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Heber
08-04-2015, 04:41 PM
I attended an excellent (standing room only) lunchtime lecture given by Dr Gianpiero Cavalleri at the National Library of Ireland.
He shared some insights into the progress of the Irish DNA Atlas Project and preliminary results.
Below is a summary of my notes:
1) Autosomal DNA analysis
2) 30 mutations per generation approx
3) Referenced Genes mirror geography in Europe, Novembre et al 2008
4) Referenced POBI, Leslie et al 2015
5) POBI 4060 samples
7) Referenced Population Transformations in Europe, Haak et al 2015
8) Referenced Large scale recent expansion of European , Batini et Al, 2015
9) Referenced The Y Tree bursts into life , Hallast et Al, 2014

173 samples to date
142 sequenced FGS ?
Strict criteria 8 great grand parents from same locality 30 km radius
Average age 61
Average time great grand parent lived 1848
More sample required in Midlands, Shannon and three other areas

Atlas follows regional organisation
Connaught Highest
Munster
Ulster similar to POBI W Scotland
Leinster

Admixture analysis,
Atlantic Europe (WE Seaboard), Blue. Highest
North Europe, Red, next
South Europe, Green, next
Admixture Analysis (Atlantic Component)
Ireland
Britain
France
Spain
Germany
Italy

Y Analysis by Mark Jobling
R1b-M269. 90% ? estimated 4.5-5.6k ybp
R1b-M222. 20% estimated 1.5k ybp

Estimated R1b-M269 expansion Yamna Late Neolithic.
Samples are used as reference data in other Population studies.

Irish Traveler DNA Project distinct from General Irish Population.
Possibly due to intermarriage.
Estimated divergence 777 ybp, approx 1300s

Next step compare samples to Yamna samples.
Y analysis by Mark Jobling.
No date for publication.

I asked the question about possibility of ancient DNA samples in Ireland.
Response although many bog bodies recovered, difficult to extract ancient DNA
My interpretation of Admixture analysis sequence would suggest later expansion in Atlantic Europe, possibly by P312.

Excellent start. Looking forward to publication.

avalon
08-05-2015, 06:43 AM
I attended an excellent (standing room only) lunchtime lecture given by Dr Gianpiero Cavalleri at the National Library of Ireland.
He shared some insights into the progress of the Irish DNA Atlas Project and preliminary results.
Below is a summary of my notes:
1) Autosomal DNA analysis
2) 30 mutations per generation approx
3) Referenced Genes mirror geography in Europe, Novembre et al 2008
4) Referenced POBI, Leslie et al 2015
5) POBI 4060 samples
7) Referenced Population Transformations in Europe, Haak et al 2015
8) Referenced Large scale recent expansion of European , Batini et Al, 2015
9) Referenced The Y Tree bursts into life , Hallast et Al, 2014

173 samples to date
142 sequenced FGS ?
Strict criteria 8 great grand parents from same locality 30 km radius
Average age 61
Average time great grand parent lived 1848
More sample required in Midlands, Shannon and three other areas

Atlas follows regional organisation
Connaught Highest
Munster
Ulster similar to POBI W Scotland
Leinster

Admixture analysis,
Atlantic Europe (WE Seaboard), Blue. Highest
North Europe, Red, next
South Europe, Green, next
Admixture Analysis (Atlantic Component)
Ireland
Britain
France
Spain
Germany
Italy

Y Analysis by Mark Jobling
R1b-M269. 90% ? estimated 4.5-5.6k ybp
R1b-M222. 20% estimated 1.5k ybp

Estimated R1b-M269 expansion Yamna Late Neolithic.
Samples are used as reference data in other Population studies.

Irish Traveler DNA Project distinct from General Irish Population.
Possibly due to intermarriage.
Estimated divergence 777 ybp, approx 1300s

Next step compare samples to Yamna samples.
Y analysis by Mark Jobling.
No date for publication.

I asked the question about possibility of ancient DNA samples in Ireland.
Response although many bog bodies recovered, difficult to extract ancient DNA
My interpretation of Admixture analysis sequence would suggest later expansion in Atlantic Europe, possibly by P312.

Excellent start. Looking forward to publication.

Interesting, I presume that this project is comparing autosomal DNA of Irish samples to European datasets, in a similar way to the POBI project?

Did the lecture say anything about genetic variation within Ireland? For instance, we know that Ulster clusters with SW Scotland so geographically we might expect southern parts of Ireland to show some affinity with Cornwall/Wales/Brittany?

Jessie
08-05-2015, 07:06 AM
Hopefully it will have the breakdown that was done in the PoBI study. Ireland clusters a bit north of England on genetic plots and most Irish results I've seen on Gedmatch have a pull to West Scots/Orcadian so it should be interesting to get any information on this. I hope they release some preliminary results shortly so people can get a bit of a look.

Heber
08-05-2015, 09:15 AM
Interesting, I presume that this project is comparing autosomal DNA of Irish samples to European datasets, in a similar way to the POBI project?

Did the lecture say anything about genetic variation within Ireland? For instance, we know that Ulster clusters with SW Scotland so geographically we might expect southern parts of Ireland to show some affinity with Cornwall/Wales/Brittany?

The approach was similar to the POBI approach although he referenced more recent papers eg Haak et al and Hallest et al.
The european populations PCA analysis appeared to be the same as used by POBI eg "Genes mirror geography in Europe, Novembre et al 2008"
Although he did give an overview of POBI he did not go into detail of regional comparisons with the UK except for highlighting the Ulster Scotland connection.
We have invited IDA to present at Genetic Genealogy Ireland in October and we expect further analysis at that stage.
The dominant admixture component in Irish regions was the Atlantic (WE Seaboard) component with highest (my visual observation) in
Connacht
Munster
Ulster
Leinster
Connacht and Munster were quiet close.
I did not take photos however I believe a podcast may be in preparation.
Regarding Y analysis which is underway by Mark Jobling my understanding is that R1b-M269 expanded in Yamnaya in the late Neolithic with possible later expansion of R1b-P312 in the Atlantic region.
I would expect Mark Jobling to publish a combined POBI and IDA analysis of Y later this year.

Jessie
08-05-2015, 09:30 AM
The approach was similar to the POBI approach although he referenced more recent papers eg Haak et al and Hallest et al.
The european populations PCA analysis appeared to be the same as used by POBI eg "Genes mirror geography in Europe, Novembre et al 2008"
Although he did give an overview of POBI he did not go into detail of regional comparisons with the UK except for highlighting the Ulster Scotland connection.
We have invited IDA to present at Genetic Genealogy Ireland in October and we expect further analysis at that stage.
The dominant admixture component in Irish regions was the Atlantic (WE Seaboard) component with highest (my visual observation) in
Connacht
Munster
Ulster
Leinster
Connacht and Munster were quiet close.
I did not take photos however I believe a podcast may be in preparation.
Regarding Y analysis which is underway by Mark Jobling my understanding is that R1b-M269 expanded in Yamnaya in the late Neolithic with possible later expansion of R1b-P312 in the Atlantic region.
I would expect Mark Jobling to publish a combined POBI and IDA analysis of Y later this year.

Can you possibly elaborate on what Atlantic (WE Seaboard) means? In the PoBI study they used descriptions such as FRA17, GER6 as per the example below. I really hope that this study will use similar terminology.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQY/VQnXa-eFJII/AAAAAAAAKBM/G6E-D3ZT034/s1600/ContinentalSources.jpg

Heber
08-05-2015, 09:48 AM
Can you possibly elaborate on what Atlantic (WE Seaboard) means? In the PoBI study they used descriptions such as FRA17, GER6 as per the example below. I really hope that this study will use similar terminology.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQY/VQnXa-eFJII/AAAAAAAAKBM/G6E-D3ZT034/s1600/ContinentalSources.jpg

He showed this slide so I guess he is following a similar methodology.
At this early stage he showed three main admixture components
Atlantic (WE Seaboard)
North Europe
South Europe
Atlantic was the dominant component in Ireland.
It may be that subsequent detailed analysis will include higher granularity.

avalon
08-05-2015, 10:09 AM
In the POBI paper the FRA14 dataset was apparently taken from a hospital in Rennes so I guess this probably best represents an Atlantic component. Would be interesting to know the sample locations used by the Irish DNA project.

Jessie
08-05-2015, 10:52 AM
He showed this slide so I guess he is following a similar methodology.
At this early stage he showed three main admixture components
Atlantic (WE Seaboard)
North Europe
South Europe
Atlantic was the dominant component in Ireland.
It may be that subsequent detailed analysis will include higher granularity.

Thank you for these updates. I'm really looking forward to when more details are released.

Dubhthach
08-05-2015, 10:58 AM
Any idea when a paper will be released etc? Also what size SNP chip were they using. Obviously with average age of 61 for participants and average time "great grandparent lived" at 1848, it gives a snapshot into generation that survived the Great Famine (1847 obviously remembered as infamous "Back 47")

A similiar result for Connacht/Munster make sense given that both provinces remained as majority Irish speaking provinces until at least the Famine period, Leinster obviously had most admixture over the preceeding 800 years.

Dubhthach
08-05-2015, 10:59 AM
I would hope that the SNP chip would at least have a bit of wider SNP choice than just M269 and M222 when it comes to Y-Chromosome

Heber
08-05-2015, 12:13 PM
I contacted the event organiser and the (voice) pod cast probably will not be available until October, by which time we should already have an update at Genetic Genealogy Ireland.
I also contacted Gianpiero to clarify a couple of points eg FGS or Genotype chip platform and R1b-M269 frequency which to me appears high.

Dubhthach
08-05-2015, 04:55 PM
Well I imagine it depends on what version of R tree they used when designing that part of their SNP chip. Lets hope it isn't this one:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/RTree-2005.JPG

Cause that's partying like it's 2005! Even 2009 would be major improvement on that!


http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/RTree-2009.JPG

Heber
08-05-2015, 06:01 PM
Any idea when a paper will be released etc? Also what size SNP chip were they using. Obviously with average age of 61 for participants and average time "great grandparent lived" at 1848, it gives a snapshot into generation that survived the Great Famine (1847 obviously remembered as infamous "Back 47")

A similiar result for Connacht/Munster make sense given that both provinces remained as majority Irish speaking provinces until at least the Famine period, Leinster obviously had most admixture over the preceeding 800 years.

My understanding is that because of the less strict criteria on POBI ie 4 g parents v 8 gg parents the average time g parents lived in POBI was late 19th century.
I have written to Gianpiero asking for clarification on the sequencing platform used.
There was no date for publication and I believe they want to recruit more participants especially in areas of no coverage. We will have a member of the IDA team present at GGI2015 in October.

avalon
08-05-2015, 08:22 PM
He showed this slide so I guess he is following a similar methodology.
At this early stage he showed three main admixture components
Atlantic (WE Seaboard)
North Europe
South Europe
Atlantic was the dominant component in Ireland.
It may be that subsequent detailed analysis will include higher granularity.

Interesting that the Atlantic component is dominant in Ireland. The POBI project seem to have picked up a similar thing with their FRA14 (Atlantic?) component which is particularly strong in Wales.

These results though do seem to be at odds with other sources where the Irish sit closer to North Sea areas. I am particularly thinking of Eurogenes K15 where Irish, Scottish and English all have higher North Sea components than Atlantic components.

I can only think that the Irish DNA Atlas sampling and methodology is different to Eurogenes, etc.

Generalissimo
08-05-2015, 10:10 PM
Interesting that the Atlantic component is dominant in Ireland. The POBI project seem to have picked up a similar thing with their FRA14 (Atlantic?) component which is particularly strong in Wales.

These results though do seem to be at odds with other sources where the Irish sit closer to North Sea areas. I am particularly thinking of Eurogenes K15 where Irish, Scottish and English all have higher North Sea components than Atlantic components.

I can only think that the Irish DNA Atlas sampling and methodology is different to Eurogenes, etc.

They used the same name for a different, higher K component.

Heber
08-06-2015, 01:16 AM
I would hope that the SNP chip would at least have a bit of wider SNP choice than just M269 and M222 when it comes to Y-Chromosome

Update:
"we have only genotyped (illumina omniXpress), we have not yet sequenced beyond the work published by Mark Jobling on Y."

avalon
08-06-2015, 07:21 AM
They used the same name for a different, higher K component.

Sorry, could you explain that in more detail? My knowledge of admixture calculators is quite limited.

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 07:30 AM
Sorry, could you explain that in more detail? My knowledge of admixture calculators is quite limited.

They're not using Admixture, but it's basically as if they went up to a K20 where there was a more specific Irish component. So what they're doing is similar to the 23andMe AC, and focusing on more recent ancestry, rather than subtle differences in the levels of more widely spread components to recognize Irish people.

Shaikorth
08-06-2015, 07:54 AM
Interesting that the Atlantic component is dominant in Ireland. The POBI project seem to have picked up a similar thing with their FRA14 (Atlantic?) component which is particularly strong in Wales.

These results though do seem to be at odds with other sources where the Irish sit closer to North Sea areas. I am particularly thinking of Eurogenes K15 where Irish, Scottish and English all have higher North Sea components than Atlantic components.

I can only think that the Irish DNA Atlas sampling and methodology is different to Eurogenes, etc.

Their Irish sample is large and their complete dataset most likely does not have the same populations used to make Eurogenes calculators. Both of these factors will make it easier for an Irish modal component to form.

In the run below (from Paschou et al. 2014) you can see that some Irish individuals are already getting their own light green component at K=8.

http://s12.postimg.org/6z5167urx/admpaschou.jpg

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 08:00 AM
That's not an Irish cluster. It looks like they didn't remove a few relatives IMO.

Shaikorth
08-06-2015, 08:26 AM
That's not an Irish cluster. It looks like they didn't remove a few relatives IMO.

Possibly, but those few individuals look different at K=7 too. A full Irish cluster would likely form at K=9 or K=10 in this run, they had another which included Bedouins and Yemenites and then Irish didn't do anything special at K=8.

Heber mentioned only some European populations in the opening post though, if those were the only ones in the run an Irish cluster should appear pretty quickly.

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 08:56 AM
Possibly, but those few individuals look different at K=7 too. A full Irish cluster would likely form at K=9 or K=10 in this run, they had another which included Bedouins and Yemenites and then Irish didn't do anything special at K=8.

Heber mentioned only some European populations in the opening post though, if those were the only ones in the run an Irish cluster should appear pretty quickly.

Have a look at the Druze. Many of them show high levels of IBD/IBS sharing due to endogamy. They're behaving in a similar way in this analysis. Western Europeans shouldn't behave in this way.

Baltimore1937
08-06-2015, 10:16 AM
Hey, who really cares? Most people are interested in establishing their pedigree. That is rather more recent than stone age origins.

avalon
08-06-2015, 10:19 AM
They're not using Admixture, but it's basically as if they went up to a K20 where there was a more specific Irish component. So what they're doing is similar to the 23andMe AC, and focusing on more recent ancestry, rather than subtle differences in the levels of more widely spread components to recognize Irish people.

Thanks for reply. I think I will go away and read about K7, K8 or whatever they are as I am still struggling to understand this Atlantic component thing.

Heber
08-06-2015, 10:29 AM
Ed Gilbert is the analytics person on the IDA team and he will present at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 in October.
Hopefully he will have more detail on PCA and admixture analysis and the WE Seaboard (Atlantic) component.
http://ggi2013.blogspot.co.uk/
Professor Dan Bradley will also present at that conference. His ancient DNA lab is now up and running an I believe he has Irish samples.

avalon
08-06-2015, 10:31 AM
Their Irish sample is large and their complete dataset most likely does not have the same populations used to make Eurogenes calculators. Both of these factors will make it easier for an Irish modal component to form.

In the run below (from Paschou et al. 2014) you can see that some Irish individuals are already getting their own light green component at K=8.

http://s12.postimg.org/6z5167urx/admpaschou.jpg

Another factor may be the precise location of modern Irish samples used by different studies. For instance, someone from the east of Ireland (Ulster and Leinster) is likely to have more historical English, Viking and Norman admixture whereas someone with an Irish surname from the Gaeltacht areas in the west is more likely to have native Irish ancestry?

Dubhthach
08-06-2015, 10:41 AM
Another factor may be the precise location of modern Irish samples used by different studies. For instance, someone from the east of Ireland (Ulster and Leinster) is likely to have more historical English, Viking and Norman admixture whereas someone with an Irish surname from the Gaeltacht areas in the west is more likely to have native Irish ancestry?

You'd be surprised there are plenty of Gaelgeoir's with Cambro-Norman names, for example out in Conamara ye find plenty of Breathnach's (Walsh) which as surnames go is specifically linked to Cambro-Norman's. ;) -- even the infamous Peig Sayers (if you were a student of certain generation) had an english surname, and she was from the Blaskett's in West Kerry.

