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fridurich
10-24-2017, 03:34 AM
Very impressive note taking Gerard.

Ed made the point that geography and social structure explain differences and he suggested it was social structure that dominates in Ireland. What I have read about early Irish law was that a person only had rights in their own group. If you were sent into exile you arrived in your new place at the absolutely lowest level in society. Apart from female aristocracy few would have moved so this would have created structure by drift.

Looking at the diagrams it appeared to me that S Munster was closest to the Ballynahatty sample. Ulster seemed furthest away.

Very interesting. Is what you are saying is Ed Gilbert said something like social structure (such as is somebody a chief/noble/king and their extended family, or is somebody from a lower class) and geography (the area that the nobles and his lower class clients or retainers lived on) cause autosomal DNA differences between different DNA clusters in Ireland through genetic drift?

So, in this scenario, since a noble and his retainers or clients stay put on the same land for a long time, (unless new land is conquered that they may move to) there HAS to be a lot of intermarriage within a small group of people, which over time, because of this isolation, and not much new gene flow into the groups, causes genetic drift. In such a situation, I would think there wouldn't be much intermarriage between the nobility and lower classes.

CannabisErectusHibernius
10-24-2017, 04:18 AM
Thanks to the conference attendees for reporting back. Not IDA related, but how was the Bradley talk about the genetic prehistory of the Atlantic coast? Any new samples mentioned, or just the Cassidy and Olaide genomes?

Heber
10-24-2017, 07:26 AM
Thanks to the conference attendees for reporting back. Not IDA related, but how was the Bradley talk about the genetic prehistory of the Atlantic coast? Any new samples mentioned, or just the Cassidy and Olaide genomes?

I live streamed the Bradley talk but did not save it.
Very interesting overview of progress to date in Irish and Atlantic Genomes.
New Mesolithic sample which is positioned extreme north on the Novembre PCA chart.
Many more ancient DNA samples in the pipeline from very interesting locations.
Used the Koch Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages chart to explain the Portugal Beaker samples and distribution on Indo European and Non Indo European languages (Basque).
Supports the Gimbutas model of Indo European expansion.

https://pin.it/pjm4dg7

CillKenny
10-24-2017, 08:12 AM
Fridurich, there was a class system within the tuath (with people normally falling down the social structure with the 3 generation rule) but as you say there would still be a client relationship and a complex set of attendant rights and obligations that tied people in to their particular tuath. That and distance, with some natural boundaries, would do it. Pat

Heber
10-24-2017, 11:14 AM
Here are my summary notes from the excellent lecture and associated paper.
Genomics insights into the history of the Irish Travellers
Gianpiero Cavalleri, RCSI

Gianpiero is Associate Professor of Human Genetics at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. The Irish Travellers are a population with a history of nomadism; consanguineous unions are common and they are socially isolated from the surrounding, ‘settled’ Irish people. Previous work suggests a common Irish origin between the settled and the Traveller populations. What is not known, however, is the extent of population structure within the Irish Travellers and the time of divergence from the general Irish population. This talk will discuss how genetic data can shed light on these questions, with a presentation of results from recent analysis of large genetic datasets generated from Irish Travellers, European Roma, settled Irish, British and European or world-wide individuals.

1. No streaming, Photos allowed
Genomic insights into the population structure and history of the Irish Travellers (Gilbert)
1. By studying many genetic variants in combination, we can infer population structure (Novembre)
2. Fine-scale population structure, The People of the British Isles (Leslie)
3. Analysis of ancient and modern DNA can Inform on ancient demographic events (Haak)
4. Population transformations in Europe (Haak)
5. Ancient Irish DNA (Cassidy)
6. The Irish DNA Atlas (Gilbert)
7. DNA cohort of individuals with regional Irish Ancestry
8. Eight grandparents born within 50 km
9. Generated SNP array genotypes
10. 600,000 SNPs
11. 192 Individuals genotypes
12. 242 individuals recruited
13. Irish Traveller DNA (Gilbert)
14. Clustering of 34 Irish Travellers, 300 Settled Irish, and 828 British by fineStructure.
15. Ancestry profiles of the Irish Travellers, and neighbouring European populations by ADMIXTURE.
16. Comparison between the Irish Travellers, the settled Irish, and the European Roma.
17. Extent of haplotype sharing between the settled Irish and the Irish Travellers, and between the two groups of Irish Travellers.
18. Extent of autozygosity in the Irish Travellers, settled Irish, select world-wide populations, and the European Roma.
19. Chart comparing longevity of Settled (higher) and Traveller (lower) populations
20. 10 years lower female, 15 years lower male
21. Study recruitment, 1963 Traveller Report + Flynn
22. Results: Travellers are very much of Irish Ancestry
23. Results: Travellers share lots of recent Ancestry within and across clusters
24. Results: Genetic structure within the Traveller community corelated with language (Shelta, Gammon, Cant)
25. Results: Comparisons to Atlas Data suggest Ancestry of Clusters influenced by traditional traveling routes
26. Results: Genetic distance between Settled Irish and Travellers comparable to Irish:French
27. Results: Travellers have been acting as a community for a considerable period of time
28. Results: Travellers have a relatively high level of consanguity
29. March 1st 2017: Irish Government recognizes Travellers as “a people within our people”
30. Extend project and NGS samples if funding available.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep42187

Saetro
10-25-2017, 02:10 AM
I think some of the "Normans" were actually Bretons.

Brittany is the POBI's "NW France" source, is it not?
It certainly was shown as such on a map earlier in this thread.
So, you are right, of course Norman Bretons would disappear.

TigerMW
10-25-2017, 02:45 AM
Yes, I suppose in terms of the "Normans" who invaded Ireland they were a mixed bunch - Norman lords, Welsh archers and also Flemish I have read.

I suppose given the prevalence of Walsh name in Ireland, we can assume that medieval Welsh genetic input into Ireland might have been noteworthy, Y-dna analysis of Walsh might back this up, I don't know. Key question though would have to be, how similar genetically were the Welsh and Irish at around 1000AD, or even better, pre-Viking, but really we need ancient genomes to answer that.

I still think genetic studies are underestimating "Norman" input though, you just have to look at POBI where they were happy to go with <40% Anglo-Saxon input for England but hardly any Norman genetic input which just can't be right.
I am a Walsh and feel compelled to respond but I have read a lot and looked at Y DNA as much as I could. Unfortunately, I think few firm conclusions can be reached at this point.

Here is our surname project. It is all over the board haplogroup-wise.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/walsh?iframe=yresults

I’m in R1b lineage 11, which turns out to be R1b-P312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513>S6365>CTS11744/L705.

Our lineage 11 is a bit of microcosm of the challenges.

I conclude the following, though.

1. The Cambro-Normans who conquered most of Ireland circa 1170 AD, were a mix of Welsh (Cambria) and Normans.
2. These Normans were already a mix of old Norsemen for whom Normandy was named, and their Flemish, Breton and Gaulish allies. This compounds the issues particularly given that Bretons migh be old Britons from England who left when the Anglo-Saxons came. Of course the Welsh may be old Briton too. There has probably even been some R1b-L21 in Scandinavia probably since the Bronze Age. The Flemish probably have some mix of Germanic peoples and old Celts from the Low Countries.
3. Most Y DNA from Normandy today is R1b-L21, similar to Bretagne.
4. Figuring out Norman Y DNA is next to impossible.

My little subclade seems to fit in the Wales scenario I have good matches (1200 ybp) who are current Welsh residents. My MDKA said he was of Walsh of the Mountain and parish was right there. This clan supposedly had knight Philip Walsh who came unde FitzStephen, a “dear uncle”, as the founder. We are related to the Barrett’s of whom was a “brother” of a Walynus who was supposed to be either under FitzStephen or Le Gros.

Our subclade would seem to be Welsh but we have a Frenchman, Bergeron, and to confound us further, a Swede from Ostergotland.

fridurich
10-25-2017, 03:35 AM
Fridurich, there was a class system within the tuath (with people normally falling down the social structure with the 3 generation rule) but as you say there would still be a client relationship and a complex set of attendant rights and obligations that tied people in to their particular tuath. That and distance, with some natural boundaries, would do it. Pat

Pat, thanks for your response. That was really interesting when you mention people normally falling down the social structure with the three generation rule. Sounds like you are referring to when men fell out of the derbfine of their kinsmen the chief, because they were one generation (4) too far away from him to remain in it and even have hope of being the tanist , even though their dad (if living) would still be in the derbfine.

So, when men fell out of the derbfine, would you say they automatically become just an ordinary person, or have low class status (but for sure not being in the nobility anymore). If that's the case, seems like they would be free to intermarry with the women of the lower class, which over a long period of time, I would think could cause a lot of the lower class to be blood related to the chief.

Now, I have heard something like a lot of times when men fell out of the derbfine, that they took on a new surname. (And I assume had a new chief with the new surname and started a new derbfine with the new surname.)

Kind Regards

CillKenny
10-25-2017, 08:08 AM
Fridurich, probably a good source is Bart Jaski Early Irish kingship and succession. There seemed to be many different strata and again the 3 generation rule applied. It was earlier 4 generations but as the population grew that became unworkable. The arrival of more permanent surname conventions broke with that so it is more traceable now but it held in aspic the social structure of 1200AD without any notion of nobility across the whole surname group as probably applied before that. Pat

avalon
10-25-2017, 03:24 PM
I am a Walsh and feel compelled to respond but I have read a lot and looked at Y DNA as much as I could. Unfortunately, I think few firm conclusions can be reached at this point.

Here is our surname project. It is all over the board haplogroup-wise.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/walsh?iframe=yresults

I’m in R1b lineage 11, which turns out to be R1b-P312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513>S6365>CTS11744/L705.

Our lineage 11 is a bit of microcosm of the challenges.

I conclude the following, though.

1. The Cambro-Normans who conquered most of Ireland circa 1170 AD, were a mix of Welsh (Cambria) and Normans.
2. These Normans were already a mix of old Norsemen for whom Normandy was named, and their Flemish, Breton and Gaulish allies. This compounds the issues particularly given that Bretons migh be old Britons from England who left when the Anglo-Saxons came. Of course the Welsh may be old Briton too. There has probably even been some R1b-L21 in Scandinavia probably since the Bronze Age. The Flemish probably have some mix of Germanic peoples and old Celts from the Low Countries.
3. Most Y DNA from Normandy today is R1b-L21, similar to Bretagne.
4. Figuring out Norman Y DNA is next to impossible.

My little subclade seems to fit in the Wales scenario I have good matches (1200 ybp) who are current Welsh residents. My MDKA said he was of Walsh of the Mountain and parish was right there. This clan supposedly had knight Philip Walsh who came unde FitzStephen, a “dear uncle”, as the founder. We are related to the Barrett’s of whom was a “brother” of a Walynus who was supposed to be either under FitzStephen or Le Gros.

Our subclade would seem to be Welsh but we have a Frenchman, Bergeron, and to confound us further, a Swede from Ostergotland.

Yes, the Walsh surname does appear to be a mixture of haplogroups based on ftdna. Probably fair to say that some of these such R1a, U106 and I1 don't have a native Welsh origin though.

In the context of Wales in 1170, the "Normans" had already been in South Wales for 100 years, so in certain places, particularly in and around the Norman castles you had a "Marcher" or Cambro-Norman type society, with associated intermarriage, etc, so the definition of "Welsh" may have been different to a century before, and new haplogroups may also have arrived in Wales during this period that then went on to Ireland post 1170.

Really, like others have said, we need good ancient genome data for Ireland and Wales from the pre-Viking period and from the pre-Norman period to use as a baseline and might help answer some of these questions.

TigerMW
10-25-2017, 04:59 PM
Yes, the Walsh surname does appear to be a mixture of haplogroups based on ftdna. Probably fair to say that some of these such R1a, U106 and I1 don't have a native Welsh origin though.

In the context of Wales in 1170, the "Normans" had already been in South Wales for 100 years, so in certain places, particularly in and around the Norman castles you had a "Marcher" or Cambro-Norman type society, with associated intermarriage, etc, so the definition of "Welsh" may have been different to a century before, and new haplogroups may also have arrived in Wales during this period that then went on to Ireland post 1170.

Really, like others have said, we need good ancient genome data for Ireland and Wales from the pre-Viking period and from the pre-Norman period to use as a baseline and might help answer some of these questions.

Flemish folks were definitely involved and the Old Welsh reportedly didn’t like them. The original Norman incursion was led by Robert Fitzhamon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Knights_of_Glamorgan

Notice Fleming. I have a surname Fleming as a lineage in my genealogical records. It seems like we all like to hang around together. The given name Edmund is very common in my Walsh lineage and is said to have come because there were several inter-marriages with the Butlers in Leinster and there was a prominent Edmund Butler. These must not be the same as the L226 Butlers though.

jbarry6899
10-25-2017, 05:17 PM
Flemish folks were definitely involved and the Old Welsh reportedly didn’t like them. The original Norman incursion was led by Robert Fitzhamon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Knights_of_Glamorgan

Notice Fleming. I have a surname Fleming as a lineage in my genealogical records. It seems like we all like to hang around together. The given name Edmund is very common in my Walsh lineage and is said to have come because there were several inter-marriages with the Butlers in Leinster and there was a prominent Edmund Butler. These must not be the same as the L226 Butlers though.

Though traditionally considered to be Anglo-Norman, the Barrys were almost certainly Flemish in origin. Within several generations after their arrival in Ireland, they had intermarried extensively with Irish women, notably McCarthys as well as others, so that the modern Barrys, even those living in Ireland, have no clear Anglo-Norman/Flemish admixture. Extensive BigY testing suggests that the Flemish Barrys were in a subclade of U152 that is comparatively rare in ireland, but found more frequently in Flanders.

Pascal C
10-26-2017, 06:42 AM
I conclude the following, though.

1. The Cambro-Normans who conquered most of Ireland circa 1170 AD, were a mix of Welsh (Cambria) and Normans.
2. These Normans were already a mix of old Norsemen for whom Normandy was named, and their Flemish, Breton and Gaulish allies. This compounds the issues particularly given that Bretons migh be old Britons from England who left when the Anglo-Saxons came. Of course the Welsh may be old Briton too. There has probably even been some R1b-L21 in Scandinavia probably since the Bronze Age. The Flemish probably have some mix of Germanic peoples and old Celts from the Low Countries.
3. Most Y DNA from Normandy today is R1b-L21, similar to Bretagne.
4. Figuring out Norman Y DNA is next to impossible.

My little subclade seems to fit in the Wales scenario I have good matches (1200 ybp) who are current Welsh residents. My MDKA said he was of Walsh of the Mountain and parish was right there. This clan supposedly had knight Philip Walsh who came unde FitzStephen, a “dear uncle”, as the founder. We are related to the Barrett’s of whom was a “brother” of a Walynus who was supposed to be either under FitzStephen or Le Gros.

Our subclade would seem to be Welsh but we have a Frenchman, Bergeron, and to confound us further, a Swede from Ostergotland.

Wasn't Walsh or the contemporary version, Le Waleys or whatever, supposed to be the most commonly adopted surname of Irish who integrated with the Normans, Bretons, Gauls, Franks, Aquitani, Flemish, Anglo Saxon, Welsh, Hiberno-Scandinavian, Anglo Danish and whatever else may have made up the Angevin Empire's "English" in Ireland?

Dubhthach
10-26-2017, 11:39 AM
Wasn't Walsh or the contemporary version, Le Waleys or whatever, supposed to be the most commonly adopted surname of Irish who integrated with the Normans, Bretons, Gauls, Franks, Aquitani, Flemish, Anglo Saxon, Welsh, Hiberno-Scandinavian, Anglo Danish and whatever else may have made up the Angevin Empire's "English" in Ireland?

Nope, the two surnames used in that regarded were:



de ÍRLEONT—XI—de Yrlond, de Yrlonde, Dirland, de Irland, Ireland; Norman 'de Irland,' i.e., from Ireland, a local descriptive surname given in England to an early emigrant from Ireland. Compare with de Íréis above The returned exile in this case also settled in Co. Kilkenny. The late Most Rev. John Ireland, D.D., Archbishop of St. Paul's, Min., was the best-known bearer of the name and an illustrious representative of this family.



de ÍRÉIS—XII—de Ires, Irish; Norman 'le Ireis,' i.e., the Irishman, a descriptive name given in England to an early emigrant from Ireland; the Christian names in the Hundred Rolls show, however, that the emigrant was of Norman extraction. The exile, or one of his descendants, brought back the surname to Kilkenny, where, however, it has always been rare.

Thence the modern surnames of 'Ireland' and 'Irish', both are rare surnames today. 'Irish' more so, if we look in the 1911 census there was 545 people with surname 'Ireland' and 49 with surname 'Irish' in Ireland.

Walsh as a surname in Ireland is connected to fact that most of the men of arms during the invasion and a large section of settlers within the colony were derived from Norman Wales. Similarly we see the surname 'English' in Ireland (must be fun growing up with that surname in Ireland!) If you look at the distubution map of Griffith survey, it was obviously a name heavily linked to settlement in the Earldom of Ormond and Desmond, with high concentration in South Tippeary and into East Limerick.

MacUalraig
10-26-2017, 12:02 PM
Well, consider that your top runner is a Britton... (though married now) :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fionnuala_McCormack

Dubhthach
10-26-2017, 12:28 PM
Fridurich, probably a good source is Bart Jaski Early Irish kingship and succession. There seemed to be many different strata and again the 3 generation rule applied. It was earlier 4 generations but as the population grew that became unworkable. The arrival of more permanent surname conventions broke with that so it is more traceable now but it held in aspic the social structure of 1200AD without any notion of nobility across the whole surname group as probably applied before that. Pat

What should be remember though is that within a Lordship that you often would get multiple segments who might themselves be related to each other within 4 generations (eg. they might have last shared ancestry 6-8 generations before), who however rotated the 'Lordship' between each line. What this meant was that there was always someone within each segment who could trace to previous Lord within the last three-four generations.

We see this with for example the Burkes of Mayo who were gaelicised Normans and who rotated the Lordship of the Lower MacWilliam between them in each turn. Sometimes of course you would get a situation (specifically form 1300 onwards) where a lineage would spilt as two segments of same surname can to conflict. A good example of this is the spiltting of the central O'Connor lordship in Connacht into warring 'Donn' (Don eg. Brown) and 'Rua' (Roe eg. Rua) lordships. Thus leading to the O'Connors becoming unimportant from the mid 15th century onwards (O'Connor Sligo branch had spilt earlier)

What should be remember especially during the earlier period is that the surname was reserved to only those who were either the Lord (and his immediate family) or who could claim the lordship via election. Generally for lines that fell out of succession they either went and formed their own seperate lordship (eg. O'Connor Sligo) or they adapted a different surname which reflect their own lineage succession group (eg. managing the 'corporate assets' of the lineage such as estates etc.) A good example of this is case of surname McManus in both of it's independent occurences. The McManus family of Connacht are a branch of the O'Connor's (Maghnus Ua Conchobair) who don't have claim to title. Over time they are known as the 'Clann Maghnus Ua Conchobhair' (the Children of Maghnus Conchobhair) and eventually 'Clann Maghnus' (Children of Maghnus) and finally Mac Maghnuis. So basically an example of a 'cadet surname' that formed due to exclusion from the succession of the overall Lordship.

Having founded their own 'cadet branch' they could than practise on a minature scale the same processes of succession when it came to who was the head of their lineage (eg. who was lord of Tír Tuathail).

What should also be remember is that often former lineages who had been dispossessed of lordship/land via either conquest or been edged out by powerful overlords often hung on by becoming 'ecclesiastical lineages' eg. they held hereditary titles tied to church land (eg. as Comhra or airchinneach). In that scenario the lineage would persist as technically tenants to Church holding a ecclesiastical office role (not involving taking full holy orders etc). This option was also open to minor branches of a ruling lineage

In case of Clare, McInerney is a really good example of this. This family is a branch of the McNamara's and represent a segment of lineage that no longer could claim the lordship ruled by the McNamara family. As a result they became 'hereditary custodians' of various church properties as 'Airchinneach' (literally 'head of lineage').

Luke McInerty has written extensively on this see:
https://www.academia.edu/2346450/Survey_of_the_McInerney_sept_of_Thomond_-_Part_I
https://www.academia.edu/2383770/Survey_of_the_McInerney_sept_of_Thomond_-_Part_II

He's also written a book on ecclesiastical lineages in Clare
'Clerical and Learned Lineages of Medieval Co. Clare'
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/books/2014/medieval-co-clare/

Of course also every major lordship had hereditery positions within it such as 'Judge' (Brehon), Medicine etc. with specific lineages performing these tasks having their own landed estates.

Pascal C
10-26-2017, 02:50 PM
Nope, the two surnames used in that regarded were:





Thence the modern surnames of 'Ireland' and 'Irish', both are rare surnames today. 'Irish' more so, if we look in the 1911 census there was 545 people with surname 'Ireland' and 49 with surname 'Irish' in Ireland.

Walsh as a surname in Ireland is connected to fact that most of the men of arms during the invasion and a large section of settlers within the colony were derived from Norman Wales. Similarly we see the surname 'English' in Ireland (must be fun growing up with that surname in Ireland!) If you look at the distubution map of Griffith survey, it was obviously a name heavily linked to settlement in the Earldom of Ormond and Desmond, with high concentration in South Tippeary and into East Limerick.

Must be a faulty recollection, I thought I had read that in a book but a long time back. I'll have to see if I can find it later.
I know that Welsh accompanied the Normans. I think the Four Masters wrote that the Irish regarded the Welsh archers as the most dangerous of the Norman enemies in battle, although many more were probably simple plows pushers rather than soldiers in the same way the Normans brought folks from all over Norman and Angevin areas to Pembroke.

EDIT: A quick google check for the related surname Breathnach, mentions there were many folks from Cumbria in the Earl of Ulster's settlement. I wonder if they disappear somewhat in the British Irish clusters or are in the Irish Ulster cluster.

Saetro
10-26-2017, 07:32 PM
Similarly we see the surname 'English' in Ireland (must be fun growing up with that surname in Ireland!)

Somewhat off topic, but those origin names become strange when they move back to the country they name.
Like Sir Walter Scott in Scotland.
And can be misleading like the great Scottish patriot Wallace (=Welsh) who was from the Celtic speaking Galloway, and not from the area currently called Wales.

When I had just begun working in England, people heard my different speech and often asked where I came from.
So when a shopkeeper asked me "are you English?" repeatedly, it took me a while to understand that he thought I looked like another customer and was asking if I had his surname. I had never suspected that someone in England would be surnamed "English". They must have come from somewhere else.

Had wondered about the surname "Walsh" in Ireland. Thanks to all for clarifying this.

fridurich
10-27-2017, 02:35 AM
What should be remember though is that within a Lordship that you often would get multiple segments who might themselves be related to each other within 4 generations (eg. they might have last shared ancestry 6-8 generations before), who however rotated the 'Lordship' between each line. What this meant was that there was always someone within each segment who could trace to previous Lord within the last three-four generations.

We see this with for example the Burkes of Mayo who were gaelicised Normans and who rotated the Lordship of the Lower MacWilliam between them in each turn. Sometimes of course you would get a situation (specifically form 1300 onwards) where a lineage would spilt as two segments of same surname can to conflict. A good example of this is the spiltting of the central O'Connor lordship in Connacht into warring 'Donn' (Don eg. Brown) and 'Rua' (Roe eg. Rua) lordships. Thus leading to the O'Connors becoming unimportant from the mid 15th century onwards (O'Connor Sligo branch had spilt earlier)

What should be remember especially during the earlier period is that the surname was reserved to only those who were either the Lord (and his immediate family) or who could claim the lordship via election. Generally for lines that fell out of succession they either went and formed their own seperate lordship (eg. O'Connor Sligo) or they adapted a different surname which reflect their own lineage succession group (eg. managing the 'corporate assets' of the lineage such as estates etc.) A good example of this is case of surname McManus in both of it's independent occurences. The McManus family of Connacht are a branch of the O'Connor's (Maghnus Ua Conchobair) who don't have claim to title. Over time they are known as the 'Clann Maghnus Ua Conchobhair' (the Children of Maghnus Conchobhair) and eventually 'Clann Maghnus' (Children of Maghnus) and finally Mac Maghnuis. So basically an example of a 'cadet surname' that formed due to exclusion from the succession of the overall Lordship.

Having founded their own 'cadet branch' they could than practise on a minature scale the same processes of succession when it came to who was the head of their lineage (eg. who was lord of Tír Tuathail).

What should also be remember is that often former lineages who had been dispossessed of lordship/land via either conquest or been edged out by powerful overlords often hung on by becoming 'ecclesiastical lineages' eg. they held hereditary titles tied to church land (eg. as Comhra or airchinneach). In that scenario the lineage would persist as technically tenants to Church holding a ecclesiastical office role (not involving taking full holy orders etc). This option was also open to minor branches of a ruling lineage

In case of Clare, McInerney is a really good example of this. This family is a branch of the McNamara's and represent a segment of lineage that no longer could claim the lordship ruled by the McNamara family. As a result they became 'hereditary custodians' of various church properties as 'Airchinneach' (literally 'head of lineage').

Luke McInerty has written extensively on this see:
https://www.academia.edu/2346450/Survey_of_the_McInerney_sept_of_Thomond_-_Part_I
https://www.academia.edu/2383770/Survey_of_the_McInerney_sept_of_Thomond_-_Part_II

He's also written a book on ecclesiastical lineages in Clare
'Clerical and Learned Lineages of Medieval Co. Clare'
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/books/2014/medieval-co-clare/

Of course also every major lordship had hereditery positions within it such as 'Judge' (Brehon), Medicine etc. with specific lineages performing these tasks having their own landed estates.

Dubhthach, that was all very interesting. When you say "What should be remember especially during the earlier period is that the surname was reserved to only those who were either the Lord (and his immediate family) or who could claim the lordship via election.", does that mean that the only ones who had surnames, especially at an earlier time, were the chief and his immediate family and all of the male members of the derbfine that the chief was in? (With the derbfine being direct male line descendants from a common great grandfather.)

If I understand you right, those who fell out of the derbfine sometimes formed their own derbfine and I assume all members of the new one could use the same new surname, in other instances those who fell out of the derbfine could form their own rule over territory and keep their surname, and sometimes those lineages who were dispossessed of land could hold an ecclesiastical office role and have a surname. Not to mention those such as bards, doctors, etc. who had their own surnames.

So, this bring up the question, did the majority of the Irish not have fixed hereditary surnames let's say in period from 10th Century A.D. until the 16th century A.D.? Seems like Edward MacLysaght said something like many or most of the lower classes in Ireland didn't have fixed hereditary surnames until the 16th or 17th Century A.D., and that they made up a considerable portion of the Irish population. I have his book somewhere.

Kind Regards

kevinduffy
10-27-2017, 11:52 AM
Most Y DNA from Normandy today is R1b-L21

Is there any research backing this up?

jonathanmcg1990
10-27-2017, 01:48 PM
EDIT: A quick google check for the related surname Breathnach, mentions there were many folks from Cumbria in the Earl of Ulster's settlement. I wonder if they disappear somewhat in the British Irish clusters or are in the Irish Ulster cluster.

Yes very interesting in livingDNA i come up as 17% Cumbria which was a surprise as i am half Ulster Scot and half Ulster Irish hertiage.

Most common surnames in Cumberland at the time of the United Kingdom Census of 1881 by order of incidence:

Graham
Bell
Wilson
Thompson
Armstrong
Smith
Robinson
Hodgson
Johnston
Brown

All this surnames are common in Northern Ireland apart from Hodgson.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Pascal C
10-28-2017, 07:28 PM
Yes very interesting in livingDNA i come up as 17% Cumbria which was a surprise as i am half Ulster Scot and half Ulster Irish hertiage.

Most common surnames in Cumberland at the time of the United Kingdom Census of 1881 by order of incidence:

Graham
Bell
Wilson
Thompson
Armstrong
Smith
Robinson
Hodgson
Johnston
Brown

All this surnames are common in Northern Ireland apart from Hodgson.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

My guess is most of those names if found in Ulster from Britain and not Anglicizations would be from among planters rather than any earlier Old English/Norman group that was probably Gaelicized after the end of the earldom.
Many of those are common Scot names as well and the proximity of Cumbria to Scotland and movements there as well as Ulster immigration from northern England could also account for Cumbrian ancestry.

