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kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 09:14 PM
Exactly. I'm not pleased with KevinDuffy's attitude! He is incredibly rude and clearly showing himself to be completely uneducated with regards to be British and "Irish" heritage, ancestry and history.

Another example of a Black and White American approach.

Why do you put the word Irish in quotation marks? Do you believe that the Irish do not exist?

Sikeliot
12-17-2017, 09:38 PM
I am not sure how much Norwegian DNA the indigenous Gaelic Irish have but I can assure you that that the indigenous Gaelic Irish have more indigenous Irish Gaelic DNA than the British colonists in the north of Ireland do.

Also with the exception of some Ulster Catholics and South Munster it seems that the rest of Ireland does have some degree of British ancestry.

Nqp15hhu
12-17-2017, 10:00 PM
Apparently I don't according to AncestryDNA, either that or I have it in Europe West.

kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 10:10 PM
Also with the exception of some Ulster Catholics and South Munster it seems that the rest of Ireland does have some degree of British ancestry.

Perhaps but the British colonists in the north of Ireland have more British ancestry than the native Irish Catholic population.

kevinduffy
12-17-2017, 10:11 PM
Apparently I don't according to AncestryDNA, either that or I have it in Europe West.

I believe that Europe West is a Germanic group which would likely include Anglo-Saxon.

avalon
12-17-2017, 10:25 PM
We can pretend all we want that the "Gaelic" Irish are 100% indigenous too, but their 20% Norwegian DNA says otherwise.

I've added up all the Norwegian components from supplementary table 5 (there are 13 of them) and Ulster does indeed have the highest in Ireland at 22%.

However, I don't think all of this relates to the Viking Age. I think to a certain extent, these components based on modern populations are reflecting very deep background ancestry.

Take the example of Spain and Sweden, which according to this paper contribute to all Irish and British clusters in fairly equal measures, but neither is known to have had any direct impact historically or archaeologically on Britain or Ireland. So IMO it must be ancient shared ancestry, eg Neolithic related or perhaps related to the Indo-European expansion into Northern Europe. Norwegian component might also be partly down to this.

sktibo
12-17-2017, 11:54 PM
I've added up all the Norwegian components from supplementary table 5 (there are 13 of them) and Ulster does indeed have the highest in Ireland at 22%.

However, I don't think all of this relates to the Viking Age. I think to a certain extent, these components based on modern populations are reflecting very deep background ancestry.

Take the example of Spain and Sweden, which according to this paper contribute to all Irish and British clusters in fairly equal measures, but neither is known to have had any direct impact historically or archaeologically on Britain or Ireland. So IMO it must be ancient shared ancestry, eg Neolithic related or perhaps related to the Indo-European expansion into Northern Europe. Norwegian component might also be partly down to this.

Yeah, in one of my previous posts I was asking if anyone else thought these high Norwegian numbers might be due to EHG admixture - according to this one attached chart Norway has the highest "Steppe" like admixture of the modern populations listed. I'm thinking a lot of this high Norway percentage may actually be acting as something of an ancient Steppic indicator rather than actual Scandinavian ancestry. Also, France has a lot of "southern" or Neolithic admixture doesn't it? Combined these numbers might be balancing out to something that resembles one of the ancient insular Bell Beaker samples. Further, our modern Irish members on other calculators seem consistently close to Bell Beaker samples that we have access to. I'm not buying the Norway percentage as they have it, but I think they aren't entirely wrong.

20476

On the other side of this coin, if it turns out in the future that this Norwegian percentage isn't actually indicative of Norwegian or Scandinavian ancestry, then that would mean that the Western Scottish samples are also lacking in this - since there is so much other evidence, both historically and in Y DNA that there was significant Scandinavian admixture in the Hebrides / West Scotland, and the Norwegian numbers for Ireland and W. Scotland are so similar, This is why I am inclined to think this is at least partially true.

alan
12-18-2017, 12:35 AM
I don’t think the term native is entirely helpful. The Irish population has clearly been frequently added to and at least twice radically altered in the 10000 years of human population history in Ireland. Is an Irish person whose ancestor arrived I200 or 1300 much more native than a planter who arovrf 300 years later? Only insignificantly so given the island has been settled for 10000 years. The term native is arbitrary

Jessie
12-18-2017, 01:21 AM
Yeah, in one of my previous posts I was asking if anyone else thought these high Norwegian numbers might be due to EHG admixture - according to this one attached chart Norway has the highest "Steppe" like admixture of the modern populations listed. I'm thinking a lot of this high Norway percentage may actually be acting as something of an ancient Steppic indicator rather than actual Scandinavian ancestry. Also, France has a lot of "southern" or Neolithic admixture doesn't it? Combined these numbers might be balancing out to something that resembles one of the ancient insular Bell Beaker samples. Further, our modern Irish members on other calculators seem consistently close to Bell Beaker samples that we have access to. I'm not buying the Norway percentage as they have it, but I think they aren't entirely wrong.

20476

On the other side of this coin, if it turns out in the future that this Norwegian percentage isn't actually indicative of Norwegian or Scandinavian ancestry, then that would mean that the Western Scottish samples are also lacking in this - since there is so much other evidence, both historically and in Y DNA that there was significant Scandinavian admixture in the Hebrides / West Scotland, and the Norwegian numbers for Ireland and W. Scotland are so similar, This is why I am inclined to think this is at least partially true.

It can get very complicated so not sure what to make of it. They did date the admixture to the time of the Vikings. Some of the people involved in this were also the ones that did the PoBI like Walter Bodmer. I would hope they know what they are doing. :)

Another thing that I've just thought of is the Danish admixture which is higher in the English. Why was that not attributed to Vikings in the PoBI study?

sktibo
12-18-2017, 01:23 AM
It can get very complicated so not sure what to make of it. They did date the admixture to the time of the Vikings. Some of the people involved in this were also the ones that did the PoBI like Walter Bodmer. I would hope they know what they are doing. :)

Well, they certainly know better than I would, I am by no means an expert, but I do think that I should question everything and one thing I've learned from my time here playing with DNA is that ancient admixture seems inescapable - that said their results could of course be entirely true; it might actually be an incredible amount of actual Scandinavian ancestry in the modern Irish.

Jessie
12-18-2017, 01:29 AM
Well, they certainly know better than I would, I am by no means an expert, but I do think that I should question everything and one thing I've learned from my time here playing with DNA is that ancient admixture seems inescapable - that said their results could of course be entirely true; it might actually be an incredible amount of actual Scandinavian ancestry in the modern Irish.

It is great to question I agree and adds a lot to the discussion. I noticed they did compare the ancient Ballynahatty and Rathlin samples to modern Irish. Also the same people that did the Rathlin paper were involved in the Insular Celtic paper. You would think they would take all that into account in their conclusions? I would have thought like yourself that the Irish were fairly similar 2,000 years ago to today's people.

sktibo
12-18-2017, 01:34 AM
It is great to question I agree and adds a lot to the discussion. I noticed they did compare the ancient Ballynahatty and Rathlin samples to modern Irish. Also the same people that did the Rathlin paper were involved in the Insular Celtic paper. You would think they would take all that into account in their conclusions? I would have thought like yourself that the Irish were fairly similar 2,000 years ago to today's people.

Especially since yourself and other Irish forumites match the Rathlin beaker samples so closely on other calculators. What I'd really like to see is Rathlin added onto the bar graph next to the modern categories; that would clear this question up.

However, if we assume that we can take what they are telling us at face value; that France is Celtic, German is Anglo Saxon, Danish is also Germanic / Anglo Saxon, and Norwegian is Scandinavian, then what is Belgium? I don't think it's Germanic because
1. The France percentages being the sole source of Celtic would be too darn low, especially for the Irish populations
2. Belgic forumites such as Huijibregts seem to appear close to Iron Age Britons in PCAs such as Davidski's Northern Europe PCA - I don't get the impression the Belgians are a particularly Germanic flavour.
3. Along with Spain and Sweden, the Belgium component appears to be one of the most consistent components across all populations

Jessie
12-18-2017, 01:38 AM
Especially since yourself and other Irish forumites match the Rathlin beaker samples so closely on other calculators. What I'd really like to see is Rathlin added onto the bar graph next to the modern categories; that would clear this question up.

However, if we assume that we can take what they are telling us at face value; that France is Celtic, German is Anglo Saxon, Danish is also Germanic / Anglo Saxon, and Norwegian is Scandinavian, then what is Belgium? I don't think it's Germanic because
1. The France percentages being the sole source of Celtic would be too darn low, especially for the Irish populations
2. Belgic forumites such as Huijibregts seem to appear close to Iron Age Britons in PCAs such as Davidski's Northern Europe PCA - I don't get the impression the Belgians are a particularly Germanic flavour.

I thought that Belgium might be related to the Belgae and I think they had more effect on Britain than Ireland. It is interesting the Q-Celtic and P-Celtic differences across the Isles. Ireland was also more isolated than Britain so that's what I thought it might represent. I'd love to know what others think about this.

Sikeliot
12-18-2017, 01:45 AM
I've added up all the Norwegian components from supplementary table 5 (there are 13 of them) and Ulster does indeed have the highest in Ireland at 22%.

I don't have the study's URL. Can you send me this and the table? I want to see it myself.

kevinduffy
12-18-2017, 02:24 AM
I don’t think the term native is entirely helpful. The Irish population has clearly been frequently added to and at least twice radically altered in the 10000 years of human population history in Ireland. Is an Irish person whose ancestor arrived I200 or 1300 much more native than a planter who arovrf 300 years later? Only insignificantly so given the island has been settled for 10000 years. The term native is arbitrary

What do you mean by helpful? Should I pretend that British invaders did not use violence against my ancestors to steal their land?

sktibo
12-18-2017, 02:28 AM
I thought that Belgium might be related to the Belgae and I think they had more effect on Britain than Ireland. It is interesting the Q-Celtic and P-Celtic differences across the Isles. Ireland was also more isolated than Britain so that's what I thought it might represent. I'd love to know what others think about this.

Well, the interesting thing about that is that the Belgium category does appear to be a P-Celtic / Q-Celtic difference, W Scotland and all the Irish categories are markedly lower in Belgium than the non Goidelic British regions

kevinduffy
12-18-2017, 02:42 AM
Well, the interesting thing about that is that the Belgium category does appear to be a P-Celtic / Q-Celtic difference, W Scotland and all the Irish categories are markedly lower in Belgium than the non Goidelic British regions

Which means that the Belgium category could be at least partially Germanic.

sktibo
12-18-2017, 03:17 AM
Which means that the Belgium category could be at least partially Germanic.

Except that Wales has a higher Belgium than the Irish categories, and the Welsh according to this data have more France / Celtic than the Irish - so that doesn't entirely make sense. Of course, every country including France used in this has some degree of Germanic ancestry

Anglo-Celtic
12-18-2017, 04:27 AM
But most British people do not have native Irish ancestry just as most native Irish don't have British ancestry.

This is true, but most is not all. That's what I'm saying.

sktibo
12-18-2017, 04:33 AM
This is true, but most is not all. That's what I'm saying.

Don't quite a lot of English people have some Irish ancestry due to recent migrations? Most English posters here have an Irish flag in their profile it seems.. Thinking about it some more, almost every English person I've met has some ancestry from the other countries of the British Isles

Anglo-Celtic
12-18-2017, 04:49 AM
Exactly. I'm not pleased with KevinDuffy's attitude! He is incredibly rude and clearly showing himself to be completely uneducated with regards to be British and "Irish" heritage, ancestry and history.

Another example of a Black and White American approach.

I'm American, and I can find a few shades (not fifty) of gray when I look hard and long enough. ;) It could be that the conventional wisdom of pop culture presents an unrealistic view of all things Irish in that many Americans tend to base their ideas on what they hear/see the most. It's understandable. I fell prey to it, myself, and some agenda-driven anthropology boards made it worse. This forum is head and shoulders above that kind of thing. It's great when our assumptions are shown to be not entirely true. We can just go where the information takes us. For instance, it was good to learn how genetically close the Southwest Scottish were to the Native Irish after I falsely assumed that they were quite distinct ("Celtic" compared to "Anglo").

Anglo-Celtic
12-18-2017, 05:05 AM
Don't quite a lot of English people have some Irish ancestry due to recent migrations? Most English posters here have an Irish flag in their profile it seems.. Thinking about it some more, almost every English person I've met has some ancestry from the other countries of the British Isles

Three of the Beatles come to mind. Many English people do have Irish blood, but I'm not sure that most of them do. It seems like the British are catching up with the Americans in Anglo-Celtic blood since it really took off during the Industrial Revolution when there was more movement within the UK. Colonial Americans, in our western fringes, often married outside of their ethnicity because of the very small populations. That's why you saw weddings between a Murphy and a Perkins, whose daughter would go on to marry a Campbell. It was like that for generations in some places. You can add continental blood, especially German, to the mix. Many Americans are mixed in this way, and it's safe to say that it's more common in the UK now than it was during the American colonial era.

kevinduffy
12-18-2017, 05:34 AM
For instance, it was good to learn how genetically close the Southwest Scottish were to the Native Irish after I falsely assumed that they were quite distinct ("Celtic" compared to "Anglo").

The southwest Scottish - if you are talking about the Lowland Scots - are genetically distinct from the Native Irish.

Jan_Noack
12-18-2017, 05:51 AM
:) yes and sum to 100%. the mtDNA would be handy as well?

Jessie
12-18-2017, 06:14 AM
Don't quite a lot of English people have some Irish ancestry due to recent migrations? Most English posters here have an Irish flag in their profile it seems.. Thinking about it some more, almost every English person I've met has some ancestry from the other countries of the British Isles

Yes this is very common. Most Irish people have family in other parts of Britain. I have relatives that went to Scotland, Wales and England. I have some relatives that now live in Ireland that are half English and half Irish.

CannabisErectusHibernius
12-18-2017, 10:27 AM
Wow, someone is really shitting this thread. Not all Hiberno-Yankees are angry fascists, friends.

Pascal C
12-18-2017, 10:45 AM
What do you mean by helpful? Should I pretend that British invaders did not use violence against my ancestors to steal their land?

enough trolling okay "Duffy"

Pascal C
12-18-2017, 10:56 AM
Wow, someone is really shitting this thread. Not all Hiberno-Yankees are angry fascists, friends.

I'm not buying that poster's ancestry yet.

Dubhthach
12-18-2017, 12:49 PM
Don't quite a lot of English people have some Irish ancestry due to recent migrations? Most English posters here have an Irish flag in their profile it seems.. Thinking about it some more, almost every English person I've met has some ancestry from the other countries of the British Isles

Realtively recently yes, for example about 1 million Irish born people live in Britain. Given large scale emigration of Irish to Britain in the 1950's it's estimated that up to 8 million people in Britain can claim Irish citizenship due to having at least one Irish grandparent. If you factor in irish migration since the 1840's it's reckon that about 15million British have at least some form of Irish ancestry in the last 150 years.

Dubhthach
12-18-2017, 12:56 PM
With regards to Scandinavia, interesting in Ireland project we just got a join request from a Norwegian who got a M222+ result in 23andme and has ancestry in western Norway since the mid 17th century. Obviously we need STR's to process a join request but it would be interesting to see what part of M222 he falls into. For example we have a group of Scandinavians under A1206 (which is part of DF105).
eg. FGC23742 -> A1206 -> FGC23739
what's interesting is we had a recent O'Shaughnessy (good Galway name) BigY who is FGC23739 but negative for all of the SNP's found in the Scandinavians
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1119&star=false

I recall looking at the public Swedish genome project, all of the M222+ men I found (I think there was 3) turned out to be A1206+ which was interesting.

cilldara
12-18-2017, 01:58 PM
I received an email from Ed Gilbert today with the results from the Irish DNA Atlas Project. I assume everyone who took part in the study also received an email as well.

Heber
12-18-2017, 02:44 PM
Received this nice newsletter from Ed Gilbert today. Referenced figures are in the paper.

Dear Gerard Corcoran,

I am writing to thank you for your participation in the Irish DNA Atlas as well as to update you on progress with the project.

Firstly, we have recently published our results using the Irish DNA Atlas to describe the population genetics of Ireland (please a link to the paper) as, “The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland” in Scientific Reports, a Nature Publishing Group Journal. In our report we find; i) different groups of Irish individuals, clustered by genetic similarity alone; ii) the genetic differences between these groups are incredibly small, iii) members of each of these groups share ancestries from similar regions in Ireland (see image below); iv) we observe a migration event into the north of Ireland that dates somewhere in the 17th and 18th centuries and is from Britain; v) we find a number of subtle genetic barriers in Ireland, notably in the north, and between Leinster and Munster; and vi) finally we find a significant level of Norwegian-like genetic ancestry throughout Ireland and this is associated with a genetic migration into Ireland around the turn of the first millennium.

Using the Irish DNA Atlas in conjunction with a dataset of British individuals with regional ancestry (the People of the British Isles Study) we were able to clusters 2,103 individuals from Ireland and Britain based on genetic similarity, as 30 distinct genetic groups (see image below). People in a group are more genetically similar to each other than they are to people in other groups. When we colour coded each participant by their group, and placed them on a map based on where their great-grandparents were born, we generated the figure shown below.

Figure 1.
https://pin.it/2svp3zoor4qiff

We found, analysing the Atlas, that the broadest groups within Ireland are either; nearly 100% made up of Irish/Northern Irish individuals (i.e. from the island of Ireland), or are a mix between Irish and mainland British individuals. In the case of the latter, this suggests that those (Irish and mainland British) individuals have shared Irish and British genetic ancestry. The Irish individuals within these mixed groups are mainly from the north of Ireland (predominantly those who are blue crosses in the image above), and the British members are predominantly from the north of England and the south-west of Scotland.

The clusters of near 100% Irish membership we interpret as mainly ‘Gaelic’ Irish, and the genetic differences between these groups are incredibly small. As you can see the clusters are grouped geographically and most are remarkably faithful to the boundaries of the Provinces in Ireland – suggesting that these Provinces and the kingdoms they represent have subtly impacted the genetic landscape of Ireland. Of particular note is within Co. Clare, which has historically been both part of Munster and Connacht. Individuals with ancestry from Co. Clare reflect this by showing a mix of genetic groups found within both Munster and Connacht.

In addition to identifying different genetic groups within Ireland we sought to investigate whether we could detect evidence that migrations into Ireland in the past have impacted the genetics within Ireland. We had already identified groups of Irish individuals mainly in the north of the island of Ireland who appeared to a mixture of Irish and British genetics, and so we tested whether this could be due to a specific event creating these mixed groups. We estimated that these mixed groups are from a number of admixture events in the past, dating around the 17th and 18th centuries.

As well as migrations from Britain, we asked whether we could find evidence of migrations from wider afield, i.e. from continental Europe. We detected a surprisingly larger amount of Scandinavian (specifically Norwegian) looking ancestry in all our Irish clusters, see below image. This image shows along the horizontal axis each of the 30 genetic groups identified in Ireland and Britain. Along the vertical axis is the average proportion of the genome that’s closest similarity is found in each of the 10 reference European populations. As you can see, Ireland and Wales share a lot of French-like ancestry, but Ireland shows a lot of Norwegian-like ancestry compared to England or Wales. In fact, in this respect, Ireland shows a greater similarity to Orkney.

Figure 3
https://pin.it/p5basyq5mjr2rb

This similar pattern of elevated Norwegian-like in Ireland and Orkney is interesting as Orkney is a region with strong evidence of Norwegian Viking genetic migration and mixture. We therefore investigated whether this Norwegian ancestry in Ireland was due to a mixture event dating from the time of the Viking activities in Ireland. We dated the ancestry to sometime around 1000 AD, which would make sense with a ‘Viking Hypothesis’. This result was perhaps the most surprising using the Atlas, as previous work with Y-chromosomes found no evidence of Norse genetics within Ireland. However now, with whole-genome data, we are able to show the extent of Norwegian mixture within Ireland.

This work published work is not intended as the end of the Irish DNA Atlas, we aim to continue to investigate the genetics of Ireland, and links between Ireland and neighbouring regions.

I wish to again thank you for your participation, and I hope you have found this newsletter of interest. If you have questions about the study or the points discussed above, please do not hesitate to either Prof. Gianpiero Cavalleri or myself.

With best wishes,

Edmund Gilbert

RCSI Molecular & Cellular Therapeutics (MCT)

Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

123 St. Stephen's Green, Dublin 2, Ireland


Edmund Gilbert
PHD Student

Dubhthach
12-18-2017, 03:09 PM
As an aside here is a map of the major isoglosses in modern Irish.

http://nos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/learscail-canuinti-724x1024.jpg

Nqp15hhu
12-18-2017, 04:12 PM
Great paper. But could someone tell me how these people from Northern Ireland have isolated their ancestors to be from Southwest Scotland and Northern England, if AncestryDNA places Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and my Heritage etc into one category?

What site is being used to test to this geographic resolution?

Dubhthach
12-18-2017, 04:45 PM
They are using the PoBI dataset to provide the British clusters. What should be remember is that in Ancestry due to it's global scale they only drill down so far when it comes to splitting up sample clusters. After all within their 'Ireland, Scotland, Wales' cluster the level of difference between say someone from Wales and someone from Galway is relatively small compare to either of these samples against someone from Crete

In comparison in this study like the PoBI study you have large dataset from restricted geographic level where when running 'admixture runs' you can go to high enough 'K level' to spilt out groups etc. So in People of British Isles study they first spilt out a distinct Orkney cluster, than a unified Welsh one, than eventually they had clusters in such places as Cumbria, NE England, Welsh Borders, Devon and obviously various one in Scotland.

In the Irish DNA atlas they merged this dataset with their own dataset and basically repeated the process as outlined in PoBI study.

Nic Fiachra
12-18-2017, 04:50 PM
The clusters of near 100% Irish membership we interpret as mainly ‘Gaelic’ Irish, and the genetic differences between these groups are incredibly small. As you can see the clusters are grouped geographically and most are remarkably faithful to the boundaries of the Provinces in Ireland – suggesting that these Provinces and the kingdoms they represent have subtly impacted the genetic landscape of Ireland. Of particular note is within Co. Clare, which has historically been both part of Munster and Connacht. Individuals with ancestry from Co. Clare reflect this by showing a mix of genetic groups found within both Munster and Connacht.

In addition to identifying different genetic groups within Ireland we sought to investigate whether we could detect evidence that migrations into Ireland in the past have impacted the genetics within Ireland. We had already identified groups of Irish individuals mainly in the north of the island of Ireland who appeared to a mixture of Irish and British genetics, and so we tested whether this could be due to a specific event creating these mixed groups. We estimated that these mixed groups are from a number of admixture events in the past, dating around the 17th and 18th centuries.

Thank you for posting this email. It reiterates what has been concluded by the authors of the study, that a population admixture, interpreted by the authors to be 'Gaelic Irish', is apparently a long established, and distinct, regional genetic identity:

"In conclusion we have identified fine-scale genetic structure in Ireland that is geographically stratified and surprisingly faithful to the historical boundaries of Irish Provinces and kingdoms."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

avalon
12-18-2017, 04:58 PM
Yeah, in one of my previous posts I was asking if anyone else thought these high Norwegian numbers might be due to EHG admixture - according to this one attached chart Norway has the highest "Steppe" like admixture of the modern populations listed. I'm thinking a lot of this high Norway percentage may actually be acting as something of an ancient Steppic indicator rather than actual Scandinavian ancestry. Also, France has a lot of "southern" or Neolithic admixture doesn't it? Combined these numbers might be balancing out to something that resembles one of the ancient insular Bell Beaker samples. Further, our modern Irish members on other calculators seem consistently close to Bell Beaker samples that we have access to. I'm not buying the Norway percentage as they have it, but I think they aren't entirely wrong.



The authors of the paper do seem pretty confident about this admixture from the Viking Age but I do agree that some part of it may be ancient 'steppe like' admixture.

Take the example of Devon. This has the lowest Norwegian % of all Brit/Irish clusters at 7.6% which is totally in line with known history as the Norse Vikings did not settle there at all. it was well away from their main zones of activity. It's not unreasonable to think that Norse genetic impact on Devon is pretty close to 0% so this may be indication of how much this Norwegian is ancient admixture. It might be around 5-10% across all clusters.

avalon
12-18-2017, 05:01 PM
I don't have the study's URL. Can you send me this and the table? I want to see it myself.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_population-genetics#Sec16

avalon
12-18-2017, 05:09 PM
Another thing that I've just thought of is the Danish admixture which is higher in the English. Why was that not attributed to Vikings in the PoBI study?

I think the reasoning was that Danes and Anglo-Saxons have very close geographic origins and are very difficult to tell apart. Your Norwegian was a different type of Viking, perhaps more distinct genetically.

Dubhthach
12-18-2017, 05:16 PM
It raises though the major issue I have with both PoBI and Irish DNA Atlas, modern European populations are not good proxies for ancient populations. Taking modern Danish (or French) populations and using them to model admixture into modern Irish population seems to ignore that both populations have undergone genetic drift over the last 1,000 years. Ideally we should have baselines set using actual ancient DNA from dated archaelogical context

eg. modern samples modelled using Iron age/Early Christian period samples + Iron age/Viking period Scandinavian samples.

given we don't currently have any such samples (from Ireland anyways not sure about Scandinavia) it would have been interesting if they had modelled the samples using Iron age samples from Britain (eg. Yorkshire, Hinxton etc.) This would have produced results along lines of: "Modern Irish samples appear to show a admixture event between population akin to Iron age samples from Britain and population X,Y,Z"

Nqp15hhu
12-18-2017, 06:05 PM
Is there a DNA test similar to the POBI test for those of us who have origins in the British Isles, then?

J1 DYS388=13
12-18-2017, 07:54 PM
Is there a DNA test similar to the POBI test for those of us who have origins in the British Isles, then?

There's https://www.livingdna.com . But some of us were sceptical about the results.

sktibo
12-18-2017, 08:09 PM
Is there a DNA test similar to the POBI test for those of us who have origins in the British Isles, then?

While I used to recommend Living DNA, I am now fairly sure that their chip they test with is wildly inaccurate and a waste of your money. I think it may be a great option if / when they accept autosomal transfers from non-imputed test results

avalon
12-18-2017, 09:21 PM
Well, the interesting thing about that is that the Belgium category does appear to be a P-Celtic / Q-Celtic difference, W Scotland and all the Irish categories are markedly lower in Belgium than the non Goidelic British regions

The other thing to remember about the Belgium category is that we know from medieval history that the Flemish were a significant migrant group to Britain in the centuries following the Norman conquest. There are known settlements such as in South Pembrokeshire but there were also other impacts elsewhere in Britain, including Eastern Scotland - https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ishr/Flemish/index.htm

https://moultray.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/flemish-influence-in-scotland/

Looking at IDA results, North Scotland II which is one of the Aberdeenshire clusters is quite high at 16% Belgian but of course the problem with using modern populations is determining how much of that relates to Iron Age or to Medieval Flemish, or to something else. IIRC, high levels of U106 have been noted in NE Scotland, which may be further evidence of a Flemish impact there.

