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Heber
04-30-2017, 10:41 PM
I have scanned the thread looking for the answer to the following question or anything that might hint at it, but I was wondering if anyone could provide insight. Has it yet been quantified how much "foreign" (Norman, English, Scottish, Scandinavian, etc.) influence exists in different parts of Ireland, or which regions have the least?

The PCA plot with all of the four provinces of Ireland, with the two Ulster clusters, seems to imply that the native Ulster cluster has the least (not Connacht, as many would assume, which seems to indeed shift toward Britain by comparison due to Norman input mediated through England and Wales), followed by Munster. However, another plot showed two main clusters in Ireland, splitting across County Clare and then eastward. Might this imply some places in Ireland were always more "British" like than others, even before any English settled the island's shores?

Also, how do we reconcile Connacht having the most homogenous y-dna profile (almost all of one subclade of R1b) but not being that with the least foreign input?

Ulster
http://pin.it/WeQjmEf
Connacht
http://pin.it/1-FR1t3
Munster
http://pin.it/W5WJwJY
Leinster
http://pin.it/QOqJ1ls
Midlands
http://pin.it/P8ZMImc
IDA
http://pin.it/TwNqvZc
Viking
http://pin.it/mrFrXrx
Norman
http://pin.it/5Av4CWF
Anglo Saxon
http://pin.it/FdtXaLY

Sikeliot
04-30-2017, 10:48 PM
Ulster
http://pin.it/WeQjmEf
Connacht
http://pin.it/1-FR1t3
Munster
http://pin.it/W5WJwJY
Leinster
http://pin.it/QOqJ1ls
Midlands
http://pin.it/P8ZMImc
IDA
http://pin.it/TwNqvZc

This is what seems to be the most useful in answering my question:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ed/70/9a/ed709af3a175d04715523e8e49e6f61f.jpg

I think one of the "Ulster" clusters should be called Leinster (I would guess the one between Connacht and Munster is Leinster). Either way, if we take the red component being higher and blue/green components lower as meaning more "native Irish" then it would appear a large part of both the Ulster and Munster clusters are more "native" Irish than Connacht.

Someone said that the red component is highest in Connacht, which must be an average, but the INDIVIDUALS with the absolute highest amount seem to be in Munster and Ulster, not Connacht. The blue South Euro component is lowest in Connacht, signifying people's claims of a largely Basque-like influence there are false (England and even Scotland have more South European affinity than Ireland does), and much of Munster and Ulster have less of the green component than Connacht.

Therefore, it is imperative to rethink conventional wisdom about Irish genetics that imply the entire western coast is untouched by foreign influences.

Jessie
05-01-2017, 02:12 AM
This is what seems to be the most useful in answering my question:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ed/70/9a/ed709af3a175d04715523e8e49e6f61f.jpg

I think one of the "Ulster" clusters should be called Leinster (I would guess the one between Connacht and Munster is Leinster). Either way, if we take the red component being higher and blue/green components lower as meaning more "native Irish" then it would appear a large part of both the Ulster and Munster clusters are more "native" Irish than Connacht.

Someone said that the red component is highest in Connacht, which must be an average, but the INDIVIDUALS with the absolute highest amount seem to be in Munster and Ulster, not Connacht. The blue South Euro component is lowest in Connacht, signifying people's claims of a largely Basque-like influence there are false (England and even Scotland have more South European affinity than Ireland does), and much of Munster and Ulster have less of the green component than Connacht.

Therefore, it is imperative to rethink conventional wisdom about Irish genetics that imply the entire western coast is untouched by foreign influences.

The only way to really know is with ancient dna. There might have always been some slight internal differences in Ireland.

Heber
05-01-2017, 07:36 AM
The red Atlantic seaboard component was highest in Connacht followed by Munster, Ulster (Gaelic), Leinster, Ulster (Planter). It is interesting that the Ancestry Communities project with a cohort of 770K and thousands of Irish samples appears to confirm this distribution.
Here is the PCA from the Irish Traveller paper.

15492

15493

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep42187#f3

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 02:02 PM
The red Atlantic seaboard component was highest in Connacht followed by Munster, Ulster (Gaelic), Leinster, Ulster (Planter).

Do you have the numerical figures? Going by estimates from looking, it is higher in Munster than Connacht.

Jessie
05-01-2017, 03:15 PM
Do you have the numerical figures? Going by estimates from looking, it is higher in Munster than Connacht.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ed/70/9a/ed709af3a175d04715523e8e49e6f61f.jpg

Looking at this parts of Munster and parts of Ulster have the highest red component. I'd say it was Donegal with the highest red in Ulster. The segment marked Ulster next to Connacht must be Leinster.

If you look at this map as well (which was posted by Heber) it shows the separation of the two Ulster e.g. Ulster 13 clusters with Scotland and Ulster 12 is the most distant cluster more distant than any other Irish regions to Scotland.

6350

So yes it looks like the biggest differences are within Ulster. I don't know who said that the entire west coast of Ireland was untouched by foreign influences though.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 03:28 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ed/70/9a/ed709af3a175d04715523e8e49e6f61f.jpg

Looking at this parts of Munster and parts of Ulster have the highest red component. I'd say it was Donegal with the highest red in Ulster. The segment marked Ulster next to Connacht must be Leinster.

If you look at this map as well (which was posted by Heber) it shows the separation of the two Ulster e.g. Ulster 13 clusters with Scotland and Ulster 12 is the most distant cluster more distant than any other Irish regions to Scotland.

6350

So yes it looks like the biggest differences are within Ulster. I don't know who said that the entire west coast of Ireland was untouched by foreign influences though.

I agree with everything here.
It would seem Norman, Scandinavian, and British influence did reach Connacht, because they shift significantly toward Britain compared the Ulster12 cluster.

The people from Munster who score the highest of the red component could be from Kerry or the southwest, given that this region is one of the Irish speaking regions today.

kevinduffy
05-01-2017, 11:00 PM
Therefore, it is imperative to rethink conventional wisdom about Irish genetics that imply the entire western coast is untouched by foreign influences.

No one has ever said that the west of Ireland was untouched by foreign influences. The Vikings, for example, were very active in Connacht.

http://www.museum.ie/Country-Life/Exhibitions/Current-Exhibitions/The-Hoard-and-the-Sword/Vikings-in-Mayo-and-Connacht

kevinduffy
05-01-2017, 11:05 PM
Also, how do we reconcile Connacht having the most homogenous y-dna profile (almost all of one subclade of R1b) but not being that with the least foreign input?

Foreign women love Connacht men? :)

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 11:22 PM
Foreign women love Connacht men? :)

Or English slave women were in the region. Either way, a significant chunk of Munster and Ulster are further from Britain so something must be true :lol:

jonathanmcg1990
05-02-2017, 12:07 PM
This is what seems to be the most useful in answering my question:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ed/70/9a/ed709af3a175d04715523e8e49e6f61f.jpg

I think one of the "Ulster" clusters should be called Leinster (I would guess the one between Connacht and Munster is Leinster). Either way, if we take the red component being higher and blue/green components lower as meaning more "native Irish" then it would appear a large part of both the Ulster and Munster clusters are more "native" Irish than Connacht.

Someone said that the red component is highest in Connacht, which must be an average, but the INDIVIDUALS with the absolute highest amount seem to be in Munster and Ulster, not Connacht. The blue South Euro component is lowest in Connacht, signifying people's claims of a largely Basque-like influence there are false (England and even Scotland have more South European affinity than Ireland does), and much of Munster and Ulster have less of the green component than Connacht.

Therefore, it is imperative to rethink conventional wisdom about Irish genetics that imply the entire western coast is untouched by foreign influences.

I would take the descending view with Basque DNA and Irish DNA are similar to a degree which each other. On the chart it shows that Irish have high Western Seaborne element in their DNA I also would like to think the Basque region has a quite a high Western Seaborne component which I think is a Celtic influence. But the difference would be the Basque region would have a sizable chunk of the Southern European element where as Irish would have significant chunk of the Northern European chunk.

To future back this up in in POBI project the SFS31 is highest in the Celtic fringes of the UK and is FRA12 which seems to be present in modern day Central and Southern France which seems to be Celtic in nature is absent in non Celtic fringe of the UK.

Secondly in Gedmatch on one of the calculators Eurogenes V2 15 their is a reference population Atlantic. Which I think is a indication of Western Seaborne/Celtic ancestry its over 40% in the Basque and is next highest in 30% - 32% in Spanish and Irish reference populations. I am from mixed Ulster heritage and I score 31.1% for the Atlantic element in that calculator.

Jessie
05-02-2017, 12:59 PM
I would take the descending view with Basque DNA and Irish DNA are similar to a degree which each other. On the chart it shows that Irish have high Western Seaborne element in their DNA I also would like to think the Basque region has a quite a high Western Seaborne component which I think is a Celtic influence. But the difference would be the Basque region would have a sizable chunk of the Southern European element where as Irish would have significant chunk of the Northern European chunk.

To future back this up in in POBI project the SFS31 is highest in the Celtic fringes of the UK and is FRA12 which seems to be present in modern day Central and Southern France which seems to be Celtic in nature is absent in non Celtic fringe of the UK.

Secondly in Gedmatch on one of the calculators Eurogenes V2 15 their is a reference population Atlantic. Which I think is a indication of Western Seaborne/Celtic ancestry its over 40% in the Basque and is next highest in 30% - 32% in Spanish and Irish reference populations. I am from mixed Ulster heritage and I score 31.1% for the Atlantic element in that calculator.

Going over old ground here but this is an admixture graph from the Traveller paper.

https://i.imgsafe.org/da75c985ea.png

Genetics from around 2006 using ydna linked the Basque and Irish but now there is really no particular link. It was based on both having high proportions of R1b ydna and thinking that R1b was Neolithic and around in Western Europe during the Ice Age. We now know that R1b only came into Western Europe in the Bronze Age from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes so there is no special link with the Celts and Basque. Anyway that's it in a nutshell. There are lots of discussions on this forum about R1b and even Irish genetics but the above admixture graph shows that the Insular Celts are not particularly similar to the Spanish and I know that the Irish are very distant from the Basque autosomally.

If one looks at a dna cluster map it is quite easy to see that these populations don't have any "special" connection.

Here's one showing most European countries.https://evolutionistx.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/genetic_map_of_europe.png

Heber
05-02-2017, 01:59 PM
We should be looking at the IndoEuropean (Proto Celtic) side of the Atlantic Bronze Age map proposed by Koch.
15529

This was driven by the Atlantic Cist Tradition similar to Rathlin
15530
15531

And like Rathlin we will find CHG and R1b in Bronze Age samples.
15532

The Genographic Austurias project found majority R1b-DF27 and R1b-L21.

Jessie
05-02-2017, 02:34 PM
We should be looking at the IndoEuropean (Proto Celtic) side of the Atlantic Bronze Age map proposed by Koch.
15529

This was driven by the Atlantic Cist Tradition similar to Rathlin
15530
15531

And like Rathlin we will find CHG and R1b in Bronze Age samples.
15532

The Genographic Austurias project found majority R1b-DF27 and R1b-L21.

France is more than likely the connector between all these areas. I doubt there is any direct contact because genetics doesn't show it. I think people still believe in some Celtic connections and that these populations were R1b but history and autosomal genetics doesn't support it. Even Rathlin who was Bronze Age shows more a connection with Central Europe and Ireland than anything else. It is just very clear if anyone has been looking at the genetic side of things. In the Neolithic the Ballynahatty woman was closer to Sardinians and Southern Spanish but with Rathlin e.g Bronze Age they are more Northern and Eastern genetically.

fridurich
05-03-2017, 04:58 AM
Jessie, thanks for your reply. Yes, the map in your attachment does show that the Ulster 12 cluster autosomal dna wise is more distant from Scotland than any other Irish cluster. However, there are some men with Irish Gaelic surnames from Ulster and/or their descendants that share Ydna ancestry with some Scottish men.

For example my last name is O'Hair and I recently have been confirmed for m222 and a subdivision of it called s588. A distant O'Hair cousin is confirmed also as m222>s588. However he is also confirmed s603, one snp below s588. I could get my s603 results any day. He and I both descend from Michael O'Hair, said to be from Newry, or close to it, in County Down and who a Virginia court document showed was born in 1749. There are other Irish surnames that are s588 or both s588 and s603 including some northern Ui Neill surnames.

There are also Scottish surnames that are s588 or s588 and S603. For example the present chief of the Struan Robertsons (Clann Donnachaidh) and the chief of the Perthshire Fergusons are S603. The interesting thing is that although autosomally dna wise, the Ulster Gaelic Irish on the map you mention, appear more distant to the Scots than any of the other Irish clusters, yet undeniably, there are some Ulster Gaelic Irishmen who share Ydna ancestry with some of the Scots. If I remember right, it seems that yfull estimated that s603 began about 450 A.D. So if that date is right, that is about when the common Ydna ancestor of these Gaelic Irish Ulstermen and their Scottish cousins lived.

I'm not going to get into the argument about whether they came from Ireland to Scotland or vice versa, but one thing is for sure, they had a common Ydna ancestor who lived some where! There may be other Ydna haplogroups that some Gaelic Irish Ulster men have that some Scottish men share with them. I would say there probably are. As far as which country is closest related to Ireland autosomal DNAwise, the people of Ireland in general, appear to be most closely related to the Scots, in general.

Someone earlier in this post mentioned English slave women. I haven't seen anyone else on this thread that seems to think that could be a significant contributor to Irish autosomal DNA. However, I think it possibly could have made a significant contribution. From what I have read, there seems to have been a lot of English slaves in Ireland. Slavery in Ireland lasted at least as far back as ancient times up until about the 12th century. Well that is a really long time and would seem to make it possible for significant female English autosomal genetic input over the centuries.

J1 DYS388=13
05-03-2017, 05:31 AM
Regarding "English" into Ireland, I have an originally "English" type of mtDNA which has an age estimated in two academic papers as 2,693 years and 2,900 years, and it appears in all areas of Ireland. I don't have an explanation for that. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Y8ZJIjblMPzmNesm37Ea7n3Yv3w&usp=sharing

Jessie
05-03-2017, 06:13 AM
Jessie, thanks for your reply. Yes, the map in your attachment does show that the Ulster 12 cluster autosomal dna wise is more distant from Scotland than any other Irish cluster. However, there are some men with Irish Gaelic surnames from Ulster and/or their descendants that share Ydna ancestry with some Scottish men.

For example my last name is O'Hair and I recently have been confirmed for m222 and a subdivision of it called s588. A distant O'Hair cousin is confirmed also as m222>s588. However he is also confirmed s603, one snp below s588. I could get my s603 results any day. He and I both descend from Michael O'Hair, said to be from Newry, or close to it, in County Down and who a Virginia court document showed was born in 1749. There are other Irish surnames that are s588 or both s588 and s603 including some northern Ui Neill surnames.

There are also Scottish surnames that are s588 or s588 and S603. For example the present chief of the Struan Robertsons (Clann Donnachaidh) and the chief of the Perthshire Fergusons are S603. The interesting thing is that although autosomally dna wise, the Ulster Gaelic Irish on the map you mention, appear more distant to the Scots than any of the other Irish clusters, yet undeniably, there are some Ulster Gaelic Irishmen who share Ydna ancestry with some of the Scots. If I remember right, it seems that yfull estimated that s603 began about 450 A.D. So if that date is right, that is about when the common Ydna ancestor of these Gaelic Irish Ulstermen and their Scottish cousins lived.

I'm not going to get into the argument about whether they came from Ireland to Scotland or vice versa, but one thing is for sure, they had a common Ydna ancestor who lived some where! There may be other Ydna haplogroups that some Gaelic Irish Ulster men have that some Scottish men share with them. I would say there probably are. As far as which country is closest related to Ireland autosomal DNAwise, the people of Ireland in general, appear to be most closely related to the Scots, in general.

Someone earlier in this post mentioned English slave women. I haven't seen anyone else on this thread that seems to think that could be a significant contributor to Irish autosomal DNA. However, I think it possibly could have made a significant contribution. From what I have read, there seems to have been a lot of English slaves in Ireland. Slavery in Ireland lasted at least as far back as ancient times up until about the 12th century. Well that is a really long time and would seem to make it possible for significant female English autosomal genetic input over the centuries.

Yes agree with all you've said. There was also Scots in places like Donegal (Plantation) and gallowglass families. I don't doubt that there has always been Scots connections there. My brother is S588 and they are all seemingly Scots and Irish in that branch. I hope that when the Irish DNA Atlas finally is published we will find out more. :) I'm presuming that Ulster 12 is Donegal but that is just an assumption on my part.

Dubhthach
05-03-2017, 10:10 AM
It's worth pointing out that the "Scotland circle" in that chart is specifically tied to the Lowland Scottish cluster. If you look closely you can see "Britain points" (they don't spilt them into region) that are falling within the Irish cluster. It's probable these individuals are actually Highland samples (that fell into Highland/North of Ireland cluster in PoBI)

Dubhthach
05-03-2017, 10:29 AM
Leaving that aside until 1607 the vast bulk of what we now term Ulster was outside of major influence from the Colony. Even in case of Antrim/Down (the last remaining piece of historic province of Ulaidh) the area was mostly subject to "Reconquista" during the late 14th century as the Earldom of Ulster collapsed as result of the Burke (de Burgo) civil war.

Here's a generic map of situation at the zenith of the colony around 1300. The 14th century marked a major setback for it, first with the Bruce Invasion (and the accompanying famine) and followed by the Black Death during the 1340's.

A map like below though not the best does give a general view at the level of lordship in Ireland in last half of 13th century.
http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Normans-in-Ireland/photos-norman/ireland-1250.jpg
15540

What we have to remember of course in Connacht is that the Normans in shape of Burkes "went native" in big way but still consider themselves as "English" they retained lordships in Galway and Mayo right until today in case of Mayo (Earl of Mayo) and up until 1916 in case of Galway (Earl of Clanricarde). That and Connacht contains at least 4 walled Norman towns (three in Galway alone).

Sikeliot
05-03-2017, 04:42 PM
A map like below though not the best does give a general view at the level of lordship in Ireland in last half of 13th century.
http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Normans-in-Ireland/photos-norman/ireland-1250.jpg
15540

What we have to remember of course in Connacht is that the Normans in shape of Burkes "went native" in big way but still consider themselves as "English" they retained lordships in Galway and Mayo right until today in case of Mayo (Earl of Mayo) and up until 1916 in case of Galway (Earl of Clanricarde). That and Connacht contains at least 4 walled Norman towns (three in Galway alone).

This might explain the general pattern we see today. If the Catholics of northern Ireland, as well as some people in Munster, have the most native Irish DNA, we can see regions in both locations that did not have much of the Norman influence. Then, if you consider additional British influence in Leinster, their placement on the PCA plot makes sense, being north of Connacht.

Wasn't it said that at one point, Ulster was the most 'Irish' part of Ireland?

Robert McBride
05-03-2017, 05:56 PM
"It is certainly ironic , therefore - given the traditional depiction of Brain (Boru) as having driven the vikings out of Ireland - that it was his family that above all others was the champion of towns, those Trojan horses inherited from the vikings, making them quintessentially their own for the purpose of familial and dynastic aggrandisement.
As we have seen , at the height of the Viking age the Ui Neill had been resilient enough to thwart the emergence of permanent Viking bases in Leth Cuinn , while their southern counterparts had had to tolerate what they could not force out.
But by the time of Brian's death at Clontarf those footholds were flourishing towns , the greatest concentrations of wealth on the island ; and the southern kings prospered through transaction with them, as the Ui Neill , bemoaning perhaps their shortsighted inhospitality , saw their former vigour wither for lack of resources and their ancient primacy scorned"

"Brian Boru and the battle of Clontarf " by Sean Duffy

Heber
05-03-2017, 06:34 PM
When I spoke to AncestryDNA recently at WDYTYA, they confirmed that the highest percentage of "100% Irish" or near 100% Irish results were from Connacht. I have contacted them again to see if I can get specific numbers.
The granularity of the results is truly extraordinary. In Ireland alone, there are (so far) seventeen different subgroups, ranging from East Donegal to West Cork to North Connacht to Connemara.
Here are my results.

http://pin.it/7TtmWpf

Sikeliot
05-03-2017, 08:32 PM
When I spoke to AncestryDNA recently at WDYTYA, they confirmed that the highest percentage of "100% Irish" or near 100% Irish results were from Connacht. I have contacted them again to see if I can get specific numbers.

If Connacht is used as the sample for "Irish" (not saying they are but I can see how someone would use them, because of historical ideas they might have about the region), then they will score 100% due to calculator effect.

Heber
05-03-2017, 08:51 PM
If Connacht is used as the sample for "Irish" (not saying they are but I can see how someone would use them, because of historical ideas they might have about the region), then they will score 100% due to calculator effect.

Here is the methodology used. Very impressive and the cohort exceptional.

"Instead of considering the IBD connection between each pair of customers in isolation, we simultaneously analyze more than 20 billion connections identified among over 2 million AncestryDNA customers as a large genetic network."

http://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/communities/whitepaper

kevinduffy
05-03-2017, 09:24 PM
Yes agree with all you've said. There was also Scots in places like Donegal (Plantation) and gallowglass families. I don't doubt that there has always been Scots connections there. My brother is S588 and they are all seemingly Scots and Irish in that branch. I hope that when the Irish DNA Atlas finally is published we will find out more. :) I'm presuming that Ulster 12 is Donegal but that is just an assumption on my part.

I believe that the genetic evidence shows that it is Highland Scots who are most closely related to the native Irish while other Scottish populations show significant Germanic/Scandinavian genetic input.

Jessie
05-04-2017, 01:16 AM
I believe that the genetic evidence shows that it is Highland Scots who are most closely related to the native Irish while other Scottish populations show significant Germanic/Scandinavian genetic input.

In the PoBI it shows that the Highland Scots/Catholic Northern Irish have more Scandinavian influence than the South Scots. Not sure what the historical reasons are but it could be ancient.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

Someone has done a breakdown on the different components. From memory it was sktibo.

From this they appear to have more of the Norway component.

http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

Dubhthach
05-04-2017, 08:45 AM
In the PoBI it shows that the Highland Scots/Catholic Northern Irish have more Scandinavian influence than the South Scots. Not sure what the historical reasons are but it could be ancient.


Well the Highland sample set include people from the Hebrides, which after all was conquered by the Vikings and became a norse speaking zone before been re-gaelicized (though there is debate that the Outer Hebrides hadn't spoken Old Irish but Pictish in the pre-Viking period).

I'd imagine most of the Scandinavian influence in that cluster is thus coming from the Scots samples and not the Northern Irish ones.

Recall this map from ScotlandsDNA, though only looking at an arbitrary number of Y-DNA lineages which they classed as Norse:

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5994c989fda69d9d61b462a5f/images/c75e6d64-b463-4db6-9e6b-3f216a4daa89.png

Dubhthach
05-04-2017, 08:50 AM
Two useful maps I found with quick google:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/23/39/b1/2339b14e13651ba8efc0cdc8792284c8.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/61/e8/3f/61e83f273a8f7d00d8ba1af09895a817.jpg

Jessie
05-04-2017, 09:12 AM
Well the Highland sample set include people from the Hebrides, which after all was conquered by the Vikings and became a norse speaking zone before been re-gaelicized (though there is debate that the Outer Hebrides hadn't spoken Old Irish but Pictish in the pre-Viking period).

I'd imagine most of the Scandinavian influence in that cluster is thus coming from the Scots samples and not the Northern Irish ones.

Recall this map from ScotlandsDNA, though only looking at an arbitrary number of Y-DNA lineages which they classed as Norse:

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5994c989fda69d9d61b462a5f/images/c75e6d64-b463-4db6-9e6b-3f216a4daa89.png

Why would they all be in the same cluster though? Wouldn't the Highland Scots be in a different cluster than the NI if there was significant differences? I thought that was the objective of using FineScale? It might not come down to ydna as I've always thought it could be ancient similarity as well. Looking at Wales for example they have one of the largest West German components. I personally think some of these components are older than things like the Viking Age. Otherwise I don't understand how they form the clusters??

Dubhthach
05-04-2017, 09:30 AM
Why would they all be in the same cluster though? Wouldn't the Highland Scots be in a different cluster than the NI if there was significant differences? I thought that was the objective of using FineScale? It might not come down to ydna as I've always thought it could be ancient similarity as well. Looking at Wales for example they have one of the largest West German components. I personally think some of these components are older than things like the Viking Age. Otherwise I don't understand how they form the clusters??

Sample size? If you don't have big enough sample, or run to high enough K (component) level than it results in nearby clusters collapsing together. If for example the project actually lived up to it's rather dubious name (as an Irishman don't get me started on "British Isles") than they would have a larger Ireland sample set (eg. whole Island) -- in such a scenario it would have been probable to see a spilt in Ireland/NW Scotland at a lower K level.

If you look at PoBI pdf they show that Isle of Skye spilts off at a higher K level. It's only at K=17 that we see "North of Ireland/NW Scotland" cluster and it is only made up of 34 samples. Given massive size of English sample-set it overwhelms the model when it comes to computing the various K levels. (at K=17 the "red cluster" has 1044 members!)

To really spilt the two you would probably need to have a couple of hundred sample sets from Ireland/Scotland. The PCA chart from Irish DNA atlas shows how additional samples helps hugely. The additional Irish samples pull the north of Ireland samples away from the NW Scottish ones. Resulting in NW Scottish been intermediate between the IDNA Ulster cluster (i've forgotten the exact name) and the Lowland Scottish one.

Heber
05-04-2017, 09:41 AM
When I spoke to AncestryDNA recently at WDYTYA, they confirmed that the highest percentage of "100% Irish" or near 100% Irish results were from Connacht. I have contacted them again to see if I can get specific numbers.
The granularity of the results is truly extraordinary. In Ireland alone, there are (so far) seventeen different subgroups, ranging from East Donegal to West Cork to North Connacht to Connemara.
Here are my results.

http://pin.it/7TtmWpf

If we look at R1b-DF21, which was found in the 4000 ya Rathlin samples, it also peaks in Galway and Connacht.

http://pin.it/E6EZzgB

http://pin.it/ALNUy3H

Jessie
05-04-2017, 10:11 AM
Sample size? If you don't have big enough sample, or run to high enough K (component) level than it results in nearby clusters collapsing together. If for example the project actually lived up to it's rather dubious name (as an Irishman don't get me started on "British Isles") than they would have a larger Ireland sample set (eg. whole Island) -- in such a scenario it would have been probable to see a spilt in Ireland/NW Scotland at a lower K level.

If you look at PoBI pdf they show that Isle of Skye spilts off at a higher K level. It's only at K=17 that we see "North of Ireland/NW Scotland" cluster and it is only made up of 34 samples. Given massive size of English sample-set it overwhelms the model when it comes to computing the various K levels. (at K=17 the "red cluster" has 1044 members!)

To really spilt the two you would probably need to have a couple of hundred sample sets from Ireland/Scotland. The PCA chart from Irish DNA atlas shows how additional samples helps hugely. The additional Irish samples pull the north of Ireland samples away from the NW Scottish ones. Resulting in NW Scottish been intermediate between the IDNA Ulster cluster (i've forgotten the exact name) and the Lowland Scottish one.

Thanks for that. Hopefully the IDNA will be released soon. I've been really looking forward to the results of that.

