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View Full Version : FTDNA Backbone R1b and implications for L2



Kwheaton
07-29-2015, 02:31 PM
I posted all the SNPS over on the U152 forum and this is good news for expanding the L2 tree---however it is odd which SNPS downstream of L2 are included and which are left out. I am thrilled to see our WHEATON, TRIPP, KIDD, DOOTZ SNP FGC22501 included but I feel bad for some of he SNPS not included: ie L562, FGC22963, Z150 etc.

I do think this may be a way to get some of the U152 members to do some further refining though.
Kelly

lgmayka
07-29-2015, 03:04 PM
For a Central-Eastern European who is L2+ Z49- Z367- (e.g., #133147 of the Czech Republic), the test looks not to be worth the money, because it does not include the ancient and mysterious S14469/FGC4183 clade (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/).

razyn
07-29-2015, 03:22 PM
Deleted. Moved here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5027-R1b-M343-Backbone-SNP-Pack-FTDNA&p=98698#post98698

R.Rocca
07-29-2015, 03:27 PM
This backbone test is primarily for those that were previously M269 predicted. If someone is already known to be U152, then this is not the right test for them. A U152 specific backbone has been discussed, but nothing is in the works.

mafe
07-29-2015, 03:38 PM
This backbone test is primarily for those that were previously M269 predicted. If someone is already known to be U152, then this is not the right test for them. A U152 specific backbone has been discussed, but nothing is in the works.

I think this is a good alternative for people who are known U152+ but are looking for their subclade immediately downstream of U152, from what I have seen it includes 7 subclades (L2, Z36, Z56, A274, A517, A1773 and PF6658), although the last one is a bit problematic.

Dubhthach
07-29-2015, 03:45 PM
I've put warning on the Ireland yDNA forum page (pinned) advising that test was more aimed towards those predicted as R-M269 and for anyone else considering it to contact the project admin's first. We've seen at least 15 orders so far, some of whom have already done SNP testing (including one M222 bundle individual!!!!) and at least one L2+

-Paul

Kwheaton
07-29-2015, 06:45 PM
I myself would test at YSEQ and FGC but I cannot deny that the Big Y gave us our closest match to date and some may benefit from the R1b backbone---again it is a case of buyer beware.

Its really random what was included and what wasn't---and FGC22501 which was included is 98% X so can't quite understand its inclusion----

Does anyone know who is doing the Y research at FTDNA these days?

R.Rocca
07-29-2015, 08:29 PM
This backbone test is primarily for those that were previously M269 predicted. If someone is already known to be U152, then this is not the right test for them. A U152 specific backbone has been discussed, but nothing is in the works.

By the way, I should have been more specific in my post...if you only now you are U152+, then this may not be the best test for you. However, for someone who is just L2+, then this test is as as good a value as you are going to get. Of L2's known subclades, a whopping 14 of 18 are included:

Z49, Z367, DF90, DF103, FGC5336, CTS5689, S1567, S18827, DF110, BY2823, FGC13620, FGC22501, A6454, FGC5301

Of the four that are missing, two are testable (L199 & FGC10543) and the other two are somewhat new and do not yet have an SNP named assigned to them.

mafe
07-29-2015, 08:56 PM
By the way, I should have been more specific in my post...if you only now you are U152+, then this may not be the best test for you. However, for someone who is just L2+, then this test is as as good a value as you are going to get. Of L2's known subclades, a whopping 14 of 18 are included:

Z49, Z367, DF90, DF103, FGC5336, CTS5689, S1567, S18827, DF110, BY2823, FGC13620, FGC22501, A6454, FGC5301

Of the four that are missing, two are testable (L199 & FGC10543) and the other two are somewhat new and do not yet have an SNP named assigned to them.

What is the best test in this price range then? This test is clearly aimed at people who were (or are) going to order individual SNPs. In an ideal world everyone will order a NGS-test but in my opinion this test has good value for money when you are U152+ and are trying to take small steps.