Sikeliot
12-18-2017, 10:37 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_population-genetics#Sec16

Supplemental Table 2 is the most informative for me.

As it shows genetic distance, it seems to me that the most to least "British-like" provinces in Ireland are, in order (and it seems to be roughly the same order no matter which English or Scottish group you use):

Dublin (most British-like)
Leinster
Central Ireland
Connacht/North Munster
South Munster
Ulster (least British-like)

It seems "Central Ireland" includes both Connacht and Leinster samples, so the one labeled Connacht might be the coastal area, and Leinster might be closer to the Munster border or on the coast below Dublin. Just my guess.

Also interesting is some South Wales clusters and North Scotland have greater distance to England, than does most of Ireland minus Ulster/South Munster.

Sikeliot
12-18-2017, 10:47 PM
So it seems Ireland's most "isolated" groups are those at its northernmost and southwesternmost extremes, minus descendants of British settlers in the north.

EDIT: South Munster corresponds roughly with County Kerry and adjacent parts of Cork. Connacht cluster is really the northern part of Connacht, whereas Central Ireland goes across Galway.

Nqp15hhu
12-19-2017, 12:03 AM
.......

kevinduffy
12-19-2017, 12:12 AM
Supplemental Table 2 is the most informative for me.

As it shows genetic distance, it seems to me that the most to least "British-like" provinces in Ireland are, in order (and it seems to be roughly the same order no matter which English or Scottish group you use):

Dublin (most British-like)
Leinster
Central Ireland
Connacht/North Munster
South Munster
Ulster (least British-like)

It seems "Central Ireland" includes both Connacht and Leinster samples, so the one labeled Connacht might be the coastal area, and Leinster might be closer to the Munster border or on the coast below Dublin. Just my guess.

Also interesting is some South Wales clusters and North Scotland have greater distance to England, than does most of Ireland minus Ulster/South Munster.

I remember hearing stories that after England became Protestant some English Catholics fled to Dublin and the surrounding areas. Maybe there was some truth to those stories.

sktibo
12-19-2017, 12:19 AM
The other thing to remember about the Belgium category is that we know from medieval history that the Flemish were a significant migrant group to Britain in the centuries following the Norman conquest. There are known settlements such as in South Pembrokeshire but there were also other impacts elsewhere in Britain, including Eastern Scotland - https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ishr/Flemish/index.htm

https://moultray.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/flemish-influence-in-scotland/

Looking at IDA results, North Scotland II which is one of the Aberdeenshire clusters is quite high at 16% Belgian but of course the problem with using modern populations is determining how much of that relates to Iron Age or to Medieval Flemish, or to something else. IIRC, high levels of U106 have been noted in NE Scotland, which may be further evidence of a Flemish impact there.

Any idea if the Flemish migrated to the Orkney Islands?

Sikeliot
12-19-2017, 12:23 AM
I remember hearing stories that after England became Protestant some English Catholics fled to Dublin and the surrounding areas. Maybe there was some truth to those stories.

I think it must be. It seems like Leinster as a whole, but especially Dublin as well as everything stretching across through to Connacht has some affinity toward Britain.

Nqp15hhu
12-19-2017, 12:47 AM
I thought the results revealed the highest British percentage within Northern Ireland?

Anglo-Celtic
12-19-2017, 01:04 AM
The southwest Scottish - if you are talking about the Lowland Scots - are genetically distinct from the Native Irish.

They're close to them in more ways than one. The Lowland Scottish people in the western section of Scotland are more "Celtic" than the Lowland Scottish people in the eastern section of Scotland. It's not all about the "Celtic" Highlands and the "Saxon" Lowlands. Just look at where Strathclyde was.

Heber
12-19-2017, 01:32 AM
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Heber
12-19-2017, 01:37 AM
I plan to Livestream the GGI2018 Conference (with the presenters permission) from Belfast

Prof Jim Mallory ... The Origins of the Irish
Ed Gilbert ... The Irish DNA Atlas Project - final results
Martin McDowell ... DNA & the North of Ireland Family History Society
Donna Rutherford ... DNA & Game of Thrones
Debbie Kennett ... Mysteries of the Titanic solved by DNA
Brad Larkin ... DNA, Clans, & Monarchy
Katherine Borges ... DNA testing for beginners
Linda Magellan ... Introduction to DNA Testing
John Cleary ... A Y-DNA Ulster family Case Study
James Irvine ... Y-DNA of a Scots-Irish diaspora
Michelle Leonard ... Using your autosomal DNA results
Maurice Gleeson ... Triangulating on a specific ancestor
Ask the Experts session ... 20 minutes at the end of each day.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2018%20Belfast

kevinduffy
12-19-2017, 02:11 AM
They're close to them in more ways than one. The Lowland Scottish people in the western section of Scotland are more "Celtic" than the Lowland Scottish people in the eastern section of Scotland. It's not all about the "Celtic" Highlands and the "Saxon" Lowlands. Just look at where Strathclyde was.

But the Highland Scots have more Gaelic ancestry than the Lowland Scots.

kevinduffy
12-19-2017, 02:14 AM
The other thing to remember about the Belgium category is that we know from medieval history that the Flemish were a significant migrant group to Britain in the centuries following the Norman conquest. There are known settlements such as in South Pembrokeshire but there were also other impacts elsewhere in Britain, including Eastern Scotland - https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ishr/Flemish/index.htm

https://moultray.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/flemish-influence-in-scotland/

Looking at IDA results, North Scotland II which is one of the Aberdeenshire clusters is quite high at 16% Belgian but of course the problem with using modern populations is determining how much of that relates to Iron Age or to Medieval Flemish, or to something else. IIRC, high levels of U106 have been noted in NE Scotland, which may be further evidence of a Flemish impact there.

The Flemish and U106 are both Germanic.

sktibo
12-19-2017, 02:38 AM
The Flemish and U106 are both Germanic.

While there is definitely a strong argument to U106 being Germanic it is not a cased closed situation - there is an argument to be made for it also having Belgic origins. IIRC a lot of the Anglo Saxon remains we have are actually L1.
While I see the Flemish are a Germanic speaking group, I think we should get some input from our Dutch and Belgian members (or whoever is knowledgeable on these areas) as to what the Flemish might be ethnically speaking...

timberwolf
12-19-2017, 02:53 AM
While there is definitely a strong argument to U106 being Germanic it is not a cased closed situation - there is an argument to be made for it also having Belgic origins. IIRC a lot of the Anglo Saxon remains we have are actually L1.
While I see the Flemish are a Germanic speaking group, I think we should get some input from our Dutch and Belgian members (or whoever is knowledgeable on these areas) as to what the Flemish might be ethnically speaking...

Hi Sktibo

I was not aware the U106 may have Belgic origins.

Can you suggest some reading for me? Cheers

Certainly my branch of the U106 tree seems to have its origins in Scandinavia.

fridurich
12-19-2017, 02:59 AM
I plan to Livestream the GGI2018 Conference from Belfast

Prof Jim Mallory ... The Origins of the Irish
Ed Gilbert ... The Irish DNA Atlas Project - final results
Martin McDowell ... DNA & the North of Ireland Family History Society
Donna Rutherford ... DNA & Game of Thrones
Debbie Kennett ... Mysteries of the Titanic solved by DNA
Brad Larkin ... DNA, Clans, & Monarchy
Katherine Borges ... DNA testing for beginners
Linda Magellan ... Introduction to DNA Testing
John Cleary ... A Y-DNA Ulster family Case Study
James Irvine ... Y-DNA of a Scots-Irish diaspora
Michelle Leonard ... Using your autosomal DNA results
Maurice Gleeson ... Triangulating on a specific ancestor
Ask the Experts session ... 20 minutes at the end of each day.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2018%20Belfast

Thanks so much! It sounds so interesting!!!

sktibo
12-19-2017, 03:01 AM
Hi Sktibo

I was not aware the U106 may have Belgic origins.

Can you suggest some reading for me? Cheers

Certainly my branch of the U106 tree seems to have its origins in Scandinavia.

I think it more likely that it is Germanic, but I don't think it's a complete certainty. Going off memory, some of those ancient samples from the Roman Gladiators are U106 and don't autosomally appear to be Germanic - then on top of that, the Anglo Saxon samples turned out to be L1. I believe this is a theory that Tomenable can tell you more about, I suggest you PM him.
Personally, my belief is that this U106 Haplogroup doesn't fall on a hard Belgic or Germanic line - I think it is most likely that some of the Belgae carried it as well as some of the Germanic peoples. I think it is tempting to want to group things into hard categories such as Germanic or Celtic but I don't think that is the case a lot of the time.

Edit: Dug up the post with Tomenable's theory. I think he makes some very good points: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32226-Y-DNA-from-Germany-in-the-300s-400s-AD-shows-58-frequency-of-I1-and-not-much-R1b

kevinduffy
12-19-2017, 03:28 AM
While there is definitely a strong argument to U106 being Germanic it is not a cased closed situation - there is an argument to be made for it also having Belgic origins. IIRC a lot of the Anglo Saxon remains we have are actually L1.
While I see the Flemish are a Germanic speaking group, I think we should get some input from our Dutch and Belgian members (or whoever is knowledgeable on these areas) as to what the Flemish might be ethnically speaking...

L1? Are you sure you don't mean I1?

sktibo
12-19-2017, 03:59 AM
L1? Are you sure you don't mean I1?

Yes I meant I1, thanks for clarifying that

fridurich
12-19-2017, 04:14 AM
I'm American, and I can find a few shades (not fifty) of gray when I look hard and long enough. ;) It could be that the conventional wisdom of pop culture presents an unrealistic view of all things Irish in that many Americans tend to base their ideas on what they hear/see the most. It's understandable. I fell prey to it, myself, and some agenda-driven anthropology boards made it worse. This forum is head and shoulders above that kind of thing. It's great when our assumptions are shown to be not entirely true. We can just go where the information takes us. For instance, it was good to learn how genetically close the Southwest Scottish were to the Native Irish after I falsely assumed that they were quite distinct ("Celtic" compared to "Anglo").

I too am an American and I have Gaelic Irish, Ulster Scot, Scottish, English, Welsh, and other Western and Northern European descent. I thought I would talk online to someone who actually lives in Northern Ireland (she lives in County Down) and see how segregated Catholics are from Protestants. First of all, she is an autosomal match to my late O'Hair uncle. I share less DNA with her. She has an Ulster Scot surname, but had a Catholic O'Hare great grandmother who married a Protestant. I think she is probably from the same O'Hare line as me and Y DNA testing is being done on her County Down born O'Hare distant cousin.

She said there is segregation mostly in some areas of the cities and in border areas but it has never been that great or indeed that simple. Also, she said people often forget that some of the great Irish speakers and original leaders of Irish nationalism were Protestant. She said the polarization and segregation is relatively recent and didn't occur until the late 19th Century. She mentioned it was in the interests of the state to have the working class divided, so that together they couldn't call for better pay and conditions. She said that today you would still find lots of Catholics who would see themselves as British (she mentions Rory McIlroy, pro golfer) and there are lots of Presbyterians in Antrim and Down who would consider themselves Irish. Also, she said a lot of people in the South (Republic of Ireland) know little of the North and just repeat what they have heard on T.V.

She said she has a Presbyterian dad and a Catholic mother. Additionally, in another online conversation I had with her, she said there had been a lot of mixed marriages in her family. She said her dad spoke Irish fluently, but she knows only a few words. Also she said politicians have a vested interest in stirring up fear because it gets them votes. She said that she guesses people's experiences vary, but there is certainly no segregation in her families.

Her O'Hare cousin from Down, has shown me his family tree online, and talked about his ancestry besides his patrilineal line and he appears to have two or three ancestral surnames that probably are Scottish, Ulster Scot, English, or a combination.

I know this isn't going to be the viewpoint of every person native to Northern Ireland, but since she lives there, she would know how the two sides get along, or mingle, in her neck of the woods.

Kind Regards

Dubhthach
12-19-2017, 09:43 AM
So it seems Ireland's most "isolated" groups are those at its northernmost and southwesternmost extremes, minus descendants of British settlers in the north.

EDIT: South Munster corresponds roughly with County Kerry and adjacent parts of Cork.

In other words the Kingdom of Deas-Mhumhain (literally 'South Munster' -- anglisced as Desmond), which remained outside of Cambro-Norman control due to the massive defeat of the Fitzgearlds at the Battle of Callan in 1261

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Battle_of_Callan_Grave.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/DesmondSepts.png/1024px-DesmondSepts.png



1261.4 A great war was waged, and numerous injuries were committed, by Finghin, son of Domhnall Mac Carthaigh, and his brothers, against Foreigners in this year.

1261.5 A great hosting by the Clann-Gerald into Des-Mumha, to attack Mac Carthaigh; and Mac Carthaigh attacked them, and defeated them, and John son of Thomas, and his son (Maurice son of John), and fifteen knights and eight noble barons along with them, were slain there, besides several young men, and soldiers innumerable. And the Barrach Mór was also killed there. Finghin Mac Carthaigh was subsequently slain by the Foreigners, and the sovereignty of Des-Mumha was assumed after him by his brother, i.e. the Aithchleirech Mac Carthaigh.


It's generally argue that the 'Kingdom of Desmond' thus survived up into the 1590's under Mac Carthaigh (McCarthy) rule.

Note the O'Healy land holding in Muskerry in Cork, remember Danny Healy-Rae the TD (Member of Parliament) and his 100% Irish result in AncestryDNA, he had a genetic community of Cork, which people found very funny given he's the quintessential South Kerry yokel, of course it was just reflecting the deep ancestry of his surname in the region.

avalon
12-19-2017, 09:54 AM
So it seems Ireland's most "isolated" groups are those at its northernmost and southwesternmost extremes, minus descendants of British settlers in the north.

EDIT: South Munster corresponds roughly with County Kerry and adjacent parts of Cork. Connacht cluster is really the northern part of Connacht, whereas Central Ireland goes across Galway.

The other paper that came out at the same time "Insular Celtic population structure" said this about Cork and S Munster:


South Munster (SMN) and Cork (CRK) clusters branch off first in the fineSTRUCTURE tree and show distinct separation from their neighbouring north Munster clusters (NMN), indicating that south Munster’s haplotypic makeup is more distinct from its neighbouring regions and the remaining regions than any other cluster. TVD analysis supports this observation (S1 Table and S3 Table), with the Cork cluster in particular showing strong differentiation from other clusters. This may reflect the persistent isolating effects of the mountain ranges surrounding the south Munster counties of Cork and Kerry, restricting gene flow with the rest of Ireland and preserving older structure.

avalon
12-19-2017, 10:03 AM
Any idea if the Flemish migrated to the Orkney Islands?

I don't think so but then I don't think Iron Age Belgae had influence that far north either.

My guess is that this Belgian component is for the most part quite old, probably earlier than late Iron Age and given low levels in Ireland perhaps related to development of Brythonic in Later Bronze Age or Iron Age.

Medieval Flemish imo likely had a modest input.

sktibo
12-19-2017, 10:45 AM
I don't think so but then I don't think Iron Age Belgae had influence that far north either.

My guess is that this Belgian component is for the most part quite old, probably earlier than late Iron Age and given low levels in Ireland perhaps related to development of Brythonic in Later Bronze Age or Iron Age.

Medieval Flemish imo likely had a modest input.

Ah, so then you do agree with me that it might be representative of something Brythonic? But OTOH, it looks like some Dutch made it very far north, as John O' Groats is apparently named after Dutch people that went to the northern tip of Scotland and Orkney:

"A mound near the John O’Groats House Hotel marks the site where Jan de Groot, a Dutchman, built his famous house in the reign of James IV (1488 – 1513). His seven descendants quarrelled about precedence and Jan de Groot solved this problem by building an octagonal house with eight doors, one for each of his seven sons and himself, and an eight sided table so that no one occupied the head of the table.

Jan de Groot ran a ferry to Orkney and charged 2p a trip. The coin for this denomination became known as the ‘groat’. Jan de Groot is buried in Canisbay churchyard where his tombstone can be seen, now moved to inside the entrance porch for protection against the weather. Over a period of time the name Jan de Groot has subsequently changed to John O’Groats."

http://www.visitjohnogroats.com/information/history-john-ogroats/

That isn't Flemish or Belgian, but maybe some of the Dutch are genetically similar to them? I don't know much about Benelux and Dutch DNA.

Dubhthach
12-19-2017, 10:57 AM
South Munster (SMN) and Cork (CRK) clusters branch off first in the fineSTRUCTURE tree and show distinct separation from their neighbouring north Munster clusters (NMN), indicating that south Munster’s haplotypic makeup is more distinct from its neighbouring regions and the remaining regions than any other cluster. TVD analysis supports this observation (S1 Table and S3 Table), with the Cork cluster in particular showing strong differentiation from other clusters. This may reflect the persistent isolating effects of the mountain ranges surrounding the south Munster counties of Cork and Kerry, restricting gene flow with the rest of Ireland and preserving older structure.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-island_agriculture.gif

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

There were evident societal differences between Munster and the Northern half of Ireland (Leath Cuinn -- the half of Conn eg. lands of Uí Néill and Connachta) in the 7th and 8th century due to the differences in legal tradition. For example this is talked about in 'Cattlelords and Clansmen' by the late Nerys Patterson (who passed away in 2007)

https://www.booktopia.com.au/http_coversbooktopiacomau/600/9780268008000/cattle-lords-and-clansmen.jpg
http://undpress.nd.edu/books/P00044

The cover is of the second edition, parts of first edition can be read on Google books, here is link with search for Munster in it:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=JGIFDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=munster&f=false

Some extracts:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster0.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster1.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster2.png

there's something different going on in Munster in general in the Iron age and into early medieval period.

Dubhthach
12-19-2017, 12:21 PM
Interesting map with regards to Ulster, as you can see 12th/13th century Castle construction restricted to the 'Earldom of Ulster' eg. Down/Antrim which was created out of conquest of the Kingdom of Ulaidh (eg. the Uí Néill ≠ Ulster)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IPaPWGoFwJA/TTyTL2Pds1I/AAAAAAAACRk/BnotsHomObU/s1600/AngloNorman%2BCastles.jpg

Greencastle (or Northburg castle) was part of manor of Northburg and built in 1301 by the de Burghs (Burkes), it was site of the event that caused the 'Burke civil war' in mid 14th century eg. the death of William Liath de Burgh (Liath = grey in irish) through starvation by his cousin William Donn de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster and 4th Baron of Connaught (Donn = 'Brown' in irish). This led to the assassination of William Donn by Richard de Manderville (husband of Gylle de Burgh the daughter of William Liath) at Carrickfergus in 1333.

The end result of this was the splitting of Burkes in Connacht into two warring groups (basically Mayo vs. Galway ;) ) and the gradual destruction of the Earldom of Ulster and the rise of the Clandeboy O'Neill's. 'Greencastle' would come under O'Doherty control as they expanded out of 'Tír Conaill' (Donegal) and took Inis Eoghain (Inishowen -- island of Eoghan) out of orbit of 'Tír Eoghain' (Tyrone)

avalon
12-19-2017, 02:07 PM
Ah, so then you do agree with me that it might be representative of something Brythonic? But OTOH, it looks like some Dutch made it very far north, as John O' Groats is apparently named after Dutch people that went to the northern tip of Scotland and Orkney:

"A mound near the John O’Groats House Hotel marks the site where Jan de Groot, a Dutchman, built his famous house in the reign of James IV (1488 – 1513). His seven descendants quarrelled about precedence and Jan de Groot solved this problem by building an octagonal house with eight doors, one for each of his seven sons and himself, and an eight sided table so that no one occupied the head of the table.

Jan de Groot ran a ferry to Orkney and charged 2p a trip. The coin for this denomination became known as the ‘groat’. Jan de Groot is buried in Canisbay churchyard where his tombstone can be seen, now moved to inside the entrance porch for protection against the weather. Over a period of time the name Jan de Groot has subsequently changed to John O’Groats."

http://www.visitjohnogroats.com/information/history-john-ogroats/

That isn't Flemish or Belgian, but maybe some of the Dutch are genetically similar to them? I don't know much about Benelux and Dutch DNA.

Yes, I agree about an ancient Brythonic connection but I doubt that is all of it. There are likely other factors too, eg medieval Flemish.

Interesting point about the Dutch. One thing that was clearly lacking from POBI/IDA was a modern Dutch/Frisian component that may have been able to shed more light on Germanic migrations. Frisians may have been a very close population to Anglo-Saxons, I know there are linguistic similarities with Old English.

Webb
12-19-2017, 04:22 PM
Well I can only give anecdotal evidence based on the Ireland yDNA Project, but for example I've seen at least a dozen cases where members assumed they were 'Ulster Scots' in origin (due to migration in 18th century, and fact that family were protestant in North America), but who (a) bear Gaelic Irish surname (b) cluster with other men of surname of more recent irish origin (c) have a surname that isn't even from Ulster or also arises independently outside of Ulster

Good example I've seen is men who bear surname McManus and who thought they might be of Fermanagh family (branch of Maguires) but who actually belong to the Connacht family (a branch of the O'Connor's) and are R-A259+ (and thus match with large cluster of Gaelic irish surnames from west of Ireland).

In their particular case their MDKA is known from Georgia in mid 18th century, so general assumption they had was family were 'Scots-Irish'. Now the question arises in these cases is the scenario that (a) distant ancestor converted in Ireland or (b) distant ancestor assimilated into religious mainstream of 18th century North American colonies

My money is on (b) for lot of these cases.

Paul, what is your take on DF27 in Ireland? There are a few clusters of it, DF17 as an example, found among persons who appear to have Gaelic surnames?

MitchellSince1893
12-19-2017, 04:37 PM
Just a reminder of what our oldest DF27 sample, I0806 looks like compared to present day populations using Eurogenes K36 (scroll down to 2nd map)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11570-Analysis-of-the-Iberian-R1b-DF27-haplogroup&p=270436&viewfull=1#post270436

Or put another way, present day Ireland and Brittany look closest to I0806 on Eurogenes K36

I noted before that DF27 in England is more concentrated in SW England along the English Channel than elsewhere.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.jpg
Maybe some DF27 went from Central Europe (near I0806's location) to Brittany and then on to Southwest England and then to Ireland.

Dubhthach
12-19-2017, 04:53 PM
Paul, what is your take on DF27 in Ireland? There are a few clusters of it, DF17 as an example, found among persons who appear to have Gaelic surnames?

Well I imagine that like way we have a mix of L21 (eg. we have men with obvious post-1169 surnames that are L21+) it's probably the same case with DF27. I will admit I'm not familiar with DF17 and it's current status but when I filter in the Ireland project for men who have a DF17+ result I see a mix for example:

Joyce -- Welsh origin surname in an Irish context


SEÓIGH—VIII or XII—Sheoye, Shoye, Joie, Joye, Joy, Joyce; 'son of Joy' (probably a Norman personal name—Joie, Joye—corresponding to the Latin Letitia; but possibly merely a descriptive epithet bestowed on one of a joyous disposition). As a surname, it is of record in Ireland since the end of the 12th century, when the family seems to have come hither from Wales, and by the 16th century had become very widespread. The Joyces of Galway, according to Hardiman (History of Galway, pp. 14-15), came from Wales in the reign of Edward I. They acquired considerable tracts of territory in the mountainous district of Iar-Connacht, called from them Duthaigh Seoghach, or the Joyce Country, now forming the barony of Ross, in Co. Galway, where they are still very numerous. They were, according to Hardiman, a race of men remarkable for their extraordinary stature. The surname is now almost everywhere anglicised Joyce. Joy, the correct rendering, is almost peculiar to Kerry. Compare with Seóghas above.

SEOGHAS—VIII—Sheos, Josse, Joce, Joyce; 'son of Joce,' or 'Josse' (a Breton personal name). This surname, which appears to be distinct from Seóigh (which see), was peculiar to Kilkenny and Cork. In Ireland, it dates back at least to the 13th century.

Durkin:


Mac DHUARCÁIN—IV—MacGurgan, Gurkin, Durcan, Durkan, Durkin, Zorkin; 'son of Duarcán'; the name of a well-known North Connacht family who were anciently lords of Cuil Neiridh, in Co. Sligo, and are probably a branch of the O'Haras. This surname is sometimes pronounced Ó Cuarcáin in the spoken language of Mayo.

Mulvihill:


Ó MAOILMHICHIL, Ó MAOILMHICHÍL—I—O Mulmichell, O Mulvihill, O Mulveill, Mulvihill, Melville, Mitchell, Michael, &c.; 'descendant of Maolmhichil' (servant of St. Michael); the name of a family of Síol Muireadhaigh, or Sil-Murray, in Co. Roscommon, who derive their descent from Maolmhichil, chief of Síol Muireadhaigh, who fought at the battle of Cill Ua nDaighre, near Dublin, in 866. They were at one time chiefs of Corca Sheachlainn, a district in the east of Co. Roscommon, but appear to have lost their rank at an early period. The name was, however, common in that county at the end of the 16th century, and branches of the family had about the same time settled in Tipperary, Limerick, Cork and Kerry, where they still flourish.

What's interesting is that if the Mulvhill family were indeed members of Síol Muireadhaigh (of Uí Briúin Aí of the Connachta) ye'd expect a M222+ and probably A259+ result. So there might be more than one family there. Of course given that Durkin is also a North Connacht surname it's interesting seeing DF17+ show up in it as well.

It's interesting actually seeing the spilt between those names and Joyce here:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=624&star=false

That's fairly old branching point.

Webb
12-19-2017, 06:48 PM
Well I imagine that like way we have a mix of L21 (eg. we have men with obvious post-1169 surnames that are L21+) it's probably the same case with DF27. I will admit I'm not familiar with DF17 and it's current status but when I filter in the Ireland project for men who have a DF17+ result I see a mix for example:

Joyce -- Welsh origin surname in an Irish context




Durkin:



Mulvihill:



What's interesting is that if the Mulvhill family were indeed members of Síol Muireadhaigh (of Uí Briúin Aí of the Connachta) ye'd expect a M222+ and probably A259+ result. So there might be more than one family there. Of course given that Durkin is also a North Connacht surname it's interesting seeing DF17+ show up in it as well.

It's interesting actually seeing the spilt between those names and Joyce here:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=624&star=false

That's fairly old branching point.

Thank you Paul. There is also a Meehan and a Connell in this cluster on Ytree. I am assuming that neither have joined the Ireland DNA Project, though.

alan
12-19-2017, 08:23 PM
What do you mean by helpful? Should I pretend that British invaders did not use violence against my ancestors to steal their land?

