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khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 05:31 PM
Even though this is a Hindi sub-form, obviously the South/Central/East Asian members here with cultural ties to Hindi speak many languages. I am curious as to your language history. Where are you from? If you speak a certain dialect, can you demarcate where it is spoken and other dialects? What is similar/different, irrespective of what Ethnolouge says; what do YOU find intelligible or non-intelligible? If you know the specific name of your dialect/language, that you and your people call it, tell me -- and tell me what other people call it. How old do you think your language is? Is it predominate amongst a certain type of people other than by geography? Does knowing your language make it easier to understand another language or more difficult? Are there unique sounds to it? Can you post a YouTube video of an example? I am pretty obsessed with languages. Feed me.

I have the poster subwess-something (sorry!) who asked my what language I speak at home to thank for stimulating the idea.

Kaido
07-27-2015, 06:22 PM
Raised as a coconut, English only.

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 06:36 PM
Raised as a coconut, English only.

I am your brother. I was raised the same... chance and circumstance changed that later in life though!

Coldmountains
07-27-2015, 06:50 PM
Paternal of Afghan Pashtun descent and maternal of Russian+Ukrainian. I speak Russian, German, English and a bit Ukrainian. I have also distant South Asian( Kashmiri) ancestry and if my mother is right also very distant German ancestry. Now I am learning Pashto and I love this beautiful language but it is quite hard. Hope to learn a South Asian (Indo-Aryan) language if I have enough time for it and if i improved my Pashto skills.

evon
07-27-2015, 07:15 PM
Western Norwegian acestry for the most part.
- I speak and understand Norwegian, speak two dialects and can read both Norwegian languages (Nynorsk and Bokmål), but can only write fluently Bokmål, and very bad Nynorsk.
- I understand most if not all English accents and I speak English fluently with a mixed east Midland accent when I talk with other Brits, otherwise I speak the generic Norweglish, no Idea why this is, I just happen to do it like that :\
- I also understand and can read most German sentences, but speak it very poorly.
- Can understand basic Spanish, French and Italian as well as Latin.
- Can also understand some words and sentences in Japanese and Hebrew, along with minor vocabulary in Mandarin, Arabic and Turkish.
- Have studied various languages to various degrees; English, German, Latin, Hebrew, Japanese and Mandarin, and plan to focus on Mandarin in the coming years, but only to read it, dont have any plans to be able to speak it it or understand spoken Mandarin.

thats about it...

surbakhunWeesste
07-27-2015, 07:38 PM
Raised as a coconut, English only.

:O No Habla Pashto/Urdu?

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 07:45 PM
Paternal of Afghan Pashtun descent and maternal of Russian+Ukrainian. I speak Russian, German, English and a bit Ukrainian. I have also distant South Asian( Kashmiri) ancestry and if my mother is right also very distant German ancestry. Now I am learning Pashto and I love this beautiful language but it is quite hard. Hope to learn a South Asian (Indo-Aryan) language if I have enough time for it and if i improved my Pashto skills.

Wow! That is extremely fascinating! Did your parent's marriage occur during the era of Soviet influence in Afghanistan, or subsequent result of it? It is surprising to me that your father is Pashtun, as I understood the bureaucracy and people of the time who were most accepting of Russian to be Kabul-centric left-leaning Dari speakers; but I suppose it does make sense... much of government and the king was Pashtun.

Does knowing Russian help you understand Ukrainian even though you can't speak it? What about other Slavic languages? Did you learn German because of living there, or were there other influences, or just interest? Which language that you grew up with helped you to learn German the most?

I love Pashtu! I just got a textbook on it. I hope to sit down and master it sometime in the near future, when other obligations are done with. I read a very interesting blog of an Urdu-speaker in Pakistan with no ties to any other language who endevoured to learn Pashto and Farsi. His assumptions that Farsi would be much easier to learn and Pashto much more difficult. He found that after 1 month, he was conversational and fairly fluent in Pashtu and it took him 6 months to achieve the same in Farsi. Totally opposite of what he and most others would think! He accounts this to the fact that, while Pashtu has an extremely different pronunciation and cadence, some letters/sounds are unique to both it and Urdu, and not in Farsi. Also, subconsciously, one unknowingly gains a certain familiarity with Pashtu in Pakistan due to the amount of people you hear speaking it in public on a daily basis. This is pretty evident when one witnesses the ability of an average Pakistani being able to accurately imitate the accent/cadence of a Pashtu speaker in their own language with little thought or effort.


Western Norwegian acestry for the most part.
- I speak and understand Norwegian, speak two dialects and can read both Norwegian languages (Nynorsk and Bokmål), but can only write fluently Bokmål, and very bad Nynorsk.
- I understand most if not all English accents and I speak English fluently with a mixed east Midland accent when I talk with other Brits, otherwise I speak the generic Norweglish, no Idea why this is, I just happen to do it like that :\
- I also understand and can read most German sentences, but speak it very poorly.
- Can understand basic Spanish, French and Italian as well as Latin.
- Can also understand some words and sentences in Japanese and Hebrew, along with minor vocabulary in Mandarin, Arabic and Turkish.
- Have studied various languages to various degrees; English, German, Latin, Hebrew, Japanese and Mandarin, and plan to focus on Mandarin in the coming years, but only to read it, dont have any plans to be able to speak it it or understand spoken Mandarin.

thats about it...


I have zero familiarity with Norwegian! So I have to ask are Nynorsk and Bokmål different languages of Norway or dialects of Norwegian? Also, I lied, I do have about 3 minutes of familiarity with Norwegian. I met a guy from Lahore, in Illinois who grew up in Norway and asked him to speak Norwegian. It was so alien to us! It sounded pretty cool though! It was amazing to me that the he spoke English, Norwegian, Punjabi, and Urdu without a hint of an accent in either (well I can only testify for 3...I don't know about the Norwegian).

Does understanding Norwegian give you a sense of familiarity in Finnish? What about the Farose language of the island nearby? (spelling?) I don't remember the exact classifications but I believe the differences in the languages have a lot to do based on age; ie. Farose is older than Finnish, then Norwegian etc... Maybe I am confusing different lines of languages.

Is your understanding of German something you learned or something that was natural due to knowing Norwegian?

In your studies of other languages, which languages help/hurt you in grammar, pronunciation, or differentiating sounds in each of those respective languages?

Kaido
07-27-2015, 07:46 PM
:O No Habla Pashto/Urdu?

Nah lol, my siblings can speak pashto but I just never picked it up. I'll learn someday I guess...

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 07:46 PM
:O No Habla Pashto/Urdu?

You! You are the one to thank and whose name I butchered. Sorry. LOL!

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 07:50 PM
Nah lol, my siblings can speak pashto but I just never picked it up. I'll learn someday I guess...

You must be younger or the youngest. Same with my siblings. I am the oldest and most familiar with the languages, my brother has less, and my sister... barely one other than English.

For some reason, when I was a child I thought all the languages spoken in my family were the SAME... it wasn't until I was in my teens did I realize that different languages are being spoken, not everyone can understand what is being said, and I was able to differentiate between them. I only learned 2 days ago, that my sister doesn't understand my Father's language at all... I was pretty shocked. This whole time I thought she understood. LOL!

Kaido
07-27-2015, 07:59 PM
You must be younger or the youngest. Same with my siblings. I am the oldest and most familiar with the languages, my brother has less, and my sister... barely one other than English.

For some reason, when I was a child I thought all the languages spoken in my family were the SAME... it wasn't until I was in my teens did I realize that different languages are being spoken, not everyone can understand what is being said, and I was able to differentiate between them. I only learned 2 days ago, that my sister doesn't understand my Father's language at all... I was pretty shocked. This whole time I thought she understood. LOL!

Yeah one of the youngest lol, what languages do you speak btw?

evon
07-27-2015, 08:02 PM
I have zero familiarity with Norwegian! So I have to ask are Nynorsk and Bokmål different languages of Norway or dialects of Norwegian? Also, I lied, I do have about 3 minutes of familiarity with Norwegian. I met a guy from Lahore, in Illinois who grew up in Norway and asked him to speak Norwegian. It was so alien to us! It sounded pretty cool though! It was amazing to me that the he spoke English, Norwegian, Punjabi, and Urdu without a hint of an accent in either (well I can only testify for 3...I don't know about the Norwegian).

Does understanding Norwegian give you a sense of familiarity in Finnish? What about the Farose language of the island nearby? (spelling?) I don't remember the exact classifications but I believe the differences in the languages have a lot to do based on age; ie. Farose is older than Finnish, then Norwegian etc... Maybe I am confusing different lines of languages.

Is your understanding of German something you learned or something that was natural due to knowing Norwegian?

In your studies of other languages, which languages help/hurt you in grammar, pronunciation, or differentiating sounds in each of those respective languages?

They are two different languages that are very close, we have allot of different dialects as well (some dialects are further apart and people on opposite ends have a hard time in understanding each other properly), but Nynorsk and Bokmål are only written languages, nobody actually speak them as such. They are about as similar as Danish and Swedish is to spoken Norwegian in general if you understand what I mean...

Urdu and some Eastern Norwegian dialects actually have allot in common in the way they use what we call a thick L, which is funny, my guess he was from around Oslo as there are allot of South Asians living there..

No, we dont understand Finnish, only those words being borrowed from Swedish. I can understand most if not all Danish and Swedish, and about 50% Icelandic and Faroese, depending on speed of talking and such..Icelandic and Faroese is very similar to Nynorsk, with allot of common words and terms.. Here is a familytree of Germanic languages (Note two Norwegians, representing Nynorsk and Bokmål):

http://satwcomic.com/art/core/germanic-language-tree.jpg


I learned German, its not that close to Norwegian, same as English I guess..

I am crap at grammar in general, but I do learn languages quite fast, but only a shallow understanding of it of course...Latin was a real eye opener for me, unlocked most European languages..

Coldmountains
07-27-2015, 08:47 PM
Wow! That is extremely fascinating! Did your parent's marriage occur during the era of Soviet influence in Afghanistan, or subsequent result of it? It is surprising to me that your father is Pashtun, as I understood the bureaucracy and people of the time who were most accepting of Russian to be Kabul-centric left-leaning Dari speakers; but I suppose it does make sense... much of government and the king was Pashtun.

Does knowing Russian help you understand Ukrainian even though you can't speak it? What about other Slavic languages? Did you learn German because of living there, or were there other influences, or just interest? Which language that you grew up with helped you to learn German the most?

I love Pashtu! I just got a textbook on it. I hope to sit down and master it sometime in the near future, when other obligations are done with. I read a very interesting blog of an Urdu-speaker in Pakistan with no ties to any other language who endevoured to learn Pashto and Farsi. His assumptions that Farsi would be much easier to learn and Pashto much more difficult. He found that after 1 month, he was conversational and fairly fluent in Pashtu and it took him 6 months to achieve the same in Farsi. Totally opposite of what he and most others would think! He accounts this to the fact that, while Pashtu has an extremely different pronunciation and cadence, some letters/sounds are unique to both it and Urdu, and not in Farsi. Also, subconsciously, one unknowingly gains a certain familiarity with Pashtu in Pakistan due to the amount of people you hear speaking it in public on a daily basis. This is pretty evident when one witnesses the ability of an average Pakistani being able to accurately imitate the accent/cadence of a Pashtu speaker in their own language with little thought or effort.




Ironically I know much more Afghan Pashtuns who took Russian wifes than Afghan Tajiks. It is true that dari speaking Kabuli were the most pro-Russian oriented but many of this Kabuli communists were actually of Pashtun ancestry but got culturally tajikized and adopted dari when they or their ancestors settled in Kabul. My father's family are Pashtuns from Paghman (a rural region located in the Kabul province quite close to Kabul but predominantly populated by Ghilzai Pashtuns) which were culturally tajikized when they settled in the City of Kabul. Many Pashtuns were actually pro-Russian and studied in the Soviet Union and almost all major political leaders during this period like Najibullah, Taraki, Hafizullah Amin ,... were of Pashtun ancestry. The communist Khalq party (ironically many members were rural Ghilzai Pashtuns) was in some cases almost a pashtun nationalist party and they were the most radical communists. My Grandfather and father studied in the Soviet Union and here my father found my half russian/half Ukrainian mother. My father's family are still great fans of Najibullah and the Soviet Union but i think a bit different about that.

I live since 17 years in Germany and grew up here so i speak German fluently and my parents always tried to speak German with me so that I will have no problems in school unlike other children of immigrants in Germany. Ukrainian and Russian are more different than most expect. My mother even says that pure Ukrainian( in reality just West Ukrainians speak "pure" Ukrainian) is a bit closer to Polish than to Russian and most Russians would have big problems understanding Ukrainian but almost all Ukrainians are bilingual so they have no problem understanding Russian. Even the capital Kiev is still a predominantly Russian speaking city. I know many Ukrainian phrases and can watch Ukrainian tv and understand much of it ( I learnt a bit Ukrainian by watching Ukrainian tv and listening to my mother when she talked with maternal Ukrainian relatives there) . Also many Ukrainians speak a mix of Russian and Ukrainian which gets sometimes confused with Ukrainian by foreigners and Russians but it is quite widespread in many parts of Ukraine . The languages are of course still extremely similar and learning Ukrainian as Russian speaker should be quite easy. Belarusian which is somewhere between Ukrainian and Russian but closer to Russian is quite familiar for me and polish to a lesser extent also but other Slavic languages I either rarely heard or much poorer understand. But it is true that despite of all differences Slavic languages are still quite close to each other compared to most other linguistic groups.

Yes most people told me also that Dari/Farsi is much easier to learn than Pashto and I also got the same impression but Farsi/Dari has so many confusing dialects and has a much richer vocabulary than Pashto if I am not wrong but Pashto has certainly a much more complicated grammar. Dari is also a beautiful language and interesting but I really like the special and hard to pronouncing sounds in Pashto and some of this sounds even exist in Russian also in some way :) Pashto shares many features and sounds with Indic languages which don't exist in Dari so it makes sense that he could much faster learn Pashto than Dari.

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 09:25 PM
..

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. It was very educational! Yes, my friend was from Oslo. Could you describe a hard/heavy "L", if possible? Why is it that you can understand 50% of Faroese but very little Finnish? What languages are closest/related to Finnish? Probably, your awesome little picture answers this, but I don't know all the flags! LOL!

Sein
07-27-2015, 09:50 PM
For what it's worth, I have complete fluency in Pashto, English, and Urdu, although English is the only language which I can read and write in (hopefully, I'll change that in a few months). As far as mother tongues go, I'd characterize all three as my languages, since I can think in my head using all three of them.

I picked up a little Dari from my father, who is a fluent speaker of Dari/Farsi, Uzbeki, and Urdu. Obviously, his mother tongue is Pashto. That, coupled with the Iranic overlap between Farsi and Pashto (plus shared Arabic vocabulary between Pashto and Farsi, plus substantial shared vocabulary between Farsi and Urdu), is occasionally enough for me to understand the gist of a Farsi conversation, but very rarely. I think it's a language that I really need to master, since it has such rich cultural/historical significance, and is the lingua franca of a nation with which I have very deep seated cultural and genetic ties (Afghanistan). Also, I just enjoy one-upping my father (:biggrin1:).

My mother is a fluent speaker of Pashto and Urdu, but has perfect comprehension when it comes to both Hindko and Seriaki (during her childhood, her father employed many hard-working men from the Seriaki region, and his workers would often visit my mother's childhood home for lunch and tea. My mother is a very observant person, so she quite easily picked up a lot from their conversations between each other, something which she was already prepared for via her knowledge of Hindko). I can understand some Punjabi, but mainly due to the overlap with Urdu, and not due to any real instruction from the parents.

A side note, but to me, spoken everyday Hindi is just Urdu with some tweaks here and there. I've had the opportunity to watch Indian TV news, and that was truly way past my head (lol). But Hindi as spoken by regular folks (and as spoken in most Bollywood movies, :D) is quite frankly almost indistinguishable to Urdu, and I consider Urdu one of my "mother tongues", so I feel that I can extend that to everyday spoken Hindi.

As to which Pashto dialect I feel most "at home in", it has to be the unadulterated form of northern Pukhto (there is such a thing as adulterated northern Pukhto. Mainly, as it is spoken in Peshawar). When I hear a Swati or Mardani talk, I feel like I'm listening to my kind of Pashto. But I have Karlani relatives, and their dialect is from a wholly different universe (lol). But, I still have perfect comprehension, and I can do a pretty solid parody of Karlani Pashto (which, hands down, has to be the most fun way of talking our language). Kandahari Pashto is also perfectly comprehensible to me, but I honestly can't do the accent for fun.

Weird fact, but I can do a pretty damn solid southern American accent, always a hit with the crowds.

B) :biggrin1:

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 10:09 PM
Yeah one of the youngest lol, what languages do you speak btw?

I speak English the best; I placed out of all English class requirements in university... Thank God for AP classes! LOL.
I grew up understanding Saraiki, Punjabi, Urdu, and little Dari. I understood Saraiki, because of my Father and his siblings. I understood Urdu because of my Mother. I suppose if my Grandmother lived in the States when I was a child, I would be much more fluent in Dari, as my mother would speak it more often. I understood Punjabi, because my Father would speak it to Punjabi speakers (majority of South Asians where I grew up). When my Father speaks Punjabi, it is obvious he isn't a native speaker... I understand his simplistic Punjabi the best. As such, I have difficulty understanding anyone who speaks "tait" or pure Punjabi of any dialect or region; I am very dependent on usage of Saraiki conjugations or Urdu mixing to understand clearly. However, with age, I think I can understand even person from Ludhiana or Amritsar at least 75% of the time. Obviously, I understand Punjabi dialects spoken closest to the Indus river the best. I cannot speak Punjabi for the life of me, even if you held a gun to my head. The tonality is too unfamiliar. The Saraiki variant I am most familiar with is much more like Sindhi than Punjabi in terms of verbs/nouns (all Arabic lexicon in Sindhi is also in Saraiki, ie. The word for onion is "thoum" not "pyaaz"); it's cadence is much more like Pashto and it's inflections much more like Balochi. So even if a simple sentence such as, "where are you from?" can be said using the same exact words in certain dialects of Punjabi and Saraiki; how it is said is very different. Unless you have a familiarity with both languages, you won't understand it right away.

I took Urdu classes in University. Until then, I had quite some difficulty telling the difference between Punjabi and Urdu, except for the tonal aspects. In college, I became friends with some Karachi folks who were originally from Lucknow and Bihar; when they spoke, I learned a lot of proper grammar and conjugations. I still have great difficulty when it comes to genders of things. I usually just assume if the object ends with an ee/ii sound it is feminine, and if it ends with an aa/ey sound it is masculine. When neither applies I just make it up. To this day I am not sure if it is: Coke pheni hain? OR Coke phena haan?

I understand 45-55% of Sindhi just by understanding Saraiki. I suppose if I knew Saraiki very-well, that percentage would be higher.

I understand 60-75% of Hindko, Pahari, Dogri, and Mirpuri; because of being familiar with BOTH Saraiki and Punjabi. Where these languages differ in Punjabi, they find similarity in Saraiki. Elements unique to each of them is where I lose the ability to understand. The same applies to Marwari; where it is similar to Sindhi or Punjabi and Saraiki, I understand; where it is only similar to Sindhi or unique to itself, I don't. The major obstacle in understanding general conversation in most of the languages is mostly pronunciation rather than actual words or grammar.

I lived in Pakistan for 5 years; in doing so I became familiar with Balochi, Pashto, Khowari, Shina, and Buroshashki. I know little phrases of each; and have heard them spoken enough that I usually can differentiate between them by sound alone. Obviously, I am more familiar with Balochi and Pashto than the others. I had a great opportunity to learn many languages in Pakistan; most of my friends were Afghans or from the Northern Areas; but unfortunately they were way more interested in learning English than teaching me their language hahahaha! I became very fluent in Urdu while I lived in Pakistan. Before that, I struggled to speak 3 sentences in Urdu, even though I could understand. Returning to the US, has made me less so. No matter my level of fluency, I have always spoken with a Saraiki or Dari accent, on account of my Father and Grandmother. If I speak more than 5 sentences, I cannot retain the proper Urdu accent unless I really concentrate on it. I speak mostly with a Dari accent, because I speak Urdu the most with my Grandmother. With everyone else in my immediate family, English is understood. Though my Father has no accent when he speaks Urdu, I am used to hearing him speak Saraiki, and for some reason when I speak Urdu... I imitate his Saraiki cadence, inflections, and pronunciations in the wrong language; the same thing applies to my Grandmother and Dari... I continually switch back and forth, not realizing. For this reason, most Pashtun in Pakistan thought I was Pashtun when they first met me and we spoke. In my 2nd week there, an Afghan Achakzai came to me and said, "You should kill yourself that you do not speak your mother-tongue of Pashtu"! I replied, "Bro, I am not pashtun". Then he was like, "O okay, your good then. In that case, what's up"? Hahaha.

khanabadoshi
07-27-2015, 10:28 PM
For what it's worth, I have complete fluency in Pashto, English, and Urdu, although English is the only language which I can read and write in (hopefully, I'll change that in a few months). As far as mother tongues go, I'd characterize all three as my languages, since I can think in my head using all three of them.

I picked up a little Dari from my father, who is a fluent speaker of Dari/Farsi, Uzbeki, and Urdu. Obviously, his mother tongue is Pashto. That, coupled with the Iranic overlap between Farsi and Pashto (plus shared Arabic vocabulary between Pashto and Farsi, plus substantial shared vocabulary between Farsi and Urdu), is occasionally enough for me to understand the gist of a Farsi conversation, but very rarely. I think it's a language that I really need to master, since it has such rich cultural/historical significance, and is the lingua franca of a nation with whom I have very deep seated cultural and genetic ties (Afghanistan). Also, I just enjoy one-upping my father (:biggrin1:).

My mother is a fluent speaker of Pashto and Urdu, but has perfect comprehension when it comes to both Hindko and Seriaki (during her childhood, her father employed many hard-working men from the Seriaki region, and his workers would often visit my mother's childhood home for lunch and tea. My mother is a very observant person, so she quite easily picked up a lot from their conversations between each other, something which she was already prepared for via her knowledge of Hindko). I can understand some Punjabi, but mainly due to the overlap with Urdu, and not due to any real instruction from the parents.

A side note, but to me, spoken everyday Hindi is just Urdu with some tweaks here and there. I've had the opportunity to watch Indian TV news, and that was truly way past my head (lol). But Hindi as spoken by regular folks (and as spoken in most Bollywood movies, :D) is quite frankly almost indistinguishable to Urdu, and I consider Urdu one of my "mother tongues", so I feel that I can extend that to everyday spoken Hindi.

As to which Pashto dialect I feel most "at home in", it has to be the unadulterated form of northern Pukhto (there is such a thing as adulterated northern Pukhto. Mainly, as it is spoken in Peshawar). When I hear a Swati or Mardani talk, I feel like I'm listening to my kind of Pashto. But I have Karlani relatives, and their dialect is from a wholly different universe (lol). But, I still have perfect comprehension, and I can do a pretty solid parody of Karlani Pashto (which, hands down, has to be the most fun way of talking our language). Kandahari Pashto is also perfectly comprehensible to me, but I honestly can't do the accent for fun.

Weird fact, but I can do a pretty damn solid southern American accent, always a hit with the crowds.

B) :biggrin1:


I am pretty damn good at my Southern Virgina charm and that Texan lean as well! LOL.

It's been a few years, so I can't remember if the Northern dialects tend to use the "sh" and the Southern dialects tend to use the "kh" or vice versa? ie. Peshawar vs. Pekhawar; Shaista vs Khaista; sha la vs kha la. Sidenote: All my relatives, Dari and Saraiki-speaking, call Peshawar, "Pe'shouwr". The "ouwr" being very softly spoken.

While I lived in Pakistan, there were always debates about Pashtu amongst my Afghanistan proper, Tribal Area, and KP area settled friends. From what I learned, Peshawar and Swat have very similar dialects. Kohatis understand the Waziris and other tribals the best; and the most divergent dialect of Pashtu is that of Lakki Marwat, which ironically, is a place where Saraiki is also spoken. My friend from Marwat told me that if he speaks in his dialect, no one understands him, so he must speak in other people's dialect to be understood. Also, something I found very interesting, there were a couple of Pashtuns who spoke Brahui as their first language. Yet, unlike Pashtuns who speak Saraiki, Urdu, or Punjabi; they were still very much accepted as being "Pashtun".

Totally agree about Urdu/Hindi; you can read my rant about that in the other thread. :)

evon
07-27-2015, 10:35 PM
Thanks a lot for answering my questions. It was very educational! Yes, my friend was from Oslo. Could you describe a hard/heavy "L", if possible? Why is it that you can understand 50% of Faroese but very little Finnish? What languages are closest/related to Finnish? Probably, your awesome little picture answers this, but I don't know all the flags! LOL!

Finnish is not an Indo-European language, while the others are all North Germanic.

http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/picturs/germanic.gif

So Finnish is further away in terms of linguistic placement than Urdu is from North Germanic languages. Although due to heavy borrowing from Swedish etc, it is very influenced by Indo-European ways...

Faore Islands and Iceland were settled by people coming from Western Norway in the Middle ages, so naturally we understand each other a little, but our languages have taken different paths in terms of modern development...Bokmål and Nynorsk reflect two different developments also, with Nynorsk being "created" in modern times by cleansing away Danish, German etc influences that is present in Bokmål. This is why Nynorsk is closer to Icelandic etc..

Thick L:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_flap

Sein
07-27-2015, 11:00 PM
I am pretty damn good at my Southern Virgina charm and that Texan lean as well! LOL.

It's been a few years, so I can't remember if the Northern dialects tend to use the "sh" and the Southern dialects tend to use the "kh" or vice versa? ie. Peshawar vs. Pekhawar; Shaista vs Khaista; sha la vs kha la. Sidenote: All my relatives, Dari and Saraiki-speaking, call Peshawar, "Pe'shouwr". The "ouwr" being very softly spoken.

While I lived in Pakistan, there were always debates about Pashtu amongst my Afghanistan proper, Tribal Area, and KP area settled friends. From what I learned, Peshawar and Swat have very similar dialects. Kohatis understand the Waziris and other tribals the best; and the most divergent dialect of Pashtu is that of Lakki Marwat, which ironically, is a place where Saraiki is also spoken. My friend from Marwat told me that if he speaks in his dialect, no one understands him, so he must speak in other people's dialect to be understood. Also, something I found very interesting, there were a couple of Pashtuns who spoke Brahui as their first language. Yet, unlike Pashtuns who speak Saraiki, Urdu, or Punjabi; they were still very much accepted as being "Pashtun".

Totally agree about Urdu/Hindi; you can read my rant about that in the other thread. :)

You and me, we are simultaneously gentlemen/cowboys. B) :biggrin1:

The northern dialects are "kh" and the southern dialects are "sh".

Interestingly, the areas of Swat, Mardan, Charsadda, and Peshawar constitute a local linguistic cluster within the broader northern Pashto grouping (with the next closest dialects being those used in Mohmand and Bajaur Agency in FATA + Nangarhar/Kunar/Laghman in Afghanistan).

The Kohatis are mostly Khattaks and Afridis, so they naturally find the Maseed/Wazir dialect to be rather comprehensible (these all fall under the rather divergent central Karlani dialect group).

Lakki Marwat certainly has some tough Pashto. Any area close to Bannu will be home to virtually incomprehensible Pashto dialectal forms.

