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View Full Version : 23andme results of North-African Jews



nicolie
07-31-2015, 12:17 AM
results


Moroccan Jew:

paternal haplogroup
http://s26.postimg.org/skn4p7imx/mj2.jpg


maternal haplogroup
http://s26.postimg.org/gwt2unti1/mj3.jpg


ancestry composition
http://s26.postimg.org/t8vz85hcp/mj1.jpg


Top 5 countries of ancestry
http://s26.postimg.org/vvbhp38k9/mj5.jpg



Tunisian Jew:

paternal haplogroup
http://i.imgur.com/NiPw6X5.png


maternal haplogroup
http://i.imgur.com/XHE6V5x.png


ancestry composition
http://i.imgur.com/dMsabbL.jpg

paulgill
07-31-2015, 12:35 AM
23andMe Ancestry Composition is utterly unreliable in my case. Even FTDNA MyOrigins is much better than it, again there are very many free tools at Gedmatch and there are a few members here, who are always testing and improving such tools.

tamilgangster
07-31-2015, 02:40 AM
Im guessing the high european scores are from jews who were exiled from spain

AJL
07-31-2015, 02:58 AM
It's very common for Sephardim to get some "broadly Southern European" (that's what my Sephardi inheritance is painted as too) because Sephardim were mainly in Southern Europe -- from Portugal and Spain through France and Italy east to the Balkans and Turkey -- and, because unlike Ashkenazi, Sephardi is not recognized as a separate category.

Whether these genes are more typical of Europe or of the Near East is also not immediately obvious, because 23andme is taking it for granted that samples are typical of their most recent point of origin, which is not always (in fact rarely) true of a diaspora.

Take for example Tatar, Armenian, and Romani diasporas, which could potentially all appear as "East European." Specific diaspora samples would really help people sort out whether a local component was in fact generic. So I'd have hoped they would by now have added more diaspora populations, including Sephardim but also many others like Parsis, Acadians, etc.

Agamemnon
07-31-2015, 03:44 AM
It's very common for Sephardim to get some "broadly Southern European" (that's what my Sephardi inheritance is painted as too) because Sephardim were mainly in Southern Europe -- from Portugal and Spain through France and Italy east to the Balkans and Turkey -- and, because unlike Ashkenazi, Sephardi is not recognized as a separate category.

Whether these genes are more typical of Europe or of the Near East is also not immediately obvious, because 23andme is taking it for granted that samples are typical of their most recent point of origin, which is not always (in fact rarely) true of a diaspora.

Take for example Tatar, Armenian, and Romani diasporas, which could potentially all appear as "East European." Specific diaspora samples would really help people sort out whether a local component was in fact generic. So I'd have hoped they would by now have added more diaspora populations, including Sephardim but also many others like Parsis, Acadians, etc.

Quite so, ironically-enough these results are probably very similar to what your average Ashkenazi Jew would get if the "Ashkenazi" category didn't exist.

Juba
07-31-2015, 03:53 AM
Why do they seem to be getting "Italian" instead of "Iberian", with Iberian being very low? Even normal North Africans, not moriscos or anything, get a great majority Iberian for their European section, whereas these supposedly Sephardic(Spanish) Jews get close to no Iberian.
And they seem to have a high "North African". I think they might be local Jews, not Sephardic Jews.

E_M81_I3A
07-31-2015, 07:52 AM
These two profiles have a high "North African" component because they are very likely local North African Jews (even if most of North African Jews often identify as Sephardim). Sephardim (Descendants of Jews from Spain, Portugal) do not get such a high value for "North African" at 23andme.

Juba
07-31-2015, 08:58 AM
These two profiles have a high "North African" component because they are very likely local North African Jews (even if most of North African Jews often identify as Sephardim). Sephardim (Descendants of Jews from Spain, Portugal) do not get such a high value for "North African" at 23andme.
This. I really doubt they're Sephardim.
More likely they're native Jews mixed in with Mizrahim(real Jews) and maybe some Sephardi.

Sephardim pretty much all went to big cities in North Africa after the inquisition, but there were still plenty of Jews on the countryside that live there since time immemorial. They even had their own mixed language of mainly Berber plus Hebrew in many places, like Ladino and Yiddish.

For example, Riffian Jews worked many jobs that other Riffians looked down upon and weren't interested in, like blacksmith or cobbler. They also weren't physically differentiable from other Riffians, unlike the Jews in big cities which most could easily segregate from the rest just from their appearance.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10858376_819951458070768_9050790263449936087_n.jpg ?oh=a6791d3343c3e443b0495e777ee32e75&oe=560F01F5

Ignis90
07-31-2015, 09:10 AM
We don't know if they are Toshavim or Megorachim because in both countries you have different types of Jew. In any case, they wouldn't be very different from Sefardic (and even Ashkenazi) Jews apart from higher North African admix.

