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Motzart
07-26-2015, 09:04 PM
We talk about Y Chromosomes a lot, but never actually what effect these different Y Chromosome SNPs have on the human male body. I would like to start a discussion on this subject as my own research on the internet hasn't turned up much. Obviously the Y Chromosome is responsible for all male sex characteristics so we can expect all of these to be influenced by the Y. Below I'll start a list of traits and I hope others will add to the discussion.

1. Male Genitalia
2. Testosterone Production
2.1 Body Hair
2.2 Muscle Mass
3. Height
4. Fertility
5. Risk of prostate cancer and other male specific disease.
6. Male Pattern Baldness ??

Obviously your Y Chromosome will affect your genitalia, could there be Y lines that make you more likely to be a male porn star? I would guess so.

Testosterone production is another factor obviously influenced by your Y, as without it you wouldn't have much (I think women have a little bit). How much testosterone your body produces is undeniably effected by your Y Chromosome, and thanks to plentiful research on the effect of testosterone on the body we can know how this production will effect you.

Body Hair - More Testosterone = More Hair, if you are interested in pictures google some images of female to male transsexuals before and after. This is the result of directly injecting Testosterone.
Muscle Mass - Testosterone is the prominent chemical bodybuilders inject to achieve greater strength and muscle mass, some men are more inclined to slimmer builds while others put on mass easily. This is likely linked to Testosterone production as well.

Height - Height is a polygenic trait affected by many SNPs not limited to the Y Chromosome, however there is a large component of the Y Chromosome that can be confirmed to effect height. How can we know this?

1. Everywhere in the world men are taller than women.
2. XYY Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome) 1/1000 men are born with 2 copies of their Y Chromosome, studies on these men show them to be exceptionally tall.

Whether or not the effect on height is linked to Testosterone I do not know, but it is likely.

Fertility - How potent are you? How much sperm do you produce? How well do they swim? Are they more likely to carry your Y or X Chromosome? All these factors are influenced by the Y, but possibly not exclusively determined by it.

Diseases and Male Pattern baldness I can't elaborate on because the information is impossible to find. I've read articles where it has been said that it is the X Chromosome that determines baldness, but I've also read articles where they say that the disease is affected by genes on the Y. I imagine it should be easy to find this gene but apparently it has still eluded researchers. I would assume it is on the Y since it is "Make" pattern baldness, but who knows.

Afshar
07-27-2015, 03:04 PM
Your viewing it too black and white.
Do you have any sources for snps related to the traits?

Motzart
07-28-2015, 01:22 AM
Your viewing it too black and white.
Do you have any sources for snps related to the traits?

I'm not sure what you mean by black and white. I don't have SNPs, but everything I listed is absolutely affected by the Y.

haleaton
07-28-2015, 02:38 AM
Interesting question. For each Y mutation from the reference sequence you can look up whether it occurs in the location of a known gene. I think YFull provides this or used to.

I have never found anything about if these have any effect on the functioning of the Y gene itself that makes a difference. Discussing this is sometimes a little sensitive as every country has its laws about amateur DNA for genealogy being used for medicine.

Obviously, if a mutation led to infertility then it would not be passed on.

Other question would be for all the Y SNP in the tree of man from A to whatever terminal SNP--do any of them have any effects on different branches.

R.Rocca
07-28-2015, 05:55 PM
My memory on this topic is a bit fuzzy, but I vaguely recall that years ago one study linked some form of haplogroup I with higher risk of some sort of heart disease and another found haplogroup R was the likeliest to father males. Perhaps haplogroup E produced less males or somthing like that???. Again, this is just on bad memory and I may be way off. Perhaps someone else can confirm and/or correct me.

paulgill
07-28-2015, 08:14 PM
My memory on this topic is a bit fuzzy, but I vaguely recall that years ago one study linked some form of haplogroup I with higher risk of some sort of heart disease and another found haplogroup R was the likeliest to father males. Perhaps haplogroup E produced less males or somthing like that???. Again, this is just on bad memory and I may be way off. Perhaps someone else can confirm and/or correct me.