Pascal C
10-28-2017, 07:37 PM
Somewhat off topic, but those origin names become strange when they move back to the country they name.
Like Sir Walter Scott in Scotland.
And can be misleading like the great Scottish patriot Wallace (=Welsh) who was from the Celtic speaking Galloway, and not from the area currently called Wales.

When I had just begun working in England, people heard my different speech and often asked where I came from.
So when a shopkeeper asked me "are you English?" repeatedly, it took me a while to understand that he thought I looked like another customer and was asking if I had his surname. I had never suspected that someone in England would be surnamed "English". They must have come from somewhere else.

Had wondered about the surname "Walsh" in Ireland. Thanks to all for clarifying this.

Hmmm I thought Scott a common native Scottish name like Wallace or Fleming used to differentiate the subgroups of Scots.

Saetro
10-28-2017, 08:10 PM
Yes very interesting in livingDNA i come up as 17% Cumbria which was a surprise as i am half Ulster Scot and half Ulster Irish hertiage.

Most common surnames in Cumberland at the time of the United Kingdom Census of 1881 by order of incidence:

Graham
Bell
Wilson
Thompson
Armstrong
Smith
Robinson
Hodgson
Johnston
Brown

All this surnames are common in Northern Ireland apart from Hodgson.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

"Graham" is well known as a Scottish Borders name and the clan was specifically targeted to be moved to Ireland in the Plantations. (Although only part moved.)
"Armstrong" also frequent in Borders and also involved in Plantations.

kevinduffy
10-28-2017, 10:30 PM
"Graham" is well known as a Scottish Borders name and the clan was specifically targeted to be moved to Ireland in the Plantations. (Although only part moved.)
"Armstrong" also frequent in Borders and also involved in Plantations.

Were the Grahams and the Armstrongs Gaelic or did they belong to some other group?

fridurich
10-28-2017, 11:48 PM
Were the Grahams and the Armstrongs Gaelic or did they belong to some other group?

From all I have read, the Grahams and Armstrongs were usually Scottish Lowland and/or Scottish/English Border Reiver familys. I have George McDonald Fraser's book "The Steel Bonnets" where he also shows a map of the Reiver clans. Armstrongs were on both sides of the border, but I think the majority of people who have the Armstrong surname are of Scottish descent.

However, recently I have read that Graham can be an anglicization, or should I say scoticization of O'Gormley. Here, close to the left edge of the graphic, we see some S603 (I'm also S603.) Grahams who are close to some MacNally/McAnallys on the Big Tree

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2344

Also, I have read where sometimes Armstrong is an anglicization of a Gaelic Irish surname. I can't remember the Irish surname though.

Kind Regards

Pascal C
10-29-2017, 03:38 PM
From all I have read, the Grahams and Armstrongs were usually Scottish Lowland and/or Scottish/English Border Reiver familys. I have George McDonald Fraser's book "The Steel Bonnets" where he also shows a map of the Reiver clans. Armstrongs were on both sides of the border, but I think the majority of people who have the Armstrong surname are of Scottish descent.

However, recently I have read that Graham can be an anglicization, or should I say scoticization of O'Gormley. Here, close to the left edge of the graphic, we see some S603 (I'm also S603.) Grahams who are close to some MacNally/McAnallys on the Big Tree

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2344

Also, I have read where sometimes Armstrong is an anglicization of a Gaelic Irish surname. I can't remember the Irish surname though.

Kind Regards

I've also heard Armstrong was used for O'Lavery

sktibo
10-29-2017, 07:58 PM
Can somebody remind me as to when the published data might be released?
Thank you

fridurich
10-30-2017, 04:05 AM
I've also heard Armstrong was used for O'Lavery

You are absolutely right! There is an interesting link below that mentions Armstrong as an anglicized surname for Lavery. It also said that Lowry or Lowery was a form of Lavery.

https://www.myheritageimages.com/Z/storage/site128052321/files/00/00/92/000092_65016606mfc80645m98n1x.pdf

Also, it seems like the Gaelic name Trainor (don't know for sure if it was O'Trainor or MacTrainor at first.) was sometimes anglicized to Armstrong.

Kind Regards

fridurich
10-30-2017, 04:34 AM
Thank you for taking you time and taking notes and updating us on this project hopefully when they publish the results it will answer a few questions i have still remaining. I will write in this post some questions I have and give my opinion of my Irish hertiage based on results referring to my LivingDNA results.

First question i have and a bit of topic is the Irish traveller bit of the Irish DNA atlas completed?

My mother side is from Ulster Irish hertiage in my LivingDNA their is a clear NI-2 (Dal Riada) link as my North West Scotland 27.4%. My father side is from Ulster Scot hertiage you can clearly see NI-3 present in my livingDNA results. This through up a few questions about what POBI identified as Ulster Protestant they said the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was that but my livingDNA results indicated that the Ulster Planter cluster was Cumbria and Northumbria cluster.

In cautious mode they have grouped my Northumbria and Cumbria together. Where as South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was grouped with Ireland and North West Scotland suggesting the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland is Irish in nature.

In LivingDNA i did get some percentages in English regions they where South East England, East Anglia and Cornish suggestion i do have some heritage from 19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter).


Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster did they state what this cluster was closed too because it could mean their is an Dal Riada link North Ireland DNA and Highland Scotland is very similar. Or it could mean it is closer to Welsh DNA being that they haven't had much migration from the first settlers that settled their.

Did they mention anything about how close is any of the cluster would be to the People of the British Isles Clusters?

Norwegian Cluster comparing People of the British Isle results the Scottish highland cluster is the next highest percentage clusters with Viking imprint. This will mean that not just Ulster Irish is most similar to people in North West Scotland it means all the Irish cluster would be similar to the North West Scotland.

Finally when they are talking about Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide are they talking about a clear Ulster Scot East/ Ulster Irish West divide or Ulster Irish East/Ulster Irish West divide?

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Jonathan, you ask some good questions. I hope some of the experts here are able to answer most or all of your questions. Regarding the POBI maps, they used green triangles to show N. Ireland/W. Scotland, which must be the Gaelic Northern Irish/Gaelic Scottish Highlands/Western Isles cluster. The yellow circles are N. Ireland/South Scotland, so I believe these represent the Planters who were Protestant for the most part. They have some yellow circles in Cumbria and Northumbria also.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-genetic-map-of-british-population.html

Interesting thing is on their tree hierarchy of relatedness they have the Gaelic Northern Irish/Scottish Highlanders/Isles men as closet to the Planters than any other cluster in the POBI project at that level of K. Of course they didn't have as many Irish/N. Irish samples as the Irish DNA Atlas.

So, is LivingDNA pretty accurate on its assessments of which parts of Britain and Ireland you get ancestry from?

I wish you the best on your family history quests!

Kind Regards

Heber
11-24-2017, 02:06 PM
It appears the “final results” will be presented at Genetic Genealogy Ireland in Belfast on feb 17th 2018.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/11/ggi-belfast-our-first-event-for-2018.html

I will try to attend and report back. Hopefully the paper will be published by then.

rozenfeld
11-24-2017, 06:43 PM
One of the participants of this study gave a very short talk in Dublin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo . His part starts around 19:34, however at first he goes over basics of DNA research. The part about Irish DNA Atlas starts at 24:00 . I am sure that most of what he said is already known to you, but may be there is something interesting in it.

alan
11-24-2017, 07:49 PM
One of the participants of this study gave a very short talk in Dublin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo . His part starts around 19:34, however at first he goes over basics of DNA research. The part about Irish DNA Atlas starts at 24:00 . I am sure that most of what he said is already known to you, but may be there is something interesting in it.

It’s interesting that a significant chunk of autosomal DNA came in the Viking age from a population source in sndy western Norway - the very area the Norse Viking cake from. I always thought that while than the yDNA impact was small that it was hard to believe the Vikings didn’t leave a significant genetic impact. Otherwise the closest continental similarity being with the Bretons was a virtual certainty so no surprise there! I will make a prediction. I think if we ever get DNA from the Iron Age Gauls they will more closely resemble isles Celts than the populations in the area today. Here is a question - who do the isles Celts most resemble in autosomal DNA in terms of continental Europe other the Bretons. My hunch is Normandy.

Pascal C
11-24-2017, 09:13 PM
Obviously quite a bit of that Norwegian ancestry he speaks about came via the Hebrides

Since you said "isles Celts" rather than the present day folk, how about Pays de la Loire, Alan? Likely a lot less Scandinavian and Germans I'd guess.

Dubhthach
11-24-2017, 09:20 PM
I do wonder though how good modern West Norse are as a proxy for Vikings. In general like with PoBI I am somewhat concerned that lack of baseline ancient DNA results are gonna lead to some 'funky press reporting' when the paper is finally released. Ideally we need the following:
1. Baseline early medieval aDNA samples from Ireland (which can be compared with Iron age British and Anglo-Saxon period english)
2. Baseline late Iron age/Viking period Norse samples from Scandinavia
3. Any other aDNA from late Roman/Early medieval Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands even Spain) -- so as to acts as a comparison.
4. Bronze age/Early Iron age (pre-Roman period) from any of the above geographic regions.

Modern continental populations have undergone genetic drift just like insular one's. ergo there is built in problem with using modern European populations to determine admixture event in Ireland, particulary as they generate these European clusters in a 'pool of samples' which explicitly excludes the irish samples. (this was same issue with PoBI study).

fridurich
11-25-2017, 12:37 AM
One of the participants of this study gave a very short talk in Dublin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo . His part starts around 19:34, however at first he goes over basics of DNA research. The part about Irish DNA Atlas starts at 24:00 . I am sure that most of what he said is already known to you, but may be there is something interesting in it.

Thanks, this was very interesting!

Some points I noticed:

1. At about 26:45 Ed Gilbert mentions there are slight differences between all of the different clusters on the Island of Ireland. So, I would say they use software (perhaps with other means) to comb out enough differences between them so that we can see different clusters. Seems like the different clusters must not be radically different from each other to start with.

2. At about 26:55, Ed mentions subsets of individuals who appear to be half Irish and half British. So, this must be the 3 British/Irish Northern Ireland clusters mentioned in Heber's notes. Ed says the admixture took place some time in the 17th or 18th centuries, and he mentions the Ulster Plantations. So, this shoots down the beloved notion by many, including some writers on the Ulster Scots that there was very little, or no, intermarriage between the Gaelic Irish natives and the incoming Planters.

3. At about 27:42, he mentions that the region/country closest autosomal DNA wise to the Irish is Brittany. This differs from the Irish DNA Atlas PCA chart shown in this thread some time back that showed the country most closely related to the Irish autosomal DNA wise was Scotland. However, seems like Ed did mention the people of Brittany were genetically related to the people of Wales, Cornwall, and Scotland.

4. At about 28:08, Ed mentions that a significant part of the Irish genome looks rather Norwegian (from the west coast of Norway, where some of the Vikings came from). At about 28:36. he mentions that Norwegian ancestry is spread throughout Ireland. So, this is in direct contrast with what has been said for at least several years, that the Viking genetic input in Ireland was very little.

A good point Dubhthach mentioned is, because of drift, the autosomal DNA of modern Norwegians could be different than those of the Viking period. Yet, according to Ed, a significant portion of the Irish genome appears Norwegian, so, if this genetic closeness is not due to Viking input, how did it get there? Could it be that the best we can say is that a significant portion of the Irish genome appears to resemble MODERN Norwegians who live on the west coast of Norway? Some interesting food for thought. I would love to hear Ed Gilbert questioned on if he thinks genetic drift could cause modern Norwegians to not be a good proxy sample for Viking DNA.

I would love to hear others opinions on what Ed Gilbert said in that video.

Kind Regards

alan
11-25-2017, 12:38 AM
I do wonder though how good modern West Norse are as a proxy for Vikings. In general like with PoBI I am somewhat concerned that lack of baseline ancient DNA results are gonna lead to some 'funky press reporting' when the paper is finally released. Ideally we need the following:
1. Baseline early medieval aDNA samples from Ireland (which can be compared with Iron age British and Anglo-Saxon period english)
2. Baseline late Iron age/Viking period Norse samples from Scandinavia
3. Any other aDNA from late Roman/Early medieval Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands even Spain) -- so as to acts as a comparison.
4. Bronze age/Early Iron age (pre-Roman period) from any of the above geographic regions.

Modern continental populations have undergone genetic drift just like insular one's. ergo there is built in problem with using modern European populations to determine admixture event in Ireland, particulary as they generate these European clusters in a 'pool of samples' which explicitly excludes the irish samplses. (this was same issue with PoBI study).

Mind you the Rathlin 4000 years old DNA was said to be essentially like modern Irish and Scots and that is way before any Germanic input. So the Viking impact must be pretty subtle

alan
11-25-2017, 12:48 AM
Obviously quite a bit of that Norwegian ancestry he speaks about came via the Hebrides

Since you said "isles Celts" rather than the present day folk, how about Pays de la Loire, Alan? Likely a lot less Scandinavian and Germans I'd guess. werex

That sounds reasonable though I wouldnt go much further south down the coast or you get into Aquitanian territory and they were likely more Basque like and would cluster more with southern Europe in terms of autosomal DNA.

alan
11-25-2017, 12:54 AM
Thanks, this was very interesting!

Some points I noticed:

1. At about 26:45 Ed Gilbert mentions there are slight differences between all of the different clusters on the Island of Ireland. So, I would say they use software (perhaps with other means) to comb out enough differences between them so that we can see different clusters. Seems like the different clusters must not be radically different from each other to start with.

2. At about 26:55, Ed mentions subsets of individuals who appear to be half Irish and half British. So, this must be the 3 British/Irish Northern Ireland clusters mentioned in Heber's notes. Ed says the admixture took place some time in the 17th or 18th centuries, and he mentions the Ulster Plantations. So, this shoots down the beloved notion by many, including some writers on the Ulster Scots that there was very little, or no, intermarriage between the Gaelic Irish natives and the incoming Planters.

3. At about 27:42, he mentions that the region/country closest autosomal DNA wise to the Irish is Brittany. This differs from the Irish DNA Atlas PCA chart shown in this thread some time back that showed the country most closely related to the Irish autosomal DNA wise was Scotland. However, seems like Ed did mention the people of Brittany were genetically related to the people of Wales, Cornwall, and Scotland.

4. At about 28:08, Ed mentions that a significant part of the Irish genome looks rather Norwegian (from the west coast of Norway, where some of the Vikings came from). At about 28:36. he mentions that Norwegian ancestry is spread throughout Ireland. So, this is in direct contrast with what has been said for at least several years, that the Viking genetic input in Ireland was very little.

A good point Dubhthach mentioned is, because of drift, the autosomal DNA of modern Norwegians could be different than those of the Viking period. Yet, according to Ed, a significant portion of the Irish genome appears Norwegian, so, if this genetic closeness is not due to Viking input, how did it get there? Could it be that the best we can say is that a significant portion of the Irish genome appears to resemble MODERN Norwegians who live on the west coast of Norway? Some interesting food for thought. I would love to hear Ed Gilbert questioned on if he thinks genetic drift could cause modern Norwegians to not be a good proxy sample for Viking DNA.

I would love to hear others opinions on what Ed Gilbert said in that video.

Kind Regards

I think he meant that other than Britain the closest continental match for the Irish is Brittany rather than meaning the Bretons were closer to the Irish than the British.

Sikeliot
11-25-2017, 03:46 AM
4. At about 28:08, Ed mentions that a significant part of the Irish genome looks rather Norwegian (from the west coast of Norway, where some of the Vikings came from). At about 28:36. he mentions that Norwegian ancestry is spread throughout Ireland. So, this is in direct contrast with what has been said for at least several years, that the Viking genetic input in Ireland was very little.

Maybe western Norwegians have Celtic or Irish-like input rather than the reverse. It could be. Norwegians are genetically slightly "west" (i.e. more British/Irish like) than Swedes are.

Jessie
11-25-2017, 05:05 AM
Maybe western Norwegians have Celtic or Irish-like input rather than the reverse. It could be. Norwegians are genetically slightly "west" (i.e. more British/Irish like) than Swedes are.

There hasn't been a history of Irish going to Norway but there was Vikings in Ireland. Logic would suggest it is Norwegian input into the Irish genepool.

Pascal C
11-25-2017, 05:54 AM
werex

That sounds reasonable though I wouldnt go much further south down the coast or you get into Aquitanian territory and they were likely more Basque like and would cluster more with southern Europe in terms of autosomal DNA.

I thought about that too. I think the northern part would be a safe bet though.

Ironically, Aquitaine is where one of my, theoretical, ancestors went to Ireland from, the "English" city of La Rochelle. Apparently the very beloved and charismatic John got this Norman (nominally, if not geographically) to travel hundreds of miles to a then backwoods island to live in a place on a river that looks suspiciously like it might be the Gaelic word for Sewer just to keep the Angevin imperial boot to the local Hiberno Norse Waterfordians' collective neck. I'd guess this Lackland lackey probably had more brawn than brains.

Pascal C
11-25-2017, 06:22 AM
There hasn't been a history of Irish going to Norway but there was Vikings in Ireland. Logic would suggest it is Norwegian input into the Irish genepool.

Some of the Scandinavians were Danes, but separating their DNA impact from the English would be hard, especially since they became "English" in Dublin in the 12th C. I've also read conjecture that very many settlers were Danes from England since Scandinavia didn't have cities at the time the Irish ones were built, while England did.

Norway held the Isles and there are many names in Ireland from Ulster to Munster that originated in Innse Gall or Argyll, so I think a large amount of the Norwegian DNA was mediated via Britain.

Jessie
11-25-2017, 06:37 AM
Some of the Scandinavians were Danes, but separating their DNA impact from the English would be hard, especially since they became "English" in Dublin in the 12th C. I've also read conjecture that very many settlers were Danes from England since Scandinavia didn't have cities at the time the Irish ones were built, while England did.

Norway held the Isles and there are many names in Ireland from Ulster to Munster that originated in Innse Gall or Argyll, so I think a large amount of the Norwegian DNA was mediated via Britain.

It will be interesting when the study is finally released as I'm sure there will be some breakdown from parts of the UK. Danish and Anglo-Saxon dna is similar but Norwegian dna is more distinct.

This was the breakdown from the PoBI. The results are only for Northern Ireland but it is interesting to note the Northern Irish Catholic/W Scotland cluster and the Northern Irish Protestant/S Scotland cluster in comparison to the rest of Britain.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2utlx6s.jpg

Here's another one which shows the Norwegian component more clearly.

http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

Heber
11-25-2017, 09:56 AM
He put slightly more emphasis on the Norwegian component than in previous presentations and dates it to 1,000 ya. This would indicate it is connected to the Viking settlements.
I am surprised he said all three N. Ireland mixed Irish / British components were related to the plantations. I had assumed one was related to an earlier Dal Riada period which was described in POBI. There was also a mysterious purple Gaelic component which I expect will be identifiable in the final paper.
Another detail I want to examine in the final paper is the cluster which stretches from Galway to Dublin alone the path of the ancient Eiscir Riada.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker_Riada

CillKenny
11-25-2017, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE=Heber;315462]He put slightly more emphasis on the Norwegian component than in previous presentations and dates it to 1,000 ya. This would indicate it is connected to the Viking settlements.

It is also interesting that this signal is evenly dispersed when the Norse cities were very much concentrated on the east and south coasts. This seems counter-intuitive unless the remaining population of the Norse cities were dispersed when the cities fell around a thousand years ago.

kevinduffy
11-25-2017, 06:11 PM
There hasn't been a history of Irish going to Norway but there was Vikings in Ireland. Logic would suggest it is Norwegian input into the Irish genepool.

But weren't Irish people taken to Norway as slaves by the Vikings?

Jessie
11-25-2017, 07:34 PM
But weren't Irish people taken to Norway as slaves by the Vikings?

Yes I would say so but I'm sure the Irish DNA Atlas would be able to find Irish admixture in the Norwegians. I doubt the Norwegian admixture in the Irish is due to Irish slaves being taken to Norway. I would think a finescale study like this would be able to differentiate these events. It would be a bit like saying that British like admixture in the Danes is due to British input instead of similarity to Anglo-Saxons. In short I don't think it is likely that they would put Norwegian admixture in Ireland down to Irish slaves in Norway. How many slaves would there be in Western Norway to have such an affect on the genepool?

Pascal C
11-25-2017, 08:04 PM
Tore Iversen, who did a lot of study on the slaves of the period, doesn't believe there were large scale importations of slaves to Norway and that most were locals, but if they were imported, Ireland still probably would have been just some from the various areas the Scandinavians raided in the isles and on the continent.

J1 DYS388=13
11-25-2017, 08:51 PM
This Google Map may be mtDNA evidence of Irish in western Norway. But just two or three women might account for it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Y8ZJIjblMPzmNesm37Ea7n3Yv3w&usp=sharing

Jessie
11-25-2017, 08:55 PM
This Google Map may be mtDNA evidence of Irish in western Norway. But just two or three women might account for it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Y8ZJIjblMPzmNesm37Ea7n3Yv3w&usp=sharing

My mtdna has two 1 step matches to Norway but also to the Russian Federation. I don't know if that suggests an Irish connection to Norway or vice versa.

kevinduffy
11-25-2017, 09:28 PM
2. At about 26:55, Ed mentions subsets of individuals who appear to be half Irish and half British. So, this must be the 3 British/Irish Northern Ireland clusters mentioned in Heber's notes. Ed says the admixture took place some time in the 17th or 18th centuries, and he mentions the Ulster Plantations. So, this shoots down the beloved notion by many, including some writers on the Ulster Scots that there was very little, or no, intermarriage between the Gaelic Irish natives and the incoming Planters.

If there were significant levels of intermarriage between the native Irish and the British invaders there should be some documentation to back it up such as marriage records.

fridurich
11-25-2017, 11:00 PM
If there were significant levels of intermarriage between the native Irish and the British invaders there should be some documentation to back it up such as marriage records.

Thanks for your reply Kevin.

I think there had to be some degree of intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland, or Ed Gilbert with the Irish DNA Atlas study wouldn't have mentioned the 3 groups that had half Irish half British ancestry which he says happened some time in the 17th or 18th century.

Church records in Northern Ireland, in general, are rare for both Presbyterians and Catholics before the early 1800s, with the Catholic ones being generally later than the Presbyterian ones. Here's the link to PRONI (Public Record Office of Northern Ireland) marriage records.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf

So there could be at least 200 years where mixed marriages took place with no record of it.

In "Presbyterians and the Irish Language" by Roger Blaney, on pages 16 and 17, he mentioned where some of the Gaelic Catholic Irish converted to Presbyterianism. He mentions some of the surnames from the Templepatrick Presybterian Church (County Antrim) session book from 1646 to 1744. Not only were there a lot of Irish surnames, there were a lot that had the O'! He lists some of the Irish surnames found there. In other instances Blaney speaks of, on page 17, over time, the O' was dropped. In another study of Saintfield Presbyterian Church, founded in 1658, there were found many instances of Irish surnames. It was pointed out that many more persons of Gaelic Irish descent could have had their name subsumed by anglicized surnames on pages 17,18.

So, if someone whose ancestors were Catholic Gaelic Irish, but somewhere down the line, they anglicized their name to where it didn't look Irish, and they no longer spoke Gaelic, and they were Protestant, then how could another Protestant distinguish them from those whose ancestors came from the Scottish Lowlands or England?

My late O'Hair uncle is a fairly strong autosomal DNA match to a Patterson who lives in County Down, N. Ireland. My ancestor Michael O'Hair b. 1749 came from County Down. This Patterson has an O'Hare great grandmother, who was Catholic, but who married a Protestant. Miss Patterson said her family has several mixed marriages and she also said her name Patterson, was Ulster Scot. Miss Patterson is also an autosomal match to an O'Hare from County Down, who appears to have about 3 Ulster Scot, or Scottish surnames in his ancestry.

I was taken aback a little by this, as I thought there was so much segregation in Northern Ireland that these admixture events would be more rare. So, I think mixed marriages were by no means often, but I think that over time they happened enough for the autosomal DNA of the 3 British/Irish clusters to reflect it. Also, I think the great majority of the Catholic Irish remained Catholic. In another book I have, I have read of a few Scottish lowland families that were Catholic that came to N. Ireland during the Plantations. They may have been from the Scottish/English border.

As far as YDNA, there are many Irish surnames and many Scottish surnames that are M222>S588. I think there was much back and forth movement between Scotland and Ireland in early Medieval times, as well as before that, and later. I myself am M222>S588>S603 and there are some Scottish surnames that are S603 as well, although it seems like there are much more Irish names that are S603.

There are Ulster Scot Ewings whose ancestors came to N. Ireland (I think probably came in during the Plantations), who are confirmed S603. Also, I have read of other people who have Ulster Scot ancestry and are M222.

This is a very interesting subject. Blaney also names some Presbyterian ministers who had the O' prefix in their Irish surname.

Kind Regards

Pascal C
11-25-2017, 11:49 PM
Thanks for your reply Kevin.

I think there had to be some degree of intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland, or Ed Gilbert with the Irish DNA Atlas study wouldn't have mentioned the 3 groups that had half Irish half British ancestry which he says happened some time in the 17th or 18th century.

Church records in Northern Ireland, in general, are rare for both Presbyterians and Catholics before the early 1800s, with the Catholic ones being generally later than the Presbyterian ones. Here's the link to PRONI (Public Record Office of Northern Ireland) marriage records.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf

So there could be at least 200 years where mixed marriages took place with no record of it.

In "Presbyterians and the Irish Language" by Roger Blaney, on pages 16 and 17, he mentioned where some of the Gaelic Catholic Irish converted to Presbyterianism. He mentions some of the surnames from the Templepatrick Presybterian Church (County Antrim) session book from 1646 to 1744. Not only were there a lot of Irish surnames, there were a lot that had the O'! He lists some of the Irish surnames found there. In other instances Blaney speaks of, on page 17, over time, the O' was dropped. In another study of Saintfield Presbyterian Church, founded in 1658, there were found many instances of Irish surnames. It was pointed out that many more persons of Gaelic Irish descent could have had their name subsumed by anglicized surnames on pages 17,18.

So, if someone whose ancestors were Catholic Gaelic Irish, but somewhere down the line, they anglicized their name to where it didn't look Irish, and they no longer spoke Gaelic, and they were Protestant, then how could another Protestant distinguish them from those whose ancestors came from the Scottish Lowlands or England?

My late O'Hair uncle is a fairly strong autosomal DNA match to a Patterson who lives in County Down, N. Ireland. My ancestor Michael O'Hair b. 1749 came from County Down. This Patterson has an O'Hare great grandmother, who was Catholic, but who married a Protestant. Miss Patterson said her family has several mixed marriages and she also said her name Patterson, was Ulster Scot. Miss Patterson is also an autosomal match to an O'Hare from County Down, who appears to have about 3 Ulster Scot, or Scottish surnames in his ancestry.

I was taken aback a little by this, as I thought there was so much segregation in Northern Ireland that these admixture events would be more rare. So, I think mixed marriages were by no means often, but I think that over time they happened enough for the autosomal DNA of the 3 British/Irish clusters to reflect it. Also, I think the great majority of the Catholic Irish remained Catholic. In another book I have, I have read of a few Scottish lowland families that were Catholic that came to N. Ireland during the Plantations. They may have been from the Scottish/English border.

As far as YDNA, there are many Irish surnames and many Scottish surnames that are M222>S588. I think there was much back and forth movement between Scotland and Ireland in early Medieval times, as well as before that, and later. I myself am M222>S588>S603 and there are some Scottish surnames that are S603 as well, although it seems like there are much more Irish names that are S603.

There are Ulster Scot Ewings whose ancestors came to N. Ireland (I think probably came in during the Plantations), who are confirmed S603. Also, I have read of other people who have Ulster Scot ancestry and are M222.

This is a very interesting subject. Blaney also names some Presbyterian ministers who had the O' prefix in their Irish surname.

Kind Regards

I've read before that many in Antrim and Down converted to Presbyterianism early in the 17th century, supposedly from lack of priests. I also remember reading that some of the later mixed marriages with dissenters were done by defrocked priests.

At least one of the claimed origins for Ewing is the McEwens from Argyll and they have been claimed to be of Ui Niall ancestry so M222 should not be too surprising, however it may be the result of some later interactions, there was certainly plenty of traffic both ways and Coleraine is closer to Islay than to Belfast.

kevinduffy
11-26-2017, 12:10 AM
Thanks for your reply Kevin.