I personally highly doubt there was a pred-North African Jewish group left in the 20th century with the colonial system and the segregation. If there ever was a pred-berber group in the recent past, it would have quickly mixed with the rest of the Jewish population.

We need dna samples from Berber-speaking Jews (in Israel) and from a couple of Jews originally from berber-speaking places (Tafilalt, Aflalo etc..) to get at least a hint.

Agamemnon
07-31-2015, 12:56 PM
Lybian and Tunisian Jews derive most of their ancestry from the "toshavim", which is why they have the highest amounts of North African admixture and clearly cline towards North Africa. They're still very similar to other Western Jewish populations (Sephardic, Ashkenazi) as a whole, which is quite a feat considering the fact that their ancestors arrived in North Africa with the first Phoenicians settlers. Algerian and Moroccan Jews mostly descend from the "megorashim", even though they also have non-negligible amounts of North African admixture. I'd like to know more about their paternal lineages though, I know Moroccan and Tunisian Jewish Kohanim carry the same J1 subclade as other Kohanim (Z18271), that's not very surprising, I do think the high G and J2b frequencies (in Moroccan and Libyan Jews respectively) deserve more attention.

Awale
07-31-2015, 01:34 PM
Quite so, ironically-enough these results are probably very similar to what your average Ashkenazi Jew would get if the "Ashkenazi" category didn't exist.

Interesting... A Half Sephardi and half Senegambian chica I know also turns up with these kinds of results on 23andme-> her West Eurasian turns up as Southern European and almost entirely "Italian" at that. I'm not sharing with her; she just showed me her results ages ago so that's why I haven't shared them. Would otherwise...

evon
07-31-2015, 03:48 PM
Its worth noting that Italian is common as a component found in Armenians and other Middle eastern populations, including Turks etc...So rather then being exclusive to Italy, I would think its pan-Mediterranean in nature, and not connected to Iberia as such....


Some peoples of various ancestry whom all have Italian % to different degree:

Brazilian Sephardic:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Brazilsep.png

Peruvian/Jewish:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/PeruJew.png

Cuban1:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Cuban.png

Cuban2:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/cuban2.png

Volga Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Tatar.png

Portuguese:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Portugese.png

Turkish1:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Turkish.png

Turkish2:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Turkish2.png

Armenian:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Armenian.png

Georgian:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Georgia.png

Spaniard:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/spain.png

AJL
07-31-2015, 05:58 PM
Why do they seem to be getting "Italian" instead of "Iberian", with Iberian being very low?

There could be a couple of reason, such as actual Italian ancestry; Italkim who got integrated into Sephardi populations; or simply that someone happens to come from a lineage that left many descendants among the Sephardim who converted especially in Calabria and Sicily.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/163180/aiello-italy-jewish-roots

dp
07-31-2015, 06:36 PM
what admix util at GEDmatch is best for detecting Sephardim/Ashkenazim admixture? Is that what Jtest is?
dp :-)

Ignis90
07-31-2015, 07:34 PM
Why do they seem to be getting "Italian" instead of "Iberian", with Iberian being very low?

Well, another explanation is that Western Jews (Ashkenazis, Sefardis, North Africans) seem to derive their European ancestry not from Iberia but rather from [northern] Italy. It's not clear yet but it makes sense considering the Roman Empire had a sizeable (and already culturally influential) Jewish population and it would partially explain the rather rapid spread of Christianity in the major roman centers (Italy, Africa, Alexandria/Egypt, Asia...).

It would also explain why native (Toshavim) North African Jews aren't just Levantine + Berber anymore (what they would have been when they arrived with Phoenicia/Carthage civilization). The initial Jews probably absorbed a lot of these Roman Jews to the point of not existing anymore as a distinct Levantine/Berber hybrid.

Another important era of Western Jews history is the hellenistic one (with Jews present in Asia and Cyrenaica for instance) but the geography cannot explain the European ancestry IMHO. It looks more like a general Jewish era, not particularly linked with Western Jews.

John Doe
07-31-2015, 09:04 PM
Well, another explanation is that Western Jews (Ashkenazis, Sefardis, North Africans) seem to derive their European ancestry not from Iberia but rather from [northern] Italy. It's not clear yet but it makes sense considering the Roman Empire had a sizeable (and already culturally influential) Jewish population and it would partially explain the rather rapid spread of Christianity in the major roman centers (Italy, Africa, Alexandria/Egypt, Asia...).