No but the idea that therec is a pure native ground and a pure invaders group is largely untrue. We all have 16 GG grandparents, 32 GGG grandparents etc and even with the limitations of Irish paper genealogical sources most people will be able to find out who they were. If you do that you probably find your ancestry is not a simple native vs planter thing. Most people will find they are a mix of ‘poacher and gamekeeper’ just as black people frequenoy find their ancestors were both slave and slave owner/

TigerMW
12-19-2017, 09:11 PM
I don’t think the term native is entirely helpful. The Irish population has clearly been frequently added to and at least twice radically altered in the 10000 years of human population history in Ireland. Is an Irish person whose ancestor arrived I200 or 1300 much more native than a planter who arovrf 300 years later? Only insignificantly so given the island has been settled for 10000 years. The term native is arbitrary

What do you mean by helpful? Should I pretend that British invaders did not use violence against my ancestors to steal their land?

No but the idea that therec is a pure native ground and a pure invaders group is largely untrue. We all have 16 GG grandparents, 32 GGG grandparents etc and even with the limitations of Irish paper genealogical sources most people will be able to find out who they were. If you do that you probably find your ancestry is not a simple native vs planter thing. Most people will find they are a mix of ‘poacher and gamekeeper’ just as black people frequenoy find their ancestors were both slave and slave owner/
I agree with Alan. From ancient perspective the L21 based Bell Beakers basically replaced the "native" farmers, who replaced the "native" hunter-gatherers for the most part.

At some point my ancestors on Ireland who mixed with other Isles folks became a "native" type of Old Irish speakers. They did not necessarily care for my Cambro-Norman invaders and the new mix didn't care much for Oliver Cromwell.

"The Lament of John MacWalter Walsh" by J.C. Walsh
This poem's refrain is

"The Walshs of the Mountain shall be wide dispersed and their power dissolved away."

but the body of the poem includes,

"No word I should have to wail my dear relations; the nobles of Erin are wide dispersed around, the Chiefs of generous soul have forsaken us since the cruel visitation of Cromwell."

Of course plague was a bad thing too. Those folks were Roman Cathololic but my Ulster Ireland line were Presbyterians from Scotland. They didn't particularly like the English.

What is one to do? Should the right hand slap the left? I have Judd and Brown lineages that look as Old English as you can get.

razyn
12-19-2017, 09:50 PM
I will admit I'm not familiar with DF17 and it's current status but when I filter in the Ireland project for men who have a DF17+ result I see a mix for example:

Joyce -- Welsh origin surname in an Irish context




Durkin:



Mulvihill:




I'm slightly acquainted with Mike Durkin, having actually met him at a conference (which I can only say for about five people from the DF27 project). And I think he has posted here, but maybe not. Anyway I zapped him an email link to this.

alan
12-19-2017, 10:14 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-island_agriculture.gif

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

There were evident societal differences between Munster and the Northern half of Ireland (Leath Cuinn -- the half of Conn eg. lands of Uí Néill and Connachta) in the 7th and 8th century due to the differences in legal tradition. For example this is talked about in 'Cattlelords and Clansmen' by the late Nerys Patterson (who passed away in 2007)

https://www.booktopia.com.au/http_coversbooktopiacomau/600/9780268008000/cattle-lords-and-clansmen.jpg
http://undpress.nd.edu/books/P00044

The cover is of the second edition, parts of first edition can be read on Google books, here is link with search for Munster in it:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=JGIFDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=munster&f=false

Some extracts:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster0.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster1.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster2.png

there's something different going on in Munster in general in the Iron age and into early medieval period.

That is a fantastic book for people who want a deeper understanding of the social system of early Medieval Ireland. That and another book called Early Irish and Welsh Kinship by Charles-Edwards really deepen the understanding of how it worked

sktibo
12-19-2017, 10:45 PM
@Timberwolf

I found the post by Tomenable explaining the U106 theory I edited post #1060 with the link

ADW_1981
12-19-2017, 10:54 PM
DF17+ might be a late arrival to Ireland such as La Tene. It actually has a similar distribution to the brother Z220 (with the exception of Ireland where the latter is rare). I've considered a culturally "Celtic" connection as of late to Z220, and perhaps by extentsion DF17+ based on where it turns up. The weak Y distribution may represent a minor migration as the archaeologists previously suggested.

alan
12-19-2017, 11:31 PM
I too am an American and I have Gaelic Irish, Ulster Scot, Scottish, English, Welsh, and other Western and Northern European descent. I thought I would talk online to someone who actually lives in Northern Ireland (she lives in County Down) and see how segregated Catholics are from Protestants. First of all, she is an autosomal match to my late O'Hair uncle. I share less DNA with her. She has an Ulster Scot surname, but had a Catholic O'Hare great grandmother who married a Protestant. I think she is probably from the same O'Hare line as me and Y DNA testing is being done on her County Down born O'Hare distant cousin.

She said there is segregation mostly in some areas of the cities and in border areas but it has never been that great or indeed that simple. Also, she said people often forget that some of the great Irish speakers and original leaders of Irish nationalism were Protestant. She said the polarization and segregation is relatively recent and didn't occur until the late 19th Century. She mentioned it was in the interests of the state to have the working class divided, so that together they couldn't call for better pay and conditions. She said that today you would still find lots of Catholics who would see themselves as British (she mentions Rory McIlroy, pro golfer) and there are lots of Presbyterians in Antrim and Down who would consider themselves Irish. Also, she said a lot of people in the South (Republic of Ireland) know little of the North and just repeat what they have heard on T.V.

She said she has a Presbyterian dad and a Catholic mother. Additionally, in another online conversation I had with her, she said there had been a lot of mixed marriages in her family. She said her dad spoke Irish fluently, but she knows only a few words. Also she said politicians have a vested interest in stirring up fear because it gets them votes. She said that she guesses people's experiences vary, but there is certainly no segregation in her families.

Her O'Hare cousin from Down, has shown me his family tree online, and talked about his ancestry besides his patrilineal line and he appears to have two or three ancestral surnames that probably are Scottish, Ulster Scot, English, or a combination.

I know this isn't going to be the viewpoint of every person native to Northern Ireland, but since she lives there, she would know how the two sides get along, or mingle, in her neck of the woods.

Kind Regards

what she says is 100% accurate. The people who are vehemently on one or other side of the divide spin exaggerated stuff to suit their self image as pure Irish or pure planter. But if you talk family trees (or even just note their surnames) to less bitterly tribal northern Irish people it's obvious there have been phases of much marrying across the divide in areas where they live in proximity. The modern extreme segregation of working class housing into Catholic and Protestant areas in places like Belfast only happened around the start of the 1970s. They had lived in non segregated fashion together for 100 years prior to that. Both sides have significant nos of people with the 'wrong,' type of surname for their religion but this appears to be especially true for catholics, a really quite substantial no of whom carry planter surnames. I believe this largely is due to Protestant men marrying Catholic women and the children being brought up Catholic. The religion of the mother's still tends to win out today in mixed marriages. Almost all the local catholics I know who know their family tree seem to have at least 1 protestant in their trees in the last 4 generations. I think the social phenomenon was Catholic women marrying protestants who tended to be better off but then often bringing the kids up Catholic - hence catholics with Protestant surnames. I think it was a lot rarer for Protestant women to marry Catholic men as that usually meant downwards mobility. It's also a well know fact in Ireland and Britain that Catholicism usually wins out in mixed marriages. I think that explains why there seems to be a lot more catholics with Protestant type surnames than vice versa. That said there is still a significant number of n Irish protestants with Irish surnames especially in Belfast. I think there was likely a phase of post-famine but pre-troubles intermixing c1870-1970 before the sharp segregation of working class housing areas by region.

alan
12-20-2017, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=Nqp15hhu;324312]That's true but most Protestants have Ulster Scots ancestry. You're attempts to delegitimatize Protestant attachments to Great Britain are failing badly.[/Of course northern protestants have a lot of Scottish ancestry ! Where did I say they didn't?

Nqp15hhu
12-20-2017, 12:51 AM
With regards to the AncestryDna test and historical (plantation) period ancestry, how far back does this go? From my results it would be easy to assume that I have no GB ancestry as this is what it says.

But I know that my Great Grandmother's branch is from England (Plantation). Going back along that name most names are Scottish, aside from a few English names.

Would this English line mix out entirely over this time period of 400 years of marriage? I am intrigued about this and still find it amazing that AncestryDna says that I have no GB ancestry.

The only thing I can think of is that the European West is the English? Although that doesn't show in MyHeritage.

kevinduffy
12-20-2017, 01:05 AM
No but the idea that therec is a pure native ground and a pure invaders group is largely untrue. We all have 16 GG grandparents, 32 GGG grandparents etc and even with the limitations of Irish paper genealogical sources most people will be able to find out who they were. If you do that you probably find your ancestry is not a simple native vs planter thing. Most people will find they are a mix of ‘poacher and gamekeeper’ just as black people frequenoy find their ancestors were both slave and slave owner/

I never said anything about purity. What I said is that there are genetic differences between the two groups. The Catholics/Nationalists/Republicans are predominantly of native Irish ancestry while the Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists are predominantly of British colonial ancestry.

Nqp15hhu
12-20-2017, 01:05 AM
It depends where they live in Northern Ireland. Places like Tyrone and Fermanagh would be mostly Native Irish, elsewhere not so.

bobjoe 699
12-20-2017, 01:32 AM
Gerry Adams gran-father lowland Scot i rest my case ;)

Anglo-Celtic
12-20-2017, 01:49 AM
But the Highland Scots have more Gaelic ancestry than the Lowland Scots.

That's the general trend, but a lot of Southwestern Lowlanders are descended from Gaels. You can tell that by their surnames, for starters.

kevinduffy
12-20-2017, 01:55 AM
Gerry Adams gran-father lowland Scot i rest my case ;)

What is your source for this claim?

kevinduffy
12-20-2017, 01:58 AM
With regards to the AncestryDna test and historical (plantation) period ancestry, how far back does this go? From my results it would be easy to assume that I have no GB ancestry as this is what it says.

But I know that my Great Grandmother's branch is from England (Plantation). Going back along that name most names are Scottish, aside from a few English names.

Would this English line mix out entirely over this time period of 400 years of marriage? I am intrigued about this and still find it amazing that AncestryDna says that I have no GB ancestry.

The only thing I can think of is that the European West is the English? Although that doesn't show in MyHeritage.

From what I understand, European West is Germanic which should include Anglo-Saxons.

Anglo-Celtic
12-20-2017, 02:04 AM
I too am an American and I have Gaelic Irish, Ulster Scot, Scottish, English, Welsh, and other Western and Northern European descent. I thought I would talk online to someone who actually lives in Northern Ireland (she lives in County Down) and see how segregated Catholics are from Protestants. First of all, she is an autosomal match to my late O'Hair uncle. I share less DNA with her. She has an Ulster Scot surname, but had a Catholic O'Hare great grandmother who married a Protestant. I think she is probably from the same O'Hare line as me and Y DNA testing is being done on her County Down born O'Hare distant cousin.

She said there is segregation mostly in some areas of the cities and in border areas but it has never been that great or indeed that simple. Also, she said people often forget that some of the great Irish speakers and original leaders of Irish nationalism were Protestant. She said the polarization and segregation is relatively recent and didn't occur until the late 19th Century. She mentioned it was in the interests of the state to have the working class divided, so that together they couldn't call for better pay and conditions. She said that today you would still find lots of Catholics who would see themselves as British (she mentions Rory McIlroy, pro golfer) and there are lots of Presbyterians in Antrim and Down who would consider themselves Irish. Also, she said a lot of people in the South (Republic of Ireland) know little of the North and just repeat what they have heard on T.V.

She said she has a Presbyterian dad and a Catholic mother. Additionally, in another online conversation I had with her, she said there had been a lot of mixed marriages in her family. She said her dad spoke Irish fluently, but she knows only a few words. Also she said politicians have a vested interest in stirring up fear because it gets them votes. She said that she guesses people's experiences vary, but there is certainly no segregation in her families.

Her O'Hare cousin from Down, has shown me his family tree online, and talked about his ancestry besides his patrilineal line and he appears to have two or three ancestral surnames that probably are Scottish, Ulster Scot, English, or a combination.

I know this isn't going to be the viewpoint of every person native to Northern Ireland, but since she lives there, she would know how the two sides get along, or mingle, in her neck of the woods.

Kind Regards

Thanks for the great reply. I'm a mix like you. You well know and understand that we can't make assumptions when we look at genealogy. We can use some things as templates. We can look at certain rules. There are a lot of exceptions to those rules. This is the case with British and Irish roots. You have to go where your ancestors take you.

You bring up an extremely important point. Catholics and Protestants worked together, in Ireland, in the past. Just look at the United Irishmen. It likely was the best shot at independence. Both "fenians" and "huns" hung together. You see that same kind of thing with contemporary extremist groups. I'll leave that there. There's no need to bring up Gerry Adams (although I just did).

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but people are sick and tired of the Troubles. They want to get on with their lives in 2017. Let the past be the past. Live in the present. You'll likely find more mixed marriages as time goes by. Politics and religion aren't the barriers that they once were. There will be hardliners stuck in the past. Their numbers are shrinking, though.

Anglo-Celtic
12-20-2017, 02:08 AM
Gerry Adams gran-father lowland Scot i rest my case ;)

Come on now! "Adams" is as Irish as Patrick Murphy's Guinness-drinking goat.

Garimund
12-20-2017, 02:11 AM
That's the general trend, but a lot of Southwestern Lowlanders are descended from Gaels. You can tell that by their surnames, for starters.

I've been under the impression Southwestern Lowland Scots are descended from Britons. This fell into the Kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde, and Hen Ogledd where Cumbric was spoken. I'm not sure of how much Gaelic admixture they may have received over the years.

Anglo-Celtic
12-20-2017, 02:19 AM
I've been under the impression Southwestern Lowland Scots are descended from Britons. This fell into the Kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde, and Hen Ogledd where Cumbric was spoken. I'm not sure of how much Gaelic admixture they may have received over the years.

More of them likely descend from Britons, but some of them do descend from Gaels, as well as other groups. It's hard to believe that Gaelic descent was confined to Dalriada.

kevinduffy
12-20-2017, 02:37 AM
Come on now! "Adams" is as Irish as Patrick Murphy's Guinness-drinking goat.

This is hardly evidence of Scottish Lowlands ancestry.

sktibo
12-20-2017, 02:46 AM
I've been under the impression Southwestern Lowland Scots are descended from Britons. This fell into the Kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde, and Hen Ogledd where Cumbric was spoken. I'm not sure of how much Gaelic admixture they may have received over the years.

POBI claimed that SW Scotland had a strong genetic relationship to the Gaels when Ireland was still included:

20507

45% Ireland is the second highest, next to NW Scotland of course.

Keep in mind that there is a good amount of evidence that South-West Scotland had Gaelic connections long before Dal-Riata - FRA17, which peaks in North Wales at 55% here looks to be the defining Brythonic percentage, and SW Scotland doesn't have an outstanding amount of that.

alan
12-20-2017, 09:12 AM
One of George Best’s grannies maiden name and was very native Irish - Flanagan or something

alan
12-20-2017, 09:29 AM
The Scots Protestants who planted NI I think came from 2 stocks. Those around Galloway coast had a large Gaelic element in their DNA as well as British substrate and small Viking and Norman adstrate. Those from the borders inland areas had little Gaelic or Norse and were largely December from Britons and Angles with a Norman adstrate. The English element was largely from the border, Lancashire, Cheshire and Devon so mostly Anglo-Saxons with a large Briton substrate

Dubhthach
12-20-2017, 10:23 AM
Come on now! "Adams" is as Irish as Patrick Murphy's Guinness-drinking goat.

It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Adams.png

It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:

To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils, and to assert the independence of my country, these were my objects.

To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman, in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter, these were my means.

Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.

Let no man write my epitaph; for as no man who knows my motives dare now vindicate them, let not prejudice or ignorance, asperse them. Let them and me rest in obscurity and peace, and my tomb remain uninscribed, and my memory in oblivion, until other times and other men can do justice to my character. When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth, then and not till then, let my epitaph be written. I have done.

Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.

The Defenders of this Realm have worked well in secret and in the open. They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but the fools, the fools, the fools! — they have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace

So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Dubhthach
12-20-2017, 10:34 AM
That is a fantastic book for people who want a deeper understanding of the social system of early Medieval Ireland. That and another book called Early Irish and Welsh Kinship by Charles-Edwards really deepen the understanding of how it worked

TM Charles-Edwards 'Early Christian Ireland' (Cambridge University press) is my go to book for a lot of this period. Of course it's funny that in the one bookshop that I regularly see it they have it surrounded by other books about early Christian church in Ireland, in reality the book covers probably more secular topics than religious, though obviously taking into account that religion and secular authority were heavy intermixed in early medieval period.

Large sections of it can be read on google books for those interested:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=early+christian+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih6sm4sZjYAhWHIcAKHZRqDVUQ6AEIKTAA#v=on epage&q=early%20christian%20ireland&f=false

Chapter on the origins of the Uí Néill for example is quite a good example in forensic analysis of the available written records

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_01.jpeg

Link to that chapter in google books here:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&lpg=PP1&dq=early%20christian%20ireland&pg=PA441#v=onepage&q&f=false

Jessie
12-20-2017, 11:14 AM
This article claims that Gerry Adams and also Bobby Sands descend from Planter families.

Bobby was descended from an English family which migrated to the Lowlands of Scotland in the early 1400’s before relocating to the northern Irish province of Ulster in the 1600’s. Gerry descends from some of the MacAdams of Galloway, a sept of the notorious Clan Gregor, who likewise crossed west over the Irish Sea to Ulster during the Plantations. According to Gerry’s bio he is related to the political Adams family of the early United States which produced the country’s second and sixth presidents, as are the Adams from whom I am descended that were among the first settlers of the original Warren County in Tennessee.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2013/6/10/252998/Origin-of-the-Term-Scotch-Irish.aspx

kevinduffy
12-24-2017, 04:31 AM
So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Not long enough since the vast majority of people with British ancestry in Ireland support British colonial rule.

fridurich
12-24-2017, 04:56 AM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Adams.png

It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Very interesting! Also, I didn't realize Patrick Pearse's father was born in England, and I read where Patrick's mother was an Irish Brady.

Kind Regards

fridurich
12-24-2017, 04:57 AM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Adams.png

It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Very interesting! Also, I didn't realize Patrick Pearse's father was born in England, and I read where Patrick's mother was an Irish Brady.

Kind Regards

Anglo-Celtic
12-24-2017, 05:37 AM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.



It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Thanks for posting that. It just goes to show that there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to this subject. I read that some of the most notorious people, on the other side of the divide, had Native Irish (for want of a better term) roots. "Adams" is a tough nut to crack because it's found in so many regions, even parts of Wales (before the modern era).

Anglo-Celtic
12-24-2017, 05:38 AM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.



It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Thanks for posting that. It just goes to show that there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to this subject. I read that some of the most notorious people, on the other side of the divide, had Native Irish (for want of a better term) roots. "Adams" is a tough nut to crack because it's found in so many regions, even parts of Wales (before the modern era).

fridurich
12-24-2017, 06:39 AM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Adams.png

It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Very interesting! Also, I didn't realize Patrick Pearse's father was born in England, and I read where Patrick's mother was an Irish Brady.

Kind Regards

fridurich
12-24-2017, 01:48 PM
It's an interesting question the name does seem to have a number of derivations in Ireland, at least two of which are Gaelic Irish in origin.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Adams.png

It also seems to represent at least one branch of the Cambro-Norman Barry family in Cork, now if we could only get the bould Gerry to do a Y-DNA test (good luck there!)

Of course leaving that aside 'Tone' is a surname of 16th century english origin and let the father of Irish republicanism was a bearer of the name:


Likewise Emmet is a surname of 17th century english provenance in Ireland.


Of course even more blatant with an english connection is Pearse, whose father (James Pearse) was actually English and born in London.


So if Adams is of ultimately British origin on his Y-lineage well he joins a long list of Irish republicans in that case. ;)

Very interesting! I didn't realize that Patrick Pearse's father was born in England. I read where Patrick Pearse's mother was an Irish Brady.

Kind Regards

Heber
01-04-2018, 07:20 PM
Ordered. This book has lots of maps and documents which should shed light on this period.

Atlas of the Irish Revolution

Written by the leading historians, geographers and literary scholars of the Irish revolutionary period, this work, with its authoritative texts, superb photographs, informative maps and its reproduction of key documents, promises to be the outstanding publication of the ‘decade of commemorations.

299 x 237mm, 984pp, 364 maps and 707 illustrations, 104 contributors, 5kg.

https://youtu.be/Isr1fplU0dk

http://atlasirishrevolution.ie/

CillKenny
01-05-2018, 11:00 PM
Has any historian of note commented on the interpretation of the results? I am a little disappointed that the paper seems not have captured the imagination of the Irish public.

Dubhthach
01-06-2018, 02:25 PM
Has any historian of note commented on the interpretation of the results? I am a little disappointed that the paper seems not have captured the imagination of the Irish public.

There has been much in way of reports on it that's for sure, there was on article in the Irish Times I saw. Also I didn't see any media reports on the other study that had Bradley in it. As for historians, the only two I know who have published or commented on any DNA work and Irish history are Dr. Catherine Swift of UL, who published a paper in collection essays number of years ago, as well as talked at various DNA events, and Dr. Bart Jaski (keeper of manuscripts University of Utrecht) who also published a essay in same collection as Dr. Swift.

I think what we really need is some papers on early medieval genomes, any such paper ye'd imagine would have to be multidiscplinary eg. it would include input from archaelogists and historians. My feeling is the more humanities originated professionals are at the moment just going 'here go the geneticists with their mad-capped theories'

kevinduffy
01-06-2018, 05:50 PM
There has been much in way of reports on it that's for sure, there was on article in the Irish Times I saw. Also I didn't see any media reports on the other study that had Bradley in it. As for historians, the only two I know who have published or commented on any DNA work and Irish history are Dr. Catherine Swift of UL, who published a paper in collection essays number of years ago, as well as talked at various DNA events, and Dr. Bart Jaski (keeper of manuscripts University of Utrecht) who also published a essay in same collection as Dr. Swift.

I think what we really need is some papers on early medieval genomes, any such paper ye'd imagine would have to be multidiscplinary eg. it would include input from archaelogists and historians. My feeling is the more humanities originated professionals are at the moment just going 'here go the geneticists with their mad-capped theories'

Archaeologists and historians do seem to be somewhat close-minded when it comes to genetics. Kind of reminds me of that part of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where the philosophers are worried that the new supercomputer Deep Thought will put them out of work by solving all the questions that they spend their lives pondering.

fridurich
01-06-2018, 06:32 PM
POBI claimed that SW Scotland had a strong genetic relationship to the Gaels when Ireland was still included:

20507

45% Ireland is the second highest, next to NW Scotland of course.

Keep in mind that there is a good amount of evidence that South-West Scotland had Gaelic connections long before Dal-Riata - FRA17, which peaks in North Wales at 55% here looks to be the defining Brythonic percentage, and SW Scotland doesn't have an outstanding amount of that.

Thanks for the interesting info and graphic. So it is for sure it was the POBI that used to show the percentage of Irish DNA in the different populations of the British Isles? I thought it was the Irish DNA Atlas that originally showed percentages of Irish DNA in different regions of Great Britain. I searched in this long thread looking for a graphic, I had seen before, where it showed a large percentage of Irish autosomal DNA for the Galloway area in Southwest Scotland (as well as showing amount of Irish autosomal DNA in the other British regions).

Regardless of which source originally showed the Irish percentages, I think that Galloway and Ayrshire have a high proportion of Irish or Irish like autosomal DNA. This is interesting also because a large portion of the Planters to Ulster came from these and nearby regions. Galloway and nearby, certainly did have a lot of Gaelic and Norse-Gaelic connections. A topographical map reveals many Gaelic place names.

In about 1563-1566, an English military investigator said that the people of Carrick (in Ayrshire, Scotland which is right by Galloway) for the most part speak Erishe. The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway. This is very close to the time of the unofficial plantings of Counties Antrim and Down of about 1606 and the official Ulster Plantation of 1609. So it appears very likely that some of the Planters from Galloway/Ayrshire could converse with the native Irish. Later in the 17th Century, Gaelic speaking Protestant Scottish Highlanders who immigrated to Ulster should have been able to communicate with the Gaelic Irish also.

I have heard that LivingDNA is going to do an autosomal DNA study of all of Scotland. I believe it will show many/most of the Highlands/Western Isles clusters will cluster close to many/most of the Gaelic Irish clusters and that many/most of the Galloway area clusters will cluster to many/most of the Gaelic Irish and Planter Clusters.

Kind Regards

sktibo
01-06-2018, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the interesting info and graphic. So it is for sure it was the POBI that used to show the percentage of Irish DNA in the different populations of the British Isles? I thought it was the Irish DNA Atlas that originally showed percentages of Irish DNA in different regions of Great Britain. I searched in this long thread looking for a graphic, I had seen before, where it showed a large percentage of Irish autosomal DNA for the Galloway area in Southwest Scotland (as well as showing amount of Irish autosomal DNA in the other British regions).

Regardless of which source originally showed the Irish percentages, I think that Galloway and Ayrshire have a high proportion of Irish or Irish like autosomal DNA. This is interesting also because a large portion of the Planters to Ulster came from these and nearby regions. Galloway and nearby, certainly did have a lot of Gaelic and Norse-Gaelic connections. A topographical map reveals many Gaelic place names.

In about 1563-1566, an English military investigator said that the people of Carrick (in Ayrshire, Scotland which is right by Galloway) for the most part speak Erishe. The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway. This is very close to the time of the unofficial plantings of Counties Antrim and Down of about 1606 and the official Ulster Plantation of 1609. So it appears very likely that some of the Planters from Galloway/Ayrshire could converse with the native Irish. Later in the 17th Century, Gaelic speaking Protestant Scottish Highlanders who immigrated to Ulster should have been able to communicate with the Gaelic Irish also.

I have heard that LivingDNA is going to do an autosomal DNA study of all of Scotland. I believe it will show many/most of the Highlands/Western Isles clusters will cluster close to many/most of the Gaelic Irish clusters and that many/most of the Galloway area clusters will cluster to many/most of the Gaelic Irish and Planter Clusters.

Kind Regards

Originally the POBI included Ireland as well as continental percentages, but they wanted to see how the British populations looked entirely sourced from the Continent, as Ireland and Britain have a lot of ancient DNA in common.
Dubhthach has more info on this I believe - I am not sure where exactly the Irish portion of DNA came from in the early POBI data.

Moderator
01-06-2018, 08:25 PM
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Saetro
01-06-2018, 10:28 PM
Regardless of which source originally showed the Irish percentages, I think that Galloway and Ayrshire have a high proportion of Irish or Irish like autosomal DNA. This is interesting also because a large portion of the Planters to Ulster came from these and nearby regions. Galloway and nearby, certainly did have a lot of Gaelic and Norse-Gaelic connections. A topographical map reveals many Gaelic place names.