Although, maybe this is an eccentric detail specific only to my life, and although it is a highly unscientific observation, but for what it's worth, I've always found men from Lakki Marwat to have rather deep voices (and, much deeper than the average that I have in mind from listening all my life to other male speakers of any language). Basically, probably just a weird product of small contingencies in my life, but I have yet to met a Marwat with a high-pitched voice.

That's an interesting detail about Brahui speaking Pashtuns, I wasn't aware of this.

khanabadoshi
07-28-2015, 04:23 AM
You and me, we are simultaneously gentlemen/cowboys. B) :biggrin1:

The northern dialects are "kh" and the southern dialects are "sh".

Interestingly, the areas of Swat, Mardan, Charsadda, and Peshawar constitute a local linguistic cluster within the broader northern Pashto grouping (with the next closest dialects being those used in Mohmand and Bajaur Agency in FATA + Nangarhar/Kunar/Laghman in Afghanistan).

The Kohatis are mostly Khattaks and Afridis, so they naturally find the Maseed/Wazir dialect to be rather comprehensible (these all fall under the rather divergent central Karlani dialect group).

Lakki Marwat certainly has some tough Pashto. Any area close to Bannu will be home to virtually incomprehensible Pashto dialectal forms.

Although, maybe this is an eccentric detail specific only to my life, and although it is a highly unscientific observation, but for what it's worth, I've always found men from Lakki Marwat to have rather deep voices (and, much deeper than the average that I have in mind from listening all my life to other male speakers of any language). Basically, probably just a weird product of small contingencies in my life, but I have yet to met a Marwat with a high-pitched voice.

That's an interesting detail about Brahui speaking Pashtuns, I wasn't aware of this.

Holy cow! Your groupings refreshed my memory; totally true! Sometimes, I forget how lucky I was to meet so many different people, from so many different parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Asia as a whole, and the Arab world, all in one tiny city. I found the Mehsuds to be the most "patriotic" of the Pashtuns -- like they would go out of their way to highlight the smallest difference between them and any other Pashtun or of Pashtuns and other Pakistani populations in general. A common criticism you would hear from a Kohati when they meet a Swati was that they are "fake". This whole debate of who is real/fake is very relevant to a lot of Pashtuns. Despite these strong sentiments and ideals, even the most proud person of these crowds never harbored such a strong opinion that they would look down on others or segregate themselves. Interestingly, and seemingly paradoxical from the point of view of many people's assumptions, I found most people of the tribal areas to be the least divisive. They are EXTREMELY GOOD at learning every other language. It is such an uncanny talent. In fact, the most amazingly perfect Punjabi I have ever heard in my life was spoken by a Waziri. The person who taught me the most Urdu in Pakistan, was a Mardani. I didn't even know he was Pashtun, until one day he got a phone call and started started speaking Pashtu. I was like wth Abid?! Where are you from? Turns out the man quoting Ghalib and ish beyond my comprehension to me... is from a family that is a major producer of naswar! You can't get more stereotypical Pashtun than that!

Before living there, much of my knowledge or opinions on Pashtuns was based on what I heard other kids say in the US who might have grown up in Pakistan or general media, or Afghans kids... which, truthfully, wasn't much.... and if anything was said, made it seem that they are so different from us. For sure, I found a lot of Dari-speaking Afghans kids in the US to really stress differences amongst them and Pashtuns and Afghans as a whole compared to Central and South Asia in general. This really annoyed me, being genuinely curious wasn't an acceptable reason to tell me anything. In hindsight, these kids grew up in the States and probably didn't know much either, so I don't fault them -- we were all young. I only grew up knowing one Pashtun family from Herat, with the kids my age, with whom I was very close, not knowing much about life there or life in Pakistan. By time I went to college my curiosity really increased... only because, all the Punjabis in college called me a "Kochai!" I was like, wth does that mean? I say all this, because I found when I actually lived in Pakistan, that all stereotypes and perceptions that I had heard or been subjected to in the US to be totally wrong. I found that how I was raised was more similar to someone from Quetta than someone from Karachi. Contrary to my experience with Afghans growing up, the ones I met in Pakistan were super welcoming. They took the matter of answering my questions as a form of honor; it was a great sign of respect that I cared to learn about them. I loved that type of response. It was really eye-opening, and I came to realize why my family gelled so well with all these varying groups of people who saw no similarity between each other. It was because we lived between them and had elements of each. So while many people of the region are proud of being Punjabi! or Pakhtun! or Sindhi! ... or whatever; I found a lot pride in being of the people who are the common thread between them.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Pashtuns taught the ABCD dude who he was; and life there taught that dude that the word "Pakistan" is only useful as a geographical description -- it is far too broad a term to apply to anything else; and that Afghanistan is a pickup truck and a 1000 rupees away.

And the most important point, the whole reason I clicked reply ---- EVERY SINGLE MAN FROM LAKKI MARWAT HAS A TROMBONE IN THEIR THROAT or something..... 100% on point, all Marwatis I have met had really deep voices.

khanabadoshi
07-28-2015, 04:39 AM
Finnish is not an Indo-European language, while the others are all North Germanic.

http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/picturs/germanic.gif

So Finnish is further away in terms of linguistic placement than Urdu is from North Germanic languages. Although due to heavy borrowing from Swedish etc, it is very influenced by Indo-European ways...

Faore Islands and Iceland were settled by people coming from Western Norway in the Middle ages, so naturally we understand each other a little, but our languages have taken different paths in terms of modern development...Bokmål and Nynorsk reflect two different developments also, with Nynorsk being "created" in modern times by cleansing away Danish, German etc influences that is present in Bokmål. This is why Nynorsk is closer to Icelandic etc..

Thick L:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_flap

Thanks for correcting my confusion. I don't know why I got stubbornly stuck on Finnish! The diagram really brings clarity in regards to the relationships of these languages. You taught me more about the languages of Northern Europe in 2-3 posts than sum-total of my previous knowledge! Hahah!

Coldmountains
07-28-2015, 04:52 AM
Thanks for correcting my confusion. I don't know why I got stubbornly stuck on Finnish! The diagram really brings clarity in regards to the relationships of these languages. You taught me more about the languages of Northern Europe in 2-3 posts than sum-total of my previous knowledge! Hahah!

Finnish is a Finno-Ugrian/Uralic Language closest related to Estonian and Karelian (spoken in Northwest Russia close to the Russian-Finnish border). But most Finno-Ugrian languages are today spoken in Russia (North Russia, Siberia, Volga region). Prior to the Slavic migration from the southwest most of the non-steppe regions in West Russia were populated by Finno-Ugrians. Even today many Russians are of Finno-Ugrian origin. Even the name of the Russian capital Moscow is of Finno-Ugrian origin in the end if I am not wrong. Linguists are unsure about the relationship between Indo-European and Finno-Ugrian/Uralic languages but it seems that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived close to Proto-Uralics and that Finno-Ugrian/Uralic languages are the language family with whom Indo-European languages share the most features (maybe the result of a "genetic" relationship or just of linguistic contacts since ancient times)

5331
5332

MikeWhalen
07-28-2015, 11:45 AM
fascinating discussion folks
...you speak of places that are far far away from me, that I only read/hear about in the news, so the anecdotes you relate are fun to read

I have always admired how most non North Americans can often speak/navigate several languages

when I was a kid, I took some french classes, so for a time I was bilingual, but after high school I never had the occasion to use it so I have lost it completely

Now, I am fluent in English only, some days, barely that!
Although there are a few Mods on this forum that would say I am fluent in cussing, I don't think that counts

:)

Mike

DMXX
07-28-2015, 05:40 PM
...

Everything Coldmountains just posted is spot on.

For those interested in learning more about the speculated common genetic* origins between Indo-European and Uralic, "Indo-Uralic" is the term used for this conceptual macro-language family.

*"genetic" in linguistics refers to the familial relationship between languages and does not encompass anything to do with biological ancestry

khanabadoshi
07-28-2015, 08:27 PM
.....

I have a little light reading to do because of you! Haha!

dp
07-28-2015, 08:30 PM
isn't Finnish related to Hungarian?
dp
EDIT: I just read Coldmountains post. It's very thorough :-) My algebra "AL (like Al the given name) +gebra (like zebra)" math professor was Hungarian and told us that her language was related to Finnish. I remember she spelled PH- words like Physics with an F-.
dp


Finnish is not an Indo-European language, while the others are all North Germanic.

http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/picturs/germanic.gif

So Finnish is further away in terms of linguistic placement than Urdu is from North Germanic languages. Although due to heavy borrowing from Swedish etc, it is very influenced by Indo-European ways...

Faore Islands and Iceland were settled by people coming from Western Norway in the Middle ages, so naturally we understand each other a little, but our languages have taken different paths in terms of modern development...Bokmål and Nynorsk reflect two different developments also, with Nynorsk being "created" in modern times by cleansing away Danish, German etc influences that is present in Bokmål. This is why Nynorsk is closer to Icelandic etc..

Thick L:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_flap

khanabadoshi
07-28-2015, 08:31 PM
For those interested, the best example of "pure" Saraiki I can find:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INl8Yg91zQQ

It's a comical story about an old man and a young man who is selling a goat. It is a very accurate example of daily conversational speech. Even though many of you won't understand it, a lot of people do enjoy just hearing it being spoken.

I am curious as to how much a Punjabi or Urdu speaker might understand.

Coldmountains
07-28-2015, 08:52 PM
I have a little light reading to do because of you! Haha!

I recommend this site for further information about FU languages.(http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/Hki/fufaq.html) It is interesting to note that FU languages have very archaic Proto-Indo-Iranian, Old Iranian and even a remarkable number of old Indo-Aryan loanwords. So Proto-Indo-Iranians lived certainly next to Finno-Ugrian tribes and influenced them also in some way.

khanabadoshi
07-28-2015, 08:58 PM
I recommend this site for further information about FU languages.(http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/Hki/fufaq.html) It is interesting to note that FU languages have very archaic Proto-Indo-Iranian, Old Iranian and even a remarkable number of old Indo-Aryan loanwords. So Proto-Indo-Iranians lived certainly next to Finno-Ugrian tribes and influenced them also in some way.

Thank you very much for the reference! I will check it out over the next couple of days.

Sein
07-29-2015, 12:07 AM
Holy cow! Your groupings refreshed my memory; totally true! Sometimes, I forget how lucky I was to meet so many different people, from so many different parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Asia as a whole, and the Arab world, all in one tiny city. I found the Mehsuds to be the most "patriotic" of the Pashtuns -- like they would go out of their way to highlight the smallest difference between them and any other Pashtun or of Pashtuns and other Pakistani populations in general. A common criticism you would hear from a Kohati when they meet a Swati was that they are "fake". This whole debate of who is real/fake is very relevant to a lot of Pashtuns. Despite these strong sentiments and ideals, even the most proud person of these crowds never harbored such a strong opinion that they would look down on others or segregate themselves. Interestingly, a seemingly paradoxically from the point of view of many people's assumptions; I found most people of the tribal areas to be the least divisive. They are EXTREMELY GOOD at learning every other language. It is such an uncanny talent. In fact, the most amazingly perfect Punjabi I have ever heard in my life was spoken by a Waziri. The person who taught me the most Urdu in Pakistan, was a Mardani. I didn't even know he was Pashtun, until one day he got a phone call and started started speaking Pashtu. I was like wth Abid?! Where are you from? Turns out the man quoting Ghalib and ish beyond my comprehension to me... is from a family that is a major producer of naswar! You can't get more stereotypical Pashtun than that!

Before living there, much of my knowledge or opinions on Pashtuns was based on what I heard other kids say in the US who might have grown up in Pakistan or general media, or Afghans kids... which, truthfully, wasn't much.... and if anything was said, made it seem that they are so different from us. For sure, I found a lot of Dari-speaking Afghans kids in the US to really stress differences amongst them and Pashtuns and Afghans as a whole compared to Central and South Asia in general. This really annoyed me, being genuinely curious wasn't an acceptable reason to tell me anything. In hindsight, these kids grew up in the States and probably didn't know much either, so I don't fault them -- we were all young. I only grew up knowing one Pashtun family from Herat, with the kids my age with whom I was very close, not knowing much about life there or life in Pakistan. By time I went to college my curiosity really increased... only because, all the Punjabis in college called me a "Kochai!" I was like wth does that mean? I say all this, because I found when I actually lived in Pakistan, that all stereotypes and perceptions that I had heard or been subjected to in the US to be totally wrong. I found that how I was raised was more similar to someone from Quetta than someone from Karachi. Contrary to my experience with Afghans growing up, the ones I met in Pakistan were super welcoming. They took the matter of answering my questions as a form of honor; it was a great sign of respect that I cared to learn about them. I loved that type of response. It was really eye-opening, and I came to realize why my family gelled so well with all these varying groups of people who saw no similarity between each other. Is was because we lived between them and had elements of each. So while many people of the region are proud of being Punjabi! or Pakhtun! or Sindhi! ... or whatever; I found a lot pride in being of the people who are the common thread between them.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Pashtuns taught the ABCD dude who he was; and life there taught that dude that the word "Pakistan" is only useful as a geographical description -- it is far too broad a term to apply to anything else; and that Afghanistan is a pickup truck and a 1000 rupees away.

And the most important point, the whole reason I clicked reply ---- EVERY SINGLE MAN FROM LAKKI MARWAT HAS A TROMBONE IN THEIR THROAT or something..... 100% on point, all Marwatis I have met had really deep voices.

You've hit the nail right on the head; this is a recurrent theme among Pashtuns. For example, if one talks to Khostwal Pashtun refugees among the Khattak, and if one asks them for their opinions on the Khattak tribe, the typical response is along the lines of "these men may speak Pashto, but they do not do Pashto!". And Swati Pashtuns often do get accused of being fake Pashtuns by "hardcore" Karlani Pashtuns from the tribal belt. Funny fact, Wazirs never say Pashtunwali, but rather Wazirwola.

And just as you've noted, these opinions never translate into personal disrespect or social distance between the people involved. As I'm sure you found out for yourself, Pashtuns are probably the most polite people in Pakistan (obviously, I'm generalizing and stereotyping here, but you know what I mean), when it comes to personal and social interaction. Obviously, all Pakistanis (in general) tend to be very hospitable and open people, but I think Pashtuns take this to a whole different level. And, Pashtuns tend to be very open to cultural diversity and differentiation, and tend to be very far from any form of xenophobia. This is somewhat surprising considering the fundamentally tribal nature of Pashtun culture (although this is something that has been reduced by a massive extent over the years. Anyway, tribal structures/politics are virtually non-existent in the settled districts), and somewhat surprising considering the intense amount of ethnic pride many Pashtuns feel and display. Then again, that might (in a strange sort of way) contribute to the tolerance and openness?

Personally, I also enjoy being simultaneously a part of different cultural "worlds", and being able to smoothly transition between them/participate within each of them.

Lol, it's nice to know that this wasn't just a weird quirk that only I have noticed. I guess it might be something in the water up there. :biggrin1:

surbakhunWeesste
07-29-2015, 03:08 AM
[
QUOTE=Coldmountains;98351]Ironically I know much more Afghan Pashtuns who took Russian wifes than Afghan Tajiks. It is true that dari speaking Kabuli were the most pro-Russian oriented but many of this Kabuli communists were actually of Pashtun ancestry but got culturally tajikized and adopted dari when they or their ancestors settled in Kabul. My father's family are Pashtuns from Paghman (a rural region located in the Kabul province quite close to Kabul but predominantly populated by Ghilzai Pashtuns) which were culturally tajikized when they settled in the City of Kabul. Many Pashtuns were actually pro-Russian and studied in the Soviet Union and almost all major political leaders during this period like Najibullah, Taraki, Hafizullah Amin ,... were of Pashtun ancestry. The communist Khalq party (ironically many members were rural Ghilzai Pashtuns) was in some cases almost a pashtun nationalist party and they were the most radical communists. My Grandfather and father studied in the Soviet Union and here my father found my half russian/half Ukrainian mother. My father's family are still great fans of Najibullah and the Soviet Union but i think a bit different about that.


Quite interesting, Afghan Pashtuns from South and West repulse the Soviets because many of their family members especially elder men were slaughtered in front of their eyes in provinces like Kandahar, Helmand, Farah... My relatives were some amongst the slaughtered. Seems, Pashtuns from different regions would share regional viewpoint/sentiments(perhaps).


Yes most people told me also that Dari/Farsi is much easier to learn than Pashto and I also got the same impression but Farsi/Dari has so many confusing dialects and has a much richer vocabulary than Pashto if I am not wrong but Pashto has certainly a much more complicated grammar. Dari is also a beautiful language and interesting but I really like the special and hard to pronouncing sounds in Pashto and some of this sounds even exist in Russian also in some way :) Pashto shares many features and sounds with Indic languages which don't exist in Dari so it makes sense that he could much faster learn Pashto than Dari.


I think Pashto has more dialects than farsi/dari does. I can count at least 15 dialects of Pashto.

Sharing my observation:
dari/farsi shares nouns, adjectives with indic language say Hindi.... esp colloquial ones which should make it easier for the learner to understand and pick up. I made list that comes to my mind for reference, Pashto is added for fun.

http://i.imgur.com/jv7lATs.png

Coldmountains
07-29-2015, 03:42 AM
[
Quite interesting, Afghan Pashtuns from South and West repulse the Soviets because many of their family members especially elder men were slaughtered in front of their eyes, in provinces like Kandahar, Helmand, Farah... My relatives were some amongst the slaughtered.
I've talked to many Afghans, who had family members which fought on the other side so I know of this terrible war crimes (very sad what happened to your relatives) and large areas got simply destroyed by bombings and brutal fighting. This is also the reason why I think different about the war than most of my relatives. Some lived good in this times, when they cooperated with the authorities and find a "way" to make money in this situation but most especially outside of Kabul lost much and saw the dark side of "Communism" and "Soviet-Afghan Friendship". But I also got the impression that Durrani Pashtuns and also Tajiks were more anti-soviet oriented than eastern Ghilzai Pashtuns, which increased their power and influences during this period because the Durrani got marginalized.



I think Pashto has more dialects than farsi/dari does. I can count at least 15 dialects of Pashto.

Sharing my observation:
dari/farsi shares nouns, adjectives with indic language say Hindi.... esp colloquial ones which should make it easier for the learner to understand and pick up. I made list that comes to my mind for reference, Pashto is added for fun.


http://i.imgur.com/jv7lATs.png
Thanks :) , this was just my impression based on the fact that Dari/Farsi is so widespread and spoken in so many countries. Every Tajik or Persian I ask says me almost a different word for something but Farsi is really rich in synonyms and often there is also an Arabic word for something.

Toor
07-29-2015, 07:35 PM
Raised as a coconut, English only.
Same as me, I managed to pick up a good amount of Hindi but wouldn't call myself fluent at all.

khanabadoshi
07-29-2015, 10:25 PM
Another example of pretty awesome Saraiki. It gets slightly raunchy, but it's mostly all jokes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdWkxUFiMrk

surbakhunWeesste
07-30-2015, 09:57 AM
This whole debate of who is real/fake is very relevant to a lot of Pashtuns. Despite these strong sentiments and ideals, even the most proud person of these crowds never harbored such a strong opinion that they would look down on others or segregate themselves. Interestingly, and seemingly paradoxical from the point of view of many people's assumptions, I found most people of the tribal areas to be the least divisive.

Pretty sane picture of Pakistani Pakhtuns there, makes sense how 'others' there were Pashtunfied in that region without much difficulty.


They are EXTREMELY GOOD at learning every other language. It is such an uncanny talent. In fact, the most amazingly perfect Punjabi I have ever heard in my life was spoken by a Waziri. The person who taught me the most Urdu in Pakistan, was a Mardani. I didn't even know he was Pashtun, until one day he got a phone call and started started speaking Pashtu. I was like wth Abid?! Where are you from? Turns out the man quoting Ghalib and ish beyond my comprehension to me... is from a family that is a major producer of naswar! You can't get more stereotypical Pashtun than that!

So, stereotypocal Pakhtun in Pakistan means the one who produces naswar?


Before living there, much of my knowledge or opinions on Pashtuns was based on what I heard other kids say in the US who might have grown up in Pakistan or general media, or Afghans kids... which, truthfully, wasn't much.... and if anything was said, made it seem that they are so different from us. For sure, I found a lot of Dari-speaking Afghans kids in the US to really stress differences amongst them and Pashtuns and Afghans as a whole compared to Central and South Asia in general. This really annoyed me, being genuinely curious wasn't an acceptable reason to tell me anything.
In hindsight, these kids grew up in the States and probably didn't know much either, so I don't fault them -- we were all young. I only grew up knowing one Pashtun family from Herat, with the kids my age, with whom I was very close, not knowing much about life there or life in Pakistan. By time I went to college my curiosity really increased... only because, all the Punjabis in college called me a "Kochai!" I was like, wth does that mean? I say all this, because I found when I actually lived in Pakistan, that all stereotypes and perceptions that I had heard or been subjected to in the US to be totally wrong. I found that how I was raised was more similar to someone from Quetta than someone from Karachi. Contrary to my experience with Afghans growing up, the ones I met in Pakistan were super welcoming. They took the matter of answering my questions as a form of honor; it was a great sign of respect that I cared to learn about them. I loved that type of response. It was really eye-opening, and I came to realize why my family gelled so well with all these varying groups of people who saw no similarity between each other. It was because we lived between them and had elements of each. So while many people of the region are proud of being Punjabi! or Pakhtun! or Sindhi! ... or whatever; I found a lot pride in being of the people who are the common thread between them.

Its not just dari-speaking Afghan kids its overall Afghans who will stress the difference. Its a human trait that makes us form an identity for self and a group altogether and stand by or else there would be no ethnicity or country....
Most Afghan diaspora knows more about Afghan history; the suffering; the overall fiasco of the native population (privileged and informed) and hence there is an emotional tsunami that they harbor. I am a second gen. Afghan and I was not raised a coconut in anyway. But, we do have S-Central Asian coconut diaspora and like you said its not their fault. Most Afghans you'd meet in Pakistan are refugees who were fortunate to have survived, yet, I am not sure if you really have seen the slums of Karachi and overall Southern Pakistan where most Afghan refugees basically live a pathetic life in a third world country who are anything but welcoming. Its a harsh and bold statement to make but its a fact. I am glad you met friendly Afghans.


I guess what I'm saying is that the Pashtuns taught the ABCD dude who he was; and life there taught that dude that the word "Pakistan" is only useful as a geographical description -- it is far too broad a term to apply to anything else; and that Afghanistan is a pickup truck and a 1000 rupees away.

As I read thru it , not sure how I should perceive it.

Sein
07-30-2015, 11:13 AM
So, stereotypocal Pakhtun in Pakistan means the one who produces naswar?

From my experience, other Pakistanis often display very conflicting and contradictory stereotypes about Pashtuns, and maintain/mention all those conflicting/contradictory stereotypes at the same time. For example, other Pakistanis will often characterize Pashtuns with these sorts of positive stereotypes. Like us supposedly being very "valiant", "brave", "honorable", "generous", "hospitable", "kind", "honest", "polite", etc. They'll also have more ambiguous stereotypes, which are often mentioned, like Pashtuns being "hard/tough" people, or Pashtuns being "simple" people. But you'll also see some very negative stereotypes, which I find very saddening. Mainly, Pashtuns are often construed by other Pakistanis as being "violent", "vengeful", "short-tempered", "envious", "ignorant", "stupid", "primitive", "misogynistic", and other very unwholesome traits. There is also an association between the Pakistani Taliban and Pashtun ethnicity, and with home-grown Pakistani terrorism in general.

For what it's worth, when my father was a young man on hard times, our whole family lived in the slums of Karachi alongside fellow Pashtuns from Afghanistan, so I can certainly agree that it is a terrible socio-economic existence, although the social bonds were apparently very solid.

khanabadoshi
07-30-2015, 11:32 AM
So, stereotypocal Pakhtun in Pakistan means the one who produces naswar?



From a farming perspective certain crops are associated with specific areas and thus people. Tobacco cultivation and naswar production is a very large business in Mardarn/Charssada/Peshawar areas; almost all cultivators of tobacco are Pashtuns. If someone tells you they farm tobacco in Pakistan, the immediate correlation is that they are Pashtun. So the opposite wording: "stereotypical producer of naswar is Pashtun" is what was meant -- which obviously my friend understood. "You can't get more stereotypical Pashtun than that!" was me paraphrasing my response to him telling me he cultivates tobacco. The actual conversation was:

Abid, since when do you speak Pashtu?
I am a Pathan, son!
What!..you nev-..Your Urdu is perf...
My father and uncles have a naswar production plant, and we farm a lot of tobacco!
Oh! You MUST be Pashtun!
100%! Do you see this face God gifted me? Hahahahahaha!

I sensed that you may have taken offense to the statement, hopefully, context alleviates that.

EDIT: For the sake of even more clarity, the assumption is only relevant to areas where tobacco is grown; you are not going to assume a cultivator is Sindhi because they rarely grow the crop and you aren't going to assume a Waziri cultivates tobacco because he is Pashtun. The statement is actually more fact than assumption: Tobacco is only successfully cultivated under certain conditions which are found in a specific geographical area that is owned and farmed exclusively by the Pashtuns of the area. It is analogous to a mango cultivator being either from Multan or Sindh.

The rest I'll reply to later. (Maybe) Those topics are difficult to discuss objectively and run the risk of becoming argumentative and personal when discussed more than superficially. I will actually have to sit and think deeply about all that I know and all that I have personally experienced to give you a true answer that is divorced from generalizations, sentiment, and conjecture. It's a tall order and I am lazy man. I am capable of the effort, but more often then not people don't do the same in return. It becomes a total waste of my time. So we'll see.


-------
Just as a general statement, not directed anyone or for any reason other than for the sake of establishing my premise: Everything I write is based on the fact that I have spent a formidable chunk of my adult life in Pakistan at the 2nd most diverse learning institute of the country, and very recently so. I am more knowledgeable in the current situations of life, the opinions of the people, and general realities than my parents who were born and raised there. These societies are not the same as when our families immigrated; time and circumstance changes things. Diasporas communities of every nation and culture always make the fallacy of assuming time has stood still since they left. The reality is the opposite -- societies change and certain individuals stay still.

It is my extremely humble suggestion that in these matters, what I say may be taken as more reliable and current than what my uncle who moved in 1982, my cousin who reads a lot but has never been there, or my brother who has only visited for a few months at a time says. Just food for thought.

MikeWhalen
07-30-2015, 01:42 PM
just as an FYI for those keeping up with the convo but like me, did not know what this was....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naswar

"Naswār (Pashto: نسوار‎; Cyrillic script: насва́р), also called nās (ناس; на́с), nāts (ناڅ; на́ц), or nasvay (نسوای; насвай), is a moist, powdered tobacco snuff consumed mostly in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan and Ireland. Naswar is stuffed in the floor of the mouth under the lower lip, or inside the cheek, for extended periods of time. It is similar to dipping tobacco and snuf."

Mike

surbakhunWeesste
07-30-2015, 06:44 PM
just as an FYI for those keeping up with the convo but like me, did not know what this was....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naswar

"Naswār (Pashto: نسوار‎; Cyrillic script: насва́р), also called nās (ناس; на́с), nāts (ناڅ; на́ц), or nasvay (نسوای; насвай), is a moist, powdered tobacco snuff consumed mostly in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan and Ireland. Naswar is stuffed in the floor of the mouth under the lower lip, or inside the cheek, for extended periods of time. It is similar to dipping tobacco and snuf."

