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TigerMW
11-30-2012, 04:14 PM
For those of you already deep clade tested and in the proper subclade projects, this is not something you need to be concerned with but I want to give everyone an update.

The “R1b and Subclades” Y DNA project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/ is changing focus a bit.

The project accepts predicted R1b, R1b1, R1b1a2 (etc.) people, advises them on deeper testing and helps members get placed into the proper subclade projects. R1b (R-M343) is too big and complex to handle with one set of project administrators so these subclade projects are essential. Effectively, R1b and Subclades is a “gateway” to these subclade projects, such as R1b-U106, R1b-P312, R1b-U152, R1b Asterisk, etc.

Please let R1b people who have not deep clade tested know about this project and ask them to read the updated "About This Group" Background, Goals and Results pages. Additional resources and help from project administrators can be found at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

We'll encourage them to do deeper testing and them send them to the appropriate major subclade projects or wherever they belong.

Mike W

Little bit
12-05-2012, 03:18 PM
I just joined my grandfather to this project. He is kit 259187, sitting on page 9 in the ungrouped section, Joseph Griffith b. 1875 MO d.1904 KY. Family lore says Welsh. I'm at a loss of what to do next, nothing seems to be jumping out at me. Here's what I wrote at FTDNA:


My grandpa's full results came in last night and it looks like it's going to be a challenge. Cullen's subclade predictor says:

Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
R1b-Leinster =>61% R1b =>14% R1b-North/South 2 =>9% R1b-S26 =>5% R1b-North/South 1 =>3% R1b-S.Irish =>2% R1b-E.Europe =>2% R1b-S28 =>2%

R1b-L371 appears unlikely but I still think ancestral origins shows a preference for Wales:
At 25 markers:
England 2 18784 < 0.1 %
Scotland 1 9058 < 0.1 %
United Kingdom 1 6891 < 0.1 %
United States 1 2006 < 0.1 %
Wales 4 1472 0.3%

At 67 markers:
England 1 16029 < 0.1 %
Scotland 1 8055 < 0.1 %
United States 1 1764 0.1%
Wales 2 1274 0.2%

Right? His highest percentages, though themselves tiny, are with Wales. I've got him in 2 projects so far:
Griffi(th)(n)(s)(ng)
R1b and Subclades

I know he's L-21 from 23andme, I might try and join him to L-21 Plus and see if anyone looks close. That was my first clue my husband would be L-226, DYS459 8-9 and DYS464 13-13-15-17 stood out like sore thumbs. Looking at the email that I got about Scots Modal, the first few markers look like a "no." He's got 7 three and four step matches - none of which are assigned a haplogroup at 67 markers! My Griffith perfect match disappeared but he was only tested to 12 markers. I still think he's significant because he shared my grandpa's apparently unusual DYS398ii***=32.

My grandpa is 85 and not in the best of health. I'd really love to solve this mystery for him so any help would be appreciated. :)

MJost
12-05-2012, 04:29 PM
I just joined my grandfather to this project. He is kit 259187, sitting on page 9 in the ungrouped section, Joseph Griffith b. 1875 MO d.1904 KY. Family lore says Welsh. I'm at a loss of what to do next, nothing seems to be jumping out at me. Here's what I wrote at FTDNA:



My grandpa is 85 and not in the best of health. I'd really love to solve this mystery for him so any help would be appreciated. :)

Hi Littlebit,

I took a look at your grandpa's haplotype and I did not see a close haplotype match. So I am going to recomment the Geno2.0 test to place him in a L21 subclade. He is an outlier on several different haplogroups.

MJost

Little bit
12-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Ugh, I was afraid that was going to be the answer. Thanks for checking:)

Btw, what is the theory of these outliers? Y lineages in the process of going extinct? Populations that broke off and remained separated from the main group for a period of time?

TigerMW
09-20-2013, 02:41 AM
Wow, I just about killed myself on this one. A month or two ago I took a pass at streamlining the R1b project subgroupings to mirror the large haplogroup projects, like x297, ht35new, P312, L21, U152 and U106 with the advice to join those projects. I also have the power to add people into those "sub" projects and I've done so (including U198 and L1). If any one sees anyone who need needs to be in one of these large projects let me know. I'm not going all the way down to the many sub-sub projects like DF49*, M222, L21, and on and on. There's just too many and that should be handled at the next step lower anyway.