I know of two brothers, each had 8 children, one had 6 daughters and two sons and the other 6 sons and 2 daughters, same haplogroup but opposite results. There have to be other factors at play not just the haplogroup.

alan
07-28-2015, 08:35 PM
My memory on this topic is a bit fuzzy, but I vaguely recall that years ago one study linked some form of haplogroup I with higher risk of some sort of heart disease and another found haplogroup R was the likeliest to father males. Perhaps haplogroup E produced less males or somthing like that???. Again, this is just on bad memory and I may be way off. Perhaps someone else can confirm and/or correct me.

Yeah I recall something similar. I'll tell you why I doubt yDNA has a big effect on appearance. I have lived most my life in places where about three quarters or more of the population is R1b- probably nearly all L11 derived but people come in the whole spectrum of shapes, sizes, level of baldness, height, build etc. I doubt specific Y lines within Europe have much to do with physical appearance. Even among brothers in big families I see tall thin, short thickset, bald, hairy. So if there is any influence by y chromosome it is minor and drowned out by autosomal. Also its become clear that diet is a huge factor on height for example. Even places like Japan the youth who eat more western food are far far taller than their grandparents.

R.Rocca
07-28-2015, 08:36 PM
I know of two brothers, each had 8 children, one had 6 daughters and two sons and the other 6 sons and 2 daughters, same haplogroup but opposite results. There have to be other factors at play not just the haplogroup.

Of course. What we are talking about is a few percentage points more likely, not anything drastic.

alan
07-28-2015, 08:43 PM
i think you could find false correlation that are not causal. For example you might find taller people in areas with more hunter-gatherer DNA but then realise that the reason there is more hunter gatherer DNA is because its bad farmland and people do a lot of fishing and hunting even into today and therefore have a higher protein diet and probably more dairy than cereal - something that seems to add height. Some diets are notorious for shrinking height - especially a high carb, low protein one like the very bread dominated diet of the poor in past centuries, pasta/rice based diets with little meat etc.

Motzart
07-28-2015, 09:56 PM
I know of two brothers, each had 8 children, one had 6 daughters and two sons and the other 6 sons and 2 daughters, same haplogroup but opposite results. There have to be other factors at play not just the haplogroup.

Yes but I think the Y is the majority factor. A sperm carries a Y or an X not both, and which the sperm contains determines the sex of the baby. A man would not produce any sperm without a Y so the code that determines how much Y sperm vs how much X sperm a man produces must be on the Y. I've read that sperm that contain the X are more 'hardy' than the Y sperm so environmental and other factors can influence which type of sperm reach the egg.

Motzart
07-28-2015, 10:01 PM
i think you could find false correlation that are not causal. For example you might find taller people in areas with more hunter-gatherer DNA but then realise that the reason there is more hunter gatherer DNA is because its bad farmland and people do a lot of fishing and hunting even into today and therefore have a higher protein diet and probably more dairy than cereal - something that seems to add height. Some diets are notorious for shrinking height - especially a high carb, low protein one like the very bread dominated diet of the poor in past centuries, pasta/rice based diets with little meat etc.

The correlation between height and Y is fact though otherwise men would not be consistently taller than women everywhere.

paulgill
07-28-2015, 10:08 PM
Yes but I think the Y is the majority factor. A sperm carries a Y or an X not both, and which the sperm contains determines the sex of the baby. A man would not produce any sperm without a Y so the code that determines how much Y sperm vs how much X sperm a man produces must be on the Y. I've read that sperm that contain the X are more 'hardy' than the Y sperm so environmental and other factors can influence which type of sperm reach the egg.

I am familiar with the Laws of Inheritance. Y is a sprinter so runs out of gas very fast, while x is a marathoner and wins the race if the egg is farther away.

Motzart
07-28-2015, 11:33 PM
Yeah I recall something similar. I'll tell you why I doubt yDNA has a big effect on appearance. I have lived most my life in places where about three quarters or more of the population is R1b- probably nearly all L11 derived but people come in the whole spectrum of shapes, sizes, level of baldness, height, build etc. I doubt specific Y lines within Europe have much to do with physical appearance. Even among brothers in big families I see tall thin, short thickset, bald, hairy. So if there is any influence by y chromosome it is minor and drowned out by autosomal. Also its become clear that diet is a huge factor on height for example. Even places like Japan the youth who eat more western food are far far taller than their grandparents.