I think there had to be some degree of intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland, or Ed Gilbert with the Irish DNA Atlas study wouldn't have mentioned the 3 groups that had half Irish half British ancestry which he says happened some time in the 17th or 18th century.

Church records in Northern Ireland, in general, are rare for both Presbyterians and Catholics before the early 1800s, with the Catholic ones being generally later than the Presbyterian ones. Here's the link to PRONI (Public Record Office of Northern Ireland) marriage records.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf

So there could be at least 200 years where mixed marriages took place with no record of it.

In "Presbyterians and the Irish Language" by Roger Blaney, on pages 16 and 17, he mentioned where some of the Gaelic Catholic Irish converted to Presbyterianism. He mentions some of the surnames from the Templepatrick Presybterian Church (County Antrim) session book from 1646 to 1744. Not only were there a lot of Irish surnames, there were a lot that had the O'! He lists some of the Irish surnames found there. In other instances Blaney speaks of, on page 17, over time, the O' was dropped. In another study of Saintfield Presbyterian Church, founded in 1658, there were found many instances of Irish surnames. It was pointed out that many more persons of Gaelic Irish descent could have had their name subsumed by anglicized surnames on pages 17,18.

So, if someone whose ancestors were Catholic Gaelic Irish, but somewhere down the line, they anglicized their name to where it didn't look Irish, and they no longer spoke Gaelic, and they were Protestant, then how could another Protestant distinguish them from those whose ancestors came from the Scottish Lowlands or England?

My late O'Hair uncle is a fairly strong autosomal DNA match to a Patterson who lives in County Down, N. Ireland. My ancestor Michael O'Hair b. 1749 came from County Down. This Patterson has an O'Hare great grandmother, who was Catholic, but who married a Protestant. Miss Patterson said her family has several mixed marriages and she also said her name Patterson, was Ulster Scot. Miss Patterson is also an autosomal match to an O'Hare from County Down, who appears to have about 3 Ulster Scot, or Scottish surnames in his ancestry.

I was taken aback a little by this, as I thought there was so much segregation in Northern Ireland that these admixture events would be more rare. So, I think mixed marriages were by no means often, but I think that over time they happened enough for the autosomal DNA of the 3 British/Irish clusters to reflect it. Also, I think the great majority of the Catholic Irish remained Catholic. In another book I have, I have read of a few Scottish lowland families that were Catholic that came to N. Ireland during the Plantations. They may have been from the Scottish/English border.

As far as YDNA, there are many Irish surnames and many Scottish surnames that are M222>S588. I think there was much back and forth movement between Scotland and Ireland in early Medieval times, as well as before that, and later. I myself am M222>S588>S603 and there are some Scottish surnames that are S603 as well, although it seems like there are much more Irish names that are S603.

There are Ulster Scot Ewings whose ancestors came to N. Ireland (I think probably came in during the Plantations), who are confirmed S603. Also, I have read of other people who have Ulster Scot ancestry and are M222.

This is a very interesting subject. Blaney also names some Presbyterian ministers who had the O' prefix in their Irish surname.

Kind Regards

I am not seeing anything in your response that indicates a significant level of intermarriage between native Irish and British invaders. At best, all you have managed to establish is that there was the occasional intermarriage between the two groups which is something that I don't think too many people have denied. Few people have ever argued that there was zero intermarriage between the two populations.

fridurich
11-26-2017, 12:39 AM
I've read before that many in Antrim and Down converted to Presbyterianism early in the 17th century, supposedly from lack of priests.
I also remember reading that some of the later mixed marriages with dissenters were done by defrocked priests.

At least one of the claimed origins for Ewing is the McEwens from Argyll and they have been claimed to be of Ui Niall ancestry so M222 should not be too surprising, however it may be the result of some later interactions, there was certainly plenty of traffic both ways and Coleraine is closer to Islay than to Belfast.

It seems like I also remember reading something about some Irish Catholics in Ulster converting to Protestantism because of lack of priests.

In my personal opinion, I think the S603 Ewings may be the same line as the medieval MacEwens of Otter, in Argyle. At http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/ewing2.htm it says the Clan Ewen claim descent from one Anrothan O'Neill who is said to be an Irish prince. I have read about this Anrothan before, and seems like there has been some kind of controversy if the Ewens actually do descend from Anrothan.

One thing is for sure, the S603 Ewings have a common ancestor somewhere with some S603 men who have Irish northern Ui Neill surnames. These Ewings are also kin to the current chief of the Scottish Highland Struan (in Perthshire) Robertsons (Clann Donnachaidh) who is S603. I have also heard that the current chief of the Perthshire Fergusons is S603 as well. All of these men had to have a common S603 ancestor somewhere, whether he originated in Ireland or Scotland.

Kind Regards

kevinduffy
11-26-2017, 03:00 AM
It seems like I also remember reading something about some Irish Catholics in Ulster converting to Protestantism because of lack of priests.

Where did you read this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJ5ci0A8sY

Dubhthach
11-26-2017, 10:10 AM
Yes I would say so but I'm sure the Irish DNA Atlas would be able to find Irish admixture in the Norwegians. I doubt the Norwegian admixture in the Irish is due to Irish slaves being taken to Norway. I would think a finescale study like this would be able to differentiate these events. It would be a bit like saying that British like admixture in the Danes is due to British input instead of similarity to Anglo-Saxons. In short I don't think it is likely that they would put Norwegian admixture in Ireland down to Irish slaves in Norway. How many slaves would there be in Western Norway to have such an affect on the genepool?

Remember though that the clusters in the PoBI were derived by using a sampleset that excluded Irish and British samples. In the original run they at least had an Irish sample, but note the 'blackhole' where Britain is. If you ask me this is a methodological flaw. Ideally all the samples should be put in the pot and than regional clusters derived.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-original-clusters.png

What we can at least say on above, is there doesn't seem to be an Irish like cluster in the West Scandinavian samples (well one that is obvious), however note how diverse Norway is, there are at least 4 distinct components in the region (7,8,9,10 -- with 11 further north).

Anyways with regards to the proposed Norse admixture into Ireland about 1,000 years ago, well one obviously suggestion is the Cambro-Norman's as an additional vector. Tbh the only real way to filter this out is to sample aDNA remains from Ireland dating to period 700-1100AD and comparing them with modern samples. At least than ye could model the 'drift' of modern Irish population from early medieval one.

avalon
11-26-2017, 01:36 PM
I'd agree that the POBI methodology wasn't perfect, though I do think it worked to a certain extent because if you look at their results the Norwegian component was highest in Westray/Orkney as would be expected and there is a general cline from north to south with it being lowest in Cornwall which is what we would from expect from known history as I don't believe there is any/much record of Norse settlement in Cornwall.

Be interesting to see the final paper, I would still expect Norwegian admixture to be modest in Ireland, perhaps intermediary between Orkney at the one end and Cornwall/Southern England at the other.

Saetro
11-27-2017, 04:53 AM
If there were significant levels of intermarriage between the native Irish and the British invaders there should be some documentation to back it up such as marriage records.

Not sure what your critical level is for "significant".
Both Catholics and Presbyterians were not regarded as being proper by various British run Irish administrations.
You had to be Church of Ireland to be able to take up certain jobs/roles.
Some changes of denomination are apparently documented.
Certainly in any other jurisdiction where this was the case there was some change if the administration allowed it.

Pascal C
11-27-2017, 08:15 AM
It seems like I also remember reading something about some Irish Catholics in Ulster converting to Protestantism because of lack of priests.

In my personal opinion, I think the S603 Ewings may be the same line as the medieval MacEwens of Otter, in Argyle. At http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/ewing2.htm it says the Clan Ewen claim descent from one Anrothan O'Neill who is said to be an Irish prince. I have read about this Anrothan before, and seems like there has been some kind of controversy if the Ewens actually do descend from Anrothan.

One thing is for sure, the S603 Ewings have a common ancestor somewhere with some S603 men who have Irish northern Ui Neill surnames. These Ewings are also kin to the current chief of the Scottish Highland Struan (in Perthshire) Robertsons (Clann Donnachaidh) who is S603. I have also heard that the current chief of the Perthshire Fergusons is S603 as well. All of these men had to have a common S603 ancestor somewhere, whether he originated in Ireland or Scotland.

Kind Regards

Robertsons also are supposed to be descendants of Ui Niall but via the Columban move to Atholl from Iona. I'm not sure about the controversy you refer to, but I remember John McLoughlin in his theory (obviously wrong) that the post 1000 O'Neills were actually McLaughlins tried to discredit any descent from that O'Neill, using some discredited 14th or 15th century recording that confused families and was dismissed by others.

Pascal C
11-27-2017, 08:39 AM
Remember though that the clusters in the PoBI were derived by using a sampleset that excluded Irish and British samples. In the original run they at least had an Irish sample, but note the 'blackhole' where Britain is. If you ask me this is a methodological flaw. Ideally all the samples should be put in the pot and than regional clusters derived.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-original-clusters.png

What we can at least say on above, is there doesn't seem to be an Irish like cluster in the West Scandinavian samples (well one that is obvious), however note how diverse Norway is, there are at least 4 distinct components in the region (7,8,9,10 -- with 11 further north).

Anyways with regards to the proposed Norse admixture into Ireland about 1,000 years ago, well one obviously suggestion is the Cambro-Norman's as an additional vector. Tbh the only real way to filter this out is to sample aDNA remains from Ireland dating to period 700-1100AD and comparing them with modern samples. At least than ye could model the 'drift' of modern Irish population from early medieval one.

I see the various "Normans" as a mix. They came via Britain after already having their Scandinavian ancestry diluted in France, not to mention the majority were non Norman people involved in William's conquest, but of course they contributed. OTOH even today after centuries of mixing the folk of west Scotlandl retain a significant Norse signal and many from there, settled throughout Ireland and seem to me a far more likely vector for much of it, Although they did start mixing with the Dal Riadans in the isles a lot earlier than 1000 but then that date really didn't give the Ostmen much time in Ireland either before Strongbow & co.

Nqp15hhu
11-28-2017, 04:01 AM
Thank you for taking you time and taking notes and updating us on this project hopefully when they publish the results it will answer a few questions i have still remaining. I will write in this post some questions I have and give my opinion of my Irish hertiage based on results referring to my LivingDNA results.

First question i have and a bit of topic is the Irish traveller bit of the Irish DNA atlas completed?

My mother side is from Ulster Irish hertiage in my LivingDNA their is a clear NI-2 (Dal Riada) link as my North West Scotland 27.4%. My father side is from Ulster Scot hertiage you can clearly see NI-3 present in my livingDNA results. This through up a few questions about what POBI identified as Ulster Protestant they said the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was that but my livingDNA results indicated that the Ulster Planter cluster was Cumbria and Northumbria cluster.

In cautious mode they have grouped my Northumbria and Cumbria together. Where as South West Scotland and Northern Ireland was grouped with Ireland and North West Scotland suggesting the South West Scotland and Northern Ireland is Irish in nature.

In LivingDNA i did get some percentages in English regions they where South East England, East Anglia and Cornish suggestion i do have some heritage from 19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter).


Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster did they state what this cluster was closed too because it could mean their is an Dal Riada link North Ireland DNA and Highland Scotland is very similar. Or it could mean it is closer to Welsh DNA being that they haven't had much migration from the first settlers that settled their.

Did they mention anything about how close is any of the cluster would be to the People of the British Isles Clusters?

Norwegian Cluster comparing People of the British Isle results the Scottish highland cluster is the next highest percentage clusters with Viking imprint. This will mean that not just Ulster Irish is most similar to people in North West Scotland it means all the Irish cluster would be similar to the North West Scotland.

Finally when they are talking about Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide are they talking about a clear Ulster Scot East/ Ulster Irish West divide or Ulster Irish East/Ulster Irish West divide?

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

I would be interested to know what this Ulster East divide means. My ancestry DNA Genetic Communties refer to Ulster East and Derry/Inishowen (obviously Ulster West), I am wondering if that is referring to the Catholic population 'divide'? It doesn't particularly make sense as there are Ulster Scots people all over Northern Ireland, not just Antrim.

Nqp15hhu
11-28-2017, 04:23 AM
Thanks for your reply Kevin.

I think there had to be some degree of intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland, or Ed Gilbert with the Irish DNA Atlas study wouldn't have mentioned the 3 groups that had half Irish half British ancestry which he says happened some time in the 17th or 18th century.

Church records in Northern Ireland, in general, are rare for both Presbyterians and Catholics before the early 1800s, with the Catholic ones being generally later than the Presbyterian ones. Here's the link to PRONI (Public Record Office of Northern Ireland) marriage records.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf

So there could be at least 200 years where mixed marriages took place with no record of it.

In "Presbyterians and the Irish Language" by Roger Blaney, on pages 16 and 17, he mentioned where some of the Gaelic Catholic Irish converted to Presbyterianism. He mentions some of the surnames from the Templepatrick Presybterian Church (County Antrim) session book from 1646 to 1744. Not only were there a lot of Irish surnames, there were a lot that had the O'! He lists some of the Irish surnames found there. In other instances Blaney speaks of, on page 17, over time, the O' was dropped. In another study of Saintfield Presbyterian Church, founded in 1658, there were found many instances of Irish surnames. It was pointed out that many more persons of Gaelic Irish descent could have had their name subsumed by anglicized surnames on pages 17,18.

So, if someone whose ancestors were Catholic Gaelic Irish, but somewhere down the line, they anglicized their name to where it didn't look Irish, and they no longer spoke Gaelic, and they were Protestant, then how could another Protestant distinguish them from those whose ancestors came from the Scottish Lowlands or England?

My late O'Hair uncle is a fairly strong autosomal DNA match to a Patterson who lives in County Down, N. Ireland. My ancestor Michael O'Hair b. 1749 came from County Down. This Patterson has an O'Hare great grandmother, who was Catholic, but who married a Protestant. Miss Patterson said her family has several mixed marriages and she also said her name Patterson, was Ulster Scot. Miss Patterson is also an autosomal match to an O'Hare from County Down, who appears to have about 3 Ulster Scot, or Scottish surnames in his ancestry.

I was taken aback a little by this, as I thought there was so much segregation in Northern Ireland that these admixture events would be more rare. So, I think mixed marriages were by no means often, but I think that over time they happened enough for the autosomal DNA of the 3 British/Irish clusters to reflect it. Also, I think the great majority of the Catholic Irish remained Catholic. In another book I have, I have read of a few Scottish lowland families that were Catholic that came to N. Ireland during the Plantations. They may have been from the Scottish/English border.

As far as YDNA, there are many Irish surnames and many Scottish surnames that are M222>S588. I think there was much back and forth movement between Scotland and Ireland in early Medieval times, as well as before that, and later. I myself am M222>S588>S603 and there are some Scottish surnames that are S603 as well, although it seems like there are much more Irish names that are S603.

There are Ulster Scot Ewings whose ancestors came to N. Ireland (I think probably came in during the Plantations), who are confirmed S603. Also, I have read of other people who have Ulster Scot ancestry and are M222.

This is a very interesting subject. Blaney also names some Presbyterian ministers who had the O' prefix in their Irish surname.

Kind Regards

Most likely. I have English surnames in my family tree (relatively recent) e.g. Smith, Thomson and according to the AncestryDNA test, I have zero GB ancestry. I guess the English influene has been diluted.

Nqp15hhu
11-28-2017, 04:25 AM
I've read before that many in Antrim and Down converted to Presbyterianism early in the 17th century, supposedly from lack of priests. I also remember reading that some of the later mixed marriages with dissenters were done by defrocked priests.

At least one of the claimed origins for Ewing is the McEwens from Argyll and they have been claimed to be of Ui Niall ancestry so M222 should not be too surprising, however it may be the result of some later interactions, there was certainly plenty of traffic both ways and Coleraine is closer to Islay than to Belfast.

Yes, that's right. You can see Islay from the North Coast.

Nqp15hhu
11-28-2017, 04:27 AM
I am not seeing anything in your response that indicates a significant level of intermarriage between native Irish and British invaders. At best, all you have managed to establish is that there was the occasional intermarriage between the two groups which is something that I don't think too many people have denied. Few people have ever argued that there was zero intermarriage between the two populations.

I think some Americans with Ulster Scots ancestry have a fantasy that their ancestors were somehow converts and thus wrongly allocated as Ulster Scots. I know on my Protestant side, my American relatives have tried to attach my family to a Catholic family in Donegal, of which we have ZERO connections with (my surname is rare in Northern Ireland).

Nqp15hhu
11-28-2017, 04:31 AM
My surname is the Irish variant of an English name, but old records of my family reveal this spelling: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/name-origin?surname=skimming

Interestingly this map highlights the majority of people with this name having lived in Northern England/Galloway. It would be great if I could find a way to tie my Y-DNA up to this group to confirm this.

fridurich
11-28-2017, 05:37 AM
Where did you read this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJ5ci0A8sY

Hi Kevin. I have been kind of busy lately, but I quote the following from Roger Blaney's book "Presbyterians and the Irish Language". Starting on last paragraph of P. 18 going into p. 19.

"That so many native Irish became Presbyterians indicated that the new arrivals had something to offer. The Catholic Church seems to have been at a low ebb at that time and not able to provide its flock with sufficient priests or church buildings. The law of the land had decreed that it was a crime to say Mass, punishable by being hanged, drawn and quartered. Many of the new ministers were able to preach to them in their own language. The Irish and Scots recognized each other as brethren and indeed were looked on as such by Queen Elizabeth I. It is noteworthy that for at least the early part of the 1641 Rebellion the insurgent native Irish did not attack the Presbyterian population."

A very large portion of the Planters came from Galloway and Ayrshire, where Gaelic had been spoken (at least in parts of these places) at least up until about the beginning of the 17th century, and was probably still spoken in at least a few parts of Galloway until sometime in the 18th century. Some of the planters had Mac prefixed surnames such as McClintock. There are many Gaelic place names in Galloway. Ayrshire has some too.

Kevin, I would like your input on this. If the British component of the subsets of people that Ed Gilbert described as appearing roughly half Irish/half British (about 26:55 on the video timeline) didn't come about because of intermarriage during sometime during the 17th or 18th century, when do you think this Irish and British genetic intermixing occurred? In the video, Ed Gilbert is the thin young guy doing all of the talking about the Irish DNA Atlas results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo

Do you think it could have occurred before the Protestant Reformation, such as maybe during the times of the Gallowglass mercenaries coming into Ireland from about the 12th or 13th centuries A.D. through the 15th century A.D.? The Scottish gallowglasses themselves have been described as of part Gaelic and part Norse descent. Or do you think it could have been due to Normans and their retainers invading Ulster? Or do you think this mixture of British and Irish autosomal DNA happened further back in time, such as when the kingdom of Dal Riada straddled Ulster and Argyle?

Ed Gilbert, with his time frame of sometime in the 17th or 18th centuries A.D. appears to think that is when the admixture happened. I think his time frame is where most of it happened (After all he is the population genetic expert and has access to the test data, and I don't.) but I think some of the Irish/British admixture happened during all of those other times I mention above. I think there was some admixture between the Normans and the Irish in Ulster, but there wasn't a huge Norman presence there.

It would be interesting to talk to Ed Gilbert about the half Irish/half British groups in Northern Ireland he mentioned in the video. Maybe he has an email address where he can be contacted. I would love to discuss this with him.

Kind Regards

Dubhthach
11-29-2017, 11:42 AM
I think some Americans with Ulster Scots ancestry have a fantasy that their ancestors were somehow converts and thus wrongly allocated as Ulster Scots. I know on my Protestant side, my American relatives have tried to attach my family to a Catholic family in Donegal, of which we have ZERO connections with (my surname is rare in Northern Ireland).

Well I can only give anecdotal evidence based on the Ireland yDNA Project, but for example I've seen at least a dozen cases where members assumed they were 'Ulster Scots' in origin (due to migration in 18th century, and fact that family were protestant in North America), but who (a) bear Gaelic Irish surname (b) cluster with other men of surname of more recent irish origin (c) have a surname that isn't even from Ulster or also arises independently outside of Ulster

Good example I've seen is men who bear surname McManus and who thought they might be of Fermanagh family (branch of Maguires) but who actually belong to the Connacht family (a branch of the O'Connor's) and are R-A259+ (and thus match with large cluster of Gaelic irish surnames from west of Ireland).

In their particular case their MDKA is known from Georgia in mid 18th century, so general assumption they had was family were 'Scots-Irish'. Now the question arises in these cases is the scenario that (a) distant ancestor converted in Ireland or (b) distant ancestor assimilated into religious mainstream of 18th century North American colonies

My money is on (b) for lot of these cases.

Nqp15hhu
11-29-2017, 01:14 PM
Ok, that's interesting and you are probably right for a minority of cases in my experience.

How do you tie a family name up to a particular region and location like you described above? I have haplogroup for myself but I have not been able to match it up to a particular location in the British Isles nor an actual name. I realise that some people's surnames are not their Y-DNA surnames from adoption etc.

Saetro
11-29-2017, 08:37 PM
Ok, that's interesting and you are probably right for a minority of cases in my experience.

How do you tie a family name up to a particular region and location like you described above? I have haplogroup for myself but I have not been able to match it up to a particular location in the British Isles nor an actual name. I realise that some people's surnames are not their Y-DNA surnames from adoption etc.

Dr Tyrone Bowes has a technique developed for YDNA STRs (before SNPs and detailed haplogroups really got going).
It should have some application to SNPs also.
He details the technique on one of his websites: Irish, English, Scottish Origenes.
On the Irish one he also has some surname origin information.

Like many techniques, it works well for some cases.
Read his online papers at these sites and see whether you might apply it to your needs.
From what you say above, the addition he provides to the way you are already thinking may or may not help.
But it might be worth a try.

fridurich
11-30-2017, 02:07 AM
Well I can only give anecdotal evidence based on the Ireland yDNA Project, but for example I've seen at least a dozen cases where members assumed they were 'Ulster Scots' in origin (due to migration in 18th century, and fact that family were protestant in North America), but who (a) bear Gaelic Irish surname (b) cluster with other men of surname of more recent irish origin (c) have a surname that isn't even from Ulster or also arises independently outside of Ulster

Good example I've seen is men who bear surname McManus and who thought they might be of Fermanagh family (branch of Maguires) but who actually belong to the Connacht family (a branch of the O'Connor's) and are R-A259+ (and thus match with large cluster of Gaelic irish surnames from west of Ireland).

In their particular case their MDKA is known from Georgia in mid 18th century, so general assumption they had was family were 'Scots-Irish'. Now the question arises in these cases is the scenario that (a) distant ancestor converted in Ireland or (b) distant ancestor assimilated into religious mainstream of 18th century North American colonies

My money is on (b) for lot of these cases.

Dubhthach, I believe you are right in saying your money is on (b) for a lot of these cases. I'll use my own familie's example. My ancestor Michael O'Hair/O'Hare was from County Down, in what is now Northern Ireland. He is first shown in a record, in Augusta County, Virginia in 1762, but I think it possible he could have landed in Pennsylvania. He brought with him a Bible from Ireland. Unfortunately, the Bible burned up in a descendant's house fire (seems like in 1957). It was said to be a Catholic Bible.

Augusta County was drenched with Ulster Scot settlers and my ancestor lived right in the middle of them. Additionally, in that general area (Augusta County and nearby counties) there was not only a lot of Ulster Scot settlers, but their was a minority of settlers who had Gaelic Irish surnames and a few of these even had the O' prefix. Some of the settlers had ambiguous names like McDonald or maybe McLaughlin that would be impossible to tell if they were Irish, Ulster Scot, or Scottish without doing any investigating. There was probably other settlers in this area that were Irish, but their names were too anglicized to show it.

There were also some O'Harrahs in this area. It looks like it didn't take very long before they became Harrahs. I'm an autosomal DNA match to a descendant of one of these, which makes me wonder if they were originally O'Hares, with colonial or American officials confusing their name as O'Harrah.

As far as I know, there were no Catholic churches in colonial Virginia. For that matter, I doubt if there were any of them, (or very few), in any of the English speaking colonies that would later be the U. S., except Maryland. So, if my O'Hair ancestor went to church anywhere (and I believe he did go, at least some times), in these colonial times, it would have had to be a Protestant church and more than likely a Presbyterian one. Even after the colonies became the U. S., there were many areas, especially in the South, where Catholics were not welcome.

Michael O'Hare's two wives (but not married at same time of course, lol) were a Hawkins and a Tribbett (the one I descend from). They both appear to be Protestant and it seems like all of Michael's many children and grandchildren were Protestant. I know of no mentioning of any of them being Catholic. So the vast majority of Michael O'Hair's many descendants today, including myself, are Protestant.

Kind Regards
Fred O'Hair

Dubhthach
11-30-2017, 12:14 PM
Ok, that's interesting and you are probably right for a minority of cases in my experience.

How do you tie a family name up to a particular region and location like you described above? I have haplogroup for myself but I have not been able to match it up to a particular location in the British Isles nor an actual name. I realise that some people's surnames are not their Y-DNA surnames from adoption etc.

Well at base level, some surnames are known to be of Irish origin and not of Scottish, so for example a name like Connor, McManus, Reilly etc, other names are ambiguous eg. the arose in both Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic Scotland (Kennedy is prime example of this! JFK would have matched men with origins in Munster!).

the problem arises is that historically in medieval genealogies some surnames have multiple independent occurrences. This is due to fact that a surname is built using the firstname of a distant ancestor. Sometimes that personal name was very popular. The two famous examples I can give are:

Murchadh -> Mac Murchadha/Ó Murchdha -- anglisced as Murphy
Ceallach -> Ó Ceallaigh -- anglisced as O'Kelly/Kelly

In both cases you are probably looking at at least 10 distinct families each that bear the surname each claiming descent from a different titular Murchadh (anglisced Murrough) or Ceallach. If you want to say someone belongs to say Connacht Murphy's and not Leinster Murphys you need to compare surnames that they match with (eg. non Murphy matches) and geographic origins of said surnames.

In other cases you might have only one or two independent occurences. In case of McManus there are generally regarded as two families in genealogy. These been:
1. McManus of Fermanagh, junior branch of Maguires descendended from Maghnus Mag Uidhre (d.1302)
2. McManus of Roscommon/Connacht, junior branch of the O'Connor's of Connacht, descended from Maghnus Ua Conchobhair (d.1181)

In both cases as these were 'cadet branches' the eventually adapted their own surname as they were no longer in running to become 'head of lineage'/'head of lordship' of the parent surname.

So for example if we do a 67 STR test on a random sample of McManus men, in general we see two large clusters appearing (along with singular branches). Men within each branch match each other but are extremely distant from men in the other branch.

If we then look at the other surnames that men in either men match we see a pattern.

(1) Fermanagh McManus men show matches with men bearing surname Maguire and other fermanagh surnames, fall into Airghialla II STR cluster and test R-L513+)
(2) Connacht McManus men show matches with men bearing surname O'Connor (include a close relative of the O'Conor Don) and are not only R-M222+ but also fall into a branch called A259+

The A259 bit is crucial here, as A259 is 'enriched' in men with surnames from west of Ireland who in the medieval genealogies are linked together into kindred known as the Uí Briúin (descendants of Brion eg. the supposed half brother of bould Niall of the Nine Hostages). Within A259 we see men bearing surnames such as:


O'Connor
McManus
McDermott
O'Rourke
O'Reilly
Kernan
McGovern
Forde
O'Flaherty
McDonagh
McHugh
Halloran
Fallon
Byrne
Concannon


All of the list surnames above in the historical genealogies were listed as been Uí Briúin origin. Not only that some of those surnames ever arose one in Ireland eg. Halloran, Concannon, McGovern etc.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eochaid-connachta.png

So to go back to our 'colonial North American' McManus group, they had historically seen themselves as 'Scots Irish' due to obviously been in Georgia in early/mid 18th century and also been Protestant as far as back as they could go. Their closest match in FTDNA are with other McManus men with recent ancestry in County Roscommon, and than with bunch of men bearing surname O'Connor (with origins in west of Ireland).

Of course I should say that over their many lines of descent (eg. not just their Y-DNA descent line) they probably have plenty of 'Scots-Irish' mixed in, just their surname origin is actually 'Gaelic Irish'

Nqp15hhu
11-30-2017, 05:05 PM
All very interesting and detailed, thank you. How do I go about tying my Y-DNA to a Surname and location? I have managed to highlight a Haplogroup from another site but I don't know if i've got enough detail.