What I would say is that any "Gaelic Irish" component is probably found in all Irish people the issue of course is gonna be the percentage distribution across various geographic areas. In general at least 75-80% of Irish surnames are of Irish language origin, bulk of remaining are Cambro-Norman with the more "english surname" types generally dating to the "New English" of Tudor conquest period onwards ("New" here often a synonym for Protestant). What's evident is that Irish was still found as home language in every county in Ireland in late 18th century, even in places like Wexford which had it's own distinct "dialect" of Middle English called Yola, you can find accounts of Irish speakers, such as during the 1798 rebellion.

I've read accounts from early 19th century that you only had to go 15miles south of Dublin city center to find areas in Dublin mountains that were still Irish speaking.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Gaeilge-late-18th-small.png

Shaikorth
08-06-2015, 11:25 AM
Have a look at the Druze. Many of them show high levels of IBD/IBS sharing due to endogamy. They're behaving in a similar way in this analysis. Western Europeans shouldn't behave in this way.

If there are exceptions they should be found in Ireland where some subisolates may remain. Orcadians show the endogamy too, in Finestructure and 23andMe's PCA where they get their own very distinct dimension. My main point is that an Irish-centric component shouldn't be too hard to form at early K's (before we get to 15) if there are enough Irish samples and the total dataset doesn't contain too many more distinct populations.

Let's imagine the run below dropped the Orcadians and increased the number of Irish samples to match the Orcadians. The NW European component would quite likely center in Ireland if that was the case, and then someone could name it "Atlantic".

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2hrk7jp.jpg

Heber
08-06-2015, 12:35 PM
Their Irish sample is large and their complete dataset most likely does not have the same populations used to make Eurogenes calculators. Both of these factors will make it easier for an Irish modal component to form.

In the run below (from Paschou et al. 2014) you can see that some Irish individuals are already getting their own light green component at K=8.

http://s12.postimg.org/6z5167urx/admpaschou.jpg

I do not claim to completely understand this graph. However k=8 appears to indicate a link between Ireland and Druze.
It is interesting that in a recent paper John Koch highlighted the link between Phoneticians and Celtic in the Atlantic zone suggesting that the arrival of the Phoenicians in the West gradually replaced the Proto Celtic networks in Tartessos.

Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

http://www.celticstudiescongress.org/index.php/home/about-iccs/2015-congress/iccs/

Jessie
08-06-2015, 01:06 PM
I do not claim to completely understand this graph. However k=8 appears to indicate a link between Ireland and Druze.
It is interesting that in a recent paper John Koch highlighted the link between Phoneticians and Celtic in the Atlantic zone suggesting that the arrival of the Phoenicians in the West gradually replaced the Proto Celtic networks in Tartessos.

Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

http://www.celticstudiescongress.org/index.php/home/about-iccs/2015-congress/iccs/

I don't think that shows a link between the Irish and Druze. Looking at that K8 graph they look very different which would be expected.

Shaikorth
08-06-2015, 02:32 PM
I don't think that shows a link between the Irish and Druze. Looking at that K8 graph they look very different which would be expected.

K=8 Irish and Druze components are different (shades of green), there is no link.

avalon
08-06-2015, 09:26 PM
Have a look at the Druze. Many of them show high levels of IBD/IBS sharing due to endogamy. They're behaving in a similar way in this analysis. Western Europeans shouldn't behave in this way.

Do you not think Western Europeans have practiced endogamy? I dunno, just going by my own family history from a small village in North Wales (Merionethshire) in the 19th/early 20th century, every surname in the village was Welsh (Jones, Williams, Hughes, Roberts, etc), not an English surname in sight.

My father remembers meeting some of these elderly relatives in the 1950s and he described them as being a bit inbred and they didn't speak very good English either. :biggrin1:

Anyway, I guess my point is that in some isolated rural parts of Western Europe there must still be some fairly inbred people, subisolates was the term used earlier?

Generalissimo
08-06-2015, 10:07 PM
Do you not think Western Europeans have practiced endogamy? I dunno, just going by my own family history from a small village in North Wales (Merionethshire) in the 19th/early 20th century, every surname in the village was Welsh (Jones, Williams, Hughes, Roberts, etc), not an English surname in sight.

My father remembers meeting some of these elderly relatives in the 1950s and he described them as being a bit inbred and they didn't speak very good English either. :biggrin1:

Anyway, I guess my point is that in some isolated rural parts of Western Europe there must still be some fairly inbred people, subisolates was the term used earlier?

Western Europeans are generally much more outbred than other groups. But I guess there might still be local exceptions to that rule.

J1 DYS388=13
08-07-2015, 04:01 AM
A recent paper, the title of which I can't recall, found that although people in traditional societies tended to marry people who were distant cousins of some degree, genetically it did no harm at the third cousin or more distant degree.

I suggest you delete the last part of this sentence, as I have done here: "My father remembers meeting some of these elderly relatives in the 1950s and he described them as being a bit inbred..."

Many people here in Wales would find the part about language which I have deleted to be offensive.

avalon
08-07-2015, 06:31 AM
A recent paper, the title of which I can't recall, found that although people in traditional societies tended to marry people who were distant cousins of some degree, genetically it did no harm at the third cousin or more distant degree.

I suggest you delete the last part of this sentence, as I have done here: "My father remembers meeting some of these elderly relatives in the 1950s and he described them as being a bit inbred..."

Many people here in Wales would find the part about language which I have deleted to be offensive.

You do realise that my light hearted comment was actually about my own very close relatives, great uncles and aunts? I actually met a couple of them when I was a child, including my great grandmother who lived to 101. She herself was bilingual but her Welsh was better than her English.

In terms of language, you may not be aware but even as late as the 1950s and 1960s there were still a few elderly monoglot Welsh speakers in rural parts of North Wales so I am actually quite proud that elderly relatives of mine didn't speak much English in the 1950s.

I suggest you read the writer Will Perrin, who writes some lovely accounts of working with old, monoglot Welsh shepherds in Cwm Pennant in Eifionydd during the 60s.

http://www.rhiw.com/hanes_02/llyn_monoglots/monoglots.htm

glentane
08-07-2015, 11:13 AM
My father worked in the Forestry round Gwynedd after getting out of the RAF in the 50s. Welsh-only was a fact of life on the job, although sometimes they'd cut the lad some slack when something needed doing, and carefully explain in English. Older farmers, village ladies and so on? No chance. Even the shop. Welsh it or forget it. Mam and Dad realised they'd better set about learning Welsh or they were stuffed, and took it pretty seriously.
As a toddler in Beddgelert, village girls used to persuade my mother to let them take me out for walks (younger brother in huge pram). They knew a bit of English, but not enough to talk with even me. Mam freaked out when one day I somehow ended up in the River Glaslyn and ran home gibbering in terror on my own, soaking wet. I kept repeating the same thing when she asked me what had happened. In desperation she dragged me round to the neighbour's, who burst out laughing and then translated. "He's saying he's got tadpoles in his pants!". By this time the girls had appeared with the pram and baby, so all ended well.

Heber
08-10-2015, 05:53 AM
Here is the map of sampled locations for the Irish DNA Atlas. Recruitment is still underway especially for areas of low coverage eg. Midlands, Limerick/Kerry, Longford.
5523

Heber
08-26-2015, 06:00 AM
We have a great line up for this years Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 Oct 9-11 in the RDS in Dublin Dr Ed Gilbert will present preliminary results of the Irish DNA Atlas and key note speakers include Professor James Mallory and Professor Dan Bradley.

The theme this year is: Who are the Irish? And we have several learned colleagues addressing this specific subject. We are very lucky to have Professor James Mallory (Queens University Belfast) join us for the first time. His 2013 book "The Origins of the Irish" was an instant bestseller and is a must-read for everyone with an interest in the archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence that underlies current theories regarding the first peoples of Ireland. If we are lucky he will be signing a few copies of his book at the FTDNA stand.

We also see the welcome return of Prof Dan Bradley from Trinity College Dublin who will discuss some of the recent findings from ancient DNA research. One of Prof Bradley's research interests is the origins and spread of modern humans during the Late Pleistocene period and he is part of a large Europe-wide project which investigates the evolution and nature of major prehistoric processes which are key to our understanding of what happened in European prehistory. The advent of new genetic technologies has revolutionised the study of ancient DNA, shedding new light on the spread of peoples across Europe and into Ireland.

But the Irish are a mixed bunch. Various waves of migration into Ireland have resulted in a population with a medley of genetic influences. The lectures will cover ancient DNA (Prof Dan Bradley), Irish Clans & Irish Identity (Cathy Swift), the genetic influence of the Vikings (Cathy Swift), Welsh-Norman DNA (Brian Swann), and the legacy of the Scots-Irish (James Irvine). We will also have an update on the fabulous Munster Irish Project (Elizabeth O'Donoghue Ross, Finbar O Mahony) and the first results of the exciting Irish DNA Atlas Project (Ed Gilbert) which is an academic study akin to the People of the British Isles Project. It will be interesting to see how the results from the various projects are similar ... and different.

As usual I will organize a day out for speakers and ISOGG visitors on Monday 12th including a preview of the future Epic Ireland exhibit which showcases the Irish diaspora journey through history.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.nl/

Heber
09-12-2015, 04:46 PM
We have updated the program for Genetic Genealogy Ireland and the traditional Speakers Day Out.

http://ggi2013.blogspot.nl/2015/09/the-ggi2015-fabulous-day-out-mon-oct.html?showComment=1442075261146&m=1#c4348819611706684699

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

Looking forward to the presentation of preliminary results of the Irish DNA Atlas, ancient DNA by Professor Dan Bradley and The Origins of the Irish by Professor James Mallory as well as the many other interesting presentations.

Heber
10-14-2015, 01:24 PM
We had a very successful Genetic Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 conference, including Jean Mancos excellent presentation on the Celts.
A few takeaways
Professor Jim Mallory gave an excellent talk on Origins of the Irish and he will present at the Jena conference.
Professor Dan Bradley has 20 ancient samples in his lab from all ages in Ireland including MA,NA, BA, IA.
Irish DNA Atlas has confirmed The distinctive Western European Seaboard signature in Ireland.
Here are my initial photos from the conference and our day out for speakers.
I will post further when I get a chance on the weekend.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

dsherry
10-14-2015, 01:51 PM
Do you know when the lectures will start going up on youtube and which ones will be included? The ones you referenced above are the ones of highest interest to me. Thanks

Heber
10-14-2015, 02:01 PM
The laptop of Maurice crashed on Friday so there may be some delay as he recovers data. All lectures should be posted. I will post more detailed notes on the weekend. I am on the road until then.

Jessie
10-14-2015, 02:29 PM
We had a very successful Genetic Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 conference, including Jean Mancos excellent presentation on the Celts.
A few takeaways
Professor Jim Mallory gave an excellent talk on Origins of the Irish and he will present at the Jena conference.
Professor Dan Bradley has 20 ancient samples in his lab from all ages in Ireland including MA,NA, BA, IA.
Irish DNA Atlas has confirmed The distinctive Western European Seaboard signature in Ireland.
Here are my initial photos from the conference and our day out for speakers.
I will post further when I get a chance on the weekend.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

Looking at that graph the "distinctive Western European Seaboard" is present in all British Isles populations but increases as you get to Ireland. It is the reason why Irish people get the highest British&Irish on 23andMe and the Ireland category in Ancestry. I just hope that the results are broken down more than shown as otherwise it is not very informative. Thanks for the update and looking forward to more information on this.

dsherry
10-14-2015, 03:20 PM
Thanks for the response. I hope Maurice's hard drive recovery goes smoothly. That's a frustrating thing to happen. Hopefully he is in good shape on the backups.

Heber
10-14-2015, 08:07 PM
I have updated the slides from the Irish DNA Atlas presentation from my mobile.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

Jessie
10-15-2015, 02:07 AM
I have updated the slides from the Irish DNA Atlas presentation from my mobile.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

Thanks Heber. The cluster map Finestructure Britain & Ireland is very interesting.

Jean M
10-15-2015, 09:32 AM
My notes from the lecture on the Irish DNA Atlas:

The Irish cohort has to have all 8 great-great-grandparents born within 30 km2, plus pedigree charts.
170 have been recruited so far. (Several were in the audience.)

The project scientists have done several types of analysis:

FST analysis measures population distance.

Ireland vs Spain shows distinct genetic differences, for example lactase persistence is very high in Northern Europe, including Ireland, while it is lower in southern Europe, including Spain. The OCA2 gene is connected with blue eyes: higher level in Ireland. Immunity genes are different between Ireland and Spain.
Ireland vs Norway - more similar.


However Ireland, Britain and partly Spain show a western seaboard component.


Fine structure analysis has been done, as with PoBI.
Y-DNA analysis will be done by Mark Jobling, as with PoBI. 75% of Irish men carry R1b-M269, which is estimated to be 4,500-5,500 years old.


A particular study has been made of Irish Travellers, who carry a high burden of recessive diseases and have huge runs of homozygosity from inbreeding. They have 40 individuals in the study. Their Irish origins have been established.

Dubhthach
10-15-2015, 10:34 AM
It's good they have a decent cohort for Traveller study, obviously there was the "Blood of Travellers" tv program several years ago which didn't really tell us anything other than various Traveller men were L21 (Collins, Barrett implied)or M222 (ward) and that Travellers were most closely related to general Irish population but that they cluster together.

Jean M
10-15-2015, 10:59 AM
obviously there was the "Blood of Travellers" tv program several years ago..

He mentioned that programme, which was on RTE 2011.

J1 DYS388=13
10-15-2015, 11:08 AM
My notes from the lecture on the Irish DNA Atlas:

The Irish cohort has to have all 8 great-great-grandparents born within 30 km2, plus pedigree charts.
170 have been recruited so far. (Several were in the audience.)

The project scientists have done several types of analysis:

FST analysis measures population distance.

Ireland vs Spain shows distinct genetic differences, for example lactase persistence is very high in Northern Europe, including Ireland, while it is lower in southern Europe, including Spain. The OCA2 gene is connected with blue eyes: higher level in Ireland. Immunity genes are different between Ireland and Spain.
Ireland vs Norway - more similar.


However Ireland, Britain and partly Spain show a western seaboard component.


Fine structure analysis has been done, as with PoBI.
Y-DNA analysis will be done by Mark Jobling, as with PoBI. 75% of Irish men carry R1b-M269, which is estimated to be 4,500-5,500 years old.




So are the following conclusions correct?

1. The data presented supports the theory that the Irish are largely descended from people who moved up the coast from Iberia.

2. That particular population movement did not occur after the end of the last Ice Age, but rather during the Early Bronze Age or somewhat earlier.

Jessie
10-15-2015, 12:09 PM
So are the following conclusions correct?

1. The data presented supports the theory that the Irish are largely descended from people who moved up the coast from Iberia.

2. That particular population movement did not occur after the end of the last Ice Age, but rather during the Early Bronze Age or somewhat earlier.

The data doesn't appear to say that at all and I would be very surprised if that conclusion was reached. In Jean's post she mentions the distinct genetic differences between Ireland and Spain. The study mentions the "western seaboard component" which is in Ireland, Britain and partly Spain. I bet this is the French component which appears in the POBI. The Early Bronze Age migrations are from Bell Beaker and some populations show more influence from this movement than others but most of Europe has influences from this.

I'll be interested in Jean's interpretation.

Jean M
10-15-2015, 01:45 PM
So are the following conclusions correct?

1. The data presented supports the theory that the Irish are largely descended from people who moved up the coast from Iberia.

No. The autosomal differences between the Irish and Spanish were pointed out. The greater similarity with Norway was pointed out. Not that we should leap to the conclusion that the ancestors of the Irish all came from Norway! Those FST distances were just shown to illustrate that the Irish are essentially a northern European population. We knew that already from autosomal comparisons between various European populations, for example Novembre et al., Genes mirror geography within Europe, Nature, Vol 456, (6 November 2008), where you see the Irish overlapping the British in the upper left quadrant and distant from Spain and Portugal in the lower left quadrant:

6333

That image was shown in the presentation.

However the Atlantic seaboard element is interesting and (my opinion) probably reflects both the Atlantic Bell Beaker route (not the only BB route) into the Isles and the Atlantic Bronze Age connections which went both ways, and perhaps took Celtic into Galicia. In other words I would seek Copper and Bronze Age causes, rather than Mesolithic.