Heber
05-04-2017, 11:22 AM
Thor McVeigh

The Enduring Impact of the Beaker Phenomenon on the Boyne Valley, Eastern Ireland
The arrival of the transregional Beaker Phenomenon in Ireland during the mid-3rd millennium BC had a lasting impact on the supra-regional importance of the Boyne Valley in the eastern half of Ireland. It will be argued that elements of Beaker ideology were integrated into the pre-exiting ceremonial fabric of the Boyne Valley. The compatibility of these intrusive ideologies with pre-existing beliefs facilitated the adoption and integration of Beaker elements within this milieu, resonating across the regions associated with the pre- existing Boyne-centric group-identity. Elsewhere in eastern Ireland, it may be suggested that this ideological facilitation and integration can also be identified in the deposition of material culture associated with the ‘Beaker Package’ in pre-existing Neolithic ceremonial contexts indicating that its associated ideology was also negotiated, interpreted and reconciled with reference to older local traditions. Ireland appears to witness a reorientation of settlement focus in the eastern half of the country following the arrival of Beakers, which ultimately lead to changes in social organization and the fragmentation of the pre-existing Boyne-centric group-identity. Changing trade networks following the arrival of copper and gold metallurgy, impacted upon the supra-regional importance of the Boyne Valley during the centuries following the arrival of the ‘Beaker Phenomenon’. Ultimately, these changes in conjunction with the adoption of tin-bronze metallurgy towards the end of the 3rd millennium BC lead to the diminishing significance of the Boyne Valley as a supra-regional ‘hub’ by the mid-2nd millennium BC.

https://www.sfb1266.uni-kiel.de/de/veranstaltungen/tagungen-workshops/archeologie-et-gobelets-1/abstracts

sktibo
05-04-2017, 04:17 PM
In the PoBI it shows that the Highland Scots/Catholic Northern Irish have more Scandinavian influence than the South Scots. Not sure what the historical reasons are but it could be ancient

Someone has done a breakdown on the different components. From memory it was sktibo.

From this they appear to have more of the Norway component.


I've posted the POBI breakdown in a few places. One is under living DNA, in the OP of a thread called "Living DNA analysis using the POBI data" or something like that. Northwest Scotland has an average of 21.5% Scandinavian, the second highest next to the average of Orkney at 26.83%. Most of the POBI NW Scotland samples are from Islay and Argyll, of 34 samples, 10 are not from Islay or Argyll. It looks like over half are Islay.

CillKenny
05-04-2017, 08:31 PM
If we look at R1b-DF21, which was found in the 4000 ya Rathlin samples, it also peaks in Galway and Connacht.

http://pin.it/E6EZzgB

http://pin.it/ALNUy3H

Gerard,

Is anyone going to produce an Irish DNA Atlas in terms of ydna? It would be fascinating. I am looking forward to watching Mark Jobling's talk given at WDYTYA Live 2017 in terms of the POBI research when Maurice uploads it.

Pat

DillonResearcher
05-04-2017, 09:01 PM
Gerard,

Is anyone going to produce an Irish DNA Atlas in terms of ydna? It would be fascinating. I am looking forward to watching Mark Jobling's talk given at WDYTYA Live 2017 in terms of the POBI research when Maurice uploads it.

Pat

I did email the Irish DNA Atlas a few weeks ago to ask that question as I would really like to see some Y-DNA data as well and they said that they have done no Y-DNA sequencing at present as they are focusing on aDNA at the moment. I was going to ask if they might/would look at Y-DNA in future but got bogged down in work.

It would be great to see though and would probably be the best academic survey of Irish Y-DNA since Busby I'd have thought (unless I'm unaware of any others)

Jessie
05-26-2017, 03:55 AM
I did email the Irish DNA Atlas a few weeks ago to ask that question as I would really like to see some Y-DNA data as well and they said that they have done no Y-DNA sequencing at present as they are focusing on aDNA at the moment. I was going to ask if they might/would look at Y-DNA in future but got bogged down in work.

It would be great to see though and would probably be the best academic survey of Irish Y-DNA since Busby I'd have thought (unless I'm unaware of any others)

Any hints about when they are releasing their results?

DillonResearcher
05-26-2017, 08:23 AM
Any hints about when they are releasing their results?

Not that they told me in their email I'm afraid

Dubhthach
05-26-2017, 08:48 AM
If I recall right their participants gave a blood sample right? I imagine as a result there should be plenty of sample let form each individual to do further testing in the future. Given nature of funding it wouldn't surprise me if there is a focus heavily on medical applications for first couple of papers (RCSI = Royal college of Surgeons in Ireland)

Heber
06-13-2017, 12:04 PM
Early metalworking and myth on the Lakes of Killarney
William O'Brien

https://www.academia.edu/33425428/Early_metalworking_and_myth_on_the_Lakes_of_Killar ney

Radio carbon dates the early phase of mining at this site to 2400 - 1800 BC and Bell Beaker artifacts to the final Neolithic period.

Heber
06-14-2017, 09:43 AM
We should get the latest results of the Irish DNA Project from Ed Gilbert and The Irish Travellers DNA Project from Gianpiero Cavalleri at Genetic Genealogy Ireland on Sunday 22nd October at the RDS in Dublin.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/06/speakers-announced-for-ggi2017-dublin.html

"Margaret's talk will nicely complement the much anticipated presentation of the (almost?) final results of the Irish DNA Atlas project. This is a joint collaboration between the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland and the Genealogical Society of Ireland. Over 200 subjects have been recruited from all over Ireland and their autosomal DNA sampled. Each participant must have 8 great grandparents born within a relatively strictly defined geographic area. As a result, the study gives us a snapshot of autosomal DNA in Ireland from about 1850, just after the Great Famine. Ed Gilbert has tantalised us with snippets of information and updates on the projects progress over the past 2 years and we look forward to welcoming him back for this exciting climax.

In addition to Ed's talk, Dr Gianpierro Cavalleri (who heads the Irish DNA Atlas team at the RCSI) will present on the results of an associated part of the study, namely the DNA of the Irish Travellers. The results of this allied study were published by the team earlier this year in the journal Nature."

GogMagog
06-15-2017, 09:44 AM
If the Irish DNA atlas is held up any longer it will be my descendants who end up reading it.

fridurich
06-16-2017, 03:10 AM
If the Irish DNA atlas is held up any longer it will be my descendants who end up reading it.

Lol!! In all seriousness, I hope they finally publish results soon. I appreciate all of the testing, research, and other work by all involved, but this thing has been going on since 2012, I believe. So, in my opinion, since they have been at it so long, I think they should go ahead and publish soon what they have found up to now, and they can by all means continue testing and research, with new revelations. I think the majority of us who are interested in this project would agree it is time for the findings up to now to be published soon. I don't think the POBI project ran as long as this one, and they published a long time ago, but added additional material after the initial publishing. I don't want my great grandchildren to be the first to read the Irish DNA Project results! lol

GogMagog
06-16-2017, 07:59 AM
Spoke to an elderly female relative about this yesterday. Either they are spinning it out to get more money or it is the typical Irish manana attitude.

Heber
06-22-2017, 06:28 PM
Hill fort hotspots in UK and Ireland mapped for first time in online atlas
Scotland is home to majority of 4,000 sites on database – but many are not on hills and are not really forts, say researchers

For the first time, a detailed online atlas has drawn together the locations and particulars of the UK and Ireland’s hill forts and come to the conclusion that there are more than 4,000 of them, mostly dating from the iron age.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/22/hillforts-uk-ireland-mapped-first-time-online-database-atlas


Northern Ireland

Antrim – 15

Tyrone – 8

Down – 3

Armagh – 3

Derry – 2

Republic of Ireland

Mayo – 73

Cork – 72

Clare – 54

Kerry – 42

Donegal – 40

fridurich
07-09-2017, 01:17 AM
How many of you remember not so long ago, when the experts were saying that the Celts didn't come to the British Isles and Ireland, or if they did, it was a very small number, who were a ruling elite among the indigenous population, and that the Celtic languages and culture came to Ireland and the British Isles by cultural transfer from continental Europe?

Now, we have all of this DNA research: The Irish DNA Atlas, the People of the British Isles Project, individual YDNA haplogroup research, etc. and I think I read on this thread where there was a major population replacement in Ireland during the Bronze Age. So, have the history experts changed their mind back to believing there was a substantial population of Celtic people in Ireland and the British Isles during the Iron Age?

Jessie
07-09-2017, 07:42 AM
How many of you remember not so long ago, when the experts were saying that the Celts didn't come to the British Isles and Ireland, or if they did, it was a very small number, who were a ruling elite among the indigenous population, and that the Celtic languages and culture came to Ireland and the British Isles by cultural transfer from continental Europe?

Now, we have all of this DNA research: The Irish DNA Atlas, the People of the British Isles Project, individual YDNA haplogroup research, etc. and I think I read on this thread where there was a major population replacement in Ireland during the Bronze Age. So, have the history experts changed their mind back to believing there was a substantial population of Celtic people in Ireland and the British Isles during the Iron Age?

Population turnover with Bronze Age Bell Beakers but Celtic language came later. I think Celtic languages developed out of these Bell Beaker populations and that they had connections across Northwest Europe through trade etc.

It would be interesting to hear how the linguists view these latest dna studies and what theories they now have. Prof John Koch has obviously changed his theories about Celtic language with the new dna studies. He know thinks that Gaelic and Brythonic languages grew in-situ in Ireland and Britain.

http://i64.tinypic.com/10xssy1.jpg

avalon
07-09-2017, 10:48 AM
Population turnover with Bronze Age Bell Beakers but Celtic language came later. I think Celtic languages developed out of these Bell Beaker populations and that they had connections across Northwest Europe through trade etc.

It would be interesting to hear how the linguists view these latest dna studies and what theories they now have. Prof John Koch has obviously changed his theories about Celtic language with the new dna studies. He know thinks that Gaelic and Brythonic languages grew in-situ in Ireland and Britain.

http://i64.tinypic.com/10xssy1.jpg

Interesting idea that Gaelic and Brythonic may have emerged in-situ in Britain and Ireland.

One of the problems I see with the genetics, is that if there was a significant migration to the Isles in the Late Bronze Age or Iron Age then these migrants were likely very similar to the existing inhabitants, being largely descended from the same Indo-European source population, so it maybe difficult to detect a genetic change, even if there was a significant migration.

Jessie
07-09-2017, 11:14 AM
Interesting idea that Gaelic and Brythonic may have emerged in-situ in Britain and Ireland.

One of the problems I see with the genetics, is that if there was a significant migration to the Isles in the Late Bronze Age or Iron Age then these migrants were likely very similar to the existing inhabitants, being largely descended from the same Indo-European source population, so it maybe difficult to detect a genetic change, even if there was a significant migration.

They would have to be mostly R1b-L21. I think everything points to not much genetic change since these Bronze Age Bell Beakers.

rms2
07-09-2017, 05:55 PM
The recent Olalde et al paper, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962) showed that the last truly major, genomically transformative event in British and Irish history was the arrival of the Bell Beaker people around 2400 BC. Over the next few hundred years, the population of the Isles was replaced on the order of 93% or more.

A number of scholars over the years have attributed to the Bell Beaker people the spread of Italo-Celtic speech. It seems likely they spread such a language to the Isles, which provided fertile ground for the acceptance of Celtic once it developed, perhaps as a lingua franca among related peoples.

Saetro
07-10-2017, 07:48 AM
The recent Olalde et al paper, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962) showed that the last truly major, genomically transformative event in British and Irish history was the arrival of the Bell Beaker people around 2400 BC. Over the next few hundred years, the population of the Isles was replaced on the order of 93% or more.

A number of scholars over the years have attributed to the Bell Beaker people the spread of Italo-Celtic speech. It seems likely they spread such a language to the Isles, which provided fertile ground for the acceptance of Celtic once it developed, perhaps as a lingua franca among related peoples.

Any lingua franca requires interchange, usually of goods. The original was due to Mediterranean trade. Pigeon languages can be a lingua franca in their own right, or a halfway house to something else. In some cases they succeed because the original peoples spoke so many different dialects that people could not easily understand each other when different regions began to mix.

What were the pre-existing conditions in the Celtic British Isles that would promote the taking up of a different language? Trade? of what? Religious infusion? ...

Or conversely, how did autochthonous development end up with languages that were very similar to those elsewhere in Europe?

rms2
07-10-2017, 02:01 PM
I think what made the adoption of Celtic as a lingua franca easy was the fact that the Beaker or Beaker-descended people of the Isles already spoke related Italo-Celtic dialects. The same sort of thing in the Levant among Semitic speakers around the first century AD made Aramaic an easy lingua franca to adopt.

I doubt Celtic developed due to Mediterranean trade.

Saetro
07-10-2017, 08:23 PM
I think what made the adoption of Celtic as a lingua franca easy was the fact that the Beaker or Beaker-descended people of the Isles already spoke related Italo-Celtic dialects. The same sort of thing in the Levant among Semitic speakers around the first century AD made Aramaic an easy lingua franca to adopt.

I doubt Celtic developed due to Mediterranean trade.

Mediterranean trade in the spread of the Celtish language is ridiculous and was not a suggestion of mine.
Mediteranean trade did however during the mediaeval period result in the development of what they called lingua franca, and this was the origin of the term.
It was not adopted by everybody, but used by sailors and traders as a means of communication - they did not lose their original language.
But your Levant example raises trade again.

What trade in the Celtic world led to the development of Celtic language?
Within the framework you have raised, let me rephrase that.

How did influxes of people from the Iberian peninsula and from France/Netherlands/Germany/Denmark (tick appropriate ones) to the British Isles end up with the spread we find later of P Celtic and Q Celtic? If it was as a lingua franca, what was the subject that required common discussion? If it was trade, what trade?
I do not know about Celtic trade/travel routes of that period, and am curious as to what impetus would be so large as to change the language of such a wide area.
Granted, if the existing language was Italo-Celtic, that might not be a big change. But what drove the change? And how were the later patterns caused?

rms2
07-10-2017, 08:58 PM
Any lingua franca requires interchange, usually of goods. The original was due to Mediterranean trade . . .

What did you mean by that if "Mediterranean trade in the spread of the Celtish language is ridiculous and was not a suggestion of mine"?

Saetro
07-13-2017, 04:25 AM
What did you mean by that if "Mediterranean trade in the spread of the Celtish language is ridiculous and was not a suggestion of mine"?

The term "lingua franca" refers to a hodge-podge of terms used to communicate between sailors and traders from different nations. Words came from a variety of languages spoken mainly in the western Mediterranean during the mediaeval times.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca

The two influxes to the British Isles that produced the Celts were apparently from 1) up the Atlantic coast from the Iberian peninsula and 2) from France and the northern Atlantic/North Sea coast of Europe.
The formation of a lingua franca would be expected to include terms from the British Isles and would therefore have been most likely to have formed somewhere around there, or on the Atlantic seaboard of France.
What I meant by "ridiculous" was that it looks like an unreasonable stretch to suggest that a lingua franca developed in the Mediterranean and was then shipped to the British Isles and Northern France. And that was not a suggestion I was intending to convey.
There are other examples of lingua franca or pidgin (apologies for misspelling this earlier) languages developing more recently and they overwhelmingly develop where cultures meet, not in some other place and are imported.

However, as I later stated, I do not know about what interactions developed Celtic language as a lingua franca and asked for information on this point.
What was happening at that time to generate a pidgin or lingua franca?

sktibo
08-02-2017, 06:16 PM
Just checking in. Any updates to the Irish DNA Atlas? my hair has started to turn grey waiting!

DillonResearcher
08-02-2017, 07:19 PM
Just checking in. Any updates to the Irish DNA Atlas? my hair has started to turn grey waiting!

Same here, the work that they are doing sounds brilliant but I think we're all fossilising while waiting!

N21163
08-18-2017, 12:37 AM
Any update on data or publication for the Irish DNA Atlas Project? This project seems ridiculously slow...

DillonResearcher
08-18-2017, 08:44 AM
Any update on data or publication for the Irish DNA Atlas Project? This project seems ridiculously slow...

I don't think that we are going to hear anything until this years Genetic Genealogy Ireland (GGI) talks on October 20th-22nd. Maurice Gleeson runs GGI and on his blog says of the that: "Margaret's talk will nicely complement the much anticipated presentation of the (almost?) final results of the Irish DNA Atlas project."

http://ggi2013.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/speakers-announced-for-ggi2017-dublin.html

So, it sounds like they are planning to release the final results at the end of October but whether that actually turns out to be the final results is another matter. Hopefully it is worth the wait!

Sikeliot
08-20-2017, 03:07 PM
I have been awaiting the study, too, especially since I think it will confirm my contention that the area of Ireland with the most native Irish ancestry is not in fact Connacht overall but the extreme southwest and extreme northwest, i.e. parts of Kerry and Donegal.

DillonResearcher
08-20-2017, 03:53 PM
Interesting theory, I don't really know much about Irish history or population movements though, what draws you to that theory?

sktibo
08-21-2017, 02:20 AM
I have been awaiting the study, too, especially since I think it will confirm my contention that the area of Ireland with the most native Irish ancestry is not in fact Connacht overall but the extreme southwest and extreme northwest, i.e. parts of Kerry and Donegal.

Yes that will be incredibly interesting to see if they can get us an answer to that... it's something I'm looking forward to as well.

Sikeliot
08-21-2017, 03:20 AM
Interesting theory, I don't really know much about Irish history or population movements though, what draws you to that theory?

There was a PCA plot posted on here where the Irish who clustered furthest from the Scots and English, were one cluster from Munster and, most significantly, the Catholic population of Ulster. On the other hand, Leinster was the most British-shifted part of the Republic of Ireland, then Connacht.

sktibo
08-21-2017, 04:06 AM
There was a PCA plot posted on here where the Irish who clustered furthest from the Scots and English, were one cluster from Munster and, most significantly, the Catholic population of Ulster. On the other hand, Leinster was the most British-shifted part of the Republic of Ireland, then Connacht.

Just because I have it handily available, this is the one:

18223

Munster 12 and Ulster 12 are the two types furthest removed from the Scottish cluster

Sikeliot
08-21-2017, 10:49 AM
Just because I have it handily available, this is the one:

18223

Munster 12 and Ulster 12 are the two types furthest removed from the Scottish cluster

Yes that's the one. It makes sense to me that it's basically the extreme northwest and extreme southwest that are most isolated. But if included I suspect Connemara could be close too.

Dubhthach
08-21-2017, 10:54 AM
Given the medieval history of Ireland the PCA chart actually makes a lot of sense. Of course what would make life even more interesting is if we got some early medieval aDNA from Ireland, as that would provide a more reliable baseline for the level of admixture post 1169.

Sikeliot
08-21-2017, 01:09 PM
Given the medieval history of Ireland the PCA chart actually makes a lot of sense. Of course what would make life even more interesting is if we got some early medieval aDNA from Ireland, as that would provide a more reliable baseline for the level of admixture post 1169.

How so? Would you say that it is evidence of some sort of Norman, English, or Scandinavian input in Connacht and Leinster, and then Scottish settlement in Ulster giving rise to the Protestant population?

Dubhthach
08-21-2017, 04:36 PM
How so? Would you say that it is evidence of some sort of Norman, English, or Scandinavian input in Connacht and Leinster, and then Scottish settlement in Ulster giving rise to the Protestant population?

Well because as result of Battle of Callan in 1261 the normans never conquered 'South Munster' eg. the Kingdom of Deas-Mhumhain (South-Munster). The McCarthy's defeated the Fitzgerald's resulting in the death of John Fitzgerald (1st Baron Desmond) -- the founder of the Desmond line of the Fitzgerald family. The McCarthy's would thus stay in position of supremacy right up until the 9 year war ended in 1603.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/DesmondSepts.png/1024px-DesmondSepts.png

The only Norman landholding family in region were basically some coastal holdings of the Barry family (Roe = Rua eg. red-headed)

Likewise within North Munster we see the destruction of the Norman colony in Thomond (Tuadh-mhumhain -- North-Munster, in this case Clare) as result of the Battle of Dysert O'Dea in 1318 during the Bruce invasion of Ireland. This led to full expulsion of Norman lords/settlements from modern County Clare which stayed outside of english remit really until surrender and regrant of Murchadh Ó Briain in 1543, which saw him surrender his title of 'King of Thomond' and accepting the english title of 'Earl of Thomond'.

In comparison nearly all of Connacht fell under Norman lordship during the course of the 13th century, it's only during the 14th century that you see a resurgence of Gaelic lordship, and even than the most powerful groups in the province remained of Cambro-Norman origin eg. the warring factions of the Burkes (who fought a civil war in the 14th century), they just became heavily Gaelicised.

https://historicalragbag.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/medieval-irelandjpeg.jpeg
18227

For example in County Galway alone there were at least three walled medieval towns built (plus several other significant sites built around Manor centers). So for example within the formal territory of the Kingdom of the Uí Maine we see situation like this around 1300:
http://burkeseastgalway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Cantred-of-Sil-Anmchadha-c.-1300-copy.jpg

As I've mentioned two battles, I might as well mention the Battle of Athenry in Galway during the Bruce invasion (1316), this ended up as unmitigated disaster for the Irish of Connacht, with up to 3,000 dead.

U1313 (sic 1316) A great hosting was undertaken by Feidhlimidh, together with the nobles of the Fifth of Connacht and with Donnchadh O'Briain, king of Munster and O'Mael-Sheclainn, king of Meath and Ualgharc O'Ruairc, king of Breifni (Ualgharc O'Ruairc took the kingship that year) and O'Ferghail, king of Muinter-hAnghaile and Tadhg O'Cellaigh, king of Ui-Maine and Maghnus, son of Domnall Ua Concobuir, tanist of Connacht and Art O'hEaghra, king of Luighni and Brian O'Dubhda, king of Ui-Fiachrach.

They went, all those, to Ath-na-righ. The Foreigners of the West of Connacht all assembled against them: to wit, William de Burgh and the Baron Mac Feorais Birmingham, lord of Ath-na-righ and all the Foreigners of the greater part of the Half of Conn. Battle was engaged in by them and defeat inflicted on the Gaidhil there. Feidhlimidh O'Concobuir (son of Aedh, son of Eogan), king of Connacht, was slain there: the one person on whom the attention of the Men of all Ireland was most directed and who was best in generosity and prowess.

Tadhg Ua Cellaigh, king of Ui-Maine, was slain there and eight and twenty of the Clann-Cellaigh that had right to kingship of Ui-Maine were slain there. Art O'hEghra, king of Luighni was slain there. But for one thing, there was not slain in this time in Ireland the amount that was slain there of sons of kings and of chiefs and of many other persons in addition. Ruaidhri, son of Donnchadh, son of Eogan Ua Concobuir, was then made king by the Connachtmen.

Now post 1400 things go downhill in Connacht, particulary with resurgence of O'Connor's see the seizure of the Royal Castle at Roscommon in 1340 (and resultant abandonment of the Borough of Roscommon) as well as the destruction of the walled town of Rindoon earlier in the 14th century.

In comparison outside of 'East Ulster' (eg. Antrim and Down) there was next to no Cambro-Norman settlement in Ulster, any that was there was destroyed during the 14th century (Northburg in Inishowen for example) and even in case of the 'Earldom of Ulster' (eg. Antrim/Down) most of it fell to the conquest of the Clandeboye O'Neill's during the course of the 14th century. As a result by the time of Tudor conquest 'Ulster' was the most Irish part of Ireland.

Now it's not clear from that PCA chart but I'd be curious where the second Munster cluster falls exactly.

QuickDraw
08-22-2017, 12:47 AM
fridurich

Straying from the topic of this thread, but I find it interesting you are M222>S588>S603 with an ancestor in the Newry area. My ancestor (ca. 1782-1864) is from the Comber area of Co. Down and I am R-S588* - tested negative for the downstream SNPs S603, S7049, A5388, FGC30690, S7814. I am trying to get my head around what can or can't be said about the origins of the R-S588 (e.g. Ireland vs Scotland, Ui Neill or not).

My surname has a Gaelic origin (Mac Craith) that has been associated with clans in Thomond (Munster) and in Donegal/Fermanagh. Given that the Thomond clan is Dalcassian (R-L226), that rules them out as linked to my ancestor. The Donegal clan are of interest as they are within the area associated with R-M222. Moreover, the area where my ancestors lived in Co. Down in the 18th century has a history that can be traced back to the Cinel Eoghain. On the other hand, the spelling (Megraw), denomination (Presbyterian) and distribution (restricted to Antrim & Down) of my ancestor's surname suggests a possible link to the immigration of Scots during and after Hamilton & Montgomery's settlement in the early 1600s.

Are you aware of anyone else who is M222 > S588 > ... with ancestors from Co. Down? Or of anyone who is focused on the study of S588?

fridurich
08-22-2017, 03:56 AM
Very nice and informative maps and graphics you use. Concerning your last sentence, it is hard to tell exactly which clusters or groups all of the different colored circles and other shapes belong to because the photo appears to be either low resolution, my best guess, or has glare from lighting, or both. I do appreciate whoever took the photo though.

There was another chart that had blue, red, and maybe green circles that I was never able to interpret very well, partly because of the low resolution.

Would be great if someone could get those charts again and take high resolution photos, taking pains to make sure there is no glare or anything else that would make it hard to see all of the symbols clearly. Or if someone could take several photos, and pick the one with the sharpest detail and least amount of glare.

fridurich
08-22-2017, 04:35 AM
fridurich

Straying from the topic of this thread, but I find it interesting you are M222>S588>S603 with an ancestor in the Newry area. My ancestor (ca. 1782-1864) is from the Comber area of Co. Down and I am R-S588* - tested negative for the downstream SNPs S603, S7049, A5388, FGC30690, S7814. I am trying to get my head around what can or can't be said about the origins of the R-S588 (e.g. Ireland vs Scotland, Ui Neill or not).

My surname has a Gaelic origin (Mac Craith) that has been associated with clans in Thomond (Munster) and in Donegal/Fermanagh. Given that the Thomond clan is Dalcassian (R-L226), that rules them out as linked to my ancestor. The Donegal clan are of interest as they are within the area associated with R-M222. Moreover, the area where my ancestors lived in Co. Down in the 18th century has a history that can be traced back to the Cinel Eoghain. On the other hand, the spelling (Megraw), denomination (Presbyterian) and distribution (restricted to Antrim & Down) of my ancestor's surname suggests a possible link to the immigration of Scots during and after Hamilton & Montgomery's settlement in the early 1600s.

Are you aware of anyone else who is M222 > S588 > ... with ancestors from Co. Down? Or of anyone who is focused on the study of S588?

The Comber area isn't far from the area my O'Hair/O'Hare ancestor was from. I honestly don't know where S588 originated, whether Ireland or Scotland, but will say that if you look at the surnames that make it up, there appear to be many that are Irish, and many that are Scottish. Also, S588 does have a number of surnames that appear to be Northern Ui Neill surnames.

If you look at Kennedy's M222 chart http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf you will see what I mean. Also, it appears to me that radical anglicization of Irish surnames happened more than I thought at first. So, some of the English looking names may be Anglicized Irish names or Anglicized Scottish names. I feel like Anglicization of surnames happened more often in Ireland though.

Is it a fact that Megraw's are always Protestant? I don't think there were hordes of Irish who converted to Protestantism, but some of them did. If some Irish McGraws converted, it seems possible they might want there name to look more like the names of Protestant Megraws. However, you do make a good point that your ancestors could be Scottish.

