PDA

View Full Version : V20 SNP defines new subhaplogroup of C



lgmayka
11-28-2012, 04:22 PM
A few weeks ago, Dienekes commented on a newly published paper (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/deep-structure-in-y-chromosome.html)which defined a new subhaplogroup of C based on several SNPs, including V20.

Several men in the yDNA C Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx?section=ysnp) have been found V20+ :

N66830 of Spain
218881 of Poland
164416 of Scotland

I invite those of European ancestry classified by FTDNA as C* to order the V20 SNP test.

Diverclic
01-31-2014, 07:20 PM
I am surprised this thread didn't start again with the publication of this paper : Genomic Affinities of Two 7,000-Year-Old Iberian Hunter-Gatherers - link : http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(12)00650-1
You have to go to the supplementary material to get the information on the Y chromosome. Only one of the 2 men was studied so far and it appears to be of haplogroup C (with little doubt) and possibly of V6 (SNP = V20) subgroup (high uncertainty). Haplogroup C6 defined by V20 is only european so far and very rare - less than 0.1% of the population.

lgmayka
02-01-2014, 12:06 AM
According to the Y-DNA C Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), confirmed or predicted cases of C-V20 come from Italy, Germany, Spain, Ireland, England, Scotland, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, and Greece.

Diverclic
02-01-2014, 03:48 AM
Yes but, again, the C6 (V20) type in La brana (Spain) was only found once and it's only mentioned in the supplementary material, not a word in the paper itself. A situation indicating (in my view) that the author themselve want to be very cautious until the second skeleton is tested. meanwhile I noticed that the C haplogroup tree undoubtedly needs a full Y sequencing of each of the main branches before we can say more. C6 (V20) was found only in Europe so far but was it really checked in nearby areas ? I note that it was absent of the Sardinian extensive testing by Francalacci et al.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 12:59 PM
We still don't know what the Andronvo C is, so V20 might have been distributed outside of Europe at one point.

parasar
02-03-2014, 03:47 AM
Yes but, again, the C6 (V20) type in La brana (Spain) was only found once and it's only mentioned in the supplementary material, not a word in the paper itself. A situation indicating (in my view) that the author themselve want to be very cautious until the second skeleton is tested. meanwhile I noticed that the C haplogroup tree undoubtedly needs a full Y sequencing of each of the main branches before we can say more. C6 (V20) was found only in Europe so far but was it really checked in nearby areas ? I note that it was absent of the Sardinian extensive testing by Francalacci et al.

The authors seem certain it is C, but not that it is V20. They also could not exclude (old) C5.

Diverclic
02-03-2014, 10:52 AM
There is a second man in La brana (Spain), presently being tested. The 2 men have the same mitochondrial haplogroup, so they might be of the same family. Y DNA tests in course might help confirm the C type.

BMG
02-04-2014, 05:51 PM
Haplogroup C1-P122 ,C5-M356 and C6-V20 are connected by Z1426 SNP as per the new isogg tree .Further C1 and C6 shares CTS11043 which separates it from C5 .
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpC.html .
It is interesting as these are seperated by big distances C1 being japanese ,C6 european and C5 south asian .
I would also expect C3 to have branched out earlier from C1'3'5'6 . Wonder where the C*s of south asia will be in the picture .

Diverclic
02-05-2014, 07:38 PM
Haplogroup C1-P122 ,C5-M356 and C6-V20 are connected by Z1426 SNP as per the new isogg tree .Further C1 and C6 shares CTS11043 which separates it from C5 .
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpC.html .
It is interesting as these are seperated by big distances C1 being japanese ,C6 european and C5 south asian .
I would also expect C3 to have branched out earlier from C1'3'5'6 . Wonder where the C*s of south asia will be in the picture .

I noticed this update on ISOGG but it seems surprising as I heard that CTS11043 is known to produce false positives and the testing in public database was limited by the number of cases available. Obviously a good paper on the C haplogroup tree is needed.
At the time Francallacci et al. sequenced so many sardinian Y chromosomes and Fullgenomes is processing batch 6 or 7 (I don't know) I guess it should be that a problem to get a full sequence with high coverage of the Y chromosome of each subgroup C1 -> C6, with probably many surprises.

Blaudrakon
09-01-2014, 08:49 PM
According to the Y-DNA C Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), confirmed or predicted cases of C-V20 come from Italy, Germany, Spain, Ireland, England, Scotland, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, and Greece.

Hello All! I am new here, so greetings from the sunny Med. Also, I am really quite DNA illiterate still, so I will appreciate your patience.