Thanks.

Pascal C
12-02-2017, 10:12 PM
Well I can only give anecdotal evidence based on the Ireland yDNA Project, but for example I've seen at least a dozen cases where members assumed they were 'Ulster Scots' in origin (due to migration in 18th century, and fact that family were protestant in North America), but who (a) bear Gaelic Irish surname (b) cluster with other men of surname of more recent irish origin (c) have a surname that isn't even from Ulster or also arises independently outside of Ulster

Good example I've seen is men who bear surname McManus and who thought they might be of Fermanagh family (branch of Maguires) but who actually belong to the Connacht family (a branch of the O'Connor's) and are R-A259+ (and thus match with large cluster of Gaelic irish surnames from west of Ireland).

In their particular case their MDKA is known from Georgia in mid 18th century, so general assumption they had was family were 'Scots-Irish'. Now the question arises in these cases is the scenario that (a) distant ancestor converted in Ireland or (b) distant ancestor assimilated into religious mainstream of 18th century North American colonies

My money is on (b) for lot of these cases.

I've seen things like this a lot. Part of the trouble was the usage of "Scotch Irish" for anyone from any part of Ireland who wasn't Catholic or even those who converted to some other sect in the US including people whose ancestry was obviously Garlic, English or "Old English". When part of an ethnicity is religion it becomes problematic, since people try and discard them like coats sometimes.
A few, more notable, examples:
Someone called Philip Sheridan an Ulster Scot, Well he was from Cavan but he was a Catholic and Sheridan is an "Old English" name. Less absurd was calling Thomas Jackson an Ulster Scot/Scotch Irish since his Jackson ancestors were also from Ulster and not Catholics but again not accurate since they were Anglicans of English ancestry. Anthony Wayne's ancestors were Protestants (Anglicans) but weren't even from Ulster or Scotland yet he's been called Scotch Irish by many as well (While McDonnells are "native" Irish). John Stark's parents were Presbyterians and emigrated from Ulster to the US but they were born, raised, married and had lived most of their lives in Scotland they moved in Ireland for about a decade and then onward to America. I know French people who lived In Canada for a little longer before they moved on to the US and in no way do they or anyone regard it making them Canadiens.
The use of the term "Scotch Irish" became much more popular in the 19th Century as much from classism it would seem, as ethnicity, being frequently used for Catholic converts of Gaelic or "Old English" ancestry, who had melted into the "pot's" contents, to distinguish them from the poor and starving ones coming in. Ironically many of the early Ulster arrivals who, like others, were generally just called Irish at the time they fled famines, were often regarded likewise and pushed out to the frontiers in Boston they were claimed to be a burden on the area's charity, in PA the Quakers disdained their incivility. By the mid 19th century their ancestors were well assimilated and were "regular Joes" so something needed to distinguish between the the dirty, starved, sick, masses arriving at the time and the good ol' boys you worked and hung out with. Throw in many an American's ignorance of who their forebearers were and you have folks named Sullivan proudly proclaiming they're "Scotch Irish"

fridurich
12-04-2017, 03:11 AM
I've seen things like this a lot. Part of the trouble was the usage of "Scotch Irish" for anyone from any part of Ireland who wasn't Catholic or even those who converted to some other sect in the US including people whose ancestry was obviously Garlic, English or "Old English". When part of an ethnicity is religion it becomes problematic, since people try and discard them like coats sometimes.
A few, more notable, examples:
Someone called Philip Sheridan an Ulster Scot, Well he was from Cavan but he was a Catholic and Sheridan is an "Old English" name. Less absurd was calling Thomas Jackson an Ulster Scot/Scotch Irish since his Jackson ancestors were also from Ulster and not Catholics but again not accurate since they were Anglicans of English ancestry. Anthony Wayne's ancestors were Protestants (Anglicans) but weren't even from Ulster or Scotland yet he's been called Scotch Irish by many as well (While McDonnells are "native" Irish). John Stark's parents were Presbyterians and emigrated from Ulster to the US but they were born, raised, married and had lived most of their lives in Scotland they moved in Ireland for about a decade and then onward to America. I know French people who lived In Canada for a little longer before they moved on to the US and in no way do they or anyone regard it making them Canadiens.
The use of the term "Scotch Irish" became much more popular in the 19th Century as much from classism it would seem, as ethnicity, being frequently used for Catholic converts of Gaelic or "Old English" ancestry, who had melted into the "pot's" contents, to distinguish them from the poor and starving ones coming in. Ironically many of the early Ulster arrivals who, like others, were generally just called Irish at the time they fled famines, were often regarded likewise and pushed out to the frontiers in Boston they were claimed to be a burden on the area's charity, in PA the Quakers disdained their incivility. By the mid 19th century their ancestors were well assimilated and were "regular Joes" so something needed to distinguish between the the dirty, starved, sick, masses arriving at the time and the good ol' boys you worked and hung out with. Throw in many an American's ignorance of who their forebearers were and you have folks named Sullivan proudly proclaiming they're "Scotch Irish"

Thanks. You make some good points.

Kind Regards

Heber
12-08-2017, 01:25 PM
The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland
Edmund Gilbert, Seamus O’Reilly, Michael Merrigan, Darren McGettigan, Anne M. Molloy, Lawrence C. Brody, Walter Bodmer, Katarzyna Hutnik, Sean Ennis, Daniel J. Lawson, James F. Wilson & Gianpiero L. Cavalleri

Scientific Reports 7, Article number: 17199 (2017)

doi:10.1038/s41598-017-17124-4

Received:
03 November 2017
Accepted:
21 November 2017
Published online:
08 December 2017

Abstract
The extent of population structure within Ireland is largely unknown, as is the impact of historical migrations. Here we illustrate fine-scale genetic structure across Ireland that follows geographic boundaries and present evidence of admixture events into Ireland. Utilising the ‘Irish DNA Atlas’, a cohort (n = 194) of Irish individuals with four generations of ancestry linked to specific regions in Ireland, in combination with 2,039 individuals from the Peoples of the British Isles dataset, we show that the Irish population can be divided in 10 distinct geographically stratified genetic clusters; seven of ‘Gaelic’ Irish ancestry, and three of shared Irish-British ancestry. In addition we observe a major genetic barrier to the north of Ireland in Ulster. Using a reference of 6,760 European individuals and two ancient Irish genomes, we demonstrate high levels of North-West French-like and West Norwegian-like ancestry within Ireland. We show that that our ‘Gaelic’ Irish clusters present homogenous levels of ancient Irish ancestries. We additionally detect admixture events that provide evidence of Norse-Viking gene flow into Ireland, and reflect the Ulster Plantations. Our work informs both on Irish history, as well as the study of Mendelian and complex disease genetics involving populations of Irish ancestry.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_population-genetics

https://pin.it/late46kswi7nxj

avalon
12-08-2017, 02:14 PM
Just had a quick read through. Fascinating stuff! It seems even the authors were surprised by the Norwegian signal within Ireland although they do mention the possibility of Irish migration back to Norway via the slave trade as being a factor.

evon
12-08-2017, 03:00 PM
Just had a quick read through. Fascinating stuff! It seems even the authors were surprised by the Norwegian signal within Ireland although they do mention the possibility of Irish migration back to Norway via the slave trade as being a factor.

I just had a quick look at the graphs and I was also surprised, but I suspect the Scots migration to western Norway plays a huge role here (The Viking age is always overemphasized when it comes to DNA studies on UK/Ireland-Scandinavia relations).. Segment sharing between western Norway and Ireland should be able to answer that though, due to the size of the segments etc... I have a good number of Irish DNA matches via FTDNA, but the size of the segments leads me to think they are post-Viking age...

Heber
12-08-2017, 03:18 PM
A striking result of our admixture analysis is the surprising amount of Norwegian-like ancestry in our Irish clusters. We also detected high levels of Norwegian ancestry in Orcadian and Scottish clusters, and relatively low Norwegian ancestry in English and Welsh clusters. The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b). These areas are noted to be regions where Norse Viking activity originated from8. Whilst this surprising Norwegian signal in Ireland is most likely due to Norwegian admixture into Ireland, indeed this would corroborate with accounts of Irish slave trade in the Viking era29, and Y-chromosomal analysis (unpublished). To test this hypothesis we ran an additional regression admixture analysis, this time modelling Norwegian haplotypes as a mixture of Irish, British, or European haplotypes (Supplementary Data 6). We observe significant proportions of Irish, Scottish, and Orcadian ancestry in modern Norway (6.82%, 2.29%, and 2.13%, respectively), particularly western Norway. This could provide evidence for Irish admixture back into Norway, but could also easily be explained by Norwegian haplotypes existing in Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney. Therefore, we are able to provide an upper estimate of ~20% Norwegian ancestry within Ireland, but unable to provide an empirical lower limit.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4#Fig3

Jessie
12-08-2017, 03:26 PM
Admixture proportions.

http://i66.tinypic.com/oa3uwg.png

evon
12-08-2017, 03:27 PM
The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b).

Western and Northern Norway is precisely where most Scots settled in Norway...


Norway’s ‘Scottish period’ was a period of close sea trade links, migration and intermarriage which lasted many centuries and was at its height in the C15 and C16. Typically, Scots came in search Norwegian timber, which they exchanged for grain and other Scottish commodities.

http://nordlands-stream.com/html/NT1630.html


I can add this link, which is in Nynorsk, but can be translated using google chrome:
https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Skottehandelen_i_Sunnhordland

Note the relationship between Norway, Shetland and Orkney..



Shetland was in many ways in a special position in this trade. The Norse dialect witch was used in use on Shetland or Hjaltland, as it was known. shetlanders and Norwegians had no problem understanding others. Until 1580, shetlendians were seen as Norwegians and was therefore not subject to toll. Lack of customs duties make it difficult to gain insight into the extent of the trade. From 1597 to 1642, a dozen ships from Shetland and Orknøyane in Sunnhordland were recorded quarter of a quarter. There are about one-third of registered ships from Scotland each year, and more than the vessels from Germany and the Netherlands.

Jessie
12-08-2017, 03:28 PM
Admixture proportions.

http://i66.tinypic.com/oa3uwg.png

It actually makes sense if you know the history. The Norse Vikings had kingdoms in Dublin and the Western Isles so by this the highest admixture of Norse is with the Orcadians, Irish and West Scots. They also established the towns of Waterford, Limerick, Cork.

Irish also have the highest French (NW French) and the least German possibly Celtic vs Anglo Saxon ancestry. (S Wales III has the highest French).

Anyway it's a very interesting read.

Heber
12-08-2017, 03:57 PM
As suggested by their nomenclature, the ‘Gaelic’ clusters we have identified are associated with geopolitical regions such as Provinces or historical kingdoms within Ireland. The degree to which the genetic clusters predict these historical groups is remarkable, compared to what is found within the majority of England, for example. These results suggest a lack of widespread movement in the recent history of Ireland, at least to up to the mid-19th century. Additionally the clusters do not appear to have significantly different affinities to ancient Irish genomes, suggesting the structure we observe is not due to different proportions of ancient Irish ancestries. These clusters do however seem to reflect more recent historical events within Ireland. N Munster and SMunster together predict the boundaries of the province of Munster, and individually are associated with the boundaries of the kingdoms of Dál Cais and the Eóganacht13,28, respectively. Furthermore, within Munster, County Clare was originally under the rule of the people of Connacht, until being eventually acquired by Munster28. Our analysis mirrors this history, showing that individuals with recent ancestry from Co Clare are a mixture of genetic groups found both in Munster and in Connacht. In the north of Ireland, historically the people of Ulster (represented by the Uí Néill) and the people of Connacht (muinter Chonnact) have been linked – either by patrilineal ties or as military allies28. This is also mirrored in our clustering, where Connacht is found in areas associated with Ulster rule, and Ulster in areas of Connacht rule. The Ulster cluster itself shows the greatest genetic distance from Britain, in both our PCA and Fst analysis, despite its geographic proximity to Britain. Given that we have identified groups within the north of Ireland that do have genetic links to Britain, i.e. the N Ireland clusters, Ulster most likely represents individuals of ‘Gaelic’ ancestry that have remained genetically isolated from Britain – which reflects the demographic and political history of the region.

The Ulster cluster referenced above is represented by purple crosses “+” in Figure 1 and is on the extreme left of the PCA in supplementary Figure 2.

rozenfeld
12-08-2017, 04:55 PM
There is also a preprint posted today on biorxiv about Ireland:


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/08/230797

Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration

Ross P. Byrne, Rui Martiniano, Lara M. Cassidy, Matthew Carrigan, Garrett Hellenthal, Orla Hardiman, Daniel G Bradley, Russell L McLaughlin

doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/230797

Abstract

Previous studies of the genetic landscape of Ireland have suggested homogeneity, with population substructure undetectable using single-marker methods. Here we have harnessed the haplotype-based method fineSTRUCTURE in an Irish genome-wide SNP dataset, identifying 23 discrete genetic clusters which segregate with geographical provenance. Cluster diversity is pronounced in the west of Ireland but reduced in the east where older structure has been eroded by historical migrations. Accordingly, when populations from the neighbouring island of Britain are included, a west-east cline of Celtic-British ancestry is revealed along with a particularly striking correlation between haplotypes and geography across both islands. A strong relationship is revealed between subsets of Northern Irish and Scottish populations, where discordant genetic and geographic affinities reflect major migrations in recent centuries. Additionally, Irish genetic proximity of all Scottish samples likely reflects older strata of communication across the narrowest inter-island crossing. Using GLOBETROTTER we detected Irish admixture signals from Britain and Europe and estimated dates for events consistent with the historical migrations of the Norse-Vikings, the Anglo-Normans and the British Plantations. The influence of the former is greater than previously estimated from Y chromosome haplotypes. In all, we paint a new picture of the genetic landscape of Ireland, revealing structure which should be considered in the design of studies examining rare genetic variation and its association with traits.

avalon
12-08-2017, 06:45 PM
It actually makes sense if you know the history. The Norse Vikings had kingdoms in Dublin and the Western Isles so by this the highest admixture of Norse is with the Orcadians, Irish and West Scots. They also established the towns of Waterford, Limerick, Cork.

Irish also have the highest French (NW French) and the least German possibly Celtic vs Anglo Saxon ancestry. (S Wales III has the highest French).

Anyway it's a very interesting read.

I would say though, this Norwegian signal in Ireland is probably higher than most people expected, particularly given that the y-dna evidence suggested the Viking input was very low.

It's also interesting that the Norwegian component is fairly even across the whole of Ireland. It's almost as if the Vikings established themselves in certain areas (eg Dublin, etc) and in the following centuries were somehow able to leave a genetic impact across the whole island. Even in Gaelic Ulster, which looks like the most genetically distinct part of Ireland, the Norwegian component is actually higher than in other regions.

Jessie
12-08-2017, 07:25 PM
I would say though, this Norwegian signal in Ireland is probably higher than most people expected, particularly given that the y-dna evidence suggested the Viking input was very low.

It's also interesting that the Norwegian component is fairly even across the whole of Ireland. It's almost as if the Vikings established themselves in certain areas (eg Dublin, etc) and in the following centuries were somehow able to leave a genetic impact across the whole island. Even in Gaelic Ulster, which looks like the most genetically distinct part of Ireland, the Norwegian component is actually higher than in other regions.

Yes it is a surprise that it is so high but there was a Viking graveyard discovered in Sligo so they most likely got around more than people realised.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/lifestyle/vikings-had-a-much-bigger-presence-in-sligo-than-had-been-first-thought-27568729.html

sktibo
12-08-2017, 08:00 PM
Finally! It looks like they added some more samples to Britain and reorganized the categories a bit - an unexpected and pleasant surprise. I'm having trouble with the some of the category labels: on the map they have several "N England I" but on the admixture chart they have N England I-IV. What is really blowing my mind here is that "S Wales III" looks to have more "France" admixture - looks like the one we can assume is the most "Celtic" or indigenous - than any other region, even more than the Irish ones.

It's also very interesting to the Belgium component is significant in every population but that it shrinks in West Scotland and the Irish clusters (which I think look similar enough to group together) the Belgium levels look relatively high in Wales and Orkney, so I wonder if this category represents something related to the P-Celtic peoples?

Some great info on the relationship between Orkney and the other Isles populations here. Now we know why our Irish forum members often get high Orcadian correlations. This has been a long wait for this stuff but certainly worth it.

Pascal C
12-08-2017, 08:09 PM
It actually makes sense if you know the history. The Norse Vikings had kingdoms in Dublin and the Western Isles so by this the highest admixture of Norse is with the Orcadians, Irish and West Scots. They also established the towns of Waterford, Limerick, Cork.

And the Ulster cluster (with no Norse city) has the highest percentage outside of Orkney it seems. Higher, it looks like, than the west Scottish. I better read it and stop shifting my eyes back and forth across that bar chart before I get dizzy

Dubhthach
12-08-2017, 08:26 PM
I would say though, this Norwegian signal in Ireland is probably higher than most people expected, particularly given that the y-dna evidence suggested the Viking input was very low.

It's also interesting that the Norwegian component is fairly even across the whole of Ireland. It's almost as if the Vikings established themselves in certain areas (eg Dublin, etc) and in the following centuries were somehow able to leave a genetic impact across the whole island. Even in Gaelic Ulster, which looks like the most genetically distinct part of Ireland, the Norwegian component is actually higher than in other regions.

Which raises more questions than answers for number of reasons such as:
1. No Viking settlement within what we now term Ulster
2. The Uí Néill and cohorts succesfully defeated most Viking incursions
3. Minimum Norman input into Ulster

Now what is important I should say is that's it evident from first name analysis that form the 10th century onwards that Irish borrowed a large number of personal names from the Norse, this is evident in families such as O'Reilly's etc where you see several norse origin personal names, likewise Middle Irish had norse input with new word formation, which is evident in modern irish to this day, where words often to do with commerce and nautical matters are loanwords from Old Norse and not of Proto-Celtic origin.

Dubhthach
12-08-2017, 08:29 PM
And the Ulster cluster (with no Norse city) has the highest percentage outside of Orkney it seems. Higher, it looks like, than the west Scottish. I better read it and stop shifting my eyes back and forth across that bar chart before I get dizzy

I do wonder if perhaps we are seeing the western isles as a vector for contuined Norse admixture during middle ages, after all the Hebrides underwent language shift from Old Norse to Early Modern Irish/Early Scottish Gaelic. We then see spread of fighting men from western isles into Ireland over a contuinuous period from 1250 to 1600. Perhaps this has resulted in a lowlevel contuined input of Norse derived ancestry, after all for all affairs the 'Kingdom of the Isles' was a Norse-Gael hybrid entity.

Now we need a decent sample of ancient DNA from Iron age/early christian period to compare, if it lacks the putative norse input than at least we can better model input.

Dubhthach
12-08-2017, 08:33 PM
this one is surprise of the day, it seems to have a considerably larger dataset (they weren't restricted by medical requirements of needing 8 great-grandparents from same locality etc.)


We used ChromoPainter [14] to identify haplotypic similarities within a genome-wide single
nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) dataset of individuals from the Republic of Ireland and
Northern Ireland (n=1,035, including 44 from the PoBI study), in which local geographic
origin was known for a subset (n=588). Clustering the resulting coancestry matrix using
fineSTRUCTURE identified 23 clusters, demonstrating local population structure within
Ireland to a level not previously reported, with apparent geographical, sociopolitical and
ancestral correlates (Fig 1). A

CillKenny
12-08-2017, 09:05 PM
Here is what the Byrne et al paper has to say about the Norse

Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish
genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a
significant single-date one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the
Norse-Viking settlements in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was
recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups
within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded
Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and
north Leinster/Ulster

avalon
12-08-2017, 09:08 PM
I think one flaw with this paper is the inability to detect admixture from the Norman invasion of Ireland. We have Norse Viking and Plantation impact but nothing for the Normans.

CillKenny
12-08-2017, 09:11 PM
Byrne et al on lack of Norse ydna signal

This suggests a contribution of historical Viking
settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking
ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The
modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of
drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with
Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable
community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through
recombination.

evon
12-08-2017, 09:35 PM
Byrne et al on lack of Norse ydna signal

This suggests a contribution of historical Viking
settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking
ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The
modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of
drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with
Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable
community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through
recombination.

Seems highly implausible, I have a feeling there is more to this.. Would really like to see some segment matching data between the different populations...

sktibo
12-08-2017, 10:05 PM
I think one flaw with this paper is the inability to detect admixture from the Norman invasion of Ireland. We have Norse Viking and Plantation impact but nothing for the Normans.

Same problem as POBI... seems Norman DNA is undetectable - I believe it may be falling into multiple categories, perhaps as many as France, Belgium, Denmark, and Germany

Pascal C
12-08-2017, 10:28 PM
I do wonder if perhaps we are seeing the western isles as a vector for contuined Norse admixture during middle ages, after all the Hebrides underwent language shift from Old Norse to Early Modern Irish/Early Scottish Gaelic. We then see spread of fighting men from western isles into Ireland over a contuinuous period from 1250 to 1600. Perhaps this has resulted in a lowlevel contuined input of Norse derived ancestry, after all for all affairs the 'Kingdom of the Isles' was a Norse-Gael hybrid entity.

Now we need a decent sample of ancient DNA from Iron age/early christian period to compare, if it lacks the putative norse input than at least we can better model input.

Well I've thought that was probably the reason for the high Norwegian in the Irish since it was first mentioned given the Y DNA absence for high Norse input among native Gaelic names but numerous Hebridean (and Argyll) names in Ireland.
Considering the amount in Ulster it would suggest a much higher % of Norse DNA among folks west of Oban in the past compared to what they show for west Scots presently, and the PCA chart put the Ulster cluster farthest from the British, including the west Scots.

DillonResearcher
12-08-2017, 10:53 PM
Same problem as POBI... seems Norman DNA is undetectable - I believe it may be falling into multiple categories, perhaps as many as France, Belgium, Denmark, and Germany


From my understanding of the Normans and from remember what I think Jim Barry has said in the past many 'Norman' families came from different areas, e.g. the Barry family came from Flanders I think, others from Normandy of course but I don't think it was as clear cut as we tend to think.

razyn
12-08-2017, 11:46 PM
A few years ago when I posted a photo of "The Celtic Viking" jewelry store in Langley, WA, I thought it was a joke -- and I believe others who responded to the post also thought so. I think that was on a WorldFamilies forum.

Maybe that business was just ahead of the testing curve. http://www.celticvikingjewelry.com/

I was just visiting a nephew's vacation house, on that island, and have no commercial ties to the place.

alan
12-09-2017, 12:08 AM
Well I've thought that was probably the reason for the high Norwegian in the Irish since it was first mentioned given the Y DNA absence for high Norse input among native Gaelic names but numerous Hebridean (and Argyll) names in Ireland.
Considering the amount in Ulster it would suggest a much higher % of Norse DNA among folks west of Oban in the past compared to what they show for west Scots presently, and the PCA chart put the Ulster cluster farthest from the British, including the west Scots.

Problem with that is if it was due to Hebridean fighting men in the 1250-1600 period it would e strongly associated with the Ulster and western Connaught as that is where they overwhelmingly settled. However the Norwegian component is said to be evenly spread. You can only really explain it if its a mix of Viking and Medieval Hebridean settlement as the main settlement zone of those who groups are almost mutually exclusive.

CillKenny
12-09-2017, 12:19 AM
Seems highly implausible, I have a feeling there is more to this.. Would really like to see some segment matching data between the different populations...

Evon, I am not sure what you think is implausible? It is the timing? Both studies released today hint at an admixture in the viking era?

Pascal C
12-09-2017, 04:26 AM
Problem with that is if it was due to Hebridean fighting men in the 1250-1600 period it would e strongly associated with the Ulster and western Connaught as that is where they overwhelmingly settled. However the Norwegian component is said to be evenly spread. You can only really explain it if its a mix of Viking and Medieval Hebridean settlement as the main settlement zone of those who groups are almost mutually exclusive.

I didn't mean exclusively as I don't think there was much settlement in Leinster where the Norse were well known to be but Munster has, off the top of my head, at least McSheehys and McSweeneys and Limerick didn't strike me large enough to account for it all. That bar chart has Ulster higher than the rest in the purple Norwegian component, including higher than west Scots, which raises questions if they received it from medieval/early modern Hebrideans, how accurately do the modern west Scots stand in for them. If it doesn't reflect just Hebridean input then what else?

Pascal C
12-09-2017, 04:40 AM
Looking at it again, S Munster seems to be 2nd, with Connacht close behind, in Norwegian purple. The "viking" areas, Dublin, Leinster and N Munster seem to be lower than the non settled ones.

Jessie
12-09-2017, 07:19 AM
Looking at it again, S Munster seems to be 2nd, with Connacht close behind, in Norwegian purple. The "viking" areas, Dublin, Leinster and N Munster seem to be lower than the non settled ones.

I'm guessing some areas might have had less population and could have retained some signals better. The East coast and places like Dublin is where a lot of British settled e.g The Pale. These sort of movements could have slightly altered or increased some different admixture events.

Helgenes50
12-09-2017, 07:27 AM
I'm guessing some areas might have had less population and could have retained some signals better. The East coast and places like Dublin is where a lot of British settled e.g The Pale. These sort of movements could have slightly altered or increased some different admixture events.

Did you see this new paper ?

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...%3Fcollection=

Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration


Abstract

Previous studies of the genetic landscape of Ireland have suggested homogeneity, with population substructure undetectable using single-marker methods. Here we have harnessed the haplotype-based method fineSTRUCTURE in an Irish genome-wide SNP dataset, identifying 23 discrete genetic clusters which segregate with geographical provenance. Cluster diversity is pronounced in the west of Ireland but reduced in the east where older structure has been eroded by historical migrations. Accordingly, when populations from the neighbouring island of Britain are included, a west-east cline of Celtic-British ancestry is revealed along with a particularly striking correlation between haplotypes and geography across both islands. A strong relationship is revealed between subsets of Northern Irish and Scottish populations, where discordant genetic and geographic affinities reflect major migrations in recent centuries. Additionally, Irish genetic proximity of all Scottish samples likely reflects older strata of communication across the narrowest inter-island crossing. Using GLOBETROTTER we detected Irish admixture signals from Britain and Europe and estimated dates for events consistent with the historical migrations of the Norse-Vikings, the Anglo-Normans and the British Plantations. The influence of the former is greater than previously estimated from Y chromosome haplotypes. In all, we paint a new picture of the genetic landscape of Ireland, revealing structure which should be considered in the design of studies examining rare genetic variation and its association with traits.

Heber
12-09-2017, 08:59 AM
There is a wealth of additional data in the supplementary material

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://pin.it/lmdkipvsg4khqw

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-1.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/08/230797.figures-only

https://pin.it/hh7naosdgbv6h7

anglesqueville
12-09-2017, 09:02 AM
Btw, not sure that everybody on here has followed the debate on LukaszM's thread (devoted to his K39 calc), where I expressed my skepticism about the idea of two distinguishable populations "celtic" and "germanic" in the Isles ( to tell it shortly). I confess that those irish texts are a pleasure for me :laugh:

Heber
12-09-2017, 09:07 AM
From Silicon Republic

A team of researchers has helped to construct the first genetic map of the people of Ireland to help us better understand hereditary conditions.

Researchers led by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) and the Genealogical Society of Ireland have published The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland in the journal Scientific Reports.

The research provides the first fine-scale genetic map of Ireland, revealing the first evidence of 10 distinct genetic clusters on the island, which roughly align themselves with the country’s historic provinces and major historic movements of people.

The Irish DNA Atlas was compiled from DNA samples of almost 200 individuals with four generations of ancestry linked to specific areas across the island of Ireland.

These samples were then compared with thousands of samples from across Britain and Europe, revealing seven distinct clusters of ‘Gaelic’ Irish ancestry, and three of shared British-Irish ancestry.

Benefits to historians and genetic research
The RCSI’s Edmund Gilbert, first author on the paper, said of the findings: “Our work informs on Irish history; we have demonstrated that the structure emerging from genetic similarity within Ireland mirrors historical kingdoms of Ireland, and that Ireland acts as a sink of ‘Celtic’ ancestry.

“Additionally, we find evidence of a west-Norwegian-like ancestry that we believe is a signature of the Norse Vikings. We also observe the impact of historical events, such as the Ulster Plantations, on the DNA of the people of Ireland.”

The benefits to historians will be substantial, the team said, as we can now see the movements and interrelationships of our ancestor groups through their DNA.