This panel also has 4 subclades that could be of interest to the former U152*-group. As a former U152*, who participated in Big-Y, I am "patiently" waiting for new SNP matches and interested in seeing how the U152*-group will split up. The rare subclade I belong to is included on this panel and it is frustrating to see that this test is so easily dismissed, frankly it pissed me off, it would be a great way to clear out the everlasting and ever growing "U152>?" groups and also make some bigger steps along the way.

haleaton
07-29-2015, 09:03 PM
By the way, I should have been more specific in my post...if you only now you are U152+, then this may not be the best test for you. However, for someone who is just L2+, then this test is as as good a value as you are going to get. Of L2's known subclades, a whopping 14 of 18 are included:

Z49, Z367, DF90, DF103, FGC5336, CTS5689, S1567, S18827, DF110, BY2823, FGC13620, FGC22501, A6454, FGC5301

Of the four that are missing, two are testable (L199 & FGC10543) and the other two are somewhat new and do not yet have an SNP named assigned to them.

The list I have says they do test FGC10516. Isn't this equivalent to FGC10543? Or are there some issues with it.

[Edit: I think 14/18 is right by A6454 is on FTDNA list but may be typo here as YBrowse days is is under DF13]

[Edit Also on list is L408 which is under L199.]

lgmayka
07-29-2015, 09:48 PM
However, for someone who is just L2+, then this test is as as good a value as you are going to get. Of L2's known subclades, a whopping 14 of 18 are included:

Z49, Z367, DF90, DF103, FGC5336, CTS5689, S1567, S18827, DF110, BY2823, FGC13620, FGC22501, A6454, FGC5301

Of the four that are missing, two are testable (L199 & FGC10543) and the other two are somewhat new and do not yet have an SNP named assigned to them.
As I mentioned in a previous post, this SNP pack does not include the ancient and mysterious S14469 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/).

EDIT: This U152 tree (http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chromosome_U152_Samples.xlsx) asserts that S14469/FGC4183 is phylogenetically equivalent to DF103, which is reportedly included in the new SNP pack. DF103 is a deletion. I think that YFull does not ordinarily use deletions in its analysis.

Kwheaton
07-29-2015, 09:48 PM
What is the best test in this price range then? This test is clearly aimed at people who were (or are) going to order individual SNPs. In an ideal world everyone will order a NGS-test but in my opinion this test has good value for money when you are U152+ and are trying to take small steps.

This panel also has 4 subclades that could be of interest to the former U152*-group. As a former U152*, who participated in Big-Y, I am "patiently" waiting for new SNP matches and interested in seeing how the U152*-group will split up. The rare subclade I belong to is included on this panel and it is frustrating to see that this test is so easily dismissed, frankly it pissed me off, it would be a great way to clear out the everlasting and ever growing "U152>?" groups and also make some bigger steps along the way.

Its a mixed bag.....good if it brings in more L2 and downstream testers--- bad in that it may not be the most cost effective way to do so....it does seem though that FTDNA's marketing seems to be effective so I will take them however we can get them. Rich I sent you an email with the new SNPS avaliable at YSEQ.org. $17.50 is as good as it gets....and I would love if a few of the 9 previously identified would test. I feel that there is a likely geographic indication in the NW Rhine region...

Wing Genealogist
07-29-2015, 11:40 PM
I myself would test at YSEQ and FGC but I cannot deny that the Big Y gave us our closest match to date and some may benefit from the R1b backbone---again it is a case of buyer beware.

Its really random what was included and what wasn't---and FGC22501 which was included is 98% X so can't quite understand its inclusion----

Does anyone know who is doing the Y research at FTDNA these days?

Some SNPs are not available on the Deep Clade packs simply because they failed in the development process to make it testable. Every type of testing has SNPs which are difficult for them to handle (Sanger Sequencing is impossible for quite a few NGS SNPs and some Sanger Sequence SNPs are not found in the Big Y).

In addition, even when a SNP makes it into a SNP pack, there is no guarantee the SNP would work properly. The only way to know which SNPs work, and which SNPs fail is to run a batch of tests.

R.Rocca
07-30-2015, 12:15 AM
I think this is a good alternative for people who are known U152+ but are looking for their subclade immediately downstream of U152, from what I have seen it includes 7 subclades (L2, Z36, Z56, A274, A517, A1773 and PF6658), although the last one is a bit problematic.

@mafe, thanks for pointing out A274, A517 and A1773. I still had their positions showing on the U152 tree and not their YFull names, so I completely overlooked them.

That does change things quite a bit...aside from folks that are simply L2, this test does look like it has good value for those that are U152*.

R.Rocca
07-30-2015, 12:18 AM
The list I have says they do test FGC10516. Isn't this equivalent to FGC10543? Or are there some issues with it.