If you take the Big Y test or Full Genomes Y Elite, you will probably turn up some novel variants that could help you get a branch downstream from S588. Or, if you could get a male Megraw relative to take the Big Y or y Elite, they would also probably have some novel variants. If someone else tests positive for your novel variants, then that may clue you in on other families that are genetically close to the Megraws and give you a branch below S588 that you and they sit on. Over time, novel variants can become official SNPs.

My O'Hair cousin, who is also S603, took the Big Y, and I tested for 5 of his novel variants. So far I'm positive for 3 and negative for one of them, and waiting on results for one. We have a descendant of Peter O'Hare and a Hare that we are YDNA matchs too, but they are only as far as S588. If they tested for some of my cousins novel variants and were positive for one or more of them, I think that one make them appear extremely likely to be of the same O'Hair line as us.

At the moment, I'm not aware of anyone else who is terminal snp S588 with ancestors from County Down except a descendant of Peter O'Hare (I mentioned in previous paragraph) born about 1832 in County Down. I'm sure there are those who are studying S588, but don't know any.

Dubhthach, is really knowledgeable about Irish surnames, history, and DNA. You might ask him the same questions. He may be able to help you. Good luck!

Kind Regards

Jessie
08-22-2017, 07:32 AM
I second that on Dubhthach. My brother is stuck at S588 but I've ordered the Big Y and results should be available in October. My father was from Boyle, Co Roscommon and that is where my oldest known ydna paternal ancestor is from born in 1817.

Dubhthach
08-22-2017, 09:20 AM
There's interesting article that was posted on the M222 yahoo group with regards to internal migration in Ireland during late 18th century (due to increase in sectarian violence in the 1790's)

Archaeologist finds 200-year-old Galway ‘refugee camp’
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/archaeologist-finds-200-year-old-galway-refugee-camp-1.3190982?mode=amp


...
Community archaeologist Dr Christy Cunniffe believes he has found the location of temporary camps set up by “Ultachs” or Catholics who fled from the north in the 1790s to avoid persecution by bands of Protestant agitators known as the “Peep-O-Boys” or “Peep O’Day Boys”.

Dr Cunniffe believes the site is a “physical manifestation of what has existed in local folk memory for years” and “evidence of one the largest internal migrations” in recent Irish history.

The first clues – a series of circular ditches dug around hut foundations on land owned by Woodford farmer Patrick McGann – were initially thought to date to the Bronze Age, or to settlements for summer pasture, Dr Cunniffe explains.

Further consultation with archaeologists about the cluster of features then pointed to the existence of an extensive refugee camp, he says.

Up to 7,000 Catholics are believed to have been displaced from the Armagh county area, after competition within the linen industry culminated in the Battle of the Diamond on September 21st, 1795 near Loughgall.

An estimated 30 “Catholic Defenders” were killed, and many of their neighbours were burned out of their homes and fled to areas such as the Slieve Aughty mountains. The Peep-O-Boys, who claimed victory, were precursors of the Orange Order.
..



The 'Battle of the Diamond' is the event that leads to the foundation of the Orange Order ...

Dubhthach
08-22-2017, 09:24 AM
I should note that during the 17th century there was also large scale internal migration form Ulster to North Connacht. So much so that the Irish dialect of North-Connacht (North Mayo -- verging on extinction) is heavily influenced by dialect of 'Ulster Irish' (eg. vocab etc.). Leaving that aside there was also internal migration of Catholic landholders as part of the Cromwellian settlement where there estates east of the Shannon was seized and they were 'planted' with new estates (generally inferior) in Connacht. In the case though you are talking about landholding upper classes.

Dubhthach
08-22-2017, 10:08 AM
With regards to Comber, today that part of Northern Ireland is probably among the most protestant parts of the island of Ireland, in the 2011 Northern Ireland census Comber return that 3.7% of population were of Catholic background and 91.6% were of Protestant background (missing percentage probably reflects non-reporting)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png

Historically the region fell within the remit of the Clandeboye O'Neill's (eg. Clanna Aodha Buí -- the children of 'Aodh Buidhe Ua Néill' d. 1283 -- Buí/Buidhe = 'yellow' eg. blonde hair) who had conquered it from the failing Earldom of Ulster during the course of the 14th century. They had originally moved into area after they had lost out on the leadership battle within the O'Neill's of Tyrone. With the falling apart of the Earldom as result of Burke Civil war they were able to carve out a quasi-independent lordship that was basically independent of the Ó Néill Mór (Mór = great/big) lordship of Tyrone (eg. primary lineage of family).

What must be remember is that Down and Antrim have a very different plantation history compare to the rest of province of Ulster. In that they didn't actually form part of the area that was planted after 1609. Instead they were subject to private plantation.

Driving a Wedge within Gaeldom
http://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/driving-a-wedge-within-gaeldom/


Ironically the unofficial and unregulated plantation of the non-escheated counties of Down and Antrim proved to be much more successful. In 1605 Sir Hugh Montgomery, sixth Laird of Braidstone in Ayrshire, and another Scottish favourite of the king, James Hamilton, carved up the estates of Conn O’Neill, lord of Upper Clandeboye and the Great Ards, in a tripartite agreement with O’Neill and attracted a significant number of settlers—predominately Scottish—to the region. In County Antrim Randal MacDonnell, first (Gaelic, Catholic) Earl of Antrim, introduced many British, Protestant settlers to his vast patrimony and on numerous occasions the king thanked him for ‘his services in improving those barren and uncultivated parts of the country, and planting a colony there’. Randal would have been familiar with this concept because he had been fostered on the Scottish island of Arran (hence his name Randal Arranach) and thus exposed to James’s unsuccessful attempts to ‘plant’ the troublesome Highlands with Scottish Lowlanders. In fact one recent scholar has suggested that Randal formed an important human link between the Irish and Scottish plantations. By the late 1630s the Antrim estate boasted well over 300 ‘British’ (or Protestant) families. The town of Dunluce, for example, consisted ‘of many tenements, after the fashion of the Pale, peopled for the most part with Scotsmen’.

A laboratory for empire
http://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/a-laboratory-for-empire/

Creating facts on the ground:the destruction of Clandeboye

According to himself, in a letter to the queen in July 1575, he ‘left all the county desolate and without people’. Neil McBrian’s ‘people [he had succeeded Sir Brian McPhelim] were few, his cattle less [and] his husbandmen were starved, dead or run out of the country’. Perhaps Essex’s worst atrocity occurred at the Christmas feast at Belfast in 1574 given by Sir Brian McPhelim, when Essex—according to himself, suspecting treachery—had all 200 participants, of whatever age or sex, killed. The Four Masters claim that this massacre was gratuitous murder without cause. Sir Brian himself, his wife and his brother Rory Óg were arrested, brought to Dublin and executed. Essex achieved nothing by his exploits in Antrim. In 1576 he fell ill of dysentery in Dublin, where he died. Sidney visited Ulster later that year. He claimed that Carrickfergus was much decayed and impoverished, the inhabitants fled, not about six householders of any countenance remaining, and Clandeboye was ‘utterly disinhabited’. Such were the results of the first attempts to colonise the new counties of Antrim and Down. The main English participants incurred great loss of money and some loss of life.

Once the war was over it was time to divide the spoils. Inquisitions were held in 1605 in Antrim and Down to assess exactly what was available for distribution among the victors. The Antrim inquisition found, according to Belfast antiquarian F.J. Bigger:
‘… in lower Clanaboy [sic] there were twenty-one sub-territories containing vast tracts of the finest lands in Ulster, and inhabited by a very numerous population, but Chichester left it desolate’.
These lands were distributed among Chichester and his followers, although the remaining few loyal Gaelic nobles got generous estates. The story of Con O’Neill and how he lost two thirds of his estates to Hamilton and Montgomery in upper Clandeboye (north Down) is well known. These latter expelled their remaining Gaelic tenants to the Dufferin barony.Scottish immigrants began arriving at Donaghadee from May 1606 to take up new tenancies first in Down and later in Antrim. They found no resistance. There was nobody left to offer it. By now James VI of Scotland had become James I of England. Thus started the peopling of these parts with inhabitants who then and subsequently were to be described as ‘British’.

So question arises did conversion ever occur? It most certaintly did, actually it occur in both directions. Though generally Gaelic Irish landowners would convert to the 'official church' eg. Church of Ireland -- it wouldn't surprise me if we also had particularly in heavily planted areas 'passing' where Gaelic Irish converted so as to basically fit into the heavily Presbytrian regional population. Of course it also helped that you did have Presbyterians preachers who spoke Scottish Gaelic which was less differentiated from Irish at the time (let alone the dialect of East-Ulster Irish).

What's interesting in case of Megraw spelling is it seems restricted purley to Down and Antrim. When I search for it in the 1901 census I see a total of 68 individuals, 10 live in Antrim and 58 in Down, what's even more interesting is that of the 68 individuals 15 are Catholic and live purely in Down, specifically nearly all in Ardglass in South Down

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=Megraw&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=Roman+Catholic&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

The question than arises is this a case of Gaelic Irish conversion during the 17th/18th century in heavily protestant areas (such as Comber) or is the Megraw family of Quickdraw of ultimatly Scottish origins?

Ideally we would need a BigY test to figure out what is his terminal branch under S588, at the moment there are at least 70 S588 BigY's on ytree. Dr. Iain McDonald gave the following dating estimate for it:

S588 432 AD (123 AD — 712 AD)

FGC4113 937 AD (412 AD — 1460 AD)
A9884 1134 AD (608 AD — 1568 AD)
FGC19831 902 AD (339 AD — 1518 AD)
FGC19860 1405 AD (825 AD — 1780 AD)
Z25507 1582 AD (1083 AD — 1862 AD)
S590 688 AD (292 AD — 1131 AD)

S595 1526 AD (1051 AD — 1822 AD)
A5386 1166 AD (690 AD — 1539 AD)

17949897 1564 AD (1155 AD — 1830 AD)
A9883 1520 AD (1097 AD — 1810 AD)
FGC57785 501 AD (177 AD — 840 AD)

A8591 855 AD (402 AD — 1332 AD)
FGC23592 660 AD (297 AD — 1041 AD)

FGC23595 1123 AD (696 AD — 1484 AD)

A12545 1722 AD (1349 AD — 1917 AD)
FGC17916 1756 AD (1420 AD — 1925 AD)
S7814 491 AD (178 AD — 792 AD)

A11307 871 AD (413 AD — 1360 AD)
A694 678 AD (317 AD — 1055 AD)

PF2028 1162 AD (653 AD — 1612 AD)
BY202 742 AD (379 AD — 1092 AD)

BY4142 965 AD (557 AD — 1366 AD)
BY199 977 AD (585 AD — 1340 AD)

13997501 1379 AD (1000 AD — 1669 AD)

7034127 1760 AD (1451 AD — 1925 AD)

Given the age of S588 it's quite possible that men who were S588+ could have moved back/forth between Ireland and Scotland anytime in 1,000 years before the plantation. This makes things complicated, what we can partially see is that we do see an 'enrichment' of S588 among men bearing Northern Uí Néill surnames linked to the Cenél nEogain. For example we have at least two S588+ O'Neill BigY's and a third one on the way.

When it comes to the 'Big 3' of DF105 subclades eg. DF85, S588 and A259 (based on my analysis of M222 bundle tests in Ireland project), it's generally DF85 and S588 that we see with cross-over between Ireland and Scotland. A259 in comparison is heavily biased towards the province of Connacht, if S588 and DF85 did arise in the northern half of Ireland given the historic links between Ireland and Scotland from early medieval period right through to Early Modern period, it wouldn't be unusual that you would see lineages moving in either direction between the two.

Ideally in long run we need ancient DNA to help get a bigger picture. The early medieval graveyard at Ballyhanna in South Donegal for example might provide us with some interesting results if an analysis is done on the close to 1,300 bodies discovered that cover a timeframe from the 8th through 13th centuries.

cilldara
08-22-2017, 02:03 PM
The Comber area isn't far from the area my O'Hair/O'Hare ancestor was from. I honestly don't know where S588 originated, whether Ireland or Scotland, but will say that if you look at the surnames that make it up, there appear to be many that are Irish, and many that are Scottish. Also, S588 does have a number of surnames that appear to be Northern Ui Neill surnames.

If you look at Kennedy's M222 chart http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf you will see what I mean. Also, it appears to me that radical anglicization of Irish surnames happened more than I thought at first. So, some of the English looking names may be Anglicized Irish names or Anglicized Scottish names. I feel like Anglicization of surnames happened more often in Ireland though.

Is it a fact that Megraw's are always Protestant? I don't think there were hordes of Irish who converted to Protestantism, but some of them did. If some Irish McGraws converted, it seems possible they might want there name to look more like the names of Protestant Megraws. However, you do make a good point that your ancestors could be Scottish.

If you take the Big Y test or Full Genomes Y Elite, you will probably turn up some novel variants that could help you get a branch downstream from S588. Or, if you could get a male Megraw relative to take the Big Y or y Elite, they would also probably have some novel variants. If someone else tests positive for your novel variants, then that may clue you in on other families that are genetically close to the Megraws and give you a branch below S588 that you and they sit on. Over time, novel variants can become official SNPs.

My O'Hair cousin, who is also S603, took the Big Y, and I tested for 5 of his novel variants. So far I'm positive for 3 and negative for one of them, and waiting on results for one. We have a descendant of Peter O'Hare and a Hare that we are YDNA matchs too, but they are only as far as S588. If they tested for some of my cousins novel variants and were positive for one or more of them, I think that one make them appear extremely likely to be of the same O'Hair line as us.

At the moment, I'm not aware of anyone else who is terminal snp S588 with ancestors from County Down except a descendant of Peter O'Hare (I mentioned in previous paragraph) born about 1832 in County Down. I'm sure there are those who are studying S588, but don't know any.

Dubhthach, is really knowledgeable about Irish surnames, history, and DNA. You might ask him the same questions. He may be able to help you. Good luck!

Kind Regards

It's good to see there are a few S588 folks on here!

MacUalraig
08-22-2017, 02:18 PM
I suspect most people focus on layers a bit lower down, if you get stuck at something like S588* you can feel a bit stranded. :-)

QuickDraw
08-22-2017, 09:46 PM
With regards to Comber, today that part of Northern Ireland is probably among the most protestant parts of the island of Ireland, in the 2011 Northern Ireland census Comber return that 3.7% of population were of Catholic background and 91.6% were of Protestant background (missing percentage probably reflects non-reporting)

Historically the region fell within the remit of the Clandeboye O'Neill's (eg. Clanna Aodha Buí -- the children of 'Aodh Buidhe Ua Néill' d. 1283 -- Buí/Buidhe = 'yellow' eg. blonde hair) who had conquered it from the failing Earldom of Ulster during the course of the 14th century. They had originally moved into area after they had lost out on the leadership battle within the O'Neill's of Tyrone. With the falling apart of the Earldom as result of Burke Civil war they were able to carve out a quasi-independent lordship that was basically independent of the Ó Néill Mór (Mór = great/big) lordship of Tyrone (eg. primary lineage of family).

What must be remember is that Down and Antrim have a very different plantation history compare to the rest of province of Ulster. In that they didn't actually form part of the area that was planted after 1609. Instead they were subject to private plantation.

What's interesting in case of Megraw spelling is it seems restricted purley to Down and Antrim. When I search for it in the 1901 census I see a total of 68 individuals, 10 live in Antrim and 58 in Down, what's even more interesting is that of the 68 individuals 15 are Catholic and live purely in Down, specifically nearly all in Ardglass in South Down


The question than arises is this a case of Gaelic Irish conversion during the 17th/18th century in heavily protestant areas (such as Comber) or is the Megraw family of Quickdraw of ultimatly Scottish origins?



What a great response Dubhthach. You've hit on the points that have been on my mind and helped to put them in perspective. This was the type of feedback I was hoping for. Thanks!

avalon
08-27-2017, 02:10 PM
When the Irish DNA Atlas is finally released I would be interested to see where the Irish travellers feature. We know from that recent study (linked to Irish DNA Atlas) that they are genetically distinct from the settled Irish population and that this divergence occurred around 300-400 years ago.

I don't really know much about them. Do they originate from a certain part of Ireland? How native Irish are they?

Dubhthach
08-29-2017, 01:45 PM
When the Irish DNA Atlas is finally released I would be interested to see where the Irish travellers feature. We know from that recent study (linked to Irish DNA Atlas) that they are genetically distinct from the settled Irish population and that this divergence occurred around 300-400 years ago.

I don't really know much about them. Do they originate from a certain part of Ireland? How native Irish are they?

Well it's more like they are distinct due to 'genetic drift' and founder effect. Given their history of endogamy and in particular often case of only marrying within extended group of surnames, it's not really surprising they have had such drift. In all cases the closest other European population to them is rest of the Irish population. By and large travellers have native Irish surnames though some carry Cambro-Norman names such as Barrett, Joyce and even Fitzgerald. Their split is probably as a result of the period 1534-1692 when at least 5 major wars were fought in Ireland.

Of course traditional Gaelic Irish culture during the middle ages included a certain degree of transhumance when it came to migrating of animal stocks to winter pasturage etc. plus given nature of endemic violence in medieval Ireland many settlements were of a temporary nature and could be either abandoned or dismantled during times of strife.

Sikeliot
09-03-2017, 01:08 PM
I just ran a lot of Irish through GEDmatch from all corners of Ireland and they are all very close to English, Scots, Dutch, Frisians, heck even Swedes. Even if some Irish do not have RECENT continental input, they are substantially similar to the English and the difference autosomally seems minimal. I used MDLP K23 because it breaks down British populations well.

The only thing I notice that stands out is SOME people in Kilkenny, Waterford, etc. on the southeast coast on their oracles get Sweden and Norway higher up on the list than other Irish get. Western Ireland does seem quite close to English, despite some believing they wouldn't be. Also, the people of Cork seem close to Cornwall.

kevinduffy
09-03-2017, 11:05 PM
I just ran a lot of Irish through GEDmatch from all corners of Ireland and they are all very close to English, Scots, Dutch, Frisians, heck even Swedes. Even if some Irish do not have RECENT continental input, they are substantially similar to the English and the difference autosomally seems minimal. I used MDLP K23 because it breaks down British populations well.

The only thing I notice that stands out is SOME people in Kilkenny, Waterford, etc. on the southeast coast on their oracles get Sweden and Norway higher up on the list than other Irish get. Western Ireland does seem quite close to English, despite some believing they wouldn't be. Also, the people of Cork seem close to Cornwall.

As the German invaders moved into Celtic territories they assimilated a significant number of Celts which ended up making the invaders more Celtic and less German.

CillKenny
09-05-2017, 08:25 AM
Just saw on GGI facebook page that Ed Gilbert will be presenting on the Irish DNA Atlas on 15 September at a genetic conference in Croke Park. I will be away sadly.

Heber
09-05-2017, 11:36 AM
The programme for the 2017 ISHG meeting to be held at Croke Park on Friday September 15th is available here.

It includes a presentation of the Irish DNA Atlas

S09. The Irish DNA Atlas; Revealing Fine Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland.
EH Gilbert, S O’Reilly, M Merrigan, D McGettigan, AM Molloy, LC Brody, W Bodmer, K Hutnik, S Ennis, DJ Lawson, JF Wilson, GL Cavalleri

http://irishsocietyofhumangenetics.blogspot.co.uk/

Also included
Keynote address: “Identifying the sources of the Icelandic gene pool” Prof. Agnar Helgasson, DeCode Genetics, Iceland

S03. Cataloguing inherited disorders amongst the Irish Traveller population
SA Lynch, E Crushell, N Byrne, K Gorman, M King, A Irvine, A Monavari, I Knerr, M Cotter, V McConnell, A Green, F Browne, D Lambert, J Turner, J Casey

I plan to attend and will report back on any new developments.

MacUalraig
09-05-2017, 12:45 PM
Only on for 10 mins, is that right?

The Icelandic talk should be good and has a decent time slot.

CillKenny
09-05-2017, 01:17 PM
Seems so. Audience is likely expert so might be sufficient for them

Sikeliot
09-05-2017, 10:17 PM
As the German invaders moved into Celtic territories they assimilated a significant number of Celts which ended up making the invaders more Celtic and less German.

What I am getting from this is that the native Irish are substantially similar to all Northwest Europeans, whether directly descended from them or not.

fridurich
09-06-2017, 01:39 AM
The programme for the 2017 ISHG meeting to be held at Croke Park on Friday September 15th is available here.

It includes a presentation of the Irish DNA Atlas

S09. The Irish DNA Atlas; Revealing Fine Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland.
EH Gilbert, S O’Reilly, M Merrigan, D McGettigan, AM Molloy, LC Brody, W Bodmer, K Hutnik, S Ennis, DJ Lawson, JF Wilson, GL Cavalleri

http://irishsocietyofhumangenetics.blogspot.co.uk/

Also included
Keynote address: “Identifying the sources of the Icelandic gene pool” Prof. Agnar Helgasson, DeCode Genetics, Iceland

S03. Cataloguing inherited disorders amongst the Irish Traveller population
SA Lynch, E Crushell, N Byrne, K Gorman, M King, A Irvine, A Monavari, I Knerr, M Cotter, V McConnell, A Green, F Browne, D Lambert, J Turner, J Casey

I plan to attend and will report back on any new developments.

Sounds interesting! Thanks for going to it, and being willing to report back to us what they say.

sktibo
09-06-2017, 04:48 AM
Wait.. am I understanding this correctly... the results will finally be presented on the 15th??!!!!


What I am getting from this is that the native Irish are substantially similar to all Northwest Europeans, whether directly descended from them or not.

I suppose in the end there's a lot of Bell-Beaker genetic similarity going around

Sikeliot
09-10-2017, 01:57 PM
I suppose in the end there's a lot of Bell-Beaker genetic similarity going around

This is my impression, that Irish, Germans, Brits, and Dutch all share the same founding population base, and thus migrations to and from would not show up on GEDmatch.

kevinduffy
09-11-2017, 02:26 AM
What I am getting from this is that the native Irish are substantially similar to all Northwest Europeans, whether directly descended from them or not.

This is because the German invaders absorbed a lot of Celtic DNA as they moved westwards into Celtic territories.

Sikeliot
09-11-2017, 02:55 AM
This is because the German invaders absorbed a lot of Celtic DNA as they moved westwards into Celtic territories.

Yes. The English (even SE English) are obviously closer to the Irish despite their elevated continental Germanic ancestry, and most of England would be even closer.

sktibo
09-12-2017, 12:10 AM
Only three days till the big Irish DNA Atlas reveal!

...Sorry I'm just way too excited about this... anyone else have it marked on their calendar?

Jessie
09-12-2017, 03:09 AM
Only three days till the big Irish DNA Atlas reveal!

...Sorry I'm just way too excited about this... anyone else have it marked on their calendar?

I've been following this since it was announced. Yes I'm very excited to hear any updates on the project.

Solothurn
09-12-2017, 03:27 AM
If somebody has Irish, albeit 1.2% will this update give a specific region in an update or will it just stay as Irish?

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 06:04 AM
I attended an excellent (standing room only) lunchtime lecture given by Dr Gianpiero Cavalleri at the National Library of Ireland.
He shared some insights into the progress of the Irish DNA Atlas Project and preliminary results.
Below is a summary of my notes:
1) Autosomal DNA analysis
2) 30 mutations per generation approx
3) Referenced Genes mirror geography in Europe, Novembre et al 2008
4) Referenced POBI, Leslie et al 2015
5) POBI 4060 samples
7) Referenced Population Transformations in Europe, Haak et al 2015
8) Referenced Large scale recent expansion of European , Batini et Al, 2015
9) Referenced The Y Tree bursts into life , Hallast et Al, 2014

173 samples to date
142 sequenced FGS ?
Strict criteria 8 great grand parents from same locality 30 km radius
Average age 61
Average time great grand parent lived 1848
More sample required in Midlands, Shannon and three other areas

Atlas follows regional organisation
Connaught Highest
Munster
Ulster similar to POBI W Scotland
Leinster

Admixture analysis,
Atlantic Europe (WE Seaboard), Blue. Highest
North Europe, Red, next
South Europe, Green, next
Admixture Analysis (Atlantic Component)
Ireland
Britain
France
Spain
Germany
Italy

Y Analysis by Mark Jobling
R1b-M269. 90% ? estimated 4.5-5.6k ybp
R1b-M222. 20% estimated 1.5k ybp

Estimated R1b-M269 expansion Yamna Late Neolithic.
Samples are used as reference data in other Population studies.

Irish Traveler DNA Project distinct from General Irish Population.
Possibly due to intermarriage.
Estimated divergence 777 ybp, approx 1300s

Next step compare samples to Yamna samples.
Y analysis by Mark Jobling.
No date for publication.

I asked the question about possibility of ancient DNA samples in Ireland.
Response although many bog bodies recovered, difficult to extract ancient DNA
My interpretation of Admixture analysis sequence would suggest later expansion in Atlantic Europe, possibly by P312.

Excellent start. Looking forward to publication.

How similar exactly was Ulster to SouthWest Scotland ? AncestryDNA keeps trying to tell me that my genetic communities is Ulster Irish but I can't tell whether I am Scottish or Ulster Irish because different genetic companies and different tools tell me different things but apparently there is little to no difference. Also, should I just wait for the Atlas release in three days or whatnot for a definitive answer ? Thanks.

spruithean
09-12-2017, 12:45 PM
How similar exactly was Ulster to SouthWest Scotland ? AncestryDNA keeps trying to tell me that my genetic communities is Ulster Irish but I can't tell whether I am Scottish or Ulster Irish because different genetic companies and different tools tell me different things but apparently there is little to no difference. Also, should I just wait for the Atlas release in three days or whatnot for a definitive answer ? Thanks.

Considering the early migrations of Dál Riata and the later Ulster Plantations there is going to be some large crossover between Ulster and SW Scotland. Also worth noting there was some Irish migration to SW Scotland in more "recent" years.

Sikeliot
09-12-2017, 08:50 PM
Just to see if I am right, these are my expectations of the findings:

1. Ulster Protestants will be at least half Scottish in ancestry with a significant amount of English influence, too.
2. Ulster Catholics will have very little non-Irish ancestry of any kind, but that which they do have will be Scottish.
3. Leinster and the Midlands region will have significant English ancestry (my guess is up to 1/3) especially around Dublin.
4. Munster will vary, but there will be one Munster cluster which has very little non-Irish ancestry, but most of it will be English.
5. Connacht will be closer to Leinster and not as isolated as we think.

spruithean
09-13-2017, 12:26 AM
Just to see if I am right, these are my expectations of the findings:

1. Ulster Protestants will be at least half Scottish in ancestry with a significant amount of English influence, too.
2. Ulster Catholics will have very little non-Irish ancestry of any kind, but that which they do have will be Scottish.
3. Leinster and the Midlands region will have significant English ancestry (my guess is up to 1/3) especially around Dublin.
4. Munster will vary, but there will be one Munster cluster which has very little non-Irish ancestry, but most of it will be English.
5. Connacht will be closer to Leinster and not as isolated as we think.

Fairly reasonable expectations I think.

I'm interested to see the clusters, might give me an idea of how my Irish ancestors may have clustered. My ancestors from Ireland were a patchwork of various groups ranging from all over Ireland.

fridurich
09-13-2017, 03:27 AM
Well, I have some exciting news. On the Irish DNA Facebook group, I asked Maurice Gleeson if he thought we were getting close to getting published results soon for the Irish DNA Atlas project. He said yes, and that the final results of the project will be discussed by Ed Gilbert! Maurice said it wouldn't be recorded as it might endanger chances for publication. He said that we could anticipate publication some time during 2018. I think the event that Maurice is speaking of where Ed will speak about the Irish DNA Project is the Genetic Genealogy Ireland Conference 2017 which will be Oct. 20-22 in Dublin.