Mike

Most similar product in the US and perhaps in Canada would be
http://kmessage.novea.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/grizzly-range2.png

surbakhunWeesste
07-30-2015, 07:31 PM
The actual conversation was:

[QUOTE]Abid, since when do you speak Pashtu?
I am a Pathan, son!
What!..you nev-..Your Urdu is perf...
My father and uncles have a naswar production plant, and we farm a lot of tobacco!
Oh! You MUST be Pashtun!
100%! Do you see this face God gifted me? Hahahahahaha!

Interesting, I thought only the Indian "Pashtuns" called themselves Pathan, unlike Pakistani Pakhtuns and Pashtuns. Our dialectical distinction is directly proportional to what we call ourselves. At least Afghan Pashtuns do, and I have met many Pakistani Pakhtuns who follow that "rule".


I sensed that you may have taken offense to the statement, hopefully, context alleviates that.


Umm, Nah, presumptions can be lethal that can lead to nuisance arguments. I just wanted a clarification since you said "stereotypical...Pashtun" to which I read your reply. If Pashtuns are known for naswars then be it. Parts of the Southern, Western and Eastern Afghanistan are filled with Poppy(major warlord business), however that's not a definition of a stereotypical Pashtun in Afghanistan.



The rest I'll reply to later. (Maybe) Those topics are difficult to discuss objectively and run the risk of becoming argumentative and personal when discussed more than superficially. I will actually have to sit and think deeply about all that I know and all that I have personally experienced to give you a true answer that is divorced from generalizations, sentiment, and conjecture. [B]It's a tall order and I am lazy man. I am capable of the effort, but more often then not people don't do the same in return. It becomes a total waste of my time. So we'll see.


You got me I like to be precise and to the point than put up with 200 words essay, I suffer from ADHD, I can take sometime because lazy and deprived attention on the material to actually read long essays and hence the delay in reply.

-------

Just as a general statement, not directed anyone or for any reason other than for the sake of establishing my premise: Everything I write is based on the fact that I have spent a formidable chunk of my adult life in Pakistan at the 2nd most diverse learning institute of the country, and very recently so. I am more knowledgeable in the current situations of life, the opinions of the people, and general realities than my parents who were born and raised there. These societies are not the same as when our families immigrated; time and circumstance changes things. Diasporas communities of every nation and culture always make the fallacy of assuming time has stood still since they left. The reality is the opposite -- societies change and certain individuals stay still.

So, do I. A big chunk of my family works for the Afghan refugees I spoke of in Pakistan and other countries. Its a first hand experience for me as well. I still have refugee relatives there.


It is my extremely humble suggestion that in these matters, what I say may be taken as more reliable and current than what my uncle who moved in 1982, my cousin who reads a lot but has never been there, or my brother who has only visited for a few months at a time says. Just food for thought.

That's a matter of interest and how much you relate to the "events" that will eventually make you concerned and the you'll act on it.

Kurd
07-30-2015, 08:20 PM
For those interested, the best example of "pure" Saraiki I can find:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INl8Yg91zQQ

It's a comical story about an old man and a young man who is selling a goat. It is a very accurate example of daily conversational speech. Even though many of you won't understand it, a lot of people do enjoy just hearing it being spoken.

I am curious as to how much a Punjabi or Urdu speaker might understand.

Definitely more pure Saraiki than what you typically hear. I was only able to pick up around 60%, even though I consider myself decently fluent in Saraiki. Sounded like Saraiki from DG Khan area.

I would say a punjabi speaker may get about 10 to 15 %, and an urdu speaker about 0-5%. :)


Edit: I have to ask, how much would you say you understood?

Kaido
07-30-2015, 08:21 PM
Interesting, I thought only the Indian "Pashtuns" called themselves Pathan, unlike Pakistani Pakhtuns and Pashtuns. Our dialectical distinction is directly proportional to what we call ourselves. At least Afghan Pashtuns do, and I have met many Pakistani Pakhtuns who follow that "rule".

I think when speaking in urdu to a non-pashtun they'll refer to themselves as Pathan for whatever reason.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-30-2015, 08:44 PM
Definitely more pure Saraiki than what you typically hear. I was only able to pick up around 60%, even though I consider myself decently fluent in Saraiki. Sounded like Saraiki from DG Khan area.

I would say a punjabi speaker may get about 10 to 15 %, and an urdu speaker about 0-5%. :)

I could understand 50% of it. Sounds like punjabi and Pahari (himachal). Maybe because there is difference in punjabi dialects me and kurd speak. :)

Kurd
07-30-2015, 08:53 PM
I could understand 50% of it. Sounds like punjabi and Pahari (himachal). Maybe because there is difference in punjabi dialects me and kurd speak. :)

Good, you must understand more saraiki than the average punjabi, because a punjabi friend from Lahore told me he could only get 10-15%. Perhaps he only listened to it only once

MonkeyDLuffy
07-30-2015, 09:03 PM
Good, you must understand more saraiki than the average punjabi, because a punjabi friend from Lahore told me he could only get 10-15%.

Yea i am checking more videos of sarieki. Wiki says saraiki is 80% intelligible with dogri. No wonder it sounded like pahari and i could understand some of it. The punjabi spoken in my region (anandpur sahib) has a big influence of dogri and it's spoken faster than standard punjabi.

bored
07-30-2015, 09:55 PM
I am a native speaker of Dogri and Hindi/Urdu. I can also understand and speak Punjabi to an extent. I had a hard time understanding Saraiki in the video above but that may be because my Dogri is really bad. I don't use it much.
Of course I speak, read, and write English fluently. I know some French too.

Sapporo
07-31-2015, 03:06 AM
I can speak Punjablish. :)

I was 100% fluent as a child and it was my first language but once I started speaking English at home, Punjabi was all but lost. Still can carry on half decent convo with family but the Cali accent kills it. :\

Kurd, I can make out about 20-25% of the words he is saying and I'm not even 100% fluent in Punjabi. My grandparents probably passed down a mix of Malwi and Doabi Punjabi down to my parents. Grandfather taught Urdu in Lahore though so not sure if it influenced his Punjabi. Mother's family lived in Northern Rajasthan prior to migrating to states so not sure if the Punjabi spoken there is closer to Saraiki.

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 04:08 AM
Definitely more pure Saraiki than what you typically hear. I was only able to pick up around 60%, even though I consider myself decently fluent in Saraiki. Sounded like Saraiki from DG Khan area.

I would say a punjabi speaker may get about 10 to 15 %, and an urdu speaker about 0-5%. :)


Edit: I have to ask, how much would you say you understood?

80% I'd say. This is close to how my family speaks, my family lives nearby in Muzaffargarh. It's between the Derawali way of speaking Muzaffargarhi way. He used a few Punjabi verbs, ie. "haun-d'ai"/hotha/happens, which makes me think its in DG Khan, they use a few select punjabi verbs and pronouns. In pure Saraiki he would have said "thhin-d'ai". Saraiki is usually sung or spoken in very Punjabized dialects for the sake of mass understanding in songs or media. That's why many people think it's mutually intelligible. It is much closer to Sindhi than Punjabi, and the manner of speech is very unique. The whole language is spoken from your chest.

The language has very specific adjectives for agriculture and livestock, similar to how Arabic has many words for "sand". The conversation is between an old man who sees a younger man trying to sell a goat at the market. He asks a million questions about the goat. You probably understood the structure when he asked a question; "is it ____ or ____?" ; "do you wash it or does your _____ do it?" The adjectives and nouns are tough. A part that got a burst of laughs, "chitth-yn khassi-un?" -- "is it fertile or castrated"? I'm pretty sure khassi has the same meaning in Urdu/Hindi, but it's a pretty specific word, and even if you did know it, the way it's pronounced still makes it challenging to understand.

EDIT: I have to ask how is it that you are that familiar with Saraiki in the first place? A lot of people in Pakistan haven't even heard it. LOL.

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 04:35 AM
I could understand 50% of it. Sounds like punjabi and Pahari (himachal). Maybe because there is difference in punjabi dialects me and kurd speak. :)


Yea i am checking more videos of sarieki. Wiki says saraiki is 80% intelligible with dogri. No wonder it sounded like pahari and i could understand some of it. The punjabi spoken in my region (anandpur sahib) has a big influence of dogri and it's spoken faster than standard punjabi.


I am a native speaker of Dogri and Hindi/Urdu. I can also understand and speak Punjabi to an extent. I had a hard time understanding Saraiki in the video above but that may be because my Dogri is really bad. I don't use it much.
Of course I speak, read, and write English fluently. I know some French too.


I can speak Punjablish. :)

I was 100% fluent as a child and it was my first language but once I started speaking English at home, Punjabi was all but lost. Still can carry on half decent convo with family but the Cali accent kills it. :\

Kurd, I can make out about 20-25% of the words he is saying and I'm not even 100% fluent in Punjabi. My grandparents probably passed down a mix of Malwi and Doabi Punjabi down to my parents. Grandfather taught Urdu in Lahore though so not sure if it influenced his Punjabi. Mother's family lived in Northern Rajasthan prior to migrating to states so not sure if the Punjabi spoken there is closer to Saraiki.

All the Kashmiri dialects, Pahari, Dogri, Hindko, etc etc and Saraiki share in a good deal in common, especially in what they don't share with Punjabi. At the same time each has it's own unique twist -- which is why they aren't totally intelligible. I think cadence/tonality/inflections has a lot more to do with the difficulty understanding than the actual words themselves. It's a lot easier for me to understand Hindko or Dogri, because I see it them as in between Saraiki and Punjabi. In the same way Sindhi-speakers see Saraiki as in between Sindhi and Punjabi. That being said, 80% intelligibility is a tall claim -- maybe in general conversation, but not in "real" talk. There is no way I think I'd understand that much of any of these dialects. I'm pretty sure Pahari is spoken north of Rawalpindi, whatever dialect it was, it was way too fast for me.

Someone said something about Rajasthan... the 10 northern most districts, like 30% of Sindh speak Saraiki -- however, they call it Sindhi and term the dialects as Saraiki vs. Vicholi (most of Sindh speaks this). Saraiki actually means "North" in Sindhi. Rajasthan is next to it, so def there must be something going on.

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 06:24 AM
[QUOTE=khanabadoshi;98907] The actual conversation was:



Interesting, I thought only the Indian "Pashtuns" called themselves Pathan, unlike Pakistani Pakhtuns and Pashtuns. Our dialectical distinction is directly proportional to what we call ourselves. At least Afghan Pashtuns do, and I have met many Pakistani Pakhtuns who follow that "rule".



He generally called himself Pakhtun. He was using the play on words to be ironic knowing that I'd get it; He is calling himself 100%...but then he used the word "Pathan"?

In the context of Punjab though, Pathan is a pretty broad term, pretty much everyone to the north or west is called a Pathan. If you speak Hindko and are from Abbotabad or speak Buroshashki from Hunza -- you are called a pathan.


Most of the Afghans, the FATA, and KP folks used the word pathan when talking to someone who might have no familiarity with another word, especially someone from a rural area. They also tended to go with whatever word the conversation started with; ie. "Are you pathan?" or "Do the pashtun areas have such and such"... whatever the other person started with, they'll keep using. (If you say Pashtun/Pakhtun they'll 'fix' a "kh/sh" mistake for you inconspicuously during the conversation by using the word at some point.) I have never seen an instance where someone insisted that they be called Pakhtun/Pashtun and some dramatic situation arose. If the topic is actually about Pashtuns, then they will use "pashtun/pakhtun" word consistently and not use the word Pathan. If the word Afghan is used, someone would usually say "Afghan means Pashtun!", pretty much without fail.

Generally though, everyone referred to themselves based on their kh/sh distinctions and most non-Pashtuns called them Pathans -- even the other "pathans" (Hunza/Gilgit etc) and no one really thought much about it. .... except for this one dude....

But that's another story. :)

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 06:33 AM
Yea i am checking more videos of sarieki. Wiki says saraiki is 80% intelligible with dogri. No wonder it sounded like pahari and i could understand some of it. The punjabi spoken in my region (anandpur sahib) has a big influence of dogri and it's spoken faster than standard punjabi.


Check the other video I posted, with the group of men sitting and talking. 2 men speak in the video, do you understand both the same or is one easier and the other harder?

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 07:43 AM
just as an FYI for those keeping up with the convo but like me, did not know what this was....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naswar

"Naswār (Pashto: نسوار‎; Cyrillic script: насва́р), also called nās (ناس; на́с), nāts (ناڅ; на́ц), or nasvay (نسوای; насвай), is a moist, powdered tobacco snuff consumed mostly in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan and Ireland. Naswar is stuffed in the floor of the mouth under the lower lip, or inside the cheek, for extended periods of time. It is similar to dipping tobacco and snuf."

Mike

I feel so bad I didn't point it out before LOL. When I saw your link I totally smiled haha! I don't know why I find it so hilarious that Mike in Ontario is googling naswar. It reminds me when I first came back to the US, I was sitting googling words like "on fleek", and browsing yahoo answers to the question, "since when did guys start wearing tight jeans"? I was so out of the loop.

All this talk about stereotypes and naswar... I even forgot to mention that I actually used naswar and my friend didn't! I was just putting money into his pocket..

Disclaimer: Kids, don't use naswar. It's bad.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-31-2015, 10:43 AM
Check the other video I posted, with the group of men sitting and talking. 2 men speak in the video, do you understand both the same or is one easier and the other harder?

The one who speaks later is more understandable. :)

On topic: i can understand, speak and write Hindi/urdu, majority of dialects of Punjabi (gurmukhi script), English . Can speak almost fluent haryanvi and can somewhat understand pahari (himachal).

khanabadoshi
07-31-2015, 10:59 AM
The one who speaks later is more understandable. :)

On topic: i can understand, speak and write Hindi/urdu, majority of dialects of Punjabi (gurmukhi script), English . Can speak almost fluent haryanvi and can somewhat understand pahari (himachal).

A lot of haryanvis settled in southern punjab, most of them can't speak saraiki, but they understand it well. The 2nd guy was way more clear. First guy was all over the map with his stories lol. he is harder to understand for me because I don't understand the context of the story, its like an inside joke.

asghar
07-31-2015, 10:46 PM
All the Kashmiri dialects, Pahari, Dogri, Hindko, etc etc and Saraiki share in a good deal in common, especially in what they don't share with Punjabi. At the same time each has it's own unique twist -- which is why they aren't totally intelligible. I think cadence/tonality/inflections has a lot more to do with the difficulty understanding than the actual words themselves. It's a lot easier for me to understand Hindko or Dogri, because I see it them as in between Saraiki and Punjabi. In the same way Sindhi-speakers see Saraiki as in between Sindhi and Punjabi. That being said, 80% intelligibility is a tall claim -- maybe in general conversation, but not in "real" talk. There is no way I think I'd understand that much of any of these dialects. I'm pretty sure Pahari is spoken north of Rawalpindi, whatever dialect it was, it was way too fast for me.



There is only one Kashmiri language which is spoken in kashmir valley and some parts of chenab valley, it is called Kashur. Pahari of azad kashmir (actually Chibhali, azad kashmir areas were historically called chibhal), Hindko and dogri have nothing to do with Kashmiri/Kashur language. The closest living relative of Kashmiri/Kashur language is Shina of Chilas/Gilgit area.

asghar
07-31-2015, 11:03 PM
Interesting, I thought only the Indian "Pashtuns" called themselves Pathan, unlike Pakistani Pakhtuns and Pashtuns. Our dialectical distinction is directly proportional to what we call ourselves. At least Afghan Pashtuns do, and I have met many Pakistani Pakhtuns who follow that "rule".




Pathan in punjab region of pakistan is not exclusively used for pashto speakers, pathan designation is based more on phenotype than on the language of a people. In anthropology terms pathan in punjab region of pakistan is simply a person who belongs to a group from west or north of punjab which lack indic physical features and have either east-iranic or indo-nordic physical features. A panjsheri or kapisa persian speaking tajik is considered as much "pathan" as a pashto speaking person from paktia or waziristan as long as they fit into phenotype which people have in mind when they think of "pathans". A pashayi, a nuristani or a gilgiti or chitrali will also be called pathans in punjab because of their phenotype. So as far as pakistani punjab is concerned "pathan" is not solely connected to the language of north or north-west ethnic groups.
It is just a coincidence that a large number of "pathan" looking persons happen to be pashto speakers because of large population size of pashto speakers (which is mostly result of assimilations) as compared to eastern tajiks , nuristanis or norhtern dardics.

asghar
07-31-2015, 11:43 PM
On the topic of languages, the way I see it , for a punjabi from Lahore the saraiki appears to be a corrupted form of punjabi under sindhi influence. For a sindhi the saraiki would be considered a corrupted form of sindhi under the influence of modern punjabi. And for a saraiki punjabi would be considered a corrupted form of saraiki under the influence of urdu or hindi depending wheter we talk about pakistani punjabi or indian punjabi language. It is just a matter of perspective.

surbakhunWeesste
07-31-2015, 11:52 PM
[
QUOTE=asghar;99279]Pathan in punjab region of pakistan is not exclusively used for pashto speakers, pathan designation is based more on phenotype than on the language of a people.
What is a 'pathan' phenotype?


In anthropology terms pathan in punjab region of pakistan is simply a person who belongs to a group from west or north of punjab which lack indic physical features and have either east-iranic or indo-nordic physical features. A panjsheri or kapisa persian speaking tajik is considered as much "pathan" as a pashto speaking person from paktia or waziristan as long as they fit into phenotype which people have in mind when they think of "pathans".

No one in Afghanistan would call a Panjshiri a 'pathan' regardless of what their phenotype is! Where are you getting your conjectures from?


A pashayi, a nuristani or a gilgiti or chitrali will also be called pathans in punjab because of their phenotype. So as far as pakistani punjab is concerned "pathan" is not solely connected to the language of north or north-west ethnic groups.


Is this your own construction? Why would be a Punjabi be called a Pathan because of a 'phenotype' ? You are saying punajbis are Pashtuns?


It is just a coincidence that a large number of "pathan" looking persons happen to be pashto speakers because of large population size of pashto speakers as compared to eastern tajiks , nuristanis or norhtern dardics.

What is a "pathan' looking person again?

asghar
08-01-2015, 12:00 AM
[
What is a 'pathan' phenotype?



No one in Afghanistan would call a Panjshiri a 'pathan' regardless of what their phenotype is! Where are you getting your conjectures from?



Is this your own construction? Why would be a Punjabi be called a Pathan because of a 'phenotype' ? You are saying punajbis are Pashtuns?



What is a "pathan' looking person again?

I was talking about punjab not about afghanistan, most people in punjab pakistan don't even know what this word "pashtun" is. Pashtun is hardly ever heard in pakistani media as most of the pashto speakers in pakistan strictly refer to themselves as "Pakhtun". And yes "pathan" is considered a phenotype not a linguistic group. From my experience pashto speakers of southern afghanistan will probably not considered as "pathan" looking in punjab , they would be considered some exotic group like iranians.

surbakhunWeesste
08-01-2015, 12:08 AM
I was talking about punjab not about afghanistan, most people in punjab pakistan don't even know what this word "pashtun" is. And yes "pathan" is considered a phenotype not a linguistic group. From my experience pashto speakers of southern afghanistan will probably not considered as "pathan" looking in punjab , they would be considered some exotic group like iranians.

Pashto is spoken by almost every ethnicity as their mother tongue in Southern Afghanistan. So a Hazara who speaks pashto as his/her mother tongue from Helmand is an exotic Iranian for Punjabi people?

asghar
08-01-2015, 12:12 AM
Pashto is spoken by almost every ethnicity as their mother tongue in Southern Afghanistan. So a Hazara who speaks pashto as his/her mother tongue from Helmand is an exotic Iranian for Punjabi people?

Well it will depend on how he looks like in real life. I think we have a cultural difference, in my culture language has no importance what so ever in defining a people perhaps in some other culture the language is everthing.

surbakhunWeesste
08-01-2015, 12:18 AM
Well it will depend on how he looks like in real life.

Never heard a Punjabi or a Kashmiri giving up his/her ethnic identity to get the "pathan" tag or people calling themselves and others 'pathan' because there is a 'pathan phenotype' and they are confirming to it regardless of their ethnicity (esp. people with no Pashtun ancestry).


Well it will depend on how he looks like in real life. I think we have a cultural difference, in my culture language has no importance what so ever in defining a people perhaps in some other culture the language is everthing.

What is your culture?

asghar
08-01-2015, 12:29 AM
Never heard a Punjabi or a Kashmiri giving up his/her ethnic identity to get the "pathan" tag or people calling themselves and others 'pathan' because there is a 'pathan phenotype' and they are confirming to it regardless of their ethnicity (esp. people with no Pashtun ancestry).



What is your culture?

what is special about it.

DMXX
08-01-2015, 12:32 AM
what is special about it.

Given phenotype is, per your account, the main indicator of identity in your culture, and surbakhunWeesste apparently doesn't share your culture... Perhaps you should tell us?

surbakhunWeesste
08-01-2015, 12:43 AM
what is special about it.

Is that a rhetorical question? Pashtun is an ethnicity much more like any other ethnicity and its a Patriarchal one now. Why would a Kashmiri with no ethic ties with Pashtun be happy to be called a Pathan because a "Pathan phenotype". Also, you didn't answer my question.

asghar
08-01-2015, 12:51 AM
Is that a rhetorical question? Pashtun is an ethnicity much more like any other ethnicity and its a Patriarchal one now. Why would a Kashmiri with no ethic ties with Pashtun be happy to be called a Pathan because a "Pathan phenotype". Also, you didn't answer my question.

Not really, I genuinely want to know about any special status of pashtoooon ancestry.

surbakhunWeesste
08-01-2015, 12:57 AM
Not really, I genuinely want to know about any special status of pashtun ancestry because you are bringing it in almost every post of yours. In punjab being pashtun has zero importance.

Are you kidding me? You hinted people identify as "Pathan" because of Pathan phenotype in YOUR culture. No one said its IMPORTANT to be a Pashtun in Punjab. What a mockery.

Being Pashtun is a ethnic identity and no one said its important or unimportant, its about identity. You are running in circles now.

asghar
08-01-2015, 01:04 AM
Are you kidding me? You hinted people identify as "Pathan" because of Pathan phenotype in YOUR culture. No one said its IMPORTANT to be a Pashtun in Punjab. What a mockery.

Being Pashtun is a ethnic identity and no one said its important or unimportant, its about identity. You are running in circles now.

I will repeat again Pathan is not synonymous as "pashto speaker" in punjab. An eastern tajik, a pashayi, a nuristani or a chitrali are equally called pathan in punjab. I believe a pashtun would be someone who speaks "pashto" as his mother tongue. If pathan meant a pashto speaker then it would not have been used for eastern tajiks, nuristanis or chitrali who have nothing to do with pashto speaking populations who call themselves "pashtun" and are scattered over a large area and their physical features depend on the regions where they reside for centuries.

Moderator
08-01-2015, 01:10 AM
[MOD] Remain on topic (look @ thread title). Thanks for your cooperation.

khanabadoshi
08-01-2015, 06:25 AM
I go to sleep just this one time... LOL.

Kurd
08-01-2015, 05:11 PM
EDIT: I have to ask how is it that you are that familiar with Saraiki in the first place? A lot of people in Pakistan haven't even heard it. LOL.

Did'nt notice your question as I was in between flights in the airport. It is a little bit of a long story, but here it is in a nutshell. I picked it up growing up in Lahore from my mom, maternal grandparents, and friends.

My maternal grandparents trace their ancestry to Sarhadi Kurds from the area of Washt, now known as Khash Iran. For those not familiar with the Sarhad region, it roughly encompases the corrider from Khash to Zahidan and over to the Pakistan border, roughly latitude 27.5-30, and longitude 60-62. Their ancestors immigrated there from Iraq/Iran border area, and consisted of Zangana kurd tribe (Iraq/Iran), and Yelhani kurd tribe (Iran) during Shah Abbas era (late 1500s).

There are 6 main tribes in Sarhad, with each having sections, and sub-sections. According to accepted tradition, the 6 principal tribes mentioned arrived in Sarhad in the following order:

First, the Kurds;
Second, the Bamaris;
Third, the Daminis;
Fourth, the Naruis;
Fifth, the Rekis;
Sixth, the Ismailzais.

The area controlled by the Kurd tribe was roughly centered at Khash, and includes a radius of about 100km in all directions. The kurds dominated Sarhad by organizing other groups under them in a complex regional system. Their sources of power derived from conquest of agricultural centers with assistance of other Baloch groups such as Daminis and Bamaris (grandpa referred to them as Bambaris), marital alliances with other dominant groups, and delegated authority from the Shahs (in exchange for collecting taxes).

Grandpa's dad was from the Sohrabzai section of the Yar Ahmadzai section of the Bamari tribe, and mom from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Grandma was mostly from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Their grandparents moved to Quetta in the late 1800s, and they were born in DG Khan and later moved to Lahore in the 1940s.

My dad's ancestry is from N Iraq.

khanabadoshi
08-01-2015, 05:23 PM
Did'nt notice your question as I was in between flights in the airport. It is a little bit of a long story, but here it is in a nutshell. I picked it up growing up in Lahore from my mom, maternal grandparents, and friends.

My maternal grandparents trace their ancestry to Sarhadi Kurds from the area of Washt, now known as Khash Iran. For those not familiar with the Sarhad region, it roughly encompases the corrider from Khash to Zahidan and over to the Pakistan border, roughly latitude 27.5-30, and longitude 60-62. Their ancestors immigrated there from Iraq/Iran border area, and consisted of Zangana kurd tribe (Iraq/Iran), and Yelhani kurd tribe (Iran) during Shah Abbas era (late 1500s).

There are 6 main tribes in Sarhad, with each having sections, and sub-sections. According to accepted tradition, the 6 principal tribes mentioned arrived in Sarhad in the following order:

First, the Kurds;
Second, the Bamaris;
Third, the Daminis;
Fourth, the Naruis;
Fifth, the Rekis;
Sixth, the Ismailzais.

The area controlled by the Kurd tribe was roughly centered at Khash, and includes a radius of about 100km in all directions. The kurds dominated Sarhad by organizing other groups under them in a complex regional system. Their sources of power derived from conquest of agricultural centers with assistance of other Baloch groups such as Daminis and Bamaris (grandpa referred to them as Bambaris), marital alliances with other dominant groups, and delegated authority from the Shahs (in exchange for collecting taxes).

Grandpa's dad was from the Sohrabzai section of the Yar Ahmadzai section of the Bamari tribe, and mom from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Grandma was mostly from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Their grandparents moved to Quetta in the late 1800s, and they were born in DG Khan and later moved to Lahore in the 1940s.

My dad's ancestry is from N Iraq.


That was extremely fascinating! I always wondered why there is a patch of Kurds near Zahedan, when all the other Kurds are on the Western side! Now I know. DG Khan and Muzaffargarh are stone throws away and in the 40s not very many people lived there. I'll have to ask my some elders if they ever knew of "koi Kurdi wala" hahaha. You never know! For some reason a lot of people find their way to DG Khan or Multan when moving from the West or from the Arab lands.

BTW.. do you still have family in Lahore... maybe a cousin who studied at NCA and is an excellent artist? I met someone who bears a striking resemblance to you and spoke what I was told was Dari with his parents, but I never heard it for myself. Maybe it was Kurdish. He also understood Saraiki... so. My gears are turning. I'll have to go stalk him on FB later.

EDIT: Also I have to ask from the Baloch side of your family, is the prefix Ghulam (I noticed the tribe use the name) used often in older names? Or the suffix Yaar or Daad? And do the females have masculine names which become feminized by adding a prefix or a suffix to them to make them feminine, like "Jannat" or "May"? I ask because this was the case in my family and it is pretty peculiar naming.

khanabadoshi
08-01-2015, 05:34 PM
....

no point *poof* :)

Administrator
08-01-2015, 05:39 PM
[ADMIN] We have a lowbrow (apparently Kashmiri) troll from Germany hounding this thread (asghar = "Kharzai"). Someone needs to find a hobby/life.

