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SwampThing27
07-24-2015, 08:06 PM
They use a couple of the gedmatch calculators and all the sudden they go into various threads posting about having ancient ancestry and ancestry from 6 continents and this and that all because the names of the components on some of the calculators. Then they become obsessed with it and get all bent out of shape if you try to correct them. Anyone agree?

Sorry for the rant and if this needs to be moved.

BalkanKiwi
07-24-2015, 08:45 PM
In fairness, from what I've seen on the community page, a lot of people jump to conclusions before doing research. An example is everyday there is at least one new post with the title, "Is anyone this haplogroup?". It annoys me because if you've gone and spent money on testing, at least read up on what haplogroups are and how they work.

The same can be said for the calculators. If they have just seen German appear for example, and they think they are German, they aren't going to let anyone take that away from them.

Maybe some people don't want to be educated in the area because it'll change what they want to believe.

dp
07-24-2015, 08:52 PM
they aren't going to let anyone take that away from them.

Maybe some people don't want to be educated in the area because it'll change what they want to believe.
I think that is why I have had several older relatives decline testing. They don't want to find out that they aren't Native American, or that their ancestors had illegitimate children by my ancestors.
dp :-)

SwampThing27
07-24-2015, 08:53 PM
True, maybe dumb was too harsh, but annoying and unwilling to accept reality might be better.

dp
07-24-2015, 09:06 PM
True, maybe dumb was too harsh, but annoying and unwilling to accept reality might be better.
You could ask the forum's moderator (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?846-Dr_McNinja) to rename the thread for you.
dp :-)

anglesqueville
07-24-2015, 09:24 PM
Quickly before this thread moves: I believe you are a bit severe. There are all sorts of people on 23, as everywhere. I made a couple of painful experiences on 23'sforum, but some pretty nice also. We all have to start to learn one day, and have never finished learning.

SwampThing27
07-25-2015, 03:04 AM
I'm not talking about the people who are willing to read and learn and listen to others who have been measing with this stuff for 2 or 3 years though. I'm talking about those that are adamant that they know best and everyobe else is wrong despite the fact that they are only a week into it. Anyone who has been on 23andme in the past couple of days and has read a few of the threads circulating on the first page have to know what I'm talking about.

anglesqueville
07-25-2015, 07:05 AM
I'm not talking about the people who are willing to read and learn and listen to others who have been measing with this stuff for 2 or 3 years though. I'm talking about those that are adamant that they know best and everyobe else is wrong despite the fact that they are only a week into it. Anyone who has been on 23andme in the past couple of days and has read a few of the threads circulating on the first page have to know what I'm talking about.

Painful experiences...

Lirio100
07-25-2015, 04:29 PM
Human beings tend to be tribal, and one's family lines tend to define Us and Not US; there is an emotional (and often not recognized) component to both genealogy and now these tests. Even more, they're sold to the general public that way, look at the program "Who do you think you are" and all the ads about Ancestry, FamilyTreeDNA, 23andme, etc. I'm beginning to think that people come to take these things with some underlying feeling that these tests do tell who they are, in some undefined way.

Again, these tests are sold to the general public; there is a certain level of education (self or school) and interest required to really understand what the results say and don't say. Even more, one has to know there is a question to be asked to even ask a question, much less the "right" one--or to know where and how to look for more information. People coming to the forums may be those encountering the subject for the first time and not know there are more resources and sources of information--they don't know what they don't know.

The reasons behind refusal to take the tests can be more complicated, emotional reasons always are. With the use of DNA in criminal cases and the rise of data collection by governments people can be uneasy about yet another collection of private information. Family history is even touchier; I have one NPE known in my family tree that was covered up for decades (goes back to the 1860's), nobody really believed the story passed around but the "cover" story was absolutely passed around as if it was true and it's only documented fully now because the principles have passed away. People may not want to expose the truth (for whatever degree of meaning that may be) in favor of keeping a belief that means a great deal to them. It's not black or white.

Zionas
08-04-2015, 02:32 PM
I'm going to be perfectly honest. Asia's connection with European colonialism (as well as my bad experiences here in the West) makes me not want to have any European in me, and from my AC it turns out I don't.

dp
08-04-2015, 06:13 PM
I'm going to be perfectly honest. Asia's connection with European colonialism (as well as my bad experiences here in the West) makes me not want to have any European in me, and from my AC it turns out I don't.
If you have a GEDmatch kit try:
http://v2.gedmatch.com/archaic1.php
dp :-)
PS: I'm hoping the next Li paper (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78) on the Tarim Basin mummies (http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat5/sub89/item166.html) will use autosomal DNA.

khanabadoshi
08-04-2015, 06:29 PM
If you have a GEDmatch kit try:
http://v2.gedmatch.com/archaic1.php
dp :-)
PS: I'm hoping the next Li paper (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78) on the Tarim Basin mummies (http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat5/sub89/item166.html) will use autosomal DNA.

I've done the archaic run; at each cM interval. I don't know the significance. Would you be interested in taking a look? I have taken screenshots of each.

cairn
08-04-2015, 08:55 PM
I'm going to be perfectly honest. Asia's connection with European colonialism (as well as my bad experiences here in the West) makes me not want to have any European in me, and from my AC it turns out I don't.

Thank you Zionas for sharing that. Genetic genealogy is something that I've been interested in for years and I've brought it up a few times at work when conversations have turned towards family history. Last year, a colleague with Central American heritage asked me if I could recommend a DNA test. I suggested 23andMe because it would provide mtDNA and Ancestry Composition results. I reviewed the results with her and provided some context. Her results came back with a significant portion of European DNA and this was clearly upsetting to her. It was not something she expected given what she knew about her family history. I don't want to speak for her in what may have been thinking about the results, but I got the impression that it forced her to reexamine her identity as well as her ancestors' place in history.

The experience taught me to be more cautious in recommending genetic genealogy to people. I think it would help for people to consider being open to the idea of their results modifying what they know about their family history before choosing to pursue the test.