In about 1563-1566, an English military investigator said that the people of Carrick (in Ayrshire, Scotland which is right by Galloway) for the most part speak Erishe. The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway. This is very close to the time of the unofficial plantings of Counties Antrim and Down of about 1606 and the official Ulster Plantation of 1609. So it appears very likely that some of the Planters from Galloway/Ayrshire could converse with the native Irish. Later in the 17th Century, Gaelic speaking Protestant Scottish Highlanders who immigrated to Ulster should have been able to communicate with the Gaelic Irish also.
Kind Regards

After the early Plantations came counter action by native Irish.
Those who spoke Gaelic were largely spared.
So yes, there were people in the Plantations who could communicate.

kevinduffy
01-06-2018, 10:32 PM
After the early Plantations came counter action by native Irish.
Those who spoke Gaelic were largely spared.
So yes, there were people in the Plantations who could communicate.

Your source for this information?

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 03:40 AM
Thanks for the interesting info and graphic. So it is for sure it was the POBI that used to show the percentage of Irish DNA in the different populations of the British Isles? I thought it was the Irish DNA Atlas that originally showed percentages of Irish DNA in different regions of Great Britain. I searched in this long thread looking for a graphic, I had seen before, where it showed a large percentage of Irish autosomal DNA for the Galloway area in Southwest Scotland (as well as showing amount of Irish autosomal DNA in the other British regions).

Regardless of which source originally showed the Irish percentages, I think that Galloway and Ayrshire have a high proportion of Irish or Irish like autosomal DNA. This is interesting also because a large portion of the Planters to Ulster came from these and nearby regions. Galloway and nearby, certainly did have a lot of Gaelic and Norse-Gaelic connections. A topographical map reveals many Gaelic place names.

In about 1563-1566, an English military investigator said that the people of Carrick (in Ayrshire, Scotland which is right by Galloway) for the most part speak Erishe. The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway. This is very close to the time of the unofficial plantings of Counties Antrim and Down of about 1606 and the official Ulster Plantation of 1609. So it appears very likely that some of the Planters from Galloway/Ayrshire could converse with the native Irish. Later in the 17th Century, Gaelic speaking Protestant Scottish Highlanders who immigrated to Ulster should have been able to communicate with the Gaelic Irish also.

I have heard that LivingDNA is going to do an autosomal DNA study of all of Scotland. I believe it will show many/most of the Highlands/Western Isles clusters will cluster close to many/most of the Gaelic Irish clusters and that many/most of the Galloway area clusters will cluster to many/most of the Gaelic Irish and Planter Clusters.

Kind Regards

Depending on how close the modern inhabitants are to the ones at that time.

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 03:50 AM
what she says is 100% accurate. The people who are vehemently on one or other side of the divide spin exaggerated stuff to suit their self image as pure Irish or pure planter. But if you talk family trees (or even just note their surnames) to less bitterly tribal northern Irish people it's obvious there have been phases of much marrying across the divide in areas where they live in proximity. The modern extreme segregation of working class housing into Catholic and Protestant areas in places like Belfast only happened around the start of the 1970s. They had lived in non segregated fashion together for 100 years prior to that. Both sides have significant nos of people with the 'wrong,' type of surname for their religion but this appears to be especially true for catholics, a really quite substantial no of whom carry planter surnames. I believe this largely is due to Protestant men marrying Catholic women and the children being brought up Catholic. The religion of the mother's still tends to win out today in mixed marriages. Almost all the local catholics I know who know their family tree seem to have at least 1 protestant in their trees in the last 4 generations. I think the social phenomenon was Catholic women marrying protestants who tended to be better off but then often bringing the kids up Catholic - hence catholics with Protestant surnames. I think it was a lot rarer for Protestant women to marry Catholic men as that usually meant downwards mobility. It's also a well know fact in Ireland and Britain that Catholicism usually wins out in mixed marriages. I think that explains why there seems to be a lot more catholics with Protestant type surnames than vice versa. That said there is still a significant number of n Irish protestants with Irish surnames especially in Belfast. I think there was likely a phase of post-famine but pre-troubles intermixing c1870-1970 before the sharp segregation of working class housing areas by region.

Interestingly that's what I thought but looking up the few specific ones that were mentioned were by far Catholic husbands. I thought it odd at the time

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 03:53 AM
Just a reminder of what our oldest DF27 sample, I0806 looks like compared to present day populations using Eurogenes K36 (scroll down to 2nd map)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11570-Analysis-of-the-Iberian-R1b-DF27-haplogroup&p=270436&viewfull=1#post270436

Or put another way, present day Ireland and Brittany look closest to I0806 on Eurogenes K36

I noted before that DF27 in England is more concentrated in SW England along the English Channel than elsewhere.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.jpg
Maybe some DF27 went from Central Europe (near I0806's location) to Brittany and then on to Southwest England and then to Ireland.

Seems strong in the midlands as well and far from negligible in the north

kevinduffy
01-07-2018, 06:09 AM
I think the social phenomenon was Catholic women marrying protestants who tended to be better off but then often bringing the kids up Catholic - hence catholics with Protestant surnames. I think it was a lot rarer for Protestant women to marry Catholic men as that usually meant downwards mobility.

And could you please explain why Irish Catholic men would occupy a lower social status than British Protestant men in the north of Ireland?

kevinduffy
01-07-2018, 06:13 AM
The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway.

But by what percentage of the population? It is quite possible that only a minority of people in the area spoke Gaelic.

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 06:14 AM
And could you please explain why Irish Catholic men would occupy a lower social status than British Protestant men in the north of Ireland?

The nature of the plantation that gave the best land to protestants and later persecution via and outside of law. There must be some studies out there showing the relative wealth.

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 06:19 AM
But by what percentage of the population? It is quite possible that only a minority of people in the area spoke Gaelic.

I'd guess more than those who spoke Non Rosses Gaelic in S Ulster in the late 20th century

kevinduffy
01-07-2018, 06:22 AM
I'd guess more than those who spoke Non Rosses Gaelic in S Ulster in the late 20th century

What is "Non Rosses"? I am not familiar with the term.

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 06:23 AM
I may be wrong, there might be a number who learned southern Gaelic

Pascal C
01-07-2018, 06:25 AM
What is "Non Rosses"? I am not familiar with the term.

I should say Donegal Gaelic. So Non Donegal.

Edit again. The Rosses (peninsulas) are in the west part of Donegal

kevinduffy
01-07-2018, 06:28 AM
Or put another way, present day Ireland and Brittany look closest to I0806 on Eurogenes K36

I don't know if anyone has posted this before but here are I0806's closest living relatives (population-wise):

puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit T253390

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 52.05
2 SW_Europe 39.04
3 West_Asia 8.91

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Orcadian 4.02
2 Irish 4.13
3 Scottish 4.33
4 Utahn_European 5
5 English 5.36
6 Norwegian 6.7
7 German_South 6.96
8 Belgian 6.98
9 German_North 7.13
10 Swedish 8.58
11 Hungarian 9.19
12 Slovene 9.9
13 Slovak 10.13
14 French 10.23
15 Ukrainian 10.57
16 Croatian 10.99
17 Bosnian 13.67
18 Belarusian 13.81
19 Moldavian 14.12
20 Serbian 16.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.4% Norwegian + 22.6% French_Basque @ 2.76
2 72.5% Swedish + 27.5% French_Basque @ 3.34
3 92.9% Irish + 7.1% French_Basque @ 3.82
4 95.5% Orcadian + 4.5% French_Basque @ 3.9
5 87% Orcadian + 13% Norwegian @ 3.94
6 90.7% Orcadian + 9.3% Swedish @ 3.94
7 99.4% Orcadian + 0.6% Lithuanian @ 4.02
8 99.5% Orcadian + 0.5% Estonian @ 4.02
9 100% Orcadian + 0% Latvian @ 4.02
10 100% Orcadian + 0% Abkhasian @ 4.02
11 100% Orcadian + 0% Adygei @ 4.02
12 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 4.02
13 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.02
14 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 4.02
15 100% Orcadian + 0% African_American @ 4.02
16 100% Orcadian + 0% Albanian @ 4.02
17 100% Orcadian + 0% Algerian @ 4.02
18 100% Orcadian + 0% Altaian @ 4.02
19 100% Orcadian + 0% Aluet @ 4.02
20 100% Orcadian + 0% Amhara @ 4.02

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 4.310500
2 Irish @ 4.424292
3 Scottish @ 4.669407
4 Utahn_European @ 5.324604
5 English @ 5.763805
6 Norwegian @ 7.217068
7 Belgian @ 7.527131
8 German_South @ 7.556292
9 German_North @ 7.632888
10 Swedish @ 9.263045
11 Hungarian @ 9.904297
12 Slovene @ 10.634048
13 Slovak @ 10.865765
14 French @ 11.084672
15 Ukrainian @ 11.339427
16 Croatian @ 11.892191
17 Bosnian @ 14.800000
18 Belarusian @ 14.858985
19 Moldavian @ 15.264853
20 Serbian @ 17.591736

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% Orcadian @ 4.310500


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English +25% French_Basque +25% Lithuanian @ 4.298881


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
1 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 3.040963
2 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.128309
3 French_Basque + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.344579
4 French_Basque + Scottish + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.352995
5 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.385090
6 Estonian + French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.428537
7 French_Basque + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.458738
8 French_Basque + Norwegian + Scottish + Swedish @ 3.467142
9 French_Basque + Orcadian + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.499905
10 French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.500065
11 French_Basque + German_North + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.520304
12 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 3.521803
13 French_Basque + German_North + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 3.543559
14 French_Basque + Irish + Lithuanian + Scottish @ 3.548110
15 Estonian + French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish @ 3.550405
16 Estonian + French_Basque + Irish + Scottish @ 3.554590
17 French_Basque + Latvian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.566169
18 French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian + Swedish @ 3.570236
19 French_Basque + Norwegian + Polish + Scottish @ 3.615650
20 French_Basque + German_North + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.622002

alan
01-07-2018, 11:47 PM
The Elizabethan conquest and the plantation

alan
01-08-2018, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the interesting info and graphic. So it is for sure it was the POBI that used to show the percentage of Irish DNA in the different populations of the British Isles? I thought it was the Irish DNA Atlas that originally showed percentages of Irish DNA in different regions of Great Britain. I searched in this long thread looking for a graphic, I had seen before, where it showed a large percentage of Irish autosomal DNA for the Galloway area in Southwest Scotland (as well as showing amount of Irish autosomal DNA in the other British regions).

Regardless of which source originally showed the Irish percentages, I think that Galloway and Ayrshire have a high proportion of Irish or Irish like autosomal DNA. This is interesting also because a large portion of the Planters to Ulster came from these and nearby regions. Galloway and nearby, certainly did have a lot of Gaelic and Norse-Gaelic connections. A topographical map reveals many Gaelic place names.

In about 1563-1566, an English military investigator said that the people of Carrick (in Ayrshire, Scotland which is right by Galloway) for the most part speak Erishe. The renowned Scottish historian George Buchanan (a speaker of Gaelic himself), writing in 1575, said that Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway. This is very close to the time of the unofficial plantings of Counties Antrim and Down of about 1606 and the official Ulster Plantation of 1609. So it appears very likely that some of the Planters from Galloway/Ayrshire could converse with the native Irish. Later in the 17th Century, Gaelic speaking Protestant Scottish Highlanders who immigrated to Ulster should have been able to communicate with the Gaelic Irish also.

I have heard that LivingDNA is going to do an autosomal DNA study of all of Scotland. I believe it will show many/most of the Highlands/Western Isles clusters will cluster close to many/most of the Gaelic Irish clusters and that many/most of the Galloway area clusters will cluster to many/most of the Gaelic Irish and Planter Clusters.

Kind Regards
I would agree with most of that. I think you are right that a minority of planters from SW Scotland we’re Gaelic speakers. Quite a lot common Protestant surnames in north Ireland are very clearly of Gaelic origins. There is a significant number of local Mac surnames in SW Scotland that are neither of recent highland or Irish origins and apparently have been local there for many centuries. It’s worth remembering that both the retreat of Gaelic and establishment of Protestantism was only decades deep in south-West Scotland at the time of the Ulster plantation c 1610 and only a generation or two earlier they and the native Irish were very similar. In fact any Scots over 50 in 1610 has been born into a pre- triumph of Protestantism Scotland.

fridurich
01-08-2018, 04:48 AM
I would agree with most of that. I think you are right that a minority of planters from SW Scotland we’re Gaelic speakers. Quite a lot common Protestant surnames in north Ireland are very clearly of Gaelic origins. There is a significant number of local Mac surnames in SW Scotland that are neither of recent highland or Irish origins and apparently have been local there for many centuries. It’s worth remembering that both the retreat of Gaelic and establishment of Protestantism was only decades deep in south-West Scotland at the time of the Ulster plantation c 1610 and only a generation or two earlier they and the native Irish were very similar. In fact any Scots over 50 in 1610 has been born into a pre- triumph of Protestantism Scotland.

Thanks for your observations and I agree with almost all you say. The following points also help explain why there was, or used to be some similarity between the Irish and the Scottish from Galloway/Ayrshire. You make some really good points. I have just been reading about and thinking about how the Scottish Reformation didn't appear to be taking firm hold until at least about 1550 or 1560 A. D. So, even if a Galloway or Ayrshire man was 30 years old at the time of the first main Ulster Plantation of 1609, his father may not have been Protestant, but probably certainly not his grandfather. So, if anyone 60 years or older from Ayrshire or Galloway immigrated to Ulster in 1609, they would probably remember the Catholicism in their homeland when they were a child. Even in the next generation or two in Ulster, they probably knew or heard talk their forefathers were Catholic.

So, before about 1550 A. D. or so, in the Galloway/Ayrshire areas where Gaelic was spoken, they would not only speak the same language as the Irish, but there would have been no religious barrier to prevent them from fraternizing and intermarrying. The Galwegians also had Norse and Gaelic ancestry. The distance between Antrim and Galloway is very short. In the 15th Century, and way before, all the way up to about the mid 16th Century, I think there would have been a lot of trade back and forth between Galloway and Antrim and other parts of Ireland. Through this I think there would be familiarity among the traders with some of the people on the other side of the North Channel.

You are right about their being a significant number of indigenous Galloway and/or Ayrshire surnames that are Gaelic. Some of these are McClintock, McGuffock, Kennedy, McDowall, McKIe, McCombs, McCulloch, and McClellan. Kennedy and perhaps one or two of the others also arose independently in Ireland. Their was a really important Kennedy family around Dunure in Ayrshire.

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-08-2018, 06:00 AM
But by what percentage of the population? It is quite possible that only a minority of people in the area spoke Gaelic.

It is possible by that time only a minority of the population in Galloway spoke Gaelic, but we really don't know. Carrick, in south Ayrshire however, I think is a different matter. If the Carrick of the 17th Century was about the size of Carrick (derived from a Gaelic word) today, then Carrick covered a large portion of Ayrshire. According to the English military investigator, the people of Carrick spoke Ershe for the most part. What is evident is that a powerful/influential Gaelic speaking people or peoples immigrated to Galloway long ago. There were also Brythonic speaking Celts, Angles, Saxons, and Normans in Galloway.

Way back in this thread there was a graphic that showed for an area in Galloway that it had a high proportion of Irish or Irish like DNA. I believe that was back when the Irish DNA Atlas was showing what percentages of Irish DNA the different regions of Britain had. Galloway is said to derive it's name from the part Viking part Gaelic inhabitants who immigrated to there.

Back to Galloway as a whole, I believe that during the 14th and 15th Centuries A. D. and way before that, almost all of Galloway and Ayrshire was Gaelic speaking. I also think a significant part of these areas spoke Gaelic throughout the 16th Century and, probably by the end of the 17th Century, a very small percentage of the people spoke it. The last Gaelic speaker in Galloway/Ayrshire was said to be Margaret McMurray who died about 1760. I can get you a reference to that.

Something else interesting is the "Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy" which is a Scottish poem that was written early in the 16th Century. In it William Dunbar of Lothian in Southeastern Scotland and Walter Kennedy from Carrick, right by Galloway in Southwest Scotland verbally joust each other. The use of the words is interesting as it seems to reflect dislike between Anglo Saxon oriented Lothian and Gaelic Galloway/Carrick.

Dunbar refers to Kennedy as an Iersche (Irish or Gaelic) bard in section 7. Also in section 7, Dunbar mentions something about Kennedy's Heland (Highland) tongue, or maybe he's saying accent. In Section 14, Dunbar speaks of such eloquence as they in Erschry (Irishry or Gaeldom) use. In section 19 Dunbar refers to Kennedy as an Ersch (Irish or Gaelic) katherene (Cattaran? meaning rustler or brigand?.

https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/flyting-dumbar-and-kennedie

So, rather than the Carrick/Galloway part of Lowland Scotland being culturally Anglo Saxon and it's people being of that stock, this poem seems to speak otherwise. (although Im sure Galwegians/Ayrshire people have some Saxon and Norman admixture.) At the very least it appears to show that from an Anglo Saxon Lothian point of view, represented by Dunbar, the people of the Carrick/Galloway area where Kennedy was from, were looked upon as the same people as the Scottish Highlanders and the Irish. Notice Dunbar's reference to Heland (Highland), (I)ersche (Irish or Gaelic), and Erschry (Irishry or Gaeldom).

Kennedy retaliates in fine fashion and mentions that Dunbar should make England his home. Kennedy may have been part of the important Kennedy clan of Dunure in south Ayrshire. Kennedy, now that's a Gaelic surname for sure! We know of course it also arose independently in Ireland.

Look to my reply to Avalon concerning Gaelic surnames that are indigenous to Galloway or Ayrshire, etc.

Kind Regards

alan
01-08-2018, 08:28 AM
Even today the lilting accent and even the people of Galloway are nicknamed the Galloway Irish - a term that has nothing to do with 19th century Irish migration as that wouldn’t make sense as Irish migration of that period was stronger elsewhere. It is a bit obscure but there are placenames and other references that suggests Irish settlements of the Rinns of Galloway area over 1000 years ago. It has been suggested they were refugees from south Antrim DalnAraide and Ui Thuirtre tribes who were squeezed out in the 1000-1200 period by a mix of native wars and Normans. It’s interesting that the De Galloway (MacUchted) family owned both coastal Antrim and Galloway c 1200AD. It’s also interesting that the word word Creeny (cruithne) was locally used for the people of the Rinns of Galloway - most likely Irish DalnAraide (reckoned as Cruithne in Irish sources) refugees of c 1200. They are probably the source of the confused ‘Picts of Galloway’ tradition. It’s an interesting area but even today it’s a very off the beaten track area that most people pass through only because they are heading to or from the ferry to Belfast or Larne in Antrim. It’s much more like an outlier of the Gaelic-Norse maritime world which is not surprising when you consider Galloway comes from the Gaelic for Gall-Gael ‘Gaelic-Norse’ hybrid just as the Hebrides further north was. That Gaelic Norse culture dominated areas easiest controlled by sea from the Isle of Man to the Isles of Lewis.

As a side note though, other Scottish planters came from the landlocked borders area where the cultural and genetic backgrounds was different with far less either Gaelic or Norse and probably mostly a Anglian-Norman adstrate and sculture on a Brythonic Genetic substrate. Much more a typical borders and south-east Scottish mix. Those two Scottish planter groups probably looked fairly distinct as noted by anthropologists in the 19th century with a typical rural western seaboard Scottish tallish dark haired light eyed group on the one hand and the shorter fairer people in the east. The pattern of the darker haired west coast rural folk being taller than the fairer haired east coasters was noted in both Scotland and Ireland in the 19th and early 20th centuries, contrasting with England where fairer populations were taller. If you read the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland about 180 years ago they describe the populations of some of the heaviest Scottish planted parishes in Antrim as fairly tall and mostly dark haired just as sources describe the population of SW Scotland in that period. There is also clearly a fair element in north Irish Protestants but I suspect that comes more from the borders and SE of Scotland and England.

alan
01-08-2018, 09:14 AM
Another thing worth noting is both the catholic and Protestant populations of north Ireland have a substantial Hebridean/west highland Scots input. In the catholic case this dates to around 1200-1600 and in the protest ant case from the end of the 17th century to the mid 18th century. IMO both sides share a significant amount of similar genetic ancestry. As I posted before too there has been a lot of mixing in Belfast where half the population of Northern Ireland live too, both directions but especially Protestant males and catholic women leading to many catholics with ‘planter’ surnames. The reverse is also common enough in a belfast but not as frequent. It should also be noted today that it’s the poorer urban areas that retain segregated housing patterns. This is much less true of better off areas where it’s your bank balance not religion that dictates housing

kevinduffy
01-08-2018, 10:14 AM
Another thing worth noting is both the catholic and Protestant populations of north Ireland have a substantial Hebridean/west highland Scots input. In the catholic case this dates to around 1200-1600 and in the protest ant case from the end of the 17th century to the mid 18th century. IMO both sides share a significant amount of similar genetic ancestry. As I posted before too there has been a lot of mixing in Belfast where half the population of Northern Ireland live too, both directions but especially Protestant males and catholic women leading to many catholics with ‘planter’ surnames. The reverse is also common enough in a belfast but not as frequent. It should also be noted today that it’s the poorer urban areas that retain segregated housing patterns. This is much less true of better off areas where it’s your bank balance not religion that dictates housing

What is your evidence to back up these claims?

alan
01-08-2018, 11:22 AM
What is your evidence to back up these claims?

The shared Hebridean west highland ancestry is well known, noted in various histories and manifest in surnames. As for the mixing of the two religious communities it’s personal knowledge of many people’s family histories as I live in the north of Ireland.

alan
01-08-2018, 11:39 AM
The shared Hebridean west highland ancestry is well known, noted in various histories and manifest in surnames. As for the mixing of the two religious communities it’s personal knowledge of many people’s family histories as I live in the north of Ireland.

Actually most people I know well are catholics and a I would say of the 20 people/families I know best at least two thirds have knowledge of at least one Protestant ancestor in their family background in the last 4 generations. It may well be just the one great grandparent out of 8 but it’s amazing how families you would never think are mixed turn out to be when you talk about it. And the cool thing is there is no shame etc because most people actually define by community or political identity rather than genes. That doesn’t change that the catholics are mostly ‘native’ in overall ancestry and the Protestants mostly ‘planter’ but the individuals in both groups most certainly are usually a little admixed with each other in the last handful of generations. In the cases I know it seems a lot of the admixing happened in the later 19th and earlier 20th century in industrial areas

Webb
01-08-2018, 07:54 PM
I don't know if anyone has posted this before but here are I0806's closest living relatives (population-wise):

puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit T253390

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 52.05
2 SW_Europe 39.04
3 West_Asia 8.91

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Orcadian 4.02
2 Irish 4.13
3 Scottish 4.33
4 Utahn_European 5
5 English 5.36
6 Norwegian 6.7
7 German_South 6.96
8 Belgian 6.98
9 German_North 7.13
10 Swedish 8.58
11 Hungarian 9.19
12 Slovene 9.9
13 Slovak 10.13
14 French 10.23
15 Ukrainian 10.57
16 Croatian 10.99
17 Bosnian 13.67
18 Belarusian 13.81
19 Moldavian 14.12
20 Serbian 16.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.4% Norwegian + 22.6% French_Basque @ 2.76
2 72.5% Swedish + 27.5% French_Basque @ 3.34
3 92.9% Irish + 7.1% French_Basque @ 3.82
4 95.5% Orcadian + 4.5% French_Basque @ 3.9
5 87% Orcadian + 13% Norwegian @ 3.94
6 90.7% Orcadian + 9.3% Swedish @ 3.94
7 99.4% Orcadian + 0.6% Lithuanian @ 4.02
8 99.5% Orcadian + 0.5% Estonian @ 4.02
9 100% Orcadian + 0% Latvian @ 4.02
10 100% Orcadian + 0% Abkhasian @ 4.02
11 100% Orcadian + 0% Adygei @ 4.02
12 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 4.02
13 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.02
14 100% Orcadian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 4.02
15 100% Orcadian + 0% African_American @ 4.02
16 100% Orcadian + 0% Albanian @ 4.02
17 100% Orcadian + 0% Algerian @ 4.02
18 100% Orcadian + 0% Altaian @ 4.02
19 100% Orcadian + 0% Aluet @ 4.02
20 100% Orcadian + 0% Amhara @ 4.02

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 4.310500
2 Irish @ 4.424292
3 Scottish @ 4.669407
4 Utahn_European @ 5.324604
5 English @ 5.763805
6 Norwegian @ 7.217068
7 Belgian @ 7.527131
8 German_South @ 7.556292
9 German_North @ 7.632888
10 Swedish @ 9.263045
11 Hungarian @ 9.904297
12 Slovene @ 10.634048
13 Slovak @ 10.865765
14 French @ 11.084672
15 Ukrainian @ 11.339427
16 Croatian @ 11.892191
17 Bosnian @ 14.800000
18 Belarusian @ 14.858985
19 Moldavian @ 15.264853
20 Serbian @ 17.591736

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% Orcadian @ 4.310500


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English +25% French_Basque +25% Lithuanian @ 4.298881


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
1 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 3.040963
2 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.128309
3 French_Basque + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.344579
4 French_Basque + Scottish + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.352995
5 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.385090
6 Estonian + French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.428537
7 French_Basque + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.458738
8 French_Basque + Norwegian + Scottish + Swedish @ 3.467142
9 French_Basque + Orcadian + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.499905
10 French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.500065
11 French_Basque + German_North + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.520304
12 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 3.521803
13 French_Basque + German_North + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 3.543559
14 French_Basque + Irish + Lithuanian + Scottish @ 3.548110
15 Estonian + French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish @ 3.550405
16 Estonian + French_Basque + Irish + Scottish @ 3.554590
17 French_Basque + Latvian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.566169
18 French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian + Swedish @ 3.570236
19 French_Basque + Norwegian + Polish + Scottish @ 3.615650
20 French_Basque + German_North + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.622002

Not too shabby for a DF27 guy!!!

kevinduffy
01-09-2018, 01:07 AM
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/irish-ancestry-dna-map-ireland-vikings-genetics-science/

Extract:

The researchers expected to see differences from south to north and from east to west, similar to how lineages are organized in Europe and the U.K. more broadly. But in Ireland, genetic signatures are clustered very strongly with the four ancient kingdoms of Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. The Ulster genetic signature is different from those across the rest of Ireland. That's probably a result of the Ulster Plantation settlements of the 1600s—a time when Irish Catholics were being forced off the land by the English monarchy—and more frequent travel between Scotland and northern Ireland over time.