Jessie
10-15-2015, 01:48 PM
I think the "western seaboard component" might possibly be blue 14 on this which is represented as NW French here.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

J1 DYS388=13
10-15-2015, 04:43 PM
Is this a correct conclusion?

The data presented supports the theory that the Irish are largely descended from people who migrated from what is now Britain and northwest France.

avalon
10-15-2015, 06:11 PM
However the Atlantic seaboard element is interesting and (my opinion) probably reflects both the Atlantic Bell Beaker route (not the only BB route) into the Isles and the Atlantic Bronze Age connections which went both ways, and perhaps took Celtic into Galicia. In other words I would seek Copper and Bronze Age causes, rather than Mesolithic.

Could this Atlantic seaboard element also be partly down to Neolithic connections between Armorica and Ireland and Western Britain? I know that Barry Cunliffe has suggested such links.

Also, some of it must be down to the Celts who fled to Brittany in post Roman times?

Heber
10-15-2015, 06:15 PM
I have updated the Irish Traveller DNA Project.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

When we visited the Mansion House as part of our ISOGG GGI2015 day out several of our guests signed the Book of Condolences which was to express solidariy with the Traveller community which was mourning the recent tragic fire. It was a moving experience.

Regarding the WE Seaboard Component of the Irish DNA Atlas, I believe it is due to the Bronze Age Atlantic migrations as described by Cunliffe and Koch.

Dubhthach
10-15-2015, 07:48 PM
I think the "western seaboard component" might possibly be blue 14 on this which is represented as NW French here.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

Remember in that study that the Irish sample (eg. 26 county reference) formed it's own distinct cluster which was later excluded form final PoBI report another poster posted the following pdf (which I archived -- I've forgotten who, just back from an "industry event" which involved several drinks :) )

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/RoyalSociety_exhibit_Jul2012.pdf

Jessie
10-16-2015, 02:03 AM
Remember in that study that the Irish sample (eg. 26 county reference) formed it's own distinct cluster which was later excluded form final PoBI report another poster posted the following pdf (which I archived -- I've forgotten who, just back from an "industry event" which involved several drinks :) )

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/RoyalSociety_exhibit_Jul2012.pdf

When they had the Irish component the Highlands had 63% of this. So the Irish component can be broken down and most likely has similar contributions from Europe as what occurred in Britain. Whatever the Highlands has been broken down to should give a good hint of what the Irish will be comprised of.

Jessie
10-16-2015, 02:10 AM
Is this a correct conclusion?

The data presented supports the theory that the Irish are largely descended from people who migrated from what is now Britain and northwest France.

There will be contributions from other areas as well so you should get something similar to what was done in the POBI Project.

Heber
10-16-2015, 06:58 AM
Regarding the WE Seaboard Component of the Irish DNA Atlas, I believe it is due to the Bronze Age Atlantic migrations as described by Cunliffe and Koch.


Remember in that study that the Irish sample (eg. 26 county reference) formed it's own distinct cluster which was later excluded form final PoBI report another poster posted the following pdf (which I archived -- I've forgotten who, just back from an "industry event" which involved several drinks :) )

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/RoyalSociety_exhibit_Jul2012.pdf

This is the best presentation of POBI I have seen to date.
Is the original available somewhere?

Jean M
10-16-2015, 08:18 AM
Could this Atlantic seaboard element also be partly down to Neolithic connections between Armorica and Ireland and Western Britain? I know that Barry Cunliffe has suggested such links.

It looks like farmers entered the British Isles from various points across the Channel including what was later Brittany, but these were dairy farmers, whose origins probably lay in peoples who had spread up the Danube in the later Neolithic. They brought with them polished axes of Jadeite from the Italian Alps. Four of these are in the National Museum of Ireland. (Barry Cunliffe was least convincing when trying to suggest that some farmers arrived in the Isles from Iberia. There just is no link.)



Also, some of it must be down to the Celts who fled to Brittany in post Roman times?

Yes indeed.

Jean M
10-16-2015, 08:19 AM
Sorry. Duplicate.

Dubhthach
10-16-2015, 09:09 AM
This is the best presentation of POBI I have seen to date.
Is the original available somewhere?

I think it was posted on here somewhere, I've forgotten who posted it, is mór an náire

Dubhthach
10-16-2015, 09:13 AM
When they had the Irish component the Highlands had 63% of this. So the Irish component can be broken down and most likely has similar contributions from Europe as what occurred in Britain. Whatever the Highlands has been broken down to should give a good hint of what the Irish will be comprised of.

Well in their intitial analysis they couldn't break it down, by excluding it of course this led to whatever algorithm recalcuating all the various admixture components based on the available sample data (eg. Europe excluding Ireland)

This is par of course with using an algorithmic approach, it can only do calcualations on data fed into it. An unkind Tech expression is "Garbage in, Garbage out" ;) .If you exclude one dataset than the end result will be different. What the original analysis I think shows is that you are probably looking at a "North West Europe" component, which is modal in Irish sample (due to fact that Ireland had minimum inflows over last 2,000 years). When you include the Irish sample the cluster label 17 (French in above pdf) if anything looks more like a Gallo-Brythonic cluster, been peak in Wales and in North-West France.

You also have to remember that the "Highland cluster" is actually "Highlands and Northern Ireland", you'd expect that people in Northern Ireland might have closer affinity to 26 county sample than say subset that are specifically highlander. What would have been interesting is if that cluster was spilt on geographically (eg. average might be 63%, but might be higher in North of Ireland cohort and lower in Highland cohort etc.)

razyn
10-16-2015, 01:40 PM
This is the best presentation of POBI I have seen to date.
Is the original available somewhere?


I think it was posted on here somewhere, I've forgotten who posted it, is mór an náire

I nabbed the same 2012 snapshots and parked them in my iPhoto library -- which helpfully dates such activity, so I know I did that Aug. 30, 2013. In case that helps you find the "originals." I dimly recall that Brian Picton Swann had posted a few such snapshots to the Facebook ISOGG group; so he was one possible source (attended the exhibition at the Royal Society, with a camera), but I'm not prepared to suggest these are his. The POBI folks had discouraged photography, and the sharing thereof, because they intended to publish these results -- they hoped, in Nature. That did eventually happen -- in March, 2015 -- but with different, and in some respects less interesting, maps and captions.

Heber
10-16-2015, 01:44 PM
I nabbed the same 2012 snapshots and parked them in my iPhoto library -- which helpfully dates such activity, so I know I did that Aug. 30, 2013. In case that helps you find the "originals." I dimly recall that Brian Picton Swann had posted a few such snapshots to the Facebook ISOGG group; so he was one possible source (attended the exhibition at the Royal Society, with a camera), but I'm not prepared to suggest these are his. The POBI folks had discouraged photography, and the sharing thereof, because they intended to publish these results -- they hoped, in Nature. That did eventually happen -- in March, 2015 -- but with different, and in some respects less interesting, maps and captions.

Thanks Richard. I will ask POBI directly if they can share the original posters. I agree they are a lot more useful for educational purposes that the Nature article.

Shaikorth
10-16-2015, 01:47 PM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

Dubhthach
10-16-2015, 04:28 PM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

I imagine if you threw in a standard enough set of other West European counties ye get a better picture. So at least:

France
Belgium
Netherlands
Germany
Denmark
Norway
Spain
Portugal

For completion add in Sweden (to round out Scandinavia) and Italy to give a more eastery/southern pull.

avalon
10-16-2015, 04:44 PM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

I know it's only fine scale and that basically the British and the Irish are genetically fairly similar to each other but I would have expected the North Welsh and the Irish to be closer to each other on that PCA, being Celtic cousins and all?

Shaikorth
10-16-2015, 05:09 PM
I know it's only fine scale and that basically the British and the Irish are genetically fairly similar to each other but I would have expected the North Welsh and the Irish to be closer to each other on that PCA, being Celtic cousins and all?

Well, it is possible that the difference is in large part due to drift as North Welsh appear to be quite endogamous and isolated (like Orcadians). It'd be nice to see further tests.

@Dubhthach

I like the idea of using ancient genomes to define the PCA's edges. But if that doesn't work you're right that closely related European samples are needed to keep the fine-scale differences from being obscured. Adygei and Sardinians already compress Orcadians and Irish into an indistinct NW European blob, which we have seen in many West Eurasian PCA's.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/b0/87/f6b087c3c101fc9289e6d1ef142873cc.jpg

Jessie
10-17-2015, 04:51 AM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

I've always found that the Irish are closest to Scots on dna plots and by genetic distance so this is just confirming that.

avalon
10-17-2015, 07:11 AM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

That PCA is also quite a nice split between Brythonic Celts to the left of England and Gaelic Celts below England. To my mind all of this makes perfect sense given the known history of the last 2000 years. I do agree that drift and isolation and endogamy are also important.

Jessie
10-17-2015, 07:53 AM
That PCA is also quite a nice split between Brythonic Celts to the left of England and Gaelic Celts below England. To my mind all of this makes perfect sense given the known history of the last 2000 years. I do agree that drift and isolation and endogamy are also important.

Orkney would be more northern. I would presume that Ireland would be west. It does appear to show the Brythonic/Gaelic split.

jdean
10-17-2015, 01:09 PM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

Is there a logical reason why W. Scotland is closer to England than Ireland ?

rms2
10-17-2015, 03:00 PM
Is there a logical reason why W. Scotland is closer to England than Ireland ?

The Brythonic element in both England and W. Scotland, since the difference is on PC2? Just guessing.

jdean
10-17-2015, 03:36 PM
The Brythonic element in both England and W. Scotland, since the difference is on PC2? Just guessing.

Yes I suppose that's the most logical explanation, the thing I was wondering is there was a lot of genetic input from N. England into the east side of Scotland (I think ?) and I would have thought that would have pulled Scotland x W. Scotland towards England. I suppose part of this question though is how exactly are they defining W. Scotland if the rest of Scotland is called merely Scotland ?

Heber
10-17-2015, 03:37 PM
Is there a logical reason why W. Scotland is closer to England than Ireland ?

Ulster was divided into two clusters with native Irish names and British names as expected.
6349
Ireland clusters with Scotland and parts of Scotland Border clusters with parts of Ulster.
You can see that Ulster 12 and 13 cluster differently.
6350

I have updated the board with some of Jean Mancos presentation.
The video update is delayed to the end of October due to a laptop incident.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

rms2
10-17-2015, 03:37 PM
Yes I suppose that's the most logical explanation, the thing I was wondering is there was a lot of genetic input from N. England into the east side of Scotland (I think ?) and I would have thought that would have pulled Scotland x W. Scotland towards England. I suppose part of this question though is how exactly are the defining W. Scotland if the rest of Scotland is called mealy Scotland ?

That is odd, and look at the position of "Borders".

CillKenny
10-17-2015, 03:55 PM
A question to those present last Saturday at the RDS - where does Leinster fit in? Is it bunched with the rest of Ireland or is it closer to Devon/Cornwall and perhaps Wales?

Heber
10-17-2015, 04:07 PM
A question to those present last Saturday at the RDS - where does Leinster fit in? Is it bunched with the rest of Ireland or is it closer to Devon/Cornwall and perhaps Wales?

I suspect Ulster 4th from left should read Leinster.
6351
You can see that Leinster12 is closer to Britain than Connacht, Munster and Ulster12 as expected. Ulster13 is even closer to Britain again as expected.
6352

jdean
10-17-2015, 04:36 PM
That is odd, and look at the position of "Borders".

Has got to be said I always struggle with these PCA things : )

Dubhthach
10-17-2015, 05:40 PM
I imagine that "West Scotland" might actually mean "West Lowlands", after all most of Scottish movement as part of Plantation of Ulster had a heavy Lowlands slant. So they might be using it to mean Galloway/Strathclyde etc. As oppose to Highlands/Hebrides which obviously remained majority Gaidhlig speaking until relatively recently.

Contrast 1901 vs. 1971:
http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/siteimages/gaelic%20map%201901.jpg

http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/SiteImages/Gaelic%20Map%201971.jpg

If we remember the PoBI study, there were two clusters showing up in Northern Ireland, one shared with Highlands and another shared with South-West Scotland/Lowlands.

David Mc
10-17-2015, 06:40 PM
That is odd, and look at the position of "Borders".

If they had said "border marches" it would make perfect sense, but not "borders."

rms2
10-17-2015, 06:47 PM
If they had said "border marches" it would make perfect sense, but not "borders."

Maybe if they had said "Cheviots" or "Border Bandits Reivers"? ;)

Heber
10-17-2015, 06:55 PM
I imagine that "West Scotland" might actually mean "West Lowlands", after all most of Scottish movement as part of Plantation of Ulster had a heavy Lowlands slant. So they might be using it to mean Galloway/Strathclyde etc. As oppose to Highlands/Hebrides which obviously remained majority Gaidhlig speaking until relatively recently.

Contrast 1901 vs. 1971:
http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/siteimages/gaelic%20map%201901.jpg

http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/SiteImages/Gaelic%20Map%201971.jpg

If we remember the PoBI study, there were two clusters showing up in Northern Ireland, one shared with Highlands and another shared with South-West Scotland/Lowlands.

I agree. That is what we see in POBI and IDA.

David Mc
10-17-2015, 06:56 PM
Maybe if they had said "Cheviots" or "Border Bandits Reivers"? ;)

Now that's the ticket! :)

Dubhthach
10-17-2015, 07:48 PM
I was having a google around to see if I could find some maps of Scottish Gáidhlig spread in the 18th century, came across instead following page about "Ulster Scots" which has whole set of maps I've never seen before. Very interesting with regards to plantation of Ulster:

http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/images/mapping-ulster-scots-3.jpg

http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/images/mapping-ulster-scots-2.jpg

Some great maps on this page:
http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/mapping-ulster-scots.php

avalon
10-17-2015, 09:05 PM
Orkney would be more northern. I would presume that Ireland would be west. It does appear to show the Brythonic/Gaelic split.

I agree, although I am not sure where this would place the Welsh though? According to the POBI the Welsh appear to have a lot of this Atlantic seaboard element but on this PCA they are quite separate from the Irish.

avalon
10-17-2015, 10:05 PM
If they had said "border marches" it would make perfect sense, but not "borders."

Are you assuming that this is a Scottish-English border cluster?

Don't forget that England has a border with Scotland and with Wales, and for many centuries the English-Welsh frontier was an area of conflict in Saxon and Norman times. :)

I may be wrong but I know that the POBI project has shared data with the Irish DNA Atlas so this "Border" cluster may also include samples from the "Welsh Borders." The POBI project took samples from Herefordshire and Cheshire for their Welsh border samples.

David Mc
10-17-2015, 11:19 PM
Are you assuming that this is a Scottish-English border cluster?

Don't forget that England has a border with Scotland and with Wales, and for many centuries the English-Welsh frontier was an area of conflict in Saxon and Norman times. :)

I may be wrong but I know that the POBI project has shared data with the Irish DNA Atlas so this "Border" cluster may also include samples from the "Welsh Borders." The POBI project took samples from Herefordshire and Cheshire for their Welsh border samples.

Don't worry, Avalon, I haven't forgotten. I promise. :) Usually, though, when one speaks of the "borders" one is talking about the band of land on either side of the English and Scottish borders. I think it would have been useful for them to clarify which border they are referring to, thus the banter between rms and me regarding other options (marches, Cheviots etc). If it is the Anglo-Scottish border, it is odd indeed. Less so if it is the Anglo-Welsh border.

Caratacus
10-17-2015, 11:33 PM
I know it's only fine scale and that basically the British and the Irish are genetically fairly similar to each other but I would have expected the North Welsh and the Irish to be closer to each other on that PCA, being Celtic cousins and all?

Me too, especialy after the PotBI PCA map:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%20PCA%20Map_zpsu4lcbyen.png

The Irish study has put the Scots in quite a different position. Which to believe?

avalon
10-18-2015, 07:29 AM
Ulster was divided into two clusters with native Irish names and British names as expected.
6349
Ireland clusters with Scotland and parts of Scotland Border clusters with parts of Ulster.
You can see that Ulster 12 and 13 cluster differently.
6350

I have updated the board with some of Jean Mancos presentation.
The video update is delayed to the end of October due to a laptop incident.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

What struck me on that PCA that you have kindly provided was how far apart Ulster 12 was from Ulster 13. Ulster 12 being a reflection of the plantation settlers and Ulster 13 being native Irish?

Dubhthach
10-18-2015, 08:30 AM
The question of course is when Welsh and Irish spilt linguistically speaking. So if I recall that article/letter in Nature back in 2003 they calculated the spilt between Irish and Welsh as been circa 1000BC, if that is the case you could be looking at plenty of time for drift to work it's way in. In comparison Ireland and Scotland formed a single cultural unit right up until the early medieval period. (Vikings followed by Normans in sense are wedge that starts to spilt Gaeldom). If anything among the learned elite there was a contuined cultural union right up to about 1600 (the use of "Early Modern Irish" as common literary koine -- as a reference it would be like Shakespeare using Chaucer as a written standard though his spoken standard had moved on).