MikeWhalen
08-05-2015, 12:54 AM
of course, having some hard core bigotry in you regarding a large block of the worlds population is likely to set you up for lots of frustration and disappointments....and science will usually be your enemy too

just sayin

Mike

khanabadoshi
08-05-2015, 12:56 AM
of course, have some hard core bigotry in you regarding a large block of the worlds population is likely to set you up for lots of frustration and disappointments....and science will usually be your enemy too

just sayin

Mike

Beautifully stated!

khanabadoshi
08-05-2015, 01:09 AM
Depending on the region of the world you are from and what era/conflicts your ancestors lived through, a negative response to a certain admixture isn't necessarily due to xenophobia. In conflicts and wars, many horrid and unethical acts occur. The possibility of being a consequence of -- "that" -- is understandably traumatizing and unpleasant.

Zionas
08-05-2015, 01:41 AM
I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society rather than their race, although when it comes to dating and marriage I do have a strong preference for some over others. One of my friends here in the UK comes from the northeast of China, when he found out from 23andMe that he's 0.7% Japanese (standard) he had a strong negative emotional reaction. He's not that patriotic or nationalistic but is still very uncomfortable with the atrocities the Japanese military committed using chemical weapons in Heilongjiang, where his parents are from. Asians take ancestry very seriously, because most Asian countries are relatively homogeneous compared to immigrant nations such as the US, Australia, and Canada.

Science isn't my enemy, I'm naturally inclined towards truth. If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture, you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry. For someone like me, ancestry testing has just as much emotional significance as intellectual appeal.

I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro.

MikeWhalen
08-05-2015, 03:30 AM
this will be my last comment on this topic as I am sure it will go no where, but just so I and others know, I confronted a very ugly set of beliefs being enunciated on this forum....every once and a while we get someone like you here...its tiresome, but there it is
in any case...

Zionas
you seem to be blindingly unaware of how your biases, bigotry, chauvinism and racism oozes out of everything you say.
you build in so many hostile or negative assumptions on your comments, that even when you try to deny the reality like your last post, you reveal your true thoughts, and they are not very nice

"Asians take ancestry very seriously"... and non Asians don't? cant?

"I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society" lol, really? after announcing your dislike, bias, disdain for an entire peoples culture and society, what else is friggen left?

"If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry" ....so us immigrant country citizens, from rather shabby and short cultures, are dilettantes, checking dna and genealogy out for whim, and no possible serious purpose and cannot be compared to the most magnificent and far more worthy people from 'older' countries?

I wont bother tracking down the exact quotes, but I have seen some other comments you've made in other recent posts where you, for instance, do it again when you clearly note that Asian women 'age far better' and are more beautiful that western women...no racial, ethnic bigotry there though eh?


good lord man, every other word you say, is loaded to put down western culture and put what ever yours is, on a pedestal...and you really think there is no massive level of chauvinism or bigotry going in in that head of yours?

We can agree on 1 thing at least, your last little comment
'I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro"

Me too, us westerners have enough problems without you being representative of us

M

ps-I bet your wonderful to have around given your stated values and beliefs...and given your statement in your profile, "I'm currently stuck in the West but my heart is in Asia"
I bet there is more than a few around you, that wish you'd get unstuck and leave the barbarous west for your paradise in Asia

khanabadoshi
08-05-2015, 04:38 AM
...biases, bigotry, chauvinism and racism oozes out of everything you say.



^^ I don't think anyone who has read his posts can disagree with that statement. It's just blatant.

jesus
08-05-2015, 04:55 AM
I'm going to be perfectly honest. Asia's connection with European colonialism (as well as my bad experiences here in the West) makes me not want to have any European in me, and from my AC it turns out I don't.

Having European admix in your 23andme AC doesn't mean you have European colonial ancestry. A lot of central, west and south asians have around 1-10% Euro in their AC, and the vast majority don't have any Euro colonial ancestry(unless if they were South asian christians or Filipino, or had a history of mixing with Euros)

bored
08-05-2015, 06:03 AM
Having European admix in your 23andme AC doesn't mean you have European colonial ancestry. A lot of central, west and south asians have around 1-10% Euro in their AC, and the vast majority don't have any Euro colonial ancestry(unless if they were South asian christians or Filipino, or had a history of mixing with Euros)

For East Asians it probably does indicate colonial ancestry. (Many) South Asians and MENA are predominantly West Eurasian and thus similar to Europeans genetically. But East Asians lack West Eurasian almost entirely.

Arbogan
08-05-2015, 09:35 AM
I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society rather than their race, although when it comes to dating and marriage I do have a strong preference for some over others. One of my friends here in the UK comes from the northeast of China, when he found out from 23andMe that he's 0.7% Japanese (standard) he had a strong negative emotional reaction. He's not that patriotic or nationalistic but is still very uncomfortable with the atrocities the Japanese military committed using chemical weapons in Heilongjiang, where his parents are from. Asians take ancestry very seriously, because most Asian countries are relatively homogeneous compared to immigrant nations such as the US, Australia, and Canada.

Science isn't my enemy, I'm naturally inclined towards truth. If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture, you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry. For someone like me, ancestry testing has just as much emotional significance as intellectual appeal.

I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro.

This is just disguised racism. You might dislike colonialism and colonial system. The majority of the worlds population would agree with you. But there is a difference between disliking a system perpetuated by one group of people. And feeling contempt for an entire racial group. In any given society it's only a very small group of people that are involved in descision making. By abstracifying and projecting the immorality committed by a few, you're not making any logical sense. You can't put down colonialism in china to hundreds of millions of europeans or "white" people. Undoubtedly there are people who benefitted of such a system. But the people responsible for creating the system, are usually a small group within society.

Generalissimo
08-05-2015, 11:02 AM
Yeah, a lot of Americans at 23andMe seem to have a serious fixation with minor admixtures and refuse to accept that this might just be noise because of the clinal nature of genetic variation. It's almost as if, in a sense, the old one drop rule was still a valid concept for them.

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2015, 01:07 PM
Yeah, a lot of Americans at 23andMe seem to have a serious fixation with minor admixtures and refuse to accept that this might just be noise because of the clinal nature of genetic variation. It's almost as if, in a sense, the old one drop rule was still a valid concept for them.

Some of them don't want to be plain vanilla (as they call it), some of them want to believe the DNA results are 100% accurate regardless of not wanting to be plain vanilla, others don't want to discard the small amounts because if they are real they should embrace their ancestors.