Igmayka, I wonder if you can tell me how I can participate more actively in this C haplogroup enquiry. FTDNA has me down as C-V222, and as I have a Greek background on my father's side the prediction you mentioned about C-V20 appearing in Greece is confirmed :) I am naturally intrigued by this, not least of all by it's rarity. Would I be right in saying this looks to be something like the DNA of Europe's 'aborigines'?

Mehrdad
09-01-2014, 09:58 PM
Hello All! I am new here, so greetings from the sunny Med. Also, I am really quite DNA illiterate still, so I will appreciate your patience.

Igmayka, I wonder if you can tell me how I can participate more actively in this C haplogroup enquiry. FTDNA has me down as C-V222, and as I have a Greek background on my father's side the prediction you mentioned about C-V20 appearing in Greece is confirmed :) I am naturally intrigued by this, not least of all by it's rarity. Would I be right in saying this looks to be something like the DNA of Europe's 'aborigines'?

Very interesting, considering C is very rare in Europe. I'm going to follow this thread with a little more interest. I'm not sure about C being the European Aborigines since Wikipedia has this about the subject and it's also found on Dienekes sit (http://dienekes.blogspot.ru/2014/01/brown-skinned-blue-eyed-y-haplogroup-c.html)e.


C-V20 Found with low frequency in Europeans[25] A 7000-year old hunter-gatherer from Spain carried it.

lgmayka
09-01-2014, 10:33 PM
I noticed this update on ISOGG but it seems surprising as I heard that CTS11043 is known to produce false positives and the testing in public database was limited by the number of cases available.
Take a look at YFull's haplotree for C1a (http://yfull.com/tree/C1a/). The C1a level is defined by

CTS11268 CTS8809 Z3865 Z4056 CTS9166 CTS8718 CTS11043 Y2800

The tree lists 4 public examples of the Japanese subclade (C1a1 or C-M8), but no public examples of the European C-V20. At least one member of C-V20 ordered the Big Y test in the current discount sale.

lgmayka
09-01-2014, 11:04 PM
lgmayka, I wonder if you can tell me how I can participate more actively in this C haplogroup enquiry.
I sent you an email. (You are an exact 12-marker match with kit 171250 in my project.)


FTDNA has me down as C-V222, and as I have a Greek background on my father's side the prediction you mentioned about C-V20 appearing in Greece is confirmed :) I am naturally intrigued by this, not least of all by it's rarity. Would I be right in saying this looks to be something like the DNA of Europe's 'aborigines'?
Very possibly, from perhaps 40,000 years ago. I have not seen any other reasonable explanation for why this 40,000-year-old split between Japanese and Europeans have not yet been found anywhere else on earth, and is rare even in those two places.

The estimated age of the split comes from the number of reliable SNPs listed by YFull (http://yfull.com/tree/C1a/) for the Japanese C-M8 level: 277, if I count correctly.

BMG
11-16-2014, 08:31 AM
I understand that we have now few ancient C's .The La Brana ,Hungarian one and now Kostenki .Does these samples belong to V20 clade ?

lgmayka
11-16-2014, 11:58 AM
Does these samples belong to V20 clade ?
According to Table S6 in the the supplemental materials for the Kostenki paper (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2014/11/05/science.aaa0114.DC1/Seguin-Orlando.SM.pdf), the Kostenki sample is F3393+ . C-F3393 (http://yfull.com/tree/C1/) is an early clade that eventually leads to C-V20 (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupcproject/c6) (European), C-P122 (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupcproject/c1) (Japanese), and C-M356 (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupcproject/c5) (South Asian).

As Dienekes says (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/10/ancient-dna-from-prehistoric.html), the others you mention were C-V20 (formerly called C6).

Jean M
11-16-2014, 12:47 PM
I understand that we have now few ancient C's .The La Brana ,Hungarian one and now Kostenki .Does these samples belong to V20 clade ?

lgmayka has given you the answer, but I'll just mention that you can find ancient DNA results from Western Eurasia in my tables. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

lgmayka
12-18-2014, 04:02 PM
One member of C-V20 (kit 218881 of Poland) has now been placed as "new" on the YFull haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/C1a/). Analysis of his BAM file is nowhere near complete, but these preliminary statistics have been released:

Private SNPs (all): 358
Best qual: 330 (92.18%) [282 (78.77%) - best; 48 (13.41%) - acceptable]
INDELs: 1 (0.28%)
Ambiguous qual: 21 (5.87%)
One read!: 0
Low qual: 6 (1.68%)

330 reliable (best- and acceptable-quality) SNPs, with each such SNP representing 140-150 years of patrilineage, equates to a TMRCA of 46-49 thousand years with the Japanese C1a1 (C-M8) clade.