I think "frequent travel" is a nice way of saying invasion and colonization.

mud of aluvion
01-09-2018, 07:29 AM
*a time when Irish Catholics were being forced off the land by the English monarchy* l find that offensive tbh lol king james wasnt english he was scottish .

mud of aluvion
01-09-2018, 07:53 AM
interesting that you say that because scots irish term was created in the 19th century long after these people who migrated from all over ireland to the frontier , the term scots irish as we all know was created in the 19th century to differentiate between the older protestant irish and the new catholic irish from the famine its completely based on bigotry and was back up by anglo americans looking to write the irish contributions of america out of the history books ,the so called scots irish refer to themselves as nothing but irish in the records and many have clear irish surnames ,theres a very insightful book written by professor michael j o'brien from way back called, A Hidden Phase of American History : Ireland's Part in America's Struggle for Liberty in it o'brein exiamed one of the muster rolls and found some 10,000 quintessential clear irish surnames , l think the majority were native irish surnames infact . relgious propaganda is a powerful tool as we all know , could it be possible that the majority of the so called scots irish who went to the american frontier were of native irish ancestry as opposed to planter ancestry ?

kevinduffy
01-09-2018, 10:24 AM
*a time when Irish Catholics were being forced off the land by the English monarchy* l find that offensive tbh lol king james wasnt english he was scottish .

How about British monarchy then?

Seamus Mac an Bhiard
01-09-2018, 05:46 PM
I am interested in Irish DNA as I am a Mac an Bhaird from Galway. I have wanted to find if there are genetic links with the family names from Sogain and the Ui Many, and what can be reasonably gleaned from any matches. Many of these family names date to times before surnames were used. My own family name and it's genetic origins are mere speculation before the 9th century, as the Wards were largely thought to be a separate genetic group from the majority of Ui Many genetics belonging to Maine Mor or a close relative. My family name is thought to be of an earlier tribe quite possibly Pict or Scottish. Some of the names of these early Sogain warriors are as follows: Mannion, Scurry, Ward, Duggan, Gill, Martin, Cassain. My GED Match kit# is T919286

Dubhthach
01-09-2018, 07:56 PM
Seamus,

Have you done any Y-DNA specific testing? I have for example seen a number of Wards which came back as R-M222+, obviously if you do Y-DNA testing your results can be compared with other men/surnames.

fridurich
01-11-2018, 04:48 AM
Even today the lilting accent and even the people of Galloway are nicknamed the Galloway Irish - a term that has nothing to do with 19th century Irish migration as that wouldn’t make sense as Irish migration of that period was stronger elsewhere. It is a bit obscure but there are placenames and other references that suggests Irish settlements of the Rinns of Galloway area over 1000 years ago. It has been suggested they were refugees from south Antrim DalnAraide and Ui Thuirtre tribes who were squeezed out in the 1000-1200 period by a mix of native wars and Normans. It’s interesting that the De Galloway (MacUchted) family owned both coastal Antrim and Galloway c 1200AD. It’s also interesting that the word word Creeny (cruithne) was locally used for the people of the Rinns of Galloway - most likely Irish DalnAraide (reckoned as Cruithne in Irish sources) refugees of c 1200. They are probably the source of the confused ‘Picts of Galloway’ tradition. It’s an interesting area but even today it’s a very off the beaten track area that most people pass through only because they are heading to or from the ferry to Belfast or Larne in Antrim. It’s much more like an outlier of the Gaelic-Norse maritime world which is not surprising when you consider Galloway comes from the Gaelic for Gall-Gael ‘Gaelic-Norse’ hybrid just as the Hebrides further north was. That Gaelic Norse culture dominated areas easiest controlled by sea from the Isle of Man to the Isles of Lewis.

As a side note though, other Scottish planters came from the landlocked borders area where the cultural and genetic backgrounds was different with far less either Gaelic or Norse and probably mostly a Anglian-Norman adstrate and sculture on a Brythonic Genetic substrate. Much more a typical borders and south-east Scottish mix. Those two Scottish planter groups probably looked fairly distinct as noted by anthropologists in the 19th century with a typical rural western seaboard Scottish tallish dark haired light eyed group on the one hand and the shorter fairer people in the east. The pattern of the darker haired west coast rural folk being taller than the fairer haired east coasters was noted in both Scotland and Ireland in the 19th and early 20th centuries, contrasting with England where fairer populations were taller. If you read the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland about 180 years ago they describe the populations of some of the heaviest Scottish planted parishes in Antrim as fairly tall and mostly dark haired just as sources describe the population of SW Scotland in that period. There is also clearly a fair element in north Irish Protestants but I suspect that comes more from the borders and SE of Scotland and England.

Very interesting things you wrote. I haven't heard of a Galloway Irish accent before. Yes, I have read of Irish settlement of the Rhinns of Galloway a long time ago. I'm assuming the De Galloway family is the one that had Thomas and Alan of Galloway, who were said to be descended from Fergus, of Galloway, a powerful leader. I have read about the settlement that was made in Antrim and other places in Ulster in the very early part of the 13th Century by Thomas and Alan, but wasn't able to find out if the colony lasted there long enough to leave a genetic imprint.

I didn't mean to imply that all of the Scottish Planters to Ulster came from Galloway/Ayrshire, because I knew they probably came from all over Scotland. In James Leyburn's book "The Scotch-Irish, A Social History", on P. 94 he says that the records clearly show which part of the Lowlands that most of the early settlers in Ulster came from. He said that Galloway provided the greatest number (mainly because it was closest to Ulster), a region of Southwest Scotland he says included the shires of Ayr, Renfrew, Dumfries, Dumbarton, and Lanark. His definition is broader than the modern map of Galloway and Ayrshire, with Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire, and Dumbartonshire not being part of Galloway/Ayrshire. However, they aren't far from it. He said the next area that provided the most settlers was the counties around Edinburgh, the Lothians and Berwick, while a much smaller group came from the area between Aberdeen and Inverness in the Northeast.

Interestingly, King James had specified that only people from the inward parts (the Lowlands) of Scotland would be allowed to immigrate to Ulster in the 1609 Plantation. This seems to have been overlooked over time, as there appear to be quite a number of Highland Scottish surnames added to the Ulster Scot mix. Perhaps some of the Highlanders had moved into the Lowland regions, and I think some came from the Western Isles. The Highland Buchanan clan lived very close to the Lowlands.

Also very interesting, about the amount of tall, dark haired, light eyed people noted in rural areas of the Western seaboard of Scotland.

Speaking of the Scottish Borders, YDNA haplogroup Z255 is found in many of the Scottish border Beatty families. This same haplogroup is found in quite a number of Irish O'Byrnes and Kavanaughs. But I know the Border area, and other Scottish Lowland areas had Anglo Saxon, Norman, and Brythonic Celtic blood, with a lot less of the Gaelic and Viking blood.

King Regards

fridurich
01-11-2018, 05:25 AM
Another thing worth noting is both the catholic and Protestant populations of north Ireland have a substantial Hebridean/west highland Scots input. In the catholic case this dates to around 1200-1600 and in the protest ant case from the end of the 17th century to the mid 18th century. IMO both sides share a significant amount of similar genetic ancestry. As I posted before too there has been a lot of mixing in Belfast where half the population of Northern Ireland live too, both directions but especially Protestant males and catholic women leading to many catholics with ‘planter’ surnames. The reverse is also common enough in a belfast but not as frequent. It should also be noted today that it’s the poorer urban areas that retain segregated housing patterns. This is much less true of better off areas where it’s your bank balance not religion that dictates housing

Well your opinion of the shared ancestry of the Planters and the Gaelic Irish has been backed up by the Irish DNA Atlas project. I think it's the third paragraph of "Admixture within Ireland" where they mention all three of the Planter groups have significant Gaelic Irish admixture. In the digital supplementary area, they mention their techniques for arriving at this. They thought most of this admixture occurred sometime in the 17th or 18th Centuries, within the Plantation framework.

Regarding the Hebridean/West Highlands input to both the Planters and the Gaelic Irish, under the next to last paragraph in "Discussion", the project authors indicate that some of the gene flow between Britain and Ireland, and vice versa, could have taken place before the Plantations. They specifically mention the hiring of the Scottish Gallowglass mercenaries, (who intermarried with the Irish, and over time became Irish septs in their own right.) from the the 13th Century to the early 15th Century, and mention the numerous Redshank Scottish mercenaries that were hired all through the 16th Century. Of course Norman and Irish admixture could also be a part of this, as well as movements between Britain and Ireland during the ancient kingdom of Dal Riata.

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-11-2018, 05:55 AM
Actually most people I know well are catholics and a I would say of the 20 people/families I know best at least two thirds have knowledge of at least one Protestant ancestor in their family background in the last 4 generations. It may well be just the one great grandparent out of 8 but it’s amazing how families you would never think are mixed turn out to be when you talk about it. And the cool thing is there is no shame etc because most people actually define by community or political identity rather than genes. That doesn’t change that the catholics are mostly ‘native’ in overall ancestry and the Protestants mostly ‘planter’ but the individuals in both groups most certainly are usually a little admixed with each other in the last handful of generations. In the cases I know it seems a lot of the admixing happened in the later 19th and earlier 20th century in industrial areas

A lot of what you are saying about admixing between the Planter stock and the Native Irish stock and any segregation seems to be similar to what a distant cousin of mine has said that lives in County Down. She is a fairly strong autosomal match to my late Uncle Lee O'Hair, and I share less DNA with her. She herself has mixed Ulster Scot/Planter blood and Gaelic Irish blood. She had a great grandmother that was a Catholic O'Hare who married a Protestant.

Her Presbyterian father spoke fluent Irish and her mother was Catholic. She said she thought that the division of people in Northern Ireland into either Catholic native Gaelic Irish and Protestant Planters was a lazy way to divide people. She doesn't see that breakdown of the population being that simple or completely accurate. She said there was segregation but it had never been that widespread or simple. She said there is no segregation in her families. Her distant O'Hare cousin has mixed Gaelic Irish and Planter blood. And it's not just admixing in the later 19th and earlier 20th Centuries, but the much further back 17th and/or 18th Centuries. Even further back we go to the Scottish Gallowglass with Native Irish admixture, etc.

Kind Regards

Saetro
01-12-2018, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by alan
Even today the lilting accent and even the people of Galloway are nicknamed the Galloway Irish - a term that has nothing to do with 19th century Irish migration as that wouldn’t make sense as Irish migration of that period was stronger elsewhere.


Very interesting things you wrote. I haven't heard of a Galloway Irish accent before.

I knew for some years a Galloway man with that very accent. Scots would say that he was Irish. I would say that there was an Irish edge to his Scottish accent.
His history was that his family had come to Galloway from Ireland in the 19th century.
(Having gone over during the Plantations.)

CannabisErectusHibernius
01-12-2018, 06:43 AM
So I was wondering what the experts think about haplotype donation from Ballynahatty? How much of the Irish genome actually comes from the Irish Neolithic? More then the supposed 5 to 10 percent from the Olaide BB paper in Britain?

Teutorigos
01-13-2018, 02:51 PM
I am American but if I had to guess the so called native Ulster Irish are a mix of Irish, Scottish, and English because my paternal grandfather was from Donegal and his wife was English or an English/Scottish mix. My maternal grandfather was Southern Irish and his wife mostly German with some French.

Where am I going with this ? AncestryDNA insists that my only genetic community is Ulster Irish and it says the connection is likely. In regards to the German/ French admixture I guess it is just being seen as Anglo-Saxon or a Saxon/Norman mix.

My GEDmatch kit number is A703943

Teutorigos
01-13-2018, 03:30 PM
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/irish-ancestry-dna-map-ireland-vikings-genetics-science/

Extract:

The researchers expected to see differences from south to north and from east to west, similar to how lineages are organized in Europe and the U.K. more broadly. But in Ireland, genetic signatures are clustered very strongly with the four ancient kingdoms of Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. The Ulster genetic signature is different from those across the rest of Ireland. That's probably a result of the Ulster Plantation settlements of the 1600s—a time when Irish Catholics were being forced off the land by the English monarchy—and more frequent travel between Scotland and northern Ireland over time.

I think "frequent travel" is a nice way of saying invasion and colonization.

In AncestryDNA terminology the average Celtic or Irish, Welsh and Scottish admixture for Ulster is only 51.9%.

Connacht 76.7%
Leinster 71.8%
Munster 71.4%
Ulster 51.9%

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/files/2015/03/AncestryDNA11112.jpg

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2015/03/16/what-does-our-dna-tell-us-about-being-irish/

Even though AncestryDNA uses a different technology or algorithm for its genetic communities it says I am :

52% Ireland, Scotland, Wales
37% British (Anglo-Saxon)
6% Scandinavian etc...

It says my only genetic community is Ulster Irish. Since the mainland Scottish are intermediate between the native Irish/Welsh and English/Germanics genetically this suggests that the Ulster Irish are perhaps genetically closer to the Scots than to the southern Irish.

kevinduffy
01-13-2018, 03:33 PM
In AncestryDNA terminology the average Celtic or Irish, Welsh and Scottish admixture for Ulster is only 52%.

Connacht 76.7%
Leinster 71.8%
Munster 71.4%
Ulster 51.9%

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/files/2015/03/AncestryDNA11112.jpg

Even though AncestryDNA uses a different technology or algorithm for its genetic communities it says I am :

52% Ireland, Scotland, Wales
37% British (Anglo-Saxon)
6% Scandinavian etc...

It says my only genetic community is Ulster Irish. Since the mainland Scottish are intermediate between the native Irish/Welsh and English/Germanics genetically this suggests that the Ulster Irish are perhaps genetically closer to Scots than southern Irish.

That is because much of the native Irish Catholic population of Ulster was ethnically cleansed by British invaders.

kevinduffy
01-13-2018, 03:53 PM
Anyone here interested in participating in this project?

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13070-Lukasz-K47-PCA

Nqp15hhu
01-13-2018, 04:32 PM
Well, I am from Northern Ireland and I have 88% Celtic and 12% Europe and Asia.

My Genetic Communities are Ulster Irish and Scotland.

I'm not convinced that the Celtic community is shorthand for Ireland only.

Nqp15hhu
01-13-2018, 04:33 PM
I am American but if I had to guess the so called native Ulster Irish are a mix of Irish, Scottish, and English because my paternal grandfather was from Donegal and his wife was English or an English/Scottish mix. My maternal grandfather was Southern Irish and his wife mostly German with some French.

Where am I going with this ? AncestryDNA insists that my only genetic community is Ulster Irish and it says the connection is likely. In regards to the German/ French admixture I guess it is just being seen as Anglo-Saxon or a Saxon/Norman mix.

My GEDmatch kit number is A703943
I'm Northern Irish and have Ulster Irish and Scotland as Genetic communities.

Dubhthach
01-13-2018, 04:55 PM
I imagine the 2015 blog from Ancestry reflects a inflection in time when the AncestryDNA database for Irish samples was quite small. It's only in last year or so that they have gotten publicity here in Ireland, for example on Late Late Show as well as tv adds. In general I've only seen levels of 70-75% for irish component in people from Greater Dublin region. It would help of course if Ancestry did an update blog post with regards to various components and their frequency.

kevinduffy
01-13-2018, 04:59 PM
I'm Northern Irish and have Ulster Irish and Scotland as Genetic communities.

There is no such thing as "Northern Irish". You are either British or Irish.

Nqp15hhu
01-13-2018, 07:41 PM
Not sure I agree.

cilldara
01-13-2018, 09:41 PM
I imagine the 2015 blog from Ancestry reflects a inflection in time when the AncestryDNA database for Irish samples was quite small. It's only in last year or so that they have gotten publicity here in Ireland, for example on Late Late Show as well as tv adds. In general I've only seen levels of 70-75% for irish component in people from Greater Dublin region. It would help of course if Ancestry did an update blog post with regards to various components and their frequency.

I'm 81% Ireland/Scotland/Wales. My father is 86% and my mother is 89%.

Dubhthach
01-14-2018, 12:09 AM
I'm 81% Ireland/Scotland/Wales. My father is 86% and my mother is 89%.

I got 89% myself, but my parents are 94% and 95%, makes me think that the older tests (myself) might get lower scores as they had smaller database. Though I will admit that I did get 90% 'British and Irish' in 23andme, so it's possible that small segments are causing confusion when it comes to trace regions (Resulting in lower level compared to my parents). I do wonder though if I retook ancestry test if I would get a much different result.

fridurich
01-14-2018, 12:11 AM
There is no such thing as "Northern Irish". You are either British or Irish.

Thanks for your contributions to the forum. My last name is O'Hair and my O'Hair ancestor came from County Down, Ireland which is in Northern Ireland now.

My late O'Hair uncle is an autosomal match to a lady (I share less DNA with her.) with an Ulster Scot maiden name who lives in County Down. I have been corresponding with her. The following shows her ancestry is both Gaelic Irish and British, with the British part being Ulster Scot for sure, and she probably has some Ulster English ancestry. She said her Presbyterian father spoke fluent Irish and her mother was Catholic. She mentioned that her maiden name was Ulster Scot. She also had a Catholic O'Hare great grandmother who married a Protestant.

About 3 hours ago I messaged her and asked her a question. I asked her about what ethnicity she identifies herself. She said she is a little odd as she considers herself to be both British and Irish. She said she supposes that if she was pushed about it she would consider herself to be Northern Irish.

Kind Regards

David Mc
01-14-2018, 12:58 AM
There is no such thing as "Northern Irish". You are either British or Irish.

I'm pretty sure this part of the thread was already addressed by a moderator. While I'm sure Northern Irish people everywhere love having Americans explain the ins-and-outs of their identity to them, it isn't supposed to be happening on this forum.

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 02:41 AM
I'm pretty sure this part of the thread was already addressed by a moderator. While I'm sure Northern Irish people everywhere love having Americans explain the ins-and-outs of their identity to them, it isn't supposed to be happening on this forum.

Please explain to me what a "Northern Irish" person is?

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 02:43 AM
Thanks for your contributions to the forum. My last name is O'Hair and my O'Hair ancestor came from County Down, Ireland which is in Northern Ireland now.

My late O'Hair uncle is an autosomal match to a lady (I share less DNA with her.) with an Ulster Scot maiden name who lives in County Down. I have been corresponding with her. The following shows her ancestry is both Gaelic Irish and British, with the British part being Ulster Scot for sure, and she probably has some Ulster English ancestry. She said her Presbyterian father spoke fluent Irish and her mother was Catholic. She mentioned that her maiden name was Ulster Scot. She also had a Catholic O'Hare great grandmother who married a Protestant.

About 3 hours ago I messaged her and asked her a question. I asked her about what ethnicity she identifies herself. She said she is a little odd as she considers herself to be both British and Irish. She said she supposes that if she was pushed about it she would consider herself to be Northern Irish.

Kind Regards

Can you explain why if your last name is really O'Hair you use the non-Celtic name fridurich? Also just because you claimed something happened does not mean that it did. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the above conversation took place or - even if it did - how factual it was.

rms2
01-14-2018, 02:53 AM
Oh, geez.

spruithean
01-14-2018, 03:21 AM
Please explain to me what a "Northern Irish" person is?

I'm only going to partially bite on the hook here, but you do know you could do a brief search through google for "Northern Irish" and "national identity in Northern Ireland"?


Can you explain why if your last name is really O'Hair you use the non-Celtic name fridurich? Also just because you claimed something happened does not mean that it did. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the above conversation took place or - even if it did - how factual it was.

What does this have to do with anything?

fridurich
01-14-2018, 03:27 AM
Can you prove that any of this took place outside of your imagination?

With her permission, I can send you screen shots of the Gedmatch comparisons between my uncle and her, and myself and her. With her permission I could also send screen shots of our conversation, also, if she gave permission and wanted you to, you could message her and ask her directly these matters. She LIVES in Northern Ireland and we don't.

I'm a man of integrity and don't deliberately say things that have no truthful basis or evidence to back them up. When you said "Can you prove that any of this took place outside of your imagination?", that was highly insulting and won't win you many friends on this forum speaking like that. I have been nice to you, but don't talk to me in such a manner anymore. I am to be respected just as you would want respect on this forum.

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 03:32 AM
With her permission, I can send you screen shots of the Gedmatch comparisons between my uncle and her, and myself and her. With her permission I could also send screen shots of our conversation, also, if she gave permission and wanted you to, you could message her and ask her directly these matters. She LIVES in Northern Ireland and we don't.

I'm a man of integrity and don't deliberately say things that have no truthful basis or evidence to back them up. When you said "Can you prove that any of this took place outside of your imagination?", that was highly insulting and won't win you many friends on this forum speaking like that. I have been nice to you, but don't talk to me in such a manner anymore. I am to be respected just as you would want respect on this forum.

I am not here to win friends. I am here to express my opinions. I do not demand the respect of total strangers. Please post all evidence that you have backing up your claims. Including that your last name is O'Hair. Thank you.

spruithean
01-14-2018, 03:38 AM
I am not here to win friends. I am here to express my opinions. I do not demand the respect of total strangers. Please post all evidence that you have backing up your claims. Including that your last name is O'Hair. Thank you.

Why does he need to prove his surname is O'Hair? Why does that matter to you?

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 03:45 AM
Why does he need to prove his surname is O'Hair? Why does that matter to you?

Because it would prove that he was telling the truth about something.

spruithean
01-14-2018, 03:58 AM
Because it would prove that he was telling the truth about something.

Why do you assume that he isn't telling the truth? I'm not going to discuss the very touchy subject of national identity in Northern Ireland, at least not here.

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 04:03 AM
Why do you assume that he isn't telling the truth? I'm not going to discuss the very touchy subject of national identity in Northern Ireland, at least not here.

I have generally found that it is safer to assume that someone is lying to you than that they are telling the truth. Particularly when they are a stranger on the Internet.

JMcB
01-14-2018, 04:07 AM
Because it would prove that he was telling the truth about something.

Why does he need to prove anything to you!? I believe him and personally I think you should cut the crap! The moderator has already had to intervene once because you can’t stay on subject and frankly, from what I can see, no one is interested in what you’re peddling. So maybe you should take a hint and take it somewhere else.

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 04:13 AM
Why does he need to prove anything to you!? I believe him and personally I think you should cut the crap! The moderator has already had to intervene once because you can’t stay on subject and frankly, from what I can see, no one is interested in what you’re peddling. So maybe you should take a hint and take it somewhere else.

If you or anyone else doesn't find me interesting then you are all free to ignore me.

spruithean
01-14-2018, 04:26 AM
I have generally found that it is safer to assume that someone is lying to you than that they are telling the truth. Particularly when they are a stranger on the Internet.

While that's an understandable stance to take, his cousin's story is not an isolated scenario and a member of this site who lives in Northern Ireland, who replied in this thread, has disagreed with you. I would take the opinion of someone from Northern Ireland over the opinion of someone who does not live there.

kevinduffy
01-14-2018, 04:28 AM
While that's an understandable stance to take, his cousin's story is not an isolated scenario and a member of this site who lives in Northern Ireland, who replied in this thread, has disagreed with you. I would take the opinion of someone from Northern Ireland over the opinion of someone who does not live there.

Just because they live in the north of Ireland doesn't mean that they can't be wrong.

rms2
01-14-2018, 07:05 PM
I am not here to win friends . . .

Well, you're doing just fine then. ;)

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 07:38 PM
I'm only going to partially bite on the hook here, but you do know you could do a brief search through google for "Northern Irish" and "national identity in Northern Ireland"?

Here's the results of a recent study

https://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34177079.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/NATgen.jpg
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/bill-white/what-nationality-do-people-in-northern-ireland-think-they-are-34177095.html

CannabisErectusHibernius
01-14-2018, 08:10 PM
I am not here to win friends. I am here to express my opinions. I do not demand the respect of total strangers. Please post all evidence that you have backing up your claims. Including that your last name is O'Hair. Thank you.

Let me guess, you want to see Obama's birth certificate as well. Dude, your game is banal, trollish, and more then a little acerbic. Take your infantile rhetoric elsewhere.

sktibo
01-14-2018, 09:24 PM
Since the interesting topic of Northern Ireland was brought up, I think we should keep going on that subject.

The DNA Atlas has divided it into three categories, but two of them are pretty odd - especially Northern Ireland 1. NI1 is pretty hard to distinguish, as it is what looks to be an orange-red cross, close to the darker red S Wales 1.
In Ireland itself, I count only 3 NI1 markers. I count 1 in Cumbria, 4 in Northumbria, 5 in Northern England (ranging from NW England to Yorkshire areas). There's 1 in Devon, 2 around South-Central England, and 5, yes, those crosses in Kent are to my eye orange, not red, five "Northern Ireland I" markers in Kent.
That's a total of twenty NI1 markers in England vs a whopping three in Ireland. Clearly this is not a Northern Irish genetic marker at all - yet is so interesting because it looks to be found throughout Ireland and throughout England.

Now let's look at "Northern Ireland III"
I count 3 in Northern Ireland, 1 in Dublin, 1 in SW Scotland, 1 in Northumbria, 3 in Cumbria, and 1 in between the two. There's also one in Lincolnshire area. Again, the markers for this one outnumber the markers which are actually in Ireland - and it looks to be a bit spread out also, although not as much as NI1.

So "Northern Ireland I" actually looks to be an outlying British genetic marker which can't be attributed to any one specific part of Britain or Ireland, and "Northern Ireland III" looks to be more or less contained to Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Therefore, we can say that "Northern Ireland 2" is actually the only genetic marker in the Northern Ireland category which is truly representative of the Ulster-Scot genetic group, however it also looks to be found in a couple of spots in Scotland excluding the South-West, as well as in Cumbria and Northumbria.

I find it absolutely fascinating that the NI1 group is found in 5 individuals in the South-East of England, which we often assume to be one of the most Germanic or Anglo-Saxon regions.


This examination makes me re-evaluate the PCA graph:

20764

The Light Blue Squares are NI2. I have attempted to draw a dark line around their range to get a better idea of where this falls - It actually looks to be slightly closer to England than to Ireland, clustering most strongly near where the Northern Scotland grouping is, except it isn't pulled towards Orkney (I assume Scandinavia) like Northern Scotland is. In my opinion, this suggests a very strong Scottish signature for this grouping - which of course makes things difficult to determine as the Scots and the Irish share a genetic legacy. Personally, I would have thought this Northern Irish grouping would have been closer to the Native Irish.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 10:19 PM
Here's the results of a recent study

https://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34177079.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/NATgen.jpg
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/bill-white/what-nationality-do-people-in-northern-ireland-think-they-are-34177095.html

There are actually 3 graphs in that article

This one is the results from the total poll, balanced and weighted to be reflective of Northern Ireland as a whole

https://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34177079.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/NATgen.jpg

This one is what Unionist voters think
https://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34177082.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/NATunionists.jpg

And this one is what the Nationalist/Republican voters think
https://cdn-02.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article34177078.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/NATnationalists.jpg

alan
01-14-2018, 10:31 PM
If I am correct the only people who use the term Northern Irish to describe themselves are from the unionist community and not the nationalist one. Also I believe that the Belfast Telegraph is a unionist newspaper which would mean that it was hardly unbiased on this matter.
It was sampled and then results split into religion groups. This is the identity result for Catholicism in Northern Ireland 20765

As you can see while over 50% of Northern Irish catholics said ‘Irish only’, 28% preferred the nuanced identity of ‘Irish and Northern irish’ . And if you add up the 3 types of catholic identity that include a Northern Ireland element it’s around 43%. This doesn’t surprise me one bit. Northern Ireland is not today totally dominated by 2 distinct segregated tribes who don’t mix or intermarry. Segregation still exists but it is largely today a feature of poor areas with high unemployment etc. Most private housing estates are mixed and your neighbour more depends on your income than ancestry or religion. There will be many mixed marriages in those circles where identifying by religion is seen as backwards. There is also a rise of a new middle of young people who think harking back to the past is holding the place back and who have no memory of the troubles NI which effectively ended over 20 years ago.