We ask our users to ignore and immediately report any new registrations commenting in this thread or elsewhere with negative language towards either Pashtuns or Afghans.

Otherwise, let's allow the very interesting discussions between our astute South Asian members to continue. Thanks in advance.

MfA
08-01-2015, 05:54 PM
Did'nt notice your question as I was in between flights in the airport. It is a little bit of a long story, but here it is in a nutshell. I picked it up growing up in Lahore from my mom, maternal grandparents, and friends.

My maternal grandparents trace their ancestry to Sarhadi Kurds from the area of Washt, now known as Khash Iran. For those not familiar with the Sarhad region, it roughly encompases the corrider from Khash to Zahidan and over to the Pakistan border, roughly latitude 27.5-30, and longitude 60-62. Their ancestors immigrated there from Iraq/Iran border area, and consisted of Zangana kurd tribe (Iraq/Iran), and Yelhani kurd tribe (Iran) during Shah Abbas era (late 1500s).

There are 6 main tribes in Sarhad, with each having sections, and sub-sections. According to accepted tradition, the 6 principal tribes mentioned arrived in Sarhad in the following order:

First, the Kurds;
Second, the Bamaris;
Third, the Daminis;
Fourth, the Naruis;
Fifth, the Rekis;
Sixth, the Ismailzais.

The area controlled by the Kurd tribe was roughly centered at Khash, and includes a radius of about 100km in all directions. The kurds dominated Sarhad by organizing other groups under them in a complex regional system. Their sources of power derived from conquest of agricultural centers with assistance of other Baloch groups such as Daminis and Bamaris (grandpa referred to them as Bambaris), marital alliances with other dominant groups, and delegated authority from the Shahs (in exchange for collecting taxes).

Grandpa's dad was from the Sohrabzai section of the Yar Ahmadzai section of the Bamari tribe, and mom from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Grandma was mostly from the Ghulam Shahzai section of the Kurd tribe. Their grandparents moved to Quetta in the late 1800s, and they were born in DG Khan and later moved to Lahore in the 1940s.

My dad's ancestry is from N Iraq.

Well that explains your odd admixture values compared to rest of the Kurds. You are basically half Baloch-like (your maternal side lives in Pakistan for 200 years) despite having kept Kurdish identity till this day, your maternal side's left Kurdistan almost 500 years ago. You were saying both your parents were from KRG, I've always thought they were recent immigrants to Pakistan.

khanabadoshi
08-01-2015, 06:00 PM
...

Well in Pakistan we do like to marry our cousins... so if that tradition is all his family acquired from the region, it's possible to remain relatively "pure" after all this time.

200 years is a long time though, and some dude had to say no to marrying his cousin at least once. LOL.

khanabadoshi
08-01-2015, 10:30 PM
The one who speaks later is more understandable. :)

On topic: i can understand, speak and write Hindi/urdu, majority of dialects of Punjabi (gurmukhi script), English . Can speak almost fluent haryanvi and can somewhat understand pahari (himachal).

So I have to ask, my only experience with Haryanvi is in Multan where a lot of the bazaar dudes speak it. To me it's like a informal/lazier? Urdu mixed with a Punjabi twang? I guess. I guess it sounded more like a Bollywood minor character actor speaking that slang kinda Hindi with Punjabi tonality? But maybe what I thought was Haryanvi wasn't? I just assumed they were speaking Haryanvi.

Kurd
08-01-2015, 11:13 PM
That was extremely fascinating! I always wondered why there is a patch of Kurds near Zahedan, when all the other Kurds are on the Western side! Now I know. DG Khan and Muzaffargarh are stone throws away and in the 40s not very many people lived there. I'll have to ask my some elders if they ever knew of "koi Kurdi wala" hahaha. You never know! For some reason a lot of people find their way to DG Khan or Multan when moving from the West or from the Arab lands.

BTW.. do you still have family in Lahore... maybe a cousin who studied at NCA and is an excellent artist? I met someone who bears a striking resemblance to you and spoke what I was told was Dari with his parents, but I never heard it for myself. Maybe it was Kurdish. He also understood Saraiki... so. My gears are turning. I'll have to go stalk him on FB later.

EDIT: Also I have to ask from the Baloch side of your family, is the prefix Ghulam (I noticed the tribe use the name) used often in older names? Or the suffix Yaar or Daad? And do the females have masculine names which become feminized by adding a prefix or a suffix to them to make them feminine, like "Jannat" or "May"? I ask because this was the case in my family and it is pretty peculiar naming.

Unde naa han Karim Khan Kurd. Zmindar han. Zaal da naa hai Naaz Bibi. A couple of relatives still in Lahore. Hmm....interesting coincidence with the person at NCA. We left when I was in high school.

Ghulam was used in older names. The suffix daad is still used but mostly in eastern baloch, like Karamdaad, Rahimdaad, ..... Our family mostly uses the suffix khan. Our family used the suffix bibi for females, but nowadays its use is much more rare. Some other suffixes for females are:

Naaz - Mahnaaz, Shahnaaz,.....
Khatoon - Taajkhaatoon, Mehrkhaatoon

Mohammad- Jaanmohammad, Pirmohammad, ..... (male suffix)
Mohammad - Mohammad Gul, Mohammad Amin....(male prefix)
Ullah- Habibullah, Rehmatullah,....

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 01:54 AM
Unde naa han Karim Khan Kurd. Zmindar han. Zaal da naa hai Naaz Bibi. A couple of relatives still in Lahore. Hmm....interesting coincidence with the person at NCA. We left when I was in high school.

Ghulam was used in older names. The suffix daad is still used but mostly in eastern baloch, like Karamdaad, Rahimdaad, ..... Our family mostly uses the suffix khan. Our family used the suffix bibi for females, but nowadays its use is much more rare. Some other suffixes for females are:

Naaz - Mahnaaz, Shahnaaz,.....
Khatoon - Taajkhaatoon, Mehrkhaatoon

Mohammad- Jaanmohammad, Pirmohammad, ..... (male suffix)
Mohammad - Mohammad Gul, Mohammad Amin....(male prefix)
Ullah- Habibullah, Rehmatullah,....

Wal thisakgty asan waderein hikduja nal waqafh'n ya thy'n. Asaku-n vhi bah'uon coouw ty jah-h'n. Jhyla DG Khan-'is Kurd biradari thy'n ohi brohi-ich gal karsi'm ty ko?

We have also have a lot of Bibis, every name plus Bibi. Muhammad/all his nicknames + Yaar, Ahmed Yaar, Khuda Yaar, Ghulam Fatima, Ghulam Jannat. Every name is "friend of" or "slave of" In one generations we have Rahmat Bibi, Rahmat Illahi, Rahmat Ellahi, Mai Tajji -- all women. Mehr-un-Nisa is used a lot too. One of the oldest names is Galan - for men. I guess it's like Gul. So confusing. We never used daad though. Though many other people in the area do.

Kurd
08-02-2015, 02:30 AM
Wal thisakgty asan waderein hikduja nal waqafh'n ya thy'n. Asaku-n vhi bah'uon coouw ty jah-h'n. Jhyla DG Khan-'is Kurd biradari thy'n ohi brohi-ich gal karsi'm ty ko?

We have also have a lot of Bibis, every name plus Bibi. Muhammad/all his nicknames + Yaar, Ahmed Yaar, Khuda Yaar, Ghulam Fatima, Ghulam Jannat. Every name is "friend of" or "slave of" In one generations we have Rahmat Bibi, Rahmat Illahi, Rahmat Ellahi, Mai Tajji -- all women. Mehr-un-Nisa is used a lot too. One of the oldest names is Galan - for men. I guess it's like Gul. So confusing. We never used daad though. Though many other people in the area do.

Bilkul thi sakde par dahde saal thi gaye h'n nane ko saraiki waseb chhore. Nana nani doohein intiqal kar gye h'n. Brohi ate balochi unko awndi hayi, par meinkun te nahi awndi. Kere paase te h'n tuhadi jaah?

Rukha
08-02-2015, 06:21 AM
I am fluent in English and Farsi (Kabuli dialect). I can read and type in Farsi but my handwriting is an abomination. Don't have much trouble understanding other dialects and communicating with Tajiks from Tajikistan or Iranians.

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 07:08 AM
I am fluent in English and Farsi (Kabuli dialect). I can read and type in Farsi but my handwriting is an abomination. Don't have much trouble understanding other dialects and communicating with Tajiks from Tajikistan or Iranians.

Writing is so difficult! I can't even read any handwriting unless it's amazing. Thank goodness for the fonts on computers.... but they are such small font sizes... so tiny... it is so hard to read. Do you have any understanding of the Cyrillic (I think that is what they use) that Tajiks use to write? Pashto in Afghanistan is usually written in the Naskh form while Farsi and Urdu is usually written in the Nasta'liq -- what form do Dari/Farsi speakers in Afghanistan prefer? How many dialects of Farsi are spoken in Afghanistan? Are there any that are very different, so much so that you have difficulty understanding?

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 09:11 AM
Bilkul thi sakde par dahde saal thi gaye h'n nane ko saraiki waseb chhore. Nana nani doohein intiqal kar gye h'n. Brohi ate balochi unko awndi hayi, par meinkun te nahi awndi. Kere paase te h'n tuhadi jaah?

Maydha pyo'u ty waldeyn tah mah ty waalid halaak thighy'n. Bah'oun sukkhein rishtaydaaran amreeka vanj'm, horr kujj roh ya rohi waseb ich tiqhh'm, tah biya lahore ya islamabad gharr banai'is. Apat taik'un kiivhen dass'n jah ty nakhsha? Coo'h ty 'zmina Muzaffargarh shehr ty nasdeeq'n. Agar tussan'ku shehri ilahka ty nere basti'on ty kujj ma'loomiyat th'n, wal, jah basti dastiwala ty nal h'n.

Naqsha-e-Dunya ku dhekh's; tussan'ku darya-e-Chenab tah darya-e-Sindh ty darmyaan ich hikk sahara milsi. Ehhi'n jah ty naa ha'y "Thal" -- Waseeb ich "Rohi" ahksi'n. A'ys dasht ty janoobi khumbh ty sajjhe-ala morr ty satt'h, tussan'kun sadd'ey khandaani shughal tah rozgari nazar ahs'yn. Darya-e-Sindh tah DG Khan ty utli jah toun, Koh-e-Sulaimaan mils'n; a'ys jah-ku "Roh'" akhs'yn. Jhelay ilakhein pahaar'on ty satt'h-n, leykin dasht ya rohi ty uncchai-ich barabar thy'n, unnahku-n "Damaan" ahks'yn.

Sai'n, hikk lafaz hay, "thuraab", 'Arabi ty ich... innak-un tarjama kari's, wal trah nukhta'n-kun dafa kar-ghin'ys -- watt taik'un sadd'ah ismi grahami mils'yn.

You are really making me think about Saraiki. I don't think I've spoken anything this long in my life, much less type it out. If I showed this to my Father he will probably die of laughter. Haha! I am now so confused about certain words... I have this ancient book on Multani and one on Balochi, both written in 1918 I think... and to this day the only way to learn either language.

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 06:19 PM
@ paulgill did you understand? I have a feeling you are very fluent in Punjabi and many dialects so I am very curious to see if you understand how we speak. If it isn't too much trouble, I posted 2 videos before in Saraiki, do you mind listening to them and telling me how much you understand or don't?

Rukha
08-02-2015, 06:42 PM
Writing is so difficult! I can't even read any handwriting unless it's amazing. Thank goodness for the fonts on computers.... but they are such small font sizes... so tiny... it is so hard to read. Do you have any understanding of the Cyrillic (I think that is what they use) that Tajiks use to write? Pashto in Afghanistan is usually written in the Naskh form while Farsi and Urdu is usually written in the Nasta'liq -- what form do Dari/Farsi speakers in Afghanistan prefer? How many dialects of Farsi are spoken in Afghanistan? Are there any that are very different, so much so that you have difficulty understanding?

Not sure about other Afghans but I prefer naskh for now..haven’t practiced nast’aliq at all. I have no understanding of the Cyrillic script. Tajiks were forced to switch to it during the Soviet period. Tajikistan’s government has been considering returning to the Perso-Arabic script and introducing books in it at the elementary school level for a while now but the matter remains up in the air. Their official news agency recently launched a page entirely in the Perso-Arabic script so they may be heading in that direction.

This is an informative article (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kaboli-colloquial-persian) on Kabuli Persian and its relation to other dialects spoken in Afghanistan and neighboring countries. I would agree that most Afghan dialects are closer to the Persian spoken in Central Asia in terms of pronunciation and syntax..I’ve spoken Farsi with Bukharian Jews from Uzbekistan and a Pamiri friend from Tajikistan and found their dialect to be closer to my own. Other Afghans I know also feel more “at home” conversing in Farsi with our northern neighbors.

I haven’t really been exposed to the Hazaragi dialect which has more Turco-Mongolian influence so I suppose I may have difficulty understanding it. Afghans less proficient in Farsi living in the west tend to have trouble understanding Heratis and Iranians. Occasionally lyrics in “mahali” songs from Herat, Panjsher, etc. befuddle me. I recently discovered a list of colloquialisms prevalent in the Panjshiri dialect which was helpful.

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 07:41 PM
Not sure about other Afghans but I prefer naskh for now..haven’t practiced nast’aliq at all. I have no understanding of the Cyrillic script. Tajiks were forced to switch to it during the Soviet period. Tajikistan’s government has been considering returning to the Perso-Arabic script and introducing books in it at the elementary school level for a while now but the matter remains up in the air. Their official news agency recently launched a page entirely in the Perso-Arabic script so they may be heading in that direction.

This is an informative article (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kaboli-colloquial-persian) on Kabuli Persian and its relation to other dialects spoken in Afghanistan and neighboring countries. I would agree that most Afghan dialects are closer to the Persian spoken in Central Asia in terms of pronunciation and syntax..I’ve spoken Farsi with Bukharian Jews from Uzbekistan and a Pamiri friend from Tajikistan and found their dialect to be closer to my own. Other Afghans I know also feel more “at home” conversing in Farsi with our northern neighbors.

I haven’t really been exposed to the Hazaragi dialect which has more Turco-Mongolian influence so I suppose I may have difficulty understanding it. Afghans less proficient in Farsi living in the west tend to have trouble understanding Heratis and Iranians. Occassionally lyrics in “mahali” songs from Herat, Panjsher, etc. befuddle me. I recently discovered a list of colloquialisms prevalent in the Panjshiri dialect which was helpful.

Is Herat mostly a Farsiwan or Pashtun city? The only people I know from Herat are pashtun; they are of the Noor family but I am not sure what their exact tribe is. Only their father and mother can speak Farsi even though the older siblings grew up there. I have never met a Pashtun from Kabul except ...*poof*... The only other Afghans I know are *poof*, who are Pashtun Sunni from Father's side and Farsiwan Shi'a from Mother's side; a rare mix. I learned a lot from all of the siblings. The other Afghans I met in America, were a few other Kabul Farsiwans from Kabul and a Pomiri family. The Pomiri brothers were very young when they came to America and don't know much about their homeland. They related way more with the Pakistani kids than the other Afghan or Irani kids in school, pretty unusual -- that's how we became friends -- I imagine that their parents had to have spent a significant amount of time there before moving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, if I recall Panjshiri is spoken slightly north of Ghazni? The Tajiks I know do speak Tajiki much better than Russian, contrary to other Central Asian countries that were under Soviet rule; however, all of them had trouble understanding Afghans or Iranis easily -- they put a lot of effort to learn the other dialects and be a part of the Iranic diaspora. I find it pretty admirable.

I think a lot of people who grew up in the West (I don't know if you did) find Naksh much easier to read, because we are taught how to read the Qur'an by Arabs who teach us in Naksh. I don't know if this is the same case for you. I find Nata'liq very difficult to read and write, but if you force yourself to try, it does get more familiar.

Do you speak Pashtu as well? I notice you identify as both, do you understand both languages, but only speak Farsi well? Do you have any familiarity with Uzbeki/Turkmeni/Uyghuri or Balochi/Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi? Of neighboring languages what seems most "foreign" and what seems most "close"?

pegasus
08-02-2015, 08:13 PM
Herat is dominated by Tajiks , I would say its the most Persianized of Afghan cities and thats owing to its close proximity to Iran, Mashad and Herat are like sister cities almost . Their dialect also seems to share features which you see in Northern Iranian dialects (mainly Tehrani) but at the same time it also has features of Afghan Dari.

Rukha
08-02-2015, 08:41 PM
---

It is mostly Farsiwan but has a sizeable Pashtun population as well. There hasn't been a census in Afghanistan so some dispute the exact numbers. Panjsher does not border Ghazni..the Panjshiri dialect is closest to the Persian spoken in neighboring provinces like Kapisa, Badakhshan, Parwan, and Takhar. My mother is Pashtun and my father is Tajik (Panjshiri). I identify with both sides.

Of neighboring languages I guess Urdu seems closest due to the overlap in vocabulary. Unfortunately I don't speak Pashto and can only understand it a little since growing up my parents spoke Farsi at home. Both of them are fluent in Pashto as well though and I'd like to learn it eventually. I had some Afghan Uzbek acquaintances who spoke Uzbek which has many Persian loanwords as well.

I was born in Kabul but grew up in the west and only learned the script about 5 years ago. Some of the poetry books my parents own are in nast'aliq which annoys me. Thankfully sites like Ganjoor exist so I can put off learning it for now. :biggrin1:

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 08:56 PM
It is mostly Farsiwan but has a sizeable Pashtun population as well. There hasn't been a census in Afghanistan so some dispute the exact numbers. Panjsher does not border Ghazni..the Panjshiri dialect is closest to the Persian spoken in neighboring provinces like Kapisa, Badakhshan, Parwan, and Takhar. My mother is Pashtun and my father is Tajik (Panjshiri). I identify with both sides.

EDIT: I should add, all the elders of that side of my family call themselves "Uzbuk" of "Ruus". Meaning they grew up with the notion that Uzbekistan IS Russia, and Uzbeks were an ethnic group a part of it.

Of neighboring languages I guess Urdu seems closest due to the overlap in vocabulary. Unfortunately I don't speak Pashto and can only understand it a little since growing up my parents spoke Farsi at home. Both of them are fluent in Pashto as well though and I'd like to learn it eventually. I had some Afghan Uzbek acquaintances who spoke Uzbek which has many Persian loanwords as well.

I was born in Kabul but grew up in the west and only learned the script about 5 years ago. Some of the poetry books my parents own are in nast'aliq which annoys me. Thankfully sites like Ganjoor exist so I can put off learning it for now. :biggrin1:

I find your background very interesting and am so curious! My grandmother is Uzbek and speaks the farsi variant of Tashkent, however, many people of that side of my family disagree on what the "proper" dialect is. I have a pure Uzbek uncle who married my blood-related half-Uzbek/half-Chitrali aunt; he said that "I had to teach her the proper way to speak Tashkenti Farsi -- they (my mother's family) speak like the Afghans!". Before he said this, I was always of belief that all Farsi beyond Iran was similar... however, this isn't the case apparently!

ViktorL1
08-02-2015, 09:14 PM
Not sure about other Afghans but I prefer naskh for now..haven’t practiced nast’aliq at all. I have no understanding of the Cyrillic script. Tajiks were forced to switch to it during the Soviet period. Tajikistan’s government has been considering returning to the Perso-Arabic script and introducing books in it at the elementary school level for a while now but the matter remains up in the air. Their official news agency recently launched a page entirely in the Perso-Arabic script so they may be heading in that direction.

This is an informative article (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kaboli-colloquial-persian) on Kabuli Persian and its relation to other dialects spoken in Afghanistan and neighboring countries. I would agree that most Afghan dialects are closer to the Persian spoken in Central Asia in terms of pronunciation and syntax..I’ve spoken Farsi with Bukharian Jews from Uzbekistan and a Pamiri friend from Tajikistan and found their dialect to be closer to my own. Other Afghans I know also feel more “at home” conversing in Farsi with our northern neighbors.

I haven’t really been exposed to the Hazaragi dialect which has more Turco-Mongolian influence so I suppose I may have difficulty understanding it. Afghans less proficient in Farsi living in the west tend to have trouble understanding Heratis and Iranians. Occasionally lyrics in “mahali” songs from Herat, Panjsher, etc. befuddle me. I recently discovered a list of colloquialisms prevalent in the Panjshiri dialect which was helpful.

Cyrillic isn't so hard to learn. If you have familiarity with the Latin alphabet, many of the letters are roughly the same, but the sounds are different. Tajik Cyrillic is a bit different from Russian Cyrillic. I can't read Perso-Arabic, but I'd like to learn, of course.

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 09:30 PM
Herat is dominated by Tajiks , I would say its the most Persianized of Afghan cities and thats owing to its close proximity to Iran, Mashad and Herat are like sister cities almost . Their dialect also seems to share features which you see in Northern Iranian dialects (mainly Tehrani) but at the same time it also has features of Afghan Dari.

Are you from Mashhad or Herat? I am intrigued by other opinions or observations you can add!

surbakhunWeesste
08-02-2015, 11:41 PM
Herat is dominated by Tajiks , I would say its the most Persianized of Afghan cities and thats owing to its close proximity to Iran, Mashad and Herat are like sister cities almost . Their dialect also seems to share features which you see in Northern Iranian dialects (mainly Tehrani) but at the same time it also has features of Afghan Dari.

Its dominated by Farsiwans i.e shia Tajiks to be specific (perhaps likely similar to present day Iranians genetically). Regarding the herati dialect this is a good example, if anything similar it would be Eastern and Southern Irani dialect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GANrjzRA43w&t=36m35s @36.40

Kabuli dari is old style poetic type is standard Afghan dari. Then there is Hazaragi dialect poken in central Afghanistan as well as Badakshan area, there is Uzbak dari and so on. Its the phrases, expression, slangs, syntax, loan words, pronunciation that makes these dialects stand out. A close family member made me aware of a new farsi in Kabul must have to to with people moving in an out from different places.

Hazaragi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU-3OjfaueM

Uzbaki farsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4O0w6AjRgA

Tajik farsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqKMrQFpVDc

Kabuli farsi has Qataghani beat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtfN5qY22Pc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EkQMjaD8Ts


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdV8ho1lnMY

Iranian farsi song written by an Afghan composer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUor8bNvAfg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3pweGXtlnY

Southern Iranian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpqhUhTu0g


I wonder if people can tell any difference.

pegasus
08-02-2015, 11:52 PM
Yes I know it would be close to Larestani , Larestani speakers often get confused for Afghans in Iran because of that. I was speaking wrt to how the Herati dialect has typical Iranian features (read: Northern) but maintains the conservative constructions you see in Dari.
Heratis based off my interaction are indistinguishable from Iranian Khorasanis.

It would be nice to see admixture results from that region.

khanabadoshi
08-02-2015, 11:58 PM
I....

I am curious as to why both of you described Kabuli Farsi as poetic; as I understand it, Dari/Afghan Farsi is actually proper Farsi and is the language of the courts, hence the name Dari -- while Farsi in Iran is the modernization/divergent form -- analogous to UK English and American English. Is this a wrong comparison/understanding? I do know a big difference is the use of older verbs such as gupidan in Dari as well as older standards of pronunciation; ie. milk/lion are sound the same in Irani Farsi and different in Dari (sheer/shayr) or other words like zor/zowr (pronunciations that Urdu/Hindi retain) So is the poetry the "standard", or is there another reference?

pegasus
08-02-2015, 11:59 PM
Are you from Mashhad or Herat? I am intrigued by other opinions or observations you can add!

Nope but I know people from Herat. I knew an Iranian girl from Mashad who was studying her masters in Engineering here but she moved.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 12:07 AM
I wonder if people can tell any difference.

I am not THAT familiar with Farsi, but I think every single accent pronounces alif/ahh and wau (uu/oo) differently based on what I heard.

pegasus
08-03-2015, 12:11 AM
American English is diverse. I would liken Afghan Dari to Queen's English and Tehrani Farsi to Southern US English. Its flamboyant and drawn out and thick.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 12:13 AM
American English is diverse. I would liken Afghan Dari to Queen's English and Tehrani Farsi to Southern US English. Its flamboyant and drawn out and thick.

In your personal opinion -- which variant of Farsi is the most widely understood? Or considered proper? On the flip-side, which variant allows you to understand the most dialects?

EDIT: Also a question I always wanted to ask... Tehran is pretty much in Mazandareni region, so are most of the people who live there of this background, speaking Farsi as a 2nd language?

surbakhunWeesste
08-03-2015, 12:38 AM
I am curious as to why both of you described Kabuli Farsi as poetic; as I understand it, Dari/Afghan Farsi is actually proper Farsi and is the language of the courts, hence the name Dari -- while Farsi in Iran is the modernization/divergent form -- analogous to UK English and American English. Is this a wrong comparison/understanding? I do know a big difference is the use of older verbs such as gupidan in Dari as well as older standards of pronunciation; ie. milk/lion are sound the same in Irani Farsi and different in Dari (sheer/shayr) or other words like zor/zowr (pronunciations that Urdu/Hindi retain) So is the poetry the "standard", or is there another reference?

As per my knowledge, its because of poets like Rumi, Hafez, Sanaaee Ansaari... the way they wrote and also how people spoke in a similar manner during that period which is still on a continuum in regions of Afghanistan, hence Kabuli dari is considered a prestigious vernacular. Iranian farsi is as unique. Its the use of Phrases, idioms, proverbs, slangs, expressions, to an extent lexical semantics that makes the difference. Its a formal dialect.

Coldmountains
08-03-2015, 05:24 AM
Its dominated by Farsiwans i.e shia Tajiks to be specific (perhaps likely similar to present day Iranians genetically). Regarding the herati dialect this is a good example, if anything similar it would be Eastern and Southern Irani dialect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GANrjzRA43w&t=36m35s @36.40

Kabuli dari is old style poetic type is standard Afghan dari. Then there is Hazaragi dialect poken in central Afghanistan as well as Badakshan area, there is Uzbak dari and so on. Its the phrases, expression, slangs, syntax, loan words, pronunciation that makes these dialects stand out. A close family member made me aware of a new farsi in Kabul must have to to with people moving in an out from different places.

Hazaragi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU-3OjfaueM

Uzbaki farsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4O0w6AjRgA

Tajik farsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqKMrQFpVDc

Kabuli farsi has Qataghani beat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtfN5qY22Pc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EkQMjaD8Ts


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdV8ho1lnMY

Iranian farsi song written by an Afghan composer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUor8bNvAfg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3pweGXtlnY

Southern Iranian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpqhUhTu0g


I wonder if people can tell any difference.

Here in Germany many if not most Afghan immigrants seem to be from Herat and they seem to be in many ways closer to Iranians than to other Afghans from my personal experience. Unfortunately there are no genetic studies about western Afghanistan but Shia Farsiwan there would be really close to east Iranians and their look is among Afghans the most "western" shifted. I somewhat can distinguish most (but of course there is still a remarkable overlap) Afghans from Iranians based on their look but Herati and also Qizilbash are in most cases almost indistinguishable for me from Iranians. I even know some who dislike to be called "Afghan" but most Herati Tajiks seem to be quite friendly to Pashtuns. Interesting people and in most cases very friendly.