DMXX
12-24-2014, 07:56 AM
Of the aDNA retrieved from South Siberian Kurgans (Keyser et al. 2009 (http://hamagmongol.narod.ru/library/keyser_2009_e.pdf)), all but one of them belonged to Y-DNA R1a1a.

The other (S07) belonged to a "C(xC3)". The STRs are below. It would be quite something if it matches the confirmed +V20.



Specimen DYS19 DYS385 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 YGATA Haplogroup
S07 15 12/13 14 30 22 9 12 14 14 10 11 19 15 16 22 11

lgmayka
12-24-2014, 09:21 AM
The other (S07) belonged to a "C(xC3)". The STRs are below. It would be quite something if it matches the confirmed +V20.



Specimen DYS19 DYS385 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 YGATA Haplogroup
S07 15 12/13 14 30 22 9 12 14 14 10 11 19 15 16 22 11

In FTDNA order:


14 22 15 9 12-13 x x 11 14 12 30 16 x x x x x 14 19 x x-x-x-x x 10 x-x 15 x x x x-x x 10

Frankly, I see no close matches in the yDNA C Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx?section=yresults).

lgmayka
01-06-2015, 02:07 AM
One member of C-V20 (kit 218881 of Poland) has now been placed as "new" on the YFull haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/C1a/). Analysis of his BAM file is nowhere near complete
Analysis of his BAM file is now complete. A couple dozen SNPs have been discarded, but the remaining number is still quite impressive:
Private SNPs (all): 331
Best qual: 312 (94.26%) [273 (82.48%) - best; 39 (11.78%) - acceptable]
INDELs: 0
Ambiguous qual: 18 (5.44%)
One read!: 0
Low qual: 1 (0.30%)

312 reliable private SNPs, at 140-150 years per SNP, equates to 44-47 thousand years since divergence from the Japanese C1a1.

A second C-V20 has just been submitted to YFull, and a third is waiting for his BAM file.

I have learned that three additional C-V20 men, with Western European surnames (Elliott, Coote, and Kisch), have Big Y results. I have sent them email suggesting that they submit their data to YFull, but I don't know whether any of them will do so.

lgmayka
01-11-2015, 03:20 PM
Two more C-V20 BAM files are now undergoing analysis at YFull. You can see them on YFull's C1a2 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/C1a2/).

Arame
04-21-2017, 08:10 AM
We have the first C1a2 V20 from Armenia.
And he recieved his Big Y.!

Wal
08-16-2017, 03:46 AM
So, Y-haplo C1a2 (C-V20) is a newly identified subclade. ISOGG lists it in the ISOGG 2015 tree and gives markers. My LivingDNA trest returned positive STR markers for C1a2, Thus:
C:M130/Page51/RPS4Y711,CTS6203,CTS2377,CTS6378,Z4083,F3043,P260/P324,F3719,F3400,F2897/V3600,M130/Page51/RPS4Y711,Z4082,F2858/V3553,F2211,CTS6266,Z4145/Z4147,F1911/V2823,F2774,CTS5383,CTS10534,F847,F917,Y6691,P255/P325,CTS5151,CTS4686,F2678,CTS8148,CTS7301/M3716/PF2705,Z18049.2,V77,F2446,CTS3221,CTS10083,CTS1114 9,M216,F1217/V2015,F2434,F1288/V2200,CTS5813,F3703 total=40
C1: F3393/Z1426 F3393/Z1426, CTS6773/CTS6773/M3987/M3987 total=2
C1a: CTS9491, CTS3454, Z4056, CTS8809 total=4
C1a2: V20 total=1

The question now is to discover how and when that HG entered the Scottish population from which I descend.

Wal
08-16-2017, 03:54 AM
Further, the "raw data" lists SNPs AM00847/AMM008/B65 and AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2 so I am wondering how that relates to C-V20 when AM00847/AMM008/B65 is a marker for C-B65? I have found no information about AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2 so any pointers may help me.

Wal
08-16-2017, 06:50 AM
Y-haplogropu C is well represented in Australia among the indigenous population. That is "south of Asia". Recent discoveries have dated human occupation in northern Australia (at Kakadu) at at least 65,000 years BP. Some of the artifacts recovered date to 80,000 years. While no DNA tests were made, the possibility of Hap. C being in Australia 65,000 years ago is possible. Hap C is found across Oceania and also in the Americas. Those ancient Hap. C folk travelled far.

I am also C-V20 (C1a2) and my paternal origins are from Scotland. So Hap. C folks must have been globe trotters.