A lot of people in n Ireland don’t care about politics and the average turnout in the last handful of elections has prob been only around 55%. From books and media outsiders get the wrong impression that the population is 2 tribes in a desperate political struggle. Well reality is neatly half the population care so much they don’t bother voting!

alan
01-14-2018, 11:01 PM
But if the term Northern Irish was popular with Catholics shouldn't we see it being used by Irish Catholic newspapers such as the Irish News?

Local Politics and the media is made up mostly of old men who are mentally stuck in the troubles era and lag behind social change. Few people under 50 buy papers anymore. Don’t think I have bought one in 10ys. You mentioned the Irish news- this was seen pretty well as an SDLP paper, never popular with republicans. More for old fashioned social conservative grannies etc. Belfast Telegraph has a clear unionist slant but it was bought across the divide as it was the only evening paper and had a captive market. But getting back to it, to catholics in Northern Ireland, having a Northern Irish strand to your identity is not a political or ethnic identity. It’s more recognition of shared distinct dialect, black humour, cultural references, shared history of 100 years in the same troubled zone. Divided yes but the experience is a shared one of sorts.

alan
01-14-2018, 11:20 PM
But if the term Northern Irish was popular with Catholics shouldn't we see it being used by Irish Catholic newspapers such as the Irish News?

I think the problem is thinking there is a unified entity called Catholics or Protestants. In reality within both groups attitudes and identity will vary greatly with social class, urban/rural, whether they grew up in mixed areas or ghettos, level of education, degree of mixing and forming close friends and marriage across the divide.

alan
01-14-2018, 11:35 PM
Since the interesting topic of Northern Ireland was brought up, I think we should keep going on that subject.

The DNA Atlas has divided it into three categories, but two of them are pretty odd - especially Northern Ireland 1. NI1 is pretty hard to distinguish, as it is what looks to be an orange-red cross, close to the darker red S Wales 1.
In Ireland itself, I count only 3 NI1 markers. I count 1 in Cumbria, 4 in Northumbria, 5 in Northern England (ranging from NW England to Yorkshire areas). There's 1 in Devon, 2 around South-Central England, and 5, yes, those crosses in Kent are to my eye orange, not red, five "Northern Ireland I" markers in Kent.
That's a total of twenty NI1 markers in England vs a whopping three in Ireland. Clearly this is not a Northern Irish genetic marker at all - yet is so interesting because it looks to be found throughout Ireland and throughout England.

Now let's look at "Northern Ireland III"
I count 3 in Northern Ireland, 1 in Dublin, 1 in SW Scotland, 1 in Northumbria, 3 in Cumbria, and 1 in between the two. There's also one in Lincolnshire area. Again, the markers for this one outnumber the markers which are actually in Ireland - and it looks to be a bit spread out also, although not as much as NI1.

So "Northern Ireland I" actually looks to be an outlying British genetic marker which can't be attributed to any one specific part of Britain or Ireland, and "Northern Ireland III" looks to be more or less contained to Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Therefore, we can say that "Northern Ireland 2" is actually the only genetic marker in the Northern Ireland category which is truly representative of the Ulster-Scot genetic group, however it also looks to be found in a couple of spots in Scotland excluding the South-West, as well as in Cumbria and Northumbria.

I find it absolutely fascinating that the NI1 group is found in 5 individuals in the South-East of England, which we often assume to be one of the most Germanic or Anglo-Saxon regions.


This examination makes me re-evaluate the PCA graph:

20764

The Light Blue Squares are NI2. I have attempted to draw a dark line around their range to get a better idea of where this falls - It actually looks to be slightly closer to England than to Ireland, clustering most strongly near where the Northern Scotland grouping is, except it isn't pulled towards Orkney (I assume Scandinavia) like Northern Scotland is. In my opinion, this suggests a very strong Scottish signature for this grouping - which of course makes things difficult to determine as the Scots and the Irish share a genetic legacy. Personally, I would have thought this Northern Irish grouping would have been closer to the Native Irish.
The reality is that the very short crossings to Ireland from Kintyre, inner Hebrides, Isle of Man, ‘NW England etc can be seen in archaeological artefacts, influences and metals to have been in heavy use in most phases of Irish prehistory and pre plantation history 8000BC to 1600AD. They were deeply intwinned by migration, contact and trade in both directions. I can think of at least 16 instances of phases of clear known or implied major phases of human contact across that era and link those areas

sktibo
01-14-2018, 11:52 PM
The reality is that the very short crossings to Ireland from Kintyre, inner Hebrides, Isle of Man, ‘NW England etc can be seen in archaeological artefacts, influences and metals to have been in heavy use in most phases of Irish prehistory and pre plantation history 8000BC to 1600AD. They were deeply intwinned by migration, contact and trade in both directions. I can think of at least 16 instances of phases of clear known or implied major phases of human contact across that era and link those areas

Can you expand on that? I'd like to know exactly what you mean and how it relates to the observations I made about the categories of NI1 and NI3

alan
01-14-2018, 11:58 PM
Why does he need to prove his surname is O'Hair? Why does that matter to you?

Surname is a poor basis for inferring genetics anyway. Most of us had only 1 out of 8 great grandparents carrying our surname. If your paternal great grandfather moved to another country 100 years ago you could lierally be 7 eighths not of the gentic origin your surname implies. If the same thing happened a couple of generations earlier you could literally be 97% not of the genetic makeup is your surname suggests.

Bas
01-15-2018, 12:04 AM
So I was wondering what the experts think about haplotype donation from Ballynahatty? How much of the Irish genome actually comes from the Irish Neolithic? More then the supposed 5 to 10 percent from the Olaide BB paper in Britain?

Yeah, from what I've read recently- if I can remember correctly that is- the new Olalde paper is estimating a little bit more local neolithic input (in Britain) than what the preprint originally stated. Wish I could remember where I read that. It might have been Eurogenes. Not much more though, certainly not in the 20% range or anything like that.

On the Irish Neolithic-BA transition, I was reading this paper from 2016: The Changing Face of Neolithic and Bronze Age Ireland: A Big Data Approach to the Settlement and Burial Records. It says that although circa 3700bc the Neolithic population seemed to be thriving,with a large population estimated (Ballynahatty genome also showed she descended from a large population size, without bottlenecks) after 3500bc there was a crash in settlement (as shown by decline in pit complexes) and a complete hiatus between 3300bc and 3000bc. At 3000bc the settlement record really seems to be flatlining.

From the paper: 'Pits and spreads, which are manifest for many archaeological periods, are widely
recognized to be the result of settlement activity, as the pits contain material such as lithic
debris, pottery sherds, plant remains and animal bone'

The paper also states there is also a growth in forested areas starting 3500bc which seems to support this population decline theory. So it seems that when the first BB came into Ireland, there might not have been that many Neolithic inhabitants left.

spruithean
01-15-2018, 12:18 AM
Surname is a poor basis for inferring genetics anyway. Most of us had only 1 out of 8 great grandparents carrying our surname. If your paternal great grandfather moved to another country 100 years ago you could lierally be 7 eighths not of the gentic origin your surname implies. If the same thing happened a couple of generations earlier you could literally be 97% not of the genetic makeup is your surname suggests.

Indeed, my surname is Scottish but the overwhelming majority of my autosomal DNA matches are Dutch and Irish. I share very little of my DNA with my surname-bearing ancestor who made the journey to Canada.

alan
01-15-2018, 12:30 AM
Can you expand on that? I'd like to know exactly what you mean and how it relates to the observations I made about the categories of NI1 and NI3

Tricky to do on an iPhone :0) but here goes.
1. Early Irish Mesolithic narrow blade style of flint technology arrived 8000BC in Ireland. Only place with earlier date of this type of technology was found at Cramond in SE Scotland c 8300BC. Prob came from Scotland to NE ireland then across al Ireland

2. late Mesolithic Irish flint technology is peculiar to a ireland except Isle of Man.
3. Type of early Neolithic pottery in ireland is closest to north English
4: Irish ( Mostly Northern half) Neolithic court tombs very similar to a Clyde Cairms in Argyll
5. Porcellanite Stone axes quarried in Antrim found all along the western coast of Scotland and Hebrides. Other stuff like Antrim flint, Arran pitchstone crosses the narrow channel in small quantities as did stray Langdale axes from Cumbria
6. Grooved ware pot, passage tombs, henges, Stone and timber circle appear -all with possible origins in late Neolithic Orkney
7. Clear sustained links between the north of ireland and west of Scotland (and via the latter to north-east Scotland) in the Early Brinze Age- food vessels, possibly the flexed inhunation rite, the tradition of south-west orientated megalithic tombs and recumbent stone circle, Irish copper and gold used in Scotland.
That’s just a start 8000-1600BC

rms2
01-15-2018, 01:10 AM
Let me guess, you want to see Obama's birth certificate as well . . .

Now that might be interesting! :biggrin1:

alan
01-15-2018, 01:29 AM
Yeah, from what I've read recently- if I can remember correctly that is- the new Olalde paper is estimating a little bit more local neolithic input (in Britain) than what the preprint originally stated. Wish I could remember where I read that. It might have been Eurogenes. Not much more though, certainly not in the 20% range or anything like that.

On the Irish Neolithic-BA transition, I was reading this paper from 2016: The Changing Face of Neolithic and Bronze Age Ireland: A Big Data Approach to the Settlement and Burial Records. It says that although circa 3700bc the Neolithic population seemed to be thriving,with a large population estimated (Ballynahatty genome also showed she descended from a large population size, without bottlenecks) after 3500bc there was a crash in settlement (as shown by decline in pit complexes) and a complete hiatus between 3300bc and 3000bc. At 3000bc the settlement record really seems to be flatlining.

From the paper: 'Pits and spreads, which are manifest for many archaeological periods, are widely
recognized to be the result of settlement activity, as the pits contain material such as lithic
debris, pottery sherds, plant remains and animal bone'

The paper also states there is also a growth in forested areas starting 3500bc which seems to support this population decline theory. So it seems that when the first BB came into Ireland, there might not have been that many Neolithic inhabitants left.

There seems to have been a phase around 3000-2500BC when settlement traces became almost invisible but large regional ritual sites like super sized passage tombs, henge enclosures etc were being constructed. Almost like a last great phase of appeasing the gods during a period of climate decline. Many scholars think the beaker arrival coincides with an climate upturn which meant less wet and sunnier weather in NW Europe.

fridurich
01-15-2018, 03:39 AM
Surname is a poor basis for inferring genetics anyway. Most of us had only 1 out of 8 great grandparents carrying our surname. If your paternal great grandfather moved to another country 100 years ago you could lierally be 7 eighths not of the gentic origin your surname implies. If the same thing happened a couple of generations earlier you could literally be 97% not of the genetic makeup is your surname suggests.

What you are saying about a man having only a small portion of his autosomal DNA from his immigrant direct paternal line ancestor's surname group in the region they migrated from is true.

My direct paternal line ancestor Michael O'Hair/O'Hare came from County Down in what is now Northern Ireland. An Augusta County, Virginia court record of February 17, 1762 shows he was born in 1749. I am 5 generations from him, and a distant O'Hair cousin, who descends from a different son of Michael O'Hair than I do, is also 5 generations from him. Most of Michael's descendants today appear to be between 6 and 8 generations from him.

So, autosomally I share 63 cm with my O'Hair cousin with longest segment of 14 cm. We see right here how autosomal DNA can get thinned down fast. I am an autosomal match to many Michael O'Hair descendant cousins from at least about 7 or 8 of his children. The matches are on FTDNA, Ancestry, and Gedmatch. My aforementioned O'Hair cousin and have tested positive for YDNA haplogroup M222 at FTDNA and our kit no.s and YSTR results are on the FTDNA M222 and Subclades Project, with the link below. We both are confirmed at FTDNA for the downstream of M222 SNP called S588.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7?iframe=yresults

Both my O'Hair cousin and I tested positive at Yseq for the branch of S588 called S603. He also tested positive for S603 as a single snp test at FTDNA. My cousin took the Big Y and it revealed his novel variants. I test for 5 of his novel variants that Yseq had in stock at the time. I tested positive for 4 of them. The one I didn't test positive for, I think must have formed in his O'Hair line after the birth of our most recent common ancestor, Michael O'Hair. In the following link to the Big Tree graphic you can see my O'Hair cousin's name there. I haven't taken the Big Y. A Byrnes (O'Byrnes originally?), a Cosby, a McReynolds, and a couple of Kane/Canes (probably originally O'Cathains), and a couple of Ewings appear nearby.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2344

So, autosomally my O'Hair cousin and I must have a fraction of the original County Down O'Hare mixture. However, YDNA wise, we are very closely related to each other and we must be also to our immigrant O'Hair ancestor. Both my cousin and I are YDNA matches to an American descendant of Peter O'Hare (born about 1830 in County Down) and all three of us are YDNA matches to a Canadian descendant of Henry Hare who was born about 1774 in County Cavan. The Peter O'Hare descendant is confirmed for M222>S588 and the Henry Hare descendant is confirmed M222>S588>S603.

Also, I have Ulster Scot, Scottish, English, Welsh, German, and other Central and Northern European ancestry. I am humbled and grateful to God for the success we have had in our family research.

Kind Regards

sktibo
01-15-2018, 04:58 AM
Tricky to do on an iPhone :0) but here goes.
1. Early Irish Mesolithic narrow blade style of flint technology arrived 8000BC in Ireland. Only place with earlier date of this type of technology was found at Cramond in SE Scotland c 8300BC. Prob came from Scotland to NE ireland then across al Ireland

2. late Mesolithic Irish flint technology is peculiar to a ireland except Isle of Man.
3. Type of early Neolithic pottery in ireland is closest to north English
4: Irish ( Mostly Northern half) Neolithic court tombs very similar to a Clyde Cairms in Argyll
5. Porcellanite Stone axes quarried in Antrim found all along the western coast of Scotland and Hebrides. Other stuff like Antrim flint, Arran pitchstone crosses the narrow channel in small quantities as did stray Langdale axes from Cumbria
6. Grooved ware pot, passage tombs, henges, Stone and timber circle appear -all with possible origins in late Neolithic Orkney
7. Clear sustained links between the north of ireland and west of Scotland (and via the latter to north-east Scotland) in the Early Brinze Age- food vessels, possibly the flexed inhunation rite, the tradition of south-west orientated megalithic tombs and recumbent stone circle, Irish copper and gold used in Scotland.
That’s just a start 8000-1600BC

One that I found intriguing was the similarity of the Arras culture art of East Yorkshire with some sites in Ireland - I believe similarity was often found on the scabbards of swords, but I am going off of memory here.

While this is very interesting (and I do appreciate the info) I still don't understand what this has to do with the points I was making about the Northern Ireland 1 and 3 labels? perhaps I am misunderstanding why you quoted me? The point of my post was to show that NI1 and NI3 in the Irish DNA atlas weren't actually genetic categories that were centered on Northern Ireland, and actually appeared more common in Britain. Thus, it appears that NI2 is the only category which may actually be representative of the Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots.

avalon
01-16-2018, 03:40 PM
Since the interesting topic of Northern Ireland was brought up, I think we should keep going on that subject.

The DNA Atlas has divided it into three categories, but two of them are pretty odd - especially Northern Ireland 1. NI1 is pretty hard to distinguish, as it is what looks to be an orange-red cross, close to the darker red S Wales 1.
In Ireland itself, I count only 3 NI1 markers. I count 1 in Cumbria, 4 in Northumbria, 5 in Northern England (ranging from NW England to Yorkshire areas). There's 1 in Devon, 2 around South-Central England, and 5, yes, those crosses in Kent are to my eye orange, not red, five "Northern Ireland I" markers in Kent.
That's a total of twenty NI1 markers in England vs a whopping three in Ireland. Clearly this is not a Northern Irish genetic marker at all - yet is so interesting because it looks to be found throughout Ireland and throughout England.

Now let's look at "Northern Ireland III"
I count 3 in Northern Ireland, 1 in Dublin, 1 in SW Scotland, 1 in Northumbria, 3 in Cumbria, and 1 in between the two. There's also one in Lincolnshire area. Again, the markers for this one outnumber the markers which are actually in Ireland - and it looks to be a bit spread out also, although not as much as NI1.

So "Northern Ireland I" actually looks to be an outlying British genetic marker which can't be attributed to any one specific part of Britain or Ireland, and "Northern Ireland III" looks to be more or less contained to Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Therefore, we can say that "Northern Ireland 2" is actually the only genetic marker in the Northern Ireland category which is truly representative of the Ulster-Scot genetic group, however it also looks to be found in a couple of spots in Scotland excluding the South-West, as well as in Cumbria and Northumbria.

I find it absolutely fascinating that the NI1 group is found in 5 individuals in the South-East of England, which we often assume to be one of the most Germanic or Anglo-Saxon regions.



Some interesting observations there sktibo. Here is what the paper itself said about clusters Northern Ireland I, II and III.


Finally, we have identified groups of people in Ireland who share recent genetic history with individuals in
Britain. The three clusters (N Ireland I, II, and III) consist of Irish mainly from the north of Ireland, Scottish predominantly
from the south of Scotland, and English mainly from the north of England. This dual ancestry is also reflected
in the surnames of the Irish DNA Atlas individuals included in these clusters, who have an enrichment of both
English and Scottish surnames compared to the ‘Gaelic’ Irish clusters. Their ancestry profiles show clusters that are
midway between Ireland and Britain, which agrees with their intermediate position in our PCA. Our Globetrotter
analysis of the clusters suggests they are a result of an admixture event between Irish and British dating between the
17th and 18th centuries. This coincides with the period of the Ulster Plantations, between the 16th and 17th centuries9,
and our best fit for the source of the British component is a mixture of individuals from the centre/south of England
(England I) and the north of England (N England IV).

sktibo
01-16-2018, 06:39 PM
Some interesting observations there sktibo. Here is what the paper itself said about clusters Northern Ireland I, II and III.

Yes they are midway between Ireland and Britain, as they land on the ancestry bar graph and the PCA, however, I don't think it was appropriate to label them as Northern Irish clusters when the majority of the samples weren't on the Island of Ireland itself. Rather than look at these two strange - I want to say British Isles Wide - ancestral types as something unique or exceptional it looks like they wanted to jam them in to the Northern Ireland category when I'm not sure they were justified in doing that. Of course, it could be as they say, in that these two might have been Northern Ireland types that dispersed throughout Britain from there, but I'm not sure that is actually the case. Just because their admixture resembles something in between Britain and Ireland isn't sufficient evidence to assign them to Northern Ireland IMO, especially in the case of Northern Ireland 1 which is completely and utterly outnumbered by British samples.
Upon re-examination, I'm thinking this is a reasonable explanation for Northern Ireland 3, seeing as the other markers are in SW Scotland, Cumbria, Northumbria, and the furthest SE is Lincolnshire, which I believe is an area a lot of Scots immigrated to for work.

So, I find their explanation for Northern Ireland 3 to be reasonable, but not for Northern Ireland 1 which is found in Devon, Kent, Central England, SW England, Yorkshire, Northern Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria. It strikes me as way more likely that this type came from Britain in smaller amounts to Ireland - only one single marker which actually falls in the North of Ireland, may I add.

20862

Is NI1 really midway between Ireland and Britain? Looks to me like it is closer to Britain and is a bit shifted towards the Welsh clusters. It is actually midway between Northern England and Scotland. Looking at the dispersion throughout Ireland, one in the North, one in the South and one in Dublin, along with the dispersion throughout almost all of England, I can't help but think of the Normans - maybe they had something to do with this one?

While I cannot refute their analysis of Northern Ireland 3 (Which actually has three markers in the North of Ireland along with one in SW Scotland) Their labeling of what they refer to as Northern Ireland 1 was poorly done. Of 23 markers, only one lands in Northern Ireland. One out of twenty-three just ain't enough to label a category after that single mark.

fridurich
01-16-2018, 07:24 PM
Some interesting observations there sktibo. Here is what the paper itself said about clusters Northern Ireland I, II and III.

Isn't it intriguing that the Irish DNA Atlas project had only one or at most two DNA sampled people from Galloway in SW Scotland and only 7 or 8 from Ayrshire. I know they got their Scottish and English data from the POBI project, where, I believe each symbol represents one person.

Wouldn't it be interesting if most of the inhabited areas of Galloway (probably would be mainly coastal areas) and Ayrshire had been sampled, considering these areas used to have Gaelic spoken in them at a much later time than in probably anywhere else in the Lowlands where Gaelic was ever spoken.

Also, of interest is the one lone Ulster Irish (purple plus sign) guy in Northwest Scotland, appearing to be in Angus.

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-16-2018, 07:54 PM
Yes they are midway between Ireland and Britain, as they land on the ancestry bar graph and the PCA, however, I don't think it was appropriate to label them as Northern Irish clusters when the majority of the samples weren't on the Island of Ireland itself. Rather than look at these two strange - I want to say British Isles Wide - ancestral types as something unique or exceptional it looks like they wanted to jam them in to the Northern Ireland category when I'm not sure they were justified in doing that. Of course, it could be as they say, in that these two might have been Northern Ireland types that dispersed throughout Britain from there, but I'm not sure that is actually the case. Just because their admixture resembles something in between Britain and Ireland isn't sufficient evidence to assign them to Northern Ireland IMO, especially in the case of Northern Ireland 1 which is completely and utterly outnumbered by British samples.
Upon re-examination, I'm thinking this is a reasonable explanation for Northern Ireland 3, seeing as the other markers are in SW Scotland, Cumbria, Northumbria, and the furthest SE is Lincolnshire, which I believe is an area a lot of Scots immigrated to for work.

So, I find their explanation for Northern Ireland 3 to be reasonable, but not for Northern Ireland 1 which is found in Devon, Kent, Central England, SW England, Yorkshire, Northern Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria. It strikes me as way more likely that this type came from Britain in smaller amounts to Ireland - only one single marker which actually falls in the North of Ireland, may I add.

20862

Is NI1 really midway between Ireland and Britain? Looks to me like it is closer to Britain and is a bit shifted towards the Welsh clusters. It is actually midway between Northern England and Scotland. Looking at the dispersion throughout Ireland, one in the North, one in the South and one in Dublin, along with the dispersion throughout almost all of England, I can't help but think of the Normans - maybe they had something to do with this one?

While I cannot refute their analysis of Northern Ireland 3 (Which actually has three markers in the North of Ireland along with one in SW Scotland) Their labeling of what they refer to as Northern Ireland 1 was poorly done. Of 23 markers, only one lands in Northern Ireland. One out of twenty-three just ain't enough to label a category after that single mark.

You make some good observations. Yes, Northern Ireland I is between Ireland and England, however I too think Northern Ireland I looks shifted more to Northern Scotland, England, and Wales (at least parts of England and Wales). Also, I notice a few of the W Scotland I circles are close to some of the Northern Ireland II cluster (which we see is the biggest Planter cluster) but many/most of the W Scotland I circles are also close to some Irish clusters. The W. Scotland I cluster is also close to the Northern Ireland 3 cluster. In the IDA paper they identify W Scotland I with the Scottish Highlanders.

Kind Regards.

Anglo-Celtic
01-17-2018, 06:45 AM
interesting that you say that because scots irish term was created in the 19th century long after these people who migrated from all over ireland to the frontier , the term scots irish as we all know was created in the 19th century to differentiate between the older protestant irish and the new catholic irish from the famine its completely based on bigotry and was back up by anglo americans looking to write the irish contributions of america out of the history books ,the so called scots irish refer to themselves as nothing but irish in the records and many have clear irish surnames ,theres a very insightful book written by professor michael j o'brien from way back called, A Hidden Phase of American History : Ireland's Part in America's Struggle for Liberty in it o'brein exiamed one of the muster rolls and found some 10,000 quintessential clear irish surnames , l think the majority were native irish surnames infact . relgious propaganda is a powerful tool as we all know , could it be possible that the majority of the so called scots irish who went to the american frontier were of native irish ancestry as opposed to planter ancestry ?

I know, from my own genealogy, that this is true. Some of my Irish forebears arrived in colonial America before some of my Ulster Scottish forebears. They were frontier settlers and Revolutionary War soldiers, and they had stereotypical Irish surnames. They came from southern Irish counties too. The author is right in that their contributions are denied or downplayed. For instance, the founder of the American Navy was Irish (Barry). Washington's aide de camp was too. The Irish Old Americans married into other ethnicities over the years, and people mistakenly assume that they were Ulster Scottish (until they see their surnames).

avalon
01-17-2018, 09:14 AM
Yes they are midway between Ireland and Britain, as they land on the ancestry bar graph and the PCA, however, I don't think it was appropriate to label them as Northern Irish clusters when the majority of the samples weren't on the Island of Ireland itself. Rather than look at these two strange - I want to say British Isles Wide - ancestral types as something unique or exceptional it looks like they wanted to jam them in to the Northern Ireland category when I'm not sure they were justified in doing that. Of course, it could be as they say, in that these two might have been Northern Ireland types that dispersed throughout Britain from there, but I'm not sure that is actually the case. Just because their admixture resembles something in between Britain and Ireland isn't sufficient evidence to assign them to Northern Ireland IMO, especially in the case of Northern Ireland 1 which is completely and utterly outnumbered by British samples.
Upon re-examination, I'm thinking this is a reasonable explanation for Northern Ireland 3, seeing as the other markers are in SW Scotland, Cumbria, Northumbria, and the furthest SE is Lincolnshire, which I believe is an area a lot of Scots immigrated to for work.

So, I find their explanation for Northern Ireland 3 to be reasonable, but not for Northern Ireland 1 which is found in Devon, Kent, Central England, SW England, Yorkshire, Northern Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria. It strikes me as way more likely that this type came from Britain in smaller amounts to Ireland - only one single marker which actually falls in the North of Ireland, may I add.