So, at long last, it will come to completion, and there will be someone presenting the final results at the conference!! Hoor-ahh!!!

fridurich
09-13-2017, 03:45 AM
The programme for the 2017 ISHG meeting to be held at Croke Park on Friday September 15th is available here.

It includes a presentation of the Irish DNA Atlas

S09. The Irish DNA Atlas; Revealing Fine Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland.
EH Gilbert, S O’Reilly, M Merrigan, D McGettigan, AM Molloy, LC Brody, W Bodmer, K Hutnik, S Ennis, DJ Lawson, JF Wilson, GL Cavalleri

http://irishsocietyofhumangenetics.blogspot.co.uk/

Also included
Keynote address: “Identifying the sources of the Icelandic gene pool” Prof. Agnar Helgasson, DeCode Genetics, Iceland

S03. Cataloguing inherited disorders amongst the Irish Traveller population
SA Lynch, E Crushell, N Byrne, K Gorman, M King, A Irvine, A Monavari, I Knerr, M Cotter, V McConnell, A Green, F Browne, D Lambert, J Turner, J Casey

I plan to attend and will report back on any new developments.

I see where it shows Ed Gilbert will speak on the Irish DNA Atlas at the Croke Park event on Sep. 15. In the message Maurice Gleeson gave me on the Irish DNA Facebook group, he didn't mention Croke Park. He also mentioned Roberta Estes as well as Ed Gilbert, and I saw the dates October 20-22, in Dublin. So to me, Maurice seemed to indicate the presentation of the Irish DNA Atlas results would be Oct. 20-22. However, looking at the link you provided, it appears that Gilbert will speak about the Irish DNA Atlas project on Sep. 15. I'm a little baffled why Maurice didn't mention Gilbert speaking about it on that date. Maybe Gilbert's speech at that time won't be a full reveal, and the full revelation will be Oct. 20-22?

Sikeliot
09-13-2017, 03:55 AM
Fairly reasonable expectations I think.

I'm interested to see the clusters, might give me an idea of how my Irish ancestors may have clustered. My ancestors from Ireland were a patchwork of various groups ranging from all over Ireland.

I will also add, I think it'll give a strong hint that many of the Irish on AncestryDNA scoring 25%+ Great Britain may not have any British ancestry that is recently traceable, but accumulated over the last 1000 years. On that preliminary PCA plot I have been showing many times, if we use the Ulster 12 cluster as close to 'pure' Irish, then the people of Leinster on the same plot appear 1/3 to 1/2 British, Connacht about 1/4 to 1/3 British, and the other Munster cluster varying wildly, with the Ulster Protestants coming up almost indistinguishable from Scots.

So I think it's likely that we will leave from this study seeing the Irish as being substantially mixed with Brits, with only isolated pockets of "pure" Irish left. And likely none of them will be in Leinster, Connacht, or the midlands.

sktibo
09-13-2017, 03:59 AM
Surely we can get the results posted here before they're published somehow? I just don't think I can wait until 2018

slievenamon
09-13-2017, 09:05 AM
Surely we can get the results posted here before they're published somehow? I just don't think I can wait until 2018

I second that emotion...2018 is far too long!

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 09:50 AM
I'd be cautious about building too much from the PCA plot, mainly as it doesn't include a contiental Germanic population (Dutch or for example Norwegian), we have to remember of course that the English are an admixed population. As a result they will always have some closeness to Irish people as this reflects the shared insular ancestry prior to Germanic input in the sub-roman period. I'm reminded of the paper which compared Ireland, UK, Danish and Swedish populations on a PCA

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/northern-europeans.png

As can be seen the 'UK' group has overlap with Ireland to certain extent but it's also 'drawn' towards the Netherlands/Danish populations due to shared ancestry.

I imagine if you added Dutch sample into the PoBI/Irish-DNA Atlas you would see a chunk of the 'English' cluster shifting further away from Ireland (likewise for Orkney).

the other PCA chart from that talk interesting enough spilt out some of the PoBI clusters, such as Borders, South Wales, North Wales etc.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Atlas02-fs.png

cilldara
09-13-2017, 11:37 AM
What percentage did Irish people here get for Great Britain on AncestryDNA? I'm from Kildare and I got 11% Great Britain. I got 81% Irish. The only Genetic Community I belong to is Ulster Irish (Irish in the North Midlands).

Sikeliot
09-13-2017, 11:40 AM
What percentage did Irish people here get for Great Britain on AncestryDNA? I'm from Kildare and I got 11% Great Britain. I got 81% Irish. The only Genetic Community I belong to is Ulster Irish (Irish in the North Midlands).

What was the rest of your score?

You're from the more historically English influenced part of Ireland so it is not surprising it gives you 1/8 British, but I am curious about the remainder.

cilldara
09-13-2017, 11:52 AM
What was the rest of your score?

You're from the more historically English influenced part of Ireland so it is not surprising it gives you 1/8 British, but I am curious about the remainder.

Finland/Northwest Russia - 3%
Europe West - 2%
Scandinavia - 2%
Italy/Greece - 1%

I always seem get the Finland or Baltic region. I'm 5% Finland on FTDNA and 9% Baltic on MyHeritage. I don't get anything from that region on 23andMe, but I do get 4% Broadly Northwestern European.

Jessie
09-13-2017, 11:59 AM
Finland/Northwest Russia - 3%
Europe West - 2%
Scandinavia - 2%
Italy/Greece - 1%

I always seem get the Finland or Baltic region. I'm 5% Finland on FTDNA and 9% Baltic on MyHeritage. I don't get anything from that region on 23andMe, but I do get 4% Broadly Northwestern European.

Hi cilldara - Could you add your Ancestry results to this thread if you don't mind?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11572-AncestryDNA-results-from-across-Europe

cilldara
09-13-2017, 12:49 PM
Hi cilldara - Could you add your Ancestry results to this thread if you don't mind?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11572-AncestryDNA-results-from-across-Europe

Yeah, no problem. I've added them.

avalon
09-13-2017, 04:21 PM
There is also this PCA which I believe is a photo taken from an IDA talk. The colours aren't that clear but you can just make out that the English are shifted towards Germany, whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish are further away from Germany as we should expect from history.

Hopefully the final IDA paper will provide a good quality European PCA.

18722

sktibo
09-13-2017, 07:56 PM
There is also this PCA which I believe is a photo taken from an IDA talk. The colours aren't that clear but you can just make out that the English are shifted towards Germany, whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish are further away from Germany as we should expect from history.

Hopefully the final IDA paper will provide a good quality European PCA.

18722

I wish I could make out those colours more distinctly

spruithean
09-13-2017, 08:38 PM
I wish I could make out those colours more distinctly

From what I can see on the right hand side:
- top right, green = Ireland
- just below that is Wales
- below that Scotland & Orkney(?)
- England (sort of a subtle grey white)
- Germany (turquoise), to the lower right of Germany is Norway

To the left of the Germany-England-Scotland-Wales-Ireland band is France. To the left of France is a mixture of Italy and Spain, with Spain seeming to plot above (yet still sort of within?) the Italy swathe.

avalon
09-14-2017, 05:41 AM
From what I can see on the right hand side:
- top right, green = Ireland
- just below that is Wales
- below that Scotland & Orkney(?)
- England (sort of a subtle grey white)
- Germany (turquoise), to the lower right of Germany is Norway

To the left of the Germany-England-Scotland-Wales-Ireland band is France. To the left of France is a mixture of Italy and Spain, with Spain seeming to plot above (yet still sort of within?) the Italy swathe.

Interesting how close Orkney and Scotland are on this PCA. In the POBI project, Orkney was very distinct from rest of UK but it just goes to show how a PCA chart can differ, depending on which populations you use and the individual samples that are used. I think this chart uses POBI data but I am not sure. Hopefully final IDA paper will shed more light on this.

sktibo
09-14-2017, 04:11 PM
Interesting how close Orkney and Scotland are on this PCA. In the POBI project, Orkney was very distinct from rest of UK but it just goes to show how a PCA chart can differ, depending on which populations you use and the individual samples that are used. I think this chart uses POBI data but I am not sure. Hopefully final IDA paper will shed more light on this.

It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!

avalon
09-14-2017, 06:31 PM
It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!

Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.

As I understand it, POBI and Irish travellers paper both used fineStructure analysis for their PCAs which is a method used to detect fine-scale genetic structure in a population such as UK/Ireland where population structure is actually very limited. fineStructure is probably able to tease out subtle differences, such as the Welsh and Irish Travellers likely experiencing some sort of genetic drift.

I might be wrong but I think the European PCA uses a different analysis, but still interesting as it does show that within a European context, the Celtic fringe areas are very similar to each other.

Saetro
09-15-2017, 01:09 AM
Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.

What is it about the POBI Welsh results that make them unsuitable in your eyes?
Not enough numbers?
Not rooted as firmly as the Irish which went back one generation further than POBI?

Sikeliot
09-15-2017, 01:33 AM
It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!

It is my belief that the Scots are generally closer to the English than to the Irish, so a lot of Irish who appear Scottish-like may be people who have a lot of English ancestry in the right amount to make them plot with genetically intermediate Scots. Not all (or even most) of Scotland was Gaelic speaking!

Jessie
09-15-2017, 02:15 AM
Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.

As I understand it, POBI and Irish travellers paper both used fineStructure analysis for their PCAs which is a method used to detect fine-scale genetic structure in a population such as UK/Ireland where population structure is actually very limited. fineStructure is probably able to tease out subtle differences, such as the Welsh and Irish Travellers likely experiencing some sort of genetic drift.

I might be wrong but I think the European PCA uses a different analysis, but still interesting as it does show that within a European context, the Celtic fringe areas are very similar to each other.

I think historically the northern part of Ireland and the northwest will definitely be closer to Scots. Even looking at things like ydna the Irish and Scots are closer e.g. M222 also show more a connection between the Irish and Scots. In my brother's subclade under M222 it is shared with Irish and Scottish men.

Looking at the results of something like LivingDNA as well shows more Scottish regions for Irish testers than Welsh and of course there is the shared language to consider.

Possibly the more southern areas might have more a pull to Wales e.g. Cambro-Normans. Can't wait for more results to be released.

Just adding that these populations are all quite close to each other anyway.

timberwolf
09-15-2017, 02:19 AM
When is this data being released?

Jessie
09-15-2017, 02:24 AM
When is this data being released?

Not sure when the full results will be released but hopefully some information will be forthcoming later today.

sktibo
09-15-2017, 02:37 AM
It is my belief that the Scots are generally closer to the English than to the Irish, so a lot of Irish who appear Scottish-like may be people who have a lot of English ancestry in the right amount to make them plot with genetically intermediate Scots. Not all (or even most) of Scotland was Gaelic speaking!

I think that depends on how far back in time you're going:

18744

As I understand it most of Scotland still spoke Gaelic 600 years ago
If you go back far enough, almost all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking. The exception was probably the Southeast in which it was probably mostly the upper classes of the time who spoke it as I doubt it ever took hold as the common language there

avalon
09-15-2017, 12:23 PM
What is it about the POBI Welsh results that make them unsuitable in your eyes?
Not enough numbers?
Not rooted as firmly as the Irish which went back one generation further than POBI?

POBI was fairly good, it just could have been better if they'd done sampling at great-grandparent level within a local area, like the IDA. Also, the sampling was good in Anglesey and Pembrokeshire but not very good elsewhere in Wales.

avalon
09-15-2017, 01:46 PM
I think historically the northern part of Ireland and the northwest will definitely be closer to Scots. Even looking at things like ydna the Irish and Scots are closer e.g. M222 also show more a connection between the Irish and Scots. In my brother's subclade under M222 it is shared with Irish and Scottish men.

Looking at the results of something like LivingDNA as well shows more Scottish regions for Irish testers than Welsh and of course there is the shared language to consider.

Possibly the more southern areas might have more a pull to Wales e.g. Cambro-Normans. Can't wait for more results to be released.

Just adding that these populations are all quite close to each other anyway.

Totally agree. Another factor to consider re, Wales and Ireland would be the Irish settlements in West Wales following end of Roman Empire. I have always thought, based on language, that the genetic impact was minimal but I might be wrong.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/End.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg/800px-End.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg

jonathanmcg1990
09-15-2017, 02:36 PM
I think that depends on how far back in time you're going:

18744

As I understand it most of Scotland still spoke Gaelic 600 years ago
If you go back far enough, almost all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking. The exception was probably the Southeast in which it was probably mostly the upper classes of the time who spoke it as I doubt it ever took hold as the common language there

Hi Sktibo

This is very interesting to see the Cumbria going into South West Scotland. What a consequence when you see people with Ulster Scots ancestry reporting high Cumbria percentages instead of what you think would be Ulster Scot signature as South West Scotland and Northern Ireland on LivingDNA.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Dubhthach
09-15-2017, 03:02 PM
I think that depends on how far back in time you're going:

18744

As I understand it most of Scotland still spoke Gaelic 600 years ago
If you go back far enough, almost all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking. The exception was probably the Southeast in which it was probably mostly the upper classes of the time who spoke it as I doubt it ever took hold as the common language there

Following are fairly interesting maps based on placename analysis:

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map4-w400.png

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map5-w400.png

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map6-w400.png


What is now Scotland south of the Forth-Clyde isthmus remained part of Northumbria for about three hundred years until, with Northumbria weakened by the attacks of the Vikings (see below), it was ceded to the Scots. Exactly when the Scots acquired Lothian (in the broad sense of Scottish Northumbria from the Forth to the Tweed) is unclear - dates ranging from 973 (Lothian ceded by Edgar) to 1018 (Scottish victory at Carham) are given in different sources. However, Barrow considers that the supposed cession of Lothian simply accepted a fait accompli and that this territory had fallen under Scottish control already. Long before 973 "the Scots were exerting pressure upon, and indeed almost certainly appropriating for settlement, the territory north of Lammermuir" (1962: 12),[12] hence the large number of Gaelic place-names in Lothian. Nicolaisen contrasts baile 'hamlet' and achadh 'field' names - the absence of the latter in the south-east of Scotland suggests that the small numbers of Gaelic speakers in the east were "landowners rather than tillers of the soil" (1976: 128) (see Maps 4 and 5).

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/history-of-scots/origins/

What should be noted is that 'baile' which today is basically used to mean 'town' in Irish was use to refer to an 'estate'/'Settlement'/'farmland' in old/middle Irish. As a result the presence of 'baile' placenames within Lothian (there are small number) probably reflects the imposition of a Old/Middle-Irish speaking landholding elite. Subsequently like the Normans they underwent language shift to local vernacular (what would eventually become Scots).

The western Lowlands in comparison saw the spread of Old Irish driven not necessary by the Kingdom of Scots but by expansion of the Gall-Goídel (Gall-Ghaeil) eg. the Norse-Gaels, carving out Galloway.

sktibo
09-15-2017, 04:59 PM
Well folks, it's the 15th. I'll be hanging around hear hoping to see some new charts or hear something fresh about the Irish DNA Atlas. Here's to hoping!

fridurich
09-15-2017, 05:45 PM
Well folks, it's the 15th. I'll be hanging around hear hoping to see some new charts or hear something fresh about the Irish DNA Atlas. Here's to hoping!
I agree, I hope we hear something fresh about it soon too!

Also, I hope any photos of charts or graphics are high resolution with no glare from lights so we can see any small symbols clearly and easily tell their color. This is key to more easily interpreting them! Most cell phone cameras take good photos nowadays, but maybe a regular digital camera and certainly a DSLR would be better! However, I do appreciate the efforts of those who have given us the charts and graphics from the Irish DNA Atlas project that we have. Also, not sure if they will allow photos this time.

Robert1
09-15-2017, 06:26 PM
Really, no rush at all. After all it's been years, but please, please get it right!

Heber
09-15-2017, 08:56 PM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Jessie
09-15-2017, 09:31 PM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Sounds very intriguing with the clusters. Just enough teasers in there to make us suffer. :) So now another month long wait for more info.

jonathanmcg1990
09-15-2017, 09:54 PM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

I wondering how many are Irish Traveller X

Sikeliot
09-15-2017, 11:22 PM
I also expect some parts of southern Ireland especially Cork/Waterford/Wexford to show some links to SW England like Cornwall, Devon, etc (West Country).

Do people think the Gaeltacht areas will differ genetically or no?

timberwolf
09-15-2017, 11:28 PM
Well I am 50% Cornish and this is what Sktibo came up with, using his K36 model.

So I think you are right.

NWINSULAR_RoscoTippWexfordDublin 70.85
NWINSULAR_Northern_Ireland2 25.75
MED_Tuscany 2.15
BASQUE_French_Basque 1.25

Sikeliot
09-16-2017, 12:11 AM
Well I am 50% Cornish and this is what Sktibo came up with, using his K36 model.

So I think you are right.

NWINSULAR_RoscoTippWexfordDublin 70.85
NWINSULAR_Northern_Ireland2 25.75
MED_Tuscany 2.15
BASQUE_French_Basque 1.25


I have seen GEDmatch results where that part of Ireland shifts toward Cornwall also. Not sure if it is due to genuine influence from SW England or Wales, or if it is an ancient connection.

Jessie
09-16-2017, 02:07 AM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Does this appear to be other's people understanding from the brief snippets above. That the Irish are a fairly homogenous population. There is a NW France cluster and a Norwegian cluster. Admixture events are Ulster (of course) but also evidence of Viking/Norse.

I wish a little more detail was given at the conference but hopefully in October more information and details will emerge. Much thanks to Heber for always keeping us informed.

A NW French cluster wouldn't be too surprising as there appears to be a close genetic connection between places like Brittany and Ireland as per that study on France which showed the highest IBS sharing between the Irish and Bretons.

http://membres-timc.imag.fr/Nicolas.Duforet-Frebourg/papers/finescale.pdf

Sikeliot
09-16-2017, 03:51 AM
Does this imply the non-Irish ancestry in Ireland is very low all over?

avalon
09-16-2017, 11:09 AM
Does this appear to be other's people understanding from the brief snippets above. That the Irish are a fairly homogenous population. There is a NW France cluster and a Norwegian cluster. Admixture events are Ulster (of course) but also evidence of Viking/Norse.

I wish a little more detail was given at the conference but hopefully in October more information and details will emerge. Much thanks to Heber for always keeping us informed.

A NW French cluster wouldn't be too surprising as there appears to be a close genetic connection between places like Brittany and Ireland as per that study on France which showed the highest IBS sharing between the Irish and Bretons.

http://membres-timc.imag.fr/Nicolas.Duforet-Frebourg/papers/finescale.pdf

I'm surprised how small the cohort is, only 192 people. I would have thought they'd need more than that to cover all of Ireland comprehensively.

I guess it probably is quite difficult to find people nowadays who have 8 g-grandparents born within 50km as modern populations are generally very mixed.

Jessie
09-16-2017, 11:22 AM
I'm surprised how small the cohort is, only 192 people. I would have thought they'd need more than that to cover all of Ireland comprehensively.

I guess it probably is quite difficult to find people nowadays who have 8 g-grandparents born within 50km as modern populations are generally very mixed.

Yes I can imagine it would be difficult. I know people have been moving to Dublin from the country areas for generations. My family did this. Saying that though my mother's family were long term in one area for generations as was my father but myself and all my cousins have a more mixed ancestry and wouldn't have been eligible for IDNAA.

MacUalraig
09-16-2017, 12:56 PM
192 isn't that much divided by 32. But what I'd really like to know is whether there was extra selection depending on factors like surname or (dare I say it) religion/ethnic self-identification? Did they include Ulster names that could equally well be from either background? etc. In short without seeing such additional data, which its safe to say we won't, we will never quite know what to make of it. I asked the same questions of Mike Mulligan about the Ancestry Irish reference panel and never got an answer.

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 02:11 PM
I'm surprised how small the cohort is, only 192 people. I would have thought they'd need more than that to cover all of Ireland comprehensively.

I guess it probably is quite difficult to find people nowadays who have 8 g-grandparents born within 50km as modern populations are generally very mixed.

Exactly, both myself and my father are excluded from taking part due to this. Basically it excludes all cases where there is inter-Ireland migration in the last 150 years. In my case my 8 great-grandparents are:
Belfast, Liverpool-Irish, East Galway, Cork, Clare, Clare, Clare, Clare

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 02:12 PM
192 isn't that much divided by 32. But what I'd really like to know is whether there was extra selection depending on factors like surname or (dare I say it) religion/ethnic self-identification? Did they include Ulster names that could equally well be from either background? etc. In short without seeing such additional data, which its safe to say we won't, we will never quite know what to make of it. I asked the same questions of Mike Mulligan about the Ancestry Irish reference panel and never got an answer.

No, I think their sole criteria was that all 8 great-grandparents had to be born within a specific geographic region on island of Ireland (eg within 50km)

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 02:17 PM
As for internal regions, here is a map of basic political structure in early 10th century. It doesn't take into account that 'Bréifne' is a marcher lordship of Connacht, or that Osraighe is generally a quasi independent part of the kingdom of Laighin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Ireland900.png/1200px-Ireland900.png

From a point of Lordship and genealogy the following were ruled by lineages are all listed as been close relatives eg. Connachta/Bréifne, Northern Uí Néill and Southern Uí Néill
eg:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eochaid-connachta.png

Unsurprisingly in previous talk they gave the FineStructure threw up to major Clusters that divided Ireland in half, which correspond with the pseudo-historical narrative of Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha (divided by line running Galway to Dublin)

rozenfeld
09-16-2017, 04:19 PM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Aren't there like 4 ancient genomes from Ireland?

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 05:02 PM
Aren't there like 4 ancient genomes from Ireland?

I'm assuming they are using the two high grade one, which if memory serves me right was Rathlin1 and the Ballynahatty (Neolithic female), both of those were sequenced 10x or there abouts, whereas Rathlin2 and Rathlin3 were more in the range of 2x-3x sequencing. Of course what we really need is some early medieval genomes as well, as those would provide a baseline for before the Cambro-Norman invasion in 1169.

fridurich
09-16-2017, 05:15 PM
I think historically the northern part of Ireland and the northwest will definitely be closer to Scots. Even looking at things like ydna the Irish and Scots are closer e.g. M222 also show more a connection between the Irish and Scots. In my brother's subclade under M222 it is shared with Irish and Scottish men.

Looking at the results of something like LivingDNA as well shows more Scottish regions for Irish testers than Welsh and of course there is the shared language to consider.

Possibly the more southern areas might have more a pull to Wales e.g. Cambro-Normans. Can't wait for more results to be released.

Just adding that these populations are all quite close to each other anyway.

You make a good point with YDNA. I too am M222>S588. Looking at the S588 guys on Iain Kennedy's M222 chart, and looking at them on the Big Tree, there are a lot of Irish surnames and a lot of Scottish Surnames. At Yfull, www.yfull.com/tree/R-S588/ it says that S588 was formed about 1850 years ago, and time to most recent common ancestor for all S588 guys was about 1450 years ago. So that appears to show the common ancestor for all S588 guys lived about 1450 years ago.

So even though some Scottish guys may hate the thought of an Irish origin for it, and some Irish S588 guys may hate the thought of a Scottish origin for S588, the important thing is they all had a COMMON ANCESTOR SOMEWHERE and are distant kin to each other. Whether that ancestor was born in Scotland, Ireland, England, or Wales, they still have a common origin! The most important thing is the truth, and hopefully some day there will be a string of ancient DNA S588 finds that can point to the origin.

Personally I think it originated in either Scotland, Ireland, or northern England, but prepared to accept the truth about where ever it first was formed. My last name is O'Hair, and I have Gaelic Irish, Ulster Scots, Scottish, English, and Welsh ancestry, along with that of other European countries.

The division of S588 that I am is S603. It seems to have more Irish to Scottish surnames, but there are definitely Scottish surnames in it such as the Struan Robertsons (Clann Donnachaidh) in Perthshire. Also, some of the surnames in both S588 an S603 appear English, and some could be, but I think the majority of those are anglicizations.

Also, the subclade of M222, DF85, also has a lot of Irish and Scottish surnames. Moreover, there are other haplogroups besides M222 that have Irish and Scottish descencants as well.

Kind Regards

fridurich
09-16-2017, 05:35 PM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Thanks Heber so much for providing these notes! Two questions: I thought the thinking on the amount of Viking DNA in Ireland was thought to be real small (at least several years aoo, that was the thinking), so is there a significant amount of Viking DNA in the Irish?

It says 3 shared British/Irish clusters N. Ireland. Does that mean there are 3 different Planter clusters in N. Ireland that are shared in the sense that they also appear in Southwest Scotland/N. England?

In the POBI, I remember one Planter cluster of N. Ireland and Southwest Scotland (Yellow Circles?), but it was shown to be closest genetically (out of all the clusters of the British Isles at a certain amount of K) to the Gaelic Irish of N. Ireland and W. Scotland (green triangles maybe).

Many thanks for any clarification!
Kind Regards

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 05:55 PM
Thanks Heber so much for providing these notes! Two questions: I thought the thinking on the amount of Viking DNA in Ireland was thought to be real small (at least several years aoo, that was the thinking), so is there a significant amount of Viking DNA in the Irish?

It says 3 shared British/Irish clusters N. Ireland. Does that mean there are 3 different Planter clusters in N. Ireland that are shared in the sense that they also appear in Southwest Scotland/N. England?

In the POBI, I remember one Planter cluster of N. Ireland and Southwest Scotland (Yellow Circles?), but it was shown to be closest genetically (out of all the clusters of the British Isles at a certain amount of K) to the Gaelic Irish of N. Ireland and W. Scotland (green triangles maybe).

Many thanks for any clarification!
Kind Regards

Well this is just me spitballing, but I imagine the three clusters might be something like:

1. Northern Ireland -- Lowland Scottish admixture eg. Presbytrian
2. Northern Ireland -- English admixture eg. Church of Ireland (Anglican -- Episcopalian in US)
3. Dublin/Rest of Ireland -- English type admixture eg. Anglo-Irish

If memory serves me right when it came to finestructure map that was in other presentation they had circles in Dublin that match English/Scottish ancestry seen in context of province of Ulster.

MacUalraig
09-16-2017, 05:56 PM
Well I thought of the first two as well but three all in N. Ireland, if correct, raises eyebrows a bit.

fridurich
09-16-2017, 09:15 PM
Well this is just me spitballing, but I imagine the three clusters might be something like:

1. Northern Ireland -- Lowland Scottish admixture eg. Presbytrian
2. Northern Ireland -- English admixture eg. Church of Ireland (Anglican -- Episcopalian in US)
3. Dublin/Rest of Ireland -- English type admixture eg. Anglo-Irish

If memory serves me right when it came to finestructure map that was in other presentation they had circles in Dublin that match English/Scottish ancestry seen in context of province of Ulster.

Thanks Dubhthach. Was the map you refer to one that the Irish DNA Atlas had that had red and blue rings? Seems like some of the rings were more faintly blue or a fainter red, maybe almost whitish. I didn't know if there was any significance to seemingly different shades of blue or red. Perhaps it was just the quality of the photo, or glare from a light, or both that made, it seem there were shades of blue and red. There may have been green circles too.