That and there was constant movement back and forth throughout the 13-16th centuries of various types, such as for example annual migration of Redshank mercenaries during the 16th century to fight under the banners of Gaelic lords etc.

Dubhthach
10-18-2015, 08:33 AM
What struck me on that PCA that you have kindly provided was how far apart Ulster 12 was from Ulster 13. Ulster 12 being a reflection of the plantation settlers and Ulster 13 being native Irish?

It's interesting how Leinster cluster is intermediate between Ulster 12 and Ulster 13, of course given that Leinster contains the "English Pale" ("to be beyond the Pale" originally means to be Gaelic Irish) it's hardly surprising.

Heber
10-19-2015, 02:11 PM
The title of Professor Dan Bradleys talk at GGI2015 was "The Best Bones, Ancient Genomics and Transitions in European Prehistory.
He made the point that the best bones to test for ancient DNA were from the Inner Ear Part of the Human Petrous Bone.
This allows yields up to 177 - fold of traditional sampling techniques and facilitates testing from warmer climates such as Southern Europe and Africa.
He team is working on ancient DNA samples from the Hungarian Plain from NA, BA and IA. No date for publication available.
He also has 20 samples from Ireland from NA, BA and IA. Results should be published within one or two years.
Apart from his Labs work on animal DNA (cattle, horses, fauna) they have also managed to extract DNA from ancient vellum manuscripts with non invasive testing eg from restoration cleaning.

Optimal Ancient DNA Yields from the Inner Ear Part of the Human Petrous Bone

Abstract

The invention and development of next or second generation sequencing methods has resulted in a dramatic transformation of ancient DNA research and allowed shotgun sequencing of entire genomes from fossil specimens. However, although there are exceptions, most fossil specimens contain only low (~ 1% or less) percentages of endogenous DNA. The only skeletal element for which a systematically higher endogenous DNA content compared to other skeletal elements has been shown is the petrous part of the temporal bone. In this study we investigate whether (a) different parts of the petrous bone of archaeological human specimens give different percentages of endogenous DNA yields, (b) there are significant differences in average DNA read lengths, damage patterns and total DNA concentration, and (c) it is possible to obtain endogenous ancient DNA from petrous bones from hot environments. We carried out intra-petrous comparisons for ten petrous bones from specimens from Holocene archaeological contexts across Eurasia dated between 10,000-1,800 calibrated years before present (cal. BP). We obtained shotgun DNA sequences from three distinct areas within the petrous: a spongy part of trabecular bone (part A ), the dense part of cortical bone encircling the osseous inner ear, or otic capsule (part B ), and the dense part within the otic capsule (part C ). Our results confirm that dense bone parts of the petrous bone can provide high endogenous aDNA yields and indicate that endogenous DNA fractions for part C can exceed those obtained for part B by up to 65-fold and those from part A by up to 177-fold, while total endogenous DNA concentrations are up to 126-fold and 109-fold higher for these comparisons. Our results also show that while endogenous yields from part C were lower than 1% for samples from hot (both arid and humid) parts, the DNA damage patterns indicate that at least some of the reads originate from ancient DNA molecules, potentially enabling ancient DNA analyses of samples from hot regions that are otherwise not amenable to ancient DNA analyses.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129102

Dubhthach
10-19-2015, 05:01 PM
Folks in UCD are showing up as involved in number of these papers around Petrous bone aDNA (Ethiopian highland aDNA been one example). Having 20 genomes from Ireland covering period of Neolthic, Bronze and Iron would be extrememly interesting. It would also be great if Petrous bone technique was used with a cohort of remains found in Ballyhanna cemetry up in Donegal. They retrieved 1301 remains which dated from 8th century to 13th century.

Given the huge increase in viable aDNA that can be retrieved I think we are gonna see lot of interesting results over the next 18 months.

-Paul

kevinduffy
10-19-2015, 06:39 PM
The question of course is when Welsh and Irish spilt linguistically speaking. So if I recall that article/letter in Nature back in 2003 they calculated the spilt between Irish and Welsh as been circa 1000BC, if that is the case you could be looking at plenty of time for drift to work it's way in. In comparison Ireland and Scotland formed a single cultural unit right up until the early medieval period. (Vikings followed by Normans in sense are wedge that starts to spilt Gaeldom). If anything among the learned elite there was a contuined cultural union right up to about 1600 (the use of "Early Modern Irish" as common literary koine -- as a reference it would be like Shakespeare using Chaucer as a written standard though his spoken standard had moved on).

That and there was constant movement back and forth throughout the 13-16th centuries of various types, such as for example annual migration of Redshank mercenaries during the 16th century to fight under the banners of Gaelic lords etc.

From what I understand, Gaelic Scotland was largely confined to the Highlands. Eastern Scotland and the Lowlands were largely non-Gaelic if I understand the situation correctly.

MacUalraig
10-19-2015, 06:55 PM
From what I understand, Gaelic Scotland was largely confined to the Highlands. Eastern Scotland and the Lowlands were largely non-Gaelic if I understand the situation correctly.

Depends what period you're talking about. Our oldest surviving Gaelic text is from the parish of Old Deer in Aberdeenshire c. 1120.

Dubhthach
10-19-2015, 07:21 PM
From what I understand, Gaelic Scotland was largely confined to the Highlands. Eastern Scotland and the Lowlands were largely non-Gaelic if I understand the situation correctly.

You'd be surprised tbh, for example Galloway would be western Lowlands, though in that case the gaelicising element is due to Gall-Ghaeil settlement. Up until the time of Alexander III that scottish monarchy was exclusively "Gaelic" in character.

Here's one interperation of linguistic situation around 1200

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Scots_lang-en.svg/564px-Scots_lang-en.svg.png

Even within Lothian, you have a layer of "Gaelic" placenames due to fact that the elite were actually speakers of local dialects of what we could call "Middle Irish", though the common population in Lothian remained "Anglian" speaking.

For example here's map of placenames based on the word "Baile" (which in modern Irish means town)
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map4-w400.png

Likewise placenames containing the word Achadh (Field/pasture)

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map5-w400.png

An old poetic name for Ireland is Achadh Choinn (The field of Conn) or also Achadh Airt (The field of Art -- Art was Conn's son)

Interesting page here talking about expansion of "Scots" (eg. anglian dialect) here:
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/history-of-scots/origins/

Dubhthach
10-19-2015, 07:24 PM
Depends what period you're talking about. Our oldest surviving Gaelic text is from the parish of Old Deer in Aberdeenshire c. 1120.

The relevant margins (notes on side of pages of manuscript) can be read here, along with translation:
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G102007/text001.html

kevinduffy
10-19-2015, 07:49 PM
You also have to remember that the "Highland cluster" is actually "Highlands and Northern Ireland"

To be really accurate it is more a case of "Highlands and part of Northern Ireland".

kevinduffy
10-19-2015, 07:53 PM
Finestructure results suggest that North Wales and Orkney are more distinct than Irish are (taking England as the baseline). On the PCA it's only on dimension 2 that Irish and Scottish are separated from English. Telling how much of this is caused by differing ancestry and how much by drift and founder effects is difficult and would need samples outside the isles and maybe D-stats etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg

Maybe I am reading the graph wrong but it seems to be saying - to me at any rate - that Ireland is more closely related to the rest of Scotland than it is to the Scottish Highlands and Northern Ireland. Surely this can't be correct?

kevinduffy
10-19-2015, 07:56 PM
Ulster was divided into two clusters with native Irish names and British names as expected.
6349
Ireland clusters with Scotland and parts of Scotland Border clusters with parts of Ulster.
You can see that Ulster 12 and 13 cluster differently.
6350

I have updated the board with some of Jean Mancos presentation.
The video update is delayed to the end of October due to a laptop incident.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/

Interesting that Connolly is considered British while Holland, Bryce, Clinton and Barrett are considered Irish.

zamyatin13
10-19-2015, 09:35 PM
The Ulster and Scotland clusters seem odd. The gap between the two Ulster groups seems much larger than the POBI study suggests. This would make some historical sense, as Ulster was said to be the most Gaelic part of the country pre-plantation. However, if you instead list the surnames by Irish/Non-Irish then the average is closer. Is there a case that the clusters are based on what they expected to see.

What does 'Scotland' represent as well? In POBI that included Cumbria and Northumberland, but that doesn't make much sense here, unless it is them that are pulling that cluster towards England.

Are these results of the different criteria in the Irish study, or even a small sample set?

Heber
10-20-2015, 10:31 AM
I have created separate boards for
Munster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-munster/
Connacht
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-connacht/
Leinster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-leinster/
Ulster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-ulster/

They include historic maps, clans, surnames, baronies and DNA Analysis including SNPs, Surnames and Geographic analysis.
I will update them as new data becomes available.
The Irish DNA Atlas appears to pick out the effect of the Plantation of Ulster and the Native Irish and Planter Cluster and the effect of the Pale on Leinster.

avalon
10-20-2015, 06:49 PM
The Ulster and Scotland clusters seem odd. The gap between the two Ulster groups seems much larger than the POBI study suggests. This would make some historical sense, as Ulster was said to be the most Gaelic part of the country pre-plantation. However, if you instead list the surnames by Irish/Non-Irish then the average is closer. Is there a case that the clusters are based on what they expected to see.

What does 'Scotland' represent as well? In POBI that included Cumbria and Northumberland, but that doesn't make much sense here, unless it is them that are pulling that cluster towards England.

Are these results of the different criteria in the Irish study, or even a small sample set?

I am not sure why the PCA of the Irish DNA project is different to the one produced by the POBI project but I am pretty sure that the non-Irish samples seen here come from the POBI data. It just looks like the Irish project has presented the clusters slightly differently.

Looking at the POBI maps, The "Northern Ireland/West Scotland" cluster is distributed mainly in Ulster and Ayrshire but they are also found in Galloway, Cumbria and Northumberland. I am no expert but this does look like a reflection of the Ulster plantation. This cluster is also quite close to England on the PCA, which to me suggest that this cluster has quite a bit of Anglo-Saxon/English genetic input, certainly in comparison to the Irish clusters which are further away.

I think the "Scotland" cluster in this case refers to the other Scottish samples in the POBI which were mostly from Aberdeenshire, NE area.

zamyatin13
10-21-2015, 08:37 AM
I look forward to the official release of data, will be interesting.

I suppose I just can't get my head around the fact that the rest of Scotland would be closer to Ireland than Western Scotland. Think it's maybe just a labelling issue.

Now there are some explanations for the above that I can think of. Norse influence on Western Scotland for example.

Another one would be back migration from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Researching my own family background, I was surprised by the extent of immigration in this direction, about a third of my West Scotland ancestry comes from Ulster, with mainly British surnames. In fact the main source of English-derived surnames in my tree comes from this direction.

However in nearly all surveys I've seen, South-West Scotland seems to have less R1b-U106 than pretty much any other part of Britain, including Wales. That doesn't suggest a lot of English influence, whether through Ulster or elsewhere. How to square the two, not sure really.

MacUalraig
10-21-2015, 09:22 AM
I am not sure why the PCA of the Irish DNA project is different to the one produced by the POBI project but I am pretty sure that the non-Irish samples seen here come from the POBI data. It just looks like the Irish project has presented the clusters slightly differently.

Looking at the POBI maps, The "Northern Ireland/West Scotland" cluster is distributed mainly in Ulster and Ayrshire but they are also found in Galloway, Cumbria and Northumberland. I am no expert but this does look like a reflection of the Ulster plantation. This cluster is also quite close to England on the PCA, which to me suggest that this cluster has quite a bit of Anglo-Saxon/English genetic input, certainly in comparison to the Irish clusters which are further away.

I think the "Scotland" cluster in this case refers to the other Scottish samples in the POBI which were mostly from Aberdeenshire, NE area.

Sometimes there are so many layers of migrations its impossible to unwrap them. Using relative rather than absolute density plots can be a useful guide. Typically recent Irish migrants show up heavily in Lanarkshire, Lancashire and Northumberland but these hotspots disappear in relative number mapping (you can do this very easily in Steve Archer's Surname Atlas). Ayrshire is particularly tricky. For example there are tons of Kennedys in the area around Maybole and Girvan which used to be the major seats of the cadet branches of the Scottish clan but they are mostly 'Irish'. These became weaving towns in the 19th century especially, and grew rapidly off the back of what was often reverse Irish migration.

MacUalraig
10-21-2015, 09:26 AM
Another one would be back migration from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Researching my own family background, I was surprised by the extent of immigration in this direction, about a third of my West Scotland ancestry comes from Ulster, with mainly British surnames. In fact the main source of English-derived surnames in my tree comes from this direction.



This is quite normal, if not an underestimate of the proportion. Sometimes of course the trail goes cold before you've proved it for sure. I have a Higgins ancestor in northern Ayrshire for example who I presume to be of Irish origin but I can't demonstrate it.

MacUalraig
10-21-2015, 09:58 AM
The relevant margins (notes on side of pages of manuscript) can be read here, along with translation:
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G102007/text001.html

There is a very good recent book about it from Four Courts Press in Dublin, mostly by Glasgow university scholars, whilst of course the book itself is in Cambridge!

zamyatin13
10-21-2015, 03:33 PM
This is quite normal, if not an underestimate of the proportion. Sometimes of course the trail goes cold before you've proved it for sure. I have a Higgins ancestor in northern Ayrshire for example who I presume to be of Irish origin but I can't demonstrate it.

That is a good point. In fact, when I discount the (ahem) unknown parentage on the tree, the Irish portion rises to over 40% of known ancestry. There are also a few that I suspect might have an Irish link but can't track back far enough. Overall, it's probably pushing 45-50% of total ancestry, which is a fair old chunk.

avalon
10-21-2015, 07:11 PM
I look forward to the official release of data, will be interesting.

I suppose I just can't get my head around the fact that the rest of Scotland would be closer to Ireland than Western Scotland. Think it's maybe just a labelling issue.

Now there are some explanations for the above that I can think of. Norse influence on Western Scotland for example.

Another one would be back migration from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Researching my own family background, I was surprised by the extent of immigration in this direction, about a third of my West Scotland ancestry comes from Ulster, with mainly British surnames. In fact the main source of English-derived surnames in my tree comes from this direction.

However in nearly all surveys I've seen, South-West Scotland seems to have less R1b-U106 than pretty much any other part of Britain, including Wales. That doesn't suggest a lot of English influence, whether through Ulster or elsewhere. How to square the two, not sure really.

I am no expert on Scottish history but the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria included SE Scotland and then later you have the Anglo-Norman influence during the middle ages and also the language shift to Scots (basically a dialect of old English) throughout the Scottish Lowlands by 1500. To me, there is enough there historically to account for Southern Scotland being pulled towards England on this PCA.

I don't think that R1b-U106 is good indicator in this case because the Irish DNA project is based on autosomalDNA, which shows overall ancestry rather than just the y-dna, which depending on when a certain y-dna haplogroup arrived in an area and in what sort of numbers, may not tell us anything about overall ancestry of these clusters.

on edit. Having just looked again at the POBI maps, there were hardly any samples from Galloway. Most of the samples that they have labelled SW Scotland appear to be from Ayrshire/Strathclyde. Don't know if it makes any difference.

6381

Heber
10-24-2015, 08:03 PM
You can listen here to Gianpiero Cavalleri give his expert talk in The National Library of Ireland during the Summer on The Irish DNA Atlas. He gets into the heart of the subject from about 10:00.

http://www.eneclann.ie/2015/10/podcaststhe-irish-dna-atlas-gianpiero-cavalleri/

The more recent talk by Ed Gilbert at GGI2015 had more detail but the talk will not be available until November.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-atlas/

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 10:44 AM
7-800 years for seperation of Travellers from Settled Irish population (with caveat that consanguinity within traveller community could inflate that). Given that Travellers by and large have native Irish surnames than a seperation in middle ages makes sense. Particulary when you consider the fact that the Norman's arrived in the late 12th century leading to conflict/increase in nomadism within Gaelic Ireland. (Gaelic Ireland had certain levels of Nomadism anyways linked to Pastoralism)

-Paul

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 12:14 PM
I am no expert on Scottish history but the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria included SE Scotland and then later you have the Anglo-Norman influence during the middle ages and also the language shift to Scots (basically a dialect of old English) throughout the Scottish Lowlands by 1500. To me, there is enough there historically to account for Southern Scotland being pulled towards England on this PCA.