[Edit: I think 14/18 is right by A6454 is on FTDNA list but may be typo here as YBrowse days is is under DF13]

[Edit Also on list is L408 which is under L199.]

Of course I completely skimmed through my own subclade...you are right, FGC10516 is in the same subclade as FGC10543, so it is 15/18. A6454 is also in L2 and is reliable.

haleaton
07-30-2015, 12:29 AM
As I mentioned in a previous post, this SNP pack does not include the ancient and mysterious S14469 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/).

EDIT: This U152 tree (http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chromosome_U152_Samples.xlsx) asserts that S14469/FGC4183 is phylogenetically equivalent to DF103, which is reportedly included in the new SNP pack. DF103 is a deletion. I think that YFull does not ordinarily use deletions in its analysis.

Of the four YFull S14469+ samples, YF03106, YF03493, YF01424 (Bartold b.1350 d. 1420 Poland), YF03457, Bartold was identifiable as in the U152 FTDNA Group tree as DF103.

YF01310 was a member of the U152 YFull Group, though, and using the YFull Browser function it did show that location 9020396 (DF103) was followed by TAGA>del, however they don't flag INDELS. 1KG-HG00152 is also in their sample also was noted but was flagged as ambigous as there were two del reads for one TAGA read. 1KG-HG00152 was also a nocall for L2 so YFull classifies it as U152. I did not check the other DF103 downstream SNPS.

haleaton
07-30-2015, 12:52 AM
Of course I completely skimmed through my own subclade...you are right, FGC10516 is in the same subclade as FGC10543, so it is 15/18. A6454 is also in L2 and is reliable.

A6454 6707762(G/A) is under L2 in YBrowse, I was wrong--maybe dyslexia. And is part of the new test.

So it is actually 16/18. If you include L408. After so many no calls or BED elimination in Big Y, L2 finally gets a big break

EDIT: Or maybe 15.5/18 as there is one L199+ L408- based on tree . . .

mafe
07-30-2015, 07:51 AM
What about: BY2895, BY2896, BY2823, BY2868, BY575 ? Any information on these SNPs?

ballardgen
07-30-2015, 08:41 AM
Useful test, Its such a shame that the 4 main SNP's under CTS4528 were not included in this new R1b backbone panel, this would have made a massive difference to the expansion of my project if the following could have been added - S11481, S14328, S1211, S6868

Kwheaton
07-30-2015, 12:49 PM
Hal,

L2 finally gets a break

I guess that was my original point. It isn't perfect and was not meant as a terminal SNP diviner. But considering what we got from Geno 2 I was surprsied at how much was included at a decent price. Not particularly helpful for those who have done NGS but if we can get a slew of those folks in the U152 project (who haven't) to test we may actually get more company in at leats some of our branches....


For your particular subclade a few individual YSEQ SNPS may be a better value but to help sift the masses into finer categories this may be a decent offering from FTDNA (aside from the SNPS with ambigous calls which one would have hoped they hadn't included).

haleaton
07-30-2015, 01:06 PM
What about: BY2895, BY2896, BY2823, BY2868, BY575 ? Any information on these SNPs?

BY2868 & BY575 are below DF13 of R-L21 according to YBrowse.

However BY2895 & BY2896 are not in YBrowse, the ISOGG SNP Index (which is constantly being updated with BY SNPs lately), the YFull database, nor are the SNPs available at YSEQ.

Anybody know definitions of BY2895 & BY2896?

EDIT: "BY" SNPs would have been found in Big Y and named by FTDNA, so there is chance they might be the two L2 branches that did not have named SNPs.

Webb
07-30-2015, 01:27 PM
Mike, I think that so far this appears as a good start. I completely understand what is trying to be accomplished. The goal is to offer a very good test for people who are either R1b or M269. A test that will eliminate a large amount of guesswork. I am a little disappointed about DF27, however, sanger sequencing is the only way to test for this right now through FTDNA. So all of the main branches, and for the larger clades maybe several defining branches just below the main clade is a good idea. After that, hopefully, the testees will join the appropriate projects, and be guided by admins. futher down their repsective branches. I think Razyn brings up a valid point as well. If DF27 is unable to be tested for, then this branch might need a few extra branch defining snps. I think that if someone who is unkowingly DF27 positive, yet Z196 negative, uses this product, they might feel it was a waste of time and money, because if they come back just P312, they will have to turn around and spend more money on a DF27 snp test. Just my two cents.

mafe
07-30-2015, 03:26 PM
BY2868 & BY575 are below DF13 of R-L21 according to YBrowse.