The ISOGG gives the SNP markers for C as M130/Page51/RPS4Y711, M216; my results tested positive for ...
C:M130/Page51/RPS4Y711,CTS6203,CTS2377,CTS6378,Z4083,F3043,P260/P324,F3719,F3400,F2897/V3600,M130/Page51/RPS4Y711,Z4082,F2858/V3553,F2211,CTS6266,Z4145/Z4147,F1911/V2823,F2774,CTS5383,CTS10534,F847,F917,Y6691,P255/P325,CTS5151,CTS4686,F2678,CTS8148,CTS7301/M3716/PF2705,Z18049.2,V77,F2446,CTS3221,CTS10083,CTS1114 9,M216,F1217/V2015,F2434,F1288/V2200,CTS5813,F3703 total=40
C1: F3393/Z1426 F3393/Z1426, CTS6773/CTS6773/M3987/M3987 total=2
C1a: CTS9491, CTS3454, Z4056, CTS8809 total=4
C1a2: V20 total=1

Wal
08-16-2017, 07:16 AM
Until more data is available through more of the population being tested (living or ancient) speculation regarding Y-hg C is just that, speculation.
However, we can see from what is available now that C and its subclades are spread across Asia, Oceania, and the Americas by Stone Age hunters, Siberian reindeer herders, Mongolian horse nomads, Polynesian Sea Farers, Inuits, Iroquois, and Indigenous Australians. Ancient C is also reported from far spaced locations in Europe. Those travelers covered a lot of ground!

lgmayka
08-16-2017, 08:58 AM
I am also C-V20 (C1a2) and my paternal origins are from Scotland. So Hap. C folks must have been globe trotters.
YFull's C-V20 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/C-V20/) has entries from Armenia, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. The Armenian split off from the others over 20,000 years ago!

Ebizur
08-16-2017, 12:38 PM
YFull's C-V20 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/C-V20/) has entries from Armenia, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. The Armenian split off from the others over 20,000 years ago!This seems to be as good a time as any to bring up something that I have wondered about. Does the C-V20 individual in the Nepalese sample of Hallast et al. (2014) belong to the Armenian side or the European side of the split, or is it basal to both those branches?

Pylsteen
08-16-2017, 12:43 PM
Haplogroup C in Europe has been found in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic samples; it looks like it is from the first modern humans entering Europe. In time, it was largely replaced by other haplogroups; today it is only found at very low levels in Europe.

EDIT: How it then arrived in Scotland is a good question. If it was incorporated in new groups of people in the whole of Europe in the Neolithic, it could have arrived there anytime.

Ebizur
08-16-2017, 03:45 PM
By the way, the Nepalese sample to which I have referred is nep-0172 from Pille Hallast, Chiara Batini, Daniel Zadik, et al., "The Y-Chromosome Tree Bursts into Leaf: 13,000 High-Confidence SNPs Covering the Majority of Known Clades," Molecular Biology and Evolution Advance Access publication December 2, 2014, doi:10.1093/molbev/msu327.

Nep-0172 exhibits 135 SNPs downstream of his most recent common ancestor with JPT-NA18974, a Japanese individual who belongs to haplogroup C1a1-M8:

A2774169G C6703314G A6777351G A6800465C A6837378T G6845955A G6866303A A6885593G G6912691A T6913217A T6936443C C6970036T T6972117C G7079141C C7135929T A7136339G C7142695G T7202366G G7218549A G7246670A A7284672T A7314655G G7333017A G13871066T C13993511A C14117114T T14152879A C14159782A A14173091G G14186365A G14246351A A14293833G C14329101T A14335672G C14613786T A14774142G T14810634C A14930515G G14952137A T14971682G C15516397T A15585188G G15764570A A15852360G G15935624A T15948413G C15949403T A16017823G A16031440G G16061218T T16198378C T16281599C C16284836T T16336719C G16417930A A16740138T T16758905A C16776874G C16787023T T16803391G A16818150T A16819759G G16869270C A16912050G C16922171T C16956320T T16968690G C17072248T G17151659C A17177899G C17350338T G17366710A T17421307G G17486528A G17527878A G17527904C G17577534A T17745332A G17790910T G17817864A G17853558T C17880509G A17892594C C17905059T T17939651C A17941579G G17957440A A17961975C T18023403A G18026975T A18071404G T18160365A C18181289G C18246830T A18551564G G18575701A G18584981A G18642035A G18683495A C18692792T G18789012C G18821446A T18937968C A18961035T C19054703T A19183145G G19220674C G19240900T T19358615C G19397234A A19452372G T19454839A C19490323T A19504462T A19566911G T21086251G G21114604A G21202795A C21326357T A21359031C A21387821C T22175097A T22575586C C22616875T G22724232C G22738930A G22832625A C23118493A A23197102G G23208174A T23209087A G23291476A G23479393T A23482918G C23495487A

Lgmayka previously has noted that the MRCA of nep-0172 and extant European C1a2-V20 must have lived at some time deep in the Paleolithic era. My intuition is that this Nepalese individual's Y-DNA is probably basal to a branch that subsumes both Armenian C-V86*(xY10475) and European C-Y10475, but it would be nice if someone could confirm this.