It would also explain why native (Toshavim) North African Jews aren't just Levantine + Berber anymore (what they would have been when they arrived with Phoenicia/Carthage civilization). The initial Jews probably absorbed a lot of these Roman Jews to the point of not existing anymore as a distinct Levantine/Berber hybrid.

Another important era of Western Jews history is the hellenistic one (with Jews present in Asia and Cyrenaica for instance) but the geography cannot explain the European ancestry IMHO. It looks more like a general Jewish era, not particularly linked with Western Jews.
Maybe the European ancestry came from Greeks, from Greece but also from western Anatolia, Alexandria, Syria etc.

Odyss
07-31-2015, 09:20 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed?

The Moroccan-Jewish results don't look usual. MtDNA X2b is very interresting as it is a typical Libyan Jewish mtDNA. The "European" score is lower than the Tunisian Jew and the "North African" is higher which is not in line with the Moroccan Jewish results from Behar et.al where most are less North African-shifted in comparison. Of course it could be a more Berber-leaning Moroccan-Jew individual as the Behar sample are only a reference for now and don't represent the whole diversity of the community , so that could be all wrong but the mtDNA lineage is still intriguing.

I thought for a few minutes to whom the results could belong to and then I remind that there is an Israeli guy on 23andme who is part Moroccan/Libyan Jewish. There is no Moroccan Jewish man apart from him. Are the results his ?

Agamemnon
07-31-2015, 09:21 PM
Maybe the European ancestry came from Greeks, from Greece but also from western Anatolia, Alexandria, Syria etc.

I also think Greek ancestry would make more sense, since the diaspora initially was a Hellenistic phenomenon (and if you add all the Aegean influence in the Levant since the Bronze age it makes even more sense). The odds really aren't looking good for a North Italian (or even broadly Italian) ethnogenesis anymore, at least considering where the Etruscan samples seem to cluster. I think all this "Italian" ancestry really represents East Mediterranean ancestry rather than Italian ancestry proper.


Hasn't anyone noticed?
The Moroccan Jewish results don't look typical/usual. mtDNA x2b is very interresting as it is a typical Libyan Jewish mtDNA. The European score is lower than the Tunisian Jew and the North African is higher which is not in line with the Moroccan Jewish results from Behar et.al where they are constantly more European and less North African-shifted in comparison. Of course it could be a more Berber-leaning Moroccan Jewish individual but the MtDNA is still atypical.
I thought for a few minutes to whom the results could belong to , and then I remind that there is an Israeli guy on 23andme who is part Moroccan/Libyan Jewish. There is no Moroccan Jewish man apart from him. Are the results his ?

Quite true, a relative of mine who lives in Israel (we share the same paternal ancestors a few centuries back) whose mother is a Libyan Jew also carries X2b.

Lank
07-31-2015, 10:38 PM
23andMe's "Italian" is very unspecific, from what I've seen. Any vague South Euro affinity in mixed populations (a problem for 23andMe's algorithm, which has to separate segments on both chromosomes), Africans, Middle Easterners, and in this case Sephardic or North African Jews, shows as "Italian".

This becomes rather evident for users with recently mixed ancestry. There are 23andMe users of half or 1/4 West Asian, with the remainder being Western Euro ancestry, who complain of very high Italian in 23andMe's Ancestry Composition. Since they score higher than either of the contributing populations, it seems likely in this case that the combination of Western Euro and West Asian ancestry results in something vaguely similar to Italians. There's no point looking too much into what is essentially an artifact of the method.

Odyss
07-31-2015, 10:48 PM
23andme Italian category are made up of Italian Americans , who are mostly from South Italy (Campania,Calabria and Sicily) which are the regions of Europe with the highest Neolithic component , so it is not surprising a lot of Mediterranean or Mediterranean and West Asian-derived population got their ancestry catched up by it.

AJL
08-01-2015, 04:09 AM
what admix util at GEDmatch is best for detecting Sephardim/Ashkenazim admixture? Is that what Jtest is?
dp :-)

For minor admixture? I would look for actual matching segments of over 7.5 cM with users with known Sephardi ancestry, then check the chromosome in the overlapping area to see how it's painted.

For more substantial Sephardi ancestry of approaching 25% or more, Jtest should work as should any of the usual algorithms with the regular 7-to-12 clusters and an Oracle should work about equally well. Say, Dodecad K12b as an example.