Is NI1 really midway between Ireland and Britain? Looks to me like it is closer to Britain and is a bit shifted towards the Welsh clusters. It is actually midway between Northern England and Scotland. Looking at the dispersion throughout Ireland, one in the North, one in the South and one in Dublin, along with the dispersion throughout almost all of England, I can't help but think of the Normans - maybe they had something to do with this one?

While I cannot refute their analysis of Northern Ireland 3 (Which actually has three markers in the North of Ireland along with one in SW Scotland) Their labeling of what they refer to as Northern Ireland 1 was poorly done. Of 23 markers, only one lands in Northern Ireland. One out of twenty-three just ain't enough to label a category after that single mark.

Hi sktibo,

I think you're saying the same thing as the IDA although you disagree with their labelling. They have basically said that Northern Ireland clusters I,II,III are a result of the Ulster plantation and admixture from the 17th and 18th centuries, so they are attributing these clusters to British sources.

They analysed the surnames in these 3 clusters and found a higher proportion of Scottish and English surnames when compared to the Gaelic names found in the Ulster cluster, again supporting the plantation explanation.

Northern Ireland II is SW Scottish in origin and is most numerous in Northern Ireland which fits with Southern Scotland being the primary origin point for the plantation whereas N Ireland I looks to have an English origin, so reflects a much smaller impact on Northern Ireland from Southern English sources during the plantation.

Dubhthach
01-17-2018, 09:36 AM
I know, from my own genealogy, that this is true. Some of my Irish forebears arrived in colonial America before some of my Ulster Scottish forebears. They were frontier settlers and Revolutionary War soldiers, and they had stereotypical Irish surnames. They came from southern Irish counties too. The author is right in that their contributions are denied or downplayed. For instance, the founder of the American Navy was Irish (Barry). Washington's aide de camp was too. The Irish Old Americans married into other ethnicities over the years, and people mistakenly assume that they were Ulster Scottish (until they see their surnames).

Barry is a good example, as he was from Wexford, and carries a Cambro-Norman surname to boot ;)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/John_Barry_by_Gilbert_Stuart.jpg/187px-John_Barry_by_Gilbert_Stuart.jpg

In case of Southern Counties one thing to take into account is probably the North Atlantic fisheries, particulary with regards to fishery off Newfoundland. As a result you had lot of people from Cork, Waterford, Wexford ending up in North America. So much so that the Newfoundland dialect/accent basically reflects high levels of connection to South Leinster (Wexford/Kilkenny) and Waterford.

USS Barry:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/USS_Barry_DDG52.jpg/320px-USS_Barry_DDG52.jpg

sktibo
01-17-2018, 10:07 AM
Hi sktibo,

I think you're saying the same thing as the IDA although you disagree with their labelling. They have basically said that Northern Ireland clusters I,II,III are a result of the Ulster plantation and admixture from the 17th and 18th centuries, so they are attributing these clusters to British sources.

They analysed the surnames in these 3 clusters and found a higher proportion of Scottish and English surnames when compared to the Gaelic names found in the Ulster cluster, again supporting the plantation explanation.

Northern Ireland II is SW Scottish in origin and is most numerous in Northern Ireland which fits with Southern Scotland being the primary origin point for the plantation whereas N Ireland I looks to have an English origin, so reflects a much smaller impact on Northern Ireland from Southern English sources during the plantation.

I'm not sure, it definitely doesn't seem correct that they called this one Northern Ireland 1. We have one mark in Dublin, one in Southern Ireland, and one in Northern Ireland.. did the English who stuck around there immigrate fairly evenly? AFAIK the English were immigrating into Ireland well before the plantation of Northern Ireland, and with only one mark of this type in Northern Ireland and two elsewhere in Ireland I have trouble believing this one is due to the plantations. I think it's more likely a genetic hangover from earlier English settlement to Ireland, which may also line up with this cluster or type being found all over England today... It's a very interesting genetic group, for sure.

Dubhthach
01-17-2018, 10:45 AM
I imagine that 'Norther Ireland 1' might reflect an Anglo-Irish cluster. After all Dublin had a large protestant population before Independence, with parts of the county been 30-40% Protestant in 1911, likewise West Cork is well know for having a protestant community, one of it's most famous son's been the tv presenter Graham Norton.

What needs to be remember about the earliest migration in period after 1169 was there was heavy intermarriage, most of the key Cambro-Norman barons either married Irish women, or within 4 generations their desendants were on order of 50%+ Gaelic Irish in ancestry, by the time of the Tudor conquest of Ireland the 'Old English' (as historians tend to call them) were heavily Gaelicised though still regarding themselves as English (though they retained their Catholic faith in spite of reformation), in contrast the 'New English' from Tudor period onwards were Protestant in religion, which if anything probably reduced the rate of intermarriage in comparison to the 'Old English' (who had become as 'Irish as the Irish themselves')

mud of aluvion
01-17-2018, 02:44 PM
Fair enough , l partly agree the identity of ''northern irish'' is fraudulent an shouldn't really be brought up when talking about genetics or history , though its sure to offend some because of their ideology which is really what scots -irish ulster scots ,like l originally posted l think the people migrating from ireland to america should be classified and were more irish then scots/english planters , anyone interested check out the book l mentioned .

And how many planters were originally irish who migrated to northern britian from ireland during the dark ages 300AD as hiberni raiders or later scoti raiders ? but it should be easier to distinguish between planters and irish as most planters were germanic from the low lands , its the intermixing that clearly happened like it or not ! thats the problem.

mud of aluvion
01-17-2018, 04:01 PM
l think many of you have simply accepted the idea of the ulster scots which really didn't emerge until the 19th century and in certain regions in america the people dont refer to themselves as anything but irish and find the idea of being called ulster scots preposterous, this is because the ulster scots ideology never took hold in those regions in the 19th century , out of the thousands of people migrating from ireland to the frontier in the 18th century how many were of native irish background and how many were of planter background , l suspect the majority were native irish and not planter ancestry and even those of planter ancestry should not be labeled as ulster scots . of course even if the majority of ""ulster scots"" do bare native irish surnames its still not definitive of them being native irish but neither is them being protestant definitive of them being planters . and of course the intermixing problem ..

its very hard to clear the mucky waters and get a clear historically accurate picture when you have those of a certain ideology and ethnic background even in ireland, obscured by jackeens of anglo ancestry from dublin and planters from north east of ireland who are more emotionally invested in obscuring irish history in general to make themselves feel better as they feel inferior and are frightened by those they veiw as more ""pure irish"" (im sure theres a word for it) these people with that mindset or idelogy should not be dabling in irish history at all , all they do is cause complications and spout nonsensical propaganda . some of them are even taken seriously and or have purposely contributed to alot of false information on irish history , some even do it subconsciously .lve encountered many of them my self , its interesting from a psychological point of view but not if you're interested in just learning about history .

but such is life .

avalon
01-17-2018, 04:24 PM
I'm not sure, it definitely doesn't seem correct that they called this one Northern Ireland 1. We have one mark in Dublin, one in Southern Ireland, and one in Northern Ireland.. did the English who stuck around there immigrate fairly evenly? AFAIK the English were immigrating into Ireland well before the plantation of Northern Ireland, and with only one mark of this type in Northern Ireland and two elsewhere in Ireland I have trouble believing this one is due to the plantations. I think it's more likely a genetic hangover from earlier English settlement to Ireland, which may also line up with this cluster or type being found all over England today... It's a very interesting genetic group, for sure.

Yeh, tend to agree with you about the labelling of Northern Ireland I. Dubhthach is probably on the mark here. The IDA's Globetrotter analysis did date the admixture to the 17th and 18th centuries so this does look like Anglo-Irish from this period. Maybe a better label would have been "New English."

msmarjoribanks
01-17-2018, 05:01 PM
I know, from my own genealogy, that this is true. Some of my Irish forebears arrived in colonial America before some of my Ulster Scottish forebears. They were frontier settlers and Revolutionary War soldiers, and they had stereotypical Irish surnames. They came from southern Irish counties too. The author is right in that their contributions are denied or downplayed. For instance, the founder of the American Navy was Irish (Barry). Washington's aide de camp was too. The Irish Old Americans married into other ethnicities over the years, and people mistakenly assume that they were Ulster Scottish (until they see their surnames).

I know they all called themselves Irish. I tend to call mine Scots Irish because they mostly had Scottish names or at least names that aren't particularly Irish (Allen, Glass, Kirk, Patterson) or names that seem to be much more common in Ulster (Craney), and because where I've managed to trace where they came from it's Antrim (Allen, also Morewood) or Derry/Londonderry (Givins -- and that family was supposedly hardcore Presbyterian). My Kirk family was part of an Irish Quaker migration, but supposedly settled in Ireland from Yorkshire.

Seems like some people are going to be critical no matter how you refer to them, so you cannot satisfy all.

I wish I knew more about what one could learn from the various surnames (Craney being the one I am most interested in there).

I've also been quite interested in the O'Hair discussion, because O'Hare the airport is a place I have to go too frequently. (The weird reasons names intrigue me.) I wonder if any descendants of Butch or his father are part of the surname project.

Anyway, I've found this DNA Atlas really interesting and the discussion of it (and all the talks from Genetic Genealogy Ireland online, really nice).

mud of aluvion
01-17-2018, 05:56 PM
l think many have problems with the term scots irish not just because of its historical inaccuracy but also because many if not arguably the majority imo were of native irish ancestry migrating to the frontier and some of norman or french irish background also planter background or Quakers lol. like Hurcules mulligan native irish or Davy Crockett for example ;) , Crockett ancestors being french hangouts who fled to ireland due to religious persecution in bantry bay cork directly and then moved up to donegal and onto the american frontier . why do so many if not the majority of so called american scots irish bare irish surnames as shown in the muster rolls as opposed to those in northern Irelands current population who bare mostly English and Scottish surnames ?

l always found it odd why so many in the republic are not as fascinated by these irish frontiersmen as those in northern ireland but that could be because of the ulster scots ideology .

l think out of the 12 irish signatures on the decoration of independence 7 were undeniably irish , and 2 were scottish and 3 were welsh or english .
irish examples being ,Thomas Lynch Jr. James Smith anglicized from MacGabhann. Matthew Thornton anglicized from Mac Sceacháin. obviously charles O''carroll ,ect .

many have tried to tie the protestant religion with ulster planters its utterly ludicrous line of thinking imo .okay surnames are not often the best way of indicating ancestry but religion is most certainly not a indicator of ancestry period .

sktibo
01-17-2018, 07:08 PM
Yeh, tend to agree with you about the labelling of Northern Ireland I. Dubhthach is probably on the mark here. The IDA's Globetrotter analysis did date the admixture to the 17th and 18th centuries so this does look like Anglo-Irish from this period. Maybe a better label would have been "New English."

As it looks like most of the people in this group didn't go to Ireland, I think I'd just call it England 2 or something.. England 1 is found throughout England just less frequently, and it so happens that some of this NI1 group made it to Ireland, and I can accept that those might well be representing some Anglo-Irish.
I would have liked to see the write up say something more like "We found an English genetic signature infrequently through Ireland, within Ireland this is probably an Anglo-Irish marker" instead of telling us there are three types of Northern Irish. Does it show us then that there was relatively very little immigration to Ireland from England?

Above all else what I really want to know about these is why five of these markers are in Kent - a place which I see as far more Anglo-Saxon and continental than other parts of England. Does the fact that these markers are found there mean perhaps we were missing something about this region?


I know they all called themselves Irish. I tend to call mine Scots Irish because they mostly had Scottish names or at least names that aren't particularly Irish (Allen, Glass, Kirk, Patterson) or names that seem to be much more common in Ulster (Craney), and because where I've managed to trace where they came from it's Antrim (Allen, also Morewood) or Derry/Londonderry (Givins -- and that family was supposedly hardcore Presbyterian). My Kirk family was part of an Irish Quaker migration, but supposedly settled in Ireland from Yorkshire.

Seems like some people are going to be critical no matter how you refer to them, so you cannot satisfy all.

I wish I knew more about what one could learn from the various surnames (Craney being the one I am most interested in there).

I've also been quite interested in the O'Hair discussion, because O'Hare the airport is a place I have to go too frequently. (The weird reasons names intrigue me.) I wonder if any descendants of Butch or his father are part of the surname project.

Anyway, I've found this DNA Atlas really interesting and the discussion of it (and all the talks from Genetic Genealogy Ireland online, really nice).

My Scotch-Irish ancestors called themselves Irish, to the point where when initially researching my genealogy my family thought they were all just native Irish. However, the censuses I found indicate that most of them saw themselves as Scottish - written "Scotch" and even those who wrote Irish for nationality still listed Scotch as their ethnic origins. The surnames all point to Scotland as well, and some of them turned out to be rather recent immigrants from Scotland who didn't actually stay in Ireland all that long.

So, Scotch-Irish or Scots Irish are the labels I use for them - looks like you and I both have similar (and good) reasoning for doing this! It helps that I can say Scotch-Irish and people generally understand what I mean when I use that term too.

CillKenny
01-17-2018, 07:22 PM
I was not so surprised by the eastern Ulster results as we have a lot of historical context and the dates seem to line up. The strong Norwegian link was a surprise. I found the 7 Gaelic groups interesting as these go back much further in time and seem to show three basic groups (Munster, Ulster and the rest) that get further refined over time. I am still waiting for the experts to comment on how this all aligns up with what has come down to us from the times before history was written down contemporaneously.

fridurich
01-17-2018, 10:50 PM
I imagine that 'Norther Ireland 1' might reflect an Anglo-Irish cluster. After all Dublin had a large protestant population before Independence, with parts of the county been 30-40% Protestant in 1911, likewise West Cork is well know for having a protestant community, one of it's most famous son's been the tv presenter Graham Norton.

What needs to be remember about the earliest migration in period after 1169 was there was heavy intermarriage, most of the key Cambro-Norman barons either married Irish women, or within 4 generations their desendants were on order of 50%+ Gaelic Irish in ancestry, by the time of the Tudor conquest of Ireland the 'Old English' (as historians tend to call them) were heavily Gaelicised though still regarding themselves as English (though they retained their Catholic faith in spite of reformation), in contrast the 'New English' from Tudor period onwards were Protestant in religion, which if anything probably reduced the rate of intermarriage in comparison to the 'Old English' (who had become as 'Irish as the Irish themselves')

You make a good point about the heavy intermarriage of the Gaelic Irish with the Normans. In the Irish DNA Atlas results article, their analysis of the three Northern Ireland Planter clusters was that it happened some time or times during the 17th and 18th centuries (I agree that is when most of it happened). However, in the next to last paragraph under "Discussion" they appear to indicate that some of the gene flow they are counting as mixture between Gaelic Irish and Planters in Ulster could have occurred by gene flow from Britain to Ulster, or vice versa, before the time of the Plantations.

So, admixture between Normans and their retinue and the Gaelic Irish in Ulster would be, as you know, well before Plantation times. I don't think there were great numbers of Normans in Ulster, but over the centuries, the Normans that admixed with Irish there could have many descendants today. The authors mention the Gallowglass mercenaries from Scotland who came to Ulster, but obviously there was probably many instances of pre-Plantation admixture between those who would be called British today, and native Irish.

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-17-2018, 11:10 PM
Fair enough , l partly agree the identity of ''northern irish'' is fraudulent an shouldn't really be brought up when talking about genetics or history , though its sure to offend some because of their ideology which is really what scots -irish ulster scots ,like l originally posted l think the people migrating from ireland to america should be classified and were more irish then scots/english planters , anyone interested check out the book l mentioned .

And how many planters were originally irish who migrated to northern britian from ireland during the dark ages 300AD as hiberni raiders or later scoti raiders ? but it should be easier to distinguish between planters and irish as most planters were germanic from the low lands , its the intermixing that clearly happened like it or not ! thats the problem.

If I understand you right, you seem to be saying that some of the Planters to Ulster could be descended from Irish who migrated to Northern Britain during early Medieval times, and whose descendants came back as some of the Planters. I have to agree with that, but add that some of the Irish or Norse Gaels could have immigrated to Galloway, say from 600 A D. to about 1000 A. D. Look at Galloway in Southwest Scotland and and to some extant Ayrshire with their background of Norse Gaelic and Irish invaders in the past. I think some of these would return centuries later to Ulster as Planters, but by that time, I think they probably had admixture with Normans, Angles, Saxons, and Brythonic Celts in Galloway. I don't think the majority of the Planters came from Galloway/Ayrshire, but I think a large portion of them did.

Although the Planters from the more Anglo Saxon settled southeast of Scotland and elsewhere certainly had a significant, if not large amounts, of Germanic blood, the POBI study, I believe showed that almost all regions of Britain have significant, if not large amounts of Celtic ancestry.

Kind Regards.

Anglo-Celtic
01-18-2018, 12:14 AM
Barry is a good example, as he was from Wexford, and carries a Cambro-Norman surname to boot ;)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/John_Barry_by_Gilbert_Stuart.jpg/187px-John_Barry_by_Gilbert_Stuart.jpg


The same holds true for Washington's aide de camp. He was a Fitzgerald. My ancestor was too. He was a Revolutionary War soldier and an American frontier settler.

Anglo-Celtic
01-18-2018, 12:20 AM
Fair enough , l partly agree the identity of ''northern irish'' is fraudulent an shouldn't really be brought up when talking about genetics or history , though its sure to offend some because of their ideology which is really what scots -irish ulster scots ,like l originally posted l think the people migrating from ireland to america should be classified and were more irish then scots/english planters , anyone interested check out the book l mentioned .

And how many planters were originally irish who migrated to northern britian from ireland during the dark ages 300AD as hiberni raiders or later scoti raiders ? but it should be easier to distinguish between planters and irish as most planters were germanic from the low lands , its the intermixing that clearly happened like it or not ! thats the problem.

You sound familiar. Anyway, not all Scots-Irish were Germanic, and not all Lowlanders were Germanic. There was a divide between the eastern lowlands and the western lowlands, and the former was less "Celtic" than the latter. Genetics, as well as history, demonstrate this truism.

Anglo-Celtic
01-18-2018, 12:31 AM
I know they all called themselves Irish. I tend to call mine Scots Irish because they mostly had Scottish names or at least names that aren't particularly Irish (Allen, Glass, Kirk, Patterson) or names that seem to be much more common in Ulster (Craney), and because where I've managed to trace where they came from it's Antrim (Allen, also Morewood) or Derry/Londonderry (Givins -- and that family was supposedly hardcore Presbyterian). My Kirk family was part of an Irish Quaker migration, but supposedly settled in Ireland from Yorkshire.

Seems like some people are going to be critical no matter how you refer to them, so you cannot satisfy all.

I wish I knew more about what one could learn from the various surnames (Craney being the one I am most interested in there).

I've also been quite interested in the O'Hair discussion, because O'Hare the airport is a place I have to go too frequently. (The weird reasons names intrigue me.) I wonder if any descendants of Butch or his father are part of the surname project.

Anyway, I've found this DNA Atlas really interesting and the discussion of it (and all the talks from Genetic Genealogy Ireland online, really nice).

I take great pains to differentiate the various groups in Ireland. I'm talking about Native Irish forebears. They're not planters or settlers from England or Scotland. Their Irish roots precede the 1600s. Many of them have distinct Irish surnames too. I realize that the Ulster Scottish, who were in far greater numbers during the colonial era to the 1840s, referred to themselves as Irish with no hyphen. I just think that it's a shame that the Native Irish presence, in the early American historical era, seems to be ignored. It's like how the Scots-Irish are put to the side post-1840.

alan
01-18-2018, 12:51 AM
I take great pains to differentiate the various groups in Ireland. I'm talking about Native Irish forebears. They're not planters or settlers from England or Scotland. Their Irish roots precede the 1600s. Many of them have distinct Irish surnames too. I realize that the Ulster Scottish, who were in far greater numbers during the colonial era to the 1840s, referred to themselves as Irish with no hyphen. I just think that it's a shame that the Native Irish presence, in the early American historical era, seems to be ignored. It's like how the Scots-Irish are put to the side post-1840.
I think the reasons is a lot of people like simple black and white versions of history rather than the much more complex reality.

sktibo
01-18-2018, 01:51 AM
You sound familiar. Anyway, not all Scots-Irish were Germanic, and not all Lowlanders were Germanic. There was a divide between the eastern lowlands and the western lowlands, and the former was less "Celtic" than the latter. Genetics, as well as history, demonstrate this truism.

If the POBI is correct, the Southeastern Scots and even the English are mostly derived from Celtic stock... what is surprising to me is that we have seen people who have had a problem with this discovery, wanting to put groups of people into a "Bad guy" Anglo-Saxon category and a "Good guy" Celtic category. Fortunately the reality is much more complex and much more interesting, to echo Alan's statement

fridurich
01-18-2018, 02:39 AM
I know they all called themselves Irish. I tend to call mine Scots Irish because they mostly had Scottish names or at least names that aren't particularly Irish (Allen, Glass, Kirk, Patterson) or names that seem to be much more common in Ulster (Craney), and because where I've managed to trace where they came from it's Antrim (Allen, also Morewood) or Derry/Londonderry (Givins -- and that family was supposedly hardcore Presbyterian). My Kirk family was part of an Irish Quaker migration, but supposedly settled in Ireland from Yorkshire.

Seems like some people are going to be critical no matter how you refer to them, so you cannot satisfy all.

I wish I knew more about what one could learn from the various surnames (Craney being the one I am most interested in there).

I've also been quite interested in the O'Hair discussion, because O'Hare the airport is a place I have to go too frequently. (The weird reasons names intrigue me.) I wonder if any descendants of Butch or his father are part of the surname project.

Anyway, I've found this DNA Atlas really interesting and the discussion of it (and all the talks from Genetic Genealogy Ireland online, really nice).

Thanks for you interest in my surname. My surname is spelled O'Hair, but my immigrant ancestor Michael O'Hair, had various people spell it different ways including O'Hare (probably the way it was spelled in Ireland). On his tombstone his name is spelled simply Ohare.

Now concerning Edward (Butch) O'Hare, I don't know if I'm related to him. If you have seen photos of him, he looks like he could be a movie star, his looks kind of remind me of Audie Murphy, who was the most decorated U.S. soldier of World War II. (After the war Audie became a movie star.) During World War II, Butch O'Hare single-handedly took on a whole squadron of Japanese Bombers by himself. Even though he had limited ammunition, he managed to shoot down several and damage some. He died in World War II and left no sons. Butch's father, Edward Joseph O'Hare (Easy Eddie) was a lawyer who worked with mobster leader Al Capone for a while. It appears that Capone had Edward O'Hare killed. Edward Joseph O'Hare had only one son, Butch.

Edward Joseph O'Hare was son of Patrick Joseph O'Hair and Cecelia Ellen Malloy. Patrick and Cecelia appear to be children of Irish immigrants. I have researched Butch O'Hares line and it is hard to go far. His father, Edward Joseph O'Hare appears to be the only son of Patrick Joseph O'Hare. I can't remember if I've seen the names of Patrick Joseph O'Hare's parents.

So we have no known living male O'Hare relative of Butch yet. To find any, it appears we would have to find male O'Hare descendants of Patrick Joseph O'Hare. If Patrick had only Edward Joseph O'Hare for his son, then we would need to find out who Patrick's father was and see if there are any male O'Hare descendants from him. I have wanted to find O'Hares related to Butch and see if they would do a YDNA test. Amazon.com has a book about Butch O'Hare

https://www.amazon.com/Fateful-Rendezvous-Butch-OHare-Bluejacket/dp/1591142490/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516239716&sr=8-1&keywords=Butch+O%27Hare

In Ireland/N. Ireland, to me there appear to be two main groups of O'Hares, those in County Clare and the other group in Ulster, concentrated in Counties Armagh and Down. However, YDNA testing appears to show more than one sept of Ulster O'Hares. In a 2005 DNA study involving Irish surnames by Dr. Dan Bradley and Brian McEvoy they tested a lot of Irish surnames including some in Ulster. This may have been before the presence of YDNA haplogroup M222 was discovered. Looking at key Y-STR markers that are predictive for M222, it appears that out of 19 O'Hares tested, that 11 are likely positive for M222. Out of the group of 19, 16 were from Ulster. Out of those 16, it appears that 8 are likely M222. Two O'Hares likely for M222 were from Leinster and one likely for it had no location given. No counties were given for participants, but considering the large number of O'Hares in Counties Armagh and Down, it seems likely that is where most of the Ulster O'Hares were from.

I am confirmed for M222...>S588>S603 as is my distant O'Hair cousin. I have already mentioned the descendant of Peter O'Hare of County Down and the descendant of Henry Hare of County Cavan who are M222 YDNA matches to us. Peter's descendant is positive for S588 and Henry's descendant is confirmed for S588>S603. There is a descendant of Hugh O'Hare of County Down born about 1800 who is confirmed to be haplogroup DF41, different from M222. Another O'Hare from County Down who has recently tested looks likely to be DF41.

The Ulster O'Hares are said to be related to the O'Hanlons. In the study I mentioned, 13 O'Hanlons were tested and only 2 appear likely for M222. Also, S588 appears to have quite a number of Ui Neill surnames in it. However, I haven't heard of O'Hares being associated with the Ui Neill. However, maybe some old annals were lost or destroyed. If I remember right, the clan name for the O'Hares and O'Hanlons of Ulster was supposed to be the Ua Niuallain, or something like that, but that's not the same as the Ui Neill. John O'Hart, who some say didn't question the authenticity of the data he found or was told good enough, has the Ulster O'Hirs being a branch of the Leitrim MacRannall family. O'Hart seems to be using Farrell's "Linea Antiqua" for that information.

So, that is kind of it in a nutshell concerning Butch O'Hare and the O'Hares of Ulster. If anyone else knows more, please contribute.

Kind Regards

msmarjoribanks
01-18-2018, 05:19 AM
I take great pains to differentiate the various groups in Ireland. I'm talking about Native Irish forebears. They're not planters or settlers from England or Scotland. Their Irish roots precede the 1600s. Many of them have distinct Irish surnames too. I realize that the Ulster Scottish, who were in far greater numbers during the colonial era to the 1840s, referred to themselves as Irish with no hyphen. I just think that it's a shame that the Native Irish presence, in the early American historical era, seems to be ignored. It's like how the Scots-Irish are put to the side post-1840.

That makes sense. I was in part referring to this idea (not expressed by you) that "Scots Irish" is always a misnomer.

Problem in the US, traditionally, it often refers to a particular time-period, culture, settlement pattern, and Protestantism, and not actual ancestral roots (but ancestral roots are always complicated because people are mixed). Agree it's often technically not accurate.

I felt a bit like some were saying "the term Scots Irish is just a snotty attempt to differentiate people who called themselves Irish from later Irish" (which may have been the case at the time, but it's not like "Scotch Irish" itself wasn't used in a derogatory way), and others were saying that the Scots Irish aren't really Irish, which was just making me feel like whatever term I use I get told I'm wrong. No big deal, but that's why I spelled out what I used.