Dubhthach
09-17-2017, 12:06 AM
Thanks Dubhthach. Was the map you refer to one that the Irish DNA Atlas had that had red and blue rings? Seems like some of the rings were more faintly blue or a fainter red, maybe almost whitish. I didn't know if there was any significance to seemingly different shades of blue or red. Perhaps it was just the quality of the photo, or glare from a light, or both that made, it seem there were shades of blue and red. There may have been green circles too.

As you mention the image (Which I have a copy of) contains three finestructure clusters these are:
Red: N. Ireland
Blue: S. Ireland
Yellow/Green(?): N. England / SW. Scotland

It's fairly consitent case of a line from Galway <-> Dublin, north of this you got Red Circles, south Blue circles, the 'Yellow/Green' show up in not only Northern Ireland, but also Monaghan and East Donegal. They also show up in Dublin region ('The Pale')

I think the issue regarding the shades of blue or red is actually just down to low quality of the photo.

Sikeliot
09-17-2017, 04:57 PM
I ran some Irish through Dodecad K12b, and I noticed that some of them are nearly identical on that calculator to their Kent (SE England) reference population, and others are closer to Dutch. This is why I struggle with understanding why on some PCA plots, the Irish are further away from continental Germanics than the English. Shouldn't they be more northern sifted than English because they have even less "Med" type affinity than the English?

Jessie
09-18-2017, 01:39 AM
I ran some Irish through Dodecad K12b, and I noticed that some of them are nearly identical on that calculator to their Kent (SE England) reference population, and others are closer to Dutch. This is why I struggle with understanding why on some PCA plots, the Irish are further away from continental Germanics than the English. Shouldn't they be more northern sifted than English because they have even less "Med" type affinity than the English?

This is my Dodecad K12b. I've always found Dodecad not very accurate as all my family get Irish well down the list. I'd be surprised if any Irish person gets Irish as their No 1 using Dodecad calculators. The best calculators I've found has been Eurogenes and the MDLP K23b.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_European 46.55
2 Atlantic_Med 37.86
3 Gedrosia 10.16
4 Caucasus 5.01
5 Southwest_Asian 0.21
6 Siberian 0.21

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Dutch (Dodecad) 1.53
2 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 2.64
3 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 4.04
4 English (Dodecad) 4.28
5 Kent (1000Genomes) 4.66
6 British_Isles (Dodecad) 5.1
7 Argyll (1000Genomes) 5.87
8 Orkney (1000Genomes) 5.96
9 Orcadian (HGDP) 6.42
10 Irish (Dodecad) 6.57
11 British (Dodecad) 6.85
12 German (Dodecad) 7.06
13 Cornwall (1000Genomes) 7.14
14 Norwegian (Dodecad) 9.04
15 French (Dodecad) 11.23
16 Swedish (Dodecad) 11.26
17 French (HGDP) 11.83
18 Hungarians (Behar) 15.56
19 Cataluna (1000Genomes) 24.39
20 Polish (Dodecad) 24.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 22.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 0.2
2 95.8% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.2% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.63
3 81.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 18.5% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 0.65
4 95.9% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 0.71
5 96% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 0.75
6 54.7% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 45.3% German (Dodecad) @ 0.77
7 51.8% Irish (Dodecad) + 48.2% German (Dodecad) @ 0.79
8 96.4% Dutch (Dodecad) + 3.6% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 0.79
9 96.6% Dutch (Dodecad) + 3.4% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 0.8
10 96.4% Dutch (Dodecad) + 3.6% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 0.81
11 95.6% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 0.81
12 70.9% Orcadian (HGDP) + 29.1% Hungarians (Behar) @ 0.82
13 52.4% Orcadian (HGDP) + 47.6% German (Dodecad) @ 0.82
14 96.6% Dutch (Dodecad) + 3.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 0.82
15 87.3% Kent (1000Genomes) + 12.7% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.82
16 95.9% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 0.83
17 95.8% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.9
18 95.2% Dutch (Dodecad) + 4.8% Polish (Dodecad) @ 0.9
19 88.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 11.1% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.91
20 87.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 12.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.94

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Dodecad +50% Irish_Dodecad @ 0.845456


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad +25% Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad +25% Norwegian_Dodecad @ 0.257228


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 0.257228
2 Argyll_1000Genomes + Dutch_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + German_Dodecad @ 0.646507
3 Dutch_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.676794
4 Argyll_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + British_Isles_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar @ 0.681596
5 Argyll_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.702910
6 Argyll_1000Genomes + English_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.734933
7 Dutch_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.775818
8 Argyll_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Orcadian_HGDP @ 0.783163
9 Argyll_1000Genomes + German_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad @ 0.784460
10 CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Orkney_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.795621
11 English_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + Orkney_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.808878
12 Argyll_1000Genomes + English_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + Orcadian_HGDP @ 0.820505
13 Argyll_1000Genomes + German_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP @ 0.827399
14 German_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP @ 0.831116
15 German_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad @ 0.845456
16 Argyll_1000Genomes + British_Isles_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.851146
17 CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Orcadian_HGDP + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.855485
18 Argyll_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar @ 0.858791
19 Argyll_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Irish_Dodecad @ 0.869543
20 Argyll_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Kent_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 0.875456

Robert1
09-18-2017, 06:21 AM
I certainly agree Jessie, the best calculator for me have been MDLP K23b then Eurogenes K13. While I'm just 17% Irish I add to that about 16% Welsh, 24% Scot and 36% English.

I would love to see your results in MDLP K23b, I'll paste mine below.

Kit Num: T768540
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com

MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.15
2 European_Early_Farmers 30.01
3 Caucasian 18.46
4 South_Central_Asian 7.71
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.77
6 Near_East 1.60


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 CEU_ @ 2.318686
2 Welsh_ @ 2.631407
3 British_ @ 2.857364
4 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 2.949480
5 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 3.145617
6 Irish_ @ 3.597164
7 English_ @ 3.640799
8 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 3.677431
9 Orcadian_ @ 3.788457
10 North_European_ @ 3.856495
11 Frisian_ @ 4.819067
12 Belgian_ @ 5.334894
13 Icelandic_ @ 7.080559
14 Dutch_ @ 7.412737
15 Norwegian_West_ @ 7.523641
16 South_German_ @ 8.354868
17 Norwegian_East_ @ 8.534133
18 German-Volga_ @ 8.899570
19 French_ @ 9.885987
20 Dane_ @ 10.845596

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +50% Orcadian_ @ 2.047260


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +25% Orcadian_ +25% Welsh_ @ 1.848215


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++
1 Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ + Welsh_ @ 1.676657
2 CEU_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.704373
3 Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.720497
4 Frisian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.760929
5 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.779963
6 Frisian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ + Welsh_ @ 1.784505
7 British_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.791953
8 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.794230
9 CEU_ + English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.815276
10 Irish_ + Irish_ + Orcadian_ + Welsh_ @ 1.848215
11 Irish_ + Orcadian_ + Welsh_ + Welsh_ @ 1.848340
12 English_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.855492
13 English_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ + Welsh_ @ 1.859388
14 English_Kent_GBR_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.859976
15 Dutch_ + French_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.865001
16 Irish_ + Orcadian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.875414
17 CEU_ + CEU_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.876488
18 CEU_ + Irish_ + Orcadian_ + Welsh_ @ 1.876574
19 CEU_ + Frisian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Welsh_ @ 1.885402
20 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Frisian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.886562

Done.

Elapsed time 50.0082 seconds.

Jessie
09-18-2017, 08:29 AM
Sure Robert1.

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.33
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.46
3 Caucasian 20.92
4 South_Central_Asian 7.59
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.02
6 South_Indian 1.16


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish_ @ 1.526382
2 English_ @ 2.894710
3 Frisian_ @ 2.931600
4 North_European_ @ 3.564811
5 Belgian_ @ 3.806569
6 Dutch_ @ 4.065898
7 CEU_ @ 4.657842
8 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 5.149049
9 South_German_ @ 5.396676
10 British_ @ 5.460062
11 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 5.531237
12 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 5.575328
13 Welsh_ @ 5.643507
14 German-Volga_ @ 6.441647
15 Norwegian_East_ @ 6.574863
16 Orcadian_ @ 6.737623
17 Icelandic_ @ 6.847057
18 Norwegian_West_ @ 7.210520
19 North_German_ @ 7.951356
20 Dane_ @ 8.154469

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +50% Irish_ @ 1.526382


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +25% Irish_ +25% North_German_ @ 1.351905


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.160473
2 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.351905
3 Irish_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + South_German_ @ 1.390644
4 Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_European_ @ 1.434178
5 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + South_German_ @ 1.436827
6 Dutch_ + English_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.440024
7 Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Welsh_ @ 1.458818
8 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.474030
9 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Norwegian_East_ @ 1.483248
10 CEU_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.517760
11 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.526382
12 Dutch_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + South_German_ @ 1.526720
13 German-Volga_ + Icelandic_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.554614
14 Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.581927
15 Dutch_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.585048
16 Dane_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.592790
17 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_European_ @ 1.594458
18 English_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.612745
19 CEU_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.617798
20 Frisian_ + Irish_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + South_German_ @ 1.630640

Here's my brother's results as well.

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.60
3 Caucasian 21.61
4 South_Central_Asian 7.29
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.26


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish_ @ 2.261916
2 Frisian_ @ 2.505198
3 Dutch_ @ 2.778208
4 English_ @ 3.307590
5 Belgian_ @ 3.617860
6 North_European_ @ 4.158943
7 South_German_ @ 5.308599
8 CEU_ @ 5.539104
9 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 5.839112
10 German-Volga_ @ 5.857182
11 British_ @ 6.159924
12 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 6.256845
13 Norwegian_East_ @ 6.289495
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 6.353488
15 Welsh_ @ 6.669581
16 Icelandic_ @ 6.953556
17 Norwegian_West_ @ 7.155996
18 Dane_ @ 7.353782
19 North_German_ @ 7.431414
20 Orcadian_ @ 7.481358

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_ +50% Irish_ @ 0.593731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_ +25% Irish_ +25% Irish_ @ 0.593731


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 0.593731
2 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ @ 0.969406
3 Dutch_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.056763
4 Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.131301
5 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + English_ + Irish_ @ 1.215240
6 Dane_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.288896
7 Dutch_ + Frisian_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ @ 1.303067
8 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ @ 1.325116
9 Belgian_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.345949
10 CEU_ + Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ @ 1.350276
11 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Swede_Saami_ @ 1.362659
12 Dane_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.370775
13 Dutch_ + English_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ @ 1.385557
14 British_ + Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ @ 1.389883
15 Dutch_ + English_ + Irish_ + Irish_ @ 1.392081
16 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Swede_Saami_ @ 1.394454
17 Belgian_ + Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ @ 1.406531
18 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Irish_ @ 1.416055
19 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.420758
20 Dutch_ + Dutch_ + Irish_ + North_European_ @ 1.438734

cilldara
09-18-2017, 01:08 PM
Here are mine -

1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.08
2 European_Early_Farmers 28.42
3 Caucasian 20.1
4 South_Central_Asian 8.08
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.68
6 South_Indian 0.59
7 Tungus-Altaic 0.34
8 Arctic 0.26
9 North_African 0.16
10 Khoisan 0.14
11 Archaic_Human 0.11
12 Amerindian 0.03


Single Population Sharing:

1 Irish ( ) 1.65
2 English ( ) 2.79
3 North_European ( ) 3.45
4 Frisian ( ) 4.07
5 English_Cornwall_GBR ( ) 4.38
6 CEU ( ) 4.52
7 English_Kent_GBR ( ) 4.55
8 Belgian ( ) 4.78
9 Norwegian_East ( ) 4.95
10 British ( ) 5.1
11 Welsh ( ) 5.11
12 Dutch ( ) 5.77
13 Norwegian_West ( ) 6.21
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) 6.63
15 Icelandic ( ) 6.81
16 Swede ( ) 6.82
17 Dane ( ) 7.32
18 North_German ( ) 7.86
19 Orcadian ( ) 8.15
20 South_German ( ) 8.57


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.6% Irish ( ) + 17.4% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 0.91
2 86.1% Irish ( ) + 13.9% Orcadian ( ) @ 1.02
3 84.3% Irish ( ) + 15.7% Icelandic ( ) @ 1.08
4 80.4% Irish ( ) + 19.6% CEU ( ) @ 1.27
5 85.4% Irish ( ) + 14.6% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 1.29
6 92.3% CEU ( ) + 7.7% Tabassaran ( ) @ 1.29
7 92.9% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) + 7.1% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 1.3
8 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Kalash ( ) @ 1.31
9 83% Irish ( ) + 17% British ( ) @ 1.31
10 89.7% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 10.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 1.31
11 92.4% CEU ( ) + 7.6% Avar ( ) @ 1.32
12 83.3% Irish ( ) + 16.7% Welsh ( ) @ 1.33
13 92.5% CEU ( ) + 7.5% Lezgin ( ) @ 1.35
14 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Brahui ( ) @ 1.37
15 92.2% CEU ( ) + 7.8% Lak ( ) @ 1.37
16 92.2% CEU ( ) + 7.8% Dargin_Urkarah ( ) @ 1.37
17 91.2% Orcadian ( ) + 8.8% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 1.41
18 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Basque_French ( ) @ 1.42
19 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Balochi ( ) @ 1.42
20 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Hakas ( ) @ 1.42

jonathanmcg1990
09-18-2017, 03:02 PM
I ran some Irish through Dodecad K12b, and I noticed that some of them are nearly identical on that calculator to their Kent (SE England) reference population, and others are closer to Dutch. This is why I struggle with understanding why on some PCA plots, the Irish are further away from continental Germanics than the English. Shouldn't they be more northern sifted than English because they have even less "Med" type affinity than the English?

I am half Ulster Scot and half N.Ireland and my first population is Dutch but my friend who is 100% Ulster Scot Number one population is mixed German but her Caucasus is 7.5%.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Robert1
09-18-2017, 06:42 PM
Thanks, Jessie and others who posted Irish results. Since I am heavily Western UK it's interesting to compare results with people who are more localized to Ireland, to Wales and to Scotland. My MDLP K23b/Oracle results are not that different.

Sikeliot
09-18-2017, 11:19 PM
More Gedmatch.

This time I notice as you go northwest they get more Scandinavian, as you go south into Cork/Kerry/etc. they become closer to Cornish, Welsh, and other English.

This could be due to heavy Norman and Viking influence.

Tipperary/Kerry:
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.85
2 European_Early_Farmers 28.27
3 Caucasian 18.02
4 South_Central_Asian 10.18
5 Ancestral_Altaic 6.28


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 3.566159
2 Irish_ @ 4.388864
3 Orcadian_ @ 4.863629
4 CEU_ @ 5.087099
5 British_ @ 5.315814
6 English_ @ 5.396330
7 North_European_ @ 5.640260
8 Welsh_ @ 5.709649
9 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 5.755759
10 Frisian_ @ 5.941903
11 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 6.666936
12 Icelandic_ @ 6.727659
13 Dutch_ @ 7.167319
14 Belgian_ @ 7.198646
15 Norwegian_West_ @ 7.838609
16 Norwegian_East_ @ 8.538418
17 South_German_ @ 9.860841
18 German-Volga_ @ 9.907320
19 Dane_ @ 10.558948
20 Swede_ @ 11.108434

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +50% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 3.084434


Galway/Roscommon:

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 39.83
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.91
3 Caucasian 19.07
4 South_Central_Asian 8.44
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.59


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Icelandic_ @ 4.231597
2 Irish_ @ 4.260509
3 North_European_ @ 4.296129
4 Dutch_ @ 4.642406
5 English_ @ 4.803543
6 Norwegian_East_ @ 4.873634
7 Frisian_ @ 4.932249
8 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 4.957014
9 Norwegian_West_ @ 5.205562
10 CEU_ @ 5.487115
11 Belgian_ @ 5.898659
12 British_ @ 6.144686
13 Orcadian_ @ 6.234140
14 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 6.880260
15 Dane_ @ 6.935303
16 Welsh_ @ 6.997309
17 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 7.227569
18 North_German_ @ 7.297298
19 Swede_ @ 7.401409
20 South_German_ @ 7.569025

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Icelandic_ +50% Irish_ @ 2.115952


Galway:
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 39.73
2 European_Early_Farmers 28.48
3 Caucasian 16.64
4 South_Central_Asian 8.75
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.54


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 3.135665
2 Icelandic_ @ 3.704751
3 Orcadian_ @ 4.271419
4 North_European_ @ 4.801546
5 CEU_ @ 4.888788
6 Norwegian_West_ @ 5.108569
7 British_ @ 5.391361
8 Irish_ @ 5.521299
9 English_ @ 5.781691
10 Norwegian_East_ @ 6.074732
11 Welsh_ @ 6.248239
12 Frisian_ @ 6.655658
13 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 6.886522
14 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 6.903872
15 Dutch_ @ 7.283130
16 Belgian_ @ 7.378539
17 Dane_ @ 8.882932
18 Swede_ @ 8.934673
19 North_German_ @ 9.570296
20 South_German_ @ 9.720284

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Icelandic_ +50% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 2.042409


Galway/Westmeath:

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.92
2 European_Early_Farmers 28.49
3 Caucasian 17.82
4 South_Central_Asian 8.24
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.35


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 2.359315
2 CEU_ @ 3.438623
3 North_European_ @ 3.496693
4 Irish_ @ 3.649217
5 Orcadian_ @ 3.695500
6 English_ @ 3.938995
7 British_ @ 4.020002
8 Welsh_ @ 4.712218
9 Icelandic_ @ 4.896960
10 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 5.003191
11 Frisian_ @ 5.012236
12 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 5.305037
13 Belgian_ @ 5.760990
14 Norwegian_West_ @ 5.813912
15 Dutch_ @ 6.217022
16 Norwegian_East_ @ 6.530151
17 South_German_ @ 8.584291
18 Dane_ @ 9.018764
19 Swede_ @ 9.402824
20 German-Volga_ @ 9.422608

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +50% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.743716


Kerry:
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.64
2 European_Early_Farmers 29.10
3 Caucasian 19.19
4 Ancestral_Altaic 7.08
5 South_Central_Asian 6.68


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 CEU_ @ 2.999744
2 British_ @ 3.033331
3 English_ @ 3.084379
4 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 3.306241
5 Irish_ @ 3.306400
6 North_European_ @ 3.569464
7 Frisian_ @ 3.722048
8 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 3.746674
9 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 3.761323
10 Welsh_ @ 4.014057
11 Orcadian_ @ 4.276734
12 Belgian_ @ 4.279374
13 Dutch_ @ 6.128445
14 Icelandic_ @ 6.535652
15 Norwegian_West_ @ 6.576353
16 Norwegian_East_ @ 7.572744
17 German-Volga_ @ 8.091587
18 South_German_ @ 8.148739
19 Dane_ @ 9.610318
20 Swede_ @ 10.057218

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Frisian_ +50% Orcadian_ @ 1.841607



Kerry:
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.94
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.90
3 Caucasian 22.07
4 Ancestral_Altaic 6.64
5 South_Central_Asian 6.51


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Frisian_ @ 2.207212
2 Irish_ @ 3.047897
3 Belgian_ @ 3.336756
4 Dutch_ @ 3.550300
5 English_ @ 3.664475
6 North_European_ @ 4.780025
7 German-Volga_ @ 5.566567
8 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 5.634717
9 CEU_ @ 5.769645
10 South_German_ @ 5.904051
11 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 5.958107
12 British_ @ 6.098937
13 Welsh_ @ 6.770425
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 6.863578
15 Norwegian_East_ @ 7.235011
16 Norwegian_West_ @ 7.634893
17 Orcadian_ @ 7.746984
18 Icelandic_ @ 7.784250
19 Dane_ @ 8.076656
20 North_German_ @ 8.425238

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_ +50% Frisian_ @ 2.027641


Mayo/Sligo/Cork:
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.72
2 European_Early_Farmers 29.88
3 Caucasian 17.62
4 South_Central_Asian 7.51
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.78
6 North_African 1.84


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 2.074528
2 CEU_ @ 2.380905
3 Orcadian_ @ 2.724245
4 British_ @ 2.752125
5 Welsh_ @ 3.151974
6 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 3.401007
7 North_European_ @ 3.527698
8 English_ @ 3.777671
9 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 4.193095
10 Irish_ @ 4.211360
11 Frisian_ @ 5.378626
12 Belgian_ @ 5.721579
13 Icelandic_ @ 6.221424
14 Norwegian_West_ @ 6.740640
15 Dutch_ @ 7.426305
16 Norwegian_East_ @ 7.871647
17 South_German_ @ 9.137053
18 German-Volga_ @ 9.522329
19 Dane_ @ 10.452072
20 French_ @ 10.537869

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_ +50% Orcadian_ @ 1.653237

kevinduffy
09-19-2017, 02:12 AM
Has anyone tried the following calculator? I find it works best at identifying my Irish ancestry.

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:

puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit T656173

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 50.36
2 SW_Europe 35.33
3 West_Asia 9.28
4 Siberia 1.25
5 South_Asia 1.12
6 SW_Asia 0.76
7 SE_Asia 0.55
8 Americas 0.54
9 West_Africa 0.34
10 East_Africa 0.25
11 South_Africa 0.19
12 Oceania 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 2.41
2 Orcadian 2.58
3 Scottish 2.81
4 Utahn_European 3.06
5 English 3.63
6 German_North 4.52
7 Norwegian 5.45
8 German_South 5.92
9 Belgian 6.31
10 Hungarian 6.72
11 Slovak 6.92
12 Slovene 6.97
13 Swedish 7.6
14 Ukrainian 7.78
15 Croatian 8.94
16 French 10.06
17 Moldavian 10.96
18 Bosnian 11.38
19 Belarusian 11.75
20 Serbian 14.13

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Selkup @ 1.96
2 98.4% Irish + 1.6% Dolgan @ 1.99
3 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Nganasan @ 1.99
4 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Koryak @ 2
5 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Yakut @ 2.03
6 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Chukchi @ 2.03
7 95.7% Irish + 4.3% Chuvash @ 2.04
8 94.7% Orcadian + 5.3% Chuvash @ 2.05
9 96.1% Irish + 3.9% Aluet @ 2.06
10 95.2% Orcadian + 4.8% Aluet @ 2.09
11 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Eskimo @ 2.1
12 95.3% Irish + 4.7% Tatar @ 2.1
13 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Tuvinian @ 2.1
14 91.5% Orcadian + 8.5% Mordovian @ 2.11
15 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Selkup @ 2.12
16 98.3% Irish + 1.7% Altaian @ 2.13
17 73.5% Scottish + 26.5% Norwegian @ 2.16
18 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Oroqen @ 2.16
19 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Mongolian @ 2.16
20 94.5% Orcadian + 5.5% Tatar @ 2.18

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 2.535339
2 Orcadian @ 2.734495
3 Scottish @ 3.007329
4 Utahn_European @ 3.218606
5 English @ 3.870425
6 German_North @ 4.827681
7 Norwegian @ 5.920238
8 German_South @ 6.404153
9 Belgian @ 6.755569
10 Hungarian @ 7.217808
11 Slovak @ 7.403396
12 Slovene @ 7.461728
13 Swedish @ 8.275467
14 Ukrainian @ 8.364847
15 Croatian @ 9.658095
16 French @ 10.857087
17 Moldavian @ 11.846075
18 Bosnian @ 12.317388
19 Belarusian @ 12.711969
20 Serbian @ 15.370296

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_South +50% Norwegian @ 2.425763


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish +25% Scottish +25% Swedish @ 2.385185


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.284668
2 Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.288307
3 Irish + Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.310751
4 English + Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.312157
5 Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.312429
6 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.321760
7 English + Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.342153
8 Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.354077
9 English + Irish + Norwegian + Scottish @ 2.354367
10 Scottish + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.385185
11 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.397692
12 Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.397861
13 English + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.401579
14 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Scottish @ 2.410623
15 English + Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.410973
16 English + Norwegian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.424067
17 German_South + German_South + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.425763
18 English + Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.429281
19 Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.435424
20 German_South + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.435863

Jessie
09-19-2017, 02:25 AM
Thanks Kevin. Is that a new one? I don't think I've used it before.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 49.5
2 SW_Europe 35.18
3 West_Asia 9.36
4 Americas 1.73
5 SW_Asia 1.36
6 Siberia 1.36
7 South_Asia 0.7
8 Oceania 0.45
9 East_Africa 0.37

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 2.61
2 Orcadian 2.67
3 Scottish 2.84
4 Utahn_European 3.11
5 English 3.31
6 German_North 4.86
7 German_South 5.38
8 Belgian 5.88
9 Hungarian 6.2
10 Norwegian 6.22
11 Slovene 6.45
12 Slovak 6.46
13 Ukrainian 8.02
14 Croatian 8.27
15 Swedish 8.37
16 French 9.5
17 Moldavian 10.4
18 Bosnian 10.68
19 Belarusian 12.15
20 Serbian 13.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Eskimo @ 1.35
2 92.9% Orcadian + 7.1% Aluet @ 1.43
3 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Chukchi @ 1.53
4 97.5% Orcadian + 2.5% Eskimo @ 1.54
5 92.7% Scottish + 7.3% Aluet @ 1.64
6 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Koryak @ 1.66
7 97.7% Orcadian + 2.3% Chukchi @ 1.69
8 93.7% Irish + 6.3% Aluet @ 1.69
9 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Koryak @ 1.79
10 97% Orcadian + 3% Selkup @ 1.8
11 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Selkup @ 1.81
12 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Pima @ 1.86
13 97.8% Irish + 2.2% Dolgan @ 1.86
14 96.9% Irish + 3.1% Mexican @ 1.87
15 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Mayan @ 1.88
16 98.3% Irish + 1.7% Nganasan @ 1.89
17 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Colombian @ 1.89
18 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Karitiana @ 1.89
19 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Surui @ 1.89
20 98% Irish + 2% Yakut @ 1.89

Jessie
09-19-2017, 02:43 AM
Thanks Kevin. Is that a new one? I don't think I've used it before.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 49.5
2 SW_Europe 35.18
3 West_Asia 9.36
4 Americas 1.73
5 SW_Asia 1.36
6 Siberia 1.36
7 South_Asia 0.7
8 Oceania 0.45
9 East_Africa 0.37

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 2.61
2 Orcadian 2.67
3 Scottish 2.84
4 Utahn_European 3.11
5 English 3.31
6 German_North 4.86
7 German_South 5.38
8 Belgian 5.88
9 Hungarian 6.2
10 Norwegian 6.22
11 Slovene 6.45
12 Slovak 6.46
13 Ukrainian 8.02
14 Croatian 8.27
15 Swedish 8.37
16 French 9.5
17 Moldavian 10.4
18 Bosnian 10.68
19 Belarusian 12.15
20 Serbian 13.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Eskimo @ 1.35
2 92.9% Orcadian + 7.1% Aluet @ 1.43
3 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Chukchi @ 1.53
4 97.5% Orcadian + 2.5% Eskimo @ 1.54
5 92.7% Scottish + 7.3% Aluet @ 1.64
6 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Koryak @ 1.66
7 97.7% Orcadian + 2.3% Chukchi @ 1.69
8 93.7% Irish + 6.3% Aluet @ 1.69
9 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Koryak @ 1.79
10 97% Orcadian + 3% Selkup @ 1.8
11 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Selkup @ 1.81
12 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Pima @ 1.86
13 97.8% Irish + 2.2% Dolgan @ 1.86
14 96.9% Irish + 3.1% Mexican @ 1.87
15 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Mayan @ 1.88
16 98.3% Irish + 1.7% Nganasan @ 1.89
17 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Colombian @ 1.89
18 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Karitiana @ 1.89
19 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Surui @ 1.89
20 98% Irish + 2% Yakut @ 1.89

Just adding my daughter's results on this calc. On every calculator she comes out English with a more southern pull. Her father's ancestry is from Wexford/Dublin with a Norman name. I just find it interesting that she consistenly gets English as her no 1 pop. Maybe reading too much into these calculators. I've ordered LivingDNA for her so it will be interesting to see if her regions differ from me and my brother.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 47.71
2 SW_Europe 38.06
3 West_Asia 8.34
4 SE_Asia 1.75
5 Americas 1.05
6 Siberia 1.03
7 SW_Asia 0.82
8 South_Asia 0.55
9 East_Africa 0.32
10 South_Africa 0.26
11 Oceania 0.07
12 NE_Asia 0.04

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 English 3.79
2 Orcadian 3.97
3 Scottish 4.05
4 Irish 4.41
5 German_South 4.65
6 Utahn_European 4.82
7 Belgian 4.85
8 Hungarian 7.6
9 French 7.61
10 German_North 7.81
11 Slovene 8.36
12 Norwegian 8.82
13 Croatian 8.83
14 Slovak 9.08
15 Swedish 10.88
16 Ukrainian 11.23
17 Bosnian 11.44
18 Moldavian 11.91
19 Serbian 13.34
20 Belarusian 15.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.2% Orcadian + 11.8% French_Basque @ 3.03
2 85.7% Irish + 14.3% French_Basque @ 3.05
3 88% Scottish + 12% French_Basque @ 3.09
4 91.2% English + 8.8% French_Basque @ 3.31
5 98.1% Orcadian + 1.9% Igorot @ 3.41
6 97.9% Orcadian + 2.1% Murut @ 3.45
7 97.9% Orcadian + 2.1% Dusun @ 3.45
8 97.7% Orcadian + 2.3% Visayan @ 3.46
9 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Filipino @ 3.48
10 94% Orcadian + 6% Puerto_Rican @ 3.48
11 97.9% Orcadian + 2.1% Luzon @ 3.48
12 89.4% Orcadian + 10.6% Spaniard @ 3.49
13 85.2% Utahn_European + 14.8% French_Basque @ 3.5
14 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Malayan @ 3.51
15 95.5% Orcadian + 4.5% Colombian @ 3.54
16 73.3% German_North + 26.7% French_Basque @ 3.56
17 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Cambodian @ 3.56
18 98.2% Scottish + 1.8% Igorot @ 3.57
19 98% Scottish + 2% Murut @ 3.61
20 80.2% Orcadian + 19.8% French @ 3.61

Sikeliot
09-19-2017, 03:02 AM
Just adding my daughter's results on this calc. On every calculator she comes out English with a more southern pull. Her father's ancestry is from Wexford/Dublin with a Norman name. I just find it interesting that she consistenly gets English as her no 1 pop.