Hopefully someday they realize the minor components have a high probability of being noise.

Lirio100
08-05-2015, 03:00 PM
Some of them don't want to be plain vanilla (as they call it), some of them want to believe the DNA results are 100% accurate regardless of not wanting to be plain vanilla, others don't want to discard the small amounts because if they are real they should embrace their ancestors.

Hopefully someday they realize the minor components have a high probability of being noise.

And some of us just find it intellectually amusing. I don't have my 23andme results yet but MyOrigins gives me 1% Central Asia along with the more expected results. Not even sure what culture to embrace there, my U5 and that bit had a long hike through quite a few.

ZephyrousMandaru
08-05-2015, 04:16 PM
What disturbs me the most is that some of these people on 23andMe obsess over the idea that they may be Native American and are consistently disappointed when they discover that they aren't. They don't want to entertain the possibility that perhaps this narrative, which was undoubtedly passed via oral tradition is not true. Most of 23andMe's customers are Americans, usually European Americans belonging to a miscellany of ethnic groups. They think that there isn't anything "special" about being a White American, so they desperately look for some semblance of uniquity to imbue themselves with through tales of alleged Native American, Jewish or some other perceived "exotic" ethnic group(s) ancestry.

Over these past few years, I have on numerous occasions tried to give simplified explanations as to what the clusters mean, what Ks are, why they may be registering some percentage in a component that doesn't align with their recent genealogical paper trail, the limitations of 23andMe's ancestry tool, etc. In order to dispel some of the incorrect assumptions and conclusions they've come to, I honestly wish that these ADMIXTURE calculators had a written guidebook to instruct users on everything I've outlined above. Unfortunately though, people don't have the time or patience to learn how these tools work and giving concise answers tends to oversimplify exactly how these tools function, which doesn't depict a precise understanding for the average user.

Sometimes using technical terms is unavoidable, which compounds the problem even further. The clusters in the ADMIXTURE calculators are composites of ancient alleles that have become genetically differentiated to the degree that they became separate, discrete clusters. "Caucasus" is one of these clusters, at some point, Caucasus was exactly like ENF but when ENF carriers began interbreeding with ANE carriers and these populations formed a homogeneous gene pool, it created a unique cluster "Caucasus."

^That is very complicated, your average 23andMe user who has a general interest in Genetic Genealogy is not likely to understand this unless they decide to do more research into their ancient, prehistorical past.

nuadha
08-05-2015, 04:44 PM
Some of them don't want to be plain vanilla (as they call it), some of them want to believe the DNA results are 100% accurate regardless of not wanting to be plain vanilla, others don't want to discard the small amounts because if they are real they should embrace their ancestors.

Hopefully someday they realize the minor components have a high probability of being noise.

define 'minor'

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2015, 04:54 PM
And some of us just find it intellectually amusing. I don't have my 23andme results yet but MyOrigins gives me 1% Central Asia along with the more expected results. Not even sure what culture to embrace there, my U5 and that bit had a long hike through quite a few.

23andme is much better than myOrigins which provides a lot of people with a weird results.

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2015, 05:01 PM
define 'minor'

It depends on the calculator, component, and ancestry of the poster. The threads at 23andme talk a lot about the Gedmatch calculators besides the 23andme results. 23andme does a much better job for certain populations, especially for western European and Native American ancestry which is mostly what is posted about, than the Gedmatch calculators. So the minor components that are likely noise tend to be smaller, down to 0.1% at times, than the components at Gedmatch which can go all the way up to 1.8%.

Lirio100
08-05-2015, 07:01 PM
23andme is much better than myOrigins which provides a lot of people with a weird results.

In my case it tracked pretty well with the known paper trail; most of my great grandparents were the immigrants, even picked up the one Jewish great grandparent. The only oddball was that one percent, may be noise, may be something that tagged along with the U5 maternal line.

paulgill
08-05-2015, 08:20 PM
23andme is much better than myOrigins which provides a lot of people with a weird results.



Tell me that? 23andMe Ancestry Composition is a sheer nonsense calculator, as its result do not resemble the Global Similarity Map results in my case, Global Similarity Map is much better as it gives results similar to many other calculators. 23andMe now is an obsolete test, Full Genomes WGS test gives one all that one will ever need.

Coldmountains
08-05-2015, 08:36 PM
Tell me that? 23andMe Ancestry Composition is a sheer nonsense calculator, as its result do not resemble the Global Similarity Map results in my case, Global Similarity Map is much better as it gives results similar to many other calculators. 23andMe now is an obsolete test, Full Genomes WGS test gives one all that one will ever need.

People like me who are mixed get really weird results sometimes there I got 60+% Euro even if I am just half European. The results were in my case just worth for the laughs. My South Asian+ Middle east (my Afghan ancestry) was much less than 50% (30%) what is simply ridiculous. It is better to ignore the results there at least for heavily mixed people like me

Lirio100
08-05-2015, 09:12 PM
What are the data sets being used? And how are Origins being defined? On my dad's side his grandparents are English, Welsh, and two different states in Germany (Bavaria and Mecklinberg-Schwerin). Except that the YDNA is a Rox2. So would those origins be English? Or Scots?

Mother's grandparents are Norwegian, Swedish, English, one Jewish German grandparent (Pomerania), and one line further back that appears to be Ulster Scots. The mtDNA is U5. Can't even tell through autosomal if the U5 came the northern route or the southern because I have known Scandinavian as well as central European ancestors.

I did try the autosomal ancient DNA on Gedmatch just for fun, but I barely have any overlap with the Hinxton samples (British ones, yes?) and only 3% British by MyOrigins even with several paper trails that lead to the UK.

What are any of these ancestral tests actually measuring?

khanabadoshi
08-05-2015, 10:23 PM
Tell me that? 23andMe Ancestry Composition is a sheer nonsense calculator, as its result do not resemble the Global Similarity Map results in my case, Global Similarity Map is much better as it gives results similar to many other calculators. 23andMe now is an obsolete test, Full Genomes WGS test gives one all that one will ever need.