What's just about killed me is going through the very large "ungrouped" not SNP tested people in the project. I've cleared "ungrouped" finally so I'll no what to look at when a new guy comes in. I've created to large subgroups of not SNP tested people. One is for those that have 67 STRs and one is for those who don't with the recommendation to go to 67 or more STRs. I'm just trying to move the ball forward with these people.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

Next, I'll be able to send out a broad to all of the less than 67 STR folks to encourage them to upgrade with a "carrot".

The carrot is if they are at 67 STRs I'll included them in a file of 67 STR (only) R1b SNP tested people. That way they are or their project administrators can simply select their haplotype on their row in the spreadsheet and have GD's calculated to all other people in the file. You can easily sort by GD next or use the macro button I've set up for that. The result lets you see who you are close to, of those which have nice slow STR matches with you and what SNPs they've already tested for. Of course, this would be useful for people who are interested in "rifle shot" attempts to find a terminal SNP.

I'm still going to push Geno 2 as a good coverage option for the "shotgun" approach.

I figure if they are really interested in fullgenomes they don't need me to tell them about it.

BTW, I periodically copy the large unawashed 67 STR people into a spreadsheet where I look to see if anyone matches my favorite paternal lineage STR signatures, 11-13, N-S and Irish Sea. Never know who you'll find out there.

Anyway, if you have R1b1a2 predicted people and they are interested in more testing, send them over to the R1b gateway project.

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 03:36 AM
Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11. I know they test for "Italo Gaulish" R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, "Celtic"(mainly British and Irish Celtic) R1b1a2a1a2c L21, and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. So i am X for all of those i know that R1b1a2a1a L11* is very rare. On this haplogroup predictor click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.bex.net%2Fjtcullen515%2Fh aplotest.htm&ei=0sE7UsrgF46sqwGb0oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNH5C1mxM6ZWF648BccLIPBTXmLHcg&sig2=tXNRpUI-d9hTb37LRmOQbQ&bvm=bv.52434380,d.aWM) everytime it said i am most likley R1b North South which i learned was later updated to be apart of Celtic(Mainly CeltIberian and Gaulish) R1b1a2a1a2c Df27. I could also possible be the very rare Germanic branch under R1b1a2a1a2 S116 which are R1b1a2a1a2d L238 and R1b1a2a1a2e Df19.

My paternal line all i know goes back to either Scotland or England. So to have R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, R1b1a2a1a2d L238, R1b1a2a1a2e Df19 are just as unlikely as having R1b1a2a1a L11* or R1b1a2a1a2 S116*. So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.

David
09-20-2013, 04:12 AM
Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11. I know they test for "Italo Gaulish" R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, "Celtic"(mainly British and Irish Celtic) R1b1a2a1a2c L21, and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. So i am X for all of those i know that R1b1a2a1a L11* is very rare. On this haplogroup predictor click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.bex.net%2Fjtcullen515%2Fh aplotest.htm&ei=0sE7UsrgF46sqwGb0oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNH5C1mxM6ZWF648BccLIPBTXmLHcg&sig2=tXNRpUI-d9hTb37LRmOQbQ&bvm=bv.52434380,d.aWM) everytime it said i am most likley R1b North South which i learned was later updated to be apart of Celtic(Mainly CeltIberian and Gaulish) R1b1a2a1a2c Df27. I could also possible be the very rare Germanic branch under R1b1a2a1a2 S116 which are R1b1a2a1a2d L238 and R1b1a2a1a2e Df19.

My paternal line all i know goes back to either Scotland or England. So to have R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, R1b1a2a1a2d L238, R1b1a2a1a2e Df19 are just as unlikely as having R1b1a2a1a L11* or R1b1a2a1a2 S116*. So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.

Geno 2.0's R-P310 predictions tend to be dodgy because of no-calls and the fact they are operating with FTDNA's out-of-date haplotree. If you send me a copy of your raw data file, I can look at your no-calls in particular and see what the possibilities might be. See:
http://daver.info/geno/

Regards,
david

TigerMW
09-20-2013, 04:48 AM
Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11....
So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to those ethnicities you are seeing, I guess in the Geno 2.0 reports. I'm kind of surprised they do that. L11 is older than the break up of those language sets and some weren't really discernible for some time, which gets to be quite a discussion in itself. You'll probably like the P312=Celtic/U106=Germanic thread under R1b General if you are interested in that.

P310 and P311 are on the same branch as L11, so yes, we consider them to be phylogenetically equivalent.