What I notice is English are a southern-shifted population compared to the Irish even with their higher Germanic ancestry.... so much for Irish being like Spaniards (even though Spaniards are closer to Irish than say, Sicilians or Cretans are).

I notice western Irish seem slightly north shifted.

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 04:42 AM
Has anyone tried the following calculator? I find it works best at identifying my Irish ancestry.

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:

puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit T656173

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 50.36
2 SW_Europe 35.33
3 West_Asia 9.28
4 Siberia 1.25
5 South_Asia 1.12
6 SW_Asia 0.76
7 SE_Asia 0.55
8 Americas 0.54
9 West_Africa 0.34
10 East_Africa 0.25
11 South_Africa 0.19
12 Oceania 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 2.41
2 Orcadian 2.58
3 Scottish 2.81
4 Utahn_European 3.06
5 English 3.63
6 German_North 4.52
7 Norwegian 5.45
8 German_South 5.92
9 Belgian 6.31
10 Hungarian 6.72
11 Slovak 6.92
12 Slovene 6.97
13 Swedish 7.6
14 Ukrainian 7.78
15 Croatian 8.94
16 French 10.06
17 Moldavian 10.96
18 Bosnian 11.38
19 Belarusian 11.75
20 Serbian 14.13

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Selkup @ 1.96
2 98.4% Irish + 1.6% Dolgan @ 1.99
3 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Nganasan @ 1.99
4 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Koryak @ 2
5 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Yakut @ 2.03
6 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Chukchi @ 2.03
7 95.7% Irish + 4.3% Chuvash @ 2.04
8 94.7% Orcadian + 5.3% Chuvash @ 2.05
9 96.1% Irish + 3.9% Aluet @ 2.06
10 95.2% Orcadian + 4.8% Aluet @ 2.09
11 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Eskimo @ 2.1
12 95.3% Irish + 4.7% Tatar @ 2.1
13 98.5% Irish + 1.5% Tuvinian @ 2.1
14 91.5% Orcadian + 8.5% Mordovian @ 2.11
15 97.8% Orcadian + 2.2% Selkup @ 2.12
16 98.3% Irish + 1.7% Altaian @ 2.13
17 73.5% Scottish + 26.5% Norwegian @ 2.16
18 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Oroqen @ 2.16
19 98.6% Irish + 1.4% Mongolian @ 2.16
20 94.5% Orcadian + 5.5% Tatar @ 2.18

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 2.535339
2 Orcadian @ 2.734495
3 Scottish @ 3.007329
4 Utahn_European @ 3.218606
5 English @ 3.870425
6 German_North @ 4.827681
7 Norwegian @ 5.920238
8 German_South @ 6.404153
9 Belgian @ 6.755569
10 Hungarian @ 7.217808
11 Slovak @ 7.403396
12 Slovene @ 7.461728
13 Swedish @ 8.275467
14 Ukrainian @ 8.364847
15 Croatian @ 9.658095
16 French @ 10.857087
17 Moldavian @ 11.846075
18 Bosnian @ 12.317388
19 Belarusian @ 12.711969
20 Serbian @ 15.370296

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_South +50% Norwegian @ 2.425763


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish +25% Scottish +25% Swedish @ 2.385185


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.284668
2 Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.288307
3 Irish + Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.310751
4 English + Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.312157
5 Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.312429
6 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.321760
7 English + Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.342153
8 Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.354077
9 English + Irish + Norwegian + Scottish @ 2.354367
10 Scottish + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.385185
11 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.397692
12 Norwegian + Orcadian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.397861
13 English + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.401579
14 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Scottish @ 2.410623
15 English + Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.410973
16 English + Norwegian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 2.424067
17 German_South + German_South + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.425763
18 English + Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.429281
19 Irish + Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.435424
20 German_South + Scottish + Scottish + Swedish @ 2.435863

I dunno man I am American of mixed Ancestry but AncestryDNA insists my single genetic community is 'Ulster Irish' with a 60% probability but I have been struggling to figure out if my admixture is closer to Irish or Scottish with DNA tools to no avail :

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit A703943

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 47.56
2 SW_Europe 34.23
3 West_Asia 9.74
4 South_Asia 1.9
5 Siberia 1.35
6 Oceania 1.32
7 Americas 1.21
8 East_Africa 1.16
9 South_Africa 0.7
10 West_Africa 0.51
11 SW_Asia 0.16
12 SE_Asia 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Scottish 4.53
2 Orcadian 4.79
3 Irish 4.84
4 English 4.89
5 Utahn_European 5.21
6 German_South 5.96
7 German_North 6.48
8 Hungarian 6.66
9 Slovene 6.87
10 Belgian 6.89
11 Slovak 7.01
12 Norwegian 8.02
13 Croatian 8.39
14 Ukrainian 9.07
15 Moldavian 9.77
16 French 9.94
17 Swedish 10.12
18 Bosnian 10.47
19 Serbian 12.74
20 Belarusian 13.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.4% Scottish + 3.6% Eskimo @ 3.34
2 96.7% Scottish + 3.3% Chukchi @ 3.41
3 96.4% Scottish + 3.6% Hadza @ 3.42
4 96.4% Scottish + 3.6% Mawasi @ 3.44
5 96.6% Scottish + 3.4% Paniya @ 3.46
6 96.7% Scottish + 3.3% Koryak @ 3.48
7 91% Scottish + 9% Aluet @ 3.5
8 95.7% Scottish + 4.3% Selkup @ 3.5
9 96.8% Scottish + 3.2% Bulala @ 3.53
10 88.7% Scottish + 11.3% Tatar @ 3.55
11 96.3% Orcadian + 3.7% Eskimo @ 3.55
12 96.3% Scottish + 3.7% Tuvinian @ 3.56
13 96.2% Irish + 3.8% Eskimo @ 3.56
14 97% Scottish + 3% Anuak @ 3.56
15 96.4% Scottish + 3.6% Gond @ 3.57
16 96.7% Scottish + 3.3% Dolgan @ 3.57
17 97.1% Scottish + 2.9% Dinka @ 3.57
18 97% Scottish + 3% Sudanese_South @ 3.57
19 96.1% Orcadian + 3.9% Mawasi @ 3.58
20 96% Irish + 4% Mawasi

puntDNAL K13 Global 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 47.56
2 SW_Europe 34.23
3 West_Asia 9.74
4 South_Asia 1.90
5 Siberia 1.35
6 Oceania 1.32
7 Americas 1.21
8 East_Africa 1.16


Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish @ 4.693228
2 Orcadian @ 4.977004
3 Irish @ 5.043087
4 English @ 5.050253
5 Utahn_European @ 5.464925
6 German_South @ 6.250607
7 German_North @ 6.859832
8 Hungarian @ 6.967868
9 Slovene @ 7.195116
10 Belgian @ 7.203406
11 Slovak @ 7.396747
12 Norwegian @ 8.647587
13 Croatian @ 8.892397
14 Ukrainian @ 9.693385
15 Moldavian @ 10.405290
16 French @ 10.564201
17 Swedish @ 10.956647
18 Bosnian @ 11.188182
19 Serbian @ 13.733201
20 Belarusian @ 14.472213

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish +50% Scottish @ 4.693228


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_South +25% German_South +25% Mordovian @ 4.482681


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Tatar @ 4.079363
2 French_Basque + Norwegian + Swedish + Tatar @ 4.337946
3 French_Basque + German_North + Norwegian + Tatar @ 4.439004
4 French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian + Tatar @ 4.456645
5 French_Basque + Scottish + Swedish + Tatar @ 4.473749
6 French_Basque + Norwegian + Scottish + Tatar @ 4.476756
7 German_South + German_South + German_South + Mordovian @ 4.482681
8 French_Basque + Irish + Swedish + Tatar @ 4.505942
9 French_Basque + Moldavian + Mordovian + Norwegian @ 4.510095
10 French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian + Tatar @ 4.521741
11 French_Basque + Orcadian + Swedish + Tatar @ 4.549778
12 French_Basque + Norwegian + Tatar + Ukrainian @ 4.579252
13 French_Basque + Norwegian + Tatar + Utahn_European @ 4.586107
14 French_Basque + German_North + Swedish + Tatar @ 4.593035
15 French + German_South + Mordovian + Scottish @ 4.625344
16 Italian_Bergamo + Mordovian + Norwegian + Scottish @ 4.645299
17 German_South + German_South + Mordovian + Scottish @ 4.649167
18 French_Basque + Mordovian + Scottish + Slovak @ 4.651647
19 French_Basque + Polish + Scottish + Tatar @ 4.651811
20 Scottish + Scottish + Scottish + Slovak @ 4.654730

Done.

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 04:45 AM
What I notice is English are a southern-shifted population compared to the Irish even with their higher Germanic ancestry.... so much for Irish being like Spaniards (even though Spaniards are closer to Irish than say, Sicilians or Cretans are).

I notice western Irish seem slightly north shifted.

That is because English and British people have what is known in AncestryDNA parlance as 'Western European' admixture you can even find small amounts of Southern European like Greek like in about 2% in a lot of English. As far as I am concerned I am American but I would be more of a pure 'British' person than an English person via AncestryDNA because I am 52% Irish (Celtic), 37% British ( Anglo-Saxon) and 6% Scandinavian with the rest at >1% statistical noise with no 'Western European' category except one at >1% but AncestryDNA has my genetic community as 'Ulster Irish' rather than some kind of British population.

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 05:12 AM
Here is my my MDLP k23b :

MDLP K23b Oracle results:
MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit A703943

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 38.23
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.48
3 Caucasian 20.66
4 South_Central_Asian 6.96
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.47
6 Australoid 0.89
7 Arctic 0.88
8 Khoisan 0.56
9 Archaic_African 0.51
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.16
11 East_Siberian 0.12
12 Near_East 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish ( ) 2.16
2 English ( ) 2.99
3 Frisian ( ) 3.51
4 North_European ( ) 3.91
5 Belgian ( ) 3.95
6 Dutch ( ) 4.62
7 Norwegian_East ( ) 4.7
8 English_Kent_GBR ( ) 5.22
9 English_Cornwall_GBR ( ) 5.73
10 CEU ( ) 5.77
11 Swede ( ) 5.89
12 Dane ( ) 6.18
13 North_German ( ) 6.19
14 Welsh ( ) 6.45
15 British ( ) 6.47
16 Norwegian_West ( ) 6.88
17 South_German ( ) 6.98
18 Icelandic ( ) 7.75
19 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) 8.16
20 German-Volga ( ) 8.29

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98.1% Irish ( ) + 1.9% West_Greenland ( ) @ 1.81
2 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Eskimo_Sireniki ( ) @ 1.81
3 98.7% Irish ( ) + 1.3% Eskimo_Chaplin ( ) @ 1.82
4 98.7% Irish ( ) + 1.3% Eskimo_Naukan ( ) @ 1.82
5 96.9% Irish ( ) + 3.1% Aleut ( ) @ 1.83
6 97.6% Irish ( ) + 2.4% Tlingit ( ) @ 1.85
7 98.4% Irish ( ) + 1.6% Alorese ( ) @ 1.85
8 84.2% Irish ( ) + 15.8% North_German ( ) @ 1.86
9 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Haiom ( ) @ 1.86
10 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% !Kung ( ) @ 1.86
11 83.6% Irish ( ) + 16.4% Swede ( ) @ 1.86
12 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Nama ( ) @ 1.87
13 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Chukchi ( ) @ 1.87
14 98.6% Irish ( ) + 1.4% Gana ( ) @ 1.87
15 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Shua ( ) @ 1.87
16 98.5% Irish ( ) + 1.5% Tshwa ( ) @ 1.87
17 99% Irish ( ) + 1% Papuan ( ) @ 1.87
18 99% Irish ( ) + 1% Kosipe ( ) @ 1.88
19 99% Irish ( ) + 1% Koinanbe ( ) @ 1.88
20 98.7% Irish ( ) + 1.3% Australian ( ) @ 1.88

Gedmatch.Com
MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 38.23
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.48
3 Caucasian 20.67
4 South_Central_Asian 6.96
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.47


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish_ @ 2.863693
2 Frisian_ @ 3.202352
3 North_European_ @ 3.408924
4 English_ @ 3.440974
5 Belgian_ @ 3.951175
6 Dutch_ @ 4.173896
7 CEU_ @ 4.817725
8 English_Kent_GBR_ @ 5.346879
9 South_German_ @ 5.379081
10 British_ @ 5.589827
11 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 5.751863
12 Norwegian_East_ @ 5.858009
13 Welsh_ @ 6.032094
14 English_Cornwall_GBR_ @ 6.126009
15 Icelandic_ @ 6.310972
16 Norwegian_West_ @ 6.457191
17 Orcadian_ @ 6.870041
18 German-Volga_ @ 7.257523
19 North_German_ @ 7.260452
20 Dane_ @ 7.560017

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ +50% South_German_ @ 2.404501


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_ +25% Irish_ +25% North_German_ @ 1.908688


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 CEU_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.867592
2 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.908688
3 British_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.913817
4 Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Welsh_ @ 1.916089
5 Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.928502
6 Frisian_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ @ 1.943996
7 Irish_ + Irish_ + North_European_ + North_German_ @ 1.950007
8 Frisian_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Welsh_ @ 1.964724
9 Icelandic_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + South_German_ @ 1.975746
10 CEU_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.976505
11 English_Kent_GBR_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 1.992123
12 English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 2.044844
13 British_ + Frisian_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 2.054848
14 Frisian_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 2.060970
15 English_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ @ 2.061353
16 Irish_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Orcadian_ @ 2.065250
17 Frisian_ + Icelandic_ + Irish_ + South_German_ @ 2.086371
18 Irish_ + Irish_ + Norwegian_West_ + South_German_ @ 2.090078
19 Irish_ + Irish_ + Irish_ + Norwegian_East_ @ 2.103075
20 Dutch_ + Irish_ + North_German_ + Welsh_ @ 2.103286

sktibo
09-19-2017, 05:44 AM
Joining in the GEDmatch calc dogpile... (we've got to do something while we wait for the Irish DNA Atlas results right?)

I'm really impressed by puntdnal k13 global as Kevin suggested... wow, how did I miss this one?!

1 NE_Europe 46.33
2 SW_Europe 37.87
3 West_Asia 7.44
4 Americas 1.97
5 South_Asia 1.77
6 Siberia 1.59
7 SE_Asia 1.13

Using 1 population approximation:
1 English @ 5.337352
2 German_South @ 5.727699
3 Belgian @ 5.760499
4 Orcadian @ 5.793632
5 Scottish @ 5.892945
6 Irish @ 6.253387
7 Utahn_European @ 6.392447
8 French @ 8.189184
9 Hungarian @ 8.908759
10 Slovene @ 9.631710

Irish is not my closest match! And English is!? why.. that actually makes sense given my known ancestry.
The 4 population estimate is pretty darn good too in my case: 1 French_Basque + German_South + Mordovian + Scottish @ 3.993761

Not very impressed with the mixed mode... however it's certainly not the worst.
1 51.7% French_Basque + 48.3% Mordovian @ 4.21
2 91.3% Orcadian + 8.7% Colombian @ 4.23
3 89.3% Orcadian + 10.7% Puerto_Rican @ 4.25
4 85% Orcadian + 15% French_Basque @ 4.39
5 93.4% English + 6.6% Colombian @ 4.4

Either way, I think this one is now among my new top picks along with Eurogenes k13.

I'm not impressed with MDLP k23b (although I don't think it's that bad)

Dodecad k12b is one of the worst oracles of all IMO

kevinduffy
09-19-2017, 12:09 PM
Thanks Kevin. Is that a new one? I don't think I've used it before.

I believe it was added to Gedmatch earlier this year.

kevinduffy
09-19-2017, 12:11 PM
I dunno man I am American of mixed Ancestry but AncestryDNA insists my single genetic community is 'Ulster Irish' with a 60% probability but I have been struggling to figure out if my admixture is closer to Irish or Scottish with DNA tools to no avail

Does AncestryDNA define what they mean by "Ulster Irish"? Does it refer to Catholics, Protestants or a mixture of the two?

spruithean
09-19-2017, 12:15 PM
Does AncestryDNA define what they mean by "Ulster Irish"? Does it refer to Catholics, Protestants or a mixture of the two?

I feel like this would be important. EDIT: Apparently AncestryDNA has "Ulster Irish" and "Scots in Central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland" as separate genetic communities.

So far most gedmatch calculators struggle to come close to my actual known ancestry, K13 Global basically thinks I'm from Utah?

jonathanmcg1990
09-19-2017, 12:29 PM
puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit A704393

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 49.95
2 SW_Europe 36.63
3 West_Asia 8.42
4 Americas 1.59
5 West_Africa 1.42
6 South_Asia 0.6
7 SW_Asia 0.56
8 Oceania 0.42
9 Siberia 0.36
10 NE_Asia 0.03
11 SE_Asia 0.02

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Orcadian 3.06
2 Irish 3.16
3 Scottish 3.39
4 Utahn_European 3.47
5 English 3.96
6 German_South 5.85
7 German_North 6.08
8 Belgian 6.09
9 Norwegian 6.48
10 Hungarian 7.62
11 Slovene 8.11
12 Slovak 8.25
13 Swedish 8.61
14 Ukrainian 9.41
15 Croatian 9.5
16 French 9.55
17 Moldavian 12.06
18 Bosnian 12.06
19 Belarusian 13.05
20 Serbian 14.57

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98.5% Orcadian + 1.5% African_American @ 2.72
2 98.8% Orcadian + 1.2% Yoruba @ 2.74
3 97.4% Orcadian + 2.6% Dominican @ 2.74
4 98.8% Orcadian + 1.2% Esan @ 2.74
5 97% Irish + 3% Dominican @ 2.75
6 98.8% Orcadian + 1.2% Igbo @ 2.75
7 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Mende @ 2.75
8 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Hausa @ 2.75
9 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Bantu_SW @ 2.76
10 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Mandinka @ 2.77
11 98.8% Orcadian + 1.2% Gambian @ 2.78
12 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Colombian @ 2.79
13 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Kaba @ 2.79
14 98.4% Irish + 1.6% African_American @ 2.8
15 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Bantu_NE @ 2.8
16 96.9% Orcadian + 3.1% Colombian @ 2.81
17 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Bantu_SE @ 2.81
18 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Yoruba @ 2.82
19 98.7% Orcadian + 1.3% Luo @ 2.82
20 98.7% Irish + 1.3% Esan @ 2.82

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 49.95
2 SW_Europe 36.63
3 West_Asia 8.42
4 Americas 1.59
5 West_Africa 1.42


Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 3.125343
2 Irish @ 3.235798
3 Scottish @ 3.528272
4 Utahn_European @ 3.579345
5 English @ 4.121096
6 German_South @ 6.255677
7 Belgian @ 6.412538
8 German_North @ 6.424294
9 Norwegian @ 6.966275
10 Hungarian @ 8.118060
11 Slovene @ 8.621448
12 Slovak @ 8.794849
13 Swedish @ 9.276971
14 Ukrainian @ 10.055801
15 Croatian @ 10.200478
16 French @ 10.231575
17 Moldavian @ 12.975060
18 Bosnian @ 13.000932
19 Belarusian @ 14.066704
20 Serbian @ 15.801462

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% Orcadian @ 3.125343


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +25% Orcadian +25% Utahn_European @ 3.092379


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
1 French_Basque + Mordovian + Norwegian + Scottish @ 3.019928
2 Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Utahn_European @ 3.092379
3 Orcadian + Orcadian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 3.114086
4 Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Utahn_European @ 3.124613
5 Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.125343
6 Estonian + French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.128470
7 Irish + Orcadian + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 3.131978
8 Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.136099
9 Orcadian + Scottish + Utahn_European + Utahn_European @ 3.138388
10 French_Basque + Mordovian + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 3.143709
11 Scottish + Scottish + Utahn_European + Utahn_European @ 3.144908
12 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Ukrainian @ 3.146652
13 Belarusian + French_Basque + Norwegian + Scottish @ 3.155211
14 Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 3.160459
15 Irish + Irish + Orcadian + Utahn_European @ 3.161687
16 Irish + Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.162952
17 Irish + Irish + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 3.168743
18 Orcadian + Orcadian + Utahn_European + Utahn_European @ 3.170709
19 French_Basque + Irish + Mordovian + Norwegian @ 3.170720
20 Irish + Scottish + Scottish + Utahn_European @ 3.178090

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 01:34 PM
I feel like this would be important. EDIT: Apparently AncestryDNA has "Ulster Irish" and "Scots in Central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland" as separate genetic communities.

So far most gedmatch calculators struggle to come close to my actual known ancestry, K13 Global basically thinks I'm from Utah?

If I am not mistaken generic Mormon Utah white would be like the American version of the English ethnicity.

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 01:36 PM
Does AncestryDNA define what they mean by "Ulster Irish"? Does it refer to Catholics, Protestants or a mixture of the two?

This :


I feel like this would be important. EDIT: Apparently AncestryDNA has "Ulster Irish" and "Scots in Central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland" as separate genetic communities.

But keep in mind Genetic Communities is still in Beta version mode and it says it with a 60% probability,for me, not 90% or whatnot.

spruithean
09-19-2017, 02:29 PM
If I am not mistaken generic Mormon Utah white would be like the American version of the English ethnicity.

I imagine it may be just a generic term for a community of Northern European mix in the US?

EDIT: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005472

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649532/


The CEU are better described as being of Western European ancestry than of Northern European ancestry as often reported

Dubhthach
09-19-2017, 04:03 PM
My auld fella got 'Ulster Irish' with a 60% probability. Of course in his case his father (my grandfather) was from Belfast (though his grandmother was 'Liverpool Irish' -- with fair number of Ulster surnames in her line)

Teutorigos
09-19-2017, 06:51 PM
I imagine it may be just a generic term for a community of Northern European mix in the US?

EDIT: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005472

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649532/

What ? CEU stands for Central European, I thought, and Utah white is denoted by utahn_... on GEDmatch :

https://www.gedmatch.com/ap_pops2.php?pop=utah

https://www.gedmatch.com/ap_pops2.php?pop=ceu

DillonResearcher
09-19-2017, 06:56 PM
On the Genetic Genealogy Ireland (GGI) Facebook page Maurice Gleeson has posted some information about the Irish DNA Atlas talk at this years GGI.

"GGI2017 - Ed Gilbert presents the final results of the Irish DNA Atlas project - a 5-year mission to find out if different genetic populations can be delineated within Ireland. Are there several different Celtic signatures? Can we identify Viking DNA? Is there a genetic remnant from English planter stock? Is there a Norman genetic footprint? These and other questions will be answered on Sun 22nd Oct, RDS Dublin. What do you think we will find?"

So the good news it that it sounds like the final results will be told to those attending, the bad (but somewhat understandable) news is that the talk will not be recorded and put on Youtube since the results will not be published until some time next year (according to a comment by Maurice Gleeson). So it sounds like a bit more waiting but at least it is an update and hopefully someone on here might be going an willing to briefly summarise the talk?

spruithean
09-19-2017, 07:13 PM
What ? CEU stands for Central European, I thought, and Utah white is denoted by utahn_... on GEDmatch :

https://www.gedmatch.com/ap_pops2.php?pop=utah

https://www.gedmatch.com/ap_pops2.php?pop=ceu

Whatever the case "Utahn" is probably just "Western/North-Western European mixed".

By the looks of it CEU and Utahn-White/Euro are referring to the same thing, just depends on the calculator.

kostoffj
09-19-2017, 07:17 PM
On the Genetic Genealogy Ireland (GGI) Facebook page Maurice Gleeson has posted some information about the Irish DNA Atlas talk at this years GGI.

"GGI2017 - Ed Gilbert presents the final results of the Irish DNA Atlas project - a 5-year mission to find out if different genetic populations can be delineated within Ireland. Are there several different Celtic signatures? Can we identify Viking DNA? Is there a genetic remnant from English planter stock? Is there a Norman genetic footprint? These and other questions will be answered on Sun 22nd Oct, RDS Dublin. What do you think we will find?"

So the good news it that it sounds like the final results will be told to those attending, the bad (but somewhat understandable) news is that the talk will not be recorded and put on Youtube since the results will not be published until some time next year (according to a comment by Maurice Gleeson). So it sounds like a bit more waiting but at least it is an update and hopefully someone on here might be going an willing to briefly summarise the talk?

Oh boy! I hope that is going to be uploaded to YouTube.

DillonResearcher
09-19-2017, 07:58 PM
Oh boy! I hope that is going to be uploaded to YouTube.

Afraid not, since the research is not due to be published until next year

fridurich
09-19-2017, 11:52 PM
On the Genetic Genealogy Ireland (GGI) Facebook page Maurice Gleeson has posted some information about the Irish DNA Atlas talk at this years GGI.