Male/female fraternal twins are probably a good example of the effect of the X/Y on appearnce, other than sex characteristic they tend to be very similar. There are of course a lot of brothers and sisters who are similar in appearance. It would be interesting to take a survey of y chromosomes and the height difference between a male of say R1b and his sister vs the height difference of a G2a male and his sister. Maybe I could start a thread and ask the question...

alan
07-28-2015, 11:49 PM
The correlation between height and Y is fact though otherwise men would not be consistently taller than women everywhere.

yes but the evidence that a particular y-line is a major factor on height etc seems poor, especially when you look at a bunch of siblings and cousins with the same y-chromosome from a grandfather who are all sorts of heights and builds. It seems far more likely that its autosomal as that involves a whole lot more potential variation among close male relatives. I personally think diet and other health and living conditions factors of the child and possibly their parents have as much impact on height and genes. Its also well known that the 1st son is usually taller than subsequent even when food and conditions are identical so there may be some complex epigenetic factors involved in height too. But specific y lineages I cant see being a major determinant of things like height. I think a myriad of autosomal DNA, epigenetic, dietary and all sorts of factors are involved.

Motzart
07-29-2015, 03:21 AM
yes but the evidence that a particular y-line is a major factor on height etc seems poor, especially when you look at a bunch of siblings and cousins with the same y-chromosome from a grandfather who are all sorts of heights and builds. It seems far more likely that its autosomal as that involves a whole lot more potential variation among close male relatives. I personally think diet and other health and living conditions factors of the child and possibly their parents have as much impact on height and genes. Its also well known that the 1st son is usually taller than subsequent even when food and conditions are identical so there may be some complex epigenetic factors involved in height too. But specific y lineages I cant see being a major determinant of things like height. I think a myriad of autosomal DNA, epigenetic, dietary and all sorts of factors are involved.

The GWAS study on height stated that about 80 % of a person's height is genetic implying 20% is environmental. Environmental factors being equal man are typically about 5-10% taller than women according to the wikipedia height page. Human Y lines I would imagine are around 90-99% similar so that means height differences between Y lines would likely not be that significant. To the contrary of this though, the GWAS study on height did not include the Y chromosome, and only found 1 or 2 statistically significant SNPs which they showed to have a 10-12% increased effect on height. If a single SNP can have a 10-12% increase on height then the SNPs on the Y could be influential. I'd imagine that the Y effect on height is just related to testosterone though, testosterone is proven to have an effect on the skeletal system making bones stronger and larger.

alan
07-29-2015, 09:44 AM
The GWAS study on height stated that about 80 % of a person's height is genetic implying 20% is environmental. Environmental factors being equal man are typically about 5-10% taller than women according to the wikipedia height page. Human Y lines I would imagine are around 90-99% similar so that means height differences between Y lines would likely not be that significant. To the contrary of this though, the GWAS study on height did not include the Y chromosome, and only found 1 or 2 statistically significant SNPs which they showed to have a 10-12% increased effect on height. If a single SNP can have a 10-12% increase on height then the SNPs on the Y could be influential. I'd imagine that the Y effect on height is just related to testosterone though, testosterone is proven to have an effect on the skeletal system making bones stronger and larger.

I would think if there was significant with-Europe differences is testosterone levels between different countries (with very different patterns of y-lines) this would have been something that would have been noted before and by proxy we would be able to guess which y lines had more or less given the y DNA line differences between nations. The fact I have never heard of such an observation suggests to me that noone has ever observed anything like that. I think things like height obviously are part genetic but it probably boils down to a whole pile of complex interacting factors - many autosomal. I have read that the height of the mother on average can influence the childrens height. I have observed this in real life where a tall father and a very short mother has sons who are shorter than the father.

anglesqueville
07-29-2015, 08:48 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong: I thought that the Y-haplotype was only "made" with noncoding snps? Therefore, how could exist a relation between Y-haplogroups and phenotypic traits, as fertility, or testosterone production?

Motzart
07-30-2015, 12:13 AM
I would think if there was significant with-Europe differences is testosterone levels between different countries (with very different patterns of y-lines) this would have been something that would have been noted before and by proxy we would be able to guess which y lines had more or less given the y DNA line differences between nations. The fact I have never heard of such an observation suggests to me that noone has ever observed anything like that. I think things like height obviously are part genetic but it probably boils down to a whole pile of complex interacting factors - many autosomal. I have read that the height of the mother on average can influence the childrens height. I have observed this in real life where a tall father and a very short mother has sons who are shorter than the father.

This map of Androgenic body hair can be taken as a map of the testosterone cline.
5348

Androgenic body hair is a direct result of testosterone levels. You can see that the areas where IJ Y lines exist are typically hairier than the lines under K.

Motzart
07-30-2015, 12:14 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong: I thought that the Y-haplotype was only "made" with noncoding snps? Therefore, how could exist a relation between Y-haplogroups and phenotypic traits, as fertility, or testosterone production?

you are thinking of STR markers

VinceT
07-30-2015, 01:09 AM
We talk about Y Chromosomes a lot, but never actually what effect these different Y Chromosome SNPs have on the human male body. I would like to start a discussion on this subject as my own research on the internet hasn't turned up much. Obviously the Y Chromosome is responsible for all male sex characteristics so we can expect all of these to be influenced by the Y. Below I'll start a list of traits and I hope others will add to the discussion.

1. Male Genitalia
2. Testosterone Production
2.1 Body Hair
2.2 Muscle Mass
3. Height
4. Fertility
5. Risk of prostate cancer and other male specific disease.
6. Male Pattern Baldness ??

Obviously your Y Chromosome will affect your genitalia, could there be Y lines that make you more likely to be a male porn star? I would guess so.

Testosterone production is another factor obviously influenced by your Y, as without it you wouldn't have much (I think women have a little bit). How much testosterone your body produces is undeniably effected by your Y Chromosome, and thanks to plentiful research on the effect of testosterone on the body we can know how this production will effect you.

Body Hair - More Testosterone = More Hair, if you are interested in pictures google some images of female to male transsexuals before and after. This is the result of directly injecting Testosterone.
Muscle Mass - Testosterone is the prominent chemical bodybuilders inject to achieve greater strength and muscle mass, some men are more inclined to slimmer builds while others put on mass easily. This is likely linked to Testosterone production as well.

Height - Height is a polygenic trait affected by many SNPs not limited to the Y Chromosome, however there is a large component of the Y Chromosome that can be confirmed to effect height. How can we know this?

1. Everywhere in the world men are taller than women.
2. XYY Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome) 1/1000 men are born with 2 copies of their Y Chromosome, studies on these men show them to be exceptionally tall.

Whether or not the effect on height is linked to Testosterone I do not know, but it is likely.

Fertility - How potent are you? How much sperm do you produce? How well do they swim? Are they more likely to carry your Y or X Chromosome? All these factors are influenced by the Y, but possibly not exclusively determined by it.

Diseases and Male Pattern baldness I can't elaborate on because the information is impossible to find. I've read articles where it has been said that it is the X Chromosome that determines baldness, but I've also read articles where they say that the disease is affected by genes on the Y. I imagine it should be easy to find this gene but apparently it has still eluded researchers. I would assume it is on the Y since it is "Make" pattern baldness, but who knows.

I think the scope you are suggesting is too simplistic. Some traits, such as male pattern baldness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-pattern_hair_loss), arise due to the lack of a second X chromosome, rather than arising from the presence of the Y chromosome.

A review of the work of Dr. David Page may be enlightening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQcgD5DpVlQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwrHtOBjkrM

alan
07-30-2015, 01:55 AM
This map of Androgenic body hair can be taken as a map of the testosterone cline.
5348

Androgenic body hair is a direct result of testosterone levels. You can see that the areas where IJ Y lines exist are typically hairier than the lines under K.

certainly doesnt correlate with height as the Burt Reynolds rug chest/bald head zone also includes some of the tallest and shortest areas of Europe. To be honest too high testosterone is something of a downside anyway and I recall violent criminals with poor impulse control often have too high levels http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3575604
http://www.crimetimes.org/95c/w95cp4.htm

So its probably a bit of a short straw to have too much testosterone unless one aspires to being hairy bald and violent LOL.

Motzart
07-30-2015, 02:49 AM
certainly doesnt correlate with height as the Burt Reynolds rug chest/bald head zone also includes some of the tallest and shortest areas of Europe. To be honest too high testosterone is something of a downside anyway and I recall violent criminals with poor impulse control often have too high levels http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3575604
http://www.crimetimes.org/95c/w95cp4.htm

So its probably a bit of a short straw to have too much testosterone unless one aspires to being hairy bald and violent LOL.

The idea that Testosterone makes a person violent is a myth that has been debunked, it is actually a mood enhancer. It is Testosterone withdrawal that steroid users go through which causes the well known "roid rage".

You're right that the map I posted doesn't directly correlate to height but that wasn't the point. Countries with greater steppe admixture are taller than countries with greater EEF admixture. Among countries with more prominent Steppe admixture, the countries with Y DNA I are significantly taller than those with R1a/b. Androgenic body hair is caused by Testosterone concentration. For instance, 500ml of Testosterone will cause more Androgenic hair growth in a 5ft tall man than a 6 ft tall man.

Here is a link to a peer reviewed paper on the link between genius and Testosterone.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110311153549.htm

you seem not to have a genuine interest in this though..... :\

Motzart
07-30-2015, 02:51 AM
I think the scope you are suggesting is too simplistic. Some traits, such as male pattern baldness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-pattern_hair_loss), arise due to the lack of a second X chromosome, rather than arising from the presence of the Y chromosome.

A review of the work of Dr. David Page may be enlightening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQcgD5DpVlQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwrHtOBjkrM

You're right I don't understand the baldness part. It was just an attempt to artificially inflate my discussion points :). Thanks for the videos I will watch them.

AJL
07-30-2015, 03:30 AM
As far as I can tell, known genetic variation of testosterone levels actually comes from the autosomes (Chromosome 17) and the X chromosome.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111006173437.htm

Motzart
07-30-2015, 04:07 AM
As far as I can tell, known genetic variation of testosterone levels actually comes from the autosomes (Chromosome 17) and the X chromosome.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111006173437.htm

The study you linked to is about a gene that affects SHBG

Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) is the key protein that carries testosterone and estrogen in the bloodstream in both men and women. As the main carrier of these sex hormones, SHBG helps to regulate their effects in different tissues and organs in the body. In addition to effects on reproduction in men and women through regulation of sex hormones, SHBG has been linked to many chronic diseases including type 2 diabetes and hormone-sensitive cancers such as breast and prostate.

A protein that carries testosterone is not the same as testosterone itself, this gene effects estrogen as well. No doubt if your body can't process the testosterone/estrogen it produces then you will show signs of deficiency, I am sure there are all sorts of genes involved in processing sex hormones. Ultimately though, no Y = no testicles, and the testicles are where 95% of a man's testosterone is produced.

Interesting read though, the link I posted is a little better.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120720103545.htm

Vadim Verenich
08-05-2015, 05:39 AM
Funny discussion. In reality, only one gene in the NRY of Y-chromosome (which is SRY) is known to act as a" starter' in so called molecular pathway of specific male gonadal development (with the rest of genees relevant to the male gonade development - SOX9, DAX, FGF9, PGP etc. being located on autosomes).


5507

Vadim Verenich
08-05-2015, 05:53 AM
yes but the evidence that a particular y-line is a major factor on height etc seems poor, especially when you look at a bunch of siblings and cousins with the same y-chromosome from a grandfather who are all sorts of heights and builds. It seems far more likely that its autosomal as that involves a whole lot more potential variation among close male relatives. I personally think diet and other health and living conditions factors of the child and possibly their parents have as much impact on height and genes. Its also well known that the 1st son is usually taller than subsequent even when food and conditions are identical so there may be some complex epigenetic factors involved in height too. But specific y lineages I cant see being a major determinant of things like height. I think a myriad of autosomal DNA, epigenetic, dietary and all sorts of factors are involved.

Sure, epigentic factors have much larger impact on the phenotypes (especially from dynamic, lifetime perspective of 'aging' - cf. DNA methylation)