This potentially opens up many new research opportunities, particularly for those researching the Irish medieval genealogies and the history of Irish clans.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/first-irish-genetic-map-rcsi

CillKenny
12-09-2017, 09:41 AM
There is a wealth of additional data in the supplementary material

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://pin.it/lmdkipvsg4khqw

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-1.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/08/230797.figures-only

https://pin.it/hh7naosdgbv6h7

Gerard,

Am I correct in interpreting the figure on the top of page 12 of Eds Supplementary Material, relating to affinity to the Ballynahatty sample, that S Munster is the closest to the oldest population groups in Ireland?

Pat

Shaikorth
12-09-2017, 10:21 AM
Gerard,

Am I correct in interpreting the figure on the top of page 12 of Eds Supplementary Material, relating to affinity to the Ballynahatty sample, that S Munster is the closest to the oldest population groups in Ireland?

Pat

At the very least its ancient Ballynahatty-like haplotypes are the most intact, but these are not diluted by just admixture from other groups. It's apparent that genetic drift replaces ancestral haplotypes with drifted "shaped like itself" haplotypes. This is likely why Orkney and N. Wales tend to have lower haplotype sharing with both farmers and BB-types than everyone else in the isles, their haplotypes are becoming "Orcadian" or "N.Welsh" specific faster due to drift. There are ways to get around this, for example modeling the populations as mixtures of haplotypes from Ballynahatty, Rathlin and some other ancient and then comparing the proportions instead of doing a direct comparison to see who shares the most Ballynahatty and so on. This will migitate the effect of drift in tested populations, as their recent unique haplotypes do not enter the comparison.

evon
12-09-2017, 10:29 AM
Evon, I am not sure what you think is implausible? It is the timing? Both studies released today hint at an admixture in the viking era?

It is the over simplified interpretation of the results that makes me doubt their conclusion (allot of things happened between the Viking age and the present era, and the various admixture could be via another source and not directly from Norway/Ireland etc..), but I am sure I will have my answer when this latest study is released in full..

evon
12-09-2017, 10:36 AM
There is a wealth of additional data in the supplementary material

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://pin.it/lmdkipvsg4khqw

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-1.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/08/230797.figures-only

https://pin.it/hh7naosdgbv6h7

Just had a quick look at "276 Supplementary Figure 6 – Ancestry profiles of 12 Norwegian populations";
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

That told me allot about this study and not in a positive way... Note the Polish and German, as well as the Spain and French etc.. jeez..talk about missing the toilet bowl... Will have to look at this some more, but I have a feeling that they have made a few mistakes in terms of identifying the various clusters/populations of influence...

For those of you who are not familiar with western Norwegian history, it is important to know that the biggest immigrant groups here were Germans, Danes and Scots.

Pascal C
12-09-2017, 10:40 AM
I'm guessing some areas might have had less population and could have retained some signals better. The East coast and places like Dublin is where a lot of British settled e.g The Pale. These sort of movements could have slightly altered or increased some different admixture events.

Yep, and whatever was in the other non Norse settled areas, as has been mentioned many times, may reflect added input from Gall Gael areas. The amount in comparison to west Scots is what's puzzling but now that I think of it, it was the upper class islesmen who sailed off in the galleys for Irish wars and most likely were represented disproportionately among the ones that moved permanently after losing lands. So they probably had a good bit more Scandinavian heritage than isle serfs tilling soil and gathering moss (pun intended) and periwinkles. Settlement and interbreeding with those upper class might account for at least some of the high amount relative to Scots.


Btw, not sure that everybody on here has followed the debate on LukaszM's thread (devoted to his K39 calc), where I expressed my skepticism about the idea of two distinguishable populations "celtic" and "germanic" in the Isles ( to tell it shortly). I confess that those irish texts are a pleasure for me :laugh:

Those components, I assume, are the same or similar as the POBI study, reflecting genes common in modern European locations but that may reflect prehistoric movements into the British Isles, so while some may say "Germany" they may reflect very old movement such as German 6 in POBI.

Jessie
12-09-2017, 10:56 AM
Can someone explain this in more depth? Looking at the dendrogram it appears Connacht is closest to the Central Leinster cluster.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qkuz68.jpg

Jessie
12-09-2017, 11:03 AM
Just had a quick look at "276 Supplementary Figure 6 – Ancestry profiles of 12 Norwegian populations";
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

That told me allot about this study and not in a positive way... Note the Polish and German, as well as the Spain and Welsh etc.. jeez..talk about missing the toilet bowl... Will have to look at this some more, but I have a feeling that they have made a few mistakes in terms of identifying the various clusters/populations of influence...

Evon can you please state how you interpret it? Thanks.

evon
12-09-2017, 11:24 AM
Evon can you please state how you interpret it? Thanks.

I think that they have fallen into the same trap that most first generation amateur admixture calculators fell into, mainly that they are unable to correctly identify the various "clusters"/"influences". As there is no way that western Norwegians have more Polish than German influence, or more Spanish than Scottish influence and so on.. The biggest influencing groups should be Danish, German and Scottish, but most admixture calculators are unable to correctly identify these three groups so, as an example, most western Norwegians come out as a mixture between "British/Irish" and "Scandinavian" according to the various DNA companies (FTDNA, 23andme, etc).

Shaikorth
12-09-2017, 11:32 AM
I think that they have fallen into the same trap that most first generation amateur admixture calculators fell into, mainly that they are unable to correctly identify the various "clusters"/"influences". As there is no way that western Norwegians have more Polish than German influence, or more Spanish than Scottish influence and so on.. The biggest influencing groups should be Danish, German and Scottish, but most admixture calculators are unable to correctly identify these three groups so, as an example, most western Norwegians come out as a mixture between "British/Irish" and "Scandinavian" according to the various DNA companies (FTDNA, 23andme, etc).

The figures in the supplements aren't ADMIXTURE-based, it's a fine-scale haplotype modeling. I think the issue here is that Germans are not homogenous, if the German cluster represents people from German subpopulations that did not contribute to Norway, the German in Norwegians might show up as a mix of Danish, French, Polish and even Spanish.

evon
12-09-2017, 11:42 AM
The figures in the supplements aren't ADMIXTURE-based, it's a fine-scale haplotype modeling. I think the issue here is that Germans are not homogenous, if the German cluster represents people from German subpopulations that did not contribute to Norway, the German in Norwegians might show up as a mix of Danish, French, Polish and even Spanish.

I am not familiar with the finer details of haplotype modeling, but the results mirror early admixture calculators, so much so that it was the first thing that came to mind when I looked at the results.. The error you describe is essentially the same one as I mentioned (although the underlying method might be quite different), mainly that they are unable to correctly identify and label components (be that admixture or haplotype). It is precisely why Norwegians usually come out as a mixture between British and Scandinavian, where notably the German (and to a degree the Danish), are incorporated into the British cluster (also to a degree the Scandinavian cluster). The resulting problem is also somewhat similar to the problem as when Oracle tried to model a person according to various populations...

Shaikorth
12-09-2017, 11:53 AM
I am not familiar with the finer details of haplotype modeling, but the results mirror early admixture calculators, so much so that it was the first thing that came to mind when I looked at the results.. The error you describe is essentially the same one as I mentioned (although the underlying method might be quite different), mainly that they are unable to correctly identify and label components (be that admixture or haplotype). It is precisely why Norwegians usually come out as a mixture between British and Scandinavian, where notably the German (and to a degree the Danish), are incorporated into the British cluster (also to a degree the Scandinavian cluster). The resulting problem is also somewhat similar to the problem as when Oracle tried to model a person according to various populations...

A German population simultaneously distinguishable from Danish and more similar to the German migrants to Norway than a combination of Danes and various other Europeans might not even exist in modern days, it doesn't take a long time for drift and admixture to change haplotype structure since we are talking about North-Central European populations that were very similar to begin with.

Dubhthach
12-09-2017, 02:05 PM
Can someone explain this in more depth? Looking at the dendrogram it appears Connacht is closest to the Central Leinster cluster.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qkuz68.jpg

Connachta / Southern Uí Néill ;)

There's also the point that the dialects of what we call 'North Leinster' (reality the ancient province of Meath) show connection, so for example Irish spoken in Westmeath would have shared dialectical features with Roscommon etc.

CillKenny
12-09-2017, 02:07 PM
Can someone explain this in more depth? Looking at the dendrogram it appears Connacht is closest to the Central Leinster cluster.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qkuz68.jpg

Jessie,

I read that the same way. It contrasts with the Irish DNA Atlas which places Leinster closest to Central Leinster with Connacht (and Dublin) one step back.

Pat

Heber
12-09-2017, 02:25 PM
Gerard,

Am I correct in interpreting the figure on the top of page 12 of Eds Supplementary Material, relating to affinity to the Ballynahatty sample, that S Munster is the closest to the oldest population groups in Ireland?

Pat

Yes, Ballynahatty is closest to S. Munster and Rathlin is closest to Dublin and Connacht.

We decided to compare the Atlas Irish individuals in our sample to two previously
228 published[12] high coverage ancient Irish genomes; a Neolithic farmer (Ballynahatty) and a Bronze
229 Age individual (Rathlin1). The authors of the aforementioned authors found the greatest affinity to
230 the modern Irish was found in the Bronze Age individual studied. We set out to investigate whether
231 any particular region in Ireland as represented in our Atlas Irish individuals and Irish fineStructure
232 clusters shared an affinity to either of the ancient Irish individuals.
233 We found the intersect of common shared SNPs between the individuals included in the
234 fineStructure analysis of Population Structure within Ireland (see methods for more detail)
235 individually for each ancient Irish individual (see Table S3 for SNP overlaps).

We observe that the majority of clusters within Ireland and Britain share a similar affinity with Ballynahatty, with no significant differences between individual Irish clusters (Supplementary Fig. 4a). The highest haplotypic donations for Rathlin1 are to modern ‘Celtic-speaking’ populations, i.e. Ireland, Wales, and Scotland. Though no donations to ‘Irish’ clusters appear significantly different from each other, both Connacht and Dublin do show the highest affinity with Rathlin1 (Supplementary Fig. 4b). These results suggest a homogenous contribution of these two ancient genomes to contemporary genetic structure in Ireland.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 06:20 PM
So which areas in Ireland is this suggesting have the most and least foreign influence, and what are those foreign influences?

To me it seems like parts of Munster are highly isolated from the rest of Ireland, and Connacht is close to Leinster, which means Connacht is, as I have long suggested, not as isolated as we thought.

Jessie
12-09-2017, 06:37 PM
So which areas in Ireland is this suggesting have the most and least foreign influence, and what are those foreign influences?

To me it seems like parts of Munster are highly isolated from the rest of Ireland, and Connacht is close to Leinster, which means Connacht is, as I have long suggested, not as isolated as we thought.

South Munster appears to have retained the most ancient genetics.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 06:40 PM
South Munster appears to have retained the most ancient genetics.

Why is Ulster isolated then? It appears on the PCA, Munster and Ulster are isolated, whereas Connacht/Leinster drift toward Britain. Is this what you see, too?

Dubhthach
12-09-2017, 06:48 PM
Why is Ulster isolated then? It appears on the PCA, Munster and Ulster are isolated, whereas Connacht/Leinster drift toward Britain. Is this what you see, too?

I would have thought a glance at Irish history during the 13th and 14th century would have made that obvious.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/map_1250.gif

20340

avalon
12-09-2017, 06:49 PM
So which areas in Ireland is this suggesting have the most and least foreign influence, and what are those foreign influences?

To me it seems like parts of Munster are highly isolated from the rest of Ireland, and Connacht is close to Leinster, which means Connacht is, as I have long suggested, not as isolated as we thought.

Well if you look at this PCA from the 'Insular Celtic population' paper N Leinster/Ulster appears to be slightly more shifted along PC1 than South Munster, although there isn't much in it. And actually Connacht occupies a similar space on the chart too.

20339

Dubhthach
12-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Problem with that is if it was due to Hebridean fighting men in the 1250-1600 period it would e strongly associated with the Ulster and western Connaught as that is where they overwhelmingly settled. However the Norwegian component is said to be evenly spread. You can only really explain it if its a mix of Viking and Medieval Hebridean settlement as the main settlement zone of those who groups are almost mutually exclusive.

Well we had Gallowglasses all over Ireland, for example the revitalised 'Kingdom of Leinster' in the 14th/15th century (expanding out of North Wexford/Wicklow) had hereditary Gallowglasses in shape of a branch of the McDonnell's (standard angliscation for Mac Domhnaill in Ireland)


They formed a military clan under their own chiefs who were often of high rank, and in reward for their services obtained grants of land in different parts of the country. In this way they seem to have formed a permanent settlement in Leinster as early as the middle of the 15th century, and acquired considerable estates in Leix and the present Co. of Wicklow.

Of course there are a number of distinct McDonnell family some of which are Gaelic Irish in origin (particulary the family of Monaghan/Fermanagh border)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/McDonnell.png

Interesting the large number of Sweeney (another good Gallowglass surname) in Cork back in mid 19th century:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Sweeney.png

Dubhthach
12-09-2017, 07:03 PM
I'm not sure why people are claiming that Connacht would be more isolated? What due to high persistence of the Irish language in the 19th century throughout the province? Most 'Cambro-Norman's' underwent language shift to Irish, so much so that by the time the Tudor conquest started most of people who we now term 'Old English' could speak Irish, if anything even within the Pale some of them prefered using Irish to English, this was remarked on by the 'New English' of the Tudor administration.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 07:13 PM
I'm not sure why people are claiming that Connacht would be more isolated? What due to high persistence of the Irish language in the 19th century throughout the province? Most 'Cambro-Norman's' underwent language shift to Irish, so much so that by the time the Tudor conquest started most of people who we now term 'Old English' could speak Irish, if anything even within the Pale some of them prefered using Irish to English, this was remarked on by the 'New English' of the Tudor administration.

Due to geographical isolation, highest rate of R1b, and so on probably.



Well if you look at this PCA from the 'Insular Celtic population' paper N Leinster/Ulster appears to be slightly more shifted along PC1 than South Munster, although there isn't much in it. And actually Connacht occupies a similar space on the chart too.

20339

There was a dendrogram in the study putting Connacht with Leinster and closer to Britain so I am unsure why it is different there ^^

Here, Connacht and especially the Sligo outlier are closer to Britain.

https://i.imgur.com/RffQfxf.png

Heber
12-09-2017, 07:39 PM
“The figure at the top of this post shows how well they can cluster individuals geographically: they’ve basically recapitulated the “map of the British Isles.” There aren’t too many surprises. Western Ireland seems to exhibit greater genetic differences as a function of distance. Probably because it’s less developed, and perhaps because it has been less impacted by outsiders. Ulster and southern Scotland are strongly connected genetically. There are two issues going on here. First, the famous migration of Protestants into this region of Ireland from Scotland and northern England that occurred after the conquest of the 16th century. And second, the earlier migration of Irish to Scotland, which resulted in the creation of the Dal Riata kingdom.”

https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/12/08/the-saxon-panmixia/?fb_action_ids=10211410676246529&fb_action_types=rightrelevance%3Adiscover&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B203789653525486%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22rightrelevance%3Adiscover%22 %5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

fridurich
12-09-2017, 08:18 PM
A striking result of our admixture analysis is the surprising amount of Norwegian-like ancestry in our Irish clusters. We also detected high levels of Norwegian ancestry in Orcadian and Scottish clusters, and relatively low Norwegian ancestry in English and Welsh clusters. The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b). These areas are noted to be regions where Norse Viking activity originated from8. Whilst this surprising Norwegian signal in Ireland is most likely due to Norwegian admixture into Ireland, indeed this would corroborate with accounts of Irish slave trade in the Viking era29, and Y-chromosomal analysis (unpublished). To test this hypothesis we ran an additional regression admixture analysis, this time modelling Norwegian haplotypes as a mixture of Irish, British, or European haplotypes (Supplementary Data 6). We observe significant proportions of Irish, Scottish, and Orcadian ancestry in modern Norway (6.82%, 2.29%, and 2.13%, respectively), particularly western Norway. This could provide evidence for Irish admixture back into Norway, but could also easily be explained by Norwegian haplotypes existing in Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney. Therefore, we are able to provide an upper estimate of ~20% Norwegian ancestry within Ireland, but unable to provide an empirical lower limit.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4#Fig3

To me this is surprising that an upper limit of 20 percent Norwegian ancestry in the Irish was found, but I don't disagree with their findings. This shows the fallacy of relying only on the presence of YDNA Viking haplotypes to predict how much Viking admixture there was.

In the past, I thought that the average Irishman should have some Viking blood. The annals mention Irish nobles and Viking noble females marrying, and I think, vice versa. Considering how many generations back in time it was to even as late as 1000 A.D., that would be about 30 generations. This doesn't even take into consideration when Vikings first settled in Ireland, maybe in the early 800s A.D.?

I think some of the Viking blood also came through the Gallowglass warriors from the Western Isles of Scotland. It is well know these Gallowglass warriors intermarried with the Irish. I think some of the annals or other records mention such marriages. Also, I think some of the Norwegian blood came through the Normans, who we know married extensively with the Irish. However, I feel like the majority of the Norman's genetics wasn't from Norway, but could be a mix of Norwegian, Breton, other French, Welsh, etc.

Kind Regards

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 08:21 PM
To me this is surprising that an upper limit of 20 percent Norwegian ancestry in the Irish was found, but I don't disagree with their findings. This shows the fallacy of relying only on the presence of YDNA Viking haplotypes to predict how much Viking admixture there was.

In the past, I thought that the average Irishman should have some Viking blood. The annals mention Irish nobles and Viking noble females marrying, and I think, vice versa. Considering how many generations back in time it was to even as late as 1000 A.D., that would be about 30 generations. This doesn't even take into consideration when Vikings first settled in Ireland, maybe in the early 800s A.D.?

I think some of the Viking blood also came through the Gallowglass warriors from the Western Isles of Scotland. It is well know these Gallowglass warriors intermarried with the Irish. I think some of the annals or other records mention such marriages. Also, I think some of the Norwegian blood came through the Normans, who we know married extensively with the Irish. However, I feel like the majority of the Norman's genetics wasn't from Norway, but could be a mix of Norwegian, Breton, other French, Welsh, etc.

Kind Regards



Norman would more likely be connected to Danes rather than Norwegians.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 08:36 PM
It is important to note Normans mixed heavily wherever they went before moving to another place.

Normans descended from Danes settled in France, who then went through southern Britain and then into Ireland. So by the time they got to Ireland, Normans were heavily mixed with French and Brits.

Similarly, Normans in Sicily were mixed with French and Italians, so the Danish ancestry in Sicily was already so low. Then, by the time they made their way to the coastal Levant, the Danish admixture was even lower, hence Lebanese and coastal Syrians have almost no Danish ancestry but traces of Italo-Celtic type DNA from the Crusades.

fridurich
12-09-2017, 08:40 PM
It is important to note Normans mixed heavily wherever they went before moving to another place.

Normans descended from Danes settled in France, who then went through southern Britain and then into Ireland. So by the time they got to Ireland, Normans were heavily mixed with French and Brits.

Similarly, Normans in Sicily were mixed with French and Italians, so the Danish ancestry in Sicily was already so low. Then, by the time they made their way to the coastal Levant, the Danish admixture was even lower, hence Lebanese and coastal Syrians have almost no Danish ancestry but traces of Italo-Celtic type DNA from the Crusades.

Thanks, that is very interesting!

avalon
12-09-2017, 08:45 PM
There was a dendrogram in the study putting Connacht with Leinster and closer to Britain so I am unsure why it is different there ^^

Here, Connacht and especially the Sligo outlier are closer to Britain.

https://i.imgur.com/RffQfxf.png

Well, there are two different studies here, both analysing the same data in different ways. I suppose the dendrogram with tree branches is a somewhat different way of presentation to the PCA charts.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 08:55 PM
Thanks, that is very interesting!

Basically when we say that Irish, Brits, Sicilians, Levantine Arabs have "Norman" and "Crusader" ancestry we should expect their actual Scandinavian influence from that admixture to be very low.

Dewsloth
12-09-2017, 09:14 PM
It is important to note Normans mixed heavily wherever they went before moving to another place.

Normans descended from Danes settled in France, who then went through southern Britain and then into Ireland. So by the time they got to Ireland, Normans were heavily mixed with French and Brits.

Similarly, Normans in Sicily were mixed with French and Italians, so the Danish ancestry in Sicily was already so low. Then, by the time they made their way to the coastal Levant, the Danish admixture was even lower, hence Lebanese and coastal Syrians have almost no Danish ancestry but traces of Italo-Celtic type DNA from the Crusades.

Sorry for the semi-o/t but that Norman might be what’s showing up as the “Anglo-Saxon” category in the K39:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12788-New-K30-World-calculator&p=322130&viewfull=1#post322130

avalon
12-09-2017, 09:14 PM
At the very least its ancient Ballynahatty-like haplotypes are the most intact, but these are not diluted by just admixture from other groups. It's apparent that genetic drift replaces ancestral haplotypes with drifted "shaped like itself" haplotypes. This is likely why Orkney and N. Wales tend to have lower haplotype sharing with both farmers and BB-types than everyone else in the isles, their haplotypes are becoming "Orcadian" or "N.Welsh" specific faster due to drift. There are ways to get around this, for example modeling the populations as mixtures of haplotypes from Ballynahatty, Rathlin and some other ancient and then comparing the proportions instead of doing a direct comparison to see who shares the most Ballynahatty and so on. This will migitate the effect of drift in tested populations, as their recent unique haplotypes do not enter the comparison.

You seem to have a very good grasp on all of this, you're not a professional by any chance? :)

If you wouldn't mind explaining something for me in layman's terms - the Insular Celtic paper used something called t-distributed stochastic neighbour embedding (that's easy for you to say!) t-SNE which produced the following chart. It looks like a PCA but is it really any different? This paper also presents different components from PC1 up to PC4 and then this t-SNE, all using fineSTRUCTURE and it presents several charts (figures 1-4) that appear slightly different to each other, confusing to the say the least. I suppose it just shows there are many different ways to analyse genetic differences.

20343

Pascal C
12-09-2017, 09:23 PM
It is important to note Normans mixed heavily wherever they went before moving to another place.

Normans descended from Danes settled in France, who then went through southern Britain and then into Ireland. So by the time they got to Ireland, Normans were heavily mixed with French and Brits.

Similarly, Normans in Sicily were mixed with French and Italians, so the Danish ancestry in Sicily was already so low. Then, by the time they made their way to the coastal Levant, the Danish admixture was even lower, hence Lebanese and coastal Syrians have almost no Danish ancestry but traces of Italo-Celtic type DNA from the Crusades.

Add to that many "Normans" that invaded England weren't even from Normandy, just looking for sword land or friends, relations of William 1 and it gets more nebulous. Normans are generally considered a minority in William's army. Add in the later Anjou folks and the imperial followers too.

fridurich
12-09-2017, 09:30 PM
Something that is surprising to me is the implied genetic closeness of the Irish to Orkney which is shown on the dendrogram here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4/figures/1

However, in the supplementary material, when you go here https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf and look at supplementary figure 2, the PCA chart shows that W. Scotland 1's dark circles are closer to many of the Irish than any other British cluster, and the Orkney cluster is way far from Ireland (at least on Principal Component 2)! I do see where Orkney is in about the same position as Ireland on Principal Component 1, if I'm interpreting this right.

Interesting that the W. Scotland 1 cluster, which the Irish DNA Atlas writers say represents Gaelic speaking West Scotland (the Highlands and Western Isles, I assume) is so far away from the Ulster Irish cluster, but is close to the Leinster, Dublin, and other Irish clusters, except Ulster. The Western Scots 1 cluster is also shown to be close to the 3 Planter clusters, which all have some Gaelic Irish ancestry.

I know the authors said something about the Irish clusters and Orkney may be placed so close to each other on the dendrogram because they both have the same genetic distance from the other British clusters, and that the Orkneys high Norwegian ancestral input, may also account for the Irish being on the same branch as the Orcadians in the dendrogram.

So, what countries or regions do you all think the test results show are the most closest related to the Irish (as a whole)? Way back in this thread the Irish DNA Atlas had one PCA chart that appeared to show that the Irish, in general, were more closely related to the Scots, in general. Do you all feel that the Orcadians are the most closely related to the Irish?

I'm not an expert and welcome all reasonable input.

Kind Regards

Shaikorth
12-09-2017, 09:38 PM
You seem to have a very good grasp on all of this, you're not a professional by any chance? :)

If you wouldn't mind explaining something for me in layman's terms - the Insular Celtic paper used something called t-distributed stochastic neighbour embedding (that's easy for you to say!) t-SNE which produced the following chart. It looks like a PCA but is it really any different? This paper presents different components from PC1 up to PC4 and then this t-SNE, all using fineSTRUCTURE and it presents several charts (figures 1-4) that appear slightly different to each other, confusing to the say the least. I suppose it just shows there are many different ways to analyse genetic differences.

20343

As they put it in the paper, a two-dimensional t-SNE plot summarizes more of the overall differences between groups than those described by any two principal components, although the relative group sizes, positions and distances on the plot are less straightforward to interpret so it should be more informative than a PCA, even PCA using the most informative dimensions 1 and 2 instead of 1 and 4 which is the most similar to that one. Different runs also produce different solutions, although they say that their figure is a representative result so most of the plots they created likely looked similar.

Basically they say t-SNE plot should be more informative than a PCA done on the same data, and it isn't hard to believe if you compare it to the most informative PCA's provided with the same data (fig.4). 1 and 2 show the populations as a very simple cline with Orcadians standing out (due to drift). 1 and 3 same with Welsh instead of Orcadians. Dimension 4 is in theory less informative, but it sure does correspond more to British Isles geography than 2 or 3.

This is not to say t-SNE is immune to effects of drift, the positions of North and South Wales are almost certainly due to drift and not divergent ancestry. Here we see North and South Wales modeled with non-British Isles populations as the only sources of ancestry, which as I said should eliminate local drift. If you look at North and South Wales, the differences between them are minor compared to what they show in relation to English, which means that their extremely divergent positions on t-SNE are most likely caused by local drift.
http://i66.tinypic.com/oa3uwg.png

However, unlike PCA it does not compress other British and Irish subpopulations into a simple cline when showing the distinctiveness of Orcadians and Welsh. This is IMO confirmation of its greater informativeness compared to a single PCA plot, to make an analogy it is more like PCA dimensions 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4 in one plot.

Sikeliot
12-09-2017, 10:04 PM
Sorry for the semi-o/t but that Norman might be what’s showing up as the “Anglo-Saxon” category in the K39:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12788-New-K30-World-calculator&p=322130&viewfull=1#post322130

Yes. Notice it is higher in both your mother and the other Lebanese than in Palestinians. And it might even be higher in Lebanese Muslims.

Though if you consider some of it could be filtering through into Italian and other categories, since the Normans in the Levant were mixed with Romance-speaking Europeans, the total impact from the Crusades is likely higher.

Pascal C
12-09-2017, 10:05 PM
Something that is surprising to me is the implied genetic closeness of the Irish to Orkney which is shown on the dendrogram here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4/figures/1

However, in the supplementary material, when you go here https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf and look at supplementary figure 2, the PCA chart shows that W. Scotland 1's dark circles are closer to many of the Irish than any other British cluster, and the Orkney cluster is way far from Ireland (at least on Principal Component 2)! I do see where Orkney is in about the same position as Ireland on Principal Component 1, if I'm interpreting this right.

Interesting that the W. Scotland 1 cluster, which the Irish DNA Atlas writers say represents Gaelic speaking West Scotland (the Highlands and Western Isles, I assume) is so far away from the Ulster Irish cluster, but is close to the Leinster, Dublin, and other Irish clusters, except Ulster. The Western Scots 1 cluster is also shown to be close to the 3 Planter clusters, which all have some Gaelic Irish ancestry.

I know the authors said something about the Irish clusters and Orkney may be placed so close to each other on the dendrogram because they both have the same genetic distance from the other British clusters, and that the Orkneys high Norwegian ancestral input, may also account for the Irish being on the same branch as the Orcadians in the dendrogram.

So, what countries or regions do you all think the test results show are the most closest related to the Irish (as a whole)? Way back in this thread the Irish DNA Atlas had one PCA chart that appeared to show that the Irish, in general, were more closely related to the Scots, in general. Do you all feel that the Orcadians are the most closely related to the Irish?