People like me who are mixed get really weird results sometimes there I got 60+% Euro even if I am just half European. The results were in my case just worth for the laughs. My South Asian+ Middle east (my Afghan ancestry) was much less than 50% (30%) what is simply ridiculous. It is better to ignore the results there at least for heavily mixed people like me


Totally agree. Even 23andme Global similarity map sucks.. you can't zoom in/out to see all population clusters relation to others. They really suck at ANYTHING to do with south/central asia. Every other population center has components and subcomponents ... and yet a region arguably more diverse if not as diverse as Europe is lumped into this lazy clump called "South Asia" -- half of freaking Central Asia and South East Asia is in it too. So lazy. It's like when everyone calls any country in the African continent, "Africa"... OK so you don't know all the countries names, at least say East, West, North, South, Central... the continent is the size of North America, South America, and Russia put together... and home to the most genetically diverse populations on the planet... (Zionas, MikeWhalen, and paulgill are more closely related to each other than someone from Ethiopia and someone from Cameron... think about that for a second) and yet this lazy nomenclature, "Africa" is applied. Obviously, these sites have majority of customers of European and European-diaspora descent -- Native Americans are probably only concentrated on because of the intense interest of people in the US. It makes sense that the details will be in these populations. Most likely any details that have emerged within Middle Eastern populations is actually a consequence of defining the Jewish ethnicity; also an understandably strong point of interest for many of the base customers. However, if you want a "true" understanding of the people of the world and history of mankind, the same level of scrutiny and detail should be applied everywhere. As of now, the results hold very little specificity for much of the world, at least in my eyes. I don't think the results of someone sitting in Bopal, Merv, or Lagos is backed by the same "amount of science" as someone sitting in New York, Amsterdam, or Munich. Many samples for base populations are just assumptions and self-reported; not to mention ridiculously small number of samples. I don't see any attempt to incorporate any semblance of historical fact with regards to ascertaining the defining base populations and their similarities/differences. If someone tells you their 4 grandparents are "this" ... that's all it takes to be considered the standard. Then all the people who said they are "this" are examined as a whole and the components (or ratios of) that peaks amongst them is considered the defining component. It's hardly representative if half of your 'n' is from the same town.

EDIT: This is also the fault of the populations as well. The lack of scientific interest, curiousness, or seriousness is as integral a cause. Many/most people assume all their grand-parents are the same "thing" and don't bother with the details. And many/most don't care to dwell on the fact that as recently as 200 years ago, what we call ourselves now didn't even exist as a noun. Before my random decision to blow 100-some dollars on a DNA test, R-Z282 = some unclear West Asian, pseudo-pre-European haplogroup; now, I can tell you that if I am of this haplogroup, at least 15,000 people in the middle of Pakistan are the same as well. It really changes perspective. Grassroots involvement is massively important to achieve an understanding. I would really like to encourage people from these mysterious corners of the world, to at least get one person from each "distinct" family/ethnic group in your circle to indulge in a $99 test -- it will really go a long way in helping 1/7th of the world's population discovering who they are.

Kurd
08-05-2015, 11:46 PM
Tell me that? 23andMe Ancestry Composition is a sheer nonsense calculator, as its result do not resemble the Global Similarity Map results in my case, Global Similarity Map is much better as it gives results similar to many other calculators. 23andMe now is an obsolete test, Full Genomes WGS test gives one all that one will ever need.

23andMe's W & S Asian reference set is simply inadequate. Most of W and S Asians are painted in one of 2 colors, S Asian or Middle Eastern. Most middle-easterns and Iranians get around 97-100% ME, even though some have considerable E Asian and S Asian admixture. Likewise, many S Asians get 97-100% S Asian, even though they may have considerable Caucasus and W Asian admixture.

They don't use allele frequencies to calculate admixture. They use IBS segments for admixture, and IBD for DNA Relatives. They use a weird algorithm that magnifies the individual's major admixture at the expense of the individual's minor components to figure admixture.

Wonder_Wall
08-05-2015, 11:48 PM
The 23andMe ancestry package is really poorly done (in my opinion) and has many inaccuracies. They should develop a mathematically transparent and globally accurate method and update that method continuously as new information becomes available. I personally think they should abandon the by-country concept because it facilitates the wrong way to think about human genetics...

paulgill
08-06-2015, 12:13 AM
23andMe's W & S Asian reference set is simply inadequate. Most of W and S Asians are painted in one of 2 colors, S Asian or Middle Eastern. Most middle-easterns and Iranians get around 97-100% ME, even though some have considerable E Asian and S Asian admixture. Likewise, many S Asians get 97-100% S Asian, even though they may have considerable Caucasus and W Asian admixture.

They don't use allele frequencies to calculate admixture. They use IBS segments for admixture, and I believe IBD for countries of ancestry. They use a weird algorithm that magnifies the individual's major admixture at the expense of the individual's minor components to figure admixture.

Agreed. But that is not the only problem. I and monkeyduffy share dna information on 23andMe. He got 3 times more Euro than me on Ancestry Composition tool at 23andMe, but on their Global Similarity Map, I am placed closer to Europeans than he is, which is more like many other calculator at Gedmatch.com. And again on Global Similarity Map, he falls between me and another one of his ethnic group, which looks alright as his grandfather is a Baloch, which pulls him away from another Dhiman towards me.

ArmandoR1b
08-06-2015, 02:06 AM
Tell me that? 23andMe Ancestry Composition is a sheer nonsense calculator, as its result do not resemble the Global Similarity Map results in my case, Global Similarity Map is much better as it gives results similar to many other calculators. 23andMe now is an obsolete test, Full Genomes WGS test gives one all that one will ever need.

We have been through this many times before and you really don't get it. Repeating your belief does not make it true for a large group of people. For certain populations 23andme is better and is not an obsolete test. Most importantly, I truly doubt that there have been enough people that have had a WGS that can be compared to accurately. That is all the ethnicity calculators are doing is comparing people to tested populations but 23andme also uses phasing and has a lot more reference populations than the other companies. Ancestry.com will probably catch up real soon. I'm sure that it is a long way off until WGS testing has enough people in the reference database. You haven't even provided any examples of people from various parts of the world getting correct ethnicity estimations from WGS testing.