"GGI2017 - Ed Gilbert presents the final results of the Irish DNA Atlas project - a 5-year mission to find out if different genetic populations can be delineated within Ireland. Are there several different Celtic signatures? Can we identify Viking DNA? Is there a genetic remnant from English planter stock? Is there a Norman genetic footprint? These and other questions will be answered on Sun 22nd Oct, RDS Dublin. What do you think we will find?"

So the good news it that it sounds like the final results will be told to those attending, the bad (but somewhat understandable) news is that the talk will not be recorded and put on Youtube since the results will not be published until some time next year (according to a comment by Maurice Gleeson). So it sounds like a bit more waiting but at least it is an update and hopefully someone on here might be going an willing to briefly summarise the talk?

That would be great if someone that's on this forum went to the conference and reported back to us. I can't remember if Heber said he was going or not. I hope speakers give enough detail so that notes can be taken that aren't ambiguous, but detailed enough it is clear what is being said. Hopefully they will have some more charts and graphics that get photographed at high resolution, so those are very clear also.

Kind Regards

fridurich
09-20-2017, 12:01 AM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Does anyone have any idea where in Ireland this Norwegian cluster mentioned in Heber's notes is? Also, would you all say that the evidence shows very little Viking DNA input in the Irish as a whole, or substantial input in them? I would be interested in what you all feel the evidence is for your belief. Seems like obviously there is significant Viking DNA in whatever part of Ireland the Norwegian cluster is in.

Kind Regards

Jessie
09-20-2017, 01:58 AM
Does anyone have any idea where in Ireland this Norwegian cluster mentioned in Heber's notes is? Also, would you all say that the evidence shows very little Viking DNA input in the Irish as a whole, or substantial input in them? I would be interested in what you all feel the evidence is for your belief. Seems like obviously there is significant Viking DNA in whatever part of Ireland the Norwegian cluster is in.

Kind Regards

Hard to say about where the cluster is but this is a map of where the Vikings had settlements.

18877

It might not be complete though because I know there was a Viking settlement at Annagassan Co. Louth.

http://www.linnduachaill.ie/news/

There was also a Viking longphort at Knoxspark in Co Sligo and they found over 200 Viking graves there.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/lifestyle/vikings-had-a-much-bigger-presence-in-sligo-than-had-been-first-thought-27568729.html

They were also present on Lough Ree on the River Shannon, Ireland, separating Counties Longford and Westmeath (east) from County Roscommon (west).

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learning-zone/secondary-students/geography/regional-geography/lakelands-of-westmeath/lough-ree/vikings/

Because of Ireland's river systems they could have been anywhere.

Just adding that with the PoBI they had trouble picking up Danish Viking activity apparently because of the similarity to the Anglo-Saxons.

Hopefully we will get a lot more information next month.

Sikeliot
09-20-2017, 02:45 AM
Does anyone have any idea where in Ireland this Norwegian cluster mentioned in Heber's notes is?

JUST A GUESS. Maybe be wrong, but it might be either somewhere in the west or southeast. Places like Limerick, Galway, or Waterford/Wexford. My guess would be the southeast coast.

Teutorigos
09-20-2017, 05:46 AM
Whatever the case "Utahn" is probably just "Western/North-Western European mixed".

By the looks of it CEU and Utahn-White/Euro are referring to the same thing, just depends on the calculator.

Cool, thanks ! You learn something new everyday ! They do refer to the samething with different calculators. The CEU etc.. sample is not homogeneous but a mix of Danes or southern Swedes, Irish, Western Brits, East Germans or SouthEast Germans.

CillKenny
09-20-2017, 08:01 AM
I hope to attend but imagine that photography will not be allowed

Dubhthach
09-20-2017, 08:33 AM
Does anyone have any idea where in Ireland this Norwegian cluster mentioned in Heber's notes is? Also, would you all say that the evidence shows very little Viking DNA input in the Irish as a whole, or substantial input in them? I would be interested in what you all feel the evidence is for your belief. Seems like obviously there is significant Viking DNA in whatever part of Ireland the Norwegian cluster is in.

Kind Regards

I didn't read it like that, instead I read it that there is a cluster in Norway which matches the irish clusters.

Jessie
09-20-2017, 08:42 AM
I didn't read it like that, instead I read it that there is a cluster in Norway which matches the irish clusters.

That would be interesting.

How do you interpret this though?

Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Dubhthach
09-20-2017, 09:20 AM
That would be interesting.

How do you interpret this though?

Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Icelandic types in western Norway. Of course perhaps Heber can come back and give more detail on his points. The connection to NW France is fairly obvious on linguistic grounds alone.

As for Admixture, well Plantation is fairly obviously given the known history and the political map. as for the Norse, well what's gonna be hard there is that
(1) The Norse tended to be gaelicised and heavily intermarried, look at the house of Ivarr in Dublin for example.
(2) Other than in the immediate Dublin and Wexford town areas there was no large scale norse settlement, even than they got rolled over by the Normans in the 12th century, question arises how do we seperate out Norse ancestry from Cambro-Norman in those contexts.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin-vikings.jpg

Heber
09-20-2017, 11:13 AM
I would concur with Dubhthach's interpretation. The Y DNA evidence (from other studies) does not show a significant Viking cluster and several "Viking" names eg Doyle match "Gaelic" genetic markers.
However traces of a Norwegian cluster does show up in fine scale autosomal analysis.
I will be at GGI2017 and will take notes however I am sure photographs will not be allowed and there may even be restrictions on reporting.

Sikeliot
09-20-2017, 01:37 PM
Y-dna and autosomal do not always correlate.

You can lose the entire y-dna or mtdna trail of an invading group. To prove this I am going to use New World groups because I do not know how this would work for Ireland but try to follow along.

The Dominican population is largely European on the paternal side, and African on its maternal side. Pretend that Irish was settled en masse by men from the Dominican Republic and mixed. You'd end up with Irish with large amounts of SSA DNA but no trace of it in their haplogroups.

Dubhthach
09-20-2017, 03:36 PM
It's hardly surprising that Doyle though is actual Gaelic origin. The idea that it was a 'Norse surname' showed over-literalism when it came to translation. After all the word Dubhghall became a personal name, which is anglisced as Dugall. One of earliest references I can see of it been used as a personla name is the following in the Annals of Ulster:


U914.3

Niall son of Aed made an expedition into Dál Araidi in the month of June. Loingsech grandson of Lethlabar, king of Dál Araidi, came upon him at Fregabal and was defeated, and left behind on his retreat Flathruae grandson of Lethlabar, his kinsman. Aed son of Eochucán, king of the Province, and Loingsech, king of Dál Araidi, met them again at Carn Éirenn and were defeated. Cerrán son of Colman, chief of Cenél Maelchi, and the son of Allacán son of Laíchthechán, and others, were left behind. Aed, however, returning from the flight with a very few, and fiercely resisting during the flight, wiped out some of Niall's soldiers. His son Dubgall was wounded and escaped.
...
U925.1
Dubgall son of Aed, king of Ulaid, was killed by his own people.
..
U980.5
Dubgall son of Donnchad, heir designate of Ailech, was killed by his own kinsman, i.e. Muiredach son of Flann. Muiredach son of Flann was beheaded by his own sept before a full month had passed.


These are high prestige individuals bearing it as a first name in the 10th century.

fridurich
09-21-2017, 12:27 AM
Hard to say about where the cluster is but this is a map of where the Vikings had settlements.

18877

It might not be complete though because I know there was a Viking settlement at Annagassan Co. Louth.

http://www.linnduachaill.ie/news/

There was also a Viking longphort at Knoxspark in Co Sligo and they found over 200 Viking graves there.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/lifestyle/vikings-had-a-much-bigger-presence-in-sligo-than-had-been-first-thought-27568729.html

They were also present on Lough Ree on the River Shannon, Ireland, separating Counties Longford and Westmeath (east) from County Roscommon (west).

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learning-zone/secondary-students/geography/regional-geography/lakelands-of-westmeath/lough-ree/vikings/

Because of Ireland's river systems they could have been anywhere.

Just adding that with the PoBI they had trouble picking up Danish Viking activity apparently because of the similarity to the Anglo-Saxons.

Hopefully we will get a lot more information next month.

Thanks Jessie for the interesting maps and links. I didn't know there was a Viking settlement in Sligo, interesting! To anyone who cares to answer this, is it possible that since Danish DNA is probably so similar to Anglo-Saxon DNA, that there could be a lot more Viking DNA in Ireland than is thought, because Danish Viking DNA probably can't be picked out from the DNA of the English very easily? However, it seems like most of the Vikings in Ireland were thought to be Norwegian.

fridurich
09-21-2017, 12:35 AM
JUST A GUESS. Maybe be wrong, but it might be either somewhere in the west or southeast. Places like Limerick, Galway, or Waterford/Wexford. My guess would be the southeast coast.

Thanks. I had thought it might be where known areas of Viking settlement were. One place I thought of was Dublin and the area near it.

fridurich
09-21-2017, 01:00 AM
Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

Short 10 m introduction to the project.

Cohort=192
Four generations of Irish Ancestry
8 GP 50 KM
In combination with POBI
POBI Cohort=2,039
10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
European Cohort=6,760
Ancient Irish Genomes=2
3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
NW France cluster
Norwegian cluster
Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
Admixture events
Plantations of Ulster
Norse - Viking settlement

Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000343
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v16/n5/full/nrg3946.html

Heber, I thank you and I'm grateful to you for taking the notes and reporting them to us. Would you mind explaining please, what you meant by this,
"3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)"?

What do you mean "shared"? Out of 10 geographic genetic clusters for Ireland/N. Ireland, 7 Gaelic Irish ones are in Ireland. However, that seems to imply the only genetic clusters in N. Ireland are the British/Irish clusters! So, I must be missing something somewhere. The POBI map showed the Gaelic Northern Irish/Western Scottish Highlander cluster with green triangles, in Northern Ireland and Western Scotland if I remember right.

The only other thing I can figure out is if by "shared" you mean that the British/Irish clusters share autosomal DNA with the Gaelic Irish of Northern Ireland.

Sikeliot
09-21-2017, 03:29 AM
What do you mean "shared"? Out of 10 geographic genetic clusters for Ireland/N. Ireland, 7 Gaelic Irish ones are in Ireland.

They could just be calling all the clusters in Ireland proper "Gaelic Irish" regardless of who they plot with.

Heber
10-07-2017, 10:08 AM
Lots of interesting presentations at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2017 including
Icelandic Roots and Identities - Professor Gilsi Pallsson
The Genetics of the Transatlantic Slave Trade - Professor Hannes Schroeder
Ancient DNA and Genetic History of Europeans Dr. Eppie Jones
Recent Findings in Ancient Irish DNA - Professor Dan Bradley
Genomic Insights into the History of Irish Travellers . Dr. Gianpiero Cavalerri
The Irish DNA Atlas - Dr Ed Gilbert
along with many lectures on Family Trees, Autosomal, Y and mtDNA and Regional Irish DNA.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2017

I have organised a day out for speakers and ISOGG volunteers on Monday 23rd including a short overview of two labs:
http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/09/isogg-day-out-2017.html
Smurfit Ancient DNA - TCD
Pinhasi Lab - UCD

as well as
Book of Kells
Ancient Irish Manuscripts
Irish Folklore Commission
Insight Center for Data Analytics
Pinhasi Ancient DNA - UCD
Genomics Medicine Ireland

fridurich
10-07-2017, 04:35 PM
Lots of interesting presentations at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2017 including
Icelandic Roots and Identities - Professor Gilsi Pallsson
The Genetics of the Transatlantic Slave Trade - Professor Hannes Schroeder
Ancient DNA and Genetic History of Europeans Dr. Eppie Jones
Recent Findings in Ancient Irish DNA - Professor Dan Bradley
Genomic Insights into the History of Irish Travellers . Dr. Gianpiero Cavalerri
The Irish DNA Atlas - Dr Ed Gilbert
along with many lectures on Family Trees, Autosomal, Y and mtDNA and Regional Irish DNA.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2017

I have organised a day out for speakers and ISOGG volunteers on Monday 23rd including a short overview of two labs:
http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/09/isogg-day-out-2017.html
Smurfit Ancient DNA - TCD
Pinhasi Lab - UCD

as well as
Book of Kells
Ancient Irish Manuscripts
Irish Folklore Commission
Insight Center for Data Analytics
Pinhasi Ancient DNA - UCD
Genomics Medicine Ireland

Thanks Heber! It all sounds very interesting including the visits to the DNA labs, ancient Irish manuscripts etc.

Now that you post here, what did you mean in an earlier posted about a conference you went to that mentioned the results of the Irish DNA Atlas project. Out of 10 distinct geographic genetic clusters, you mentioned "7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)", and "3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)". To me, this seems to be saying all of the Gaelic Irish clusters are in Ireland, and that there are no Gaelic Irish clusters in N. Ireland, but instead N. Ireland has only the 3 shared British/Irish (descended from the Planters I assume) clusters.

What do you mean by "shared"?

Where am I missing what you mean? Please clarify. Many Thanks!

Kind Regards,
Fred

Heber
10-08-2017, 08:59 AM
Fred,
The slides were not clear.
I am assuming these are shared Scots / Irish including Planter and Dal Riatha +Another.
It was a 10 minute presentation with no questions.
GGI2017 will be 60 minutes including questions.
I will try to clarify in at GGI2017.

fridurich
10-09-2017, 03:05 AM
Fred,
The slides were not clear.
I am assuming these are shared Scots / Irish including Planter and Dal Riatha +Another.
It was a 10 minute presentation with no questions.
GGI2017 will be 60 minutes including questions.
I will try to clarify in at GGI2017.

Thanks Gerard. I appreciate you wanting to get clarification on the shared British/Irish clusters. Hopefully, the presenters will make very clear what they are saying regarding all the Irish DNA Atlas material, leaving no room for ambiguity or dispute about what is meant, unless of course, it is something they just aren't sure about.

King Regards,
Fred

DillonResearcher
10-17-2017, 06:52 PM
I am unable to attend but have a favour to ask of someone attending the Irish DNA Atlas talk at GGI which might be of interest to some others on here as well perhaps.

Would someone be willing perhaps to ask whether they (Irish DNA Atlas) are still intending to conduct Y-DNA testing of their participant's samples and if so what sort of testing will they use; e.g. SNP panel or (probably wandering into the realms of fantasy) NGS.

If someone could ask and post the response on here please I would be very grateful.

Jessie
10-19-2017, 05:11 PM
Hopefully someone will give us some feedback on the Irish DNA Atlas as soon as possible. I've been counting the days so I hope there will be some good information coming out of this talk.

fridurich
10-20-2017, 11:46 AM
The Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2017 conference is being live streamed now on Facebook! I have to go to work soon here in Texas, so won't be able to see much of it now. It looks very interesting!!

fridurich
10-20-2017, 11:47 AM
You may have to join the Genetic Genealogy Ireland Facebook group to see the live stream. I have joined the group.

Dubhthach
10-20-2017, 12:01 PM
I'm curious if they will live stream all the talks.

Heber
10-20-2017, 12:35 PM
Many presentations will be live streamed but not the IDA presentation and othere academic presentations with unpublished data.

Heber
10-20-2017, 09:17 PM
Many presentations will be live streamed but not the IDA presentation and othere academic presentations with unpublished data.

Here is the link. I will Live Stream most of the remaining permitted sessions over the next two days.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/geneticgenealogyireland/

CillKenny
10-22-2017, 03:46 PM
Gerard Corcoran asked the question on Ydna and the answer was reasonably positive but it was stated by Ed that it costs money to sequence the samples. The paper is in the stage of commenting on referees comments so Ed hopes it will be published soon, which I took to mean months rather than years.

The Norwegian influence mentioned from Gerard's earlier summary from the September event was very interesting. Not as high as Orkney but much higher than the UK and other places. The signal seems evenly dispersed. We know that the Norse founded most of our cities so it started very much concentrated in local areas. I would speculate that the even spread relates to the Gaelic take over of the Norse cities during and after the life of Brian Boru.

jonathanmcg1990
10-22-2017, 03:59 PM
Gerard Corcoran asked the question on Ydna and the answer was reasonably positive but it was stated by Ed that it costs money to sequence the samples. The paper is in the stage of commenting on referees comments so Ed hopes it will be published soon, which I took to mean months rather than years.

The Norwegian influence mentioned from Gerard's earlier summary from the September event was very interesting. Not as high as Orkney but much higher than the UK and other places. The signal seems evenly dispersed. We know that the Norse founded most of our cities so it started very much concentrated in local areas. I would speculate that the even spread relates to the Gaelic take over of the Norse cities during and after the life of Brian Boru.

The % of Norwegian influence in Irish DNA be similar to highland Scotland.

J1 DYS388=13
10-22-2017, 03:59 PM
The Norse connection was mentioned and mapped in connection with I1a in the talk by Margaret Jordan. https://www.facebook.com/groups/geneticgenealogyireland/?hc_ref=ARROdpItg6yPE1ahK2eCqzjBu6eDDXP86nrjvJ2JnF zoo9TVubJiobcUB-PlLr4qmkA

Dubhthach
10-22-2017, 05:08 PM
With regards to Norse, the question arise are modern Norwegians a good proxy for early medieval Norse speakers? After all if we glance over norwegian history in middle ages we see mass migration into Norway from other countries. There's also the fact that the continental clusters were generated in a dataset that explicitly excluded Irish and British samples. As all the sample are modern it excludes the fact that modern populations are probably bad proxies for ancient ones.

What we would need to prove this hypothesis of widespread Norse component in irish population is a decent size dataset of Early medieval ancient DNA genomes, eg. those from pre-Norse contact (5-8th century AD) if the component is absent in those than we know it comes from contact point. I also wonder if Norse element might represent a component of Cambro-Norman ancestry. Again only with a wide range of aDNA genomes, will we be able to tell.

Leaving that aside some comments on the clusters they implied. The three 'British-Irish' clusters are basically confined to Northern Ireland with odd individual in Dublin and an outlier down in Cork (Protestant ancestry perhaps?). They appear to detect three pulses of admixture which unsurprisingly range across the 17th/18th century which makes sense in context of Early Modern Irish history.

With regard to the other clusters. Their definition of 'Connacht' also appears to stretch over into Meath and was is now generally regarded as 'north leinster', south of this is the 'Central Ireland' cluster which stetches Galway <-> Dublin, from what I recall in their admixture analysis these two spilt from each other at a higher K level. If you ask me on very basic view this probably reflects the political boundaries where Connacht and Meath were both controlled by the Dál Cuinn (eg. Connacht and Southern Uí Néill), there also fact that the dialects of Irish spoken in lot of what we now term 'North Leinster' are transitional dialects between 'Connacht Irish' and 'Ulster Irish'.

When it came to their K analysis the first group to spilt out was 'Northern Irish 1-3' followed by Munster, followed by Ulster. Munster spilt into 'North Munster' and 'South Munster', it was mentioned of course the two subkingdoms of Munster, but I do wonder if part of dynamic might be due to Cambro-Norman conquest of most of 'North Munster' region contributing to the spilt.

CillKenny
10-22-2017, 06:21 PM
Dubhthach,

The Norwegians were said to be coastal and not from the large population areas. The timing was also calculated to be in line with the Viking times. Normans are like in the UK seemingly missing in the data.

I thought the Central Ireland group were split off from the Leinster group and not the northern groups. This would be in line with what Ed presented in July 2016. This might reflect the ancient history of Leinster stretching from Leinster into Connacht in the distant past and the hypothesis that the Laigin were a later group that moved up from the south (when the Ui Neill took over North Leinster) and then adopted the ancient history of the earlier group the Fir Domhann.

Dubhthach
10-22-2017, 06:36 PM
Dubntach,

The Norwegians were said to be coastal and not from the large population areas. The timing was also calculated to be in line with the Viking times. Normans are like in the UK seemingly missing in the data.

I thought the Central Ireland group were split off from the Leinster group and not the northern groups. This would be in line with what Ed presented in July 2016. This might reflect the ancient history of Leinster stretching from Leinster into Connacht in the distant past and the hypothesis that the Laigin were a later group that moved up from the south (when the Ui Neill took over North Leinster) and then adopted the ancient history of the earlier group the Fir Domhann.

Tbh it was hard to tell with the presentation, ideally you would have to see each K level in a zoomable PDF (akin to what PoBI did). This would allow us to see how the groups spilt. What we have to remember is that in coastal Norway there are plenty of signs of contact with Ireland during the viking period (eg. grave goods that are obviously spoila etc.) We likewise see stuff like M222 show up in odd Norwegian/Swedish sample. My main issue in sense with modern clusters is they were generated with the idea that neither Ireland or Britain exist. As a result if there is any gene-flow from Ireland to Norway (or vice-versa) it's not obvious in the base cluster.

Ideally all the samples should have been thrown in same pot (eg. continental + PoBI + Irish DNA Atlas) and then distinct clusters could have been generated. I have somewhat of similiar issue with the FRA1 cluster which peaks in NW France. We of course know that to this day a Brythonic language is still spoken in NW France. The question arises then is FRA1 an artificial construct that (due to lack of PoBI/Irish DNA Atlas samples) doesn't reflect historical admixture from Britain back into Northern France during the sub-roman period.

Ideally if we want baselines for admixture we need the following:

1. Iron age/ Early Christian full genomes
2. Genomes from 9th-12th century
3. Genomes from the middle ages predating 1500

Sequencing remains from Ballyhanna in Donegal would be a good start, there was over 1,000 good quality skeletons recovered spanning a period of nearly 800 years. Likewise the graveyard in Cabinteely which spanned the 6th-12th century and contained at least 1,500 individuals. I didn't realise but another major cemetry was also found in Kildare during the boom (over 1,300 burials) which span from Early Medieval period right into Norman period.

CillKenny
10-22-2017, 06:47 PM
Dubhthach,

That is some amazing amount of potential material to sequence. Lets hope it is done.

Agree on what you could see today. I was very hard to see anything in any detail.

Pat

Dubhthach
10-22-2017, 06:59 PM
Well at least it's out to review at the moment, as Ed mention they have answered most of the questions poised by the reviewers, so hopefully we'll get the paper within the next 6 months. Of course it will be interesting what future work is done with dataset, Dr. Gianpiero Cavalleri for example in his earlier talk on the Travellers mention that we are approaching the 500euro per genome level. This initial Irish DNA atlas work is based on something like an analysis of 600,000 SNP's. I imagine in 10 years time they could do full genome sequence on the whole cohort for a reasonable price.

Bradley's mention of the Mesolithic genome is gonna be an interesting paper as well, it will at least prove to naysayers that there has been significant population turnover in Ireland at least twice since it was first settled.

fridurich
10-22-2017, 07:41 PM
With regards to Norse, the question arise are modern Norwegians a good proxy for early medieval Norse speakers? After all if we glance over norwegian history in middle ages we see mass migration into Norway from other countries. There's also the fact that the continental clusters were generated in a dataset that explicitly excluded Irish and British samples. As all the sample are modern it excludes the fact that modern populations are probably bad proxies for ancient ones.

What we would need to prove this hypothesis of widespread Norse component in irish population is a decent size dataset of Early medieval ancient DNA genomes, eg. those from pre-Norse contact (5-8th century AD) if the component is absent in those than we know it comes from contact point. I also wonder if Norse element might represent a component of Cambro-Norman ancestry. Again only with a wide range of aDNA genomes, will we be able to tell.

Leaving that aside some comments on the clusters they implied. The three 'British-Irish' clusters are basically confined to Northern Ireland with odd individual in Dublin and an outlier down in Cork (Protestant ancestry perhaps?). They appear to detect three pulses of admixture which unsurprisingly range across the 17th/18th century which makes sense in context of Early Modern Irish history.

With regard to the other clusters. Their definition of 'Connacht' also appears to stretch over into Meath and was is now generally regarded as 'north leinster', south of this is the 'Central Ireland' cluster which stetches Galway <-> Dublin, from what I recall in their admixture analysis these two spilt from each other at a higher K level. If you ask me on very basic view this probably reflects the political boundaries where Connacht and Meath were both controlled by the Dál Cuinn (eg. Connacht and Southern Uí Néill), there also fact that the dialects of Irish spoken in lot of what we now term 'North Leinster' are transitional dialects between 'Connacht Irish' and 'Ulster Irish'.

When it came to their K analysis the first group to spilt out was 'Northern Irish 1-3' followed by Munster, followed by Ulster. Munster spilt into 'North Munster' and 'South Munster', it was mentioned of course the two subkingdoms of Munster, but I do wonder if part of dynamic might be due to Cambro-Norman conquest of most of 'North Munster' region contributing to the spilt.

Did you attend the conference? Even if you were watching the live streaming, can you tell me which of the talks mentioned the 3 British/Irish clusters? Still trying to figure out what the ethnicity of those clusters are. The name British/Irish, at least on the surface, might suggest these are descendants of the Planters and not descendants of the native Gaelic Irish who were there before the Ulster Plantations. Thanks for any help on this. I have watched some of the talks and they are very interesting!!!

Kind Regards

sktibo
10-22-2017, 07:45 PM
When it came to their K analysis the first group to spilt out was 'Northern Irish 1-3' followed by Munster, followed by Ulster. Munster spilt into 'North Munster' and 'South Munster', it was mentioned of course the two subkingdoms of Munster, but I do wonder if part of dynamic might be due to Cambro-Norman conquest of most of 'North Munster' region contributing to the spilt.

Just to try and see if I'm understanding this correctly, Northern Ireland was the most distinct, Munster was the next most distinct, and Ulster (Donegal?) was the last to split off into its own category?
Did Munster include Connacht then?
Does this imply that Donegal is perhaps the most Irish region as Sikeliot had suggested?


I also want to add on the topic of the Scandinavian similarity that with NW Europeans being so similar overall, I'm not sure if a Scandinavian similarity is actually a marker of Viking influence - I think if they used data from Britain and the Scandinavian similarity remained then it would indicate that, but I'm not surprised that this shows up in a significant percentage when Ireland is modeled based upon mainland populations only.

Dubhthach
10-22-2017, 09:06 PM
Did you attend the conference? Even if you were watching the live streaming, can you tell me which of the talks mentioned the 3 British/Irish clusters? Still trying to figure out what the ethnicity of those clusters are. The name British/Irish, at least on the surface, might suggest these are descendants of the Planters and not descendants of the native Gaelic Irish who were there before the Ulster Plantations. Thanks for any help on this. I have watched some of the talks and they are very interesting!!!

Kind Regards

I managed to make it in today to the RDS yes, wasn't able to attend Friday due to work (Though watched most of the live streams) and yesterday due to Storm Brian and family commitments. It was in the Irish DNA Atlas talk that mentioned the three 'North Ireland' clusters. These are concentrated within the NE of Ireland (Eg. modern Northern Ireland) but with outliers showing up in Dublin (and one in Cork).

What seems to be the case is these are admixed populations eg. you got in a pulse of migration and than within a number of generations you had admixture going on with the already present population. in other words people who fall into one of these 'North Ireland' cluster has some ancestry that comes from a minimum of one or more of the 'Gaelic Irish' clusters (they modelled this admixture as coming from Ulster, Central Irish and Dublin clusters I believe)

The estimates of admixture range from the 1630's on one cluster into the mid 18th century, which would make sense given that there were probably mulitple pulses of movement into Ulster during the 17th century (and also assuming there might be a gap of couple generations before intermarriage with the 'natives' might have happened)

Dubhthach
10-22-2017, 09:13 PM
Just to try and see if I'm understanding this correctly, Northern Ireland was the most distinct, Munster was the next most distinct, and Ulster (Donegal?) was the last to split off into its own category?
Did Munster include Connacht then?
Does this imply that Donegal is perhaps the most Irish region as Sikeliot had suggested?