Kabuli Dari sounds really cool for me and love it sounds also

surbakhunWeesste
08-03-2015, 07:55 AM
Here in Germany many if not most Afghan immigrants seem to be from Herat and they seem to be in many ways closer to Iranians than to other Afghans from my personal experience. Unfortunately there are no genetic studies about western Afghanistan but Shia Farsiwan there would be really close to east Iranians and their look is among Afghans the most "western" shifted. I somewhat can distinguish most (but of course there is still a remarkable overlap) Afghans from Iranians based on their look but Herati and also Qizilbash are in most cases almost indistinguishable for me from Iranians. I even know some who dislike to be called "Afghan" but most Herati Tajiks seem to be quite friendly to Pashtuns. Interesting people and in most cases very friendly.

Kabuli Dari sounds really cool for me and love it sounds also

Germany has all kinds of Afghans, it probably depends on cities. Herat has a history of ethnic tension, diaspora population is tolerant most of the time since they are aware of atrocities upon them or family members,hence they are likely to show empathy.

redifflal
08-03-2015, 01:43 PM
I read and write in Bengali, and speak it in the formalized "Nadia standard" which apparently comes from a village named Shantipur in Nadia district of West Bengal, India. This is the standard form of Bengali spoken on official announcements/newscasts/etc on all mass media forms in both India and Bangladesh. When I moved to America, I made Bangladeshi friends for the first time, and they were all "impressed" at how "good" my Bengali is. It was surprising to me, because now I believe most Bengali-speaking people do make a switch between how they speak at home and how they are "supposed to speak", while for me that contradiction doesn't exist. Now my roots are in Kolkata which has its own Bengali dialect (pronounces "sh" as a hard "sss" like old-time residents of "Shyambajaar" neighborhood in north Kolkata call it as "Syambajar"), but nobody in our family ever even lapses into such dialect, even if they are angry. So I wonder how we got so naturalized into this "Nadia standard". Incidentally I made a trip few years ago to the Nadia district, albeit not to the Shantipur village but to villages that were on the eastern end near the Bangladesh border, and the people there definitely did not speak in the "Nadia standard" but actually similar to my Bangladeshi friends in the US. Here I was thinking I was going to finally find a village full of farmers and herders where they speak in the formal Bengali dialect, but to no avail. Maybe I should visit that village to quench this curiosity.

My exposure in the US to my Bangladeshi friends (who hail from different districts like Dhaka, Barisal, Khulna, Rajshahi, Sylhet, Chittagong), as well as via Youtube to the different types of folk Baul music has expanded my ideas to the diversity of Bengali language and dialects. In West Bengal also, there are native Bengali dialects that are not the same as the "Nadia standard" like the one I mentioned above about Kolkata's native dialect, then there are those in Mednipur, Birbhum, Murshidabad, Rajbongshi, etc. So it isn't just Bangladeshis who do the "switch", but most Indian Bengalis as well.

A couple of winters ago I was out in Astoria, Queens, NYC with an old Pakistani friend, and we popped in to a desi all-you-can-eat type sit-down restaurant that served the area. There was a group of 4-5 young guys that sat close by us. Their phenotypes together as a group placed them more in SW Asia than in South Asia, let alone eastern South Asia. They were speaking in a harsh sounding language, and my friend got all giggly and said "Arab guys are so cute." After a while of listening to them, I realized they were speaking in Sylheti dialect of Bengali. I was like holy crap, and I told her those guys were Bengalis and she's like "seriously?"

I never prided myself in speaking "good" Bangla so naturally as my Bangladeshi friends have tried to make me feel. I think it is cool that they get to switch between a home dialect and a proper dialect, and they actually practice their proper dialect with me, go figure...Also all the good rootsy poetry and beat-banging music is made in those dialects, mine is the language of Tagore whom I find boring. I sometimes think that in the Bengali world, I'm like the suburban white guy jealously attempting to identify with the dialects of people that are not mine since I find mine boring and plain.


Other than Bengali, my other strongest language is English. My pronunciation is probably somewhere between an upper-class English-medium Indian accent, and borders on a Caribbean accent as well. My informal Hindi/Urdu is very weak nowadays, it used to be better when I lived in India due to Kolkata being fairly cosmopolitan and having plenty of north Indians. But I listen to a lot of qawwali and kirtans, I surprise myself with the quality of formal vocabulary in both Hindi and Urdu that I am familiar with. And then I understand some Punjabi as well due to the relation with Hindustani, as well as the same genres of music that help me familiarize with the lyrics. Plus my wife is Punjabi although they oscillate between Hindi and Punjabi in the home as well. I am pretty good at Spanish as well, I believe there are some deep linguistic reasons why South Asians in general can be so good at Spanish.

redifflal
08-03-2015, 01:56 PM
It is nice to see so many Pashto speakers of varied regions and nations on this forum and this thread discussing the various nuances of things. I wish I could find similar online discussion for Bengali. All I find online are people who are so politically riled up that everything they see is a very reductionist point of view.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 04:18 PM
Kabuli Dari sounds really cool for me and love it sounds also

I love the sound of Kabuli Farsi as well, to me it is the standard of Farsi overall; ie. if you speak it, you can probably read more sophisticated literature in Farsi and understand. Interestingly, I thought the Uzbek Farsi would sound more familiar to me, but it didn't. Of all the examples, the Tajik version sounded very much how my family speaks + the faces in the crowd looked just like that side of my family. I believe that Tashkent was once apart of Tajikistan, so that maybe why?

The Southern Irani I believe = Bandari. This type of Farsi is spoken in the Makran region of Balochistan and Irani Baluchistan va Sistan as well. The music is very gulf Arab and the pronunciations strongly Arabized.

DMXX
08-03-2015, 04:25 PM
The Southern Irani I believe = Bandari. This type of Farsi is spoken in the Makran region of Balochistan and Irani Baluchistan va Sistan as well. The music is very gulf Arab and the pronunciations strongly Arabized.

This is correct. Some Arabic loanwords seldom found in the rest of the Persian dialects spoken in Iran also make their presence here.

For those interested and are familiar with/speak Iranian Persian, check out songs by the Iranian artist Iman Siapooshan (example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNCAewrjflo)). I know he's a "southerner"/junubi but unsure which province he hails from. I frequent find myself not understanding some of the expressions or words used (could be wrong, but gather a good portion of them are Arabic loans I'm unfamiliar with). The music is also exactly as khana jan describes.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 04:26 PM
It is nice to see so many Pashto speakers of varied regions and nations on this forum and this thread discussing the various nuances of things. I wish I could find similar online discussion for Bengali. All I find online are people who are so politically riled up that everything they see is a very reductionist point of view.

My mom can speak Bengali! (Well I don't think anymore... just understand) LOL. She grew up on an air force base in Peshawar, most of the pilots at that time were Bengali so she learned Bengali in school. I'll have to ask her what "kind" she could understand.

Just like most of the people in the US from Pakistan are from specific areas of Punjab or Karachi or most Iranis are from Tehran; I think most Bangladeshis are from Dhaka, so in all these cases you don't get much exposure to other dialects, languages, regions. I do know of a Bengali family from the extreme North of the country, I believe it is a mountainous area. Their Bengali was "different" and they looked different, reddish curly hair and full beard growth patterns. I forgot their family name, I'll have to meet up with them next time I go home. The only other kind of Bengali dialects I am familiar with is West Bengali which is more Sanskritized, and the Sylheti which I think is most unique? These are all off the top of my head, I am not sure if it's correct or not.

I can only distinguish Bengali by sound; I've heard a very soft version with lot's of "sh" sounds, it sounded a lot like the Dardic languages to me, and then a more sharp accent that I think the majority speaks like. Maybe you know what I am talking about.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 04:42 PM
Iranian artist Iman Siapooshan (example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNCAewrjflo)).

That song was great! I love the haban/ney anban/jibra -- the bagpipe thing! (I am not sure which is which, but they all sound amazing).

Btw: We call ourselves Janubi as well, all the people who live in the southern part of Punjab, and we call the Northerners, "Shumaili". Generally, we are also referred to as Dehati, ie. village/country/rural-folk. The frontier areas are called "Sarhadd" and the people "Sarhaddi"; this is like the Pashtun areas or the tribal Baloch areas -- all by the Sulaiman mountains. I think Iran and Afghanistan also use similar terms for populations in their countries.

In my local language we classify places in the lingustic regions as Roh, Rohi, Damaan. Roh = Mountains and the people that live there. Rohi = Thal desert and the people that live there. Damaan = Foothills and plains of the mountains and the people that live there. Collectively, all 3 are called "Waseb" -- and we consider this the name of our land.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 04:51 PM
I read and write in Bengali, and speak it in the formalized "Nadia standard"....

I read this post after I replied to your 2nd post, I didn't even see it! Crazy how some of the random things I noticed are things you typed. I am mind-boggled hahaha!

DMXX
08-03-2015, 05:08 PM
That song was great! I love the haban/ney anban/jibra -- the bagpipe thing! (I am not sure which is which, but they all sound amazing).

Btw: We call ourselves Janubi as well, all the people who live in the southern part of Punjab, and we call the Northerners, "Shumaili". Generally, we are also referred to as Dehati, ie. village/country/rural-folk. The frontier areas are called "Sarhadd" and the people "Sarhaddi"; ...

Similar conventions in Iran; shomali and junubi are, I believe, Arabic loanwords. Dahati is originally a Persian word I've been told by more informed Iranians.

Arabic (via Islam) and Persian (via either Persian-derived or Persianate dynasties over the centuries) seems to have contributed towards slight enhancement of culturo-linguistic unification across most of West, Central and South Asia.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 05:11 PM
I would like to encourage any Nepalese, Bhutani, Southern Indian, Sri Lankan, Mauritius, West Indies folks to post as well. I have exposure to most, but very little to the Dravidian languages beyond Brahui. While people often tend to class them as a whole, I believe they are actually very different from each other and knowing one does not help you understand the next language at all in the slightest? I would love to get insight of these languages as well!

Like I said in my original post; I am kind of obsessed. Hahaha!

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 05:26 PM
Similar conventions in Iran; shomali and junubi are, I believe, Arabic loanwords. Dahati is originally a Persian word I've been told by more informed Iranians.

Arabic (via Islam) and Persian (via either Persian-derived or Persianate dynasties over the centuries) seems to have contributed towards slight enhancement of culturo-linguistic unification across most of West, Central and South Asia.

Persian nouns in general are basis for a great percentage of vocabulary for almost every language in the region. What varies is when language #2 got that word from Persian (Modern/Middle/Old); what the pronunciation was in Persian then, and how it was used at that time. The languages that take loanwords tend to keep those words as they were originally used, and sometimes use them for something else. Like the word bozurgh, it means "grand", "big" but in Urdu it is used more for "elder", "old". You can use the word for to mean "big" in Urdu, but it's like definition #4 in the dictionary. So just like "pedestrian" means "normal, average, boring" -- no one in English really uses that definition of the word in daily speech. It seems each region took Persian words of broad meaning, and then applied a specific meanings that became unique to that region. I've read a decent amount about Balochi and have a 2000 page textbook, (impossible to find)... a lot of Balochi is just Old Persian/Zend. All the Gw sounds are what would be a B in Modern Farsi, etc. It's seems to me they are grammatically identical, and all one needs to learn is the whats letters replaced what, and you will understand both languages.

surbakhunWeesste
08-03-2015, 07:38 PM
It is nice to see so many Pashto speakers of varied regions and nations on this forum and this thread discussing the various nuances of things. I wish I could find similar online discussion for Bengali. All I find online are people who are so politically riled up that everything they see is a very reductionist point of view.

We probably have but they don't post perhaps. Most of the participants in the discussions were enthusiasts.

You should create a bengali thread where interested users will definitely chime in. I grew up hearing Bengali(Bangladeshi) in stores and streets. Most of the time, I can pretty much make out the conversation. Hope you won't take it as a sham, I can act a gibberish hence dubious bengali impression as well. :) Ami kama matro bujathe.

DMXX
08-03-2015, 07:52 PM
Like the word bozurgh, it means "grand", "big" but in Urdu it is used more for "elder", "old". You can use the word for to mean "big" in Urdu, but it's like definition #4 in the dictionary. So just like "pedestrian" means "normal, average, boring" -- no one in English really uses that definition of the word in daily speech. It seems each region took Persian words of broad meaning, and then applied a specific meanings that became unique to that region.

Bozorg is also an added stem to father/mother to denote a grandparent in Persian as well (pedar/baba-bozorg = grandfather, madar/mama-bozorg = grandmother), so this isn't a South Asian-specific re-conceptualisation of the term.

redifflal
08-03-2015, 10:43 PM
My mom can speak Bengali! (Well I don't think anymore... just understand) LOL. She grew up on an air force base in Peshawar, most of the pilots at that time were Bengali so she learned Bengali in school. I'll have to ask her what "kind" she could understand.

Just like most of the people in the US from Pakistan are from specific areas of Punjab or Karachi or most Iranis are from Tehran; I think most Bangladeshis are from Dhaka, so in all these cases you don't get much exposure to other dialects, languages, regions. I do know of a Bengali family from the extreme North of the country, I believe it is a mountainous area. Their Bengali was "different" and they looked different, reddish curly hair and full beard growth patterns. I forgot their family name, I'll have to meet up with them next time I go home. The only other kind of Bengali dialects I am familiar with is West Bengali which is more Sanskritized, and the Sylheti which I think is most unique? These are all off the top of my head, I am not sure if it's correct or not.

I can only distinguish Bengali by sound; I've heard a very soft version with lot's of "sh" sounds, it sounded a lot like the Dardic languages to me, and then a more sharp accent that I think the majority speaks like. Maybe you know what I am talking about.

This post is pretty good considering you didn't read the first post LOL. The soft version with lots of "sh" sounds is probably the Nadia standard in which I speak. This is example of lyrics and music made in our standard dialect, Rabindra Sangeet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebzinV0xTX4

This is Baul music from my guru Armaan Sainji of Nadia district. This is a close approximation of the dialect I speak at its village grassroots level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBgAuVS2WdU

This is Sylheti dialect, very different and hard for people from both Kolkata and Dhaka to understand. I have heard this song several times over the last 8 years when I first discovered it, and only like in the last couple of months I have figured out 90% of the lyrics LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kmBwFb0D7o

Sylheti is probably the only Bengali dialect that's "hard" enough to give easily to rapping. I remember trying to write in the Bengali that I know as a teenager, and it just wouldn't lend itself. I can write poetry to lend itself to other genres of music, but it can't be rapped. Usually whatever non-American cultures try a hand at rapping generally suck with a large degree of wannabe-ness and lack of knowledge of hip hop as a social movement. I don't think any rap can ever be made in the Bengali I speak, but Sylheti, yes, they flow pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akOaD94DUDc

redifflal
08-03-2015, 10:49 PM
We probably have but they don't post perhaps. Most of the participants in the discussions were enthusiasts.

You should create a bengali thread where interested users will definitely chime in. I grew up hearing Bengali(Bangladeshi) in stores and streets. Most of the time, I can pretty much make out the conversation. Hope you won't take it as a sham, I can act a gibberish hence dubious bengali impression as well. :) Ami kama matro bujathe.

I think you were trying to say "ami kom bujhi" or "ami kom bujhte pari".

I can try. I have posted in the past but I don't think the posters are here on this forum. Also I think at the Non-Resident Indian/Non-Resident Bangladeshi level, the level of interest in each other is even there. The middle class urban elites we hail from back home pretty much have divorced and made peace with each other to the point of not caring. I'm a rare case in that I care.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 11:38 PM
...

Thanks for the awesome videos! The first video to me sounded like what "most" Bengali speakers sound like (if they were in a romantic mood and singing hahah), at least where I grew up.

The Shylheti folk song sounded just like the language I described as soft; but ironically, you described it as hard. Hahaha. I guess it's relative. The song was sung very similarly to the cadence and style of people from Chitral or Gilgit. Obviously, this is just from my background, I am not so familiar with either language. The Rap song sounded very different in terms of pronounciation and I didn't see similarity with the version I heard.

The 2nd Nadia standard folk song video did sound way more colloquial. I feel like a lot of people speak this way, if I had to guess. The instrument was great, what is it called? It's like a mix between a tambura and a rubab in sound. Looks like a mini-Banjo.

redifflal
08-04-2015, 09:26 PM
Thanks for the awesome videos! The first video to me sounded like what "most" Bengali speakers sound like (if they were in a romantic mood and singing hahah), at least where I grew up.

The Shylheti folk song sounded just like the language I described as soft; but ironically, you described it as hard. Hahaha. I guess it's relative. The song was sung very similarly to the cadence and style of people from Chitral or Gilgit. Obviously, this is just from my background, I am not so familiar with either language. The Rap song sounded very different in terms of pronounciation and I didn't see similarity with the version I heard.



The 2nd Nadia standard folk song video did sound way more colloquial. I feel like a lot of people speak this way, if I had to guess. The instrument was great, what is it called? It's like a mix between a tambura and a rubab in sound. Looks like a mini-Banjo.

I probably should have posted a video of Sylhetis speaking instead of a folk song, because you can tell there is a different rhyme pattern to general speech of Sylhetis which gives easier to rapping than my official standard dialect. Like I said earlier, that time in New York, both my Pakistani friend and I were taken by surprise once I realized the group of guys were Bengalis and not Arabs like Egyptians or Moroccans.

The 2nd video that is the Nadia standard as spoken in the villages where it originates is with an instrument we call dotora, and is related to rabab/sarod/etc. There are 3 strings made of bamboo and the bottom one is tin. It sounds colloquial but that is because that is the home region where it's from. I don't know who or how that particular dialect became the official standard of pronunciation. I'm guessing like for other languages too, it is slightly arbitrary and a chance thing. At the turn of the 19th century, the Bengali language produced its greatest writer...Rabindranath Tagore, who I think grew up in that region or was somehow connected to there via landholdings or something. Tagore's work influenced the direction of Bengali bourgeoisie culture in a way that hadn't happened before in a unified manner. So that is how the Nadia standard came to become official, and I'm guessing my family completely eliminated whatever regional dialect we spoke in before that (probably north Calcutta with the s's instead of sh) as it became a class differentiator. I guess Bangladeshis are far removed enough from the origin of the Nadia standard that even in their bourgeoisie they maintain speaking the regional dialect at home at least, but they will adhere to the standard in official newscasts, TV, radio, political rallies, etc. I think some Islamists try to fan anti-Hindu sentiments by deliberately using the native East Bengali dialects as a cultural differentiator from what they see as a Hindu West Bengali dialect. Like I said earlier, those are reductionist arguments, and there are plenty of non-standard dialects in the Hindu West Bengal side as well if you go to the village level, and all those people are also switching between one they speak at home and one they speak outside. Also some Bengali Hindu cultural purists in Kolkata also deride Bangladeshis using the fact that their dialect has more Farsi words than the Nadia standard (we will say "thik kotha" while they will say "hoq kotha" for "that's correct"), forgetting the same thing, that West Bengal also has plenty of dialect diversity in continuum with those spoken in Bangladesh.

Ultimately, the partition in 1947 was almost arbitrary and unprecedented. My grandfather tells me that the Nadia district was actually Muslim majority and Khulna was Hindu majority, but giving Khulna to India would have robbed East Pakistan of a major amount of coastline access, so they gave Khulna to Pakistan and Nadia to India. So imagine if Nadia was part of Bangladesh, now maybe we Indian Bengalis would feel a bit out of place talking in that dialect. Same thing happened with Murshidabad which is also in West Bengal and always had Muslim majority and was the last place where the Nawab of Bengal Siraj ud-Daulah ruled from before 1757. Murshidabad went to India to preserve some land access to the northeastern states like Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, etc, while Chittagong which had a Muslim plurality but not majority went to Pakistan.

All sorts of weird things happened including the partition, and unfortunately like I said, the people who are fluent in the Bengali language usually will have political blinders when it comes to discussing about these linguistic nuances. I have Bangladeshi friends in real life but I don't broach these topics (which are harmless in my head) because I'm afraid I might say something that offends their views or they say something that offends mine.

khanabadoshi
08-05-2015, 12:35 AM
I probably should have posted a video of Sylhetis speaking instead of a folk song... both my Pakistani friend and I were taken by surprise once I realized the group of guys were Bengalis and not Arabs like Egyptians or Moroccans.


Yes, I think everyone should actually post spoken conversation videos as opposed to songs. I mean you can't hear the difference in most English music despite the wide range of accents. I don't think singing is an accurate representation of the nuances between languages or dialects. It is however, an excellent example of cultural affinities. (ie. what type of instruments used, different genre types).

The perception of what everyone is "supposed" to look like is so strong in South Asia, that even members of the same ethnicity are often left in disbelief! When we don't even know the diversity of our "own group"... how can you expect an understanding of others? /end philosophy lesson.



The 2nd video that is the Nadia standard as spoken in the villages where it originates is with an instrument we call dotora, and is related to rabab/sarod/etc. There are 3 strings made of bamboo and the bottom one is tin. It sounds colloquial but that is because that is the home region where it's from.


I think it sounds awesome, and doesn't seem that hard to learn to play, I might have to e-bay this hahah.



Rabindranath Tagore, who I think grew up in that region or was somehow connected to there via landholdings or something. Tagore's work influenced the direction of Bengali bourgeoisie culture in a way that hadn't happened before in a unified manner. So that is how the Nadia standard came to become official.


I am definitely aware of Tagore and his extreme cultural eminence in Bengali. He is like the Shakespeare of Bengali and analogous to Mohammad Iqbal or Mirza Ghalib in the context of Urdu. I don't think it would be understatement to say, Tagore is probably more greatly revered in the context of Bengali than either Shakespeare or Ghalib are to their respective languages.

I also believe he is the composer of India's national anthem and many patriotic songs and poems. It stands to reason that also his standard of Hindustani in his literary works had a major influence on emergence of standard Hindi in India.



Bangladeshis are far removed enough from the origin of the Nadia standard that even in their bourgeoisie they maintain speaking the regional dialect at home at least, but they will adhere to the standard in official newscasts, TV, radio, political rallies, etc...... I think some Islamists try to fan anti-Hindu sentiments by deliberately using the native East Bengali dialects as a cultural differentiators from what they see as a Hindu West Bengali dialect. Like I said earlier, those are reductionist arguments, and there are plenty of non-standard dialects in the Hindu West Bengal side as well.... Also some Bengali Hindu cultural purists in Kolkata also deride Bangladeshis using the fact that their dialect has more Farsi words than the Nadia standard,... forgetting the same thing, that West Bengal also has plenty of dialect diversity in continuum with those spoken in Bangladesh.


I have met West Bengali Hindus and Muslims, and Bangladeshis. There is most certainly an affinity of "upper-class" or Brahmin/Kashatriya West Bengalis to speak the "pure" Bengali of Tagore, and they are the only group that I met to really really really stress that they speak differently at any opportunity it may come up.(This is from my personal/limited experience in the US, so it can't be generalized or seen as uniform). Someone once went so far as to say, "From neither my mother's line nor my father's line (gotras), has anyone come from, gone to, or have had any relationship with East Bengal in the last 700 years". I was like whoa, quite a grand statement, especially when the topic was about food. LOL.

I replied, that Punjabis have distinctions in religion and country as well -- everyone still calls both Punjabis? The same applies for Pashtun, Baloch, Sindhis, Koreans, Azeris, Kurds, etc etc etc. But I found that certain people to be very annoyed if I referred to the people of West/East Bengal collectively as "Bengalis". So much so that, I now consciously try remember to refer to West Bengal as Bengalis and East as Bangladeshis to avoid any unnecessary tempers. Beyond the upper-class Kolkata-folks, in Bangladesh, society seems to be extremely polarized and this finds its way into language.

The secular upper-class very much embraces Tagore and West Bengal culture as a whole, while maintaining distinctions, they definitely seem to venerate it more than any of the Islamic influences of the past. On the flip-side you have the middle/lower class religious crowd that finds pride in the Islamic influences of the region and identify more so with it. I would assume this is because in a more "classical/pure" society of the upper-class' vision, these groups would be seen as insignificant and not really "Bengali". The views of both these groups were very different (on many issues...that we won't get into), and it makes sense that it manifests itself in language. In Bangladesh particularly, the issue of language is extremely relevant to their national identity and a source of immense sentiment -- it is easy to understand why one would have strong opinions.


Ultimately, the partition in 1947 was almost arbitrary and unprecedented.

The case of Bengali-speaking regions during partition is extremely interesting. If I recall correctly, I believe Kolkata was supposed to go to East Pakistan? Obviously, as a major port city and educational center this was hotly contested. Through numerous negotiations and settlements, land swaps were made, in which many Hindu populated areas ended up in East Pakistan and many Muslim populated areas ended up in India -- all for the sake of Kolkata.


I have Bangladeshi friends in real life but I don't broach these topics (which are harmless in my head) because I'm afraid I might say something that offends their views or they say something that offends mine.

LOL... I feel exactly the same. You have no idea how nervous I feel right now as I am about to click "Submit". It is so hard to discuss ANYTHING in the context of South/Central Asia sometimes. In fact, probably all of Asia.

These are just my personal observations; I could be totally wrong for all I know.


Edit: I talk too much.

redifflal
08-06-2015, 02:07 PM
Yes, I think everyone should actually post spoken conversation videos as opposed to songs. I mean you can't hear the difference in most English music despite the wide range of accents. I don't think singing is an accurate representation of the nuances between languages or dialects. It is however, an excellent example of cultural affinities. (ie. what type of instruments used, different genre types).

The perception of what everyone is "supposed" to look like is so strong in South Asia, that even members of the same ethnicity are often left in disbelief! When we don't even know the diversity of our "own group"... how can you expect an understanding of others? /end philosophy lesson.

Agree 100%




I think it sounds awesome, and doesn't seem that hard to learn to play, I might have to e-bay this hahah.

Be careful. I should have bought mine while I was visiting India last, but chose otherwise at the time. I looked online, and there were websites selling them for 700 USD plus, and then I saw it on eBay for 50 bucks. I hurriedly bought it. Unfortunately this was not meant to be a musical instrument, but more like a decoration. In the beginning I noticed that I could only play 1 note from each string depending on how I tuned the pegs, I was like wtf, how do I produce all the notes that these Bauls are playing. Then I realized this dotora had no "bridge". How do you sell a string instrument with no bridge? I'm still mad over that LOL. I guess I can fix that part myself and place a wood block under the strings. Also keep in mind if your strings break, there is nowhere to go try fixing it.



I am definitely aware of Tagore and his extreme cultural eminence in Bengali. He is like the Shakespeare of Bengali and analogous to Mohammad Iqbal or Mirza Ghalib in the context of Urdu. I don't think it would be understatement to say, Tagore is probably more greatly revered in the context of Bengali than either Shakespeare or Ghalib are to their respective languages.

I also believe he is the composer of India's national anthem and many patriotic songs and poems. It stands to reason that also his standard of Hindustani in his literary works had a major influence on emergence of standard Hindi in India.

Yes, Tagore is a huge icon in the Bengali cultural sphere. Although I think the more I delve into the literary scene, the more people I find that are a bit allergic to the size of his influence. I also recently found out that the Sri Lankan national anthem also is a translation of Tagore's work.



I have met West Bengali Hindus and Muslims, and Bangladeshis. There is most certainly an affinity of "upper-class" or Brahmin/Kashatriya West Bengalis to speak the "pure" Bengali of Tagore, and they are the only group that I met to really really really stress that they speak differently at any opportunity it may come up.(This is from my personal/limited experience in the US, so it can't be generalized or seen as uniform). Someone once went so far as to say, "From neither my mother's line nor my father's line (gotras), has anyone come from, gone to, or have had any relationship with East Bengal in the last 700 years". I was like whoa, quite a grand statement, especially when the topic was about food. LOL.