ArmandoR1b
08-06-2015, 02:09 AM
People like me who are mixed get really weird results sometimes there I got 60+% Euro even if I am just half European. The results were in my case just worth for the laughs. My South Asian+ Middle east (my Afghan ancestry) was much less than 50% (30%) what is simply ridiculous. It is better to ignore the results there at least for heavily mixed people like me

Which other companies have you tested and have you had WGS testing?

ArmandoR1b
08-06-2015, 02:15 AM
They use a weird algorithm that magnifies the individual's major admixture at the expense of the individual's minor components to figure admixture.

It is likely true that the individual's major admixture is given priority but it is done because if they didn't then there would be a lot of people with a lot of small components that don't make sense to a lot of people. Then what is mentioned in the first post of this thread would happen a lot more.

Have you had the WGS test that paulgill mentions in almost every post of his at Anthrogenica?

ArmandoR1b
08-06-2015, 02:23 AM
What are the data sets being used? And how are Origins being defined? On my dad's side his grandparents are English, Welsh, and two different states in Germany (Bavaria and Mecklinberg-Schwerin). Except that the YDNA is a Rox2. So would those origins be English? Or Scots?

Mother's grandparents are Norwegian, Swedish, English, one Jewish German grandparent (Pomerania), and one line further back that appears to be Ulster Scots. The mtDNA is U5. Can't even tell through autosomal if the U5 came the northern route or the southern because I have known Scandinavian as well as central European ancestors.

I did try the autosomal ancient DNA on Gedmatch just for fun, but I barely have any overlap with the Hinxton samples (British ones, yes?) and only 3% British by MyOrigins even with several paper trails that lead to the UK.

All of the calculators will disagree about the amount of British vs Continental ancestry and what looks correct for one person at one company, or Gedmatch calculator, will be wrong for another person with the same ancestry. I don't think any of the calculators will be able to be even 90% accurate as far as that goes. I doubt that even WGS testing will be able to do that since they still have to compare to other populations.



What are any of these ancestral tests actually measuring?

That should have it's own thread.

Lirio100
08-06-2015, 02:56 AM
I look at this origins tests at two different levels. I have been working at the traditional genealogy for far longer than these tests have been around; my goal originally was to simply trace the known immigrants back to their origin. Didn't think it would be too difficult since most of them are my great grandparents, turned out to be harder than I thought! What I've found in these genetic tests has pretty much confirmed (at least in general terms) what was known or at least guessed at and explained a few quirks that have traveled down the generations.

The origin tests/results are a different matter. I am the result of my ancestors, not my ancestors. I am interested in history, it's interesting to follow the migrations of people using genetic history, in fact it's fascinating. But go too far back and it gets mixed with the now. My great grandfather (source of the Rox2) was born in England, considered himself English--but that haplotype goes back to a time when neither "England" nor "Scotland" as we know it now existed. Another great grandfather is a German Jew from a tiny town up near the Baltic Sea. His father was born in Jastrow, and family finder gives me distant cousins from even further east. What time period is the cut-off for origins?

I see these admixture tests as indicative of all the streams of people moving in history--not to mention phenotypes can be weird things. Supposedly I resemble the Welsh....

paulgill
08-06-2015, 02:56 AM
We have been through this many times before and you really don't get it. Repeating your belief does not make it true for a large group of people. For certain populations 23andme is better and is not an obsolete test. Most importantly, I truly doubt that there have been enough people that have had a WGS that can be compared to accurately. That is all the ethnicity calculators are doing is comparing people to tested populations but 23andme also uses phasing and has a lot more reference populations than the other companies. Ancestry.com will probably catch up real soon. I'm sure that it is a long way off until WGS testing has enough people in the reference database. You haven't even provided any examples of people from various parts of the world getting correct ethnicity estimations from WGS testing.


First of all I was not replying to you, so there was no need for you to jump in, especially when we have already discussed it. Secondly, facts, not beliefs, what is at work here. Is there any sense in telling a South Asian that he is a South Asian, is that what we people are trying to find out through these tests? Also, as if all South Asians are the same, no, they are not, that is why they go for these tests, to find out how they differ genetically from their neighbours, as the South Asian population is very diverse genetically, from north to south and from west to east.

Kurd
08-06-2015, 03:01 AM
It is likely true that the individual's major admixture is given priority but it is done because if they didn't then there would be a lot of people with a lot of small components that don't make sense to a lot of people. Then what is mentioned in the first post of this thread would happen a lot more.

Have you had the WGS test that paulgill mentions in almost every post of his at Anthrogenica?

Whether it is to reduce customer complaints, or any for any other reason, their admixture composition for W and S Asians is too general, non informative, and bordering on inaccurate. For a northern Indian to score 95%+ S Asian at 23andMe, or an Iranian to score 97% Middle Eastern, when any gedmatch calculator, whether it is Eurogenes, MDLP, Dodecad, Harappaworld, admixture runs I have done, DNA Tribes, FTDNA, show that N Indians have anywhere from 30 to 50% non S Asian admixture is simply not realistic. By the same analogy for an Iranian to score 97% Middle Eastern, when all the above calculators and services show that Iranians have 30%+ non Middle Eastern admixture is also not realistic.

In fact, in all the admixture runs I have done, I have yet to find such a "Middle Eastern" cluster that peaks at 95% for multiple Middle Eastern ethnic groups. Ditto the different N Indian groups

Varun R
08-06-2015, 03:26 AM
First of all I was not replying to you, so there was no need for you to jump in, especially when we have already discussed it. Secondly, facts, not beliefs, what is at work here. Is there any sense in telling a South Asian that he is a South Asian, is that what we people are trying to find out through these tests? Also, as if all South Asians are the same, no, they are not, that is why they go for these tests, to find out how they differ genetically from their neighbours, as the South Asian population is very diverse genetically, from north to south and from west to east.

Paul, to be fair most S Asian 23andMe customers are more concerned with health than they are ancestry. 23andMe's customer base is primarily of European descent and its algorithm is supposedly optimized for detecting very recent ancestry; I think we can all agree that Gedmatch calculators do a far better job parsing out differences between S,W & Central Asians. MyOrigins is somewhat better on this front but leaves a lot to be desired. Ancestry's breakdown appears to be about as useful as 23andMe's.

khanabadoshi
08-06-2015, 03:41 AM
First of all I was not replying to you, so there was no need for you to jump in, especially when we have already discussed it. Secondly, facts, not beliefs, what is at work here. Is there any sense in telling a South Asian that he is a South Asian, is that what we people are trying to find out through these tests? Also, as if all South Asians are the same, no, they are not, that is why they go for these tests, to find out how they differ genetically from their neighbours, as the South Asian population is very diverse genetically, from north to south and from west to east.


In the simplest terms so that the majority can understand what we are trying to say: If it is scientifically possible to distinguish a Frenchman and a German and their respective components in someone who is 99% European; it should be EXPONENTIALLY easier to distinguish a Pashtun and Bihari and their respective components in someone who is 99% South Asian. Even if only in broad terms -- but even that isn't the case. Any two people in South Asia are more distinct than any 2 people in Europe.

What is even more ludicrous is that even in pubmed articles, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh are studied separately; I have never read a study that incorporated all populations comparatively. For some reason: Pakistan = Sindhi, Baloch, Pashtun, Hazara, Burosho, Kalash; the sum total of which is ~40% of the country. For some reason: India's ethnic populations are distinguished based on religion and caste. These are horrible bases. No one seems to take into account that the largest mass migration in human history took place between 2 countries, and that something like ~70-80% of Sikhs in India are actually from Pakistan, and 30-40% of Punjabis in Pakistan are actually from India. A random Indian Punjabi Sikh is statistically more likely to be representative of the overall Pakistani population than a random dude in Lahore. This is obvious to anyone in the region. I'll ask all the Indian Punjabis and Pakistani Punjabis, can't you tell who came from where? Without the religious and clothing clues -- based on facial features alone? I think most of us can guess correctly at least 8 times out of 10. I can, and I am not even Punjabi. Until the region is examined as a whole, and distinguished as a whole, everything will be murky.

Let's not even get started on Iran... everyone is just called Persian or Irani... when there are Gilakis, Mazarderanis, Turkmen, Kurd, Azeris, Luris, Baloch, etc etc etc. Iran is just like Pakistan, 70% is one thing (Punjabi or Persian) and the rest is something else. You can't just group them into one giant blob. But in Iran's case it's even worse, not only are all the regional ethnicities grouped as one, but then they are all grouped in the rest of the Middle East as well? Any high school graduate should know that an Irani and Arab (even what defines an Arab isn't agreed upon!) are not the same thing; the term "Middle East" is a political description, nothing more. How one can use the term as an ethnic qualifier in genetic/ethnic studies is beyond me. It's just irresponsible.

paulgill
08-06-2015, 03:48 AM
Paul, to be fair most S Asian 23andMe customers are more concerned with health than they are ancestry. 23andMe's customer base is primarily of European descent and its algorithm is supposedly optimized for detecting very recent ancestry; I think we can all agree that Gedmatch calculators do a far better job parsing out differences between S,W & Central Asians. MyOrigins is somewhat better on this front but leaves a lot to be desired. Ancestry's breakdown appears to be about as useful as 23andMe's.

My reason to test with 23andMe was strictly to find out my paternal bloodline, second thing important was my maternal line, aDNA was a bonus, though it is useful in many ways, but it is of least importance to me as the aDNA soup unlike yDNA and mtDNA can change drastically, just in one generation. Yes, my experience tells me that FTDNA MyOrigins results are a million times better than the results I get for me at 23andMe, but now for good, I have left Geno 2.0, FTDNA, 23andMe and the like for Full Genomes WGS and it will provide me with everything that I can ever ask for or will ever need.

khanabadoshi
08-06-2015, 04:18 AM
Paul, to be fair most S Asian 23andMe customers are more concerned with health than they are ancestry. 23andMe's customer base is primarily of European descent and its algorithm is supposedly optimized for detecting very recent ancestry; I think we can all agree that Gedmatch calculators do a far better job parsing out differences between S,W & Central Asians. MyOrigins is somewhat better on this front but leaves a lot to be desired. Ancestry's breakdown appears to be about as useful as 23andMe's.


I was actually curious about health myself, however I don't think 23andme is legally allowed to give health reports anymore? So I never got any.

I think South Asians who are from very mixed regions like Punjab, Uttar Pardesh, NE India, Afghan border regions, or Pakistan as a whole do sign up to see the ethnic compositions. It is very relevant to these regions and their societies, as there have been 100s of invasions just in the last 200 years. It is really by chance that we have the borders we do today. If Ranjit Singh never raised an army at the end of the 18th century, today most of Punjab would be a part of Afghanistan. Most of the Sikh posters in the forum have grandparents or great-grandparents that spoke Farsi... why? It is so historically sound, that I don't even have to ask these users if it's the case -- that's how likely it is. In the last 150-200 years, all of the Northwest regions went though huge demographic changes. In the last 1000 years, major migrations from the Sindh regions towards Punjab occurred, in response to the Arab invasions. There is not a single town, village, or city in any of these places where someone doesn't claim to be either, a "pure" native or a "pure" invader. Having Turkic/Mongol, Arab/Persian, Pashtun/Baloch, Brahmin/Kashtriya, or Vaishya/Dalit -- ("Aryan" v. "Dravid" v. "Tribal") -- blood had massive socio-economic relevance in the entire region; and it STILL does. It is pretty much the only reason, that you and I have a computer and the internet and don't live in a shantytown outside Mumbai.

For me, personally, I find immense joy when I see a South Indian tribal cluster with a Brahmin or a Punjabi Syed cluster with a Jatt. It really demonstrates how wrong we were/are. If only from an aspect of potential social reform and re-examination of societal norms -- genetic testing holds immense value in the context of South Asia.

AJL
08-06-2015, 06:07 AM
I was actually curious about health myself, however I don't think 23andme is legally allowed to give health reports anymore?

Only in Canada and the UK.

khanabadoshi
08-06-2015, 06:58 AM
Only in Canada and the UK.