E_M81_I3A
05-01-2016, 06:57 PM
Here are 6 North African Jews profiles I already posted on another thread :

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/724165NAF2.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=724165NAF2.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/745852NAF3.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=745852NAF3.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/723031NAF4.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=723031NAF4.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/778180naf5.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=778180naf5.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/754567NAFJ1.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=754567NAFJ1.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/321301naf6.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=321301naf6.jpg)

Morges
05-01-2016, 07:06 PM
Im guessing the high european scores are from jews who were exiled from spain

And Italy (Sicily, Naples, Sardinia, Milan)

nee4speed111
05-04-2016, 05:04 AM
Here are the results of a Egyptian Karaite Jew

http://imgur.com/edit/process?imageid=07c140dc01030ecea1128b5291eac035&447958104987542.5&random=8506879448579294

http://i.imgur.com/clTAQ3x.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/7MWHdih.jpg?1

Sikeliot
05-04-2016, 05:08 AM
And Italy (Sicily, Naples, Sardinia, Milan)

These results are similar to Cypriots, in the amount of European versus Near Eastern.

Morges
05-04-2016, 07:48 AM
These results are similar to Cypriots, in the amount of European versus Near Eastern.

Except that Cypriots score more Middle Eastern and much less North African, while those North African Jews score actually a lot North African.

nee4speed111
05-05-2016, 12:00 AM
Here are the results of a Egyptian Karaite Jew

http://imgur.com/edit/process?imageid=07c140dc01030ecea1128b5291eac035&447958104987542.5&random=8506879448579294

http://i.imgur.com/clTAQ3x.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/7MWHdih.jpg?1

And their autosomal results http://i.imgur.com/aAB8QJn.jpg?1

Massam
05-22-2016, 03:43 PM
Tunisian jew, a friend of mine happy to contribute (maternal line from Sfax, paternal line from Tunis)

Mtdna: H3c
Y: J2

Ancestry Composition:

65.6%Middle Eastern & North African
42.0%North African
19.2%Middle Eastern
4.3%Broadly Middle Eastern & North African

32.9%European
Southern European
16.6%Italian
7.7%Broadly Southern European

2.9%Ashkenazi

Northwestern European
0.2%Broadly Northwestern European

5.5%Broadly European

0.3%Sub-Saharan African
0.3%West African
1.3%Unassigned

AJL
05-24-2016, 03:18 AM
Here are the results of a Egyptian Karaite Jew

http://imgur.com/edit/process?imageid=07c140dc01030ecea1128b5291eac035&447958104987542.5&random=8506879448579294

I would really like to see this gentleman's yDNA tested at Family Tree DNA. R1a has not, as far as I can tell, been found in any Karaites yet, though early R1b has. I am interested to see whether he falls into the major family of Z93 (which has a strong presence in Central and South Asia and a little into West Asia and Eastern Europe, but very low presence in the Levant and among Jews apart from Ashkenazi Levites), and more precisely what his exact subclade is.

{EDIT}R1a-Z93 is also seen in Algerian Jews.

E_M81_I3A
05-29-2016, 08:24 PM
Algerian Jew (Y-Dna : J2a1e - mtDna : HV0) :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/322249AlgerianJew.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=322249AlgerianJew.jpg)

Interesting to see that North African jews show very little or no Iberian ancestry. It seems that exiled Iberic Jewish families of the late 15th century who settled in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya had mainly a cultural but no genetic impact on existing jewish communities.

Morges
05-29-2016, 11:19 PM
Algerian Jew (Y-Dna : J2a1e - mtDna : HV0) :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/322249AlgerianJew.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=322249AlgerianJew.jpg)

Interesting to see that North African jews show very little or no Iberian ancestry. It seems that exiled Iberic Jewish families of the late 15th century who settled in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya had mainly a cultural but no genetic impact on existing jewish communities.

They score more italian than iberian, a lot of expelled jews came from some Italy states.

Massam
06-18-2016, 05:51 AM
Tunisian jew, a friend of mine happy to contribute (maternal line from Sfax, paternal line from Tunis)

Mtdna: H3c
Y: J2

Ancestry Composition:

65.6%Middle Eastern & North African
42.0%North African
19.2%Middle Eastern
4.3%Broadly Middle Eastern & North African

32.9%European
Southern European
16.6%Italian
7.7%Broadly Southern European

2.9%Ashkenazi

Northwestern European
0.2%Broadly Northwestern European

5.5%Broadly European

0.3%Sub-Saharan African
0.3%West African
1.3%Unassigned

Sorry guys, speaking with my friend's mother yesterday I learnt he has strong Libyan jewish ancestry on both male lines.
Quite an amazing job by Eurogenes K13 by the way:
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Libyan_Jewish @ 3.986118
2 Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.295649
3 Algerian_Jewish @ 6.887002
4 Sephardic_Jewish @ 7.146447
5 Italian_Jewish @ 8.181727
6 South_Italian @ 12.601559
7 Ashkenazi @ 12.714051

JosePinto1
06-28-2018, 06:42 PM
I myself as Haplogroup G and wonder if it stems from Jewish Ancestry