Unfortunately, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312 and DF27 although it does test for a number of SNPs downstream of those. Let's see what David finds. You know never know.

Do you have kit # you can share and a project you are in? I'll look to see if there are any common off-modal (STR signature) patterns.

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 07:45 AM
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those ethnicities you are seeing, I guess in the Geno 2.0 reports. I'm kind of surprised they do that. L11 is older than the break up of those language sets and some weren't really discernible for some time, which gets to be quite a discussion in itself. You'll probably like the P312=Celtic/U106=Germanic thread under R1b General if you are interested in that.

P310 and P311 are on the same branch as L11, so yes, we consider them to be phylogenetically equivalent.

Unfortunately, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312 and DF27 although it does test for a number of SNPs downstream of those. Let's see what David finds. You know never know.

Do you have kit # you can share and a project you are in? I'll look to see if there are any common off-modal (STR signature) patterns.

Geno 2.0 does not make up those ethnicity names i did. U can look at FTDNA R1b page click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results). THey agree with what i am saying. Also look at a thread i made on another website called Germanic Italo Celts (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93100-Germanic-Italo-Celts) I am going to edit it a ton there are alot of mistakes and make one for this website.

David
09-20-2013, 08:46 AM
U can look at FTDNA R1b page click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results). THey agree with what i am saying.
LOL, I suspect Mike is well acquainted with that page... :faint:

GoldenHind
09-20-2013, 12:40 PM
Unfortunately, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312 and DF27 although it does test for a number of SNPs downstream of those. Let's see what David finds. You know never know.



As you say, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312, so those who are P312** or DF27* get a P310 result there, as I did. I think one of these is at least as likely, if not more likely than L11*

TigerMW
09-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Geno 2.0 does not make up those ethnicity names i did. U can look at FTDNA R1b page click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results). THey agree with what i am saying. Also look at a thread i made on another website called Germanic Italo Celts (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93100-Germanic-Italo-Celts) I am going to edit it a ton there are alot of mistakes and make one for this website.

As far as the R1b FTDNA project "Results" page, yes, David, is correct.... "they" is now just "me".
Please note that I called it an "analysis and commentary." It was written by Tibor Feher who is still a project admin but had to diminish his activities so is not doing much with the project. I do not entirely agree with what Tibor has written but it is interesting and he is clear that this is his synthesis, now slightly dated. He is very sharp and his synapsis is excellent, but let us not extrapolate it beyond its intent.

I should probably delete it or add additional commentary to highlight the caveats. His descriptions relate to modern distributions, not necessarily to what ancient people spoke.


Analysis and Commentary of R1b Subclades

A comprehensive update on status of our knowledge on our haplogroup as of January 2011:

(Written by Tibor Fehér: Please note that the data below is my synthesis of what has been achieved by numerous professional and amateur genetic researchers, among whom there is no consensus on several aspects of the R1b history. Therefore, for everything written below, I take the responsibility when someone is in disagreement. Plus, all these should be treated as “the best what we can say know”, not as “unquestionable facts forever”.)

I don't think Tibor is asserting any strong exclusive, pure or ancient relationships of haplogroups to cultures. There are authors, like Jean M (who posts here), who are producing books that go in to all kinds of ancient cultural possibilities.

Here is an example of what I mean, Tibor said "R1b-U152 is the Alpine and Italian subclade of P312". I think he meant U152 is found to be very high frequency in modern Italian speaking populations, particularly in the Alpine region. I do NOT think he meant to imply that anything like
1) the first Italic speaker was U152 or
2) all Italians are U152 or
3) all U152 are of Italian heritage or
4) U152 couldn't be in ancent Germanic or Celtic speaking populations or
5) zero U152 reached Iberia early.

We should not overgeneralize his speculations or correlate them too specifically for all times and all places.

Perhaps I should delete that whole narrative as perhaps its time has past. Any comments from anyone? When I get Jean's book, perhaps, I'll just replace the narrative with a couple of her quotes.

Please don't misunderstand. I agree with what most of Tibor has written. I just don't think we should go too far with with the modern ethnic labels as related to ancient haplogroups like U152, U106, P312. At the time of the Most Recent Common Ancestors (MRCAs) of those people I am pretty sure there was no such thing as a Celtic, German or Italian. I think they probably were speaking various dialects of the Proto-Indo-European language or its derivatives early on, but these ancient Bronze age people were probably a mixed bag of haplogroups and some apparently learned other languages like Proto-Basque, Turkic, Semitc languages and the like. When and how I don't know but that's why Jean's book will be a good read.