When people make statements like that, it should be cue for looking into reasons behind that. I have noticed the same, and I would say the first and most direct reason for such a superiority complex is the friction in Kolkata society that became a big factor in the 1950s-60s-70s was the Ghoti-Bangal divide, that is between the established Brahmin-Baidya-Kayastha bhadralok (upper-class) society of Kolkata and the incoming hordes of East Bengali Hindu refugees, most of lower-caste. Many were probably already poor, or had become completely so in the wake of partition. I have heard statements like "Why the heck did you not just convert to Islam and stayed the fvck over there" referring to the region of Bangladesh. Most of the prejudices in the subcontinent can be reduced to people fighting over a piece of a pie that is shrinking overall. But I think statements like that have deeper origins in our subconscious. Are East Bengali Hindus being blamed for losing the demographic and social position to Islam, and in turn, for losing their country? In the run-up to independence/partition, Bengalis as a whole were already being sidelined as a non-credible force in the Indian National Congress party as the rest of the Indians were getting whiff of the fact that Bengalis were Muslim-majority, not Hindu-majority, hence the Bengali Hindu BBK bhadralok society that had spurred the Indian national movement on secular-yet-Hindu-inspired background were floating on thin credit. You can see that in how Netaji Bose was chased out of Congress by Gandhi. So in a way, you can see rest of India treats Bengalis as a "problem-child" also because Bengalis as a whole had lost the Hindu-majority to a Muslim-majority.
This stuff might have origins in untouchability. Traditionally if one stepped into the shadow of a Muslim, they became untouchable and would have to do major penances to be accepted back in the fold. From a West Bengali upper-caste perspective, I'd say the East Bengali Hindu refugee was submerged in a Muslim majority, so by default they become impure. I remember growing up seeing differences in tradition in the way we and they would get married, and it would be explained by same aforementioned reductionist arguments "Oh, those Bangals are half-Muslim anyway". Funnily enough, these East Bengali Hindus are also very strict and strong in their following of Hinduism, maybe to differentiate themselves from the Muslim majority. This religious adherence is also explained away by us as something "Islamical" on the part of the East Bengalis, since Muslims follow their religion so closely, while for Hindus comfortable in our position in a Hindu world, it is fashionable to proudly boast of how we have zero knowledge of Vedas/Upanishads/Yoga/etc, how all that is mumbo-jumbo superstition, etc. I remember once telling an East Bengali Hindu how I don't even think twice about eating beef. The guy looked at me painstakingly, and whispered to me "well, do it if you want to, but don't let a Muslim see you doing it cause that will dishonor us in front of them." I looked at him with a look of bewilderment and incredulousness. I thought maybe he would tell me about why it is bad for you to eat it, why it is bad for your karma...some sort of religious/moral argument. So in this case, I too reinforced my prejudice regarding East Bengali Hindus as "Islamical" in the way they show adherence to religion without logic (holy crap how many people am I offending with that statement LOL). Even in my personal case, I have all my ancestry rooted in a small town on an opposite bank of Kolkata. My maternal grandmother's mother's side were Sylhetis but they had moved en masse to Lucknow back in the 1800s for some reason, so I really have no known connections in erstwhile Bangladesh. It is a huge statement considering how much family we keep track of in India, but unfortunately I have no Sylheti connections.



I replied, that Punjabis have distinctions in religion and country as well -- everyone still calls both Punjabis? The same applies for Pashtun, Baloch, Sindhis, Koreans, Azeris, Kurds, etc etc etc. But I found that certain people to be very annoyed if I referred to the people of West/East Bengal collectively as "Bengalis". So much so that, I now consciously try remember to refer to West Bengal as Bengalis and East as Bangladeshis to avoid any unnecessary tempers.

I think Bengalis are passive-aggressive in nature, while you people in the northwest are straightforward and cut-throat. You guys realized you had a problem in 1947, you butchered the crap out of each other, completely swapped populations, and now you squeeze each other's cheeks in brotherhood. Bengalis had the same problem, and one can say we started being problematic about it before Punjabis, Hindustanis, etc, but we never swapped our populations. Now we keep living in integrated spaces still, but mentally we keep closing our walls to each other because we are all very insecure in where we stand.



Beyond the upper-class Kolkata-folks, in Bangladesh, society seems to be extremely polarized and this finds its way into language.

The secular upper-class very much embraces Tagore and West Bengal culture as a whole, while maintaining distinctions, they definitely seem to venerate it more than any of the Islamic influences of the past. On the flip-side you have the middle/lower class religious crowd that finds pride in the Islamic influences of the region and identify more so with it. I would assume this is because in a more "classical/pure" society of the upper-class' vision, these groups would be seen as insignificant and not really "Bengali". The views of both these groups were very different (on many issues...that we won't get into), and it makes sense that it manifests itself in language. In Bangladesh particularly, the issue of language is extremely relevant to their national identity and a source of immense sentiment -- it is easy to understand why one would have strong opinions.

IMHO, Bangladeshis will end up being the bearers of Bengali language. Now whether that will be in the Tagore form or the regional dialect form or a neo-islamized version, or maybe all of them, remains to be seen. At the end of the day, they have the country formed on language. If Bangla doesn't flourish there, then it probably won't anywhere.



The case of Bengali-speaking regions during partition is extremely interesting. If I recall correctly, I believe Kolkata was supposed to go to East Pakistan? Obviously, as a major port city and educational center this was hotly contested. Through numerous negotiations and settlements, land swaps were made, in which many Hindu populated areas ended up in East Pakistan and many Muslim populated areas ended up in India -- all for the sake of Kolkata.

I recently wrote a huge write up on this on quora. My grandfather is getting old nowadays, and he is vividly recollecting about different things from his teenage years (he was 17 during partition), so I am getting very interested in finding the recorded history beyond his word-of-mouth (which is extremely valuable). Indians as a whole had no idea of what a nation-state meant, that was an entirely European development. So I doubt the people that went around feeling motivated enough to kill each other in the name of dividing the country had any idea what a separate country meant. Bengali Muslims for example, didn't know they were signing up for a Pakistan where they would be told to choose between language and religion. On a large-scale, neither the Bengali Hindus nor Bengali Muslims wanted a partition of their province. Most Bengali Muslims either wanted the entire Bengal to be its own country, and the few that were clamoring for Pakistan probably had no idea about "Urdu-only" and "Bengali is not an Islamic language" diatribe. Most Bengali Hindus were on the other hand, living in kumbayah mode. We after all, had had the most exposure to Western civilization in the subcontinent, and had pretty much formulated the concept of Indian nationalism in the modern sense. We were both Bengali nationalists, and Indian nationalists, in the same breath. So we had no idea of the grievances of the Bengali Muslims, and wanted 1 India. Some of us that began to understand the depth of the grievances of the Bengali Muslims were actually open to the idea of entire Bengal becoming its own country. My grandfather says many Bengali Hindus were very enthusiastic about India-Pakistan-Bengal, 3 countries coming out of British India. Then in 1946 Jinnah called for Direct Action Day in Kolkata, which sort of shell-shocked Bengali Hindus. We became extremely insecure about our position, and thought what is the difference between being a minority in Pakistan or a minority in Bengal, because we can be butchered ruthlessly any moment. So we hurriedly did the unthinkable and voted for partitioning of Bengal, attempting to salvage some of Bengal for India although most West Bengali people will shudder to think of the Indian Bengal as the "Hindu Bengal" although we will easily concede that Bangladesh/East-Bengal is "Muslim Bengal" due to what I mentioned earlier about how our identity in being Bengali Hindus is itself tied to how "weak" we are in our adherence to the religion.
I think he sometimes looks back at that and thinks Bengali Hindus screwed up. He has seen through his time the degradation that has happened of Kolkata in the Indian context. Without the hinterland of East Bengal's countryside, Kolkata has reduced to a pauper city, surpassed by Bangalore, Hyderabad, etc. It always was a cosmopolitan city but Bengali Hindus used to dominate. Now Marwaris, Gujaratis, Biharis, etc dominate Kolkata's socio-economic scene, meanwhile the Bengali Muslims are still sitting intact as a demographic powerhouse in West Bengal (30%, population was never swapped) ready to riot and cause mayhem and bring about pre-partition-like scenarios any day over little things. For example when Taslima Nasreen the intellectual author from Bangladesh came to Kolkata to find refuge, and the Muslims in Kolkata amassed in a tremendous show of power, many Bengali Hindus found it reminiscent of the speeches delivered in Kolkata on Direct Action Day. Her departure from Kolkata to London after that has been taken as another blow to a group of people with ever-degrading political status. He probably thinks we would have been better as part of a larger Bangladesh than as part of India. We would have kept Kolkata as a premier global city, Bengali Hindus would have kept their status overall, and being a 40% minority, we probably would not have gotten butchered like how the 1-off cases happened in Kolkata on D.A.D. and in Noakhali. Part of the reason why reverse killings never happened (and led to a feeling of emasculation among the Bengali Hindus) was because Gandhi showed up and lied down in front of Muslim houses and told Hindu rioters they would have to kill him first...Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus don't deal with such complexes because they dished out in equal measure whatever was dished to them. And in a united Bengal, Bengali Hindus would have been supported in alliance by the upwardly mobile Bengali Muslim upper-middle classes, the ones in Bangladesh now that look up to Tagore so much (although I do have my doubts on whether such a class would have existed among the Bengali Muslims had they been in the same country with us, or have they been able to grow and flourish in our absence). In the social setting, one easy way to see that Bengalis have culturally been beaten up in Kolkata is the simple amount of audacity Hindi-speakers have in Kolkata. I remember seeing graffiti on walls of our buildings "Sab Bangali log chor hain", meaning all Bengalis are cheaters/liars/etc. In our schools when we used to play, there would invariably be two groups, one of all Bengali Hindus, and the other would consist of everyone else: Marwaris, Muslims across the board, Jains, Anglo-Indians, Chinese, Christians across the board, etc. Yet when we started getting older, we noticed how thanks to Bollywood and other cultural influences, Bengali had become the language of "Bangali babu" while Hindustani (Hindi/Urdu) was the language to talk to girls. Thankfully I left around that time and my life evolved with its own different social peer pressure settings in which my Bengali identity could evolve independently, but when I reconnect with my peers back in India, I notice how they needed to equate their success with the opposite gender with how much they could fake a Hindi-speaking identity. I know it is lame as hell to bring that up, but these are all things that go into evolving socio-cultural identities.




LOL... I feel exactly the same. You have no idea how nervous I feel right now as I am about to click "Submit". It is so hard to discuss ANYTHING in the context of South/Central Asia sometimes. In fact, probably all of Asia.

These are just my personal observations; I could be totally wrong for all I know.


Edit: I talk too much.

LOL, word of advice, participate in these types of masala discussion if you will, but try to stay anonymous as much as you can. I would never dream of discussing these things even with family, let alone Facebook. Maybe with friends in 1 on 1 setting, but then you can't get as deep as here, with multiple reading resources.

khanabadoshi
08-07-2015, 05:42 PM
@redifflal, I owe you a reply... I just got caught up in discussing milk and lactose ...it's a long story. Anyways, I'll try to reply soon!

purohit
10-02-2015, 12:54 PM
fluent in hindi and maarwari. and i can understand 95% of urdu and english. lil bit sanscrit.

Greenstone
12-23-2015, 11:58 PM
Fluent in English and Standard Iranian Persian (Tehran dialect). Strong passing knowledge of Turkish (Iranian Azeri dialect particularly, and Anatolian). Elementary/intermediate French and Arabic.

Ashina
12-24-2015, 02:02 AM
*edit

lol totally misunderstood the thread. Sorry.

Greenstone
12-24-2015, 02:56 AM
I also understand Afghan/Tajik/Central Asian dialects of Persian perfectly fine. Yes, the pronunciation of certain words (and certain vowels in particular), differ between each dialect of Persian.

I believe the Persian spoken in most of Iran also has a strong Oghuz Turkic influence (family terms, for example, Tehranis call their younger sisters baji which also exists in Turkish, and terms such as dadash/dash (from Kardash)). There's more French influence as well, and Iranians probably have a stronger Arabic influence as well (considering the fact that Iran's longest border is with Iraq but Tajikistan/Afghanistan/Uzbekistan are nowhere near Arab speakers...)

In regards to Turkic, I believe the Turkish/Azeri my family speaks is closest to the Turkmen dialects of Syria and Iraq, and very similar to dialects spoken in Central/Eastern/Southern Turkey. Perhaps it's most similar to rural, purer Turkmen dialects- although my family (and myself, although my Turkish is sort of shoddy) find Turkmens in Khorasan and Turkmenistan quite difficult to understand. The language is similar, of course, but Turkmen spoken there has a lisp and other features that make it hard to decipher. My family does go to Turkey on trips however, and they generally have no problems speaking with Turks. I have some family from Azerbaijan (Republic) and there are no problems in communication there as well.

DMXX
12-24-2015, 08:27 AM
That's interesting. My father had some issues communicating with Turks in Istanbul. The Azeri side of our family's from West Azerbaijan province (Azarbaijane-Gharbi).

Yes, having understanding of both Persian and Turkic languages reveals the potential scope for the Oghuz contribution into Persian (dadash/kardash, meyve, yavash, kuchik etc.).

Currently, I am fluent only in English. Semi-fluent in Modern Persian since a child. Over six years ago, I self-taught up to intermediate level Turkish and German, plus basic Hindi and Russian (alongside some programming languages, C++ and Java to be precise). Also learned French for seven years in school. I've forgotten most of these, as there was no functional use in maintaining familiarity (everyone around me speaks English and my vocation has absolutely no use for these). "use it or lose it" is a very real phenomenon, I've come to learn. I'm basically a more senile linguistic version of Greenstone for the time being. :D

I'm currently picking German back up and learning Azeri Turkish whenever time permits, though it isn't a priority. I do regret not focusing on these (and Modern Persian) when I had bountiful free time as a teenager. Probably would've retained things much better focusing on three languages (two of which are "ancestral") rather than... Six.

[Edit]: An interesting tidbit regarding the Central Asian Persians and Arabic influence... There actually are some Arab communities in Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian_Arabic). Whether or not the degree of loanword insertion among them differs from Iranian Persian is a great discussion point, to which I have no familiarity towards.

Znertu
12-24-2015, 12:04 PM
Dutch is my native language. I'd say my English is very good for a non-native.
I know a decent amount of French and German as well, reading both goes alright, but I'd have to really polish them up before I'd be content with them.
I'm currently learning Kurdish, still got lots to learn.

If/When I get all five to a good level, I'd like to learn Turkish and Persian as well. My aim is too keep learning languages, but my tone might change when I'm older and busier. Russian is one of those which is said to be really hard, but which I'd be really willing to study somewhere down the line.

Greenstone
12-24-2015, 02:38 PM
Quite impressive!

I do remember one instance when my grandfather had a language barrier in Istanbul- he was speaking to a gardener/handyman, and was using his phone to call somebody, but he kept using the word "zang" rather than whatever it is in Anatolian Turkish. I'm sure Azeris from the Republic use the word "zang" as well. But overall I don't know if our dialect is that much closer to Azeri than it is to other Turkic dialects, because ultimately, my mother's tribe came to Iran from the Eastern/Central region of Anatolia in the 1700s, and Tabrizis city dwellers (who generally aren't tribal, correct me if I'm wrong) definitely have a unique accent in comparison to us (k always becomes ch).

Stephen1986
12-24-2015, 03:01 PM
I speak British English fluently and natively. Whilst I would love to have a second language, I don't currently have one.

As for other languages, I tend to be better at understanding written language compared to the spoken tongue, this may be due to being partially deaf. I understand quite a bit of written French and (Bokmål) Norwegian.

tchekitchek
12-24-2015, 05:35 PM
Native: French
Fluently but accented: English.
I can easily understand: Spanish

to a lesser extent: Dutch, German and Japanese

Knowing French and Spanish makes it easy to catch Italian and Portuguese but I don't know if that counts.

bol_nat
12-28-2015, 05:06 AM
For those interested, the best example of "pure" Saraiki I can find:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INl8Yg91zQQ

It's a comical story about an old man and a young man who is selling a goat. It is a very accurate example of daily conversational speech. Even though many of you won't understand it, a lot of people do enjoy just hearing it being spoken.

I am curious as to how much a Punjabi or Urdu speaker might understand.

I could only get 30-40%. Seraki sound like sindhi.

This is how people in Gujrat/Gujranwala people speak punjabi. mind the language :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7D6aB6yIKY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5cW3Eq4Tw

khanabadoshi
12-30-2015, 07:55 PM
@ bol_nat 2nd guy was way easier to understand totally... probably because he was wasn't cursing and yelling so much hahahaha.

Deftextra
12-31-2015, 08:42 PM
Fluent in Dutch and English. My English is a slightly accented.
My Somali is a bit fragmented. My mother and Father speak two different dialects which made it even harder for me.

Other languages which I can understand to some extend are German followed by Japanese.

Awale
12-31-2015, 10:16 PM
Conversational in Somali (used to be brilliant when I was much younger but I really let it rust over the years), fluent in English (more or less my "First Language"; one I speak best. Though I spoke Somali first but learned English quite early between 2 to 3 years age or so), can read and write Arabic and mildly grasp what people are saying.

Passa
01-01-2016, 01:07 AM
I consider myself a bilingual person. Like most people in my region, I grew up speaking both Italian and the Neapolitan variant spoken in my microgeographical area (Neapolitan is the language spoken in the Southern Italian region of Campania), though my Neapolitan is a bit less refined, for people in my native area tend to incorporate Italian words alongside Neapolitan words, and this doesn't help younger generations who will lose knowledge about original words in favor of Italian loan words.

I am fluent in English (third in my high school for this language, according to a test [the first and second in the list are there only due to a handful of points more than mine]), I can read and understand quite a few German sentences, less so Spanish and even less Russian. I can read Greek and understand a few words due to the numerous loan words into Italian.

bol_nat
01-13-2016, 04:45 AM
@ bol_nat 2nd guy was way easier to understand totally... probably because he was wasn't cursing and yelling so much hahahaha.

punjabi gujranwala. Better quality audio and clean language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KuUn33ftn4

khanabadoshi
01-13-2016, 08:38 AM
I understood it totally, especially since he spoke slowly. This kinda Punjabi I'm used to hearing in Pakistan. I suppose when my Father speaks Punjabi he speaks similar to this. If this is different than other regions of Pakistan I can't hear the difference, except he is way less nasal/tonal -- which it makes it sooooooo much easier to understand.

dp
01-13-2016, 05:23 PM
I understood it totally, especially since he spoke slowly. This kinda Punjabi I'm used to hearing in Pakistan. I suppose when my Father speaks Punjabi he speaks similar to this. If this is different than other regions of Pakistan I can't hear the difference, except he is way less nasal/tonal -- which it makes it sooooooo much easier to understand.
khana,
with so many people not realizing this was a Hindi thread I guess I'll post too :-)
native tongue American English,
studied French years ago (not-conversant now, but can get a fair idea of what's written)
a year or so again studied Angloromani (do better with the uninflected mix of English & Romani)
have tried to pick up some Hindi. (romani has many Indic roots)
eg: dena in Hindi => de+ll in Angloromani
dp :-)

dp
01-13-2016, 05:25 PM
I understood it totally, especially since he spoke slowly. This kinda Punjabi I'm used to hearing in Pakistan. I suppose when my Father speaks Punjabi he speaks similar to this. If this is different than other regions of Pakistan I can't hear the difference, except he is way less nasal/tonal -- which it makes it sooooooo much easier to understand.
khana,
with so many people not realizing this was a Hindi thread I guess I'll post too :-)
native tongue American English,
studied French years ago (not-conversant now, but can get a fair idea of what's written)
a year or so ago studied Angloromani (do better with the uninflected mix of English & Romani)
have tried to pick up some Hindi. (romani has many Indic roots)
eg: dena in Hindi => de+ll in Angloromani
dp :-)

psaglav
01-13-2016, 05:43 PM
I speak Turkish and English in equal fluency. I used to speak an OK level of Modern Greek, but it's gotten very rusty now though I understand it if others speak. I can read and translate from Latin and Ancient Greek (not that I've done much work on it for the last couple of years.) I also can read and understand basic French as my father and stepmom speak it as their common language.

I'm learning Swedish on Duolingo for fun. :) Its grammar is not too hard, although the prepositions are giving me grief lately. I'd love to learn Farsi; it's a beautiful language.

khanabadoshi
01-14-2016, 01:38 PM
khana,
with so many people not realizing this was a Hindi thread I guess I'll post too :-)
native tongue American English,
studied French years ago (not-conversant now, but can get a fair idea of what's written)
a year or so again studied Angloromani (do better with the uninflected mix of English & Romani)
have tried to pick up some Hindi. (romani has many Indic roots)
eg: dena in Hindi => de+ll in Angloromani
dp :-)

I had no idea you were actually studying Romani! I thought it was more a hobby. No wonder the hindi type words you use are somewhat different and hard for me to understand. What got you into Angloromani?



I speak Turkish and English in equal fluency. I used to speak an OK level of Modern Greek, but it's gotten very rusty now though I understand it if others speak. I can read and translate from Latin and Ancient Greek (not that I've done much work on it for the last couple of years.) I also can read and understand basic French as my father and stepmom speak it as their common language.

I'm learning Swedish on Duolingo for fun. :) Its grammar is not too hard, although the prepositions are giving me grief lately. I'd love to learn Farsi; it's a beautiful language.

We are going to need you to count it all out for us, that's quite a lot of languages! Which is your mother tongue?

parasar
01-14-2016, 04:23 PM
khana,
with so many people not realizing this was a Hindi thread I guess I'll post too :-)
native tongue American English,
studied French years ago (not-conversant now, but can get a fair idea of what's written)
a year or so ago studied Angloromani (do better with the uninflected mix of English & Romani)
have tried to pick up some Hindi. (romani has many Indic roots)
eg: dena in Hindi => de+ll in Angloromani
dp :-)

We have de-lla in our dialect.

khanabadoshi
01-14-2016, 04:26 PM
We have de-lla in our dialect.

Can you share some recordings of your dialect?

parasar
01-14-2016, 04:37 PM
I also understand Afghan/Tajik/Central Asian dialects of Persian perfectly fine. Yes, the pronunciation of certain words (and certain vowels in particular), differ between each dialect of Persian.

I believe the Persian spoken in most of Iran also has a strong Oghuz Turkic influence (family terms, for example, Tehranis call their younger sisters baji which also exists in Turkish, and terms such as dadash/dash (from Kardash)). There's more French influence as well, and Iranians probably have a stronger Arabic influence as well (considering the fact that Iran's longest border is with Iraq but Tajikistan/Afghanistan/Uzbekistan are nowhere near Arab speakers...)

...

There were Arab chieftains ruling on the Indus, especially Multan through Sindh.

Even ~800 years after the Caliphate's conquests and retreat of Syrians from the region, Arabic was one of the languages of Kabul noted by Babar. "In its valleys and plains are Turks and Mughals and Arabs ... languages are spoken in Kabul: Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Mughali, Hindi, Afghani, Pashai, Paraji, Gibri, Birki and Lamghani."

The word Tajik itself means Arab and dates to the Arab conquest of the region.

khanabadoshi
01-14-2016, 04:42 PM
There were Arab chieftains ruling on the Indus, especially Multan through Sindh.

Even ~800 years after the Caliphate's conquests and retreat of Syrians from the region, Arabic was one of the languages of Kabul noted by Babar. "In its valleys and plains are Turks and Mughals and Arabs ... languages are spoken in Kabul: Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Mughali, Hindi, Afghani, Pashai, Paraji, Gibri, Birki and Lamghani."

The word Tajik itself means Arab and dates to the Arab conquest of the region.

Yes, this is evident by the use of Thum and Wasal (ie. Basal) as opposed to Pyaz and Lasan in Sindhi and Saraiki for Onion and Garlic.

parasar
01-14-2016, 04:51 PM
Can you share some recordings of your dialect?

Starts about 1.20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAAqaSVkFLo

khanabadoshi
01-14-2016, 05:16 PM
Starts about 1.20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAAqaSVkFLo

Oooh! I've heard Bhojpuri. My roommate for a time is from Mauritius, many of the population of Mauritius still speaks Bhojpori. It's a bit hard to understand, but one gets the gist if you know Urdu. There is a lot of Sanskriti words it seems.


EDIT: I just noticed he is speaking in Mauritius! Hahaha!

psaglav
01-14-2016, 05:21 PM
We are going to need you to count it all out for us, that's quite a lot of languages! Which is your mother tongue?

Turkish.

It's not that many, I counted all of the ones I'm familiar with at varying degrees. With English I'm more or less on a native speaker level -I've spoken it since a very early age and also amongst family. Latin and Ancient Greek are just working languages, I cannot SPEAK them; I can only translate from them (and very poorly, I might add.)

parasar
01-14-2016, 06:12 PM
Oooh! I've heard Bhojpuri. My roommate for a time is from Mauritius, many of the population of Mauritius still speaks Bhojpori. It's a bit hard to understand, but one gets the gist if you know Urdu. There is a lot of Sanskriti words it seems.


EDIT: I just noticed he is speaking in Mauritius! Hahaha!

A Gujadhur by any chance? The Gujadhurs are relatives of ours. Many speak Bhojpuri, French, and English.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1cjiKF_VucYC&pg=PA68
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=28510496

dp
01-14-2016, 06:49 PM
studied was too specific of a word. Made many recordings of spoken Para-Romani, and read a lot. so falls in the hobby category, just haven't spent the money as I have on DNA, but quite a lot of time. (Man is it tedious going the voice recordings, separating into separate files, then playing over and over to make sure I understand what was said.)
It's hard to know exactly what a word is used for, ie the best word to use.
For example achha (sp?) for good in Hindi looks similar to latchi for good or tatchi for true, correct (in AR). But it looks like Shubh (auspicious) is used like for the good in good morning (in Hindi), which is why I guess I also hear AR speakers using kusto divvus, when kusto is related to expensive.
dp :-)


I had no idea you were actually studying Romani! I thought it was more a hobby. No wonder the hindi type words you use are somewhat different and hard for me to understand. What got you into Angloromani?




We are going to need you to count it all out for us, that's quite a lot of languages! Which is your mother tongue?

khanabadoshi
01-14-2016, 07:12 PM
A Gujadhur by any chance? The Gujadhurs are relatives of ours. Many speak Bhojpuri, French, and English.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1cjiKF_VucYC&pg=PA68
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=28510496

It was an Oodally.


studied was too specific of a word. Made many recordings of spoken Para-Romani, and read a lot. so falls in the hobby category, just haven't spent the money as I have on DNA, but quite a lot of time. (Man is it tedious going the voice recordings, separating into separate files, then playing over and over to make sure I understand what was said.)
It's hard to know exactly what a word is used for, ie the best word to use.
For example achha (sp?) for good in Hindi looks similar to latchi for good or tatchi for true, correct (in AR). But it looks like Shubh (auspicious) is used like for the good in good morning (in Hindi), which is why I guess I also hear AR speakers using kusto divvus, when kusto is related to expensive.
dp :-)

Subh = Morning
Acha = Good/OK
Mahnga = Expensive

But I suppose we would say Subh-e-khair for Good Morning in Urdu.

I have not heard the word Divuus, Kusto, or Latchi/Tatchi; maybe Parasar has an understanding of them?

dp
01-14-2016, 07:24 PM
It was an Oodally.



Subh = Morning
Acha = Good/OK
Mahnga = Expensive

But I suppose we would say Subh-e-khair for Good Morning in Urdu.