However BY2895 & BY2896 are not in YBrowse, the ISOGG SNP Index (which is constantly being updated with BY SNPs lately), the YFull database, nor are the SNPs available at YSEQ.

Anybody know definitions of BY2895 & BY2896?

EDIT: "BY" SNPs would have been found in Big Y and named by FTDNA, so there is chance they might be the two L2 branches that did not have named SNPs.

BY2823 is available at YSEQ and is downstream of L2+ http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11047

EDIT: BY2823 is a known one.

lamahorse
07-31-2015, 07:22 PM
So I take it that it's not worth buying this for someone U152*, L2-?

R.Rocca
07-31-2015, 07:55 PM
So I take it that it's not worth buying this for someone U152*, L2-?

have you tested Z36 and Z56? Also, PF6658 seems to be neck and neck for most frequent after L2 and it cannot be ordered standalone. So, it may be that this is a good value. The risk of course is that you come out Z36 which would have just cost you $39 otherwise.

paulgill
07-31-2015, 08:05 PM
have you tested Z36 and Z56? Also, PF6658 seems to be neck and neck for most frequent after L2 and it cannot be ordered standalone. So, it may be that this is a good value. The risk of course is that you come out Z36 which would have just cost you $39 otherwise.

Same at YSEQ for only $17.50

haleaton
09-03-2015, 02:40 PM
Noted that L408 was added to the FTDNA Haplotree after a Backbone test result came back positive as was with DF103 & DF110.

They also had L408 for me as an "add" SNP to buy on individual orders though I tested negative on Big Y.

Kwheaton
09-03-2015, 07:20 PM
Any positive results for FGC22501?
It would be nice but not holding my breath.:rolleyes:

R.Rocca
09-03-2015, 07:39 PM
Any positive results for FGC22501?
It would be nice but not holding my breath.:rolleyes:

All negative results thus far, but on a bright note, it didn't get dropped off the panel, so it is likely working.

haleaton
09-03-2015, 08:47 PM
All negative results thus far, but on a bright note, it didn't get dropped off the panel, so it is likely working.

(Over 100 negatives listed on the R1b project, so far.)

I have heard that about SNPs being added or dropped. Is there a case where they actually they actually added something to a SNP Pack after they started selling it? Be nice to know, for U152 SNP Pack.

I did just notice that SNP Packs being sold are now listed under individual orders and you can click and it lists the SNPs being tested. There is the philosophy that something is "tested" for even if there are no results.

BalkanKiwi
09-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Mike, I think that so far this appears as a good start. I completely understand what is trying to be accomplished. The goal is to offer a very good test for people who are either R1b or M269. A test that will eliminate a large amount of guesswork. I am a little disappointed about DF27, however, sanger sequencing is the only way to test for this right now through FTDNA. So all of the main branches, and for the larger clades maybe several defining branches just below the main clade is a good idea. After that, hopefully, the testees will join the appropriate projects, and be guided by admins. futher down their repsective branches. I think Razyn brings up a valid point as well. If DF27 is unable to be tested for, then this branch might need a few extra branch defining snps. I think that if someone who is unkowingly DF27 positive, yet Z196 negative, uses this product, they might feel it was a waste of time and money, because if they come back just P312, they will have to turn around and spend more money on a DF27 snp test. Just my two cents.

I'm an example of this. I ordered a DF27 test at YSEQ at the same time as I ordered the Backbone Pack. I came back DF27+ at YSEQ but I'm only P312 with the pack, so I assume I don't fit into any of the DF27 SNPs in the pack.

Kwheaton
09-04-2015, 01:15 AM
All negative results thus far, but on a bright note, it didn't get dropped off the panel, so it is likely working.

Thanks Rich. I hope you are right (that it is working). :)

WOLFF éric
10-29-2015, 10:06 AM
Halli-hallo,

I´m DF13+ from Alsace-Lorraine terminal snp´s Y14240/FGC35995 and Y14049/FGC35995 informations about these snp´s,R-M269 iberian perhaps ? :amen: