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ljiljanm
07-30-2015, 09:03 PM
http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=22784&subid=2&pubid=64225380

Does anybody know anything more? When could we expect the results?

Jean M
07-30-2015, 09:15 PM
Certainly is interesting:

Farmers of Macedonia before 5500 years


The village residents of the Bronze Age (2500 BC-1850 BC) Xeropigado Valley Kozani were lactose intolerant and therefore could not digest milk. Moreover they had brown eyes and dark skin. The new data is revealed by DNA analysis of skeletal remains found in the Bronze Age cemetery, one of the few of this period investigated systematically in ​​the Macedonian region.

Ancient DNA opens a new window on archaeological research and analysis provides valuable data, such as that from the Xeropigado cemetery spanning 1,500 square meters, which retained 214 graves and "hosted" 22 dead. More will be known at a workshop organized in the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki, on Thursday (30/7), at the exhibition entitled "Ancient DNA. Window to the past and the future ", which will last until May 2016. ...

An equally important finding for Greece is the recovery of entire genomes of three prehistoric farmers who lived in northern Greece 7500-5500 thousand years ago. These farmers were from Neolithic settlements in Paliampela Kolindrou and Revenia Korinou Pieria and the Kleitos Kozanis.

rms2
07-30-2015, 09:19 PM
I agree. That is definitely one to look forward to. I hope they publish the dna testing results soon.

Jean M
07-30-2015, 09:26 PM
Does anybody know anything more? When could we expect the results?

Looks like two related papers were read today at the inaugural conference for the exhibition: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&ie=UTF-8&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amth.gr%2Fen

Krefter
07-30-2015, 09:35 PM
Google translation of the Greek article(See here (http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=22784&subid=2&pubid=64225380)). Can someone who is fluent in Greek look in the Greek media for more information on this Ancient DNA?


RESEARCH ON DNA 5.500 YEARS
Farmers of Macedonia before 5500 years

Lactose intolerance were the village residents of the Bronze Age (2500 BC - 1850 BC ) to position Xeropigado Valley Kozani and therefore could not digest milk.

Moreover they had brown eyes and dark skin. The new data revealed DNA analysis of skeletal remains found in the cemetery of the Bronze Age , one of the few such periods were investigated systematically in the area of Macedonia.

The ancient DNA opens a new window on archaeological research and analysis provides valuable data , such as those in the cemetery Xeropigado spanning 1,500 square meters , retained 214 graves and " hosted " 22 dead. More will be known at a workshop organized in the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki , on Thursday ( 30/7 ) , at the exhibition entitled " Ancient DNA. Window to the past and the future " , which will last until May 2016 .

the data

Distinguished palaiogenetistes from around the world will give complementary information and details on the collection of data and the responses to the DNA in a series of issues.

" The analysis of ancient DNA gives us the morphological characteristics, pathologies , the functioning of the body and movements of the population of ancient human ," explains the " Nation ", the assistant professor of Physical Anthropology in the Department of History and Ethnology , Democritus University of Thrace scientific responsible of the workshop , Christina Papageorgopoulou. An equally important finding for Greece is the recovery of entire genomes of three prehistoric farmers who lived in northern Greece 7500-5500 thousand years ago . These farmers from Neolithic settlements in Paliampela Kolindrou and Revenia Korinou Pieria and the Kleitos Kozanis so scientists have now concentrated their whole DNA."

" These data are analyzed and will certainly shed light on the ancestral relationships of the first Europeans and provide a wealth of information related to functional and morphological characteristics ," noted Ms . Papageorgopoulou. The ancient DNA is any amount of DNA that can be recovered from dead organisms skeletons , mummies , prehistoric remains and extinct animals . Through complex and time-consuming laboratory analyzes reconstructed biological history and evolution of ancient and modern populations , humans and animals.

By studying the scientists can now understand the genetic relationship of modern humans with extinct species of the genus Homo, such as Neanderthals , seek answers to questions such as the introduction of the Neolithic way of production , to study the evolution of morphological characteristics , to determine the degree of relatedness among ancient skeletons to certify the existence of pathologies and longitudinal study on the development of diseases."

"We can reconstruct a real biography of prehistoric people ," say the scientists .

RICH VISUAL MATERIAL

The exhibition " Ancient DNA. Window on the Past and Future " introduces the visitor in a simple and concise manner , without compromising the scientific validity , the study of ancient DNA and its results. With concise way shows all successive stages of palaiogenetikis investigation, ie the collection and sampling of the material, the laboratory analysis , processing and interpretation of data , as well as all categories of results that may be offered.

It also includes rich visual material, film projection and display of objects used in the laboratory in the process of analysis of ancient DNA. The material is framed by ancient objects discovered during archaeological investigations in the same places in northern Greece from which comes the skeletal material underlying the research of the Democritus University of Thrace ."

thrax
07-30-2015, 09:49 PM
Google translation of the Greek article(See here (http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=22784&subid=2&pubid=64225380)). Can someone who is fluent in Greek look in the Greek media for more information on this Ancient DNA?

I am trying to find out more, but nothing so far. I hope we have more information by tomorrow.

thrax
07-30-2015, 09:55 PM
I have just found an interview with the greek professor Christina Papageorgopoulou.
She said that it's impossible to analyze DNA from skeletal remains that have been cremated, so no DNA from Philip B has been studied.
200 samples have been studied and the results are going to be published soon. No sample from the Amphipolis tomb have been studied due to high cost.