Kale
08-16-2017, 05:58 PM
By the way, the Nepalese sample to which I have referred is nep-0172 from Pille Hallast, Chiara Batini, Daniel Zadik, et al., "The Y-Chromosome Tree Bursts into Leaf: 13,000 High-Confidence SNPs Covering the Majority of Known Clades," Molecular Biology and Evolution Advance Access publication December 2, 2014, doi:10.1093/molbev/msu327.

Nep-0172 exhibits 135 SNPs downstream of his most recent common ancestor with JPT-NA18974, a Japanese individual who belongs to haplogroup C1a1-M8:

A2774169G C6703314G A6777351G A6800465C A6837378T G6845955A G6866303A A6885593G G6912691A T6913217A T6936443C C6970036T T6972117C G7079141C C7135929T A7136339G C7142695G T7202366G G7218549A G7246670A A7284672T A7314655G G7333017A G13871066T C13993511A C14117114T T14152879A C14159782A A14173091G G14186365A G14246351A A14293833G C14329101T A14335672G C14613786T A14774142G T14810634C A14930515G G14952137A T14971682G C15516397T A15585188G G15764570A A15852360G G15935624A T15948413G C15949403T A16017823G A16031440G G16061218T T16198378C T16281599C C16284836T T16336719C G16417930A A16740138T T16758905A C16776874G C16787023T T16803391G A16818150T A16819759G G16869270C A16912050G C16922171T C16956320T T16968690G C17072248T G17151659C A17177899G C17350338T G17366710A T17421307G G17486528A G17527878A G17527904C G17577534A T17745332A G17790910T G17817864A G17853558T C17880509G A17892594C C17905059T T17939651C A17941579G G17957440A A17961975C T18023403A G18026975T A18071404G T18160365A C18181289G C18246830T A18551564G G18575701A G18584981A G18642035A G18683495A C18692792T G18789012C G18821446A T18937968C A18961035T C19054703T A19183145G G19220674C G19240900T T19358615C G19397234A A19452372G T19454839A C19490323T A19504462T A19566911G T21086251G G21114604A G21202795A C21326357T A21359031C A21387821C T22175097A T22575586C C22616875T G22724232C G22738930A G22832625A C23118493A A23197102G G23208174A T23209087A G23291476A G23479393T A23482918G C23495487A

Lgmayka previously has noted that the MRCA of nep-0172 and extant European C1a2-V20 must have lived at some time deep in the Paleolithic era. My intuition is that this Nepalese individual's Y-DNA is probably basal to a branch that subsumes both Armenian C-V86*(xY10475) and European C-Y10475, but it would be nice if someone could confirm this.

I don't remember the source; but I heard of a Nepalese C1a2 separating from European C1a2 37,200 years ago.

Ebizur
08-16-2017, 07:55 PM
I don't remember the source; but I heard of a Nepalese C1a2 separating from European C1a2 37,200 years ago.Perhaps I might even be the ultimate source of that estimate, but it has been several years now since I last considered this question in detail.

The YFull YTree v5.05 has an estimated TMRCA for C1a1-M8 and C1a2-V20 of 46,800 ybp. The TMRCA of Armenian and European C-V86 and the Y-DNA of the La Braņa 1 specimen from what is now northwestern Spain is estimated to be 42,500 ybp. The TMRCA of Armenian C-V86*(xY10475) and European C-Y10475 is estimated to be 21,400 ybp. I think the TMRCA of the Nepalese C1a2 and European/Armenian C-V86 should be near the TMRCA of La Braņa 1's Y-DNA and C-V86, but it would be interesting to know precisely the phylogenetic relationships among them. After all, there is a possibility that the extant Nepalese C1a2 may form a clade with the Y-DNA of the La Braņa 1 specimen as opposed to the C-V86 clade represented by extant Europeans and an Armenian.

mangumheel
08-16-2017, 08:52 PM
Wal,

Can you list your surname and region in Scotland of your ancestry? So far, to my knowledge, persons of Scottish ancestry with the following surnames have tested positive for C-V20: Aitcheson, Elliott, Gunn, Moffatt, and Thompson/Thomson. The ancestry of most, if not all are from southwestern Scotland near the Borders.