I don't think that R1b-U106 is good indicator in this case because the Irish DNA project is based on autosomalDNA, which shows overall ancestry rather than just the y-dna, which depending on when a certain y-dna haplogroup arrived in an area and in what sort of numbers, may not tell us anything about overall ancestry of these clusters.

on edit. Having just looked again at the POBI maps, there were hardly any samples from Galloway. Most of the samples that they have labelled SW Scotland appear to be from Ayrshire/Strathclyde. Don't know if it makes any difference.

6381

From listening to podcast it sounds like they did sample Y-DNA as part of atlas project. He mentions Jobling in University of Leicester. So perhaps we might get a breakdown of Y-DNA results of male members of Irish DNA atlas when they eventually publish a paper.

I do think PoBI sampling in Scotland is rather poor to be honest, they obviously have very large data set from Orkney, but even their hebrides sample set looks quite small.

zamyatin13
10-26-2015, 04:06 PM
I agree about the PoBI sampling in Scotland being poor.

As it happens I got a chance to visit the Celts exhibition at the British Museum recently (which was excellent). They presented the PoBI data as part of it, with a particularly clear map. I took the picture below, and got a few funny looks for doing so I'd imagine as it looked the least spectacular exhibit in the place.

6442

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 04:18 PM
Indeed looking at that image, you can see they had no samples from Skye, Jura, Mull, Tiree (basically any of Inner Hebrides other than Islay), looks like three samples from entire Outer Hebrides!! (You'd imagine given Norse settlement that Outer Hebrides might spilt off, if there was big enough sample, of course linguistically it's Gaidhlig speaking today)

No samples from Caithness either which is across from Orkney, it's kinda like they went "Scotland, who needs em, meh!"

On related note an Isle of Man sample would have been nice to have, as well as some central Wales (I know there's mountains, but still people live there) etc.

David Mc
10-26-2015, 07:45 PM
I can't help but notice Cumbria seems to be extensively represented compared to other regions as well. I wonder why that is? It's particularly striking when comparing the numbers to SW Scotland, but Cumbria seems to have been far more thoroughly tested than many English regions.

David Mc
10-26-2015, 07:46 PM
I'm not complaining, incidentally. It would just be nice to see the numbers in other regions elevated to match Cumbria.

jdean
10-26-2015, 08:08 PM
Indeed looking at that image, you can see they had no samples from Skye, Jura, Mull, Tiree (basically any of Inner Hebrides other than Islay), looks like three samples from entire Outer Hebrides!! (You'd imagine given Norse settlement that Outer Hebrides might spilt off, if there was big enough sample, of course linguistically it's Gaidhlig speaking today)

No samples from Caithness either which is across from Orkney, it's kinda like they went "Scotland, who needs em, meh!"

On related note an Isle of Man sample would have been nice to have, as well as some central Wales (I know there's mountains, but still people live there) etc.

My daughter and her boyfriend decided to walk from Pembrokeshire across the Brecon Beacons towards Abergavenny the summer before last. At least that was the idea, they got half way before deciding the weather had them beat : ) but they only saw one other person (in the distance) in two days. It's not the easiest place to live though, lacking roads apart from anything else : )

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 08:25 PM
Sure but there's about 133,000 people living in Powys and at most they perhaps sampled 2-3 going off the map above, ye imagine more samples from the Welsh Marches (either side of Offa's dyke) would add bit more to Welsh story.

jdean
10-26-2015, 08:55 PM
Sure but there's about 133,000 people living in Powys and at most they perhaps sampled 2-3 going off the map above, ye imagine more samples from the Welsh Marches (either side of Offa's dyke) would add bit more to Welsh story.

No arguments there !!!

avalon
10-27-2015, 07:40 PM
Indeed looking at that image, you can see they had no samples from Skye, Jura, Mull, Tiree (basically any of Inner Hebrides other than Islay), looks like three samples from entire Outer Hebrides!! (You'd imagine given Norse settlement that Outer Hebrides might spilt off, if there was big enough sample, of course linguistically it's Gaidhlig speaking today)

No samples from Caithness either which is across from Orkney, it's kinda like they went "Scotland, who needs em, meh!"

On related note an Isle of Man sample would have been nice to have, as well as some central Wales (I know there's mountains, but still people live there) etc.

Yeh, the Scottish sampling was poor on the whole. They got fairly good samples from Aberdeenshire and Moray but the highlands and islands of Scotland had very few samples.

I can't think why they would ignore certain regions so I am guessing that they simply struggled to recruit volunteers (perhaps due to marketing) for the project in sparsely populated areas such as the Scottish Highlands and Central Wales. The project also set criteria that participants had to have all four grandparents born within a 40 mile radius so this might further reduce the availability of local recruits.

2000
10-27-2015, 09:03 PM
I imagine that "West Scotland" might actually mean "West Lowlands", after all most of Scottish movement as part of Plantation of Ulster had a heavy Lowlands slant. So they might be using it to mean Galloway/Strathclyde etc. As oppose to Highlands/Hebrides which obviously remained majority Gaidhlig speaking until relatively recently.

Contrast 1901 vs. 1971:
http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/siteimages/gaelic%20map%201901.jpg

http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/SiteImages/Gaelic%20Map%201971.jpg

If we remember the PoBI study, there were two clusters showing up in Northern Ireland, one shared with Highlands and another shared with South-West Scotland/Lowlands.

And another representing North England. That made me wonder if some areas were a mix of north English and West Scots type showing up as South Scottish if that can happen

They showed the west Scot area covering highlands, isles, and somewhat lowlands but largely Argyle & surroundings IIRC

2000
10-27-2015, 09:08 PM
Were the Borders heavily Gaelicized by colonization? I never got that impression, in spite of the popular surname Scott. I thought they were largely Brythonic and a mix that could be called Anglo Saxon. T me they look at home, if a bit more north than expected

In reply to RMS's post about where the Borders show up relative to Scots, Irish, Welsh

2000
10-27-2015, 09:09 PM
cattle rustlers, like the Irish

2000
10-27-2015, 09:35 PM
As I understand it, most of the aristocracy spoke Gaelic until sometime in the high middle ages when English (or whatever medieval spelling they used to describe it) became more important via trade and the burgher class

replying to Kevin Duffy wrt his comment on Gaelic Scots speakers

2000
10-27-2015, 10:26 PM
Looking at the POBI maps, The "Northern Ireland/West Scotland" cluster is distributed mainly in Ulster and Ayrshire but they are also found in Galloway, Cumbria and Northumberland. I am no expert but this does look like a reflection of the Ulster plantation. This cluster is also quite close to England on the PCA, which to me suggest that this cluster has quite a bit of Anglo-Saxon/English genetic input, certainly in comparison to the Irish clusters which are further away.


What map? http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/_asset/image/pobi-map-jpg.jpeg this shows islands and Argyle as West. Do you mean South? Are there different maps

2000
10-27-2015, 10:34 PM
Hey, who really cares? Most people are interested in establishing their pedigree. That is rather more recent than stone age origins.

I could care less about a pedigree or my DNA with regards to King this or Queen that. I'm here for the light it sheds on history.

rms2
10-27-2015, 11:55 PM
I'm interested both in deep ancestry and in my own pedigree, although I don't care a hoot about any connections to royalty (unless they yield some sort of profitable windfall).

avalon
10-28-2015, 03:02 PM
What map? http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/_asset/image/pobi-map-jpg.jpeg this shows islands and Argyle as West. Do you mean South? Are there different maps

Looking in more detail I think the confusion is over the labelling used by the two different projects. What the Irish project is calling the "N.Ireland/West Scotland" cluster is the same cluster that the POBI project called the "N.Ireland/Southern Scotland" which we can see in your map as the yellow circles in Northern England, Strathclyde and Ulster.

It looks to me as though the Irish project has taken the lime green triangles from Ulster and put them in to its "Ireland" cluster which makes sense because the lime green triangles appear to be more of a Gaelic cluster than the yellow circles cluster which has more a pull towards England (hence why it is likely linked to the Plantation).

Basically the two projects are presenting the data in slightly different ways, I think.

2000
10-28-2015, 09:29 PM
It is confusing and it raises the question of how representative the POBI samples are as well. There seem to be 26 (hard to estimate the Belfast area) S Scot/NI to 7 W Scot/NI and 1 Northumbrian. Using religion (Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but for a rough approximation it should suffice) as a gauge of ancestry, a quick look at NI demographics shows a split of 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, and most of the remainder either refusing to answer or giving no religion. Assuming a similar spilt on the non religious/refused to answer group then roughly 1/2 the population is of Irish ancestry, yet only 7/34 show up as W Scot/NI. That would suggest either the sampling was biased or the majority of the nationalist community are secretly British :\

alan
10-28-2015, 10:15 PM
It is confusing and it raises the question of how representative the POBI samples are as well. There seem to be 26 (hard to estimate the Belfast area) S Scot/NI to 7 W Scot/NI and 1 Northumbrian. Using religion (Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but for a rough approximation it should suffice) as a gauge of ancestry, a quick look at NI demographics shows a split of 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, and most of the remainder either refusing to answer or giving no religion. Assuming a similar spilt on the non religious/refused to answer group then roughly 1/2 the population is of Irish ancestry, yet only 7/34 show up as W Scot/NI. That would suggest either the sampling was biased or the majority of the nationalist community are secretly British :\

The problem is that the 17th century AD British plantation of Ulster was just the last in 1000s of years of movement across the narrow channel between NE Ireland and western Scotland so the many of the planters were very similar to the Irish of the area.

2000
10-28-2015, 11:26 PM
The problem is that the 17th century AD British plantation of Ulster was just the last in 1000s of years of movement across the narrow channel between NE Ireland and western Scotland so the many of the planters were very similar to the Irish of the area.

I understand and that is what I presumed was responsible for all the yellow circles originally on the POBI map (reflected similarly in the M222 distribution heavily in Ulster and SW Scotland) and assumed much of the northern half of Ireland would be similar. But if the other analysis Heber posted showing what was referred to as west Scot/NI is the same as POBI South Scot/NI, it's closer to England than Scotland is and distinct to the rest of Ireland. So the presumption I draw is most Ulster nationalists are more like the English than the Scots or there is a bias in POBI. I could see some distinction but that appears excessive.

avalon
10-29-2015, 08:27 PM
It is confusing and it raises the question of how representative the POBI samples are as well. There seem to be 26 (hard to estimate the Belfast area) S Scot/NI to 7 W Scot/NI and 1 Northumbrian. Using religion (Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but for a rough approximation it should suffice) as a gauge of ancestry, a quick look at NI demographics shows a split of 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, and most of the remainder either refusing to answer or giving no religion. Assuming a similar spilt on the non religious/refused to answer group then roughly 1/2 the population is of Irish ancestry, yet only 7/34 show up as W Scot/NI. That would suggest either the sampling was biased or the majority of the nationalist community are secretly British :\

I don't think that the POBI samples are statistically representative of the whole of Ulster because the project relied on volunteers so you can only sample whoever comes forward. But I do think the POBI project collected enough samples to split Ulster into two groups, the yellow circles and the lime green triangles. Looking at the supplementary paper from the POBI paper, the yellow circles and the lime green triangles only split apart at K=17 they so they are actually close genetically. But the yellow circles cluster is also distributed in Cumbria (10 circles to my eye) and Northumberland (9 circles) and on the PCA charts the yellow circles are closer to the main English cluster than the lime green triangles are.

So it looks to me as though the yellow circles cluster has a bit more of what you might call "English" input from history, meaning that in a broad sense such as Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Norman, etc.

Heber
11-06-2015, 01:57 PM
Part 3 of a 5 part series.
It discusses the Ulster - Scotland connection.

http://beta.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/alistair-moffat-long-lasting-genetic-divide-in-scotland-1-3939724?sdfsdfsdfsdfsf#axzz3qiZUWaJz

MacUalraig
11-06-2015, 03:15 PM
Part 3 of a 5 part series.
It discusses the Ulster - Scotland connection.

http://beta.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/alistair-moffat-long-lasting-genetic-divide-in-scotland-1-3939724?sdfsdfsdfsdfsf#axzz3qiZUWaJz

Fascinating that they have now focussed down the tree a bit on S661. They also told me last year that S568 was strongly Scottish which may account for it. A shame they missed FGC4077, the third branch, when they went to design.

Dubhthach
11-06-2015, 03:30 PM
I don't think that the POBI samples are statistically representative of the whole of Ulster because the project relied on volunteers so you can only sample whoever comes forward. But I do think the POBI project collected enough samples to split Ulster into two groups, .

Northern Ireland ≠ Ulster -- they didn't sample from Donegal, Monaghan or Cavan. Irish DNA Atlas at least has sampling from entire province of Ulster.

Dubhthach
11-06-2015, 03:33 PM
Fascinating that they have now focussed down the tree a bit on S661. They also told me last year that S568 was strongly Scottish which may account for it. A shame they missed FGC4077, the third branch, when they went to design.

Indeed, I did an analysis of M222 bundle results in Ireland project recently (with revised figures from earlier). Here's the breakdown for reference (copy/pasted from post on facebook)

----

So slightly larger cohort, n=138:

FGC4077+ = 18 (12.95% of total sample)
S568+ = 3 (2.16% of total sample)
DF104* = 1 (0.72% -- individual was DF105-)
DF105+ = 115 (82.73% of all individuals -- all DF105+ were DF104+)

The DF105 (n=115) breaks down as following:
DF85+ = 28 -- 24.35% of DF105+ men (20.29% of M222 sample)
S588+ = 25 -- 21.74% of DF105+ men (18.12% of M222 sample)
A260+ = 27 -- 23.48% of DF105+ men (19.57% of M222 sample)
DF105* (S588-, A260-, DF85-) = 35 -- 30.43% of DF105+ men (25.36%)

There's probably a couple of undiscovered groups sitting in the DF105* group that need BigY testing to find.

Several of these SNP's are showing somewhat geographic bias based on surname evidence so far. A260 (or more specifically it's parent A259 -- not included in bundle) appears linked to Uí Briúin type surnames, DF85 to Cenel Conaill surnames, several Cenel nEogain type surnames appear to be S588.

There's at least one O'Hara who is FGC4077+ (Lugine?), several Uí Fiachrach type surname show up as DF105*. Early days still but the advent of BigY and multiple branching SNP's is allowing us to slice up the monolith that is M222.

What's very obviously though is how dominant DF105 is within Irish M222 (82.7% of total sample above!)

----

S661 in ScotlandsDNA terms is DF104, it would be interesting if they outlined if their sample has S661+ (DF104+) men who are DF105-, given how dominant DF105 is among Irish sampling. FGC4077+ makes up close on 13% of sample which is respectable enough.

MacUalraig
11-06-2015, 03:51 PM
A223 seems to be consolidating its position in Carrick/Galloway especially now we have a McCord in there too, to add to the Kennedy-Ferguson-McIlveen bunch.

avalon
11-06-2015, 04:02 PM
Northern Ireland ≠ Ulster -- they didn't sample from Donegal, Monaghan or Cavan. Irish DNA Atlas at least has sampling from entire province of Ulster.

Fair point. Me being careless there. I should have said Northern Ireland, not Ulster.

Dubhthach
11-06-2015, 04:08 PM
A223 seems to be consolidating its position in Carrick/Galloway especially now we have a McCord in there too, to add to the Kennedy-Ferguson-McIlveen bunch.

Well I just had a quick look at my 138 M222 bundle dataset. 3 of them are A223+, here are the surnames:


$ grep A223+ bundle-20151031 | cut -f2
Cannon
DeVenney
Rourke Frew

Interesting another A223+ Cannon had just got his BigY results in, that should be interesting.

MacUalraig
11-06-2015, 04:12 PM
Well I just had a quick look at my 138 M222 bundle dataset. 3 of them are A223+, here are the surnames:


$ grep A223+ bundle-20151031 | cut -f2
Cannon
DeVenney
Rourke Frew

Interesting another A223+ Cannon had just got his BigY results in, that should be interesting.

Frew is slightly curious, there is a bunch in Ayrshire but I think they arrived in the 1600s from their origin in Perthshire. Cannon is theorised to be from Galloway, according to one Galloway expert... :-)

moesan
11-07-2015, 01:14 PM
I don't know if it has been mentioned before but S-W Scotland (Galloway, Ayr) has known gaelic speakers until very late (18°C?) if I believe hat I red. Surey this gaelic became seldom enough since the 16°C. this stronghold of gaelic could be the proof of a strong enough demic colonization there by old Scots but it could have encouraged the interrelations between later North Irish people and SW Scotmen? I' would not be surprised if some evident enough differences survived between S-W and S-E (Borders and Edinburgh region) Scotland concerning DNA. Concerning surnames, I'm not sure Ayrshire is a hotspot of modern Irish emigration; I think Glasgow industrial region is more a target.
Anthropology has shown differences (not total barrier) between Catholics and Protestants in Northern ireland, and even if the two communities are not evenly distributed there, the religion (and politic choices) could have more imput than geography. or we have to speak of "micro-geogrpahy" (neighbourhoods, districts)
concerning the POBI study I think as others here some regions has badly been covered, helas!

Dubhthach
11-11-2015, 01:48 PM
In context of Galloway the language was actually more akin to Irish than Scottish Gaidhlig, you could argue it was intermediate form and is generally believe to have spread into region from 9th century onwards in context of the Gall-Ghaeil (Eg. Norse-Gael's)

MacUalraig
11-11-2015, 04:39 PM
I don't know if it has been mentioned before but S-W Scotland (Galloway, Ayr) has known gaelic speakers until very late (18°C?) if I believe hat I red. Surey this gaelic became seldom enough since the 16°C. this stronghold of gaelic could be the proof of a strong enough demic colonization there by old Scots but it could have encouraged the interrelations between later North Irish people and SW Scotmen? I' would not be surprised if some evident enough differences survived between S-W and S-E (Borders and Edinburgh region) Scotland concerning DNA. Concerning surnames, I'm not sure Ayrshire is a hotspot of modern Irish emigration; I think Glasgow industrial region is more a target.
Anthropology has shown differences (not total barrier) between Catholics and Protestants in Northern ireland, and even if the two communities are not evenly distributed there, the religion (and politic choices) could have more imput than geography. or we have to speak of "micro-geogrpahy" (neighbourhoods, districts)
concerning the POBI study I think as others here some regions has badly been covered, helas!

You couldn't be more wrong about Ayrshire. To take just one example, here is a quote about Girvan, one of the old Kennedy clan seats (at Girvanmains), from the Second Statistical Account of the parish written in the 1830s.

"On comparing the above state of the parish with that in 1791, it would seem that, in few places of Scotland, has the population increased in such rapid proportion as in Girvan. This has been chiefly owing to the encouragment given to the building of small houses in the town, which are soon filled with the lowest orders of the people of Ireland, who come over with the view of obtaining employment in the weaving of cotton. "

There were also workers who came across to work the coal seam which runs all the way across the central belt starting in north Ayrshire through Lanarkshire all the way to the Lothians. Often you can track Irish Kennedy families following the seam eastwards.

alan
11-11-2015, 05:36 PM
One thing not to forget is Northern Irish catholics are largely the descendants of the largest autonomous Gaelic area of pre-plantation Ireland 'the great Irishry'. The north of Ireland also had very little Norman input of any lasting nature except a few tiny coastal strongholds. It also had no long lasting Viking settlements while the rest of Ireland had most of its cities founded on Viking towns. There is then of course the well known strong sectarian divisions which meant that despite the large British plantation in the 17th century they lived largely separate apartheid style until very recent times (even still do in working class urban areas and rural villages). So, in the Catholics of northern Ireland you have a population that is the most superconcentrated in pre-Viking,pre-Norman genes in Ireland, probably 90-odd% of native pre-Viking Irish ancestry. The only external input into the northern Irish catholic population was some Scottish highlanders in the form of Galloglasses (tiny numbers though) and around the Antrim coast from Kintyre in the late Medieval era and even they came from the bit of Scotland that was part of Irish Dalriada in earlier times so would have been genetically very similar and was culturally nearly identical. So while Northern Ireland is seen as the most British part of Ireland and with the most non-native Irish, the catholic population of that area are in many ways the most undiluted representatives of the pre-Viking, pre-Norman Gaelic Irish. I personally think appearance wise northern catholics are most like north Connaught areas like Roscommon, Sligo. Mayo than they are with say most of Leinster or Munster.

Main thing I think links the north/north-west type of Irish is kind of broad cheekbones, squarish rather than long thin faces, super-high amount of blue eyes, lots of freckles and a big ginger minority despite a lot of brown hair.

zamyatin13
11-11-2015, 09:05 PM
You couldn't be more wrong about Ayrshire. To take just one example, here is a quote about Girvan, one of the old Kennedy clan seats (at Girvanmains), from the Second Statistical Account of the parish written in the 1830s.

"On comparing the above state of the parish with that in 1791, it would seem that, in few places of Scotland, has the population increased in such rapid proportion as in Girvan. This has been chiefly owing to the encouragment given to the building of small houses in the town, which are soon filled with the lowest orders of the people of Ireland, who come over with the view of obtaining employment in the weaving of cotton. "

I'd second that. Towns in South Ayrshire like Girvan and Maybole had very large Irish populations, including many of my own ancestors. They tended to then spread out over the rest of Ayrshire (and elsewhere) once the weaving/shoe trades dried up. I'd wager that a large proportion of Ayrshire ancestry in general has come from Ireland in the last 250 years.

The surnames involved were majority 'Ulster Scot', with some Irish and some English, generally in that order (from personal observation). This means that the migration is somewhat invisible, as they tended to marry into the local community eventually, and surnames as well as religious differences are pretty minimal.

moesan
11-11-2015, 09:07 PM
You couldn't be more wrong about Ayrshire. To take just one example, here is a quote about Girvan, one of the old Kennedy clan seats (at Girvanmains), from the Second Statistical Account of the parish written in the 1830s.

"On comparing the above state of the parish with that in 1791, it would seem that, in few places of Scotland, has the population increased in such rapid proportion as in Girvan. This has been chiefly owing to the encouragment given to the building of small houses in the town, which are soon filled with the lowest orders of the people of Ireland, who come over with the view of obtaining employment in the weaving of cotton. "

There were also workers who came across to work the coal seam which runs all the way across the central belt starting in north Ayrshire through Lanarkshire all the way to the Lothians. Often you can track Irish Kennedy families following the seam eastwards.

I gave my impression based upon a variated but scarce sample of names in total Ayrshire - so I can very well be wrong - but the examples you give here are spotty and concerns (seemingly) only some precise places;and the coal work they mention is at the borders of North Ayrshire with other shires. But I'm have not evidence enough at hand to discuss your point - thanks for answer, all the way.
&: were all the irish pople named Kennedy?
oidhche vath.

Heber
11-15-2015, 03:19 PM
The analysis of the Irish DNA Atlas results is ongoing and some of the results are dramatic and will require a reinterpretation of conventional history. I have asked them to do a pre publication to allow as much review as possible prior to final publication.

MacUalraig
11-15-2015, 03:55 PM
I gave my impression based upon a variated but scarce sample of names in total Ayrshire - so I can very well be wrong - but the examples you give here are spotty and concerns (seemingly) only some precise places;and the coal work they mention is at the borders of North Ayrshire with other shires. But I'm have not evidence enough at hand to discuss your point - thanks for answer, all the way.
&: were all the irish pople named Kennedy?
oidhche vath.

Studying Irish migration into Scotland is a key part of my one-name study. If anyone wants some academic input here are a couple of the books I find particularly useful, both have chapters by the late Bernard Aspinwall whose lectures I attended across the road at Glasgow University. They cover both religions and in one chapter attempt to demarcate sectarian settlement patterns in Glasgow using onomastic data.

New Perspectives on The Irish in Scotland ed. Martin Mitchell

http://www.birlinn.co.uk/New-Perspectives-on-the-Irish-in-Scotland-9781904607830.html

Irish immigrants and Scottish society in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries ed. Tom Devine

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Immigrants-Scottish-Nineteenth-Twentieth-Centuries/dp/0859763188

rms2
11-15-2015, 08:30 PM
The analysis of the Irish DNA Atlas results is ongoing and some of the results are dramatic and will require a reinterpretation of conventional history. I have asked them to do a pre publication to allow as much review as possible prior to final publication.

That sounds exciting, but I am much more interested in Dan Bradley's anticipated ancient dna results. Now those should really tell us something.

Jessie
11-16-2015, 01:44 AM
The analysis of the Irish DNA Atlas results is ongoing and some of the results are dramatic and will require a reinterpretation of conventional history. I have asked them to do a pre publication to allow as much review as possible prior to final publication.

Is that to do with population turn over during the Bronze Age? Any hints?

Heber
11-22-2015, 06:12 PM
Plans for US teens free birthright program in Ireland revealed

"The Minister for Diaspora Affairs, Jimmy Deenihan TD, launched two new initiatives on Saturday: the Global Irish Media Fund and a pilot summer camp program, designed to enhance connections with the Irish diaspora for high schoool students aged between 15 to 17 from the U.S. and elsewhere. Final details will be announced in December....
The program will be referred to as Preamhacha, Irish for roots, is based on the Israeli Taglit-Birthright scheme. The USA will be the first participating country with more countries to come.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Minister-Deenihan-announces-2016-summer-camp-program-for-teens-.html

There is probably a role for genetic genealogy including the Irish DNA Atlas to help connect them to their genetic homeland.

Piquerobi
11-22-2015, 06:45 PM
If Neolithic Irish samples turn out plotting near Sardinians, which I kind of expect (knowing already that's where all Neolithic Europeans so far have landed), one can only but conclude the shift there was huge...

Heber
11-22-2015, 08:35 PM
Is that to do with population turn over during the Bronze Age? Any hints?

I suspect it has to do with results mapping to the four provinces and two clusters within the Ulster province as expected ie Gaelic and Planter. However all clusters converging at a previous time apparently within Ireland. So not Iron Age but probably Bronze Age or earlier.
I hope they agree to a preprint so that we can review and provide feedback.
I would expect something circa 2/16.

I recommended they (RCSI) coordinate with the latest findings of Pinhasi and Bradley who are in Universities (TCD and UCD) in the same town and who are doing work on ancient DNA.

Heber
12-10-2015, 08:55 AM
Maurice has posted Jeans GGI2015 presentation.
"The Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 Lectures - Jean Manco presents a fascinating up-to-date collation of archaeological, historical, linguistic, & genetic evidence that brings to life the reach and influence of the Celts in Europe & particularly in Ireland ... "

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R8EPdM-pCZU

Some of the original soundtrack is missing and we do not get the lively Q&A and warm applause for Jean's excellent presentation.

Jean M
12-10-2015, 12:22 PM
Maurice has posted Jeans GGI2015 presentation...Some of the original soundtrack is missing and we do not get the lively Q&A and warm applause for Jean's excellent presentation.

Maurice asked me to re-record it, as his lap-top crashed the night before, so he could not record the talks that day in his usual manner. He used his iPhone if I recall rightly, and apparently it picked up a lot of background noise.

Heber
12-11-2015, 03:06 PM
Here is an short update on ISOGG Ireland at GGI2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSLgFgykSBQ

Dubhthach
12-17-2015, 12:58 PM
Excellent presentation from Dr. Cathy Swift "Of Mice & Viking Men"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kJFFlN0Pts&feature=youtu.be

Some of her papers can be read here:
https://limerick.academia.edu/catherineswift

Jean M
12-17-2015, 03:17 PM
Excellent presentation from Dr. Cathy Swift "Of Mice & Viking Men"

I was in the audience for that. Very good indeed. I had a feeling that I knew what was coming, because I included the interesting mouse study in AJ, but she has much more to say. I'll happily watch it again.

Heber
01-10-2016, 11:44 AM
Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

Lara M. Cassidya,1, Rui Martinianoa,1, Eileen M. Murphyb, Matthew D. Teasdalea, James Malloryb, Barrie Hartwellb, and Daniel G. Bradleya,2

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.abstract

Significance

Modern Europe has been shaped by two episodes in prehistory, the advent of agriculture and later metallurgy. These innovations brought not only massive cultural change but also, in certain parts of the continent, a change in genetic structure. The manner in which these transitions affected the islands of Ireland and Britain on the northwestern edge of the continent remains the subject of debate. The first ancient whole genomes from Ireland, including two at high coverage, demonstrate that large-scale genetic shifts accompanied both transitions. We also observe a strong signal of continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze Age individuals, one of whom is a carrier for the C282Y hemochromatosis mutation, which has its highest frequencies in Ireland today.

I have written to the IDA team and asked them to incorporate these results prior to publication. If there is strong continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze age individuals of Rathlin, then we should be able to extract a lot more information from projects such as IDA and POBI. I believe POBI should be updated to reflect the latest aDNA discoveries.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-insular-atlantic-genome/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-atlas/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/

Siresker
02-07-2016, 12:00 AM
Hello,
this is my first post here and I'm new to DNA but I was just confirmed R-A223 today and picked up on the reference to it's emergence in Carrick/Galloway.......I'm a Kelly living in Galway with an oldest known male Kelly ancestor was born in Galway 1781 as is another recent A223 positive Kelly testee living in the USA who also has an oldest Kelly male ancestor born in Galway 1815 about 20 miles away from my own oldest male ancestor, there is a genetic distance of 3 between us on y37......he has also tested A-822 downstream of A-223. Is Kelly a surname that is known in this area of Scotland. My 1781 ancestor lived in the middle of Kelly Ui Maine territory but neither myself of the Kelly gentleman in the USA seem to be connected to any Galway/Roscommon Kelly's, Laois/Southern Kelly's, Meath Kelly's in the FTDNA Kelly Project.

Heber
02-10-2016, 07:36 PM
Epic Ireland CHQ
I organised a visit to Epic Ireland CHQ for the ISOGG crew and GGI2015 speakers last October. Here is a preview of the exhibit which will open in May 2016 and hopefully we will visit the live event following GGI2016.
We will try to introduce some Genetic Genealogy stories.
Perhaps the Irish DNA Atlas or the Bell Beaker story. I have a particular preference for Ely O Carroll and DF21.

http://epicirelandchq.com/

Jessie
03-04-2016, 12:33 PM
When are they ever going to release more information on this? I hope we don't have to wait too much longer.

Heber
03-09-2016, 03:50 AM
Ed Gilbert will give an update on the Irish DNA Atlas at WDYTYA in Birmingham NEC on Friday 8th April.

http://cruwys.blogspot.hk/2016/03/the-dna-lecture-schedule-for-who-do-you.html?m=1

rms2
03-16-2016, 11:43 PM
What happened to the test results of the Guinness family? I forget the current leading family member's name (Patrick?). Didn't he say something about possibly being DF41+? What happened to that? Any updates?

Dubhthach
03-17-2016, 09:37 AM
I could be wrong but I think Patrick Guinness in one of the GGI talks mentioned his line was M222+ -- again I could be remembering wrong.

Heber
03-17-2016, 11:02 AM
I could be wrong but I think Patrick Guinness in one of the GGI talks mentioned his line was M222+ -- again I could be remembering wrong.

Paul,
You will be happy to know that his line is DF41.
However I don't know if that means he will sponsor a Guinness for the DF41 family on St Patrick's day.
His Guinness line is related to the McCartan and Dunleavy line of Downpatrick.
General de Gaulles McCartan line is related to the chiefly McCartans of that area. He is featured in Epic Ireland.
I suggested to Patrick that he upgrade to Big Y and update the genetic genealogy component of his book Arthur's Round which is the biography of his famous ancestor.

http://epicirelandchq.com/

Dubhthach
03-17-2016, 11:33 AM
Paul,
You will be happy to know that his line is DF41.
However I don't know if that means he will sponsor a Guinness for the DF41 family on St Patrick's day.


Don't think the other-half will be too impressed when I give her that excuse ;)

rms2
03-17-2016, 03:34 PM
Paul,
You will be happy to know that his line is DF41.
However I don't know if that means he will sponsor a Guinness for the DF41 family on St Patrick's day.
His Guinness line is related to the McCartan and Dunleavy line of Downpatrick.
General de Gaulles McCartan line is related to the chiefly McCartans of that area. He is featured in Epic Ireland.
I suggested to Patrick that he upgrade to Big Y and update the genetic genealogy component of his book Arthur's Round which is the biography of his famous ancestor.

http://epicirelandchq.com/

Is there any way you can get Patrick to join the R-DF41 Project? I would like to crow a little bit about the Guinness family being DF41+. Is there a link to some source I can quote as evidence? Or can I cite you as having Patrick's DF41+ result straight from him?

Here's a link to the DF41 Project:

R-DF41 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df-41/about/background)

Heber
04-02-2016, 06:12 PM
Is there any way you can get Patrick to join the R-DF41 Project? I would like to crow a little bit about the Guinness family being DF41+. Is there a link to some source I can quote as evidence? Or can I cite you as having Patrick's DF41+ result straight from him?

Here's a link to the DF41 Project:

R-DF41 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df-41/about/background)

I have asked Patrick to join the DF41 project. Let's see if he decides to join.