J Man
07-30-2015, 10:59 PM
If any Y-DNA has been tested I have a good feeling that some haplogroup J2 may show up.

Krefter
07-31-2015, 03:04 AM
I think this is another abstract about the same ancient Greek DNA.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/03/live-reports-from-aapa-2015.html

Chad Rohlfsen was at a conference that discussed this Ancient Greek DNA.

The origin of the Aegean palatial civilizations from a population genetic perspective

Unterlander

Focusing on the Neolithic 6600-3200BCE and the Bronze Age, after 3200BCE
A place of early urbanization, palaces, coastal settlements, an exchange networks.

cultural or genetic changes?

37 sites
3 Mesolithic
23 Neolithic
11 Bronze Age
~180 individuals
~ are Bronze Age
mostly low endogenous dna <2%
mtDNA from 53 samples
9 Early Neolithic
23 Middle Neolithic
21 Bronze Age

So far, no real genetic difference between North and South Greeks
fst -.007 pvalue ~ .53?

Highest genetic differences shows between the early to late Nelithic. Mid/Late Neo to Bronze Age has a low fst

Fu FS in Bronze age is -13+, showing a population expansion.

No structure in the Bronze Age, to this point. Possibly Neo to Bronze continuity. Going to do more testing of Bronze Age Cultures and eventual shotgun testing.

I spoke with her afterwards. She said that they have yet to test the samples against the neighbors. I mentioned the possible Catacomb influence and Bulgarian V2 sample that was Yamnaya like. She said that she will look into it. The project is still in the early stages.

thrax
07-31-2015, 04:00 PM
Still no news about yesterday's conference, though I've read that it was mainly focused on the collection and process of ancient DNA rather than presentation of results. The interesting parts seem to be "Population Genetics of the Greek Neolithic" and "Insight into the origin of Aegean palatial civilizations from mitochondrial DNA analyses".

thrax
08-01-2015, 02:40 PM
A video from the exhibition (in greek) if anyone is interested. You can see some posters in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI3y3I8wnk

thrax
08-01-2015, 02:57 PM
I have found pictures as well. The translations are mine.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sUZq-YldmzI/Vbp4baIB4sI/AAAAAAAANN4/kWglBJr_100/s320/SAM_2350.jpg
By using ancient DNA data we know that there is a genetic relationship between the first farmers of Central Europe and the current populations of Southeastern Europe and the Middle East. The first scandinavian farmers show bigger genetic similarity with contemporary populations of the Mediterranean, which shows that the first farmers arrived to Scandinavia starting or passing through the Mediterranean.
Genetic analyses in Western Europe in neolithic material from the Iberian Peninsula show a migration wave of male population through the Mediterranean Basin.
A combination of genetic data from central Germany showed that even though the hunter-gatherers knew the neolithic way of life by living nearby the farmers for a big time period, they preserved thir way of survival for 2000 years.
These first results show that migration waves from Southeastern Europe that followed different roads contributed to the speading of farming and after this spreading the gene landscape of contemporary Europe was created.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FOxFqxb5-K0/Vbp4cR7mEvI/AAAAAAAANOA/Yasb_2KZUrs/s320/SAM_2351%2Bcopy.jpg
European Hunter Gatherers 45000 years ago
Early European Farmers 7000 years ago
Ancient North Eurasians 4000 years ago

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0w_WZYjv9Go/Vbp4z2kv9qI/AAAAAAAANO4/DX2ndG-TDK0/s320/SAM_2357.jpg
A lactose intolerance map

Krefter
08-01-2015, 05:58 PM
A video from the exhibition (in greek) if anyone is interested. You can see some posters in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI3y3I8wnk

Can you please translate the message the video is giving?

thrax
08-01-2015, 06:06 PM
Can you please translate the message the video is giving?

They present the exhibition, saying what it's about. They are saying that it's now possible to get DNA from bones and that the exhibition presents the steps to do so.
The first woman says that the first 3 genomes are already analyzed and they belong to neolithic farmers from neolithic Greece. The second woman says that blue eyes first appeared 10000 years ago and the mutation spread quickly probably because blue eyed people looked more attractive. Then the first woman says that the farmers were lactose intolerant and that Greece nowadays is among the countries with the highest percentage of lactose intolerance.

thrax
08-01-2015, 06:06 PM
It's likely that I will pay a visit to the exhibition the coming week.

thrax
08-05-2015, 08:56 PM
I paid a visit today. Nothing really new, the key points are:
-No big differences between mesolithic and neolithic mtDNA in Greece.
-No big differences between neolithic and bronze age DNA.
-Pre-Greeks, Minoans and the Aegean civilization were similar populations.
-Lactose intolerance in both mesolithic and neolithic Greece
-A big population growth between the neolithic and the Bronze Age.

A very big number of specimens from the mesolithic to the Bronze Age are being analyzed and a DNA database with greek DNA is to be created soon.

J Man
08-05-2015, 09:55 PM
I paid a visit today. Nothing really new, the key points are:
-No big differences between mesolithic and neolithic mtDNA in Greece.
-No big differences between neolithic and bronze age DNA.
-Pre-Greeks, Minoans and the Aegean civilization were similar populations.
-Lactose intolerance in both mesolithic and neolithic Greece
-A big population growth between the neolithic and the Bronze Age.

A very big number of specimens from the mesolithic to the Bronze Age are being analyzed and a DNA database with greek DNA is to be created soon.

''-No big differences between mesolithic and neolithic mtDNA in Greece.''...This makes sense actually since Greece in those times was essentially an extension of Anatolia/West Asia. Migrations and admixture between the peoples of Greece and Anatolia has been happening for an extremely long time.

Krefter
08-05-2015, 10:02 PM
I paid a visit today. Nothing really new, the key points are:
-No big differences between mesolithic and neolithic mtDNA in Greece.
-No big differences between neolithic and bronze age DNA.
-Pre-Greeks, Minoans and the Aegean civilization were similar populations.
-Lactose intolerance in both mesolithic and neolithic Greece
-A big population growth between the neolithic and the Bronze Age.

A very big number of specimens from the mesolithic to the Bronze Age are being analyzed and a DNA database with greek DNA is to be created soon.

That means Greek hunter gatherers had Near Eastern/Basal Eurasian maternal lineages. They could have basically been EEF.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-05-2015, 11:11 PM
Thrax well done on going and having a look.

If these results are part of the BEAN collaborative, I think I'd seen the preliminary results posted on Dienekes as screen shots of a talk.
I noted above talk that Greek Mesolithic looked very Near eastern, and thus must have harboured "basal Eurasian'. Possible. but the problem is I think the results are based on mere 3 samples from Mesolithic. And I don't think the study actually compared Fst distances between Greek Mesolithic and Neolithic samples, bur only between Greek data in toto and central European hunter-gather mtDNA and succeeding LBK samples.
Despite the 'unusual' mtDNA samples from Greek Mesolithic (eg no U, and presence of J, X, T ??), the WHG cline must have extended all the way to Anatolia, as Eurogenes' analysis of Barcin showed.
So the question is was the pre-Neolithic in Anatolia and Greece already "basal' admixed ? And if so when did it occur ? My guess - based on the paucity of Upper Palaeolithic sites in Greece - is anytime in the post-glacial period, probably as late as the Mesolithic itself.

J Man
08-06-2015, 12:21 AM
That means Greek hunter gatherers had Near Eastern/Basal Eurasian maternal lineages. They could have basically been EEF.

There is a very good chance that Mesolithic Greek hunter-gatherers are genetically pretty much the same as EEF.

Krefter
08-06-2015, 01:10 AM
There is a very good chance that Mesolithic Greek hunter-gatherers are genetically pretty much the same as EEF.

It'll be exciting to what they were. I was always skeptical of the idea Mesolithic hunter gatherers in the Near East and SouthEast Europe lacked Basal Eurasian. There's no confirmation the Mesolithic Greeks had Basal Eurasian, but farmer-like mtDNA is good evidence. Maybe there's no way to distinguish between East Mediterranean farmer and hunter gatherer ancestry in Early European farmers.

thrax
08-06-2015, 09:06 AM
I can't wait for the full genome sequences to be released. We will know much more then. I also wonder if there will be any E-V13 in the mesolithic samples (I somehow believe there will)

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 11:44 AM
I'm skeptical of this claim of genetic continuity in Greece from the Mesolithic to the Bronze Age. That sounds really far out.

Remember those recent comments about the Bronze Age Armenians being "almost indistinguishable" from modern Armenians, and modern Armenians being "genetic fossils from the Neolithic?" Yeah, we can all laugh at that now, can't we?

Gravetto-Danubian
08-06-2015, 12:33 PM
I can't wait for the full genome sequences to be released. We will know much more then. I also wonder if there will be any E-V13 in the mesolithic samples (I somehow believe there will)

I've wandered that too. But the full sequencing suggests a later separation of V13 from its afro-asiatic "cousins ".

parasar
08-06-2015, 06:04 PM
It'll be exciting to what they were. I was always skeptical of the idea Mesolithic hunter gatherers in the Near East and SouthEast Europe lacked Basal Eurasian. There's no confirmation the Mesolithic Greeks had Basal Eurasian, but farmer-like mtDNA is good evidence. Maybe there's no way to distinguish between East Mediterranean farmer and hunter gatherer ancestry in Early European farmers.

There will be a way to distinguish, I think, but only prior to the Mesolithic. The WHG-related we see in EEF is not WHG. It was unfortunate that the Lazaridis paper* causes this confusion. Gravetto-Danubian notes a WHG cline all the way to Anatolia. Others have mentioned presence of WHG in EEF too, when that is really not the case. What goes into EEF is something entitled UHG which splits from WHG under West Eurasian likely in the Upper Paleolithic time-frame. In essence there is no WHG in EEF, only WHG related ancestry. Plus, Lazaridis is relying on ADMIXTURE for the composition of BedouinB which I find to be problematic. Their whole analysis in the SI 13 section looks unreliable with assumptions based on pre-conceived notions.

*Lazaridis:
"It is important to remember that the amount of WHG ancestry indicated in Tables S14.7 and S14.8 is not the total amount of European hunter-gatherer present in these populations, since Early European Farmers also possessed some such ancestry (SI13)."
Plus:
"We speculate that the signal of Basal Eurasian ancestry in La Brana may instead be driven by the history of admixture between WHG related hunter-gatherers and Near Eastern farmers that formed the EEF (SI13)"
SI13:

A few lines of evidence suggest that the Stuttgart female harbors ancestry not only from Near Eastern
farmers but also from pre-Neolithic European hunter-gatherers:
1. Her position in Fig. 1B, intermediate between the Near East and European hunter-gatherers.
2. The fact that the statistic f4(Stuttgart, X; Loschbour, Chimp) is nearly always positive when X is a
Near Eastern population (Table S13.1).
3. The results of ADMIXTURE analysis (SI 9), which show that when the West Eurasian ancestral
population is split into European/Near Eastern sub-populations centered in Loschbour and
southern Near Easterners respectively, Stuttgart is assigned ancestry from both.


nearly all Near Eastern populations show negative f3(Near East; Stuttgart, X) statistics
where X is MA1, Native American, South Asian, or African (Table 1, Extended Data Table 1). As a
result, it is risky to treat any individual Near Eastern population as an unmixed descendant of early
Near Eastern farmers.

Jean M
08-06-2015, 06:33 PM
I'm skeptical of this claim of genetic continuity in Greece from the Mesolithic to the Bronze Age. That sounds really far out.

The problem here is that the few Mesolithic sites in Greece look more like Natufian than European Mesolithic. They are generally coastal. So these people could have ventured by boat along the coast from the Levant. Their mtDNA haplogroups would therefore be Near Eastern; their genomes would be Near Eastern; they would be pretty well indistinguishable from the Near Eastern farmers who arrived in Greece later. It's not that there was no migration bringing farming. There certainly was and the farmers would rapidly outbreed the handful of hunter-gatherers.

Subsequently we have evidence strongly suggestive of migration into northern Crete 3000 BC by people from Anatolia, making a component of what was to become the Minoan civilization (2100-1600 BC), but these people could well have been genetically indistinguishable from the earlier farming arrivals.

Somebody must have brought the Greek language and I think I can see an archaeological trail from the steppe into mainland Greece in the early Bronze Age. But they entered a region that was far from deserted. Homer recognised non-Greek-speaking peoples in Greece. Herodotus, centuries later, acknowledged that the Greeks had been comparatively sparse until they absorbed non-Greek-speakers. So its no surprise really that the modern Greeks are not dominated by Y-DNA R1b. They are not as EEF as modern Sardinians, but more so than most other European nations.

palamede
08-06-2015, 06:52 PM
I've wandered that too. But the full sequencing suggests a later separation of V13 from its afro-asiatic "cousins ".

Yfull gives 2 levels between M78 and V13 :

E-M78 PF2111 * CTS11310/PF2199 * CTS2802/PF2131... 93 SNPs formed 21700 ybp, TMRCA 12000 ybp

____E-Z1919 Z1920/CTS4235/PF2228 * V1083/CTS202/Z825 * CTS8915... 2 SNPs formed 12000 ybp, TMRCA 10000 ybp

________E-L618 CTS10912/PF2249 * CTS2003 * CTS9223/PF2242... 43 SNPs formed 10000 ybp, TMRCA 7500 ybp

___________E-V13 CTS1408/Z1045 * CTS7237/PF2238 * CTS3998... 35 SNPs formed 7500 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp

M78 was certainly born in north-east Africa but we don't know where Z1919, L618 and V13 were born although the best probability is E13 born in Europe. In more we have a Spanish V13 sample dating about 5000BC in a Catalonian come for a man (or his ancestors) come with the expansion of Cardial culture.
The arrival in Europe of the ancestor of E-V13 men were between 12000BP and 7500BP according to Yfull datings and their datings are probably underestimating by at least 15% as showed by Michal.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-07-2015, 04:54 AM
Somebody must have brought the Greek language and I think I can see an archaeological trail from the steppe into mainland Greece in the early Bronze Age. .

Hhhmm. Signs and suggestions perhaps, but a clear trail - not, IMO.

What is the evidence of steppic contacts with Greece, Macedonia ? ::

Well, we have the advent of Corded Ware pottery, which comes over a wide temporal phase and diffuse pattern, which speaks of selective adaptation of pastoralist cultures by specific niche groups rather than a trail of invaders. (Corded Ware in the Central and Southern Balkans: A Consequence of Cultural Interaction or an Indication of Ethnic Change?, A Bulatovic).
Then there are tumuli and other kurgan-like monuments. South of the Danube and north Bulgarian plain, there are few to speak of. There are a handful in the upper Thracian plain which could date to MBA and a similar number around Montenegro (Yamnaya Groups and Tumuli West of the Black Sea. V Heyd). Certainly, a few more appear in Epirus and northern Greece, which Hammond used to track "proto-Greeks", etc. but these mostly date from the LBA (c. 1200 BC). (The Emergence and the architectural development of the Tumulus Burial Custom in NW Greece.... S Oikinonmidis, et al).

Finally, A Harding looked specifically for steppic contacts in Mycenean origins (Horse-harness and the Origins of the Mycenean Civilization). His main (and only) evidence is similarities between Catacomb culture horse harnesses and those found in Mycenean regions. All other aspects of Mycenean culture show a wide diversity of influences - local, and especially Near Eastern, even as far as Egypt. One could argue focussing on a mere one category, and moreover elevating it above all else can be critiqued as being reductionist, and treats isolated finds as "index fossils" for migration- without real contextual analysis.

Whatever the case, contacts with the steppe are obvious. but they are in the minority. Of course, this doesn't mean that some kind of movement from the North didn't happen.

Homer recognised non-Greek-speaking peoples in Greece. Herodotus, centuries later, acknowledged that the Greeks had been comparatively sparse until they absorbed non-Greek-speakers. So its no surprise really that the modern Greeks are not dominated by Y-DNA R1b. They are not as EEF as modern Sardinians, but more so than most other European nations.

I'm not sure how useful semi-mythical narrative from 450 BC - which relate to contemporary political events - are for events which occurred. c. 2500 BC.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-07-2015, 05:10 AM
Yfull gives 2 levels between M78 and V13 :

E-M78 PF2111 * CTS11310/PF2199 * CTS2802/PF2131... 93 SNPs formed 21700 ybp, TMRCA 12000 ybp

____E-Z1919 Z1920/CTS4235/PF2228 * V1083/CTS202/Z825 * CTS8915... 2 SNPs formed 12000 ybp, TMRCA 10000 ybp

________E-L618 CTS10912/PF2249 * CTS2003 * CTS9223/PF2242... 43 SNPs formed 10000 ybp, TMRCA 7500 ybp

___________E-V13 CTS1408/Z1045 * CTS7237/PF2238 * CTS3998... 35 SNPs formed 7500 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp

M78 was certainly born in north-east Africa but we don't know where Z1919, L618 and V13 were born although the best probability is E13 born in Europe. In more we have a Spanish V13 sample dating about 5000BC in a Catalonian come for a man (or his ancestors) come with the expansion of Cardial culture.
The arrival in Europe of the ancestor of E-V13 men were between 12000BP and 7500BP according to Yfull datings and their datings are probably underestimating by at least 15% as showed by Michal.

Yes, we're all aware of the finds of E-V13 in late Neolithic Spain. Moreover, it might have been there also in late Neolithic Hungary (although a limited analysis through SNP capture). There is no E-V13 from early Neolithic finds. The 'age of formation' of V13 c. 7.5 kya is hardly Mesolithic - in fact its wholly Neolithic within a Near east context.

"Yfull datings and their datings are probably underestimating by at least 15% as showed by Michal. "

Michal has argued that, not shown it. Maybe he's correct. Im not an expert.

alan
08-07-2015, 01:02 PM
I looked into the Greek Mesolithic a while back and came to the conclusion it is very atypical for Europe and probably came from the Levant sort of area. So I am not at all surprised that Greek Mesolithic and Neolithic may have been very similar and basically what we call EEF. However, Greece is very unusual for Europe in this respect and an exception to the rule of the Mesolithic hunters being long-time Europeans who contrasted with the incoming farmers. Personally I expect Greek hunters to be E people but again this is a rare Greece-specific thing and very unusual for Mesolithic Europe.

As for the ealiest waves of Greeks speakers, I think they arrived relatively late in the period 2000-1500BC. I would still expect that we will see Z2103 appearing in that period even if in small numbers. If the Mycenean Greeks arrived in this relatively late period then the fact Greek is not satem shifted is prob a clue to where they lived in the period before entering Greece. I have seen an alternative scenario posited that the Greeks and Armenians came down the east side of the Black Sea somehow with Armenians stopping and the Greeks pushed on into Greece hugging south shore of that sea. I havent read the details of the theory so I have no idea if it makes any sense or has the slightest evidence.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-07-2015, 01:30 PM
I looked into the Greek Mesolithic a while back and came to the conclusion it is very atypical for Europe and probably came from the Levant sort of area. So I am not at all surprised that Greek Mesolithic and Neolithic may have been very similar and basically what we call EEF. However, Greece is very unusual for Europe in this respect and an exception to the rule of the Mesolithic hunters being long-time Europeans who contrasted with the incoming farmers. Personally I expect Greek hunters to be E people but again this is a rare Greece-specific thing and very unusual for Mesolithic Europe.

I wouldn't speculate on Y lineages, but there's actually little if any evidence for contact between Greece and the levant during the mesolithic. Certainly nothing Natufian, even in Antalya or Maramara in Anatolia. I think these Greek and Anatolian mesolithic groups might have just lingered on from the sparse UP groups who had always dwelt there.

alan
08-07-2015, 02:08 PM
sorry double post - deleted

alan
08-07-2015, 02:13 PM
I wouldn't speculate on Y lineages, but there's actually little if any evidence for contact between Greece and the levant during the mesolithic. Certainly nothing Natufian, even in Antalya or Maramara in Anatolia. I think these Greek and Anatolian mesolithic groups might have just lingered on from the sparse UP groups who had always dwelt there.

I have read about Greek-Natufian links in recent articles. I once posted links to them. Actually unlike Greece, NW Anatolia does have Mesolithic material that looks very similar to the epigravettian that on the west and NW Shores of the Black Sea. Seems they may have used the Black Sea west and south-west shores as a route rather than a barrier. However they do not seem to have settled in Greece except perhaps a very limited area. The island and coastal nature of Greece seems to have attracted hunters from other sources and the Levant has been suggested. So, I fully expect Greece to be an exception in terms of its Mesolithic population being very similar to the farmers.

alan
08-07-2015, 02:25 PM
I wouldn't speculate on Y lineages, but there's actually little if any evidence for contact between Greece and the levant during the mesolithic. Certainly nothing Natufian, even in Antalya or Maramara in Anatolia. I think these Greek and Anatolian mesolithic groups might have just lingered on from the sparse UP groups who had always dwelt there.

From my reading of the archaeology the Marmara and other areas of coastal NW Anatolia may well have had hunters of a sort with connections with the west shore of the Black Sea - even linked as far as Crimea. The archaeology seems to show that in NW Anatolia farmers coming from central Anatolia mixed with Agach fishers and I suspect the latter were I yline people. However I think most of Greece was linked to the east Med. in the Mesolithic and I cant help but think E groups were involved and that Greece later played a major role in the dispersal of E through the Med. and Balkans from the Neolithic (in small dozes) and into far later times. However it is clear not the main Neolithic y lineage of most of Europe. I suspect a little E was present in small quantities Cardial - which is earliest in the Adriatic including extreme NW Greece but seems absent in LBK. I suspect the key to this is that a large chunk of E is pre-farming in Greece and was absorbed there and expanded again with farming in Greece but not in most other areas. Again, I think this is a Greek exception to the European norm.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-08-2015, 09:49 AM
From my reading of the archaeology the Marmara and other areas of coastal NW Anatolia may well have had hunters of a sort with connections with the west shore of the Black Sea - even linked as far as Crimea. The archaeology seems to show that in NW Anatolia farmers coming from central Anatolia mixed with Agach fishers and I suspect the latter were I yline people. However I think most of Greece was linked to the east Med. in the Mesolithic and I cant help but think E groups were involved and that Greece later played a major role in the dispersal of E through the Med. and Balkans from the Neolithic (in small dozes) and into far later times. However it is clear not the main Neolithic y lineage of most of Europe. I suspect a little E was present in small quantities Cardial - which is earliest in the Adriatic including extreme NW Greece but seems absent in LBK. I suspect the key to this is that a large chunk of E is pre-farming in Greece and was absorbed there and expanded again with farming in Greece but not in most other areas. Again, I think this is a Greek exception to the European norm.

Yes that's what I've read also - the maramara - Pontic connection. But, at least according to Kozlowski - there is little connection between Greece and Near East. I suspect Mesolithic Greek Y DNA would something like I2a1a, I2c, etc. But I'd be happy to be surprised.

jeanL
08-08-2015, 02:08 PM
What do you guys make of the fact that the early greek farmers were dark skinned, whereas the Central European farmers were lighter skinned? We know that the Hunter Gatherer turned farmer K01 was heterozygous for the SLC24A5, whereas most farmers from the area and central Europe were homozygous derived. On the other hand the more European limited SLC45A2 appears to have been very limited in Central and Western European farmers, whereas it has been found in both Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Scandinavian Farmers. I know it seems as if the primary vector for the distribution of SLC24A5 was agriculture, though its presence in European Hunter Gatherers makes it seem like it was widespread, but now that we get DNA from farmers closer to the source of Agriculture than any other and they(I presume) turned out to be ancestral at SLC24A5, it could be the small sample size, but doesn't that call into question the claim that the SLC24A5 was of farmer arrival?

alan
08-08-2015, 06:05 PM
What do you guys make of the fact that the early greek farmers were dark skinned, whereas the Central European farmers were lighter skinned? We know that the Hunter Gatherer turned farmer K01 was heterozygous for the SLC24A5, whereas most farmers from the area and central Europe were homozygous derived. On the other hand the more European limited SLC45A2 appears to have been very limited in Central and Western European farmers, whereas it has been found in both Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Scandinavian Farmers. I know it seems as if the primary vector for the distribution of SLC24A5 was agriculture, though its presence in European Hunter Gatherers makes it seem like it was widespread, but now that we get DNA from farmers closer to the source of Agriculture than any other and they(I presume) turned out to be ancestral at SLC24A5, it could be the small sample size, but doesn't that call into question the claim that the SLC24A5 was of farmer arrival?

I dont recall all the details but Greece has some very early and perhaps different farmer waves from the rest of Europe. So they may not have been an identical mix. Also the local hunters may have been different to the rest of Europe too so if they absorbed some of them then that would add to the difference. It seems that in the Balkans I hunters were absorbed and that could have had an effect and a knock of effect on LBK as it is thought to derive from Koros Balkans Neolithic culture. You also have to allow for the fact that there is a significant time gap between farmers in Greece and in many parts of Europe and of course different weather and environmental conditions. There are many reasons not to be too surprised if Greece is somewhat of an exception to many other areas because in many ways it is exceptionally archaeologically in the nature of the hunters and in the very early arrival of its farmers (or at least an early wave)

Arame
08-11-2015, 09:11 AM
I have seen an alternative scenario posited that the Greeks and Armenians came down the east side of the Black Sea somehow with Armenians stopping and the Greeks pushed on into Greece hugging south shore of that sea. I havent read the details of the theory so I have no idea if it makes any sense or has the slightest evidence.

alan

Perhaps this theory of Eric Hamp
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp239_indo_european_languages.pdf

He calls Greeks and Armenians Pontic Indeo-europeans and moves them directly from Maykop region to South Caucasus. Greeks continue to move west.

J Man
08-11-2015, 01:19 PM
Yes that's what I've read also - the maramara - Pontic connection. But, at least according to Kozlowski - there is little connection between Greece and Near East. I suspect Mesolithic Greek Y DNA would something like I2a1a, I2c, etc. But I'd be happy to be surprised.

On the contrary I will not be surprised if Mesolithic Greek Y-DNA turns out to be similar to Mesolithic and Neolithic Anatolian Y-DNA once it is all tested.

Anabasis
08-11-2015, 02:04 PM
alan

Perhaps this theory of Eric Hamp
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp239_indo_european_languages.pdf

He calls Greeks and Armenians Pontic Indeo-europeans and moves them directly from Maykop region to South Caucasus. Greeks continue to move west.

This theory regrets exsistence of all Indo European civilitaztions in Anatolia during bronze age like Nesian (so called Hittites), Luwians, Palas and put them in garbage. On the other hand there arent strict connection between south- eastern black sea and todays greece either in paternal or autosomals. (eastern black sea region of anatolia has the lowest frequency of R1b and R1a in Turkey, which is around ~7-8%) Diffusion of Greek language on pontic region is a metter of hellenic period and medevial times and defussions of thier hegomony but not gen flow.

parasar
08-11-2015, 02:52 PM
What do you guys make of the fact that the early greek farmers were dark skinned, whereas the Central European farmers were lighter skinned? We know that the Hunter Gatherer turned farmer K01 was heterozygous for the SLC24A5, whereas most farmers from the area and central Europe were homozygous derived. On the other hand the more European limited SLC45A2 appears to have been very limited in Central and Western European farmers, whereas it has been found in both Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Scandinavian Farmers. I know it seems as if the primary vector for the distribution of SLC24A5 was agriculture, though its presence in European Hunter Gatherers makes it seem like it was widespread, but now that we get DNA from farmers closer to the source of Agriculture than any other and they(I presume) turned out to be ancestral at SLC24A5, it could be the small sample size, but doesn't that call into question the claim that the SLC24A5 was of farmer arrival?

That was exactly my point.

As I understand it, Jean M took the position that there is no evidence of a migration/spread from Scandinavia, even if it per chance got picked up from there.

There was no migration from Scandinavia to spread Motala allelles all over Europe, the Near East and North Africa. There was mass migration which carried farming from the Near East into Europe and North Africa. So the logical deduction is that farming was the main vector of spread, though natural selection accounts for the cline we see today from the pale northern Europe to the dark south of South Asia.

While it is possible that Gok 2 picked up an allelle from a Scandinavian hunter-gatherer, we are still left with the fact that she and her people were not about to burst out of Scandinavia and rush all over the place. By the time people did burst out of Scandinavia in the Migration Period and Viking times, we have plenty of pictures of pale Europeans, North Africans and Near Easterners. In short Scandinavia was not the source of pale people. It has pale people now because of millennia of natural selection.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-11-2015, 08:48 PM
On the contrary I will not be surprised if Mesolithic Greek Y-DNA turns out to be similar to Mesolithic and Neolithic Anatolian Y-DNA once it is all tested.

My poor wording. Yes greek and Anatolian should be similar, but dissimilar to the Levant.

kamikaze
08-12-2015, 01:09 PM
I think this is another abstract about the same ancient Greek DNA.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/03/live-reports-from-aapa-2015.html

Chad Rohlfsen was at a conference that discussed this Ancient Greek DNA.

I remember this, as well the early neolithic Barcin sample from NW anatolia. The early neolithic farmers in greece were almost certainly like BAR100, however, there is also this abstract about later neolithic in anatolia:



The Neolithic transition began ~12,000 BP in the Near East (NE) and from there it spread throughout Europe. This episode which is defined as the replacement of hunting and gathering way of life with another one based on farming and herding, transformed the global demography, social organization and structure. Therefore, understanding the dynamics behind the establishment and spread of the Neolithic has been a core interest in archaeogenomics studies. Outstanding progress of the sequencing technologies has facilitated the investigation of ancient genomes and led to the discovery of the migration-based diffusion of the Neolithic from NE into Europe. However, several questions as to how this period started within the NE and which processes prompted the spread of it inside the region have remained unknown. Hence, we have started to investigate human remains from Anatolia and Cyprus through exploiting ancient genomics approaches to answer these questions, to describe the Near Eastern Neolithic, as well as to delineate the characteristics of Near Eastern populations. To date, we sequenced 21 Neolithic samples excavated from 4 different sites and discovered the presence of authentic DNA conservation at high level in 4/21 samples. This study will reveal the processes behind the establishment of Neolithic within the NE and dynamics behind the spread of the culture within the region.

The AAPA abstract mentions a break in continuity between early and late neo, so whatever happened in anatolia could have carried over in Greece as well. All of this is timed before the entrance of the IE speakers in Middle Bronze.

This is what I got so far from this story.

Here is the Barcin sample btw, the red square far below the sardinian cluster.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQNUlZMDJubmZOWUU/view

Generalissimo
08-12-2015, 01:55 PM
Let's put it this way, the shift in west Anatolia from early to late Neolithic was something similar to the shift in Europe from LBK to Oetzi.

In other words, it wasn't much of a shift. You'll have to take my word for it for now...or not. In any case, there are lots of genomes on the way, and they'll be published soon.

kamikaze
08-12-2015, 02:02 PM
Let's put it this way, the shift in west Anatolia from early to late Neolithic was something similar to the shift in Europe from LBK to Oetzi.

In other words, it wasn't much of a shift. You'll have to take my word for it for now...or not. In any case, there are lots of genomes on the way, and they'll be published soon.

Unlikely, this is what it says:



Anatolia played a key role in the Eurasian Neolithisation. The expansion from this area was driven west and northwards by migration, but we know little about the actual establishing of Neolithic societies in Anatolia, and what kind of population dynamics affected their gene pool. We present the first ancient genome wide data from a 6700 year old Anatolian excavated from a late Neolithic context in Kumtepe. We show that this individual display genetic similarities to the European Neolithic genepool, which anchors the Neolithic expansion in Europe to Anatolia. Further, the Kumtepe individual does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern-day populations from the Near East and Caucasus, suggesting gene flow into Anatolia in the late Neolithic. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with gene flow into Europe from or through the Neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the Neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia. This area was entangled in a complex web of contacts with other parts of the Near East, and the distribution of genetic variation in early European farmers suggests that the contacts with the European continent also remained and replenished with people's constant movements in and out of Anatolia.