TigerMW
09-26-2013, 03:26 AM
Wow, I just about killed myself on this one. A month or two ago I took a pass at streamlining the R1b project subgroupings to mirror the large haplogroup projects, like x297, ht35new, P312, L21, U152 and U106 with the advice to join those projects. I also have the power to add people into those "sub" projects and I've done so (including U198 and L1). If any one sees anyone who need needs to be in one of these large projects let me know. I'm not going all the way down to the many sub-sub projects like DF49*, M222, L21, and on and on. There's just too many and that should be handled at the next step lower anyway.

What's just about killed me is going through the very large "ungrouped" not SNP tested people in the project. I've cleared "ungrouped" finally so I'll no what to look at when a new guy comes in. I've created to large subgroups of not SNP tested people. One is for those that have 67 STRs and one is for those who don't with the recommendation to go to 67 or more STRs. I'm just trying to move the ball forward with these people.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

Next, I'll be able to send out a broad to all of the less than 67 STR folks to encourage them to upgrade with a "carrot".

The carrot is if they are at 67 STRs I'll included them in a file of 67 STR (only) R1b SNP tested people. That way they are or their project administrators can simply select their haplotype on their row in the spreadsheet and have GD's calculated to all other people in the file. You can easily sort by GD next or use the macro button I've set up for that. The result lets you see who you are close to, of those which have nice slow STR matches with you and what SNPs they've already tested for. Of course, this would be useful for people who are interested in "rifle shot" attempts to find a terminal SNP.

I'm still going to push Geno 2 as a good coverage option for the "shotgun" approach.

I figure if they are really interested in fullgenomes they don't need me to tell them about it.

BTW, I periodically copy the large unawashed 67 STR people into a spreadsheet where I look to see if anyone matches my favorite paternal lineage STR signatures, 11-13, N-S and Irish Sea. Never know who you'll find out there.

Anyway, if you have R1b1a2 predicted people and they are interested in more testing, send them over to the R1b gateway project.

I sent out a broadcast email to the specific subgroup with less than 67 STRs, asking them to consider upgrading to 67 or 111. There are have been quite a few questions and several orders so hopefully its worth it.

lgmayka
09-26-2013, 08:08 PM
I sent out a broadcast email to the specific subgroup with less than 67 STRs, asking them to consider upgrading to 67 or 111. There are have been quite a few questions and several orders so hopefully its worth it.
Your email mentioned a Yahoo group that does not accept new members. My attempt to join brings up a dialog box with questions, but the button for Send Request is grayed out.

I tried with both Google Chrome and Internet Explorer, so it is not just a browser issue.

TigerMW
09-26-2013, 09:45 PM
Your email mentioned a Yahoo group that does not accept new members. My attempt to join brings up a dialog box with questions, but the button for Send Request is grayed out.

I tried with both Google Chrome and Internet Explorer, so it is not just a browser issue.

Perhaps you have to be signed into Yahoo before the "Send Request" is active. PM me your email ID and I'll send you an invitation that all you have to do is accept (I think.)

EDIT: I just checked and found your email ID. I sent you an invitation from the yahoo group web site, itself.

lgmayka
09-26-2013, 10:02 PM
Perhaps you have to be signed into Yahoo before the "Send Request" is active.
That's not the problem. I had already done that.


EDIT: I just checked and found your email ID. I sent you an invitation from the yahoo group web site, itself.
Whichever email address you found must have been the wrong one. I'll PM you.

lgmayka
09-26-2013, 10:05 PM
Actually, I can't PM you. You have exceeded your message quota.

TigerMW
10-23-2013, 10:40 PM
I've updated the R1b-All_67STR_Haplotypes spreadsheet file to help R1b1a2 predicted people compare with others in R1b haplogroup projects who have done deeper SNP testing. If a predicted person finds a good GD match at 67 markers and sees some common STR off-modal patterns this could help them determine an SNP testing plan for the rifle-shot approach.

The file is out under "More" and then under "Links" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

Also, the R1b-Early_Haplotypes file is in the same set of links. This is includes all of the R1b x297 and R1b ht35 project people and various related people even if they aren't in those projects. In this file, I have people regardless of how many STRs they have.