I'm not an expert and welcome all reasonable input.

Kind Regards

I noticed that too last night. It would seem given the long history of migration and intermarriage back and forth between Ulster and Scotland that west Scots and Ulster Irish should be close (as supposed via POBI W Scotland/N Ireland clusters in Ulster) but the branches shown surprised me. No I don't think Orcadians are closest to Ireland. There's no big historical record connecting them I can think of after Sigurd being rendered hors de combat at Clontarf.

fridurich
12-09-2017, 10:35 PM
I noticed that too last night. It would seem given the long history of migration and intermarriage back and forth between Ulster and Scotland that west Scots and Ulster Irish should be close (as supposed via POBI W Scotland/N Ireland clusters in Ulster) but the branches shown surprised me. No I don't think Orcadians are closest to Ireland. There's no big historical record connecting them I can think of after Sigurd being rendered hors de combat at Clontarf.

Yes, I remember when POBI had a little symbol that represented both the Gaelic Scots of Western Isles and Highlands and the Gaelic Irish of Ulster and they showed that this cluster was in both Ulster and Western Scotland. So, W Scotland/N Ireland sounds like what they called it. Interestingly, they had the Planter cluster(s) (in Ulster and Scotland), and the Gaelic cluster (in Ulster and W Scotland) as closest to each other than any of the other British clusters on their dendrogram.

I agree, I don't think that the Orcadians are the closest related group to the Irish, even though both have elevated levels of Norwegian ancestry. Except for the Viking excursions from Orkney to Ireland, there appears to be little contact between the two that I know of. Other than that, the Orkneys seem kind of isolated from Ireland. I still think, in general, Ireland has some degree of genetic closeness to Scotland. That genetic distance may be closer, or farther away from each other, depending on which Irish clusters are being compared to which Scottish clusters.

Kind Regards

sktibo
12-10-2017, 12:01 AM
I got the impression from the article that the Orcadians were close to the Irish due to shared Scandinavian ancestry, not overall ancestry

Pascal C
12-10-2017, 12:01 AM
Yes, I remember when POBI had a little symbol that represented both the Gaelic Scots of Western Isles and Highlands and the Gaelic Irish of Ulster and they showed that this cluster was in both Ulster and Western Scotland. So, W Scotland/N Ireland sounds like what they called it. Interestingly, they had the Planter cluster(s) (in Ulster and Scotland), and the Gaelic cluster (in Ulster and W Scotland) as closest to each other than any of the other British clusters on their dendrogram.

I agree, I don't think that the Orcadians are the closest related group to the Irish, even though both have elevated levels of Norwegian ancestry. Except for the Viking excursions from Orkney to Ireland, there appears to be little contact between the two that I know of. Other than that, the Orkneys seem kind of isolated from Ireland. I still think, in general, Ireland has some degree of genetic closeness to Scotland. That genetic distance may be closer, or farther away from each other, depending on which Irish clusters are being compared to which Scottish clusters.

Kind Regards

I also wonder if some of the Northern Ireland 2 group may represent "natives" in Ulster.
The Northern Ireland 1 group only shows up in Dublin and around Bantry:noidea: on the map, but there was something written about them mentioning 1 tester being from southern Ireland. Does that symbol represent only 1 person?

The Northern Ireland 3 cluster only shows up around Derry, Belfast and Dublin and mostly in N England with a trend toward Cumbria.

Meanwhile there seems to be a lot of the Dublin cluster in Northern Ireland, from the Route, Belfast and in N Tyrone, it looks like.
Could it also possibly just be unrelated migrations/intermixing of people with similar backgrounds?

fridurich
12-10-2017, 01:11 AM
Western and Northern Norway is precisely where most Scots settled in Norway...


http://nordlands-stream.com/html/NT1630.html


I can add this link, which is in Nynorsk, but can be translated using google chrome:
https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Skottehandelen_i_Sunnhordland

Note the relationship between Norway, Shetland and Orkney..

Thanks for your post.

I notice that you mention Scottish immigration to Norway as the reason why Western Norway resembles Ireland autosomal DNA wise.

Where in Scotland did most of these immigrants to Norway come from? There are a number of Scottish autosomal clusters, and some of them aren't real close genetically to most of the Irish. For example, if many or most of them came from Southeast Scotland, then they could have very low Celtic ancestry, but very high Germanic (Angles and Saxons from England) ancestry. I suspect that many of them came from the port cities like Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc.

The genetic clusters around Aberdeen and Edinburgh aren't real close to most of the Irish clusters. Glasgow, being not that far from Ayrshire and Galloway, where Gaelic used to be spoken, could have some immigrants that were close genetically to the Irish.

The Irish DNA Atlas article says that some of the genetic similarity between Ireland and Western Norway could be due to Irish going to Norway (mainly as slaves, or POWs I suppose.) However, they say or indicate they think the main source of the Norwegian input into Ireland was from the Vikings. Their isn't a real high percentage of Irish ancestry shown in Norway.

In the supplementary material, the authors of the Irish DNA Atlas explain the techniques they used to arrive at the conclusion that there was significant Viking input in Ireland. Seems like the Globetrotter software was one thing used to affirm their results.

Also, Ireland is lumped closer to Orkney than they are to any other country or region on the dendrogram. I don't think this is due to the Orcadians being more closely related to the Irish than any other country or region is, but, I do take note that Orkney has a lot of Norwegian ancestry. I think because of Orkney having elevated Norwegian ancestry, that is why they are grouped so close to the Irish on the dendrogram.

The Viking invasions of Ireland are the only event that history records where large numbers of Norwegians came to Ireland. Even if you go back as late as 1000 A.D., that would be a minimum of 30 generations. Plenty of time for the Viking genetics to get mixed throughout Ireland. Seems like the first Viking settlements in Ireland were in the early 9th century A.D.

Additionally, the authors of the Irish DNA Atlas article say that part of the Norwegian input could be explained by the immigration of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries and Redshanks from the Western Isles of Scotland (from about the 13th century A.D to about 1600 A.D.). These Gallowglass warriors were part Gaelic and part Viking. The Gallowglass intermarried with the Irish. But, the authors still appear to say that most of the Norwegian genetic input in Ireland was from the Vikings.

They also mentioned that some of the input into Ireland could have come from the Normans, but, it was mainly Danish Vikings who who settled in Normandy. These Vikings intermarried with the Bretons and other French, and many of them also intermarried with the Welsh before coming to Ireland. So, I think most of the Normans in Ireland had no, or very little Norwegian genetic input.

Kind Regards

fridurich
12-10-2017, 03:19 AM
Was anyone else besides me surprised that all three of the Planter clusters in Northern Ireland had substantial amounts of Gaelic Irish ancestry? The authors of the Irish DNA Atlas article mention their techniques for discovering this in the electronic supplementary material.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

However, in the next to the last paragraph under the "Discussion" section, the authors also say or indicate that some of this admixture could be caused by migrations before the 17th and 18th Centuries A.D. (before the Ulster Plantations) from Scotland to Ulster or vice versa. They specifically mention the migration of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries and numerous Redshanks (from about the 13th Century A. D. to about 1600 A. D.).

So, I believe that most of this admixture happened some time during the 17th and 18th centuries A. D. (like their calculations indicate), with some of it occurring during the Gallowglass migration into Ireland, also from some of the Normans or their retinue (although there weren't large numbers of Normans in Ulster), and some of it as far back as the kingdom of Dal Riada.

In the 13th century, Alan and Thomas of Galloway had some lands in Ulster, but I don't know if they were there long enough for their colonies to have any genetic input. They were said to be descendants of Fergus, a ruler of Galloway.

Kind Regards

Pascal C
12-10-2017, 03:56 AM
I notice that you mention Scottish immigration to Norway as the reason why Western Norway resembles Ireland autosomal DNA wise.

Where in Scotland did most of these immigrants to Norway come from? There are a number of Scottish autosomal clusters, and some of them aren't real close genetically to most of the Irish. For example, if many or most of them came from Southeast Scotland, then they could have very low Celtic ancestry, but very high Germanic (Angles and Saxons from England) ancestry. I suspect that many of them came from the port cities like Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc.


Are you sure the Southeast is very low on Celtic? It's low wrt the rest of Scotland but it doesn't strike me as heavily Germanic as other, well mixed, parts of England. POBI had them and northern England clusters separate with the west Scottish one.

Comparing Irish, Norwegian and Scottish should show Scots closer to Norwegians if this is the case, I'd think.



The genetic clusters around Aberdeen and Edinburgh aren't real close to most of the Irish clusters. Glasgow, being not that far from Ayrshire and Galloway, where Gaelic used to be spoken, could have some immigrants that were close genetically to the Irish.


Glasgow area is well known for its High amount of Irish immigration from Ulster, including from those considered native and planter. Interestingly no Irish native group shows up in Scotland though they should havebeen there long enough to qualify for POB inclusion.





Also, Ireland is lumped closer to Orkney than they are to any other country or region on the dendrogram. I don't think this is due to the Orcadians being more closely related to the Irish than any other country or region is, but, I do take note that Orkney has a lot of Norwegian ancestry. I think because of Orkney having elevated Norwegian ancestry, that is why they are grouped so close to the Irish on the dendrogram.

Then where is west Scottish? They are also high in Norwegian and much more historically linked.



The Viking invasions of Ireland are the only event that history records where large numbers of Norwegians came to Ireland. Even if you go back as late as 1000 A.D., that would be a minimum of 30 generations. Plenty of time for the Viking genetics to get mixed throughout Ireland. Seems like the first Viking settlements in Ireland were in the early 9th century A.D.

Additionally, the authors of the Irish DNA Atlas article say that part of the Norwegian input could be explained by the immigration of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries and Redshanks from the Western Isles of Scotland (from about the 13th century A.D to about 1600 A.D.). These Gallowglass warriors were part Gaelic and part Viking. The Gallowglass intermarried with the Irish. But, the authors still appear to say that most of the Norwegian genetic input in Ireland was from the Vikings.

Judging by the low amount of Scandinavian Y and high amount of autosomal, they were invaded by viking women. (Which sounds like a great plot for a movie: "Attack of the Hot Viking Chicks", hell give them Harleys to ride in on lol)

Jessie
12-10-2017, 06:28 AM
Glasgow area is well known for its High amount of Irish immigration from Ulster, including from those considered native and planter. Interestingly no Irish native group shows up in Scotland though they should havebeen there long enough to qualify for POB inclusion.

The PoBI removed Ireland from their study. When they had Ireland included the Highlands and Western Scotland have high levels of Irish.





Then where is west Scottish? They are also high in Norwegian and much more historically linked.



Judging by the low amount of Scandinavian Y and high amount of autosomal, they were invaded by viking women. (Which sounds like a great plot for a movie: "Attack of the Hot Viking Chicks", hell give them Harleys to ride in on lol)

This is what is suggested for the relative lack of Scandinavian Y dna.

This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through recombination.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf

This was posted by Obs on the Razib Khan article.

This seems to be true for a large portion of the British Isles and was shown in an older study too, in which non-R1b and R1a specifically was much higher in Medieval times:

The medieval sample from West Lancashire shows a significant increase in the proportion of hgR1a1 with respect to its modern counterpart (P = 0.044, Fisher’s exact test), and for the Wirral samples, the increase is close to significance (P = 0.051). These observations seem compatible with a higher proportion of Viking lineages in the medieval than in the modern Wirral and West Lancashire samples.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/25/2/301/1129414

That in mind the Norse genetic legacy on Ireland seems to be much higher than previously thought and the difference between the original Celtic populations and the modern ones is therefore larger too. The Germanic conquest being a homogenising factor on both Britain and Ireland. Why this isn’t reflected by yDNA variation can be explained by the clan based society on Ireland which might have erased the older male lineages of the defeated.

How would you explain the high Norse component found in the Irish? The higher Norse was found in Orcadians and West Scots as well which have well attested Norse incursions. This Norse component was quite reduced in both England and Wales.

Heber
12-10-2017, 06:51 AM
Various explanations for the high Norwegian component:

Norse Gaels
The Norse–Gaels (Old Irish: Gall-Goídil, Irish: Gall-Ghaedheil or Gall-Ghaeil, Scottish Gaelic: Gall-Ghàidheil, 'foreigner-Gaels') were a people of mixed Gaelic and Norse ancestry and culture. They emerged in the Viking Age, when Vikings who settled in Ireland and in Scotland adopted Gaelic culture and intermarried with Gaels. The Norse–Gaels dominated much of the Irish Sea and Scottish Sea regions from the 9th to 12th centuries. They founded the Kingdom of the Isles (which included the Hebrides and the Isle of Man), the Kingdom of Dublin, the Lordship of Galloway (which is named after them), and ruled the Kingdom of York for a time. The most powerful Norse–Gaelic dynasty were the Uí Ímair or House of Ivar.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OIH7Kxe273EsLYamV9GOjomg60-3LuoW

Lords of the Isles
The Lord of the Isles is a title of Scottish nobility with historical roots that go back beyond the Kingdom of Scotland. It emerged from a series of hybrid Viking/Gaelic rulers of the west coast and islands of Scotland in the Middle Ages, who wielded sea-power with fleets of galleys (birlinns). Although they were, at times, nominal vassals of the Kings of Norway, Ireland, or Scotland, the island chiefs remained functionally independent for many centuries. Their territory included the Hebrides, (Skye and Ross from 1438), Knoydart, Ardnamurchan, and the Kintyre peninsula. At their height they were the greatest landowners and most powerful lords in the British Isles after the Kings of England and Scotland.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles

Irish Slaves during Viking Raids
In the Early and High Middle Ages the Vikings began to travel and raid across Europe and the Atlantic. During these expeditions the Vikings captured many people whom they enslaved or sold into the slave-trade. For the western portion of the Viking Expansion, many of the enslaved were Irish. The enslavement of the Irish by the Norse continued through the end of the Viking Age and occurred not only in the British Isles but also in Iceland. The process of the Viking Expansion and enslavement of the Irish influenced Norse culture and social identity.

https://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ie/&httpsredir=1&article=2231&context=honr_theses

kevinduffy
12-10-2017, 06:52 AM
Was anyone else besides me surprised that all three of the Planter clusters in Northern Ireland had substantial amounts of Gaelic Irish ancestry?

I don't know what you mean by substantial but from what I can see the three planter clusters are much more closely related to British populations than to Irish ones.

Pascal C
12-10-2017, 07:07 AM
The PoBI removed Ireland from their study. When they had Ireland included the Highlands and Western Scotland have high levels of Irish.


I was referencing the present study on that point, only Northerm Ireland" clusters show up




This is what is suggested for the relative lack of Scandinavian Y dna.

This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through recombination.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf

This was posted by Obs on the Razib Khan article.

This seems to be true for a large portion of the British Isles and was shown in an older study too, in which non-R1b and R1a specifically was much higher in Medieval times:

The medieval sample from West Lancashire shows a significant increase in the proportion of hgR1a1 with respect to its modern counterpart (P = 0.044, Fisher’s exact test), and for the Wirral samples, the increase is close to significance (P = 0.051). These observations seem compatible with a higher proportion of Viking lineages in the medieval than in the modern Wirral and West Lancashire samples.


Possible but sounds vaguely like pleading, and what study? How did R1b rise? Does it do it often? Maybe that's why Connaught is full of R1b.



That in mind the Norse genetic legacy on Ireland seems to be much higher than previously thought and the difference between the original Celtic populations and the modern ones is therefore larger too. The Germanic conquest being a homogenising factor on both Britain and Ireland. Why this isn’t reflected by yDNA variation can be explained by the clan based society on Ireland which might have erased the older male lineages of the defeated.

How would you explain the high Norse component found in the Irish? The higher Norse was found in Orcadians and West Scots as well which have well attested Norse incursions. This Norse component was quite reduced in both England and Wales.

What Germanic conquest? Norman-Breton-French-Flemish-Welsh and some Anglo.Saxon-Dane-Brython hybrids?

My supposed ancestor was part of it in Ireland and he went there from La Rochelle, i.e. Aquitaine.

Not exeactly some Wagnerian Teutonic fairytale

As for west Scots why aren't they next to Orcadians like the Irish who they have historically strong links to?

sktibo
12-10-2017, 07:20 AM
I don't know what you mean by substantial but from what I can see the three planter clusters are much more closely related to British populations than to Irish ones.

20349

N Ireland 1 appears closer to the British, N Ireland 3 appears closest to the Gaelic populations - so yes and no, depending on the N Ireland population by the look of things. I'm most surprised by the variation in it.

Pascal C
12-10-2017, 07:23 AM
I don't know what you mean by substantial but from what I can see the three planter clusters are much more closely related to British populations than to Irish ones.

Looks that way from the dendrogram . Yet not so much from the PCA. I'd guess some of the "planter" groups include "native" Irish. I had guessed that about the POBI S Scottish cluster, and from the description of why they chose to give these the designations seems to include simply a majority of British names. Again, Northern Ireland 1 shows up in Dublin and Bantry, Cork. What about the Dublin cluster?

Jessie
12-10-2017, 07:57 AM
Possible but sounds vaguely like pleading, and what study? How did R1b rise? Does it do it often? Maybe that's why Connaught is full of R1b.

Most likely someone like Dubhthach could answer better but in Irish medieval society high standing males had many wives and children. This increased certain ydna e.g. M222 in the Irish population.

Whether it is special pleading or not what is the source or reason for the Norse component in the Irish? If not Viking incursions then what is the reason for similar levels with Orcadians and West Scots?




What Germanic conquest? Norman-Breton-French-Flemish-Welsh and some Anglo.Saxon-Dane-Brython hybrids?

My supposed ancestor was part of it in Ireland and he went there from La Rochelle, i.e. Aquitaine.

Not exeactly some Wagnerian Teutonic fairytale

That was a quote from Obs that I copied.


As for west Scots why aren't they next to Orcadians like the Irish who they have historically strong links to?

I thought they mentioned it was due to the distance of both the Orcadians and Irish due to a certain degree of isolation also higher Norwegian and less German input. Possibly others can wade in on this.

Here is the info.
We observe that the majority of our Irish individuals are found on one, ‘Gaelic’ Irish branch, which is grouped with the Orcadian branch. This grouping is likely due to the similar (but separate) genetic distances from Ireland and Orkney to the rest of the British populations, which fineStructure’s tree building algorithm interprets by branching together. Both Ireland and Orkney share elevated levels of Norwegian-related ancestry, which could provide an alternative explanation for this grouping. However our PCA suggests no large scale gene flow between the two populations. As well as observing groups in Ireland with links to Scotland, we observe the W Scotland I cluster to be closer to Ireland in our PCA than the other Scottish clusters, suggesting another link between south/west Scotland with north Ireland. Indeed this is the part of Scotland which has historically spoken Scots Gaelic.

The Orkney information is very interesting because on Gedmatch I frequently get Orcadian as my no 1 population.

It is all very fascinating and intriguing.

I would have liked to have seen a breakdown of ancestral populations for both Rathlin and Ballynahatty. I don't think they did this unless I missed it.

Nqp15hhu
12-10-2017, 09:27 AM
I am from Northern Ireland. What cluster would I appear in? All three?

Nqp15hhu
12-10-2017, 09:29 AM
I also wonder if some of the Northern Ireland 2 group may represent "natives" in Ulster.
The Northern Ireland 1 group only shows up in Dublin and around Bantry:noidea: on the map, but there was something written about them mentioning 1 tester being from southern Ireland. Does that symbol represent only 1 person?

The Northern Ireland 3 cluster only shows up around Derry, Belfast and Dublin and mostly in N England with a trend toward Cumbria.

Meanwhile there seems to be a lot of the Dublin cluster in Northern Ireland, from the Route, Belfast and in N Tyrone, it looks like.
Could it also possibly just be unrelated migrations/intermixing of people with similar backgrounds?

I don't think there are much ties to Dublin amongst the Northern Irish, even the native Irish. My ancestryDNA genetic communties support this, with only Ulster being present.

Nqp15hhu
12-10-2017, 09:30 AM
Was anyone else besides me surprised that all three of the Planter clusters in Northern Ireland had substantial amounts of Gaelic Irish ancestry? The authors of the Irish DNA Atlas article mention their techniques for discovering this in the electronic supplementary material.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

However, in the next to the last paragraph under the "Discussion" section, the authors also say or indicate that some of this admixture could be caused by migrations before the 17th and 18th Centuries A.D. (before the Ulster Plantations) from Scotland to Ulster or vice versa. They specifically mention the migration of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries and numerous Redshanks (from about the 13th Century A. D. to about 1600 A. D.).

So, I believe that most of this admixture happened some time during the 17th and 18th centuries A. D. (like their calculations indicate), with some of it occurring during the Gallowglass migration into Ireland, also from some of the Normans or their retinue (although there weren't large numbers of Normans in Ulster), and some of it as far back as the kingdom of Dal Riada.

In the 13th century, Alan and Thomas of Galloway had some lands in Ulster, but I don't know if they were there long enough for their colonies to have any genetic input. They were said to be descendants of Fergus, a ruler of Galloway.

Kind Regards

Not really, there has been a lot of intermarriages in Northern Ireland.

avalon
12-10-2017, 11:23 AM
Looks that way from the dendrogram . Yet not so much from the PCA. I'd guess some of the "planter" groups include "native" Irish. I had guessed that about the POBI S Scottish cluster, and from the description of why they chose to give these the designations seems to include simply a majority of British names. Again, Northern Ireland 1 shows up in Dublin and Bantry, Cork. What about the Dublin cluster?

I'm no expert but I think PCA is a more useful tool than dendrogram for determining how close groups are to each other. Orkney and Ireland branch alongside each other on dendrogram due to similar genetic distance from Britain and perhaps also due to shared Viking ancestry but it doesn't necessarily mean they are that close within an Isles context. Orcadians appear distinct from everyone, perhaps mostly due to drift.

In terms of the Northern Ireland clusters, PCA may be more useful.

avalon
12-10-2017, 11:46 AM
20349

N Ireland 1 appears closer to the British, N Ireland 3 appears closest to the Gaelic populations - so yes and no, depending on the N Ireland population by the look of things. I'm most surprised by the variation in it.

I'd agree. N Ireland 1 and N Ireland 2 are more shifted towards Northern England, whereas N Ireland 3 is more towards Ireland. This is also corroborated by the PCAs and t-SNE charts presented in the other study although it looks like the groups are slightly different, ie, this study has 3 N Ireland clusters whereas the other study just has a NICS (N Ireland/Cumbria/S Scotland) grouping. However, if you look closely at the chart below, NICS does plot closer to Northern England but some of the crosses of that NICS colour are placed alongside the Gaelic Irish clusters near Central Leinster, so these must be the same individuals that this study placed into N Ireland 3 category, ie more Gaelic than other N Ireland individuals.

20350

CillKenny
12-10-2017, 11:46 AM
I have been looking again at the Figure 3 (Irish DNA Atlas) and the discussion on Ireland Orkney connections. I was at the earlier talk Ed gave in July 2016 and I seem to remember him saying that the Irish were closer to the Welsh than was thought. Looking at Figure 3 it does look like two groups of the Welsh (NW I and SW II) are closer to the Irish than all but the Western Scotland 1.

On the Norse cities in Ireland my memory of reading the history of the time was that they fell and were recaptured a number of times before finally falling. The pattern was that the males not killed in battle sailed away to lick their wounds and the rest ran the risk of being taken back as slaves to where the local invaders came from. With a total population on the island of about 500,000 at the time it could have been that the population of the various Norse settlements might have represented at least 5% of this - Dublin was a major city in the Norse world at the time.

cilldara
12-10-2017, 12:12 PM
Does anyone have any insights into the Central Ireland group? It stretches from Dublin all along to Galway and Clare.

CillKenny
12-10-2017, 01:10 PM
Does anyone have any insights into the Central Ireland group? It stretches from Dublin all along to Galway and Clare.

Figure 1 (Irish DNA Atlas) has it splitting off from Leinster so it could be interpreted as being closer to this group than Connacht and Dublin. The Ulster Gaelic group split off from the rest of these earlier in the analysis.

A possibility is the original Laigin group that were much more spread across Ireland into Munster and parts of Connacht. It was only when this group lost the northern part of their territory (including the Tara complex) that the southern groups came to prominence - which coincides with Leinster in Figure 1. It could be that the Central Ireland were the leading Laigin group who were then squeezed between the various other groups in later times. Many scholars think that the Laigin were made up of two distinct groups that pooled their histories etc. Much of what we know is coloured by who was at the top of the pile at the time when we started to write down our history. Very much like the Ui Neill, the southern Leinster group emerged at around the same time and may have written themselves into the oral history - emerging cuttlefish like from a cloud of ink of their own making.

Heber
12-10-2017, 01:42 PM
It could be linked to the Southern O Neill.

The Southern Uí Néill [not to be confused with O'Neill] were among the leading dynasties in the "middle kingdom" of Midhe from the 5th century up to the arrival of the Normans in the 12th century. Their main territories included the ancient areas about Mide and the plain of Brega, which included the modern counties of Meath and Westmeath, as well as portions of counties Longford, Offaly, Louth, Dublin and Kildare. Prior to the arrival of the sons of Niall of the Nine Hostages in the 5th century, the areas of Mide and Brega were ruled under dynasties which included the Laigin, as the area has been speculated to be previously a part of the kingdom of ancient Leinster. Of the sons and grandsons of Niall of the Nine Hostages who conquered territory in this area, there included Lóegaire, ancestor of Cenel Lóigaire; Conall Cremthann, ancestor of Clan Cholmáin (Mide) and Sil Áeda Sláine (Brega); Cairbre, ancestor of Cenel Cairpri Laigen and Cairpri Gabra; Fiachu, ancestor of Cinel Fiachach and dynast of Fir Cell; and Maine, dynast of Tethba.

Onomasticon Goedelicum describes the boundary of Brega as: "its bounds seem Belach dúin (alias Castlekieran in the barony of Kells Upper) and the sea; the Boyne and Cassán (at Annagassan, southeast of Castlebellingham)."

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/mide.htm

It also matches the route of the ancient Esker Riada (An Slige Mór) road which went from Dublin to Galway via Clonmacnoise connecting Tara to Cruaghan.

The Annals of the Four Masters and other Sacred Texts claims that from Tara, the great heart and centre of the Irish Kingdom, ve great roads radiated to the various parts of the country:- The Slige Cualann (which ran south-east through Dublin and on
to Bray), the Slige Mór (the great Western road ran south west from Tara and went via Trim towards the Clonard/Eneld area to join the great Connaught Road connecting Dublin with Galway which followed the path of the Esker Riada), the Slige Asail (which ran due West towards Lough Owel near Mullingar and then probably in a north-westerly direction), the Slige Dala (beginning in Kells, passing through Tara and heading south east towards Carrick-on-Suir, and the Slige Midluachra (the Northern road running in the direction of Slane and on to Antrim).*

http://www.enfieldonline.net/local-history?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2 F&showPrintDialog=1

Dubhthach
12-10-2017, 02:11 PM
Something that is surprising to me is the implied genetic closeness of the Irish to Orkney which is shown on the dendrogram here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4/figures/1



I don't think it's showing that, what it is doing is showing that both the Irish and the Orkney samples are 'outgroups' from the PoBI dataset. As the PoBI dataset is so large in comparison to the Irish sampleset it forms the 'middle/normalised position' within the diagram, if you added another European population with a smallish sampleset (say 200) they would also show as an outgroup to the PoBI sampleset which is well over 1,000 strong. I imagine if their was a norwegian sampleset added that Orkney would cluster with those in outgroup section over the irish sampleset

Dubhthach
12-10-2017, 02:18 PM
Due to geographical isolation, highest rate of R1b, and so on probably.



As a person from west of Ireland I'm not seeing the geographic isolation? Most of Connacht is made up of flat agricultural land which is used for cattle grazing (eg. it's Plains). This is most evident in Roscommon, East Galway and Mayo. The Shannon isn't a huge barrier for movement between western 'Leinster' (in medieval concept the Province of Meath) and Connacht. Anyways it was bridged at many times in history (for example the 8th century Connacht bridge at Clonmacnoise). What we should remember of course is that the dynastical groups ruling over bulk of Connacht and Meath (eg. 'North Leinster') were genealogical/dynastically related to each other. If anything it's probable that the Uí Néill expanded out of North-East Connacht.