I understand that the new Irish DNA Atlas maps will be presented at WDYTYA on April 8th.
They should be very interesting and create lots of discussion and insights into settlement in Ireland.
I understand the paper will be published by June.

zamyatin13
04-07-2016, 01:58 PM
I have asked Patrick to join the DF41 project. Let's see if he decides to join.

I understand that the new Irish DNA Atlas maps will be presented at WDYTYA on April 8th.
They should be very interesting and create lots of discussion and insights into settlement in Ireland.
I understand the paper will be published by June.

That's great news, looking forward to the results. Is anyone going to WDYTYA tomorrow to report back on the presentation?

rms2
04-08-2016, 12:05 AM
I have asked Patrick to join the DF41 project. Let's see if he decides to join.

I understand that the new Irish DNA Atlas maps will be presented at WDYTYA on April 8th.
They should be very interesting and create lots of discussion and insights into settlement in Ireland.
I understand the paper will be published by June.

Thanks! I hope he decides to join.

I have his book, Arthur's Round, now and am enjoying it.

zamyatin13
04-09-2016, 04:14 PM
This is the only image I've been able to find from a random google on the topic.

If you squint, looks like there's a big block in the South, a fairly decent sized block in the west & centre and Ulster groupings as you'd expect.

8692

If anyone could find a better copy of that map, would be much appreciated, looks interesting.

Dubhthach
04-09-2016, 04:41 PM
I've seen photo's on Facebook, they basically had Ireland divided into two Finestructure branches, these been "North" and "South" the division line between the two cluster interesting follows the boundary of Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha, which also marks a major isogloss/dialectical boundary in the irish language as well as been somewhat evident in difference in archaelogical records as well as stuff like later legal/socio-economical condition.

Anyways each branch was in turn divided into clusters which were more regional. Here's a photo from Joss, who posted it on ISOGG list:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fineStructure-branches.jpg
8693

It is rather intersting compared to main isogloss boundaries in Irish:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ao-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/croc-isogloss.png

Archaelogical difference:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

Of course the concept of Leath Cuinn (the half of Conn) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mug Nudhat) was to reflect the political division of Ireland in early medieval period (basically from 500-1000AD). Conn been the titular ancestor of the Dál Cuinn (Uí Néill ⁊ Connachta) and the Mug Nuadhat (aka. Eogan Mór) been titular ancestor of the Eoghanachta.

zamyatin13
04-09-2016, 10:07 PM
the division line between the two cluster interesting follows the boundary of Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha, which also marks a major isogloss/dialectical boundary in the irish language as well as been somewhat evident in difference in archaelogical records as well as stuff like later legal/socio-economical condition.

That's great, thanks.

I agree that the north/south split bears more than a passing resemblance to the archaeology as well as the myth history. To see this borne out in genetics is really astonishing.

County Clare is maybe the exception that proves the rule. Originally part of Connacht then re-settled I believe, the mix of blue and red circles seems to directly mirror this history, which is fascinating.

Those diagrams also remind me of the distribution of crannogs, which also seem to have a north/south split:

8702

alan
04-10-2016, 01:37 AM
I've seen photo's on Facebook, they basically had Ireland divided into two Finestructure branches, these been "North" and "South" the division line between the two cluster interesting follows the boundary of Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha, which also marks a major isogloss/dialectical boundary in the irish language as well as been somewhat evident in difference in archaelogical records as well as stuff like later legal/socio-economical condition.

Anyways each branch was in turn divided into clusters which were more regional. Here's a photo from Joss, who posted it on ISOGG list:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fineStructure-branches.jpg
8693

It is rather intersting compared to main isogloss boundaries in Irish:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ao-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/croc-isogloss.png

Archaelogical difference:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

Of course the concept of Leath Cuinn (the half of Conn) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mug Nudhat) was to reflect the political division of Ireland in early medieval period (basically from 500-1000AD). Conn been the titular ancestor of the Dál Cuinn (Uí Néill ⁊ Connachta) and the Mug Nuadhat (aka. Eogan Mór) been titular ancestor of the Eoghanachta.

yes the map reflects the divides between the northern two-thirds and the southern third of Ireland that appears in archaeology. You can see this divide (although not absolute and varying a bit in exact border) in the Neolithic with Court Tombs and passage tombs mostly in the northern half. You can see it again in late Bronze Age metalwork specifics and again in the Iron Age where La Tene material is very scarce in the southern third. Its persistant and probably ultimately geographical in origin. The southern third is of course simply far easier to access from the south coast where its natural connections are with SW England, south Wales and NW/Atlantic France. The rest of Ireland would have been easiest to access from the west coasts of northern Britain from north Wales to western Scotland and most of the settlement in that part of Ireland likely came via at least a short sojourn in those areas.

That being the case the different natural routes into the south and north of Ireland means that the genetic history of northern Britain will be imprinted on the northern half or two-thirds of Ireland while this would not be true in the southern third or so. So we should probably see the origins of the differences in the differences between south-west Britian and north-west Britain's settlements histories as this has likely been passed onto Ireland and the basis of the genetic north-south division in Ireland. The same geographical factors are obviously true in reverse for Irish settlement outbound which would merely have reinforced this.

Its probably then worth chewing over the difference that having a stream from SW Britain/NW France vs NW Britain means. There are prevailing north-south divisions in British archaeology which have probably been passed on to Ireland. For example even in the Mesolithic, Ireland reflects more the Scottish/extreme north of England trend of early narrow blade use and no earlier broad blade tradition.

In the Neolithic its clear that the closest parallels for Court Tombs are in western and southern Scotland - where the axe trade also firmly links these area. Sheridan sees northern Britain as mostly part of the big Neolithic wave from NE France rather than points further west.

The late Neolithic saw strong connections of henges, timber circles, grooved ware and super passage tombs which also seem to largely link the northern two-thirds of Ireland with north-west Britain from NW Wales to Orkney with links with the latter especially strong. You see again in the Iron Age that the northern two-thirds is linked in with Britain (especially north) through La Tene material. Clearly the northern two-thirds of Ireland received most of its genes via northern Britain.

The southern third could be reached - albeit more slowly - from the same route from the north and probably was in the Mesolithic where it shares the same technologies (all Ireland). I get the impression that south in the Neolithic had a mix but the northern stream was weak and many of the Neolthic tomb types are rare in the south. There was of course the option for a more direct stream by sea to the south coast from or via SW Britain where the Neolithic cultures were somewhat distinct from much of Britain. Sheridan places their origins of the Neolithic in SW England further west in France than the the much more dominant wave from north-east France which settled much of Britain and the northern half/two-thirds of Ireland.

Another factor is that the south coast area was more reliant on rather more long sea journeys for outside contact than the very short casual hops into NE Ireland that could be made from Scotland and NW England. So SW Ireland was probably more prone to isolation from outside influences. It could be isolated either by lack of confident sea technology or the wish to take risky journeys (perhaps in the Mesolithic) or when the raison d'etre of a 'navy' broken down as with the collapse of the bronze trading networks c. 750BC. I think you can see this in the Iron Age when the northern two-thirds had an infusion of ideas from Britain in the form of La Tene materials while the southern third was like a void - there was not distinct southern 'alternative' to the La Tene culture in terms of high status material indicative of outside contact with the world. It seems to have genuinely become isolated and the southern sea routes of contact grown moribund.

This sea route only picked up again in sub-Roman times when contact and settlement in south Wales is clearly parallelled with both areas having ogham stones (superconcentrated in southern third of Ireland and south Wales).

At the core of this all is geography of course but its a powerful influence and it causes patterns of contact to be repeated again and again through prehistory and history and keeps linking the same places even into modern times with the Irish post-famine diaspora - Munster people largely went to southern England while Ulster/north Connaught went largely to Scotland and northern England.

alan
04-10-2016, 01:57 AM
Probably the greatest extremes in genetics should be between the extreme north-east (heavily linked to Atlantic Scotland in the Neolithic and Early Bronze Age especially) and south-west Ireland. Interestingly (though I cannot remember the source) someone in the late 16th or early 17th century commented that (pre-planatation) the northerners looked physically most like the Scots (it didnt state what this meant) while the SW had a tall dark type I think they likened to Gascons or some other people in that area. The rest of Ireland in between was stated to be intermediate between the two extremes.

As an aside, the fine grained genetic maps does kind of agree with my own observations that Ulster and north Connaught people tend strongly to the blue eyed, ultra fair/freckly skin with a good sprinkling of gingers sort of appearance. I think too broader faces with broad cheekbones are more common in this area. The south coast sort of area seems to have a higher amount of hazel eyes, slightly more olivey skin. County Claire if Ennis is representative seems to have a lot of people with dirty fair hair and blue eyes but nowhere near as many gingers as further north. Yet IMO they are very distinct from Limerick and Kerry people further south-west. It might be a fluke but most of the Limerick people I have met have brown eyes which is unusual in Ireland. Just my personal impression on my travels.

Dubhthach
04-10-2016, 09:17 AM
It's worth pointing out though that these two Branches are closer to each other than to other branches when you add in PoBI data, unsurprising really when you consider the fact that there was shared language/culture/legal system across the island leaving aside some regional variation for a long time.

Again images taken from Joss on ISOGG facebook group (he posts here as as well if memory serves right)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fine-structure-tree.jpg

PCA:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/PCA.jpg

ROH (runs of homozygosity)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ROH.jpg

It's interesting how the English do compared to other insular populations on ROH, obviously due to fact that they have more in way of admixture over time (if we fact in AS admixture etc.) -- I better go get my banjo (roll deliverance music)

The interconnection of various Irish clusters matches what we saw in earlier PCA diagram that Gerard posted on pinterest (using PoBI data to compare irish sample to)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/30/f8/b3/30f8b3143781b287a0b76ef1bfe3e60f.jpg
8717

Dubhthach
04-10-2016, 09:27 AM
That's great, thanks.

I agree that the north/south split bears more than a passing resemblance to the archaeology as well as the myth history. To see this borne out in genetics is really astonishing.

County Clare is maybe the exception that proves the rule. Originally part of Connacht then re-settled I believe, the mix of blue and red circles seems to directly mirror this history, which is fascinating.

Those diagrams also remind me of the distribution of crannogs, which also seem to have a north/south split:

8702

I imagine part of reason for divison on Crannóg might also be due to geography, Munster by and large doesn't have a lot of lakeland and is generally good farmland (Golden Vale etc.), highest concentration in that map above is in drumlin/lake belt and Shannon/Erne area going by quick eyeball.

another datapoint with regards to differences is distrubution of Ogham stones in Ireland. This one is reverse of other ones in that highest concentration is in Munster:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

Patterson in "Cattle Lords & Clansmen" talks about differences in economy and thus of legal tradition between early medieval Munster and Leath Cuinn, for example talking about (going from memory here) the legal tradition seems to show spilt between "Sword Land" of Leath Cuinn with pastoral emphasis vs. Trades/Craft tradition in Munster with a "Priest-King" type overlordship (a number of early medieval Eoghanachta kings were "King-Bishop" of Cashel).

Alot of historians actually use the term "Sword-land" when talking about expansion of Dál Cuinn.

I've only really started that book though so need to get more into it, so I might be bit wrong in my opinion above:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BJT8XD8WL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

http://undpress.nd.edu/books/P00044

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cattle-Lords-Clansmen-Structure-Ireland/dp/0268008000
http://www.amazon.com/Cattle-Lords-Clansmen-Structure-Ireland/dp/0268008000

Dubhthach
04-10-2016, 09:33 AM
It seems they have compared Rathlin1 and Ballynahatty to their dataset, obviously there's only following slides, but it be interesting to hear what they said about it. I think final paper when they publish will be intresting!

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/idna-ancient.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/idna-conclusions.jpg

bobjoe 699
04-10-2016, 11:27 AM
this all looks very interesting does any body have the the data from the WDYTYA show

Dubhthach
04-11-2016, 09:03 AM
I've redacted my copies of various slides above, I've been made aware that publishing of them before paper could actually "endanger" the results been published.

zamyatin13
04-11-2016, 09:45 AM
I've redacted my copies of various slides above, I've been made aware that publishing of them before paper could actually "endanger" the results been published.
Really? Seems a bit funny when they've just presented them at a public event, but you can see their point I suppose.

One thing that did jump out of the tree diagram was the close relationship of Ireland and Orkney. Seems a bit strange. Calculator effect maybe or something more?

Dubhthach
04-11-2016, 09:51 AM
Really? Seems a bit funny when they've just presented them at a public event, but you can see their point I suppose.

One thing that did jump out of the tree diagram was the close relationship of Ireland and Orkney. Seems a bit strange. Calculator effect maybe or something more?

Pain in the arse is what it is, but as an Irishman I'm not keen to be seen as person who wrecked publication of Irish DNA atlas final report ;) After it comes out we can rip it to shreds etc if we want to.

With regards to Orkney I was thinking about that as well. That tree appears to be made up of only PoBI and Irish DNA Atlas sample, they didn't include samples from PCA graph (Norway, Germany, France, Spain, Italy etc.)

I do wonder if they added in Norwegians for example how that would affect that, given you can model Orcadians as admixture between mainland Scots and Norwegians etc. One thing I found concerning about PoBI sample was given the massive size of the English sampling and relatively undersampling in rest of areas that it would input some sorta bias into the algorithms they were using.

bobjoe 699
04-11-2016, 11:12 AM
no problem i understand

alan
04-11-2016, 07:30 PM
I imagine part of reason for divison on Crannóg might also be due to geography, Munster by and large doesn't have a lot of lakeland and is generally good farmland (Golden Vale etc.), highest concentration in that map above is in drumlin/lake belt and Shannon/Erne area going by quick eyeball.

another datapoint with regards to differences is distrubution of Ogham stones in Ireland. This one is reverse of other ones in that highest concentration is in Munster:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

Patterson in "Cattle Lords & Clansmen" talks about differences in economy and thus of legal tradition between early medieval Munster and Leath Cuinn, for example talking about (going from memory here) the legal tradition seems to show spilt between "Sword Land" of Leath Cuinn with pastoral emphasis vs. Trades/Craft tradition in Munster with a "Priest-King" type overlordship (a number of early medieval Eoghanachta kings were "King-Bishop" of Cashel).

Alot of historians actually use the term "Sword-land" when talking about expansion of Dál Cuinn.

I've only really started that book though so need to get more into it, so I might be bit wrong in my opinion above:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BJT8XD8WL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

http://undpress.nd.edu/books/P00044

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cattle-Lords-Clansmen-Structure-Ireland/dp/0268008000
http://www.amazon.com/Cattle-Lords-Clansmen-Structure-Ireland/dp/0268008000

That IMO is one of the 2 best books on understanding how the old Irish social, clan and economic system worked. There is one other Early Irish and Welsh kinship by Charles Edwards. However its been 15 years since I really read up on this specialised area so there might be new stuff.

Dubhthach
04-12-2016, 10:30 AM
That IMO is one of the 2 best books on understanding how the old Irish social, clan and economic system worked. There is one other Early Irish and Welsh kinship by Charles Edwards. However its been 15 years since I really read up on this specialised area so there might be new stuff.

From what little I've read it's good stuff, of course it's worth pointing out that texts such as these are specifically concentrating on pre-invasion Ireland. Post 1169 though there is continuation we also see adaptation/change of societal structure/law, with for example increased political fragmentation and what could be termed "increased tyrannical lordship" (That's a phrase I just came up with). Basically the arrival of Cambro-Norman's stopped the increasing political centralisation of the 12th century and led to increasing fragmentation (old "divide and conquer" maxim). A good book for Later Medieval lordship etc. is following:

http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/assets/BookJackets/_resampled/SetWidth440-9781846825576.jpg

Medieval Ireland
Territorial, political and economic divisions
Paul MacCotter
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/books/2014/medieval-ireland/

He talks about how the Cambro-Norman lordship for example was built ontop of already existing Gaelic irish system etc.