I also want to add on the topic of the Scandinavian similarity that with NW Europeans being so similar overall, I'm not sure if a Scandinavian similarity is actually a marker of Viking influence - I think if they used data from Britain and the Scandinavian similarity remained then it would indicate that, but I'm not surprised that this shows up in a significant percentage when Ireland is modeled based upon mainland populations only.

So if you were running a K=1, K=2, K=3 analysis the first group to pop out were those who belong to the three 'North Ireland' clusters this was at K=2, at K=3 Munster pop out, K=4 Ulster pop out, now he didn't go into exact detail but it's only had higher K level that see for example Dublin splitting out as it's own cluster etc.

Eventually you end up with something like:

South Munster
North Munster
Leinster (more akin to historic kingdom of Leinster than modern province)
Central Ireland (stretching Galway to Dublin)
Dublin
Connacht
Ulster
North Ireland 1
North Ireland 2
North Ireland 3

He went through this quite fast, so I'm not sure of exact points each cluster pop out, apart from the first couple.

What this implies is that within context of Ireland that the 'North Irish' clusters are most distinctive first, which make sense as they are admixed with British clusters, thus they stand out from rest of sample set. Again it was a fairly lighting talk so it's hard to say what was included, but it would seem that 'Connacht' remained part of the 'general irish' (think equivalent 'red cluster' in PoBI) when Munster popped out, and it was only at higher K level that it appear as distinct cluster.

We really need to see the paper when it's published tbh, i'm hoping they copy PoBI where they gave up to K=15 + in the supplementary information pdf.

sktibo
10-22-2017, 09:32 PM
So if you were running a K=1, K=2, K=3 analysis the first group to pop out were those who belong to the three 'North Ireland' clusters this was at K=2, at K=3 Munster pop out, K=4 Ulster pop out, now he didn't go into exact detail but it's only had higher K level that see for example Dublin splitting out as it's own cluster etc.

Eventually you end up with something like:

South Munster
North Munster
Leinster (more akin to historic kingdom of Leinster than modern province)
Central Ireland (stretching Galway to Dublin)
Dublin
Connacht
Ulster
North Ireland 1
North Ireland 2
North Ireland 3

He went through this quite fast, so I'm not sure of exact points each cluster pop out, apart from the first couple.

What this implies is that within context of Ireland that the 'North Irish' clusters are most distinctive first, which make sense as they are admixed with British clusters, thus they stand out from rest of sample set. Again it was a fairly lighting talk so it's hard to say what was included, but it would seem that 'Connacht' remained part of the 'general irish' (think equivalent 'red cluster' in PoBI) when Munster popped out, and it was only at higher K level that it appear as distinct cluster.

We really need to see the paper when it's published tbh, i'm hoping they copy PoBI where they gave up to K=15 + in the supplementary information pdf.

Thanks, IIRC it is going to be quite some time though before it is published?
I suppose at the time being it is hard to tell if Munster is "more Irish" or "less Irish" than the other non-Northern clusters as we aren't totally sure what the early split means for it? on one hand the Northern clusters split first, on the other, Dublin splits much later

I'm disappointed that we'll have to wait for this to be published to get this stuff answered! Thank you for everything you have reported of course

Heber
10-22-2017, 10:30 PM
Here are my summary notes. Reflects Dubhthach observations above.

IDA, No Live Streaming, No Photos
1. The Irish DNA Atlas, Preface
2. Novembre Fine Scale Structure, similar to POBI
3. Highest Frequency Ireland, R1b, Red Hair, Lactose Tolerance, Hemachromotis etc.
4. Migrations Vikings, Normans, Planters
5. Irish Y DNA Studies, Bradley, M222 etc
6. North South Ireland Divide
7. North South Munster Divide
8. Ancient DNA, Ballynahatty, Rathlin
9. Neolithic, Bronze Age Replacement
10. Irish DNA Atlas, Methodology
11. 8 GGP, 50 KM, GSI Recruited Samples
12. 330 Samples Processed, 192 Selected
13. 600K Varients, Illumina Omniexpress
14. Population Structure
15. IDA compared to POBI 2,000 Samples using fineStructure
16. 30 Clusters in Britain
17. 10 Clusters
18. 3 Irish British (NI), 7 Irish
19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter)
20. NI-2. 53 Irish, 19 Scottish, (Dal Riada)
21. NI-3. ? Irish, ? Border (Riever?, Planter)
22. NI-3>NI-2>NI-1
23. SMunster, NMunster, Leinster, Central, Connacht, ...
24. Clare is mixture of Munster and Connacht
25. Population Structure / Migration Rates using EEMS
26. Very Nice Map showing Migration Rates
27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide
28. Clear North / South Divide
29. Possibly Reflects Eskar Riada (My Analysis)
30. Clear West Midlands Divide
31. Possibly Reflects Slieve Bloom, Last Gaelic Stronghold (My Analysis)
32. Irish British Admixture dated to 17th Century
33. Possibly Reflects Tudor, Cromwellian, Williamite Plantations
34. European Regression Analysis
35. 30 Irish + British Clusters, 51 European Clusters
36. Irish>British>NW France>Belgium>Germany
37. England/Danish/German Cluster, Anglo Saxon
38. Irish/NW France Cluster, Celtic
39. Norwegian Cluster, Viking
40. French Ancestry Interpolation (Nice Map)
41. European Ancestry Admixture (Chart)
42. Ireland quiet isolated, French like Ancestry
43. No clear identification of Anglo Norman Cluster
44. Viking not present in Y study, present in IDA fineStructure study
45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster
46. Future: FGS all Samples, Y and mtDNA if funding permits
47. Continue recruiting samples, also working on Isle of Man
48. Paper submitted, results presented at ASHG this week
49. Responded to most questions
50. Awaiting publication date.

sktibo
10-22-2017, 11:18 PM
Here are my summary notes. Reflects Dubhthach observations above.

45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster

47. Continue recruiting samples, also working on Isle of Man


So it did find Ulster to be the most Gaelic / Irish then, interesting! Really happy to see they're going to do a study on the Isle of Man, that should be very interesting

fridurich
10-23-2017, 12:57 AM
So it did find Ulster to be the most Gaelic / Irish then, interesting! Really happy to see they're going to do a study on the Isle of Man, that should be very interesting

Yes, with the Isle of Man's mixed Gaelic/Viking heritage, that should be a real interesting study. I think a lot of Isle of Man surnames used to have Mac in front of them, but practically all of them dropped it. Also, I have read that Fletcher Christian's (of the Mutiny on the Bounty fame), father's line was from the Isle of Man where their surname used to be McCrystyn and they were deemsters (judges).

Sikeliot
10-23-2017, 01:00 AM
So it did find Ulster to be the most Gaelic / Irish then, interesting! Really happy to see they're going to do a study on the Isle of Man, that should be very interesting

So this would likely mean Donegal.

fridurich
10-23-2017, 01:34 AM
Here are my summary notes. Reflects Dubhthach observations above.

IDA, No Live Streaming, No Photos
1. The Irish DNA Atlas, Preface
2. Novembre Fine Scale Structure, similar to POBI
3. Highest Frequency Ireland, R1b, Red Hair, Lactose Tolerance, Hemachromotis etc.
4. Migrations Vikings, Normans, Planters
5. Irish Y DNA Studies, Bradley, M222 etc
6. North South Ireland Divide
7. North South Munster Divide
8. Ancient DNA, Ballynahatty, Rathlin
9. Neolithic, Bronze Age Replacement
10. Irish DNA Atlas, Methodology
11. 8 GGP, 50 KM, GSI Recruited Samples
12. 330 Samples Processed, 192 Selected
13. 600K Varients, Illumina Omniexpress
14. Population Structure
15. IDA compared to POBI 2,000 Samples using fineStructure
16. 30 Clusters in Britain
17. 10 Clusters
18. 3 Irish British (NI), 7 Irish
19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter)
20. NI-2. 53 Irish, 19 Scottish, (Dal Riada)
21. NI-3. ? Irish, ? Border (Riever?, Planter)
22. NI-3>NI-2>NI-1
23. SMunster, NMunster, Leinster, Central, Connacht, ...
24. Clare is mixture of Munster and Connacht
25. Population Structure / Migration Rates using EEMS
26. Very Nice Map showing Migration Rates
27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide
28. Clear North / South Divide
29. Possibly Reflects Eskar Riada (My Analysis)
30. Clear West Midlands Divide
31. Possibly Reflects Slieve Bloom, Last Gaelic Stronghold (My Analysis)
32. Irish British Admixture dated to 17th Century
33. Possibly Reflects Tudor, Cromwellian, Williamite Plantations
34. European Regression Analysis
35. 30 Irish + British Clusters, 51 European Clusters
36. Irish>British>NW France>Belgium>Germany
37. England/Danish/German Cluster, Anglo Saxon
38. Irish/NW France Cluster, Celtic
39. Norwegian Cluster, Viking
40. French Ancestry Interpolation (Nice Map)
41. European Ancestry Admixture (Chart)
42. Ireland quiet isolated, French like Ancestry
43. No clear identification of Anglo Norman Cluster
44. Viking not present in Y study, present in IDA fineStructure study
45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster
46. Future: FGS all Samples, Y and mtDNA if funding permits
47. Continue recruiting samples, also working on Isle of Man
48. Paper submitted, results presented at ASHG this week
49. Responded to most questions
50. Awaiting publication date.

Gerard, thanks so much for being present at the conference and the copious note taking you did! I really appreciate that. So, many interesting things in your notes.

I see the 10 clusters mentioned that I think would have to be all that are on the island of Ireland (at least at a certain level of K). Out of those 10, 7 are Irish. So does that mean that everyone from Northern Ireland, (including those of Gaelic Irish descent), who participated in the Irish DNA Atlas has to be in one of the 3 British/Irish clusters? This would seem to mean everyone in Northern Ireland who has native Gaelic Irish ancestry also has some British ancestry. Or, am I wrong on that interpretation?

Kind Regards

fridurich
10-23-2017, 01:50 AM
I managed to make it in today to the RDS yes, wasn't able to attend Friday due to work (Though watched most of the live streams) and yesterday due to Storm Brian and family commitments. It was in the Irish DNA Atlas talk that mentioned the three 'North Ireland' clusters. These are concentrated within the NE of Ireland (Eg. modern Northern Ireland) but with outliers showing up in Dublin (and one in Cork).

What seems to be the case is these are admixed populations eg. you got in a pulse of migration and than within a number of generations you had admixture going on with the already present population. in other words people who fall into one of these 'North Ireland' cluster has some ancestry that comes from a minimum of one or more of the 'Gaelic Irish' clusters (they modelled this admixture as coming from Ulster, Central Irish and Dublin clusters I believe)

The estimates of admixture range from the 1630's on one cluster into the mid 18th century, which would make sense given that there were probably mulitple pulses of movement into Ulster during the 17th century (and also assuming there might be a gap of couple generations before intermarriage with the 'natives' might have happened)

Thanks so much for going to the talk about the Irish DNA Atlas. I really appreciate that! Thanks for your reply to me too.

I also looked at Gerard's notes he took at the conference. It appears that he mentions 10 clusters on the island of Ireland (at least at a certain level of K). He mentions that 7 of them are Irish, or are in Ireland. Well, that appears to leave only the 3 British/Irish clusters. So, does this mean that everyone in Northern Ireland (even those of native Gaelic Irish descent) has to fall into one of those 3 British/Irish clusters? If so, this would appear to show that everyone from Northern Ireland who participated in the Irish DNA Atlas project is mixed native Gaelic Irish and British. Or, am I missing it somewhere? I have posed the same question to Gerard.

Kind Regards

kevinduffy
10-23-2017, 01:58 AM
Gerard, thanks so much for being present at the conference and the copious note taking you did! I really appreciate that. So, many interesting things in your notes.

I see the 10 clusters mentioned that I think would have to be all that are on the island of Ireland (at least at a certain level of K). Out of those 10, 7 are Irish. So does that mean that everyone from Northern Ireland, (including those of Gaelic Irish descent), who participated in the Irish DNA Atlas has to be in one of the 3 British/Irish clusters? This would seem to mean everyone in Northern Ireland who has native Gaelic Irish ancestry also has some British ancestry. Or, am I wrong on that interpretation?

Kind Regards

27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide

Since West Ulster is largely Irish Catholic and most of the British Protestants live in East Ulster this would seem to indicate that there are significant genetic differences between Irish Catholics and British Protestants in Ulster.

45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster

This would also seem to indicate significant genetic differences between the Irish Catholics of Ulster and the British.

Sikeliot
10-23-2017, 02:11 AM
45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster

This would also seem to indicate significant genetic differences between the Irish Catholics of Ulster and the British.

This implies to me that Ulster Catholics have the least ancestry from Britain of all Irish.

kevinduffy
10-23-2017, 03:01 AM
This implies to me that Ulster Catholics have the least ancestry from Britain of all Irish.

That does seem to be the case. I guess British colonists in other parts of Ireland were absorbed into the native Irish Catholic population.

Sikeliot
10-23-2017, 03:03 AM
That does seem to be the case. I guess British colonists in other parts of Ireland were absorbed into the native Irish Catholic population.

How much British ancestry does there seem to be in Leinster, Munster and Connacht?

My guess is contrary to original assumptions, there is more British ancestry even on the west coast of Connacht than in the Ulster Catholics.

fridurich
10-23-2017, 04:11 AM
27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide

Since West Ulster is largely Irish Catholic and most of the British Protestants live in East Ulster this would seem to indicate that there are significant genetic differences between Irish Catholics and British Protestants in Ulster.

45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster

This would also seem to indicate significant genetic differences between the Irish Catholics of Ulster and the British.

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't aware of exactly where the concentrations of all of the Catholics and Protestants were in Ulster. I understand what you are saying. I just don't understand how there can only be only 10 clusters mentioned in Gerard's notes and there is a purple Gaelic cluster in Ulster, because he mentions 10 clusters with 3 British/Irish clusters in Northern Ireland and 7 Irish clusters in Ireland.

I would expect there to be a Gaelic cluster(s) in Northern Ireland that show distinctiveness from British Clusters as the K/resolution level increases. However is the purple Gaelic cluster an 11th cluster, unless there is a different level of K that the purple one appears? I must be misunderstanding what he is trying to say. I have replied to his post to see what he means.

I don't doubt there is some differences between the autosomal DNA of the descendants of the Planters and that of the Gaelic Irish. On a YDNA level, I have read where some of the descendants of the Planters are M222, which is what I am. My surname is O'Hair and my distant O'Hair cousin and I are confirmed M222>S588>S603. There are many Irish and Scottish surnames that are S588 (S588 also has some northern Ui Neill surnames.) , and in S603, there are some Scottish surnames.

In Dubhthach's (he was at the conference) post, if I understand him right, the 3 British/Irish clusters in Northern Ireland had some admixture from the Gaelic Irish who live there, and these admixture events took place from about 1630 to the 18th century. I was surprised at that. I can see the Lowland Scots (especially the ones from Ayrshire and Galloway with their Gaelic culture and language in the past) and Irish mixing before the Reformation , but after the time of the Ulster Plantation of 1609, I would have thought the two groups would, in general, have regarded each other as enemies, and therefore, very little intermarriage.

Furthermore, I was surprised to recently find out that a County Down, Northern Ireland DNA autosomal match to my O'Hair uncle has an Ulster Scot/Scottish surname even though she has an O'Hare great grandmother. This great grandmother married a Protestant with an English sounding surname. She mentioned that there were a lot of mixed marriages in her family. Also, a distant O'Hare cousin of hers also has instances of Ulster Scot ancestry. So, I don't think it was always as segregated in Northern Ireland as I have been told it was.

As for myself, I have Irish, Ulster Scot, Scottish, Welsh, English, and other European ancestry.

Kind Regards

Pascal C
10-23-2017, 04:26 AM
This implies to me that Ulster Catholics have the least ancestry from Britain of all Irish.

McSweeneys, McQuillans, McKeons, McDonnells, McColls, McCabes, McIntyres, McCollums, some Campbells, among others, are supposed to be of British extraction. Prior to the plantation of Ulster there were many noted movements of people from Britain to Ulster from the 12th century onward. I'm a little skeptical of the interpretations so far.

Pascal C
10-23-2017, 04:29 AM
And no one mentioned gallowglass as a potential source of some of that Norwegian gene flow?

Heber
10-23-2017, 07:21 AM
The Admixture slides were not clear and it was difficult to distinguish circles, triangles, square and various hues of colour.
The paper will give far more resolution and interesting charts and maps.
Some of the (very nice) maps and charts used were new to me in Population studies of this type and where indicated some of the interpretation is mine. Ed was reluctant to give historical context to the findings. So I guess we will have to wait for the paper for a definitive

avalon
10-23-2017, 07:47 AM
Here are my summary notes. Reflects Dubhthach observations above.

43. No clear identification of Anglo Norman Cluster
44. Viking not present in Y study, present in IDA fineStructure study


I find it interesting that neither POBI or IDA appear to have detected the genetic impact of the Normans but both did detect Norwegian Viking admixture. I guess the issue, is that the Normans, having largely Northern French origins, were probably already genetically similar to pre-1066 inhabitants of Britain and Ireland whereas Norwegians were more distinct.

My own view has always been that genetic impact of the Normans on Britain, and on Ireland to a lesser extent, is generally underestimated.

10-23-2017, 07:54 AM
I find it interesting that neither POBI or IDA appear to have detected the genetic impact of the Normans but both did detect Norwegian Viking admixture. I guess the issue, is that the Normans, having largely Northern French origins, were probably already genetically similar to pre-1066 inhabitants of Britain and Ireland whereas Norwegians were more distinct.

My own view has always been that genetic impact of the Normans on Britain, and on Ireland to a lesser extent, is generally underestimated.

I suppose its similar problem to the Anglo Saxons being similar to the Danes, hence in this case the Normans being similar with the Britons & Irish maybe.

CillKenny
10-23-2017, 08:31 AM
Very impressive note taking Gerard.

Ed made the point that geography and social structure explain differences and he suggested it was social structure that dominates in Ireland. What I have read about early Irish law was that a person only had rights in their own group. If you were sent into exile you arrived in your new place at the absolutely lowest level in society. Apart from female aristocracy few would have moved so this would have created structure by drift.

Looking at the diagrams it appeared to me that S Munster was closest to the Ballynahatty sample. Ulster seemed furthest away.

Dubhthach
10-23-2017, 08:37 AM
Thanks so much for going to the talk about the Irish DNA Atlas. I really appreciate that! Thanks for your reply to me too.

I also looked at Gerard's notes he took at the conference. It appears that he mentions 10 clusters on the island of Ireland (at least at a certain level of K). He mentions that 7 of them are Irish, or are in Ireland. Well, that appears to leave only the 3 British/Irish clusters. So, does this mean that everyone in Northern Ireland (even those of native Gaelic Irish descent) has to fall into one of those 3 British/Irish clusters? If so, this would appear to show that everyone from Northern Ireland who participated in the Irish DNA Atlas project is mixed native Gaelic Irish and British. Or, am I missing it somewhere? I have posed the same question to Gerard.

Kind Regards

No because also present in Northern Ireland is the 'Ulster' cluster which they class as 'Gaelic Irish' eg. it's part of wider Irish cluster. What appears evident in one of other maps is there is barrier to movement into NE Ulster (basically Antrim, Down, parts of Armagh). Ed for example put across perhaps that this was due to contuined gene flow from Scotland to this part of NE Ulster (eg. historic limit of province of Ulster after 600AD). However I think that misses the elephant in the room, the fact that Antrim and North Down are the most protestant part of the island of Ireland

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png/617px-Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png/986px-Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png

What we have to remember is that the Irish language survived in parts of what is now Northern Ireland into mid century, for example the upland Gaeltacht of the Tyrone/Derry border (in the Sperrins) and in the Glens of Antrim. Ergo the Ulster cluster is found throughout the nine country historic province of Ulster.

Dubhthach
10-23-2017, 08:40 AM
This implies to me that Ulster Catholics have the least ancestry from Britain of all Irish.

Which make sense given Early Modern Irish history. The vast bulk of what we now call 'Ulster' (which before 1169 was restricted to Antrim and Down due to Uí Néill conquest) never had any Cambro-Norman input. The first input that most of that territory had was in period after 1609, and obviously given the nature of the time there were clear impediments to intermarriage (language, religion, politics) which erupted in 1641 in particular.

Dubhthach
10-23-2017, 08:47 AM
I find it interesting that neither POBI or IDA appear to have detected the genetic impact of the Normans but both did detect Norwegian Viking admixture. I guess the issue, is that the Normans, having largely Northern French origins, were probably already genetically similar to pre-1066 inhabitants of Britain and Ireland whereas Norwegians were more distinct.

My own view has always been that genetic impact of the Normans on Britain, and on Ireland to a lesser extent, is generally underestimated.

There's also the fact of who do you define as 'Norman' in an Irish context, many of the major barons for example where half Welsh, and not only that alot of these men marrying Irish women within the first two generations after 1169. That and alot of the 'ordinary troops' were Welsh (thence Walsh been third most common surname in Ireland). In such a context there might not be obvious Norman input especially if you don't do Y-DNA analysis. For example we see non-trivia amounts of Haplogroup E show up in Fitzgearld and Roche etc.

cilldara
10-23-2017, 11:26 AM
I found the central Irish cluster very interesting. Especially since it goes from Dublin, Kildare, Offaly, Westmeath to Galway. Did Laois and Meath samples also make it into that group? I can't remember.

Sikeliot
10-23-2017, 12:33 PM
Where is everyone seeing these charts?

Jessie
10-23-2017, 12:44 PM
Where is everyone seeing these charts?

The people that attended the talk saw the charts. They weren't allowed to take pictures.

cilldara
10-23-2017, 12:45 PM
Where is everyone seeing these charts?

From seeing the charts at the talk yesterday.

jonathanmcg1990
10-23-2017, 02:41 PM
Here are my summary notes. Reflects Dubhthach observations above.

IDA, No Live Streaming, No Photos

6. North South Ireland Divide
7. North South Munster Divide
16. 30 Clusters in Britain
17. 10 Clusters
19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter)
20. NI-2. 53 Irish, 19 Scottish, (Dal Riada)
21. NI-3. ? Irish, ? Border (Riever?, Planter)
22. NI-3>NI-2>NI-1
27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide
28. Clear North / South Divide
32. Irish British Admixture dated to 17th Century
33. Possibly Reflects Tudor, Cromwellian, Williamite Plantations
35. 30 Irish + British Clusters, 51 European Clusters
36. Irish>British>NW France>Belgium>Germany
37. England/Danish/German Cluster, Anglo Saxon
38. Irish/NW France Cluster, Celtic
39. Norwegian Cluster, Viking
40. French Ancestry Interpolation (Nice Map)
41. European Ancestry Admixture (Chart)
45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster


Thank you for taking you time and taking notes and updating us on this project hopefully when they publish the results it will answer a few questions i have still remaining. I will write in this post some questions I have and give my opinion of my Irish hertiage based on results referring to my LivingDNA results.

First question i have and a bit of topic is the Irish traveller bit of the Irish DNA atlas completed?

My mother side is from Ulster Irish hertiage in my LivingDNA their is a clear NI-2 (Dal Riada) link as my North West Scotland 27.4%. My father side is from Ulster Scot hertiage you can clearly see NI-3 present in my livingDNA results. This through up a few questions about what POBI identified as Ulster Protestant they said the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was that but my livingDNA results indicated that the Ulster Planter cluster was Cumbria and Northumbria cluster.

In cautious mode they have grouped my Northumbria and Cumbria together. Where as South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was grouped with Ireland and North West Scotland suggesting the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland is Irish in nature.

In LivingDNA i did get some percentages in English regions they where South East England, East Anglia and Cornish suggestion i do have some heritage from 19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter).


Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster did they state what this cluster was closed too because it could mean their is an Dal Riada link North Ireland DNA and Highland Scotland is very similar. Or it could mean it is closer to Welsh DNA being that they haven't had much migration from the first settlers that settled their.

Did they mention anything about how close is any of the cluster would be to the People of the British Isles Clusters?

Norwegian Cluster comparing People of the British Isle results the Scottish highland cluster is the next highest percentage clusters with Viking imprint. This will mean that not just Ulster Irish is most similar to people in North West Scotland it means all the Irish cluster would be similar to the North West Scotland.

Finally when they are talking about Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide are they talking about a clear Ulster Scot East/ Ulster Irish West divide or Ulster Irish East/Ulster Irish West divide?

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Robert1
10-23-2017, 03:15 PM
Methinks some smartphones recorded a bit of audio, video and pictures! If so, more info may trickle in over the coming weeks.

However this news was documented, even if from notes and memory, thank you so much to everyone posting this important information!

avalon
10-23-2017, 08:07 PM
There's also the fact of who do you define as 'Norman' in an Irish context, many of the major barons for example where half Welsh, and not only that alot of these men marrying Irish women within the first two generations after 1169. That and alot of the 'ordinary troops' were Welsh (thence Walsh been third most common surname in Ireland). In such a context there might not be obvious Norman input especially if you don't do Y-DNA analysis. For example we see non-trivia amounts of Haplogroup E show up in Fitzgearld and Roche etc.

Yes, I suppose in terms of the "Normans" who invaded Ireland they were a mixed bunch - Norman lords, Welsh archers and also Flemish I have read.

I suppose given the prevalence of Walsh name in Ireland, we can assume that medieval Welsh genetic input into Ireland might have been noteworthy, Y-dna analysis of Walsh might back this up, I don't know. Key question though would have to be, how similar genetically were the Welsh and Irish at around 1000AD, or even better, pre-Viking, but really we need ancient genomes to answer that.

I still think genetic studies are underestimating "Norman" input though, you just have to look at POBI where they were happy to go with <40% Anglo-Saxon input for England but hardly any Norman genetic input which just can't be right.

kevinduffy
10-23-2017, 10:45 PM
How much British ancestry does there seem to be in Leinster, Munster and Connacht?

My guess is contrary to original assumptions, there is more British ancestry even on the west coast of Connacht than in the Ulster Catholics.

I guess we will have to wait until there is some sort of official publication to find out how much British ancestry there is in various parts of Ireland.

Saetro
10-24-2017, 12:21 AM
I still think genetic studies are underestimating "Norman" input though, you just have to look at POBI where they were happy to go with <40% Anglo-Saxon input for England but hardly any Norman genetic input which just can't be right.

My recollection is that there were two possible reasons given.
1) NW French are quite similar to the people who were in Britain before the Romans - "Celts" if you will
2) Any Scandinavian component was small and could not be distinguished from Vikings
There was a sizeable Flemish component to the Normans, as you have said. Again this would be hard to distinguish from people already in Britain, but I cannot recall what POBI said about this.

kevinduffy
10-24-2017, 02:07 AM
My recollection is that there were two possible reasons given.
1) NW French are quite similar to the people who were in Britain before the Romans - "Celts" if you will
2) Any Scandinavian component was small and could not be distinguished from Vikings
There was a sizeable Flemish component to the Normans, as you have said. Again this would be hard to distinguish from people already in Britain, but I cannot recall what POBI said about this.

I think some of the "Normans" were actually Bretons.