hoping it would be on Vikings.

You are not alone. My sister wanted the Vikings. But logic dictates that the Anglo-Saxons should be next, pointing to their origins among the Germani. The aim is a companion book to Blood of the Celts.

GMan71
10-07-2016, 09:05 AM
Blood of the Celts[/I].

Anglo Saxon invasion of Britain gives an alternate meaning for Blood of the Celts ;)

Jean M
10-07-2016, 09:29 AM
Anglo Saxon invasion of Britain gives an alternate meaning for Blood of the Celts ;)

It grieves me to say this, as a peace-loving person with both Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ancestry, but both the Celts and Germani were noted fighters, and extolled the battles among themselves as much as those against each other. The past is horribly sanguinary. I made that clear, I hope, in Blood of the Celts, and will not shrink from it in the next book. But I am not a military historian. Migration, and what DNA can tell us about it, is my focus.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-07-2016, 12:29 PM
Anglo Saxon invasion of Britain gives an alternate meaning for Blood of the Celts ;)

The Anglo Saxons came to a bad end too. :)

12032

kevinduffy
10-07-2016, 12:42 PM
The Anglo Saxons came to a bad end too. :)

12032

How so? The Normans did not wipe them out or destroy their culture.

Amerijoe
10-07-2016, 01:33 PM
Nothing will get me in front of the cameras. :biggrin1:

Jean, if you're camera shy, who would you have step in for you in the series?;)

Jean M
10-07-2016, 03:13 PM
Jean, if you're camera shy, who would you have step in for you in the series?;)

You lot are already planning a series before I have even signed the contract for the book! :biggrin1:

Today I picked up a copy of Max Adams, The King in the North: The life and times of Oswald of Northumbria (2013). I have barely started it, but already I feel that this would make excellent television. The focus on a central character is perfect for TV.

kevinduffy
10-07-2016, 03:16 PM
It grieves me to say this, as a peace-loving person with both Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ancestry, but both the Celts and Germani were noted fighters, and extolled the battles among themselves as much as those against each other. The past is horribly sanguinary. I made that clear, I hope, in Blood of the Celts, and will not shrink from it in the next book. But I am not a military historian. Migration, and what DNA can tell us about it, is my focus.

True, but the Anglo-Saxons were the invaders while the Celts had been living there for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

avalon
10-07-2016, 03:34 PM
True, but the Anglo-Saxons were the invaders while the Celts had been living there for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

If you go back far enough the Celts were also invaders too, and probably did similar things to the Neolithic people that the Anglo-Saxons did to them. And I say this as somebody with a lot of Celtic ancestry.

Jean M
10-07-2016, 04:05 PM
True, but the Anglo-Saxons were the invaders while the Celts had been living there for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

Yes indeed they were. And the Celts were arrivals c. 2200 BC (I think) to islands which had been inhabited by Neolithic farmers, who arrived c. 3800 BC to islands which had been (sparsely) inhabited by hunter-gatherers. But it is not my job to take sides. It is my job to tell the tale, not wax indignant over new arrivals, whomsoever they may be.

We may look back now on the European colonisation of America and see clearly that it was pretty disastrous for the Native Americans. But there is no turning the clock back. It happened. Understanding the reasons that Europeans flocked to the Americas may help us to understand why Angles and Saxons flocked to Britain, and why a lot of other migrations have taken place.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-07-2016, 04:40 PM
Yes indeed they were. And the Celts were arrivals c. 2200 BC (I think) to islands which had been inhabited by Neolithic farmers, who arrived c. 3800 BC to islands which had been (sparsely) inhabited by hunter-gatherers. But it is not my job to take sides. It is my job to tell the tale, not wax indignant over new arrivals, whomsoever they may be.

We may look back now on the European colonisation of America and see clearly that it was pretty disastrous for the Native Americans. But there is no turning the clock back. It happened. Understanding the reasons that Europeans flocked to the Americas may help us to understand why Angles and Saxons flocked to Britain, and why a lot of other migrations have taken place.

Good point and before the Anglo Saxons and Vikings you had the Romans for about 400 years.

Dewsloth
10-07-2016, 06:46 PM
Good point and before the Anglo Saxons and Vikings you had the Romans for about 400 years.

And, much to the dismay of Basil Fawlty's ancestors, some German tourists had already arrived (see 6DRIF-23).

kevinduffy
10-07-2016, 07:36 PM
Good point and before the Anglo Saxons and Vikings you had the Romans for about 400 years.

But did the Romans have as negative an effect on the Celts as the Anglo-Saxons did?

Dewsloth
10-07-2016, 07:38 PM
But did the Romans have as negative an effect on the Celts as the Anglo-Saxons did?

Ask Boudica.

kevinduffy
10-07-2016, 07:43 PM
Yes indeed they were. And the Celts were arrivals c. 2200 BC (I think) to islands which had been inhabited by Neolithic farmers, who arrived c. 3800 BC to islands which had been (sparsely) inhabited by hunter-gatherers. But it is not my job to take sides. It is my job to tell the tale, not wax indignant over new arrivals, whomsoever they may be.

We may look back now on the European colonisation of America and see clearly that it was pretty disastrous for the Native Americans. But there is no turning the clock back. It happened. Understanding the reasons that Europeans flocked to the Americas may help us to understand why Angles and Saxons flocked to Britain, and why a lot of other migrations have taken place.

But do we really know if the Celts eliminated the farmers or did the Celts outbreed them because they were lactose tolerant while the farmers were not? Does the archeological record indicate that there was military conflict between the Celts and the farmers?

Jean M
10-07-2016, 09:02 PM
But do we really know if the Celts eliminated the farmers or did the Celts outbreed them because they were lactose tolerant while the farmers were not? Does the archeological record indicate that there was military conflict between the Celts and the farmers?

What we actually know about the Celts as fighters comes mainly from the historic record, firstly the writings of non-Celts, for example Roman historians recording the Celtic takeover of a chunk of Etruria, Greek historians recording the Celtic excursions into Greece and Anatolia, Caesar recording his battles to take Gaul and his trip into Britain, etc. Then later we have Irish and Brittonic writing glorifying combat, noting wars etc. In the archaeological record we have fortified sites, swords, shields, not only from these recorded periods, but back into the Bronze Age.

However in the latter part of the 20th century archaeologists took a dislike to interpreting anything as war-like. So swords became "symbols of power", hillforts became "status symbols", huge great earthworks across miles of countryside became "boundaries". You get the picture. The tide has now turned on this, but I think we are still in the early stages i.e. archaeologists admitting that a sword slash through a skull was not some sort of accident, and swords with obvious signs of wear on the blade were not merely ornamental. So I think it is going to be a while before we can get a simple answer to your question about Bell Beaker in Britain and Ireland.

My personal feeling so far is that Bell Beaker people arrived in Britain and Ireland initially in relatively small numbers, though with more later. I don't picture it as an invasion. Plus the population of farmers had declined before their arrival. We don't see the immediate creation of hillforts. I suspect that levels of conflict rose as the population rose once more. I suspect that the incomers did outbreed those farmers who did not integrate with them. But I think we really need lots of ancient DNA to get a clear picture.

A.D.
10-08-2016, 12:03 AM
Isn't there also the possibility the evidence of violence is down to social restructuring after the Bronze Age collapse?

rms2
10-08-2016, 03:37 AM
I think when one reads stories like Mac Dathó's Pig (http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/MacDatho/), which mirror the testimony of Greek writers like Poseidonius, he realizes that violence was a longstanding way of life among the Celts.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-08-2016, 06:09 AM
But did the Romans have as negative an effect on the Celts as the Anglo-Saxons did?

I'm not an expert, but the Romans were brutal in suppressing opposition. It is said they tolerated and even embraced some local practices like in relation to religion. On the other hand they deliberately wiped out the basis of Celtic culture in Britain - the Druids, they killed them all.
As has been pointed out elsewhere the Celts and indeed the Anglo Saxon tribes were perfectly happy at times to fight against each other, steal each other's land and so on. The idea of "good" Celts and "bad" Anglo Saxons is a bit simplistic I think.
As far as I know, no evidence has been found of a sort of mass genocide by the A/S against the general celtic population, although there was slavery, but there was everywhere in that period. It could be argued that Anglo/Saxon culture and language was more successful in some ways than Celtic was, so successful that it has become established across much of the World- look at the English language for example.
I'm not defending the Anglo/Saxons, I'm Welsh and have many Welsh Ancestors as well as a few A/S (probably), but these things are historic realities, we can't change what happened a thousand years ago.