I am in the US. Are they allowed to give or not give reports in Canada or UK? I'm sorry, I didn't understand to which your post was referring. If they are allowed to give repots in the US, how do I get them? Perhaps it depends by state?

paulgill
08-06-2015, 07:00 AM
I was actually curious about health myself, however I don't think 23andme is legally allowed to give health reports anymore? So I never got any.


You can run your 23andMe file here to get the health report and all else.

Use any of these:

Promethease (based on SNPedia)...https://www.promethease.com/ondemandlicense

GET-Evidence.....http://evidence.pgp-hms.org/about

Ingenuity Variant Analysis ....http://www.ingenuity.com/products/variant-analysis

khanabadoshi
08-06-2015, 07:07 AM
You can run your 23andMe file here to get the health report and all else.

Use any of these:

Promethease (based on SNPedia)...https://www.promethease.com/ondemandlicense

GET-Evidence.....http://evidence.pgp-hms.org/about

Ingenuity Variant Analysis ....http://www.ingenuity.com/products/variant-analysis

Thanks! I'm checking it out.

paulgill
08-06-2015, 07:46 AM
Thanks! I'm checking it out.

https://www.fullgenomes.com/news/


Although Full Genomes is not providing any interpretation of autosomal and X chromosome results, the raw data are provided in a format compatible with a number of tools that provide the opportunity for in-depth analysis. Examples of currently-available online analysis tools include:

Promethease (based on SNPedia)
GET-Evidence
Ingenuity Variant Analysis

As with other Full Genomes products, this is intended for ancestry/research-use only, and should not be relied upon for medical or diagnostic purposes.

tamilgangster
08-06-2015, 08:26 AM
Honestly, 23andme is the worst calculator, I dont take results from there seriously one bit. They profit from the paranoia, and ancestral pride of people, who have no knowledge of anthropology. If your seriously interested in genetics, 23andme is not where to go.

tamilgangster
08-06-2015, 08:36 AM
Depending on the region of the world you are from and what era/conflicts your ancestors lived through, a negative response to a certain admixture isn't necessarily due to xenophobia. In conflicts and wars, many horrid and unethical acts occur. The possibility of being a consequence of -- "that" -- is understandably traumatizing and unpleasant.

Usually people on anthroforums take pride in having that type of ancestry

tamilgangster
08-06-2015, 08:38 AM
I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society rather than their race, although when it comes to dating and marriage I do have a strong preference for some over others. One of my friends here in the UK comes from the northeast of China, when he found out from 23andMe that he's 0.7% Japanese (standard) he had a strong negative emotional reaction. He's not that patriotic or nationalistic but is still very uncomfortable with the atrocities the Japanese military committed using chemical weapons in Heilongjiang, where his parents are from. Asians take ancestry very seriously, because most Asian countries are relatively homogeneous compared to immigrant nations such as the US, Australia, and Canada.

Science isn't my enemy, I'm naturally inclined towards truth. If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture, you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry. For someone like me, ancestry testing has just as much emotional significance as intellectual appeal.

I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro.

Alot of the european ancestry could easily be noise from mixing with a mongolian, manchu or uigher people, not necesarily the result of colonialism. People in new world, get very emotionally attached to their results more than even asians. There are many threads here like that were Ive even seen threads on this forum and other forums where people will actually try to meet people who they appear to be related to IRL because of these results. People even also try to find out if they have famous relative through these genetic tests

tamilgangster
08-06-2015, 08:59 AM
Totally agree. Even 23andme Global similarity map sucks.. you can't zoom in/out to see all population clusters relation to others. They really suck at ANYTHING to do with south/central asia. Every other population center has components and subcomponents ... and yet a region arguably more diverse if not as diverse as Europe is lumped into this lazy clump called "South Asia" -- half of freaking Central Asia and South East Asia is in it too. So lazy. It's like when everyone calls any country in the African continent, "Africa"... OK so you don't know all the countries names, at least say East, West, North, South, Central... the continent is the size of North America, South America, and Russia put together... and home to the most genetically diverse populations on the planet... (Zionas, MikeWhalen, and paulgill are more closely related to each other than someone from Ethiopia and someone from Cameron... think about that for a second) and yet this lazy nomenclature, "Africa" is applied. Obviously, these sites have majority of customers of European and European-diaspora descent -- Native Americans are probably only concentrated on because of the intense interest of people in the US. It makes sense that the details will be in these populations. Most likely any details that have emerged within Middle Eastern populations is actually a consequence of defining the Jewish ethnicity; also an understandably strong point of interest for many of the base customers. However, if you want a "true" understanding of the people of the world and history of mankind, the same level of scrutiny and detail should be applied everywhere. As of now, the results hold very little specificity for much of the world, at least in my eyes. I don't think the results of someone sitting in Bopal, Merv, or Lagos is backed by the same "amount of science" as someone sitting in New York, Amsterdam, or Munich. Many samples for base populations are just assumptions and self-reported; not to mention ridiculously small number of samples. I don't see any attempt to incorporate any semblance of historical fact with regards to ascertaining the defining base populations and their similarities/differences. If someone tells you their 4 grandparents are "this" ... that's all it takes to be considered the standard. Then all the people who said they are "this" are examined as a whole and the components (or ratios of) that peaks amongst them is considered the defining component. It's hardly representative if half of your 'n' is from the same town.

EDIT: This is also the fault of the populations as well. The lack of scientific interest, curiousness, or seriousness is as integral a cause. Many/most people assume all their grand-parents are the same "thing" and don't bother with the details. And many/most don't care to dwell on the fact that as recently as 200 years ago, what we call ourselves now didn't even exist as a noun. Before my random decision to blow 100-some dollars on a DNA test, R-Z282 = some unclear West Asian, pseudo-pre-European haplogroup; now, I can tell you that if I am of this haplogroup, at least 15,000 people in the middle of Pakistan are the same as well. It really changes perspective. Grassroots involvement is massively important to achieve an understanding. I would really like to encourage people from these mysterious corners of the world, to at least get one person from each "distinct" family/ethnic group in your circle to indulge in a $99 test -- it will really go a long way in helping 1/7th of the world's population discovering who they are.