Generalissimo
08-12-2015, 02:28 PM
Unlikely, this is what it says:

I know what it says. I also know what it doesn't say.

R.Rocca
08-12-2015, 02:29 PM
Let's put it this way, the shift in west Anatolia from early to late Neolithic was something similar to the shift in Europe from LBK to Oetzi.

In other words, it wasn't much of a shift. You'll have to take my word for it for now...or not. In any case, there are lots of genomes on the way, and they'll be published soon.

That is probable from an autosomal DNA perspective, but I'm guessing that a big expansion in the Late Neolithic/Copper Age of haplogroup J2 changed the Y-DNA landscape of Western Anatolia significantly. Perhaps one group of EEF-like males replacing prior EEF males? Looking forward to those additional genomes clearing that up for us.

alan
08-12-2015, 02:41 PM
That is probably from an autosomal DNA perspective, but I'm guessing that a big expansion in the Late Neolithic/Copper Age of haplogroup J2 changed the Y-DNA landscape significantly. Perhaps one group of EEF-like males replacing prior EEF males? Looking forward to those additional genomes clearing that up for us.

Yeah there was a whole area of SW Asia that received Neolithic farming no earlier or actually later than the first waves into Europe including the Caucasus - north and south, the Iran plateau and north-east Iran/Turkemenistan (the latter two apparently culturally linked). Clearly these originated in a more north and easterly part of the farming core area than the first waves into Europe. Even NW Anatolia may be later the earliest waves into Europe and you see secondary Neolithic Antatolian influenced groups in the west Black Sea shore area. So there could have been new genes knocking on the doors of the Balkans and steppes from Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran after the first flush of farming entering Europe and I suspect a J link, especially with the Caucasus, Iran and Turkmenistan. They must have originated somewhere in the eastern part of the earlier farming zone.

alan
08-12-2015, 03:14 PM
Unlikely, this is what it says:

The part of NW Anatolia close to Europe featured the Fikirtepe culture commencing c. 6500C in its earliest Neolithic which seems have featured a mix of local fishers (with traits similar to the European west Black Sea zone) and farmers coming from more easterly parts of Anatolia where farming vast much more ancient. The development of an advanced dairy economy seems to have taken place in this culture too but appears to not have transferred to Europe until after 5500BC with the Hamagia culture of east Bulgaria being the first - incidentally a culture for which many Anatolian cultural links are also claimed.

ADW_1981
08-12-2015, 04:07 PM
If the additional Middle Eastern component is referring to a more Bedouin-like component, similar to a SW Asian labelled component that appears in some ADMIXTURE runs, then the terminology makes sense. However, they may also be referring to the Central Asian (Teal) component that appears in Yamnaya/Kush. However, labelling this as Middle Eastern would be incorrect in my view.

If the results indicate the former scenario, we're looking at a very late entry of Central Asian "Asiatics" who pushed into the Middle East in the Bronze Age and later periods which likely brought substantial amount of "Teal" to the local populations which exists there today...

kamikaze
08-12-2015, 04:15 PM
If the additional Middle Eastern component is referring to a more Bedouin-like component, similar to a SW Asian labelled component that appears in some ADMIXTURE runs, then the terminology makes sense.

This seems more likely. There was an iron age thracian sample that had a middle eastern 'green' component, like SW asian in the old k8.

J Man
08-12-2015, 04:45 PM
Yeah there was a whole area of SW Asia that received Neolithic farming no earlier or actually later than the first waves into Europe including the Caucasus - north and south, the Iran plateau and north-east Iran/Turkemenistan (the latter two apparently culturally linked). Clearly these originated in a more north and easterly part of the farming core area than the first waves into Europe. Even NW Anatolia may be later the earliest waves into Europe and you see secondary Neolithic Antatolian influenced groups in the west Black Sea shore area. So there could have been new genes knocking on the doors of the Balkans and steppes from Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran after the first flush of farming entering Europe and I suspect a J link, especially with the Caucasus, Iran and Turkmenistan. They must have originated somewhere in the eastern part of the earlier farming zone.

Yup I really do think that there is a good chance that Y-DNA haplogroup J is linked to early Neolithic farming groups that originated in the area of present day Iran. These guys expanded during the late Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Ages mainly.

Athx123
08-12-2015, 09:07 PM
According to thrax.


Pre-Greeks, Minoans and the Aegean civilization were similar populations.

We have Minoan (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html) mtdna dated to 4,400–3,700 years before present.


The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual.

When by sharing doesn't look much different than a "casual" European Neolithic, plus matching perfectly the mtdna of the area.

Geographic density maps of shared mtDNA lineages.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_article/ncomms2871-f3.jpg

The top 10 and bottom 10 nearest neighbours to the Minoans. (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/fig_tab/ncomms2871_T1.html)

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2s9rs6d.jpg

When U5 was identified in close-date 17th–16th century BC Mycenae (http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html), albeit this is most probably a steppe addition which also makes me wonder of the relativity of "no big differences" and the exact dates.