Wal
08-21-2017, 01:11 AM
Thanks 'Mangumheel'.

I have none of those surnames in my ancestry. The oldest known Anderson in the paternal line (and hence supposedly of the same Haplogroup C1a2 (V20) is my 6x great-grandfather, James Anderson, born about 1690; died after 11/5/1761). James Anderson was probably living in Kirkgunzeon or near districts of Kirkcudbrightshire, so the Anderson were also of the southwestern, border lands. I was hoping that the Andersons of Kirkgunzeon and Dumfries may be connected to the Anderson of Stobcross but so far no connection has been made.

mangumheel
08-24-2017, 03:12 PM
Kirkgunzeon is where the Thompsons and Moffatts lived in the 1600s, and later. Anderson was likely a member of the same y lineage, prior to the adoption of surnames. My wife's line is the Thompson/Thomson line. I think it would be a good idea to order a Y-DNA test so that your Y matches can be shown, and you will know your Y-STR marker results. Family Tree DNA offers this test (37 marker or 67 marker would be sufficient.) They are having a sale through the end of this month, so the timing would be good if you are interested.

Wal
08-27-2017, 09:21 AM
As AM00847/AMM008/B65 is the identifying SNP for C1b1a2, and my LivingDNA test results showed 47 SNPs positive for V-20, I questioned the result. In good time they amended the assignment to C-V20, albeit with the original AM00847/AMM008/B65 still being shown in the "raw data" and enshrined in their printed booklet, thus perpetuating a confusing result. I pointed that out and so far have no reply.

mangumheel
08-28-2017, 02:58 PM
Wal, You might wish to consider Y-DNA testing, which would show your y chromosome matches, and then join the Haplogroup C DNA Project . Family Tree DNA offers y chromosome testing.)

Wal
09-01-2017, 02:29 AM
A reply came from the Living DNA Help desk acknowledging the concern and offering a reprint of the booklet with corrected material.
Living DNA tests Y DNA.

Wal
09-11-2017, 02:09 AM
A reply came from the Living DNA Help desk acknowledging the concern and offering a reprint of the booklet with corrected material.
Living DNA tests Y DNA.

Living DNA amended its online report to show the Haplogroup as C1 subclade C-V20. The report mentions recent, selected discoveries of C in ancient Europe (in a few brief sentences) and gives most of its commentary to C1b (which does not contain C-V20) and migration to Australia, giving up to date dating for arrival in Australia 65,000 ybp. While the commentary purports to be a "full" exploration, very little of it applies to my history whose Scottish ancestors arrived in Australia 162 ybp. Overall, I am very disappointed with their reporting.

Ebizur
04-03-2018, 12:20 PM
Judging from the most recent updates to the Family Tree DNA Haplogroup C Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx), ISOGG 2018 Y-DNA Haplogroup C and its Subclades (https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpC.html), and YFull Haplogroup YTree v6.02 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-Y11591/), the previously known Algerian (with origin reported to be from Tizi Ouzou Province in the center of the region inhabited primarily by Kabyle Berbers) and Armenian (with origin reported to be from Julfa, Iran, just across the international border from Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic) members of haplogroup C1a2-V20 now have been confirmed to belong to a particular subclade, which has been named C1a2b by ISOGG and which is deeply divergent from the C1a2a-V182 found in modern Europeans. YFull v6.02 estimates that European C1a2a-V182 and Armenian/Algerian C1a2b-Z38888 share a most recent common ancestor approximately 21,900 [95% CI 19,700 <-> 24,100] years before present. An estimated TMRCA of the Armenian member and the Algerian member of C1a2b-Z38888 has not yet been published by YFull. It appears that the phylogenetic position of the Y-DNA of a Nepalese member (nep-0172) of haplogroup C1a2-V20 (cf. Hallast et al. 2014, "The Y-Chromosome Tree Bursts into Leaf: 13,000 High-Confidence SNPs Covering the Majority of Known Clades") vis-ā-vis C1a2a-V182 and C1a2b-Z38888 also remains undetermined.