Where there is geographic isolation is extreme west of Connacht, so for example the historic region of 'Iar Connachta' (West Connacht) or as we call it today Conemara, which is west of Lough Corrib, likewise the areas of the 'Two Umhaill' in West Mayo which made up core of the O'Malley territory and of course Erris in NW Mayo.

That is why the vast bulk of Connacht had underwent language shift by 1900, if barriers to movement had been higher than areas such as East Galway or Roscommon would have stayed Irish speaking into the 20th century.

Dubhthach
12-10-2017, 02:21 PM
Was anyone else besides me surprised that all three of the Planter clusters in Northern Ireland had substantial amounts of Gaelic Irish ancestry? The authors of the Irish DNA Atlas article mention their techniques for discovering this in the electronic supplementary material.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

However, in the next to the last paragraph under the "Discussion" section, the authors also say or indicate that some of this admixture could be caused by migrations before the 17th and 18th Centuries A.D. (before the Ulster Plantations) from Scotland to Ulster or vice versa. They specifically mention the migration of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries and numerous Redshanks (from about the 13th Century A. D. to about 1600 A. D.).

So, I believe that most of this admixture happened some time during the 17th and 18th centuries A. D. (like their calculations indicate), with some of it occurring during the Gallowglass migration into Ireland, also from some of the Normans or their retinue (although there weren't large numbers of Normans in Ulster), and some of it as far back as the kingdom of Dal Riada.

In the 13th century, Alan and Thomas of Galloway had some lands in Ulster, but I don't know if they were there long enough for their colonies to have any genetic input. They were said to be descendants of Fergus, a ruler of Galloway.

Kind Regards

Well Arlene Foster the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (and who is a member of Church of Ireland) has the maiden name of Kelly. Given that Anglican's in Ireland generally imply Anglo origin or conversion, it would strike me that she is a case of a Gaelic Irish lineage that converted and than admixed into general Church of Ireland population in Fermanagh.

Pascal C
12-10-2017, 02:21 PM
I don't think there are much ties to Dublin amongst the Northern Irish, even the native Irish. My ancestryDNA genetic communties support this, with only Ulster being present.

I wish I could help you. I'd like to make sense of the whole thing. I'm not sure of the Dublin cluster. Oh BTW Ha yer a Dub lol. Others familiar will have to weigh in.

What is the Dublin cluster?

Dubhthach
12-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Does anyone have any insights into the Central Ireland group? It stretches from Dublin all along to Galway and Clare.

Dál Cuinn, or in this case reflective of deep barriers that the line Galway-> Dublin seems to represent in Irish pre-history. North of this line you had the Three Connachta and the Southern Uí Néill kingdom of Meath.
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eochaid-connachta.png

Now that the paper has been published we can revise the following images that were taken at a previous talk on the paper given by Ed.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fine-structure-tree.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fineStructure-branches.jpg

This bipartite division of Ireland shows up repeatly for example:

Ogham stone distrubution: (note peak in SW, which is intersting given how what paper says about SW munster clusters)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

Archaeology
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg:

M222 sampleset in old ScotlandsDNA database (complicated by their use of modern 12 county Leinster which isn't historical)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

CillKenny
12-10-2017, 02:37 PM
What is the Dublin cluster?[/QUOTE]

It is very intriguing indeed. It seems N Dublin/Meath (which included the Tara complex) and is most closely linked to the Connacht group. Is this the Southern Ui Neill?

Pat

Phoebe Watts
12-10-2017, 02:38 PM
Something that is surprising to me is the implied genetic closeness of the Irish to Orkney which is shown on the dendrogram here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4/figures/1



Dubhthach explains this. Just to add that by reading the dendrogram from left to right you can get an understanding of how dissimilar Irish and Orkneys clusters are. They break off together from the main group - then break up again almost immediately.

Dubhthach
12-10-2017, 02:41 PM
I wish I could help you. I'd like to make sense of the whole thing. I'm not sure of the Dublin cluster. Oh BTW Ha yer a Dub lol. Others familiar will have to weigh in.

What is the Dublin cluster?

I'm assuming it's reflective of increased Anglo ancestry in both general Dublin population though given massive increase in population over last 50 years from inward migration from west of Ireland this might be somewhat diluted. It also reflect that Dublin has always had a large 'Anglo-Irish' population compare to rest of Ireland. If you consider the rules of requiring all 8 great-grandparents from a region the sampleset form Dublin reflects population structure sometime circa 1851.

What we know is that in 1901 census that Dublin was only 76.32% Roman Catholic, in comparison Meath (which borders Dublin) was 91.38% Catholic. Now religion might be a bad proxy but it does imply that there was a significant population in Dublin who were probably admixed Anglo-Irish, as well as a probable large population of British born (Dublin castle administration, Troops etc.)

CillKenny
12-10-2017, 02:58 PM
I'm assuming it's reflective of increased Anglo ancestry in both general Dublin population

I thought that at first but Dublin splits off from Connacht and is closest (with Connacht) to Rathlin 1. I am not sure if the Irish DNA Atlas followed the UK POBI in not looking big city samples but I suspect that the 8 great grandparent rule probably means that the participants are overwhelmingly rural if not just a generation or two away from being farmers.

Nqp15hhu
12-10-2017, 03:22 PM
I'm assuming it's reflective of increased Anglo ancestry in both general Dublin population though given massive increase in population over last 50 years from inward migration from west of Ireland this might be somewhat diluted. It also reflect that Dublin has always had a large 'Anglo-Irish' population compare to rest of Ireland. If you consider the rules of requiring all 8 great-grandparents from a region the sampleset form Dublin reflects population structure sometime circa 1851.

What we know is that in 1901 census that Dublin was only 76.32% Roman Catholic, in comparison Meath (which borders Dublin) was 91.38% Catholic. Now religion might be a bad proxy but it does imply that there was a significant population in Dublin who were probably admixed Anglo-Irish, as well as a probable large population of British born (Dublin castle administration, Troops etc.)

What would Anglos have to do with Presbyterians in Northern Ireland though?

Nqp15hhu
12-10-2017, 03:29 PM
I wish I could help you. I'd like to make sense of the whole thing. I'm not sure of the Dublin cluster. Oh BTW Ha yer a Dub lol. Others familiar will have to weigh in.

What is the Dublin cluster?

Thanks, not really sure. I took an AncestryDNA test to get some sort of clarity into my Northern Irish ancestry and it's makeup, but i'm no further forward, with a very vague Ulster and Scotland Genetic Community.

avalon
12-10-2017, 04:00 PM
I have been looking again at the Figure 3 (Irish DNA Atlas) and the discussion on Ireland Orkney connections. I was at the earlier talk Ed gave in July 2016 and I seem to remember him saying that the Irish were closer to the Welsh than was thought. Looking at Figure 3 it does look like two groups of the Welsh (NW I and SW II) are closer to the Irish than all but the Western Scotland 1.



I think in terms of Irish and Welsh, what we have is the two modern populations that are best representative of Goedelic Celts and Brythonic Celts, which isn't surprising when we think of where Celtic languages are still spoken today.

The ancestry profiles in fig 3 are quite similar, you're right. Both Irish and Welsh have a lot of the France component, the main difference to me is that Irish have more in common with Norway, whereas Welsh have more in common with modern populations of Belgium, Denmark and Germany.

They are both quite separate on the PCA plots we have seen though, but this appears mostly down to local drift in Welsh populations. Figure 2 from this paper was quite interesting because it shows where they observed gene flow barriers in Britain and Ireland, this was their EEMS analysis. I believe that the brown areas show these barriers to gene flow.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4/figures/2


In Ireland we detect a general trend of gene flow across the island, with three areas of low migration. The first is to the west of the island, including the coast of Connacht. The second is a region of relatively low genetic migration near the Leinster – Munster border. The final region of low genetic migration is found within Ulster, extending into Scotland, and seems to reflect the genetic differentiation of ‘Gaelic’ Ireland and Britain, specifically Scotland. This pattern of Ireland’s isolation is also seen in the gene flow barrier between Wales and Ireland.

fridurich
12-10-2017, 10:28 PM
Well Arlene Foster the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (and who is a member of Church of Ireland) has the maiden name of Kelly. Given that Anglican's in Ireland generally imply Anglo origin or conversion, it would strike me that she is a case of a Gaelic Irish lineage that converted and than admixed into general Church of Ireland population in Fermanagh.

You make a good point. Also, I wonder how many times people will see an English looking surname in Northern Ireland and assume automatically that person has English or Lowland Scottish direct patrilineal descent without considering there were sometimes that Gaelic Irish people in Ulster anglicized their surname so much it looked English or like it could be Lowland Scots and converted to a Protestant religion.

If a convert did this and his family quit speaking Irish, but instead spoke English, never told other people about their Gaelic Irish ancestry, and converted to a Protestant denomination, in a few generations (maybe less), how would anyone be able to know his family history, or distinguish them from those of Planter stock? It's not like they had a different skin color where you could distinguish them.

I know some of the same type thing must have happened in Ireland.

Kind Regards

Sikeliot
12-10-2017, 11:12 PM
What does "low genetic migration" mean?

Pascal C
12-11-2017, 12:15 AM
I'm assuming it's reflective of increased Anglo ancestry in both general Dublin population though given massive increase in population over last 50 years from inward migration from west of Ireland this might be somewhat diluted. It also reflect that Dublin has always had a large 'Anglo-Irish' population compare to rest of Ireland. If you consider the rules of requiring all 8 great-grandparents from a region the sampleset form Dublin reflects population structure sometime circa 1851.

What we know is that in 1901 census that Dublin was only 76.32% Roman Catholic, in comparison Meath (which borders Dublin) was 91.38% Catholic. Now religion might be a bad proxy but it does imply that there was a significant population in Dublin who were probably admixed Anglo-Irish, as well as a probable large population of British born (Dublin castle administration, Troops etc.)

I thought about the Anglo Ancestry but does that make sense in North Antrim? Is that a relic of the Earldom? De Mandeville's? McQuillan's? Given the Scot Bissett and later McDonnnell presence I'd think it would be watered down.

Pascal C
12-11-2017, 12:23 AM
What would Anglos have to do with Presbyterians in Northern Ireland though?

Presbyterians didn't exist until John Knox. There was a colony in east Ulster, The Earldom of Ulster, for a while. There were also Scots involved there long previous to the reformation

kevinduffy
12-11-2017, 12:57 AM
Well Arlene Foster the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (and who is a member of Church of Ireland) has the maiden name of Kelly. Given that Anglican's in Ireland generally imply Anglo origin or conversion, it would strike me that she is a case of a Gaelic Irish lineage that converted and than admixed into general Church of Ireland population in Fermanagh.

Is Kelly an exclusively Irish name or is it found in Scotland as well?

kevinduffy
12-11-2017, 01:00 AM
Not really, there has been a lot of intermarriages in Northern Ireland.

Since when? If intermarriage was common there should be plenty of evidence of it. I am unaware of such evidence. If you know of such evidence then please enlighten me.

Nqp15hhu
12-11-2017, 01:03 AM
Is Kelly an exclusively Irish name or is it found in Scotland as well?
It's a Protestant name where I live, from England.

In many areas Protestants and Catholics will have the same surname but absolutely no connection because the two names have completely different origins, English/Scottish and or Irish.

Pascal C
12-11-2017, 02:01 AM
Since when? If intermarriage was common there should be plenty of evidence of it. I am unaware of such evidence. If you know of such evidence then please enlighten me.

Since Northern Ireland has existed for 96 years, it should be easier to find statistics on it. It might be harder to get statistics on 17th-19th century. IIRC the Catholic Church took some new position/made new regulations on marrying non Catholics in the early 20th C that reduced intermarriage quite a bit. It was also during a time of rising nationalism so that probably had an effect as well.

An old Ulsterman told me that in intermarriages generally the religion of the women was what the children would be raised but I've seen records where children of one sex was listed as Catholic and the other as non Catholic (which must be confusing as some might call themselves Ulster Scots and the others native Irish) Also I'm not sure how the rules would work today if 2 guys or girls married and they adopted or went to a sperm bank lol

fridurich
12-11-2017, 03:19 AM
Are you sure the Southeast is very low on Celtic? It's low wrt the rest of Scotland but it doesn't strike me as heavily Germanic as other, well mixed, parts of England. POBI had them and northern England clusters separate with the west Scottish one.

Comparing Irish, Norwegian and Scottish should show Scots closer to Norwegians if this is the case, I'd think.



Glasgow area is well known for its High amount of Irish immigration from Ulster, including from those considered native and planter. Interestingly no Irish native group shows up in Scotland though they should havebeen there long enough to qualify for POB inclusion.




Then where is west Scottish? They are also high in Norwegian and much more historically linked.



Judging by the low amount of Scandinavian Y and high amount of autosomal, they were invaded by viking women. (Which sounds like a great plot for a movie: "Attack of the Hot Viking Chicks", hell give them Harleys to ride in on lol)

I remember now it seemed like the POBI gave most, or all, of the Scottish regions high amounts of Celtic input (and I don't remember any of them having a majority of Germanic input.) and also not as much Germanic input (Angles, Saxons from England) as would be expected in the Southeast of Scotland. If I remember right, all, or almost all of the regions in Wales and England had more Celtic than Germanic input and even the high settlement areas of the Saxons, Angles had more Celtic input. When I say Celtic, I am referring to some extant to the language the inhabitants spoke before the arrival of the Anglo Saxons, but I think the majority of these Celtic groups had high levels of YDNA L21, which some identify with Celtic populations.

I have no doubt that many of the Western Scots, particularly in the Western Isles, Galloway, etc. have a lot of Norwegian blood. You are right they are strongly historically linked with Ireland.

Concerning the paucity of Viking YDNA in Ireland. If I remember right, there was some notable Irishman of the 17th Century, maybe Dugald MacFirbis, who wrote that the families of the Irish nobles increased greatly in size while the commoners withered away (paraphrased). The Gaelic chiefs and nobles of the Middle Ages were known for having more than one wife and/or concubines. This practice (from very early times) was continued even after Christianity was introduced. I think Irish law tracts justified it, so technically for them, it was legal. It was also easy to divorce a wife, at least for a noble, and get a new one. As a result, the nobles usually had many children, and probably very many grandchildren.

So, I think what MacFirbis or whoever it was, was talking about was this proliferation of the descendants of the nobility, which over time (and think about over centuries) could greatly increase the proportion of their YDNA haplogroup(s) compared to the number of commoners who had other haplogroups. Many or most commoners probably had only one wife. So, over time, the commoner DNA, could possibly in some instances almost die out.

So, maybe that is what happend to the Vikings YDNA, even though they had their nobles too. Additionally, after losing a battle, I would imagine the male Vikings that survived would usually be enslaved, if they were caught. So then it would be entirely up to their master if they even had a mate. Slavery didn't end in Ireland until about the 12 Century A.D.

LOL, very funny about the Viking chicks on Harleys! Ha, ha!!!

Kind Regards

rozenfeld
12-11-2017, 03:41 AM
Some coverage in news: https://www.rte.ie/amp/925971/

fridurich
12-11-2017, 04:52 AM
I don't know what you mean by substantial but from what I can see the three planter clusters are much more closely related to British populations than to Irish ones.

Kevin, the main source for this is about 26:55 on the timeline when Ed Gilbert, with the Irish DNA Atlas, says something about subsets of the Irish population (referring to those of Planter descent) who looked roughly half Irish half British who were found mainly in the north of Ireland. Then shortly after that he mentions they think this occurred sometime during the 17th or 18th centuries. He mentions this was the time that the Ulster Plantations were going on. Please listen to it and tell me what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo

Then on the IDA article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_population-genetics

in the third paragraph of "Admixture within Ireland " they said that using Globetrotter software they found significant evidence of admixture in all 3 of the Northern Ireland clusters. Then they show the amounts of different Irish and Planter clusters that were used for the admixture. Their ratios are kind of confusing to me. I wish they had stated them as percentages such as "30 percent". Based on what they say, the context, and what they say about the numbers being used (although I don't fully understand their figures), they are conveying that all 3 Planter clusters have significant Gaelic Irish admixture. They go on to say, that unlike N. Ireland I, and Northern Ireland II, the main source of the admixture event for N. Ireland III is mainly Irish.

One thing that is weird is that the Ulster Gaelic cluster is so distant from all of these N. Ireland clusters, yet it is part of the ancestral contribution to the Gaelic part of N. Ireland II and N. Ireland III. N. Ireland II is the largest group of the three Planter clusters.

Something else strange is that in the Supplementary materials PCA chart Supplementary Figure II, the W Scotland I cluster is kind of far from the Ulster Gaelic group, even though the W Scotland I cluster are the Gaelic speakers of Western Scotland. However, W Scotland I is pretty close to some of the other Irish clusters (such as Connacht and Leinster) and also close to Planter clusters N. Ireland III and some of Northern Ireland II.

I'm not an expert, so others can weigh in on the interpretation of the PCA chart. The PCA chart appears to show that as a whole, taking all of the Irish and N. Irish clusters together as a unit, they appear to be more closely related to Scotland, as a whole than any other country. Now when you get into some of the N. Ireland clusters, some of their symbols are closer to England than Scotland with some of the N. Ireland cluster close to Wales too. If you take the Planter N. Ireland clusters out away from the Ireland/N. Ireland clusters, it appears to me that Ireland as a whole is more closely related to Scotland, as a whole, than any other country.

In the supplementary material, they describe how they arrive at the date of the 17th to the 18th centuries A. D. for the Planter/Gaelic Irish admixture. They are the experts, so I think that time frame is when most of it happened.

In the next to last paragraph in "Discussion" they indicate some of this Scotland to Ireland, or vice versa, admixture could have happened before the Plantation times. They mention for example the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries coming into Ireland in the 13th through 15th centuries. In this paragraph they don't mention the Dal Riata kingdom that straddled Ulster and Scotland or the Normans in Ulster, but those are obvious avenues for admixture between British and Irish populations.

These pre-Plantation events would have predated the Protestant Reformation, so religion shouldn't have been a barrier. The Normans heavily intermarried with the Irish. The Gallowglass warriors would have spoken Gaelic, and had a similar culture to Gaelic Ireland, so they also intermarried with the Irish. So, I think some of the admixture picked up as between Planters and the Gaelic Irish would have been further back in time from the above genetic sources.

There is a good chance that Gaelic was spoken among any settlers to Ulster from Galloway (which is very close to Antrim) at least up until the 15th century, if not into the 16th and beyond.

Kind Regards

Dubhthach
12-11-2017, 10:11 AM
Is Kelly an exclusively Irish name or is it found in Scotland as well?

Well I'm not sure with regards to Scotland, however what's interesting in case of the bould Arlene is that she's Church of Ireland and not Presbytrian. Fermanagh in general was planted with English settlers and not Scottish so the religious profile there is quite different. There's also the fact that it has always remained a majority Catholic county (which makes it's inclusion in what is now Northern Ireland even more problematic)

In 1901 census, Catholics made up 54.7%, Anglicans made up 34.36%, Methodists made up 7.08% and there was only 1.8% Presbyterian! That's a really low figure for Presbytrians, so without a DNA test of a male Kelly relative it's hard to say but a Scottish origin doesn't really seem to fit the profile for the makeup of Fermanagh.

Interesting a former Ulster Unionist MP for 'Fermanagh and South Tyrone' was Ken Maginnis. Maginnis is an example of someone with a clearly Gaelic Irish surname (with origins in Down) who however is a Unionist and belongs to Church of Ireland, a more recent example I can think of it is the outspoken independent unionist councillor Henry Reilly from south Down (former UKIP member)

Dubhthach
12-11-2017, 10:39 AM
What would Anglos have to do with Presbyterians in Northern Ireland though?

It's a good question, I'd imagine Church of Ireland people might represent a better approximation for connections. I came across the following map showing Church of Ireland distrubution in 1926. Note how the barony of Rathdown (spilt between South Dublin and North Wicklow) is in range of 40-60% Church of Ireland. Of course this ties into the notions of the 'South County Dublin' social set (SoCoDu darling!)

Also note the barony in West Cork which is in range of 10-40% CoI, this is where Graham Norton is originally form.

http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/troubledgeogs/chap7/CoI1926.jpg

The equivalent map for Catholics in some ways helps reinforce how Dublin and Wicklow in sense were atypical in early 20th century compare to rest of Ireland again also note extra baronies around Cork city stand out -- makes sense given major Royal Navy base in Cork (which persisted as a Treaty Port until 1938)

http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/troubledgeogs/chap6/cath1926_col.jpg

To round out here is the Presbytrian map based on 1926 combined census
http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/troubledgeogs/chap7/pres1926.jpg

fridurich
12-11-2017, 01:13 PM
Well I'm not sure with regards to Scotland, however what's interesting in case of the bould Arlene is that she's Church of Ireland and not Presbytrian. Fermanagh in general was planted with English settlers and not Scottish so the religious profile there is quite different. There's also the fact that it has always remained a majority Catholic county (which makes it's inclusion in what is now Northern Ireland even more problematic)

In 1901 census, Catholics made up 54.7%, Anglicans made up 34.36%, Methodists made up 7.08% and there was only 1.8% Presbyterian! That's a really low figure for Presbytrians, so without a DNA test of a male Kelly relative it's hard to say but a Scottish origin doesn't really seem to fit the profile for the makeup of Fermanagh.

Interesting a former Ulster Unionist MP for 'Fermanagh and South Tyrone' was Ken Maginnis. Maginnis is an example of someone with a clearly Gaelic Irish surname (with origins in Down) who however is a Unionist and belongs to Church of Ireland, a more recent example I can think of it is the outspoken independent unionist councillor Henry Reilly from south Down (former UKIP member)

You are right about the surnames Maginnis and Reilly. I have never heard of MacGuinness/Guinness or O'Reilly/Reilly ever being indigenous to Scotland and have never seen them in any Scottish surname books. Of course they are in Scotland now, probably because of 19th century immigration from Ireland to Scotland and since then. It appears Reilly's family took the additional step of dropping the O' prefix. I love to study Irish and Scottish surnames and see what their origin is.

Edward MacLysaght, renowned authority on Irish surnames, never mentioned Reilly or MacGuinness being anything but Irish. He would mention if a name, such as McDonald or MacLoughlin was also indigenous to Scotland, or if a name had come in with the Ulster Planters.

Kind Regards

avalon
12-11-2017, 04:55 PM
What does "low genetic migration" mean?

The areas of low genetic migration are basically areas where they observed barriers to gene flow, shaded in brown on fig2. Areas of higher gene flow are shaded blue.

In Ireland, the areas of relative low migration/gene barriers were the Leinster-Munster border, another one in Ulster and a third on the coast of Connacht which amused me because essentially it's a gene barrier between Ireland the Atlantic Ocean, which is kind of self-evident if I've interpreted it correctly!

Nic Fiachra
12-11-2017, 05:19 PM
Admixture proportions.

http://i66.tinypic.com/oa3uwg.png

For the purpose of bare bones simplification: When I interpret this graph, it appears to me that the general Native Irish admixture differs significantly from the general Native English admixture in that:

The Native Irish admixture contains significantly more French and Norwegian ancestry than the Native English admixture, and approximately twice as much of relatively small amounts of Spanish ancestry.

The Native Irish admixture contains significantly less German, Belgian, and Danish ancestry than the English admixture does.

I'm not a scientist, and am not particularly knowledgeable about interpreting graphs. So can you, or someone else, please let me know if my simple interpretation of the graph is reasonably accurate, and if it is not reasonably accurate, why not?

Thanks!

MacUalraig
12-11-2017, 07:43 PM
There are or were some obscure Scottish Kelly/Kellie/MacKellys but I think Arlene is much more likely a local convert. There are a tiny number of Kellies in the Perthshire hearth tax of 1690 and also a rare bunch down in SW Scotland (Galloway/Ayrshire).

There are of course quite a lot of Protestant Kellys in Ireland just because the pool is so big in the first place. The PRONI archives list over 1000 who signed the Ulster Covenant and also quite a few amongst the Freeholder records. Up to 1793 these had to be Protestants. Funnily enough the first one I looked at that fell in the right date range was this one at Donaghadee, where the old ferry to Scotland used to run from.

20384

Sikeliot
12-11-2017, 10:05 PM
The areas of low genetic migration are basically areas where they observed barriers to gene flow, shaded in brown on fig2. Areas of higher gene flow are shaded blue.

In Ireland, the areas of relative low migration/gene barriers were the Leinster-Munster border, another one in Ulster and a third on the coast of Connacht which amused me because essentially it's a gene barrier between Ireland the Atlantic Ocean, which is kind of self-evident if I've interpreted it correctly!

It might really mean that the far coast of Connacht did not receive much migration across Ireland, meaning that continental migrations did not make it all the way to the coast.

alan
12-12-2017, 12:23 AM
For the purpose of bare bones simplification: When I interpret this graph, it appears to me that the general Native Irish admixture differs significantly from the general Native English admixture in that:

The Native Irish admixture contains significantly more French and Norwegian ancestry than the Native English admixture, and approximately twice as much of relatively small amounts of Spanish ancestry.

The Native Irish admixture contains significantly less German, Belgian, and Danish ancestry than the English admixture does.

I'm not a scientist, and am not particularly knowledgeable about interpreting graphs. So can you, or someone else, please let me know if my simple interpretation of the graph is reasonably accurate, and if it is not reasonably accurate, why not?

Thanks!

That fits the history of those countries very well with the Irish having significant Norwegian and Norman inputs but lacking large Belgic, Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking invasions seen in England which saw v little Norwegian Viking input.

alan
12-12-2017, 12:28 AM
There are or were some obscure Scottish Kelly/Kellie/MacKellys but I think Arlene is much more likely a local convert. There are a tiny number of Kellies in the Perthshire hearth tax of 1690 and also a rare bunch down in SW Scotland (Galloway/Ayrshire).

There are of course quite a lot of Protestant Kellys in Ireland just because the pool is so big in the first place. The PRONI archives list over 1000 who signed the Ulster Covenant and also quite a few amongst the Freeholder records. Up to 1793 these had to be Protestants. Funnily enough the first one I looked at that fell in the right date range was this one at Donaghadee, where the old ferry to Scotland used to run from.

20384

There are another group of ancient Scottish Kellys near Arbroath in Angus where the lands of Kelly and Castle Kelly were located. I think they show up in the parish records early there.

alan
12-12-2017, 12:34 AM
There are or were some obscure Scottish Kelly/Kellie/MacKellys but I think Arlene is much more likely a local convert. There are a tiny number of Kellies in the Perthshire hearth tax of 1690 and also a rare bunch down in SW Scotland (Galloway/Ayrshire).

There are of course quite a lot of Protestant Kellys in Ireland just because the pool is so big in the first place. The PRONI archives list over 1000 who signed the Ulster Covenant and also quite a few amongst the Freeholder records. Up to 1793 these had to be Protestants. Funnily enough the first one I looked at that fell in the right date range was this one at Donaghadee, where the old ferry to Scotland used to run from.

20384

There were some small Irish clans in east Ulster who large chunks of converted to Protestantism very early, occasionally overwhelmingly like the Mcgimpseys, Morrow's etc

kevinduffy
12-12-2017, 04:28 AM
There are or were some obscure Scottish Kelly/Kellie/MacKellys but I think Arlene is much more likely a local convert.

I think if Arlene Foster had any known Irish Gaelic/Catholic ancestry the media would have covered it.

kevinduffy
12-12-2017, 04:35 AM
An old Ulsterman told me that in intermarriages generally the religion of the women was what the children would be raised but I've seen records where children of one sex was listed as Catholic and the other as non Catholic (which must be confusing as some might call themselves Ulster Scots and the others native Irish) Also I'm not sure how the rules would work today if 2 guys or girls married and they adopted or went to a sperm bank lol

Any of these records online? If yes, could you post links to them if you have them?

Anglo-Celtic
12-12-2017, 09:17 AM
It's a Protestant name where I live, from England.

In many areas Protestants and Catholics will have the same surname but absolutely no connection because the two names have completely different origins, English/Scottish and or Irish.

It helps to remember that Protestants and "pure" Irishmen aren't mutually exclusive as some would have it. That was especially true in colonial America. Not all Protestants were Scots-Irish. Some of them were Native Irish, although that was much less common.

Anglo-Celtic
12-12-2017, 09:23 AM
There were some small Irish clans in east Ulster who large chunks of converted to Protestantism very early, occasionally overwhelmingly like the Mcgimpseys, Morrow's etc

The Carnahans were another such family. They had ancestral roots in Donegal, but they converted to Protestantism at some point in time. I tend to look at shared ancestral roots more than nationality or religion. It gets past some artificial divides that have been maintained by conventional wisdom.