I have not heard the word Divuus, Kusto, or Latchi/Tatchi; maybe Parasar has an understanding of them?
those are in Angoromani.

Forgot about din for day in Hindi. The closest to AR divvus is divas in gujarati.

thanks on Subh, hard to know what means what. Need to play with online dictionaries more before I write Hindi words :-)
dp :-)

dp
01-14-2016, 07:29 PM
duplicate

parasar
01-14-2016, 08:15 PM
It was an Oodally.



Subh = Morning
Acha = Good/OK
Mahnga = Expensive

But I suppose we would say Subh-e-khair for Good Morning in Urdu.

I have not heard the word Divuus, Kusto, or Latchi/Tatchi; maybe Parasar has an understanding of them?

For subh I will have to see the context.
The Romany have imbibed some Arabic influence.
If not Arabic, it would mean auspicious.

Divvus could be day.
Kusto Divvus would then be a Persian admixed - Good Day. Persian and Armenian have influenced Romany a lot.

No idea about Latchi/Tatchi, but Tatchi appears to be used as true. If so, perhaps a form of satya-sach.

surbakhunWeesste
01-14-2016, 11:47 PM
It was an Oodally.



Subh = Morning
Acha = Good/OK
Mahnga = Expensive

But I suppose we would say Subh-e-khair for Good Morning in Urdu.

I have not heard the word Divuus, Kusto, or Latchi/Tatchi; maybe Parasar has an understanding of them?

Subh= auspicious in sanskrit
prabhat = morning is sanskrit
Subhah= morning in hindi/urdu.

Subhprabhat = Auspicious morning a morning greeting used in most indic languages

pegasus
01-15-2016, 01:49 AM
punjabi gujranwala. Better quality audio and clean language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KuUn33ftn4

Sounds softer than the Punjabi speakers I have heard in Brampton (suburb in Toronto which has tonnes of Punjabi speakers) during my Toronto visits. That style of hat is also very popular with Pashtuns. Is it of Balochi origin?

bored
01-15-2016, 02:14 AM
Sounds softer than the Punjabi speakers I have heard in Brampton (suburb in Toronto which has tonnes of Punjabi speakers) during my Toronto visits. That style of hat is also very popular with Pashtuns. Is it of Balochi origin?

You mean like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCY5O8LUfPo

If you change tone a lot, Punjabi sounds harsh. Also, some people just have a rough way of enunciating words.

pegasus
01-15-2016, 03:21 AM
You mean like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCY5O8LUfPo

If you change tone a lot, Punjabi sounds harsh. Also, some people just have a rough way of enunciating words.

YUP!! Thats the one lool. Yes it does, I cannot tell if they are arguing /swearing or not often times. I remember few years ago at a parking lot in Brampton, one middle aged Punjabi lady hit another punjabi lady's car in the same age group and what transpired after was just epic!

dp
01-15-2016, 08:20 PM
thanks. I knew I had seen Subh as auspicious somewhere. I had an extra h in it.
dp :-)

Subh= auspicious in sanskrit
prabhat = morning is sanskrit
Subhah= morning in hindi/urdu.

Subhprabhat = Auspicious morning a morning greeting used in most indic languages

parasar
01-15-2016, 08:25 PM
thanks. I knew I had seen Subh as auspicious somewhere. I had an extra h in it.
dp :-)

The Prakrit would by Subh, and in Sanskrit Shubh.

dp
01-15-2016, 08:28 PM
eg. the word for luck in European Romani comes from baxt (which I think comes from armenian). The x sounds like a k in AR.
I've read adding the ending +alo makes it mean lucky.
dp


For subh I will have to see the context.
The Romany have imbibed some Arabic influence.
If not Arabic, it would mean auspicious.

Divvus could be day.
Kusto Divvus would then be a Persian admixed - Good Day. Persian and Armenian have influenced Romany a lot.

No idea about Latchi/Tatchi, but Tatchi appears to be used as true. If so, perhaps a form of satya-sach.

psaglav
01-16-2016, 11:03 AM
eg. the word for luck in European Romani comes from baxt (which I think comes from armenian). The x sounds like a k in AR.
I've read adding the ending +alo makes it mean lucky.
dp
Baxt should be from (middle) Persian, the same word is used in Turkish for luck and the etymology dictionary gives me bhaga (Sanskrit) for the same word. Might as well be used in Armenian, of course.

evon
01-16-2016, 12:08 PM
Baxt should be from (middle) Persian, the same word is used in Turkish for luck and the etymology dictionary gives me bhaga (Sanskrit) for the same word. Might as well be used in Armenian, of course.

Probably from the same root as bag/beg/bogo etc meaning god/lord etc...It is found in Iranic, Indic, Slavic etc languages, so could be from any number of sources.. In Scando-Romani they say Bahi for luck and Penna Bahi = "to predict luck". While for god they say Devel (from sanskrit), Geddo (not sure what origin), or Adonai from Hebrew.

surbakhunWeesste
01-16-2016, 03:26 PM
Baxt should be from (middle) Persian, the same word is used in Turkish for luck and the etymology dictionary gives me bhaga (Sanskrit) for the same word. Might as well be used in Armenian, of course.

The sanskrit word is bhagya meaning luck, it is also used for 'fate/destiny' as a slang.

In Afghan Dari and Pashto you say KoshBakhti, it is used for good luck or just luck... a colloquial form.

dp
01-16-2016, 04:27 PM
Bahi doesn't surprise me. the x sound goes as K in some dialects and H in other. would the i be a genetive form?

seeing Adonai reminds me of yuzhi (sp?) derived from kosher. Another example of k (ER) => h (AR)

Glad you came into the conversation. Wish the area had a more general name like Indo-Aryan.

dp :-)

PS: your mailbox is full


Probably from the same root as bag/beg/bogo etc meaning god/lord etc...It is found in Iranic, Indic, Slavic etc languages, so could be from any number of sources.. In Scando-Romani they say Bahi for luck and Penna Bahi = "to predict luck". While for god they say Devel (from sanskrit), Geddo (not sure what origin), or Adonai from Hebrew.

evon
01-16-2016, 04:36 PM
Bahi doesn't surprise me. the x sound goes as K in some dialects and H in other. would the i be a genetive form?

seeing Adonai reminds me of yuzhi (sp?) derived from kosher. Another example of k (ER) => h (AR)

Glad you came into the conversation. Wish the area had a more general name like Indo-Aryan.

dp :-)

PS: your mailbox is full

They dont use cases in ScandoRomani, as the grammar is largely adopted from Norwegian/Swedish (it is very complicated, but to simplify you can say that we dont have cases in Norwegian languages)..But it might be derived from genitive..

Yeah, I will clean up my mailbox tomorrow or so, going offline now for a while...thanks for the heads up though...

psaglav
01-16-2016, 09:22 PM
The sanskrit word is bhagya meaning luck, it is also used for 'fate/destiny' as a slang.

In Afghan Dari and Pashto you say KoshBakhti, it is used for good luck or just luck... a colloquial form.

Khosh Bakhti sounds like Hos(h) Baht in Turkish, which, although not used together, would mean good luck too. Hosh means good, nice, pretty, etc. in Turkish but no doubt from Farsi. It's amazing how many Persian words there are in modern Turkish. Probably even more in Azerbaijani.

paulgill
01-16-2016, 09:34 PM
Khosh Bakhti sounds like Hos(h) Baht in Turkish, which, although not used together, would mean good luck too. Hosh means good, nice, pretty, etc. in Turkish but no doubt from Farsi. It's amazing how many Persian words there are in modern Turkish. Probably even more in Azerbaijani.

I think Khosh Bakhti might mean Happy Time, Khosh= Khush=happy=Good + Bakhti=wakat=time.

psaglav
01-16-2016, 09:43 PM
I think Khosh Bakhti might mean Happy Time, Khosh= Khush=happy=Good + Bakhti=wakat=time.

OK, here are two different entries from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:

BAGA: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baga-an-old-iranian-term-for-god-sometimes-designating-a-specific-god

BAKT: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bakt-fate-destiny

summary: "BAḴT (Middle and New Persian) “fate, lot,” often with the positive sense of “good luck”(ḵᵛošbaḵtī), though the related NPers. verb bāḵtan means “to lose” (as opposed to bordan “to win”) in a game or gamble. The Avestan passive past participle baxta, from Aryan bhag- “to allot”

the entry about Baga is also very, very interesting.

paulgill
01-16-2016, 10:42 PM
OK, here are two different entries from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:

BAGA: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baga-an-old-iranian-term-for-god-sometimes-designating-a-specific-god

BAKT: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bakt-fate-destiny


summary: "BAḴT (Middle and New Persian) “fate, lot,” often with the positive sense of “good luck”(ḵᵛošbaḵtī), though the related NPers. verb bāḵtan means “to lose” (as opposed to bordan “to win”) in a game or gamble. The Avestan passive past participle baxta, from Aryan bhag- “to allot”

the entry about Baga is also very, very interesting.

I am not a Linguist, nor I am a Historian and neither I ever have any inclination to become any of that. My information and understanding comes basically from my mother tongue Punjabi and the languages Hindi/Urdu generally used in Bollywood movies and songs, so I can't provide you with precise answers as an expert might.

psaglav
01-16-2016, 11:02 PM
I am not a Linguist, nor I am a Historian and neither I ever have any inclination to become any of that. My information and understanding comes basically from my mother tongue Punjabi and the languages Hindi/Urdu generally used in Bollywood movies and songs, so I can't provide you with precise answers as an expert might.

I just thought the links were really interesting. Not discounting your knowledge of your own language in any way.

evon
01-17-2016, 12:11 PM
OK, here are two different entries from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:

BAGA: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baga-an-old-iranian-term-for-god-sometimes-designating-a-specific-god

BAKT: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bakt-fate-destiny

summary: "BAḴT (Middle and New Persian) “fate, lot,” often with the positive sense of “good luck”(ḵᵛošbaḵtī), though the related NPers. verb bāḵtan means “to lose” (as opposed to bordan “to win”) in a game or gamble. The Avestan passive past participle baxta, from Aryan bhag- “to allot”

the entry about Baga is also very, very interesting.

Iranica is a good source, I have used it allot in my studies on Sogdians. As you can see the two terms are closely related, which is to be expected due to the sound and nature of them..

DMXX
01-17-2016, 06:17 PM
Khosh Bakhti sounds like Hos(h) Baht in Turkish, which, although not used together, would mean good luck too. Hosh means good, nice, pretty, etc. in Turkish but no doubt from Farsi. It's amazing how many Persian words there are in modern Turkish. Probably even more in Azerbaijani.

Yup!

As part of the language reforms spearheaded by Atatürk's (RIP) linguists, loanwords in Istanbuli Turkish beginning with "x/kh" were softened to "h". Another example you'll recognise as a Turkish speaker being "Haber" (from Arabic "xabar/khabar", "news"). Same applies to "Khosh/Xosh", which is an Iranic loanword from Persian.

Interestingly enough, a consonant word shift (k > x/kh) occurred in the Oghuz Turkic languages (please see here (http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/13_folder/13_articles/kurtulush_azeri_turkish_13.pdf)). That means the various "x/kh" sounds one often hears in Oghuz Turkic languages to the east (Anatolian or Caucasian Turkish and Azeri dialects, Turkmen) aren't derived from proto-Turkic. I've recently wondered whether that reflects some sort of Iranian influence.


I think Khosh Bakhti might mean Happy Time, Khosh= Khush=happy=Good + Bakhti=wakat=time.

"Baxt/bakht" and "vaxt/vakht/wakht" are different words in the Iranic languages (they mean the same thing in Kurdish dialects, Persian and Pashto; "luck" and "time" respectively).

As I understand it, these are originally Iranic terms (the Sanskrit equivalents being "bhagya" and "vela"). So, any derivations of either in modern Indo-Aryan languages are likely loanwords from Iranic languages (impossible to conclude the medium for "bakht" given it's the exact same word across the main Iranic languages).


OK, here are two different entries from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:

BAGA: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baga-an-old-iranian-term-for-god-sometimes-designating-a-specific-god

BAKT: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bakt-fate-destiny

summary: "BAḴT (Middle and New Persian) “fate, lot,” often with the positive sense of “good luck”(ḵᵛošbaḵtī), though the related NPers. verb bāḵtan means “to lose” (as opposed to bordan “to win”) in a game or gamble. The Avestan passive past participle baxta, from Aryan bhag- “to allot”

the entry about Baga is also very, very interesting.

^ Co-sign the conclusions above. All correct.

psaglav
01-17-2016, 06:54 PM
Yup!

As part of the language reforms spearheaded by Atatürk's (RIP) linguists, loanwords in Istanbuli Turkish beginning with "x/kh" were softened to "h". Another example you'll recognise as a Turkish speaker being "Haber" (from Arabic "xabar/khabar", "news"). Same applies to "Khosh/Xosh", which is an Iranic loanword from Persian.

Interestingly enough, a consonant word shift (k > x/kh) occurred in the Oghuz Turkic languages (please see here (http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/13_folder/13_articles/kurtulush_azeri_turkish_13.pdf)). That means the various "x/kh" sounds one often hears in Oghuz Turkic languages to the east (Anatolian or Caucasian Turkish and Azeri dialects, Turkmen) aren't derived from proto-Turkic. I've recently wondered whether that reflects some sort of Iranian influence.



That's interesting. And thanks for the link.

There are quite a number of Persian rooted words; there were a lot more, but, as you said, during the language reform, a large number of Persian and Arabic loanwords were eliminated -which is a shame, Turkish was a richer language with them, IMHO. There was also the tradition of forming combined words with one Arabic and one Persian word in Ottoman Turkish, sometimes I can't figure out if a word is Arabic or Persian and look it up in the etymology dictionary and it ends up being both. :) (couldn't think of an example off the top of my head, will write if it comes to me. But it is a common thing.)

DMXX
01-17-2016, 07:09 PM
That's interesting. And thanks for the link.


You're welcome!



There are quite a number of Persian rooted words; there were a lot more, but, as you said, during the language reform, a large number of Persian and Arabic loanwords were eliminated -which is a shame, Turkish was a richer language with them, IMHO. There was also the tradition of forming combined words with one Arabic and one Persian word in Ottoman Turkish, sometimes I can't figure out if a word is Arabic or Persian and look it up in the etymology dictionary and it ends up being both. :) (couldn't think of an example off the top of my head, will write if it comes to me. But it is a common thing.)

Wiki's done the heavy lifting for us (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_replaced_loanwords_in_Turkish) ;) Perfect examples of what you're referring to include javab (cevab in the Turkish version of the Latin alphabet, "answer/response"), faghir (faqir, "poor") ajaleh (acale, "hurry/rush") and mühim (same, "important"). Some of these words are still in use in Turkey (as you've probably encountered) and are used in Azerbaijan and Iran too (in both the Azeri dialects and Modern Persian). I've noted this before, but only a minority of the Arabic loanwords in Modern Persian are full replacements (f.ex. Arabic "esm" and "ajaleh" are used in Modern Persian, but so are the original Iranic "naam" and "tond" or "zud").

I remember reading a historical source some years ago that ascribed most of these Arab words in Istanbuli Turkish being mediated through Persian, which would explain the large overlap between them in both Turkish and Persian (alongside the confusion of the ultimate source in etymological comparisons).

Personally speaking, I'm supportive of Atatürk's reforms. Tajikistan also took on a similar campaign in the past decade or so I've read online by forming novel Dari terms to replace Arabic or Russian loans. I'd also like to see the modified Arabic script being abandoned for Persian (there isn't a rational argument in support of keeping it).

surbakhunWeesste
01-17-2016, 10:18 PM
You're welcome!



Wiki's done the heavy lifting for us (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_replaced_loanwords_in_Turkish) ;) Perfect examples of what you're referring to include javab (cevab in the Turkish version of the Latin alphabet, "answer/response"), faghir (faqir, "poor") ajaleh (acale, "hurry/rush") and mühim (same, "important"). Some of these words are still in use in Turkey (as you've probably encountered) and are used in Azerbaijan and Iran too (in both the Azeri dialects and Modern Persian). I've noted this before, but only a minority of the Arabic loanwords in Modern Persian are full replacements (f.ex. Arabic "esm" and "ajaleh" are used in Modern Persian, but so are the original Iranic "naam" and "tond" or "zud").

I remember reading a historical source some years ago that ascribed most of these Arab words in Istanbuli Turkish being mediated through Persian, which would explain the large overlap between them in both Turkish and Persian (alongside the confusion of the ultimate source in etymological comparisons).

Personally speaking, I'm supportive of Atatürk's reforms. Tajikistan also took on a similar campaign in the past decade or so I've read online by forming novel Dari terms to replace Arabic or Russian loans. I'd also like to see the modified Arabic script being abandoned for Persian (there isn't a rational argument in support of keeping it).

Naam is not iranic, its origin is Sanskrit, it comes from Nama, used in the same form by the Khotanese as well.

DMXX
01-17-2016, 10:44 PM
Naam is not iranic, its origin is Sanskrit, it comes from Nama, used in the same form by the Khotanese as well.


Actually, the word "name" is one of those few proto-Indo-European words which has persisted in a largely unchanged state across space and time through numerous branches. See here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_vocabulary#Mental_functions_and_states) for cross-comparison between the reconstructed PIE term and some modern (plus extinct) examples. Though outdated, Pokorny's word list (selection 321 (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-X.html)) also readily shows how closely English "name", PIE *H₁neH₃mn̥/*H₁nomn̥ and proto-Iranic nām correspond so tightly (as the competent Wikipedia page shows this isn't a remarkable observation).

Given that the Avestan word is "nāma", there is no need to invoke a Sanskrit origin for "nām" in modern Iranic languages. Occam's razor applies here. Let alone the ubiquitous nature of this word across the Indo-European family.

Sanskrit's invocation here does little more than suggest the proto-Indo-Iranian word was also "nāma"... Which was already likely, given the high retention of this word in IE.

For the sake of clarity, I described the word as "Iranic" to form a convenient contradistinction against the Arabic word (esm). If we are to be refined in our typification, "Indo-European" will be the correct choice.

surbakhunWeesste
01-17-2016, 11:09 PM
Actually, the word "name" is one of those few proto-Indo-European words which has persisted in a largely unchanged state across space and time through numerous branches. See here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_vocabulary#Mental_functions_and_states) for cross-comparison between the reconstructed PIE term and some modern (plus extinct) examples. Though outdated, Pokorny's word list (selection 321 (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-X.html)) also readily shows how closely English "name", PIE *H₁neH₃mn̥/*H₁nomn̥ and proto-Iranic nām correspond so tightly (as the competent Wikipedia page shows this isn't a remarkable observation).

Given that the Avestan word is "nāma", there is no need to invoke a Sanskrit origin for "nām" in modern Iranic languages. Occam's razor applies here. Let alone the ubiquitous nature of this word across the Indo-European family.

Sanskrit's invocation here does little more than suggest the proto-Indo-Iranian word was also "nāma"... Which was already likely, given the high retention of this word in IE.

For the sake of clarity, I described the word as "Iranic" to form a convenient contradistinction against the Arabic word (esm). If we are to be refined in our typification, "Indo-European" will be the correct choice.

You are definitely right about PIE.

psaglav
01-18-2016, 04:01 PM
Personally speaking, I'm supportive of Atatürk's reforms. Tajikistan also took on a similar campaign in the past decade or so I've read online by forming novel Dari terms to replace Arabic or Russian loans. I'd also like to see the modified Arabic script being abandoned for Persian (there isn't a rational argument in support of keeping it).

I only meant the vocabulary. I'm glad we're not using the Arabic script as it has no obvious advantage over the Latin. And I wish Persian were written with the Latin alphabet; it'd be so much easier to learn it (I'd love to, personally.)

That said, I can't read the little notes, postcards, and letters my grandparents wrote to each other and to relatives, so I'd like to have reading knowledge of Ottoman Turkish.

Hanna
01-18-2016, 04:59 PM
That's interesting. And thanks for the link.

There are quite a number of Persian rooted words; there were a lot more, but, as you said, during the language reform, a large number of Persian and Arabic loanwords were eliminated -which is a shame, Turkish was a richer language with them, IMHO.

I believe there still are significant amounts of Turkish words that are derived from Arabic. Believe it or not I learned a good amount of spoken Arabic through common words between Arabic and Turkish.

Hanna
01-18-2016, 05:14 PM
Personally speaking, I'm supportive of Atatürk's reforms. Tajikistan also took on a similar campaign in the past decade or so I've read online by forming novel Dari terms to replace Arabic or Russian loans. I'd also like to see the modified Arabic script being abandoned for Persian (there isn't a rational argument in support of keeping it).
Ataturk's reform was hypocritical, it was not like he replaced the ottoman Arabic terms with original Turkic terms, English and French terms were taken in instead.

psaglav
01-18-2016, 05:37 PM
I believe there still are significant amounts of Turkish words that are derived from Arabic. Believe it or not I learned a good amount of spoken Arabic through common words between Arabic and Turkish.

Oh yeah, there are still a LOT of them. But I don't use the words my grandparents use anymore, and most people hardly ever know what they mean when they come across them. Then I guess that's natural; even if weren't for the language reform, it was bound to happen. I'm not a huge fan of the forced examples, though.

psaglav
01-18-2016, 05:39 PM
Ataturk's reform was hypocritical, it was not like he replaced the ottoman Arabic terms with original Turkic terms, English and French terms were taken in instead.

I don't agree, many French words (most of them related to modern tech, etc.) were already in the language by the 19th century if not earlier. I'm talking about weird "oz" Turkish trials of the 30s where they just added various suffixes to various roots and came up with amalgams.

icebreaker
01-18-2016, 05:46 PM
I'm not against the adoption of latin script but the vocabulary change goes too far.Some people think Ataturks intention was to purify Ottoman Turkish from foreign elements. His real intention however was to westernize Turkey, and to achieve that he needed to erase millennia old Seljuk-Ottoman legacy. To sell the idea he used the nationalism card. If he really cared that much about the turkic language he could follow Ali Shir Neva'i or Mahmud-al Kashgari's examples. You don't become a Turkish linguist if you import some french, mongolian or hungarian words to replace the words turks were using for 1000 or more years.

Just my 2 cents

Hanna
01-18-2016, 05:52 PM
I don't agree, many French words (most of them related to modern tech, etc.) were already in the language by the 19th century if not earlier. I'm talking about weird "oz" Turkish trials of the 30s where they just added various suffixes to various roots and came up with amalgams.

Certainly it was Ataturk who changed the Arabic script into Latin script, he banned the fez and replaced it with western hats. Ataturk's motives were clearly not nationalist. He tried to Westernize the country, not Turkify it.

Pigmon
01-18-2016, 06:01 PM
Ataturk strongly encouraged women to stop wearing the burka in Turkey.

From SNOPES:

Comment: How To Solve The Burqua Problem

For those struggling to ban women from wearing Burqua in their countries,
Mustafa Kamal, who has a nickname of "Attaturk" and who is the founder of
modern Turkey resolved the problem in a very wise way. He issued the
following decree:

"With immediate effect, all Turkish women are privileged to wear whatever
they choose, however, all prostitutes must wear a burqua!!!

The very next day, no women in Turkey were seen in a burqua."

I lived in Yalova, Turkey for three years and hardly ever saw a woman in a burqua.
Reply With Quote
"

Certainly it was Ataturk who changed the Arabic script into Latin script, he banned the fez and replaced it with western hats. Ataturk's motives were clearly not nationalist. He tried to Westernize the country, not Turkify it.

XooR
01-18-2016, 06:06 PM
I'm not against the adoption of latin script but the vocabulary change goes too far.Some people think Ataturks intention was to purify Ottoman Turkish from foreign elements. His real intention however was to westernize Turkey, and to achieve that he needed to erase millennia old Seljuk-Ottoman legacy. To sell the idea he used the nationalism card. If he really cared that much about the turkic language he could follow Ali Shir Neva'i or Mahmud-al Kashgari's examples. You don't become a Turkish linguist if you import some french, mongolian or hungarian words to replace the words turks were using for 1000 or more years.

Just my 2 cents

I disagree.
By the initiative of Ataturk, Turkish Language Association (Turkish: Türk Dil Kurumu - TDK) has founded on July 12, 1932.
The primary function of this association was to protect the integrity of the Turkish language and was a key institution in the Republic of Turkey to re-position itself as a secular nation-state after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. During the 1930s and 1940s, it led massive campaigns to replace the many Arabic, Persian, Greek and French loanwords whose immense use in the Turkish language during the centuries preceding the foundation of the Republic had created a literary language considerably different from the spoken Turkish of the time, which is now called Ottoman Turkish.

Attached is also percentages of Turkish word origins. (2007)
7358

psaglav
01-18-2016, 06:14 PM
Certainly it was Ataturk who changed the Arabic script into Latin script, he banned the fez and replaced it with western hats. Ataturk's motives were clearly not nationalist. He tried to Westernize the country, not Turkify it.

Certainly both to Westernize *and* Turkify it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Nation states are a product of Modernism, after all.

psaglav
01-18-2016, 06:18 PM
Certainly it was Ataturk who changed the Arabic script into Latin script, he banned the fez and replaced it with western hats. Ataturk's motives were clearly not nationalist. He tried to Westernize the country, not Turkify it.

By the way, the fez itself is pretty modern :) when it was first made into fashion there was wild opposition from the conservatives. I'm talking about Mahmud's mid-18th century reforms here.

icebreaker
01-18-2016, 06:34 PM
I disagree.
By the initiative of Ataturk, Turkish Language Association (Turkish: Türk Dil Kurumu - TDK) has founded on July 12, 1932.
The primary function of this association was to protect the integrity of the Turkish language and was a key institution in the Republic of Turkey to re-position itself as a secular nation-state after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. During the 1930s and 1940s, it led massive campaigns to replace the many Arabic, Persian, Greek and French loanwords whose immense use in the Turkish language during the centuries preceding the foundation of the Republic had created a literary language considerably different from the spoken Turkish of the time, which is now called Ottoman Turkish.

Attached is also percentages of Turkish word origins. (2007)
7358

Like i said before i'm not against the adoption of latin script, the simplification of the grammer is also not a bad thing. I'm against the vocabulary change, which was imo too radical. Btw, those arab words had totally different meaning in arabic. When we say (or said) "mektep" instead of 'okul' we knew its school, in arabic it means only desk. When we turkified those words they became ours. The word cumhuriyet (republic) comes from the arabic word cumhur, but it doesn't have the same meaning in Arabic. We gave it the meaning it has now.

I consdier those arabic, greek, persian words as an enrichment. Sure, you can teach and even encourage the children to use the turkic equivalent. But that doesn't give you the right to erase the other.

Pigmon
01-18-2016, 08:19 PM
For those who know much more about the Turkish language than I do:

Would the language reforms of Ataturk have implemented the soft ğ in Turkish as it is now?

I suppose I am asking if Piğmon would have been pronounced as the French pronunciation of Pimond or Pimont as Pimon both before and after the reforms.

Some examples of the Turkish soft g or ğ:

Mt. Uludağ

Tayyip Erdoğan

yağ (oil)

Hanna
01-19-2016, 07:11 AM
Certainly both to Westernize *and* Turkify it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Nation states are a product of Modernism, after all.

It seems Turkification was applied only to non-Turkish ethnic groups examples like the last name reform and changing names of certain villages to Turkish. What was the point of this?? Where as Westernization was applied to Turks. I really can't see any Turkification agenda when the republic was formed.

dp
01-19-2016, 09:37 PM
I have noticed that I hear the V- more than W- starting V/W words. Usually if I can't find a word I've heard with a v-, if I look up w- I'll find it in the AR dictionaries. AN example deriving from Hindi: the word for coal, angara => vangar "v-ng-r" (omitted vowels which have shifted in pronounciation) for coal is often written as wonga. Has anyone written on the geographic distribution on using v- vs. w-?
dp :-)

Yup!