Squad
04-05-2018, 09:27 PM
Judging from the most recent updates to the Family Tree DNA Haplogroup C Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/default.aspx), ISOGG 2018 Y-DNA Haplogroup C and its Subclades (https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpC.html), and YFull Haplogroup YTree v6.02 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-Y11591/), the previously known Algerian (with origin reported to be from Tizi Ouzou Province in the center of the region inhabited primarily by Kabyle Berbers) and Armenian (with origin reported to be from Julfa, Iran, just across the international border from Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic) members of haplogroup C1a2-V20 now have been confirmed to belong to a particular subclade, which has been named C1a2b by ISOGG and which is deeply divergent from the C1a2a-V182 found in modern Europeans. YFull v6.02 estimates that European C1a2a-V182 and Armenian/Algerian C1a2b-Z38888 share a most recent common ancestor approximately 21,900 [95% CI 19,700 <-> 24,100] years before present. An estimated TMRCA of the Armenian member and the Algerian member of C1a2b-Z38888 has not yet been published by YFull. It appears that the phylogenetic position of the Y-DNA of a Nepalese member (nep-0172) of haplogroup C1a2-V20 (cf. Hallast et al. 2014, "The Y-Chromosome Tree Bursts into Leaf: 13,000 High-Confidence SNPs Covering the Majority of Known Clades") vis-ā-vis C1a2a-V182 and C1a2b-Z38888 also remains undetermined.

I knew about this since 2015, hence why I recently wrote this on the thread about the iberomaurusian study :

Yes, essentially Haplogroup A and B are signature of the various paleo-african people from northwest Africa to the very south of the continent. They were a very diverse bunch as shown by the structure of both A and B and of course their mtDNA counterparts. We know that Negroes (West Africans) are intermediate between Eurasians and Paleo-Africans and this is because of their neo-african ancestry. They would probably be back migrants from Arabia after separation from their relatives haplogroup pre-D, pre-C and pre-F along with mtDNA pre-M and pre-N (and probably more extinct lines on both sides). Some of them went to the west and others to the north so they mixed with the previous people from both places. In northern Africa were probably living some WHG-like people from the Near-East, these people were eurasian and their females got absorbed by the incoming Neo-Africans, this is why their mtDNA lines survived. Their Y-DNA is unknown but could have been some kind of IJ or C1 probably. I've discovered that C-V20 still exists in North Africa today and separated from european C-V20 many thousand years ago. I'm tempted to link haplogroup C1 with mtDNA M1 as we know some extinct M lines were found in a few paleolithic european remains.

Being under Z3888, this would almost confirms my theory about an ancient middle-eastern population which is responsible for the WHG-like signal among the Natufians.

ffffffffff00
06-12-2020, 10:05 PM
Bump and hello, my brother and I were assigned Z30466 a few months ago, I’m looking to see how accurate this broad outline timeline here is:

- V86 was in Central Europe around 30,000 years ago in a population related in some way to Sunghir and Kostenki populations. V86 might come from an earlier V20 individual in Central Europe or maybe from a V20 individual to the east (or elsewhere).
- From there it looks like it probably forked into SE or the ballpark of Southern Europe and Anatolia and North Africa.
- From those ballparks some V86s either re-entered/entered Europe with farming populations during the neolithic, or expanded along with farmers but from SE or central Europe or the general Southern European ballpark. V222 in particular looks like it definitely moved along with farming populations.
- After 4,000 years ago, Y12152, which I’m assuming was somewhere in the vicinity of eastern central Europe from the looks of it, got caught up in some kind of mobile crowd and sprayed out in all sorts of directions, including toward Greece which is where our great grandpa was from.

Does this look right or rightish? Many leaps here. Also, 23&Me is saying Z30466 has been found among 1 in 23,000 of its customers. Unless I'm misunderstanding something and that applies to all Cs or C1a2s they've identified, it seems like there might be a nice little slew of us out there.

alchemist223
06-12-2020, 10:13 PM
Wow! You have an extremely rare haplogroup. Have you or your brother gotten a Big Y test? That could help learn a lot more about your subclade.

alchemist223
06-12-2020, 10:20 PM
Bump and hello, my brother and I were assigned Z30466 a few months ago, I’m looking to see how accurate this broad outline timeline here is:

- V86 was in Central Europe around 30,000 years ago in a population related in some way to Sunghir and Kostenki populations. V86 might come from an earlier V20 individual in Central Europe or maybe from a V20 individual to the east (or elsewhere).
- From there it looks like it probably forked into SE or the ballpark of Southern Europe and Anatolia and North Africa.
- From those ballparks some V86s either re-entered/entered Europe with farming populations during the neolithic, or expanded along with farmers but from SE or central Europe or the general Southern European ballpark. V222 in particular looks like it definitely moved along with farming populations.
- After 4,000 years ago, Y12152, which I’m assuming was somewhere in the vicinity of eastern central Europe from the looks of it, got caught up in some kind of mobile crowd and sprayed out in all sorts of directions, including toward Greece which is where our great grandpa was from.