I remember seeing cape coloured results and they could not even seperate khoisan from bantu ancestry

Coldmountains
08-06-2015, 09:28 AM
I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society rather than their race, although when it comes to dating and marriage I do have a strong preference for some over others. One of my friends here in the UK comes from the northeast of China, when he found out from 23andMe that he's 0.7% Japanese (standard) he had a strong negative emotional reaction. He's not that patriotic or nationalistic but is still very uncomfortable with the atrocities the Japanese military committed using chemical weapons in Heilongjiang, where his parents are from. Asians take ancestry very seriously, because most Asian countries are relatively homogeneous compared to immigrant nations such as the US, Australia, and Canada.

Science isn't my enemy, I'm naturally inclined towards truth. If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture, you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry. For someone like me, ancestry testing has just as much emotional significance as intellectual appeal.

I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro.

It is just ridiculous to get in panic because of having 0,7 % ancestry related to disliked people. I don't get this kind of mentality and 0,7 % in 23andme Ancestry composition means nothing in my opinion as long as his tiny Japanese-like ancestry is not showing in other calculators. All this anti-western rant is amusing in my opinion because Western colonial powers did nothing else than empires elsewhere in the world before them. They just were technologically more developed and had global influences (I am not saying that what they did was ok but it was not worse than what non-western empires did before them). I live in Europe and Europeans know very well of the crimes did by their states in the last centuries and in most cases they are against repeating this and very tolerant towards other people. Such kind of tolerance does not exist in Asia and most Asian countries hardly admit wrongdoings of the past unlike western countries like Germany. If other countries had so much power like western countries they would do much worse stuff.

Coldmountains
08-06-2015, 09:31 AM
Bump.

AJL
08-06-2015, 03:23 PM
Yes, sorry, I was unclear -- they can only give health reports if you are in Canada or the UK.

Lugus
08-06-2015, 04:45 PM
I found the ancestry composition results of 23andme more unreliable and perhaps even whimsical than I was expecting. Especially the small percentages in speculative view are not to be taken seriously. I don't think gedmatch is much better (although more entertaining). Maybe they tell something to people with recent admixtures (up to 4-5 generations back) but not so much to older types of mutt like me. I feel that at this point autosomal testing is at the same level of depth of an old 12 marker Ydna test. This is the area where I expect (wish?) the most progress in the coming years.

ADW_1981
08-06-2015, 08:15 PM
I'm not racist nor bigoted, when I say I don't like a certain group it's usually dislike for their culture and society rather than their race, although when it comes to dating and marriage I do have a strong preference for some over others. One of my friends here in the UK comes from the northeast of China, when he found out from 23andMe that he's 0.7% Japanese (standard) he had a strong negative emotional reaction. He's not that patriotic or nationalistic but is still very uncomfortable with the atrocities the Japanese military committed using chemical weapons in Heilongjiang, where his parents are from. Asians take ancestry very seriously, because most Asian countries are relatively homogeneous compared to immigrant nations such as the US, Australia, and Canada.

Science isn't my enemy, I'm naturally inclined towards truth. If you are from a country founded by colonialists and immigrants, perhaps ancestry testing for you is curiosity+entertainment. However, if you are from a country with a long history and a very rich culture, you may assign enormous weight to your ancestry. For someone like me, ancestry testing has just as much emotional significance as intellectual appeal.

I'm happy knowing that I'm 0% Euro.

British colonial impact on East Asia (referring to China specifically) is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive destruction imposed on Chinese from both Japanese and Mongols - for example. Maybe the other two are easier to forgive because they look more like you. Perhaps the true bigot is yourself.

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 09:06 PM
I found the ancestry composition results of 23andme more unreliable and perhaps even whimsical than I was expecting. Especially the small percentages in speculative view are not to be taken seriously. I don't think gedmatch is much better (although more entertaining). Maybe they tell something to people with recent admixtures (up to 4-5 generations back) but not so much to older types of mutt like me.

Well, you should expect some Sub-Saharan and North African/Middle Eastern admixture since you're Portuguese, so it's not really noise.


I feel that at this point autosomal testing is at the same level of depth of an old 12 marker Ydna test.

Let's be serious now, and not mislead any readers. No it's not.

Arbogan
08-06-2015, 10:06 PM
British colonial impact on East Asia (referring to China specifically) is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive destruction imposed on Chinese from both Japanese and Mongols - for example. Maybe the other two are easier to forgive because they look more like you. Perhaps the true bigot is yourself.

I wouldn't be so dismissive. Had the colonial powers who tampered with the Chinese Qing dynasty and used their divide and conquer strategies, left the country well alone. China would have been in much better shape to resist the Japanese invasion of the east-Asian mainland during ww2. As their country and numbers would prove endlessly hard to control in an asymmetric conflict. It would probably had saved the Chinese lots of massacres. The consequences of western colonialism in china was to put it mildly, disastrous during ww2, especially for Chinese organization. When the Japanese attacked, the country was rife with factionalism, internal-conflicts. It was in shambles and in no way shape or form able to resist a highly organized state-of-the-art military.

And this is factual. Not something you can just dismiss so lightly. So if anything the Brits, Russians, Americans and other powers present in china during the 20th century, are to blame for greatly enabling the Japanese to blaze through East-Asia. Even if you can't blame them directly for the Japanese actions and motivation.

Westerners don't understand the impact of Colonialism/Imperialism, because they haven't been colonized in recent history. Which is why they have a hard time empathizing with people who their goverments(recent and historical) screwed things up for. I guess empathy doesn't go well with being a industrialized and militarily successfull culture.

Besides you're being hypocritical yourself. There are plenty of western occidentalists who gloss over conflicts between European powers, omit their occasional alliances outside the boundaries of the west. In order to convinently support their Manichean narrative between the barbarian orient, and the civilized occident. Especially overempathizing the battles between ottomans in the 17th century and the battle of poitiers.

As much as I disagree with zionas, for his opinions. Pointing fingers at him and singling him out for his views is unfair. There are plenty of people here who hint to similar lines of thought, but who are just not as honest and outspoken about it.

Moderator
08-07-2015, 03:49 AM
Thread being closed because of several off topic and inflammatory posts.

Anyone interested in creating a new thread discussing Asian history please do so in one of the history subforums of our Cultural Anthropology forum. http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?9-Cultural-Anthropology