Anglo-Celtic
12-12-2017, 09:31 AM
Kevin, the main source for this is about 26:55 on the timeline when Ed Gilbert, with the Irish DNA Atlas, says something about subsets of the Irish population (referring to those of Planter descent) who looked roughly half Irish half British who were found mainly in the north of Ireland. Then shortly after that he mentions they think this occurred sometime during the 17th or 18th centuries. He mentions this was the time that the Ulster Plantations were going on. Please listen to it and tell me what you think.



in the third paragraph of "Admixture within Ireland " they said that using Globetrotter software they found significant evidence of admixture in all 3 of the Northern Ireland clusters. Then they show the amounts of different Irish and Planter clusters that were used for the admixture. Their ratios are kind of confusing to me. I wish they had stated them as percentages such as "30 percent". Based on what they say, the context, and what they say about the numbers being used (although I don't fully understand their figures), they are conveying that all 3 Planter clusters have significant Gaelic Irish admixture. They go on to say, that unlike N. Ireland I, and Northern Ireland II, the main source of the admixture event for N. Ireland III is mainly Irish.

One thing that is weird is that the Ulster Gaelic cluster is so distant from all of these N. Ireland clusters, yet it is part of the ancestral contribution to the Gaelic part of N. Ireland II and N. Ireland III. N. Ireland II is the largest group of the three Planter clusters.

Something else strange is that in the Supplementary materials PCA chart Supplementary Figure II, the W Scotland I cluster is kind of far from the Ulster Gaelic group, even though the W Scotland I cluster are the Gaelic speakers of Western Scotland. However, W Scotland I is pretty close to some of the other Irish clusters (such as Connacht and Leinster) and also close to Planter clusters N. Ireland III and some of Northern Ireland II.

I'm not an expert, so others can weigh in on the interpretation of the PCA chart. The PCA chart appears to show that as a whole, taking all of the Irish and N. Irish clusters together as a unit, they appear to be more closely related to Scotland, as a whole than any other country. Now when you get into some of the N. Ireland clusters, some of their symbols are closer to England than Scotland with some of the N. Ireland cluster close to Wales too. If you take the Planter N. Ireland clusters out away from the Ireland/N. Ireland clusters, it appears to me that Ireland as a whole is more closely related to Scotland, as a whole, than any other country.

In the supplementary material, they describe how they arrive at the date of the 17th to the 18th centuries A. D. for the Planter/Gaelic Irish admixture. They are the experts, so I think that time frame is when most of it happened.

In the next to last paragraph in "Discussion" they indicate some of this Scotland to Ireland, or vice versa, admixture could have happened before the Plantation times. They mention for example the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries coming into Ireland in the 13th through 15th centuries. In this paragraph they don't mention the Dal Riata kingdom that straddled Ulster and Scotland or the Normans in Ulster, but those are obvious avenues for admixture between British and Irish populations.

These pre-Plantation events would have predated the Protestant Reformation, so religion shouldn't have been a barrier. The Normans heavily intermarried with the Irish. The Gallowglass warriors would have spoken Gaelic, and had a similar culture to Gaelic Ireland, so they also intermarried with the Irish. So, I think some of the admixture picked up as between Planters and the Gaelic Irish would have been further back in time from the above genetic sources.

There is a good chance that Gaelic was spoken among any settlers to Ulster from Galloway (which is very close to Antrim) at least up until the 15th century, if not into the 16th and beyond.

Kind Regards

Are you familiar with the history of the McDonnell gallowglass in Ireland? Evidently, they served a clan or clans in Connaught before they moved to County Wicklow. There isn't much information about them like there is about the branch from the Glens of Antrim. At one point in time, the family converted to Protestantism to keep their possessions.

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:11 AM
I think if Arlene Foster had any known Irish Gaelic/Catholic ancestry the media would have covered it.

Not really. You're view of Northern Ireland ancesteral heritage is extremely black and white. Everyone in Northern Ireland has mixed heritage (to an extent), the extent to which one has mixed heritage varies, but it is mostly due to the demographics of the area that you live in, for ex, if you are a Catholic living in a Protestant area and have ancestry going back several generations in that area, you will have a lot of Protestant heritage and vice versa.

It isn't unexpected for this to happen due to the Ne Temere act which requried all Protestants to baptise their kids as Catholics when in a mixed marriage.

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:13 AM
It helps to remember that Protestants and "pure" Irishmen aren't mutually exclusive as some would have it. That was especially true in colonial America. Not all Protestants were Scots-Irish. Some of them were Native Irish, although that was much less common.

I know that, I live in a Protestant area and there are a lot of Protestant o'Niells and Mullans.

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:14 AM
There are or were some obscure Scottish Kelly/Kellie/MacKellys but I think Arlene is much more likely a local convert. There are a tiny number of Kellies in the Perthshire hearth tax of 1690 and also a rare bunch down in SW Scotland (Galloway/Ayrshire).

There are of course quite a lot of Protestant Kellys in Ireland just because the pool is so big in the first place. The PRONI archives list over 1000 who signed the Ulster Covenant and also quite a few amongst the Freeholder records. Up to 1793 these had to be Protestants. Funnily enough the first one I looked at that fell in the right date range was this one at Donaghadee, where the old ferry to Scotland used to run from.

20384

How do you know she is a convert?

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:16 AM
There were some small Irish clans in east Ulster who large chunks of converted to Protestantism very early, occasionally overwhelmingly like the Mcgimpseys, Morrow's etc

That's true but most Protestants have Ulster Scots ancestry. You're attempts to delegitimatize Protestant attachments to Great Britain are failing badly.

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:20 AM
Well I'm not sure with regards to Scotland, however what's interesting in case of the bould Arlene is that she's Church of Ireland and not Presbytrian. Fermanagh in general was planted with English settlers and not Scottish so the religious profile there is quite different. There's also the fact that it has always remained a majority Catholic county (which makes it's inclusion in what is now Northern Ireland even more problematic)

In 1901 census, Catholics made up 54.7%, Anglicans made up 34.36%, Methodists made up 7.08% and there was only 1.8% Presbyterian! That's a really low figure for Presbytrians, so without a DNA test of a male Kelly relative it's hard to say but a Scottish origin doesn't really seem to fit the profile for the makeup of Fermanagh.

Interesting a former Ulster Unionist MP for 'Fermanagh and South Tyrone' was Ken Maginnis. Maginnis is an example of someone with a clearly Gaelic Irish surname (with origins in Down) who however is a Unionist and belongs to Church of Ireland, a more recent example I can think of it is the outspoken independent unionist councillor Henry Reilly from south Down (former UKIP member)

You won't be able to tell if she is Scottish. Like me she could come into the unambigious Ireland/Scotland/Wales community and then with that, what are you supposed to do? She could be from either nation.

Btw, her ancestry will be varied due to the contributions of relatives from other surnames and relations throughout the generations. It isn't realistic to rely on her surname.

I don't even know why you are raising this point anyway. Arlene can identify as whatever she wants, you trying to delegitimatize her ties to Great Britian comes in poor taste.

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:30 AM
Presbyterians didn't exist until John Knox. There was a colony in east Ulster, The Earldom of Ulster, for a while. There were also Scots involved there long previous to the reformation

I don't know what your point is?

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 10:31 AM
You make a good point. Also, I wonder how many times people will see an English looking surname in Northern Ireland and assume automatically that person has English or Lowland Scottish direct patrilineal descent without considering there were sometimes that Gaelic Irish people in Ulster anglicized their surname so much it looked English or like it could be Lowland Scots and converted to a Protestant religion.

If a convert did this and his family quit speaking Irish, but instead spoke English, never told other people about their Gaelic Irish ancestry, and converted to a Protestant denomination, in a few generations (maybe less), how would anyone be able to know his family history, or distinguish them from those of Planter stock? It's not like they had a different skin color where you could distinguish them.

I know some of the same type thing must have happened in Ireland.

Kind Regards

Whatever about a person converting, by the time they get to Arlenes generation, years of mixing will have mixed out the Irish heritage.

MacUalraig
12-12-2017, 11:24 AM
How do you know she is a convert?

I said it was more likely due to Scottish Kellys being all but non-existent. I vote we drop the subject though as it risks us diving into politics (clearly she is a very hot topic right now).

Nqp15hhu
12-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Dub raised it, blame him. Not sure how she is relevant to this thread anyhow.

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 09:17 PM
Whatever about a person converting, by the time they get to Arlenes generation, years of mixing will have mixed out the Irish heritage.

True. The native Irish portion would have declined by 50% with each passing generation. The most Irish thing about Arlene Foster is probably her maiden name and little else. By the way, there is no such thing as "Northern Irish". People in the north of Ireland are either British or Irish.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 09:17 PM
I posted these ideas/questions over at Eupedia while Anthrogenica was down, but hopefully now that it is back up I can get some input on them:

1. While I do believe them in that there is a Scandinavian genetic influence in every Irish region, I am skeptical about the percentages shown. I can't help but wonder if the high Scandinavian percentages shown are partially related to an ANE type of influence.

2. I'm very interested in the Belgian percentages: I notice these are lowest in Ireland and Gaelic Scotland but relatively high in every other region. Although they are overall highest in England, BEL2 looks highest in Orkney III, North England II, N Scotland I, and S Wales I. The most interesting thing about this category is that it is significant in both Aberdeenshire area (North Scotland I) as well as Orkney, which we know were inhabited by the Picts in the past - so I wonder if this BEL2 category might be related to them somehow - either way the Belgium component may be related to P-Celtic speaking peoples.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 09:21 PM
True. The native Irish portion would have declined by 50% with each passing generation. The most Irish thing about Arlene Foster is probably her maiden name and little else. By the way, there is no such thing as "Northern Irish". People in the north of Ireland are either British or Irish.

Do you mean that that is how they see themselves culturally or politically?

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 09:30 PM
Do you mean that that is how they see themselves culturally or politically?

That is how they are. Most Protestants are descended from British colonists while most Catholics are descended from the pre-existing population.

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 09:32 PM
I posted these ideas/questions over at Eupedia while Anthrogenica was down, but hopefully now that it is back up I can get some input on them:

1. While I do believe them in that there is a Scandinavian genetic influence in every Irish region, I am skeptical about the percentages shown. I can't help but wonder if the high Scandinavian percentages shown are partially related to an ANE type of influence.

2. I'm very interested in the Belgian percentages: I notice these are lowest in Ireland and Gaelic Scotland but relatively high in every other region. Although they are overall highest in England, BEL2 looks highest in Orkney III, North England II, N Scotland I, and S Wales I. The most interesting thing about this category is that it is significant in both Aberdeenshire area (North Scotland I) as well as Orkney, which we know were inhabited by the Picts in the past - so I wonder if this BEL2 category might be related to them somehow - either way the Belgium component may be related to P-Celtic speaking peoples.

The Belgium component could also be Germanic.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 10:05 PM
The Belgium component could also be Germanic.

Well, let's consider that in the case of Orkney - Now I don't know for sure, but I don't think the Orkneys received much genetic input from non-Scandinavian Germanic sources - so I think another explanation may be required for the highest percentage of BEL2 there.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 10:13 PM
That is how they are. Most Protestants are descended from British colonists while most Catholics are descended from the pre-existing population.

It's not a comprehensive number, but I know two people of Nothern Irish descent with long family trees. Upon looking at these trees I noticed in both cases there was a fair degree of mixing between British and native Irish people. The DNA Atlas appears to have them as an intermediary between the clusters from Northern Britain and Gaelic Ireland, so that makes me think this isn't too unusual for the Northern Irish. Interesting that they use such hard lines to identify.

Nqp15hhu
12-16-2017, 10:33 PM
I identify as Northern Irish as do many. I feel that this describes our country and our identity quite well, afterall we are a hybrid people, not black and white as you say Kevinduffy.

I don't think you are best placed to say whether or not Northern Irish is an identity as an American.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 10:35 PM
I identify as Northern Irish as do many. I feel that this describes our country and our identity quite well, afterall we are a hybrid people, not black and white as you say Kevinduffy.

I don't think you are best placed to say whether or not Northern Irish is an identity as an American.

Ah okay, so he isn't correct then in his statements about the Northern Irish. Thank you for clarifying.

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 11:09 PM
I identify as Northern Irish as do many. I feel that this describes our country and our identity quite well, afterall we are a hybrid people, not black and white as you say Kevinduffy.

I don't think you are best placed to say whether or not Northern Irish is an identity as an American.

I may be American but I did live in County Monaghan for a few years as a child near the Armagh border. No Irish Catholic that I knew on either side of the border would ever have described themselves as being "Northern Irish" since no self-respecting Irish Catholic would ever use the term "Northern Ireland". Most Irish Catholics refer to the British-occupied region of Ireland as either the Six Counties or the north of Ireland.

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 11:10 PM
Ah okay, so he isn't correct then in his statements about the Northern Irish. Thank you for clarifying.

"Northern Irish" is a term made up by British Protestants in the north of Ireland to try and hide the fact that they are not indigenous to Ireland.

kevinduffy
12-16-2017, 11:11 PM
It's not a comprehensive number, but I know two people of Nothern Irish descent with long family trees. Upon looking at these trees I noticed in both cases there was a fair degree of mixing between British and native Irish people. The DNA Atlas appears to have them as an intermediary between the clusters from Northern Britain and Gaelic Ireland, so that makes me think this isn't too unusual for the Northern Irish. Interesting that they use such hard lines to identify.

How would you know anything about Ireland? As you have pointed out time and again, you have no Irish ancestry.

sktibo
12-16-2017, 11:58 PM
How would you know anything about Ireland? As you have pointed out time and again, you have no Irish ancestry.

Wow. What an incredibly rude post.

First, having no Irish ancestry doesn't have anything to do whatsoever with knowing anything about Ireland. Second, knowing anything about Ireland is completely irrelevant to what you have quoted - it was a comment on a couple of Northern Irish family trees, which upon inspection both contained Native Irish ancestors.

As for myself, finding out that my Irish ancestors were not indigenous to Ireland hasn't changed the fact that I love reading about Ireland and traveling there when I get the chance. To state that a person must be Irish to know anything about Ireland has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on this forum.

kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 01:20 AM
Wow. What an incredibly rude post.

First, having no Irish ancestry doesn't have anything to do whatsoever with knowing anything about Ireland. Second, knowing anything about Ireland is completely irrelevant to what you have quoted - it was a comment on a couple of Northern Irish family trees, which upon inspection both contained Native Irish ancestors.

As for myself, finding out that my Irish ancestors were not indigenous to Ireland hasn't changed the fact that I love reading about Ireland and traveling there when I get the chance. To state that a person must be Irish to know anything about Ireland has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on this forum.

You don't have Irish ancestors. You have British ancestors who invaded Ireland. Sorry if you find this comment to be rude.

Moderator
12-17-2017, 01:29 AM
All members are reminded to keep on topic and refrain from personal attacks. This thread is being monitored.

Anglo-Celtic
12-17-2017, 01:51 AM
I know that, I live in a Protestant area and there are a lot of Protestant o'Niells and Mullans.

I directed that at anyone who reads the thread. Some individuals think that Catholicism and Protestantism are dividing lines that separate "real" Irishmen from the Scots-Irish. It does in many cases, but ethnicity deserves the focus more than labels that don't take certain complexities into account. This whole forum shows why this is so.

Anglo-Celtic
12-17-2017, 01:55 AM
True. The native Irish portion would have declined by 50% with each passing generation. The most Irish thing about Arlene Foster is probably her maiden name and little else. By the way, there is no such thing as "Northern Irish". People in the north of Ireland are either British or Irish.

That's not correct, in the ethnic sense. Some "British" people have Native Irish roots, and some "Irish" people have roots that aren't Native Irish.

sktibo
12-17-2017, 02:15 AM
So back on the topic of the DNA atlas results does anyone else find it odd that the "France" components which are supposed to be the most Celtic are only around the 50-60% mark in the Irish groups? I'm thinking some of the other categories have got to have some of that "Celtic Flavour" thrown in. I'm not sold that those large Scandinavian percentages are truly as large as they appear, if that makes sense.

fridurich
12-17-2017, 03:02 AM
True. The native Irish portion would have declined by 50% with each passing generation. The most Irish thing about Arlene Foster is probably her maiden name and little else. By the way, there is no such thing as "Northern Irish". People in the north of Ireland are either British or Irish.

Thanks for your post. You are right in the sense that autosomal DNA in general declines to about 50 percent less with each succeeding generation. We see this when sometimes blood related cousins get to the point after only a few generations that they no longer show as a match. At that point, they likely still share DNA from that common ancestor, but it has become so small that software can't tell if the segments are from people who are Identical By Descent or Identical By State. After more generations go by (maybe many more), it is possible for two blood related cousins to actually share no DNA at all.

What you were saying would eventually breed out the Gaelic Irish DNA from the Planters, If, and a big if, the Planters only intermarried with people with no Gaelic Irish DNA. However, herein lies the problem, they would have no way to be certain their future spouse had no Gaelic Irish DNA.

In paragraph 3 of the Discussion section https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_population-genetics

the authors say that all three of the Planter clusters have significant admixture from the Gaelic Irish. So, when you have that much Gaelic Irish ancestry in all three groups, even if the Planters did their best to background check every future spouse, as the generations roll on, odds are that some of their descendants will (in some cases unknowingly) marry spouses with enough Gaelic Irish DNA, that even if their children also do their best to not marry anyone with Gaelic Irish descent, some of their descendants will eventually unknowingly marry someone that has just enough Gaelic Irish DNA added to their own little bit of Gaelic Irish DNA to keep, the Gaelic Irish DNA from ever being erased from their gene pool.

In paragraph three of "Discussion" in the IDA article which I show the link to above, did you see the proportions of the different Gaelic Irish and Planter clusters that were the ancestral DNA sources for the three Planter clusters? It also said that the Planter Cluster, Northern Ireland III, has as it's main genetic source for it's admixture event, as Irish.

If you haven't read this paragraph, I encourage you to read it. In the supplementary material they go into their methods of how they detected this British/Irish admixture.

Also, in the next to last paragraph under "Discussion" the authors indicate that some of this admixture between Britain and Ireland, or vice versa, could have occurred before the 17th Century plantations. They specifically mention the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries who were brought into Ireland from the late 13th to an early time in the 15th Centuries A. D. So, they appear to be saying some of this British/Irish admixture may not be from intermingling of Irish and British during the Plantation times, but from earlier times. The Normans and Dal Riata come to mind. Also, a very long time ago, wasn't Armagh a major ecclesiastical center and could this have drawn any settlers from what is now England, Wales, and Scotland?

No one here talks about English slaves. Slavery existed in Ireland until about the 12th century. Perhaps a little bit of this British/Irish admixture happened during that time.

I value your input, Kevin. Tell me what you think of what the authors say in paragraph three of "Admixture within Ireland" and next to last paragraph in "Discussion".

Kind Regards

kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 03:17 AM
That's not correct, in the ethnic sense. Some "British" people have Native Irish roots, and some "Irish" people have roots that aren't Native Irish.

But most British people do not have native Irish ancestry just as most native Irish don't have British ancestry.

Sikeliot
12-17-2017, 03:17 AM
"Northern Irish" is a term made up by British Protestants in the north of Ireland to try and hide the fact that they are not indigenous to Ireland.

As if in the grand scheme of things, the British and Irish are that genetically different. They are closer to one another than either is to anyone else, despite clear differences... the difference is roughly of equal magnitude as the one of Sicily to Crete, Palestine to Lebanon, or Serbia to Croatia.

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 05:57 AM
Any of these records online? If yes, could you post links to them if you have them?

Sorry I haven't looked at them in years and that was a couple PC's ago so don't have any links but I believe they were the 1901 & 1911 census records. They gave names, ages, sex, occupation, reading ability, languages, religion, relationship to home owner, etc.

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 06:29 AM
Various explanations for the high Norwegian component:

Norse Gaels
The Norse–Gaels (Old Irish: Gall-Goídil, Irish: Gall-Ghaedheil or Gall-Ghaeil, Scottish Gaelic: Gall-Ghàidheil, 'foreigner-Gaels') were a people of mixed Gaelic and Norse ancestry and culture. They emerged in the Viking Age, when Vikings who settled in Ireland and in Scotland adopted Gaelic culture and intermarried with Gaels. The Norse–Gaels dominated much of the Irish Sea and Scottish Sea regions from the 9th to 12th centuries. They founded the Kingdom of the Isles (which included the Hebrides and the Isle of Man), the Kingdom of Dublin, the Lordship of Galloway (which is named after them), and ruled the Kingdom of York for a time. The most powerful Norse–Gaelic dynasty were the Uí Ímair or House of Ivar.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OIH7Kxe273EsLYamV9GOjomg60-3LuoW

Lords of the Isles
The Lord of the Isles is a title of Scottish nobility with historical roots that go back beyond the Kingdom of Scotland. It emerged from a series of hybrid Viking/Gaelic rulers of the west coast and islands of Scotland in the Middle Ages, who wielded sea-power with fleets of galleys (birlinns). Although they were, at times, nominal vassals of the Kings of Norway, Ireland, or Scotland, the island chiefs remained functionally independent for many centuries. Their territory included the Hebrides, (Skye and Ross from 1438), Knoydart, Ardnamurchan, and the Kintyre peninsula. At their height they were the greatest landowners and most powerful lords in the British Isles after the Kings of England and Scotland.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles

Irish Slaves during Viking Raids
In the Early and High Middle Ages the Vikings began to travel and raid across Europe and the Atlantic. During these expeditions the Vikings captured many people whom they enslaved or sold into the slave-trade. For the western portion of the Viking Expansion, many of the enslaved were Irish. The enslavement of the Irish by the Norse continued through the end of the Viking Age and occurred not only in the British Isles but also in Iceland. The process of the Viking Expansion and enslavement of the Irish influenced Norse culture and social identity.

https://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ie/&httpsredir=1&article=2231&context=honr_theses

Well at the risk of sounding like a broken record I'll say it once more: the Ulster cluster is slightly higher than the west Scot one in Norse ancestry on the bar graph. Unless it's not to scale because of a mistake the most likely reason appears to me that west Scots aren't a good representation of medieval/early modern Islemen/gallowglass/redshanks or whatever else, or at least the upper class mercenary ones

sktibo
12-17-2017, 06:48 AM
Well at the risk of sounding like a broken record I'll say it once more: the Ulster cluster is slightly higher than the west Scot one in Norse ancestry on the bar graph. Unless it's not to scale because of a mistake the most likely reason appears to me that west Scots aren't a good representation of medieval/early modern Islemen/gallowglass/redshanks or whatever else, or at least the upper class mercenary ones

IIRC after the Lordship of the Isles under the MacDonalds lost hold in Argyll and Islay, they were largely replaced by Campbells and their allies - this may be significant in the graphs as I think I remember the majority of the samples for W Scotland coming from Islay and at least a few from Argyll. So in this category I think that if we went back before 1600 it would be a good bit different.

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 07:43 AM
I don't know what your point is?

What I replied to was "What would Anglos have to do with Presbyterians in Northern Ireland though?"

I wrote "Presbyterians didn't exist until John Knox. There was a colony in east Ulster, The Earldom of Ulster, for a while. There were also Scots involved there long previous to the reformation"

So it had to do with the colony existing long before Presbyterians, John Knox, or Jehan Cauvin and it had people from England in it whose traces may still be there. I also mentioned Scots were involved as well under the English for completeness.

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 07:46 AM
Whatever about a person converting, by the time they get to Arlenes generation, years of mixing will have mixed out the Irish heritage.

Apparently a lot of it showed up in the study for others.

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 07:55 AM
"Northern Irish" is a term made up by British Protestants in the north of Ireland to try and hide the fact that they are not indigenous to Ireland.

Indigenous? Where do you think a good percentage of pre planter names, like McCabe, Sweeney, Sheehey, FitzGerald came from? For that matter where did M222 or the La Tene Celt group come from? The Beakers?

Pascal C
12-17-2017, 08:05 AM
IIRC after the Lordship of the Isles under the MacDonalds lost hold in Argyll and Islay, they were largely replaced by Campbells and their allies - this may be significant in the graphs as I think I remember the majority of the samples for W Scotland coming from Islay and at least a few from Argyll. So in this category I think that if we went back before 1600 it would be a good bit different.

You're right. That was their reason for increasingly moving to Antrim in the 15th century. Great point.

avalon
12-17-2017, 10:31 AM
It might really mean that the far coast of Connacht did not receive much migration across Ireland, meaning that continental migrations did not make it all the way to the coast.

You might be right there, although on the west coast it is a light shade of brown. To me this probably means that there is a modest genetic barrier between the far west of Connacht and the rest of Connacht. If you look at the sample locations they have about 5 from the coast but the bulk of Connacht samples are from the centre and the east of the province.

Interestingly, it appears that the strongest genetic barrier within Ireland is between Leinster and Munster.

avalon
12-17-2017, 11:07 AM
So back on the topic of the DNA atlas results does anyone else find it odd that the "France" components which are supposed to be the most Celtic are only around the 50-60% mark in the Irish groups? I'm thinking some of the other categories have got to have some of that "Celtic Flavour" thrown in. I'm not sold that those large Scandinavian percentages are truly as large as they appear, if that makes sense.

This is the problem with comparing modern populations to determine ancient migrations. The modern French are like everyone, a mixture of different things - unlikely to be wholly Celtic in the sense there is probably a pre-Celtic Neolithic basis to the Northern French population, plus impacts from the Roman Empire, plus Germanic impact in the form of the Franks and later the Normans.

NW France in the form of Bretagne is undoubtedly the most Celtic part of France but even there the modern pop will have other admixtures.

You made an interesting point about the Belgian components but here we have exactly the same problem. It's a mixture - Iron Age Belgae came into Britain from this area, as did Medieval Flemish, so I think unpicking these modern components, ie, how much is Celtic or Germanic is very difficult without ancient genomes. Even Bell Beaker likely arrived in Britain via Belgium so there may well be a remnant of that in modern Belgian population.

Having said all that, I still think these ancestry profiles based on modern populations can put us in the right "ball park."

Nqp15hhu
12-17-2017, 12:30 PM
As if in the grand scheme of things, the British and Irish are that genetically different. They are closer to one another than either is to anyone else, despite clear differences... the difference is roughly of equal magnitude as the one of Sicily to Crete, Palestine to Lebanon, or Serbia to Croatia.

Exactly. I'm not pleased with KevinDuffy's attitude! He is incredibly rude and clearly showing himself to be completely uneducated with regards to be British and "Irish" heritage, ancestry and history.

Another example of a Black and White American approach.

Jessie
12-17-2017, 12:39 PM
You might be right there, although on the west coast it is a light shade of brown. To me this probably means that there is a modest genetic barrier between the far west of Connacht and the rest of Connacht. If you look at the sample locations they have about 5 from the coast but the bulk of Connacht samples are from the centre and the east of the province.

Interestingly, it appears that the strongest genetic barrier within Ireland is between Leinster and Munster.

Mountains might be the reason re Leinster and Munster. Just surmising here possibly some others might have a better explanation e.g. tribal reasons.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Topography_Ireland.jpg/1200px-Topography_Ireland.jpg

Sikeliot
12-17-2017, 12:54 PM
Exactly. I'm not pleased with KevinDuffy's attitude! He is incredibly rude and clearly showing himself to be completely uneducated with regards to be British and "Irish" heritage, ancestry and history.

Another example of a Black and White American approach.

We can pretend all we want that the "Gaelic" Irish are 100% indigenous too, but their 20% Norwegian DNA says otherwise.

sktibo
12-17-2017, 07:37 PM
We can pretend all we want that the "Gaelic" Irish are 100% indigenous too, but their 20% Norwegian DNA says otherwise.

While I'm not sure if it is actually as high as 20%, I do believe that there is a significant Scandinavian genetic component, but I don't like it! Really interesting and unexpected however.

kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 09:12 PM
We can pretend all we want that the "Gaelic" Irish are 100% indigenous too, but their 20% Norwegian DNA says otherwise.

I am not sure how much Norwegian DNA the indigenous Gaelic Irish have but I can assure you that that the indigenous Gaelic Irish have more indigenous Irish Gaelic DNA than the British colonists in the north of Ireland do.

Nqp15hhu
12-17-2017, 09:13 PM
Hilarious.