Does this look right or rightish? Many leaps here. Also, 23&Me is saying Z30466 has been found among 1 in 23,000 of its customers. Unless I'm misunderstanding something and that applies to all Cs or C1a2s they've identified, it seems like there might be a nice little slew of us out there.

This is quite plausible, a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer (11,000 years ago) from Pinarbasi in Konya Province, Turkey tested positive for C-V20. Here is some more information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hunter-gatherers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narba%C5%9F%C4%B1_G%C3%B6l%C3%BC
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09209-7

ffffffffff00
06-12-2020, 10:30 PM
We haven't yet, no, plan to though. Was pointed to YSeq a while back and have learned we're on the same branch as the Greek fellow who's been tested. Or at least we have one mutation that the Greek line has that the Ukranian one doesn't.

alchemist223
06-12-2020, 10:34 PM
However, the Anatolian hunter-gatherer appears to belong to a different subclade from your family, being C1a2-V20>V86 >pre-F16270 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F16270/)

ffffffffff00
06-12-2020, 10:42 PM
However, the Anatolian hunter-gatherer appears to belong to a different subclade from your family, being C1a2-V20>V86 >pre-F16270 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F16270/)

Yeah, could still be that our clade was there too though I think, I have no idea. What I've been picturing is some V86-carrying group of partly Vestonice cluster descended people hugging probably SE Europe, and some of them made their way farther east and some maybe didn't, then the weather got better and farming was introduced and there was a nice mini european C expansion.

alchemist223
06-12-2020, 10:46 PM
Yes, I would still assume that most of the C-V20 subclades were hanging around in that area. Although some made it as far west as Spain, being found in a 7,000 year old hunter-gatherer at La Braņa-Arintero (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12960) in Asturias, Spain. However, this haplogroup seems to have been sparse among Western European hunter-gatherers, as it has not appeared outside this sample to my knowledge. However, it most definitely appeared among the first farmers in Europe, who originally migrated from Anatolia.

ffffffffff00
07-04-2020, 04:51 PM
"V222 in particular looks like it definitely moved along with farming populations." Not sure where I got that V222 in particular. Also the North Africa fork looks like it could have happened more recently (relatively), and I shouldn't assume V86 was exclusively around Vestonice. Also 23&Me has probably found more C's than .004%. bump

ffffffffff00
02-21-2021, 05:41 AM
It looks like Yfull has a new sample from a Turkish fellow who's directly upstream from V222. I think my money's on the V182 branch being siblings with the AHG/Pinarbasi branches now, maybe part of the same migration into Anatolia around the Mesolithic or maybe they'd been there longer.

Maybe V86 was centered more in Anatolia or around the Black Sea or in despite Vestonice16 (I've also seen him listed as IJK). I'm guessing there was probably a decent amount of traffic to and from and back and forth from SE Europe and Anatolia as well, to the best of my understanding and memory maybe there weren't many or even any people living in Anatolia directly before the Mesolithic though. But then apparently there's the Dzudzuana AHG connection. But that might not involve V86. I'm becoming weaker as I type. I also wonder now if some of the F16270 branch was more WHG-focused and entered N Africa from let's say Spain, I think I saw a thread on R1b-V88 that mentioned a movement like this, losing track of threads here.

alchemist223
02-22-2021, 02:27 AM
It looks like Yfull has a new sample from a Turkish fellow who's directly upstream from V222. I think my money's on the V182 branch being siblings with the AHG/Pinarbasi branches now, maybe part of the same migration into Anatolia around the Mesolithic or maybe they'd been there longer.

Maybe V86 was centered more in Anatolia or around the Black Sea or in despite Vestonice16 (I've also seen him listed as IJK). I'm guessing there was probably a decent amount of traffic to and from and back and forth from SE Europe and Anatolia as well, to the best of my understanding and memory maybe there weren't many or even any people living in Anatolia directly before the Mesolithic though. But then apparently there's the Dzudzuana AHG connection. But that might not involve V86. I'm becoming weaker as I type. I also wonder now if some of the F16270 branch was more WHG-focused and entered N Africa from let's say Spain, I think I saw a thread on R1b-V88 that mentioned a movement like this, losing track of threads here.

I believe that sample is actually from an ethnic Pontic Greek.

ffffffffff00
02-22-2021, 03:47 AM
Ah, interesting, alright. I'm throwing my hands back up till more samples and old C's are found I think for now.