I have all of the P312xL21 SNP tested people in the R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes files under this group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/

All of the L21 tested people are in R1b-L21_Haplotypes here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/

All of the U106 tested people are in the R1b-U106_Haplotypes file here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/

From a files perspective, R1b-Early + R1b-P312xL21 + R1b-L21 + R1b-U106 equals all of the SNP tested R1b. I do accept those if the respective R1b haplogroup project administrator lists someone as confirmed for an SNP, thru 23andMe or BritainDNA or whoever.

I don't necessarily advocate the rifle-shot "one at a time" approach for everyone. Shotgun approaches of low-moderate priced options like Geno 2 and Chomo2 and higher priced full dynamite approaches like Full Genomes are also options, depending on goals and budgets.

R.Rocca
10-24-2013, 06:42 PM
I've updated the R1b-All_67STR_Haplotypes spreadsheet file to help R1b1a2 predicted people compare with others in R1b haplogroup projects who have done deeper SNP testing. If a predicted person finds a good GD match at 67 markers and sees some common STR off-modal patterns this could help them determine an SNP testing plan for the rifle-shot approach.

The file is out under "More" and then under "Links" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

Also, the R1b-Early_Haplotypes file is in the same set of links. This is includes all of the R1b x297 and R1b ht35 project people and various related people even if they aren't in those projects. In this file, I have people regardless of how many STRs they have.

I have all of the P312xL21 SNP tested people in the R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes files under this group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/

All of the L21 tested people are in R1b-L21_Haplotypes here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/

All of the U106 tested people are in the R1b-U106_Haplotypes file here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/

From a files perspective, R1b-Early + R1b-P312xL21 + R1b-L21 + R1b-U106 equals all of the SNP tested R1b. I do accept those if the respective R1b haplogroup project administrator lists someone as confirmed for an SNP, thru 23andMe or BritainDNA or whoever.

I don't necessarily advocate the rifle-shot "one at a time" approach for everyone. Shotgun approaches of low-moderate priced options like Geno 2 and Chomo2 and higher priced full dynamite approaches like Full Genomes are also options, depending on goals and budgets.

Thanks Mike, and an a few slightly OT questions:

1. Can you tell me what the latest "R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes" spreadsheet is? The last one I see is from July, but then again, Yahoo's files/attachments/links gets a little complicated, so I may be missing it.
2. Can you tell me where you got the mutation rates you use in your spreadsheets?

TigerMW
10-24-2013, 06:58 PM
... 1. Can you tell me what the latest "R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes" spreadsheet is? The last one I see is from July, but then again, Yahoo's files/attachments/links gets a little complicated, so I may be missing it.

I generally update the L21 and P312xL21 files every 1 to 2 weeks. The date on the "Links" in Yahoo Groups is the date that I last changed or created the actual URL/link. Those dates are pretty much useless. I'm actually putting the files in dropbox and never changing the underlying URLs. In other words, you can bookmark those URLs and forget about going to Yahoo Links, which is a bit of a pain now days. I really just use that Yahoo Group to screen out just anybody (in other words non-project members) from accessing the data. The last update to the P312xL21 file was 22Oct2013.

The R1b-L21-Project, R1b-P312-Project, R1b-DF27-Project, R1b-YDNA is where I generally post a new entry when I update the files. I use those for project type news and project file storage.


2. Can you tell me where you got the mutation rates you use in your spreadsheets?
I don't use the mutation rates in any calculations. I decided to stay out of the TMRCA business as I've discussed myself to death on that and avoiding mutation rates helps diminish tedious arguments. The "Rates" tab/worksheet is where those are stored along with modal haplotypes, etc. I have references there to where I got them. I used Chandler and Little for 68-111 I don't remember. Mark J is a better references for the latest and greatest mutation rates. I originally used the rates to re-order the STR off-modal columns from slowest to faster, but the order is not precise, i.e. I shove multi-copy markers to the right. Essentially I use the STR off-modal columns to look for STR patterns and generally slower markers are more reliable than faster ones for that.

Londeree
05-30-2018, 05:20 PM
I took the R1b-M343 back bone test and FTDNA now has my Haplogroup as ZZ19_1. What should I do next?

swid
05-30-2018, 05:57 PM
Join the DF27 Project, if you haven't already: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about/background

You'll be categorized somewhere in the 2f* sections, and the admins there will be able to provide advice on any additional downstream SNP testing.