As part of the language reforms spearheaded by Atatürk's (RIP) linguists, loanwords in Istanbuli Turkish beginning with "x/kh" were softened to "h". Another example you'll recognise as a Turkish speaker being "Haber" (from Arabic "xabar/khabar", "news"). Same applies to "Khosh/Xosh", which is an Iranic loanword from Persian.

Interestingly enough, a consonant word shift (k > x/kh) occurred in the Oghuz Turkic languages (please see here (http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/13_folder/13_articles/kurtulush_azeri_turkish_13.pdf)). That means the various "x/kh" sounds one often hears in Oghuz Turkic languages to the east (Anatolian or Caucasian Turkish and Azeri dialects, Turkmen) aren't derived from proto-Turkic. I've recently wondered whether that reflects some sort of Iranian influence.



"Baxt/bakht" and "vaxt/vakht/wakht" are different words in the Iranic languages (they mean the same thing in Kurdish dialects, Persian and Pashto; "luck" and "time" respectively).

As I understand it, these are originally Iranic terms (the Sanskrit equivalents being "bhagya" and "vela"). So, any derivations of either in modern Indo-Aryan languages are likely loanwords from Iranic languages (impossible to conclude the medium for "bakht" given it's the exact same word across the main Iranic languages).



^ Co-sign the conclusions above. All correct.

paulgill
01-20-2016, 02:47 AM
I have noticed that I hear the V- more than W- starting V/W words. Usually if I can't find a word I've heard with a v-, if I look up w- I'll find it in the AR dictionaries. AN example deriving from Hindi: the word for coal, angara => vangar "v-ng-r" (omitted vowels which have shifted in pronounciation) for coal is often written as wonga. Has anyone written on the geographic distribution on using v- vs. w-?
dp :-)

Not a linguist so can't answer your question correctly, but I think there is only one letter in Hindi that one will use for V or W and it should sound somewhat like a softer V or a much sharper W.

pegasus
01-23-2016, 12:24 PM
I have noticed that I hear the V- more than W- starting V/W words. Usually if I can't find a word I've heard with a v-, if I look up w- I'll find it in the AR dictionaries. AN example deriving from Hindi: the word for coal, angara => vangar "v-ng-r" (omitted vowels which have shifted in pronounciation) for coal is often written as wonga. Has anyone written on the geographic distribution on using v- vs. w-?
dp :-)


Typically Indo Aryan languages to my knowledge lack W , V is used, if you look at Sanskrit , you will only see V, same thing in Iranian Avestan , just V. W made its way back via Dravidian substratum into some Indo Aryan Prakrits and in contemporary Indo Aryan languages via Arabic words.


Interestingly you will never hear V or P in Semitic languages, they use W and B only.

Stellaritic
01-23-2016, 01:20 PM
Typically Indo Aryan languages to my knowledge lack W , V is used, if you look at Sanskrit , you will only see V, same thing in Iranian Avestan , just V. W made its way back via Dravidian substratum into some Indo Aryan Prakrits and in contemporary Indo Aryan languages via Arabic words.


Interestingly you will never hear V or P in Semitic languages, they use W and B only.

V and P sounds are found in Canaanite languages/dialects, usually the V and B are very close to each other and apparently these two consonant frequently shift from one to another .
EX: The Hebrew word for wolf is zeev , in Egyptian Arabic it's zeeb.
Vava in Berber means Baba/father in Algerian Arabic, I heard the v letter is pronounced B in Spanish .

pnb123
01-24-2016, 11:10 AM
Currently learning Sanskrit and Spanish. I'm fluent in Nepali (reading/writing/speaking) and English. I don't have that much practical experience talking in Hindi, but I think I can hold some basic conversation without any problems. I can write in Hindi (same script as Nepali) and also read.

tamilgangster
01-24-2016, 11:31 AM
Im fluent in english, understand tamil by ear instinctivley by can't read or write it. Understand spanish by textbook have too think twice though

bol_nat
01-26-2016, 11:52 PM
Sounds softer than the Punjabi speakers I have heard in Brampton (suburb in Toronto which has tonnes of Punjabi speakers) during my Toronto visits. That style of hat is also very popular with Pashtuns. Is it of Balochi origin?

That hat sindhi topi. He is speaking formal punjabi, informal will be something like I posted some pages back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5cW3Eq4Tw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7D6aB6yIKY

formal punjabi speech spoken in village mosques but little different tone this time, more fired up


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRBbCyevekM

In either case it will sound little different then Indian punjabi.

Kurd
01-27-2016, 01:47 AM
That hat sindhi topi. He is speaking formal punjabi, informal will be something like I posted some pages back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5cW3Eq4Tw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7D6aB6yIKY

formal punjabi speech spoken in village mosques but little different tone this time, more fired up


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRBbCyevekM

In either case it will sound little different then Indian punjabi.

That Gujranvala baba should be R rated. He has a very foul mouth....... Wow holy crap:)

khanabadoshi
01-28-2016, 12:51 AM
I'm guessing this is somewhere near Bahawalpur based on how they speak... but it just might be the lyrics of the song. Could be Northern Sindh as well.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22d9t9_saraiki-daisi-sehra_music

khanabadoshi
01-28-2016, 01:26 AM
That Gujranvala baba should be R rated. He has a very foul mouth....... Wow holy crap:)

Baba's tend to have some foul mouths! Hahaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9gVR6snnao



This video might interest you Kurd. Especially after 5:35. These 2 kids ran away from school, met a guy on their way back to their homes... so this guy interviews these 2 kids as to why they have left.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz8z1qIUBes

surbakhunWeesste
01-28-2016, 01:42 AM
That hat sindhi topi.

We call it Kandahari Khowlay/Kandahari topi. This specific embroidery on the hats and Peyhran called Khamak/Dozii(embroidery) is 'exclusive' to Kandahar, such work is also found on Peyhran/Kameez/shirt, Firaq(women's dress), wasskot(waistcoat) and is worn by all Afghans and Pashtuns in general.

http://www.zarinas.com/imagesx2/1DEC13KANDHAT2.jpg

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-th713czu/products/660/images/16632/JT27__97650.1446279538.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/775/1677775/1677775_150816130507_IMG_5049.JPG

[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a5/14/df/a514df68ed6f97eb60058f87119fed37.jpg

Kurd
01-28-2016, 02:32 AM
This video might interest you Kurd. Especially after 5:35. These 2 kids ran away from school, met a guy on their way back to their homes... so this guy interviews these 2 kids as to why they have left.

Funny guys...

Makhiyan di intihaa kai nahi....class yc bache apne bistre ghin aande ...:)

bol_nat
01-28-2016, 09:32 PM
Baba's tend to have some foul mouths! Hahaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9gVR6snnao

es[/video]

:laugh: Does anyone know how similar hindko and seraki languages are? To me this baba seraiki remind me of hindko speaking people I have met.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDj9nXFSdlg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YfXYsgc1kU

Kurd
01-28-2016, 10:06 PM
:laugh: Does anyone know how similar hindko and seraki languages are? To me this baba seraiki remind me of hindko speaking people I have met.


There is more overlap with Saraiki, especially N Saraiki (Talagang, Mianwali) than Punjabi has with Saraiki, but the video sounds like DG saraiki, which is a little harder to understand than Mianwali dialect. I would say someone from DGK would have an easier time with Hindko than the other way around

Edit: IMO a Lahori would understand Hindko the most followed by Mianwali Sar followed by DGK Sar

Star93
01-29-2016, 12:30 AM
I speak English, Albanian and German. :)

khanabadoshi
01-29-2016, 11:53 AM
There is more overlap with Saraiki, especially N Saraiki (Talagang, Mianwali) than Punjabi has with Saraiki, but the video sounds like DG saraiki, which is a little harder to understand than Mianwali dialect. I would say someone from DGK would have an easier time with Hindko than the other way around

Edit: IMO a Lahori would understand Hindko the most followed by Mianwali Sar followed by DGK Sar

A good chunk of my relatives speak Hindko, it is essentially mutually intelligible with Saraiki as long as you understand Punjabi. The Punjabi of Mianwali and Chakwal has lots of overlap, sometimes you have to listen to a few sentences before you realize what is being spoken. You are right, the man is from DG Khan haha.

This guy is from Bhakkar area just south of Mianwali etc. Video says Punjabi, however to me, this is essentially pure Saraiki -- guy lives in Thal desert.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQel1gkJhk


@bol_nat: This the area where I'm from: @2:21 on wards listen to the village men speak.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgjDggTWjeo


After 3:50, the guy interviewing is speaking Punjabi, so you can hear them side by side.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM940YOLmS4

khanabadoshi
01-29-2016, 12:22 PM
I speak English, Albanian and German. :)

Post some old Albanian men speaking, since this is what the thread has turned into. Hahaha.
I don't know about the rest of you, but i love listening to old men speak.

psaglav
01-29-2016, 04:20 PM
Post some old Albanian men speaking, since this is what the thread has turned into. Hahaha.
I don't know about the rest of you, but i love listening to old men speak.

When I get back home, I'll try to find this old Ubykh recording. It's also an old man speaking. The language is extinct now but at some point, my father's great grandfathers were speaking it.

Hanna
01-29-2016, 06:38 PM
This is me. My voice is a bit husky this week due to teaching, it's usually softer:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ke5OkmemgA

Star93
01-29-2016, 07:17 PM
Good idea!
This video is of standard dialect


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF7MmZ_0Gw4

khanabadoshi
01-29-2016, 07:39 PM
My attempt at everything was shameful... hahahaha.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yCDmYbRmyF

Punjabis, don't be mad at me.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2016, 10:50 PM
My attempt at everything was shameful... hahahaha.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yCDmYbRmyF

Punjabis, don't be mad at me.

Khana plz.

bored
01-29-2016, 11:55 PM
My attempt at everything was shameful... hahahaha.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yCDmYbRmyF

Punjabis, don't be mad at me.

You sound like a typical Pakistani boy.

khanabadoshi
01-30-2016, 01:55 AM
Khana plz.


You sound like a typical Pakistani boy.

Monkey. I tried. I knew you were gonna criticise me. Hahahaha.
It's the effort that counts.

Bored. How. Dare. You. I tried so hard to be 'unique'. LOL.

bored
01-30-2016, 10:12 AM
I can't understand Seraiki.

Hanna
01-30-2016, 03:06 PM
I thought I'll mention it here cause I'v been receiving reputation comments. Easier to respond at once.
Yes, both my parents are Turkish but I was born and raised in America, hence the accent.

Kurd
01-31-2016, 12:14 AM
Yawa da mogholi melody zma khaista malgari Surbakhun la para.:)

I made and played this melody on my old Yamaha keyboard yesterday. Sorry for the poor recording, I was using my iphone mic.






http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS)

surbakhunWeesste
01-31-2016, 03:49 AM
Yawa da mogholi melody zma khaista malgari Surbakhun la para.:)

I made and played this melody on my old Yamaha keyboard yesterday. Sorry for the poor recording, I was using my iphone mic.






http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS)

NameKhuday Wrorajana, deyr sha, manana. Stase saaz ristaye khoshawaze aw shayesta dee dzeka tshi ta deyr qabel aw talented dee.

Translation: Praises, dear brother, very good, thank you. Your music truly sounds very melodious and beautiful because you are very able and talented.

Kurd
01-31-2016, 07:28 AM
NameKhuday Wrorajana, deyr sha, manana. Stase saaz ristaye khoshawaze aw shayesta dee dzeka tshi ta deyr qabel aw talented dee.

Translation: Praises, dear brother, very good, thank you. Your music truly sounds very melodious and beautiful because you are very able and talented.

Dera manana khorjana. Za khushala shwam che taso khwash di.....

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2016, 04:34 PM
Yawa da mogholi melody zma khaista malgari Surbakhun la para.:)

I made and played this melody on my old Yamaha keyboard yesterday. Sorry for the poor recording, I was using my iphone mic.






http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TMmcxGWIxS)

That was beautiful!

psaglav
02-01-2016, 05:17 PM
http://youtu.be/RxQCf6eaToI

The first language is Ubykh. The person who's reading the text is not a native speaker (I'm guessing because the last native speaker died in the 90s) but I think he's doing a good job.

I was looking for the video where Tevfik Esenc tells a story in Ubykh -that'd be an old man speaking a weird language :) but I wasn't able to find it. Maybe Agamemnon would have it.

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 06:12 PM
My attempt at everything was shameful... hahahaha.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yCDmYbRmyF

Punjabis, don't be mad at me.


Khana plz.

hahaha

That's why I can't speak Punjabi. I always understood it well enough to realize how badly I was butchering it when I attempted to speak it. So I never wound up speaking it.

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 06:14 PM
I thought I'll mention it here cause I'v been receiving reputation comments. Easier to respond at once.
Yes, both my parents are Turkish but I was born and raised in America, hence the accent.

Do you live in Turkey?

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 06:20 PM
My attempt at everything was shameful... hahahaha.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yCDmYbRmyF

Punjabis, don't be mad at me.



http://youtu.be/RxQCf6eaToI

The first language is Ubykh. The person who's reading the text is not a native speaker (I'm guessing because the last native speaker died in the 90s) but I think he's doing a good job.

I was looking for the video where Tevfik Esenc tells a story in Ubykh -that'd be an old man speaking a weird language :) but I wasn't able to find it. Maybe Agamemnon would have it.

I had an English teacher in High School read parts of Beowulf in Old English and it sounded pretty much like German. Proto-Germanic still sounds Germanic in this. Proto-Indo-European sounds truly foreign, but it reminds me of something you'd hear in Central Asia.

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 06:22 PM
I can't understand Seraiki.

It feels like warped Punjabi. I can sort of get an idea.

Hanna
02-01-2016, 07:02 PM
Do you live in Turkey?

No, I lived in Turkey for only two years but I almost always visit Turkey during the Summer. Currently I live in the UAE. Some people don't know the UAE (United Arab Emirates) so I just say Dubai if that rings a bell?

bored
02-01-2016, 09:40 PM
It feels like warped Punjabi. I can sort of get an idea.

Tbh with me it's like that with Punjabi sometimes as well. I can't understand rural Punjabi. I'm not a native Punjabi speaker and it's super obvious. I don't speak it because just like you, I know I'll butcher it.

Dr_McNinja
02-02-2016, 12:32 AM
No, I lived in Turkey for only two years but I almost always visit Turkey during the Summer. Currently I live in the UAE. Some people don't know the UAE (United Arab Emirates) so I just say Dubai if that rings a bell?

Yeah, I've been everywhere. Except Turkey. Wanted to finally go this year, but we'll see. I don't want to get flagged for something by traveling to Turkey and Saudi-Arabia in the same year. My passport already has too many stamps from Pakistan. I get automatically put on that extra screening 'SSSS' list for 6 months whenever I go.

Dr_McNinja
02-02-2016, 12:34 AM
Tbh with me it's like that with Punjabi sometimes as well. I can't understand rural Punjabi. I'm not a native Punjabi speaker and it's super obvious. I don't speak it because just like you, I know I'll butcher it.I wonder if I can understand any Pahari/Dogri languages and if it's more or less than with Seraiki.

surbakhunWeesste
02-02-2016, 01:54 AM
Tbh with me it's like that with Punjabi sometimes as well. I can't understand rural Punjabi. I'm not a native Punjabi speaker and it's super obvious. I don't speak it because just like you, I know I'll butcher it.

If you want to learn a new language, odds are that you are disposed to sounding like someone with some sort of speech impediment but that ends with mucho practice, this mere impulse shouldn't be the reason to cease from speaking/learning it. Just recollect how babies sound when they start uttering words; cut yourself some slack.

Hanna
02-02-2016, 05:58 AM
Yeah, I've been everywhere. Except Turkey. Wanted to finally go this year, but we'll see. I don't want to get flagged for something by traveling to Turkey and Saudi-Arabia in the same year. My passport already has too many stamps from Pakistan. I get automatically put on that extra screening 'SSSS' list for 6 months whenever I go.
Are you from Pakistan?
Saudi Arabia isn't much of a touristic destination, Muslims mainly go for pilgrimage.
You should really visit Turkey, very historic and naturally beautiful.

bored
02-02-2016, 06:49 PM
If you want to learn a new language, odds are that you are disposed to sounding like someone with some sort of speech impediment but that ends with mucho practice, this mere impulse shouldn't be the reason to cease from speaking/learning it. Just recollect how babies sound when they start uttering words; cut yourself some slack.

Thanks. That's good advice actually.

bored
02-02-2016, 06:52 PM
I wonder if I can understand any Pahari/Dogri languages and if it's more or less than with Seraiki.

I think Dogri sounds more similar to Punjabi but I could be wrong. Judge for yourself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdu_I1YMQq8

Dr_McNinja
02-02-2016, 08:31 PM
I think Dogri sounds more similar to Punjabi but I could be wrong. Judge for yourself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdu_I1YMQq8

Wow, that sounds exactly like Punjabi but with a bunch of words I don't recognize. I can more or less get what he's saying.

Dr_McNinja
02-02-2016, 08:34 PM
Are you from Pakistan?
Saudi Arabia isn't much of a touristic destination, Muslims mainly go for pilgrimage.
You should really visit Turkey, very historic and naturally beautiful.
Yeah, I'm going on Umrah with my family. Whenever we get time off, that's what they wanna do. It's like my 6th time.

I was born and raised in the States, parents are Pakistani and I travel to Pakistan a lot.

Turkey's at the top of my list right now. Hope I get a chance soon.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-02-2016, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I've been everywhere. Except Turkey. Wanted to finally go this year, but we'll see. I don't want to get flagged for something by traveling to Turkey and Saudi-Arabia in the same year. My passport already has too many stamps from Pakistan. I get automatically put on that extra screening 'SSSS' list for 6 months whenever I go.

Brah I've Indian passport and I've been only to Canada, I still get *randomly* checked.

bored
02-02-2016, 09:06 PM
Brah I've Indian passport and I've been only to Canada, I still get *randomly* checked.


Once as I was going through airport security, a random guy popped out of nowhere to do an explosives test on me. He swabbed my hands. It's a good thing he found nothing.

DMXX
02-07-2016, 09:30 PM
Ataturk's reform was hypocritical, it was not like he replaced the ottoman Arabic terms with original Turkic terms, English and French terms were taken in instead.

As psaglav says, there already were plenty of European words in Turkish (as well as Persian!) by the time of Ataturk and Reza Pahlavi.


For those who know much more about the Turkish language than I do:

Would the language reforms of Ataturk have implemented the soft ğ in Turkish as it is now?

I suppose I am asking if Piğmon would have been pronounced as the French pronunciation of Pimond or Pimont as Pimon both before and after the reforms.

Some examples of the Turkish soft g or ğ:

Mt. Uludağ

Tayyip Erdoğan

yağ (oil)

I believe so, yes. I've heard Turks speaking Istanbuli Turkish and the "ğ" functions as something of a vowel emphasiser (i.e. son, "oğlu", pronounced as "oh-lu").

In Azeri, "ğ" basically sounds like the "g" equivalent of "kh". Similar to the way the "ch" is pronounced in the English word "loch".

When I traveled through eastern Turkey as a child, however, I heard the Turks around Lake Van pronouncing it the same way as Azeris do. Then again, if I recall, not all of the language reforms centred around Istanbuli Turkish managed to supercede regional dialects in Turkey. My father (and other Azeri Iranians) have told me it's easier to understand Turkish spoken by eastern Turks, Georgian Turks (Meskhetians) and Iraqi Turkmen than Istanbuli Turkish.

Whether or not the distinction in "ğ" pronounciation is due to Ataturk's reforms is a guess on my part, but the difference certainly exists.

surbakhunWeesste
02-07-2016, 09:40 PM
Once as I was going through airport security, a random guy popped out of nowhere to do an explosives test on me. He swabbed my hands. It's a good thing he found nothing.

That was bound to happen, a Brahmin without a proper Brahmin attire, westerners can be mad aloof esp. the TSA employees; he got confused since you prolly looked like some kind of west Asian or rather a Pakistani Iranic! That must have been a nerve wrecking moment.

khanabadoshi
02-07-2016, 09:57 PM
Yeah, I've been everywhere. Except Turkey. Wanted to finally go this year, but we'll see. I don't want to get flagged for something by traveling to Turkey and Saudi-Arabia in the same year. My passport already has too many stamps from Pakistan. I get automatically put on that extra screening 'SSSS' list for 6 months whenever I go.

You made me LOL at work. Anyone that knows the highlighted yellow and circled 'SSSS' boarding pass routine has their shoes off, belt, watch, and wallet tucked away, coat neatly wrapped, and a few plastic bags with contact solution and toothpaste ready to dump into the gray bin of vigilance way before their turn in line. hahahaha.

XooR
02-07-2016, 10:03 PM
As psaglav says, there already were plenty of European words in Turkish (as well as Persian!) by the time of Ataturk and Reza Pahlavi.



I believe so, yes. I've heard Turks speaking Istanbuli Turkish and the "ğ" functions as something of a vowel emphasiser (i.e. son, "oğlu", pronounced as "oh-lu").

In Azeri, "ğ" basically sounds like the "g" equivalent of "kh". Similar to the way the "ch" is pronounced in the English word "loch".

When I traveled through eastern Turkey as a child, however, I heard the Turks around Lake Van pronouncing it the same way as Azeris do. Then again, if I recall, not all of the language reforms centred around Istanbuli Turkish managed to supercede regional dialects in Turkey. My father (and other Azeri Iranians) have told me it's easier to understand Turkish spoken by eastern Turks, Georgian Turks (Meskhetians) and Iraqi Turkmen than Istanbuli Turkish.

Whether or not the distinction in "ğ" pronounciation is due to Ataturk's reforms is a guess on my part, but the difference certainly exists.

The current 29-letter Turkish alphabet was established as a personal initiative of the founder of the Turkish Republic, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. It was a key step in the cultural part of Atatürk's Reforms. The commission was responsible for adapting the Latin script to meet the phonetic requirements of the Turkish language. The resulting Latin alphabet was designed to reflect the actual sounds of spoken Turkish, rather than simply transcribing the old Ottoman script into a new form.

The Turkish alphabet is an alphabet derived from the Latin alphabet used for writing the Turkish language, consisting of 29 letters, seven of which (Ç, Ğ, I, İ, Ö, Ş, and Ü) have been modified from their Latin originals for the phonetic requirements of the language. The letters Q, W, and X of the ISO basic Latin alphabet do not occur in the Turkish alphabet (replacements for these letters are K, V and KS), while dotted and dotless I are distinct letters in Turkish so that "i" does not become "I" when capitalized.

The Language Commission proposed a five-year transition period; Atatürk saw this as far too long and reduced it to three months. Atatürk himself was personally involved with the commission and proclaimed an "alphabet mobilisation" to publicise the changes. He toured the country explaining the new system of writing and encouraging the rapid adoption of the new alphabet.

Hanna
02-08-2016, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I'm going on Umrah with my family. Whenever we get time off, that's what they wanna do. It's like my 6th time.

I was born and raised in the States, parents are Pakistani and I travel to Pakistan a lot.

Turkey's at the top of my list right now. Hope I get a chance soon.

I didn't know you were from Pakistan or a Muslim!
I may go for Umrah this year, it is very easy and cheap to go to Umrah from where I am living.

DMXX
02-08-2016, 07:44 PM
The current 29-letter Turkish alphabet was established as a personal initiative of the founder of the Turkish Republic ...

Yes, I am acutely aware of the development of the modified Latin script for Turkish.

My comments were with respect to the vocalisation of the "ğ" letter in Turkish languages, and whether or not the apparent "softening" one hears in Istanbuli Turkish versus other Turkish dialects (or Oghuz Turkic languages) was also a part of Ataturk's reforms, or was simply a native development.

Dr_McNinja
02-08-2016, 08:28 PM
I didn't know you were from Pakistan or a Muslim!
Yeah, I'm Punjabi so it would have to be either India or Pakistan. :) The genetics are fuzzy as to which side of the border though.


I may go for Umrah this year, it is very easy and cheap to go to Umrah from where I am living.Prices are good right now. So is weather.

I've done Umrah during Ramadan in the Summer last two times we went... Not an experience I think I want to repeat just yet. It was more packed than Hajj. They at least control numbers better during Hajj. Complete chaos.

Pigmon
02-09-2016, 02:36 PM
Thanks DMXX for the input on the elusive Turkish soft ğ.

Now if it were not illegal to test DNA in France and if I could find a Pimond or Pimont there to test their y-DNA I would be a happy man!

My family migration "theory" over the past two millennia is:

Smyrna, Greece (already have some perfect matches there) to France (possibly Correze) to Hunstanton and Norwich, Norfolk, England then to Maryland in the 17th century.

Curtis Piğmon
(P.S. I lived in Yalova, Turkey 1971-1974)



As psaglav says, there already were plenty of European words in Turkish (as well as Persian!) by the time of Ataturk and Reza Pahlavi.



I believe so, yes. I've heard Turks speaking Istanbuli Turkish and the "ğ" functions as something of a vowel emphasiser (i.e. son, "oğlu", pronounced as "oh-lu").

In Azeri, "ğ" basically sounds like the "g" equivalent of "kh". Similar to the way the "ch" is pronounced in the English word "loch".

When I traveled through eastern Turkey as a child, however, I heard the Turks around Lake Van pronouncing it the same way as Azeris do. Then again, if I recall, not all of the language reforms centred around Istanbuli Turkish managed to supercede regional dialects in Turkey. My father (and other Azeri Iranians) have told me it's easier to understand Turkish spoken by eastern Turks, Georgian Turks (Meskhetians) and Iraqi Turkmen than Istanbuli Turkish.

Whether or not the distinction in "ğ" pronounciation is due to Ataturk's reforms is a guess on my part, but the difference certainly exists.

kakiasumi
08-20-2017, 09:11 AM
I can speak three languages fluently: Khowar/Chitrali my mother tongue, Urdu and English.

Gandhara
08-20-2017, 01:10 PM
Urdu, Punjabi ( Seriaki, Hindko and all dialects) , little Sindi and conversational Hindi.

Zayd
08-20-2017, 01:44 PM
Bengali and Italian fluently, my English is fair enough, I can understand Hindi/Urdu and other Indo aryan languages and i also understand little bit of German.

ssamlal
08-20-2017, 03:03 PM
Fluent in English (Trinidad Standard & Creole; Canadian); can switch between them.

When I first moved to Canada, I spoke Trinidad Standard English (a slightly slower and more enunciated version). Most people said I sounded "British" or "South African" for some reason.

My Trinidadian Creole English has degraded somewhat and become less melodic.

Can understand, speak and write "Parisian" French very well. "Quebec" French is a little more difficult for me.

Can understand most Spanish speakers (except when they talk very fast). Can speak and write enough Spanish & Brazilian Portuguese to get by.

I believe my grandparents spoke and understood Hindi very well (as well as being conversant in English). My parents speak / understand some Hindi. My generation speak / understand very little Hindi (mostly what we’ve learned from watching Bollywood movies with subtitles).

In my time the public school curriculum included Spanish and French (but not Hindi/Bhojpuri or any African languages). A second language was mandatory to graduate so I opted for French.

Trinidad Standard English:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidadian_English

Trinidad Creole English:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidadian_Creole

Videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiOf_n3JliI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nevbLzg6YdU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcaNmdre1tQ