Culturally, though, my Givins (Gaelic Irish name, I think) and Glass (more likely to be Scottish in this context, I think) intermarried, came from the same area, probably, and had the same migration patterns in the US (VA, KY, southern IL, and then up into central IL and west), and both would have called themselves Irish when they came to America. To me it's now interesting to be able to speculate about older origins (and I wish I had someone to encourage to test for Y-DNA, maybe someday), but I don't think I would distinguish them within the US based on surname origin, such that one would be really "Irish" and one would be really "Scots Irish." I'm open to changing my mind on this, I don't really care much, but I don't think using one term or the other makes you simplistic or clearly wrong or whatever.

Dubhthach
01-18-2018, 11:42 AM
You make a good point about the heavy intermarriage of the Gaelic Irish with the Normans. In the Irish DNA Atlas results article, their analysis of the three Northern Ireland Planter clusters was that it happened some time or times during the 17th and 18th centuries (I agree that is when most of it happened). However, in the next to last paragraph under "Discussion" they appear to indicate that some of the gene flow they are counting as mixture between Gaelic Irish and Planters in Ulster could have occurred by gene flow from Britain to Ulster, or vice versa, before the time of the Plantations.

So, admixture between Normans and their retinue and the Gaelic Irish in Ulster would be, as you know, well before Plantation times. I don't think there were great numbers of Normans in Ulster, but over the centuries, the Normans that admixed with Irish there could have many descendants today. The authors mention the Gallowglass mercenaries from Scotland who came to Ulster, but obviously there was probably many instances of pre-Plantation admixture between those who would be called British today, and native Irish.

Kind Regards

Well the problem is that there data is purely based on modern samples, though obviously given the 8 x Great-Grandparents been from same geographic region in sense they give us a snapshot of genetic diversity in Ireland in the 1840's. I imagine if the criteria was looser that you would see that there has been some changes here even in last 150 years (Dublin for example has had massive population inflow, as is typical of any capital city)

anyways what we must remember is that the 'Ulster Gaelic Irish' cluster is the most distinct from the three 'Planter clusters', in case of Gallowglasses these were speakers of Middle Irish/Early Modern Irish, who though coming form Hebrides were of Gaelic culture, though the rather interesting hybrid of 'Gall-ghaeil' (Norse-Gael). As a result they completely assimilated into Irish society, after all they were Gael though not form Ireland, as a result like the Cambro-Normans they heavily intermarried, but leaving aside intermarriage it's probable that given they were already Gael before coming to Ireland that they would have had strong affinities genetically with the Gaelic Irish (perhaps this is echo in the PoBI cluster spanning Ulster/Highlands). Sweeney for example is prime example of a Gallowglass name, you even find it among Travellers. Personally I think they are a good vector for any Norse input into broader irish population.

The main issue we really have at the moment is lack of late Iron age/early medieval aDNA genomes which could be used as a baseline. We do have obviously Iron age genomes from Britain (Hinxton, York etc.) + Anglo-Saxon period genomes, what we really need is Iron Age/Early Christian genomes from Ireland (pre-Viking period) plus Iron-age/Viking period genomes from Scandinavia. This would allow us to model admixture modern irish population using a valid baseline.

It would also give us a baseline for level of admixture post 1169 and post 1540 in particular.

avalon
01-18-2018, 07:01 PM
As it looks like most of the people in this group didn't go to Ireland, I think I'd just call it England 2 or something.. England 1 is found throughout England just less frequently, and it so happens that some of this NI1 group made it to Ireland, and I can accept that those might well be representing some Anglo-Irish.
I would have liked to see the write up say something more like "We found an English genetic signature infrequently through Ireland, within Ireland this is probably an Anglo-Irish marker" instead of telling us there are three types of Northern Irish. Does it show us then that there was relatively very little immigration to Ireland from England?

Above all else what I really want to know about these is why five of these markers are in Kent - a place which I see as far more Anglo-Saxon and continental than other parts of England. Does the fact that these markers are found there mean perhaps we were missing something about this region?


Yes, on reflection this N Ireland I cluster is intruiging. On the PCA it is situated near to the other N Ireland clusters so this is probably why they labelled it N Ireland but yes most of the samples are from various places in England, such as Kent, Lancashire, Yorkshire and even Devon - quite spread out!

Total guess from me but it could be something along the lines of - some English aristocrat in the 1600s is granted land/plantation in Ireland and settles it there with people from his own estate and/or his own family ,etc, eg from Kent. With the English aristocracy I think this is often how it worked. Lord or Earl such and such owns land and estates all over the place, in England, in Ireland, so I can visualise quite a lot of mobility within England to and from estates and also to and from Ireland. I think the English upper classes have for much of history been quite mobile and since the Norman conquest they have pretty much owned all the land.

Dubhthach
01-18-2018, 09:31 PM
isn't it a case though that these clusters were derived via finestructure analysis, ergo their position on PCA (it's PC1 chart as far as I know) might not be relevant to how they generated these clusters. in PC1 they might overlap but it would be interesting to see PC3 generated chart. even better if represented in 3d!
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pgMAHiIWvuw/Tql5HIXNdRI/AAAAAAAABLI/I2zPF5cLRwQ/s1600/clust.gif

Dewsloth
01-18-2018, 10:42 PM
Yes, on reflection this N Ireland I cluster is intruiging. On the PCA it is situated near to the other N Ireland clusters so this is probably why they labelled it N Ireland but yes most of the samples are from various places in England, such as Kent, Lancashire, Yorkshire and even Devon - quite spread out!

Total guess from me but it could be something along the lines of - some English aristocrat in the 1600s is granted land/plantation in Ireland and settles it there with people from his own estate and/or his own family ,etc, eg from Kent. With the English aristocracy I think this is often how it worked. Lord or Earl such and such owns land and estates all over the place, in England, in Ireland, so I can visualise quite a lot of mobility within England to and from estates and also to and from Ireland. I think the English upper classes have for much of history been quite mobile and since the Norman conquest they have pretty much owned all the land.

I have some ancestors that sort of fit that description (not Kent, but I imagine they weren't the only family in such a situation) -- they arrived in North America in the 17th and 18th century from Ireland, but iirc their families had just been in Ireland a few generations.
Example: My 7th Great Grandmother Anne "Nan" Swift born in Greencastle, County Down, N. Ireland and was a first cousin of the satirist Jonathan Swift, and it seems the whole Swift family picked up and left England for Ireland in the 1600s:


Jonathan Swift was born on 30 November 1667 in Dublin, Ireland. He was the second child and only son of Jonathan Swift (1640–1667) and his wife Abigail Erick (or Herrick) of Frisby on the Wreake.[4] His father was a native of Goodrich, Herefordshire, but he accompanied his brothers to Ireland to seek their fortunes in law after their Royalist father's estate was brought to ruin during the English Civil War. His maternal grandfather, James Ericke, was the vicar of Thornton, England. In 1634 the vicar was convicted of Puritan practices. Some time thereafter, Ericke and his family, including his young daughter Abilgail, fled to Ireland.[5]

Swift's father joined his older brother, Godwin, in the practice of law in Ireland.[6] He died in Dublin about seven months before he his namesake was born.

Nan's daughter apparently eloped to Virginia in the early 1700s.

Govan
01-18-2018, 11:49 PM
You descend from the Anglo-Irish without knowing, like a alot of Americans. I am also a descandant of the Swift family that came to Ireland.
If you exclude my Ulster Quaker ancestry (from Northumberia and Yorkshire including the Kirk/Hoope twin family from Yorkshire of which an American just mentioned descending from) alot of my noble landowner English ancestors came from Southern England (Kent , London , Somsert , Oxford ,Whiltshire etc) .

alan
01-18-2018, 11:58 PM
Can someone post a link to any info and discussion on the ulster Gaelic cluster?

Govan
01-19-2018, 12:24 AM
I imagine that 'Norther Ireland 1' might reflect an Anglo-Irish cluster. After all Dublin had a large protestant population before Independence, with parts of the county been 30-40% Protestant in 1911, likewise West Cork is well know for having a protestant community, one of it's most famous son's been the tv presenter Graham Norton.

Interresting. I have Anglo-Irish ancestry from Cork and it is part German Palatinate. What is left of the Germans of Cork?

Govan
01-19-2018, 12:31 AM
l think many of you have simply accepted the idea of the ulster scots which really didn't emerge until the 19th century and in certain regions in america the people dont refer to themselves as anything but irish and find the idea of being called ulster scots preposterous, this is because the ulster scots ideology never took hold in those regions in the 19th century , out of the thousands of people migrating from ireland to the frontier in the 18th century how many were of native irish background and how many were of planter background , l suspect the majority were native irish and not planter ancestry and even those of planter ancestry should not be labeled as ulster scots . of course even if the majority of ""ulster scots"" do bare native irish surnames its still not definitive of them being native irish but neither is them being protestant definitive of them being planters . and of course the intermixing problem .. j

its very hard to clear the mucky waters and get a clear historically accurate picture when you have those of a certain ideology and ethnic background even in ireland, obscured by jackeens of anglo ancestry from dublin and planters from north east of ireland who are more emotionally invested in obscuring irish ju history in general to make themselves feel better as they feel inferior and are frightened by those they veiw as more ""pure irish"" (im sure theres a word for it) these people with that mindset or idelogy should not be dabling in irish history at all , all they do is cause complications and spout nonsensical propaganda . some of them are even taken seriously and or have purposely contributed to alot of false information on irish history , some even do it subconsciously .lve encountered many of them my self , its interesting from a psychological point of view but not if you're interested in just learning about history .

but such is life .

Irish migration towards was continuous throughout USA History. You had peaks of Ulster protestant and peaks of Catholic Gaels but Catholic Gaels migrated very early to the USA in great numbers , already Southern states had many rich Irish , and you can see it through some African Americans carrying typical Gaelic names.

sktibo
01-19-2018, 04:11 AM
Can someone post a link to any info and discussion on the ulster Gaelic cluster?

This isn't a link to any discussion on it but your request made me think of a couple of things which I've been meaning to discuss on the topic of the Ulster Gaelic cluster:

It looks like this cluster was significantly influenced by the western Gaelic Scots - indeed I think most of us here discussing this would have read about the connections between Ulster and the western Scots, especially those tied to the Lordship of the Isles. Depending on how significant this connection between Ulster and West Scotland was genetically, I think one possibility is that the connection between Ulster and the Gaelic Scots increased the levels of Indigenous Gaelic DNA rather than decreasing them.
This takes me to the West Scotland category, which I notice is primarily sampled from Islay and Argyll - both places in which I remember reading that the Campbells and their allies displaced the MacDonalds and theirs after the fall of the Lordship of the Isles. The other Hebridean samples are on North Uist and on Lewis which are to my memory Protestant rather than Catholic Hebridean areas. What I would like to see is some sampling from Barra, South Uist, Skye, even Benbecula. We need to get those remaining MacDonalds tested. Previously I would have thought for sure the Irish clusters would be "more Gaelic" than the Western Scots, and perhaps they are, but I don't think it is a certainty given which parts of Scotland were sampled. I think there's a chance we might see a very strong indigenous Gaelic result from some other, better selected islands and locations in Scotland's west - either that or we would get a bunch of Purple crosses in these other areas instead of Green squares.

It's also extremely interesting that the Ulster purple crosses are so frequent on the border of Ulster and Leinster, I thought they would have been almost exclusively found in Donegal.

I know it has been mentioned before but I'll bring it up here: How about that lone Ulster marker in Eastern Scotland? I feel like it is teasing me about the fact that the entire center of Scotland hasn't been sampled at all.

Saetro
01-19-2018, 05:05 AM
I know it has been mentioned before but I'll bring it up here: How about that lone Ulster marker in Eastern Scotland? I feel like it is teasing me about the fact that the entire center of Scotland hasn't been sampled at all.
They say that they have been out sampling Scots.
The centre of Scotland was largely cleared, so it can be hard to find enough people to test with the right continuous connection to one place.
My initial response was: "Should try harder"
They said they were going to.
Should have had the results by about now, or are they only providing them to LivingDNA customers?

Dubhthach
01-19-2018, 10:33 AM
I'm not sure I follow the logic that 'Ulster Gaelic cluster' would be rare on border of Ulster (9 counties) and what we now call Leinster. After all that area is majority Catholic to this day:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/Scaoileadh_Creidimhin_in_UlaidhReligious_Division_ of_Ulster.jpg


Percentage of Protestants in each electoral division in Ulster, based on census figures from 2001 (UK) and 2006 (ROI).
0-10% dark green, 10-30% mid-green,
30-50% light green, 50-70% light orange,
70-90% mid-orange, 90-100% dark orange.

Electoral division/ward is quite a small geographical division.

Here is a map of just the North showing the Electoral wards which gives you idea of how fine-grained they are compared to traditional counties:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14904607613_58d63b8d4d_o.jpg

http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/images/mapping-ulster-scots-2.jpg

The Irish language persisted in several parts of Ulster/Leinster 'borderlands' well into the 19th century, the last native speakers in for example County Louth (which historically was part of the province of Ulster) only died in the 1940's. Their dialect was a 'east-ulster' dialect that represented the speech in wider Louth/Monaghan/South Armagh/South Down region (Oirialla -- from Aírgialla)

What we should remember of course is that 'North Leinster' use to make up the province of Meath, which was ruled by the Southern Uí Néill, as a result it should show a combination of connections to Ulster as well as to Connacht which would match both political and dialectical features of Ireland north of line from Galway to Dublin.

avalon
01-19-2018, 02:13 PM
isn't it a case though that these clusters were derived via finestructure analysis, ergo their position on PCA (it's PC1 chart as far as I know) might not be relevant to how they generated these clusters. in PC1 they might overlap but it would be interesting to see PC3 generated chart. even better if represented in 3d!
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pgMAHiIWvuw/Tql5HIXNdRI/AAAAAAAABLI/I2zPF5cLRwQ/s1600/clust.gif

It looks like IDA just did PC1 v PC2 so yeh with further analysis I wonder If the NI 1 cluster might separate from the other NI clusters.

Interestingly, the other paper that came out at the same time from Trinity College did do analysis from PC1, PC2, PC3, PC4 but they used a different dataset and their clusters had different labels to IDA.

mud of aluvion
01-19-2018, 03:01 PM
l do ? eh l meant most were as in the majority , not to stir the pot here but l have my gripes with the term scots - irish being used for these people in a historical context , they considered themselves nothing but irish even those of planter ancestry never once did they refer to themselves as anything but irish .99% of them saw themselves as only irish .alot of them bare irish surnames and most intermixed with the irish population .

mud of aluvion
01-19-2018, 03:32 PM
lm not saying they were all germanic just the bulk of them and those had intermixed with the irish despite the scottish king james best attempts to prevent it , even if they were not genetically germanic for the most part , they still were culturally germanic which is clear by the ulster scots dialect which exists in Northern ireland .but l completely agree its much more complex then the ulster scots ideology would have you to believe which was my point .

thanks for the post .

sktibo
01-19-2018, 06:33 PM
I'm not sure I follow the logic that 'Ulster Gaelic cluster' would be rare on border of Ulster (9 counties) and what we now call Leinster. After all that area is majority Catholic to this day:


My statement that the Ulster cluster would be rare on the border wasn't a researched statement - I just thought that western Donegal would have formed its own cluster based on the geography, this isn't really based on anything else as this is not an area I am knowledgeable in or have researched. When I came to this forum I was under the impression that Connacht was possibly the "Most Irish" part of Ireland. Most of the small amounts of serious research and study I have done is prior to the year 1000 when it comes to Ireland.
Very interesting that this area is so Catholic to this day, and that the DNA results appear to reflect that!

sktibo
01-19-2018, 06:43 PM
l do ? eh l meant most were as in the majority , not to stir the pot here but l have my gripes with the term scots - irish being used for these people in a historical context , they considered themselves nothing but irish even those of planter ancestry never once did they refer to themselves as anything but irish .99% of them saw themselves as only irish .alot of them bare irish surnames and most intermixed with the irish population .

I posted previously about how my Scotch-Irish ancestors referred to themselves as Irish, at least recently, which resulted in my family thinking we were part Native Irish, but it turned out that all (that I am able to trace back far enough) of our ancestors from Ireland were ethnically Scottish. It looks like they considered themselves Scottish at first, then as time went on they considered themselves to be as you say, only Irish, but I like to use the term Scotch-Irish so that people know what I'm talking about as it's way easier than saying something like "people who lived in Ireland originally coming from Scotland who considered themselves Irish but weren't native to Ireland" and it is such a widely used term that in a conversation about genealogy people will immediately know what I am talking about. I don't use "Northern Irish" because I am not sure that all of them lived in Northern Ireland, but I am sure that all of them or almost all of them were ethnically Scottish.

FionnSneachta
01-19-2018, 08:38 PM
I posted previously about how my Scotch-Irish ancestors referred to themselves as Irish, at least recently, which resulted in my family thinking we were part Native Irish, but it turned out that all (that I am able to trace back far enough) of our ancestors from Ireland were ethnically Scottish. It looks like they considered themselves Scottish at first, then as time went on they considered themselves to be as you say, only Irish, but I like to use the term Scotch-Irish so that people know what I'm talking about as it's way easier than saying something like "people who lived in Ireland originally coming from Scotland who considered themselves Irish but weren't native to Ireland" and it is such a widely used term that in a conversation about genealogy people will immediately know what I am talking about. I don't use "Northern Irish" because I am not sure that all of them lived in Northern Ireland, but I am sure that all of them or almost all of them were ethnically Scottish.

To me using Scotch-Irish is like using Anglo-Irish to describe families originally from England living in Ireland so I personally don't have any issue with the term being used anyway.

Anglo-Celtic
01-20-2018, 12:43 AM
I think the reasons is a lot of people like simple black and white versions of history rather than the much more complex reality.

That's especially true with this subject. Conventional wisdom is seen as a sacred cow that must not be questioned.

Anglo-Celtic
01-20-2018, 12:53 AM
If the POBI is correct, the Southeastern Scots and even the English are mostly derived from Celtic stock... what is surprising to me is that we have seen people who have had a problem with this discovery, wanting to put groups of people into a "Bad guy" Anglo-Saxon category and a "Good guy" Celtic category. Fortunately the reality is much more complex and much more interesting, to echo Alan's statement

I blame Mel Gibson for some of that. ;) It's even worse when people divide British Isles populations into "Celtic" brunettes and "Saxon" blondes. It takes simplicity to new levels. Some forums should post simplicity warnings for new members.

Anglo-Celtic
01-20-2018, 01:00 AM
That makes sense. I was in part referring to this idea (not expressed by you) that "Scots Irish" is always a misnomer.

Problem in the US, traditionally, it often refers to a particular time-period, culture, settlement pattern, and Protestantism, and not actual ancestral roots (but ancestral roots are always complicated because people are mixed). Agree it's often technically not accurate.

I felt a bit like some were saying "the term Scots Irish is just a snotty attempt to differentiate people who called themselves Irish from later Irish" (which may have been the case at the time, but it's not like "Scotch Irish" itself wasn't used in a derogatory way), and others were saying that the Scots Irish aren't really Irish, which was just making me feel like whatever term I use I get told I'm wrong. No big deal, but that's why I spelled out what I used.

Culturally, though, my Givins (Gaelic Irish name, I think) and Glass (more likely to be Scottish in this context, I think) intermarried, came from the same area, probably, and had the same migration patterns in the US (VA, KY, southern IL, and then up into central IL and west), and both would have called themselves Irish when they came to America. To me it's now interesting to be able to speculate about older origins (and I wish I had someone to encourage to test for Y-DNA, maybe someday), but I don't think I would distinguish them within the US based on surname origin, such that one would be really "Irish" and one would be really "Scots Irish." I'm open to changing my mind on this, I don't really care much, but I don't think using one term or the other makes you simplistic or clearly wrong or whatever.

It muddies the waters when ostensibly Ulster Scottish settlers turn out to have French or German roots. Some of the plantation residents were refugees of various stripes. More than a few were French Huguenots. Davy Crockett descends from them, but his mom is Ulster Scottish. We need a new name for this group since not all of them are Irish and/or Scottish. I wonder how "Ulstrish" would go over with people. My guess is not very well. Maybe you can come up with a good term that makes sense.

Anglo-Celtic
01-20-2018, 01:11 AM
Irish migration towards was continuous throughout USA History. You had peaks of Ulster protestant and peaks of Catholic Gaels but Catholic Gaels migrated very early to the USA in great numbers , already Southern states had many rich Irish , and you can see it through some African Americans carrying typical Gaelic names.

This is true. For example, the McCarthys were one of the First Families of Virginia. Lynch, for whom Lynchburg and the Lynch Law are named, was a judge in that state. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the Native Irish were about the fifth largest immigration group during the late colonial era.

Dewsloth
01-20-2018, 01:13 AM
It muddies the waters when ostensibly Ulster Scottish settlers turn out to have French or German roots. Some of the plantation residents were refugees of various stripes. More than a few were French Huguenots.

If there's one thing I've learned since joining this board, it's that I grossly underestimated (or at least was grossly ignorant of) the mobility of families between (and around) continental Europe and Great Britain and Ireland in the centuries prior to the industrial revolution.

Anglo-Celtic
01-20-2018, 01:19 AM
If there's one thing I've learned since joining this board, it's that I grossly underestimated (or at least was grossly ignorant of) the mobility of families between (and around) continental Europe and Great Britain and Ireland in the centuries prior to the industrial revolution.

I experienced the same thing when I first learned about the varied categories of Irish people. It seems like I'm descended from each stripe. You even can break down categories into categories. For example, more than a few of the Scots-Irish were actually Englishmen or Welsh.

Nqp15hhu
01-20-2018, 12:13 PM
l do ? eh l meant most were as in the majority , not to stir the pot here but l have my gripes with the term scots - irish being used for these people in a historical context , they considered themselves nothing but irish even those of planter ancestry never once did they refer to themselves as anything but irish .99% of them saw themselves as only irish .alot of them bare irish surnames and most intermixed with the irish population .
Don't agree.

fridurich
01-20-2018, 05:16 PM
isn't it a case though that these clusters were derived via finestructure analysis, ergo their position on PCA (it's PC1 chart as far as I know) might not be relevant to how they generated these clusters. in PC1 they might overlap but it would be interesting to see PC3 generated chart. even better if represented in 3d!
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pgMAHiIWvuw/Tql5HIXNdRI/AAAAAAAABLI/I2zPF5cLRwQ/s1600/clust.gif

Thanks. If I understand it right, if we look at the PCA chart the Irish DNA Atlas has in their supplementary material, which has only PC1 and PC2, technically on PC1 the Irish show some closeness to Orkney because they are both about the same position on the PC1 axis. However, when looking on the PC2 axis we see wide distance between the Irish and Orkney. So, I assume researchers are looking at the distance both ways between different clusters, before they state how close the two are. So two clusters could be close using only PC1 and PC2, but when you compare them using PC3 on that third dimenison, they could actually be distant from each other. Am I getting this right? (By the way, really cool animated graphic. I love motion graphics, graphic design, and video.)

Also, I have heard of a study using PC4. This may sound like an elementary question, but since there are only 3 dimensions, how would a PC4 fit in?

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-20-2018, 05:20 PM
It looks like IDA just did PC1 v PC2 so yeh with further analysis I wonder If the NI 1 cluster might separate from the other NI clusters.

Interestingly, the other paper that came out at the same time from Trinity College did do analysis from PC1, PC2, PC3, PC4 but they used a different dataset and their clusters had different labels to IDA.

Thanks. Would you mind giving me the URL for the study you mention that Trinity University Dublin did recently? Thanks!

Saetro
01-20-2018, 08:21 PM
If there's one thing I've learned since joining this board, it's that I grossly underestimated (or at least was grossly ignorant of) the mobility of families between (and around) continental Europe and Great Britain and Ireland in the centuries prior to the industrial revolution.

Yes, me too.
Joining a genealogical society taught me some of the basics, so I was already way ahead of high school history.
But the detail found here is amazing.
Also from some individuals I have met who tracked their family.
Some poeple have worked with academics to provide some really good resources for ordinary genealogists on some movements - for example the Plantations from Scotland into Ireland. There are some good maps showing where some surnames came from and where they went.

Sooner or later you may need to brave a university library to get at the good stuff for some finer detail.
Not everything is on GoogleBooks. That key page you would like has not been included, for example.
I am fortunate in being in a place where the public universities acknowledge the taxpayer contribution by allowing serious and respectful members of the public to use even their rarer research volumes - as long as this does not interfere with immediate academic needs.
And the local library can order in some serious texts from universities by interlibrary loan at reasonable cost.

Jessie
01-21-2018, 04:59 AM
Thanks. Would you mind giving me the URL for the study you mention that Trinity University Dublin did recently? Thanks!

It came out the same day as the IDA. It has been linked in this thread but here it is.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf

avalon
01-21-2018, 08:24 AM
Thanks. Would you mind giving me the URL for the study you mention that Trinity University Dublin did recently? Thanks!

Jesse has linked to it and it was quite interesting. Different dataset to IDA but still reached the same conclusions alongside POBI data. They also used something called t-SNE which is a different type of analysis, good at summarising overall differences.

I'm no expert but as I understand it Principal Component Analysis is a useful tool for comparing lots of variations between data but simplifying it into a clear 2D chart, with an x and y axis. I believe that you can have as many PCs as there are variations but that PC1 vs PC2 is the one most commonly used because it captures most of the variation. This paper has a chart of PC1 vs PC4 but also PC1 vs PC2 and PC3, so along PC1 we see variation between Ireland and Britain with SE England at one end and North Leinster/Ulster at the other. PC2 captures the Orkney split and PC3 the Welsh split.

CillKenny
01-21-2018, 09:52 AM
I am not expert but it am I right that finestructure analysis uses more information to generate the tree structure so is likely to be less misleading than any small number of principal components?

Anglo-Celtic
01-22-2018, 12:04 AM
It came out the same day as the IDA. It has been linked in this thread but here it is.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf

That's very informative, but I'm confused by something. Why does the report claim that the eastern Irish are more homogeneous than the western Irish? Barring pockets of places that were settled by English and Viking settlers, I thought that the western region would be less heterogenous. It seemed like it would be more uniformly Native Irish (for want of a better term).

Jessie
01-22-2018, 12:52 AM
That's very informative, but I'm confused by something. Why does the report claim that the eastern Irish are more homogeneous than the western Irish? Barring pockets of places that were settled by English and Viking settlers, I thought that the western region would be less heterogenous. It seemed like it would be more uniformly Native Irish (for want of a better term).

My take on that (and I'm sure others will comment) is that Ireland used to be very tribal so the west continued this longer and did not intermarry with other groups as much creating more differences between the population. The same thing was commented on with the PoBI with the east been more homogenised. People just shared more genes on the east coast of both populations so creating less finescale differences.