Describes, for the first time, the nature of the unique economic areal system of Gaelic Ireland as it developed and changed between the Early Medieval and Anglo-Norman periods, with special emphasis on the eleventh and twelfth centuries. The origins of this system are explored in their European context, and the components of the system: local kingdom, trícha cét, late-túath and baile biataig, are explored, described and understood. Special attention is given to the role of kingship in this early society, as well as to the lesser grades within society. A large part of this work of political geography is taken up with the task of listing and describing the area of each cantred/trícha cét by use of a newly developed methodology of boundary study. These are then represented cartographically. This methodology reveals the close relationship between Gaelic and Anglo-Norman areal units in a remarkable pattern of continuity. The various component units of the trícha cét, from the townland upwards, are examined of themselves and in addition shown to have great relevance for the study of such subjects as taxation, corporate kinship landholding, military levy, and even the origins of the rural Irish sense of place.
This is the first book to be published on this neglected and important area of study, the areal Irish medieval landscape. It has been described variously by Irish and British reviewers as ‘a seminal work’, ‘a landmark publication’, as having ‘the potential to be a paradigm shifting work’, and as ‘essential reading for anyone involved in the study of Early Ireland’. In addition to its relevance to Irish medieval history, the book has been described as providing a new approach ‘to land tenure elsewhere, particularly but not exclusively in the British Isles’.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-Ireland-Territorial-Political-Divisions/dp/1846825571/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460456594&sr=8-1&keywords=Medieval+Ireland+Territorial%2C+political +and+economic+divisions
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Ireland-Territorial-Political-Divisions/dp/1846825571/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460456594&sr=8-1&keywords=Medieval+Ireland+Territorial%2C+political +and+economic+divisions

Some reviews (from fourcourts press)


‘An important contribution in the campaign to drag medieval Irish history out of the Celtic Twilight – “which is”, as Tolkien observed, “not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason” – and into the mainstream of European historiography … The analysis and speculation on territorial and tenurial organisation in this book not only elucidate a hitherto under-researched aspect of medieval Irish history but also suggest new and interesting ways in which land tenure elsewhere, particularly but no exclusively in the British Isles, can be approached. The book comprises seven analytical chapters, a gazetteer of the tríuchas and four appendices presenting primary material and methodological notes, and is well provided with maps. The volume is really a must for anyone interested in land tenure or rural history and should be read', Alex Woolf, EHR (February 2012).

‘This long overdue book on the territorial organisation of the Irish Medieval landscape should be eagerly devoured by a new generation of Irish historians, geographers and archaeologists … [a] seminal work, which will hopefully open the floodgates for further research … A work of this kind faced the daunting challenge of condensing an enormous volume of localised historical information to provide a comprehensive overview of the whole island and it is one of the marked achievements of this book that this is accomplished. An enduring component of the book will be an all-island wide gazetteer with maps of the trícha céts, cantreds and the local kingdoms of Early Medieval Ireland which will continue to serve as an invaluable research tool for a long time to come … author’s style is lucid and he makes a point of defining clearly all the terms used and, where necessary, he coins new terms which allow the reader to follow his arguments with relative ease … The book has provided a firm and broad platform for future research and debate on a vital aspect of Irish Medieval Settlement … this landmark publication, which conceivably has the potential to be a paradigm shifting work, should be regarded as essential reading for anyone involved in the study of Early Ireland', Thomas McErlean, Irish Geography (March 2010).

‘A very significant contribution to study of medieval Ireland … an essential read for anyone interested in the origin, history and development of Irish place-names’, Michael Merrigan, Ireland’s Genealogical Gazette (November 2008).

‘Remarkable … MacCotter’s command of the primary sources and onomastic evidence is nothing short of breathtaking … the tightly-written analysis that occupies the first half of the volume also represents a major contribution to scholarship … the author can rest assured that scholars from the early historic period to the early modern will find themselves reaching for this volume time and again to find out “what MacCotter has to say”’, Peter Crooks, Studia Hibernica (Spring 2010).
‘A well-researched book that represents a radical reappraisal of Hogan’s ideas and one that is bound to spark a lively debate among Irish historians … [this] book represents a new and important contribution to the study of the territorial divisions of eleventh- and twelfth-century Ireland. As such, it will become the starting point for all future discussions of this topic', Dan M. Wiley, Speculum (2010).


Another relatively recent book that comes out of the Discovery Programme (and thus for example talks about some of archaelogical sites from boom years) is:

Ireland in the medieval world, AD400–1000
Landscape, kingship and religion

http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/assets/BookJackets/_resampled/SetWidth440-9781846823411.jpg
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/books/2014/ireland-in-the-medieval-world/

TM Charles-Edwards "Early Christian Ireland" is one of my goto books that's for sure. Good chunks of it can be read on google books:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=early+christian+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=early%20christian%20ireland&f=false

Heber
04-13-2016, 07:13 PM
Dennis Walsh series of maps from 1st to 8th century shows
the progression from the N/S divide to the Kingdoms and Dynasties.

A.D. 100 - Conn of the Hundred Battles - The 'Annals'.
A.D. 150 - Early People - Ptolemy's Map.
A.D. 200 - Legendary Kings
A.D. 300 - Royal Provinces and Sites.
A.D. 400 - Arrival of Christianity.
A.D. 500 - Provinces and Tribes.
A.D. 600 - The Golden Age.
A.D. 700 - Kingdoms and Dynasties

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/


8835

8836

8837

8838

Jean M
04-26-2016, 05:24 PM
TM Charles-Edwards "Early Christian Ireland" is one of my go to books that's for sure.

Finally indulged myself with purchase of same. My golly. Packed full of goodies.

Dubhthach
04-27-2016, 09:26 AM
Finally indulged myself with purchase of same. My golly. Packed full of goodies.

It's excellent, where I've seen it in book shops (1 exactly) they tend to put it under "Christian Ireland" (books on St. Patrick -- other early saints, generally religion type books --probably due to title) but it covers in fairly equal amounts the "secular" aspects of Irish politics/kingship in the pre-Viking period. It's also great source for references.

His deconstruction of both the Uí Néill and Aírgialla origin myths/stories are a tour de force.

Jean M
04-27-2016, 01:05 PM
It's excellent ...His deconstruction of both the Uí Néill and Aírgialla origin myths/stories are a tour de force.

If I am ever asked for a second edition of Blood of the Celts, I can make good use of it, I'm sure.

fridurich
05-03-2016, 05:52 PM
This is all very interesting. Amazing how the two branches are in about the same regions as the dialectal differencecs, Leath Cuinn/Leath Mogha, and archaelogy.

Would you say the lighter colored rings which represent N. England /S.W. Scotland show that the native Irish who have lived in Ulster and nearby areas of Ireland centuries before the the Ulster Plantation, were very similar autosomal dna wise to the people of southwest Scotland and North England who lived n southwest Scotland and Northern England during this same time period? Of course this isn't taking into account any relationship between the groups through Ydna or MTDNA.

It seems obvious some of the testees were in Northern Ireland, so it seems to me that some of them could be descendants of the Scottish and English planters, which theoretically could skew the results. What I really want to know is how closely the native Irish (without the Planter descendants being tested, or used to figure this out) are related autosomal dna wise to the Southwest Scots and Northern English (without testing any immigrants from Ireland in SW Scotland or N. England who appear to be descended from the pre-Plantation native Gaelic speakers).

Perhaps in the testing they did they took pains to do it the way I mentioned.

Thanks for any help!

Regards

Jessie
05-04-2016, 12:03 PM
This is all very interesting. Amazing how the two branches are in about the same regions as the dialectal differencecs, Leath Cuinn/Leath Mogha, and archaelogy.

Would you say the lighter colored rings which represent N. England /S.W. Scotland show that the native Irish who have lived in Ulster and nearby areas of Ireland centuries before the the Ulster Plantation, were very similar autosomal dna wise to the people of southwest Scotland and North England who lived n southwest Scotland and Northern England during this same time period? Of course this isn't taking into account any relationship between the groups through Ydna or MTDNA.

It seems obvious some of the testees were in Northern Ireland, so it seems to me that some of them could be descendants of the Scottish and English planters, which theoretically could skew the results. What I really want to know is how closely the native Irish (without the Planter descendants being tested, or used to figure this out) are related autosomal dna wise to the Southwest Scots and Northern English (without testing any immigrants from Ireland in SW Scotland or N. England who appear to be descended from the pre-Plantation native Gaelic speakers).

Perhaps in the testing they did they took pains to do it the way I mentioned.

Thanks for any help!

Regards

They differentiate between the different groups in Northern Ireland. In the PoBI the Northern Irish of Protestant background were more close to the SW Scots while the Catholic Northern Irish were closer to the Western Scots.

Irish are very close genetically to British anyway. I'm sure you'll get more indepth answers to your query.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

fridurich
05-05-2016, 03:58 AM
Jessie, thanks a lot for your reply. I notice you are m222 and s588. My cousin who has the same surname as I, O'Hair, and has done a YDNA test, is also m222 and s588. We descend from a Michael O'Hair/O'Hare born in 1749 and from County Down. I also have Scottish, Ulster Scot, Welsh, and English ancestry.

I wonder how the POBI administrators knew if a person tested was Catholic or Protestant, unless the testee had to give their religious affiliation, or, if it was assumed based on what the surname was.

I appreciate the hard work of the participants and administrators of the POBI project, but, I am concerned about the accuracy of their results for two reasons. Number one, there are large swaths of Scotland where NO people were tested, unless there has been an update to this map. https://blog.wellcome.ac.uk/2015/03/20/image-of-the-week-genetic-map-of-the-british-isles/ Look at the Scottish Highlands, large areas where no one was tested. There would have been a lot of people descended from Gaelic speaking groups here as well as in Ayr and Galloway. It looks like it probably shows people tested in Ayr/Ayrshire or close, but most of Galloway has no samples!

If I remember right, James Leyburn in his book on the Scotch-Irish (the American term for Ulster Scot) says the records show the biggest group of immigrants to Ulster from Scotland during the early plantation period came from Ayr, Galloway, Lanarkshire, and Renfrewshire, etc. I know that after the initial plantation of 1609, groups of Highland Scots, who were Protestant, came to Ulster also.

The second thing, is they tested people who only had all 4 of their grandparents who lived in a certain region, if I understand this correctly. I don't know the average age of the person tested, but if a sizeable group were only 30 to 40 years old, they could have grandparents all born around 1915, which isn't going really far back in time to show they are an established family in the area for a long time.

fridurich
05-05-2016, 04:14 AM
Anyone else is welcome to respond constructively about how much the Irish, whose ancestors had been in Ulster and adjacent regions of Ireland centuries before the Ulster Plantation of 1609, are related autosomal DNA wise to the people of southwestern Scotland and northern England (excluding Irish immigrants whose ancestors immigrated there during the 19th century or after). I can always learn something new.

Also, any responses on how accurate a depiction of ancient ancestry the POBI study shows for Great Britain would be nice. I see huge areas of the highlands of Scotland and Galloway where apparently no one was tested. There may have been a reason I don't know of, (funding?) but it seems to me that we would have a more accurate depiction if more areas had people that were tested. Having said that, it could be that much of the whole British Isles map shows an accurate depiction. I do appreciate all of the work the participants and administrators did.

Heber
05-05-2016, 04:49 AM
The Epic Ireland Exhibit will open next Sunday. It is a high tech digital museum which tells the story of the Irish Diaspora.
I had a preview this week and here are some of the stories told. At our request they will offer FTDNA (for sale) genetic tests to visitors. They are targeting 400K visitors per annum. If you are in Dublin it is well worth a visit. Expect to spend several hours as there is a lot to see. There are 21 galleries in the vaults of the CHQ building comprising digital artifacts. It also includes a genealogy Center. We hope to implement additional innovative projects related to genetic genealogy in the future.

http://pin.it/0Q3x4j2

MacUalraig
05-05-2016, 06:51 AM
Anyone else is welcome to respond constructively about how much the Irish, whose ancestors had been in Ulster and adjacent regions of Ireland centuries before the Ulster Plantation of 1609, are related autosomal DNA wise to the people of southwestern Scotland and northern England (excluding Irish immigrants whose ancestors immigrated there during the 19th century or after). I can always learn something new.

Also, any responses on how accurate a depiction of ancient ancestry the POBI study shows for Great Britain would be nice. I see huge areas of the highlands of Scotland and Galloway where apparently no one was tested. There may have been a reason I don't know of, (funding?) but it seems to me that we would have a more accurate depiction if more areas had people that were tested. Having said that, it could be that much of the whole British Isles map shows an accurate depiction. I do appreciate all of the work the participants and administrators did.

I'm not really convinced such distinct populations even exist. And a lot of SW Scotland is mountainous and sparsely populated, in crude terms its only the coastal areas facing Ireland and the Solway Firth which have any real numbers of inhabitants. Remember that Galloway has been awarded Britain's first Dark Sky Park for good reason. That further reduces the chances of pure populations.

Heber
05-05-2016, 01:21 PM
Anyone else is welcome to respond constructively about how much the Irish, whose ancestors had been in Ulster and adjacent regions of Ireland centuries before the Ulster Plantation of 1609, are related autosomal DNA wise to the people of southwestern Scotland and northern England (excluding Irish immigrants whose ancestors immigrated there during the 19th century or after). I can always learn something new.

Also, any responses on how accurate a depiction of ancient ancestry the POBI study shows for Great Britain would be nice. I see huge areas of the highlands of Scotland and Galloway where apparently no one was tested. There may have been a reason I don't know of, (funding?) but it seems to me that we would have a more accurate depiction if more areas had people that were tested. Having said that, it could be that much of the whole British Isles map shows an accurate depiction. I do appreciate all of the work the participants and administrators did.

For the Irish DNA Atlas, Ulster was divided between an Irish (Gaelic) Cluster and a British (Planter) Cluster.
The Irish cluster was closest to west Scotland and the British cluster was closer to south Scotland, Borders.
They used surnames to define the clusters.
The POBI found similar patterns.
"The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD."
http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf

The highest Western Seaboard (Atlantic) component was Connacht followed by Ulster, Munster and Leinster.

The POBI sampling strategy was based on going to agricultural fairs and their definition of rural and urban was different and so they may have missed out on less populated regions.

"It was more difficult to assess how many were rural, because what does ‘rural' mean? If it implies that the grandparents were all born >10 km from even a small town of 20 000 inhabitants, the proportion is 37%. But using the authors' preferred cut-off of 125 000 inhabitants (which would classify Oxford as urban, but Cambridge as rural:"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3260911/

fridurich
05-06-2016, 02:17 AM
The Epic Ireland Exhibit will open next Sunday. It is a high tech digital museum which tells the story of the Irish Diaspora.
I had a preview this week and here are some of the stories told. At our request they will offer FTDNA (for sale) genetic tests to visitors. They are targeting 400K visitors per annum. If you are in Dublin it is well worth a visit. Expect to spend several hours as there is a lot to see. There are 21 galleries in the vaults of the CHQ building comprising digital artifacts. It also includes a genealogy Center. We hope to implement additional innovative projects related to genetic genealogy in the future.

http://pin.it/0Q3x4j2

Wow, that exhibit sounds interesting in the extreme! I live in America (Texas), but if I am able to make a trip to Ireland in the near future, I would love to see it. Thanks!!!

fridurich
05-06-2016, 02:37 AM
I'm not really convinced such distinct populations even exist. And a lot of SW Scotland is mountainous and sparsely populated, in crude terms its only the coastal areas facing Ireland and the Solway Firth which have any real numbers of inhabitants. Remember that Galloway has been awarded Britain's first Dark Sky Park for good reason. That further reduces the chances of pure populations.

Thanks MacUalraig. I have seen a topographical map of Galloway before, and hadn't noticed or forgotten mountainous terrain there! Just curious, why do you say you aren't sure such distinct populations exist?

Also, living in America, I hadn't heard about Britain's first Dark Sky Park, so I looked it up. It spoke of a great park in Galloway which had very few inhabitants and where the night was really black so you can see stars easily. How does Galloway being awarded Britains first Dark Sky Park reduce the chance of a pure population?

Thanks for your input.
Regards

fridurich
05-06-2016, 03:24 AM
For the Irish DNA Atlas, Ulster was divided between an Irish (Gaelic) Cluster and a British (Planter) Cluster.
The Irish cluster was closest to west Scotland and the British cluster was closer to south Scotland, Borders.
They used surnames to define the clusters.
The POBI found similar patterns.
"The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD."
http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf

The highest Western Seaboard (Atlantic) component was Connacht followed by Ulster, Munster and Leinster.

The POBI sampling strategy was based on going to agricultural fairs and their definition of rural and urban was different and so they may have missed out on less populated regions.

"It was more difficult to assess how many were rural, because what does ‘rural' mean? If it implies that the grandparents were all born >10 km from even a small town of 20 000 inhabitants, the proportion is 37%. But using the authors' preferred cut-off of 125 000 inhabitants (which would classify Oxford as urban, but Cambridge as rural:"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3260911/

Thanks for your interesting reply Gerard! When I look at the fine-Structure.jpg image that Dubhthach provided in an earlier post, it shows basically 3 types of rings based on color. So the red rings in Ulster, represent the Gaelic Irish, while the olive/green colored rings represent the Scottish and English planters?

I notice some of the red rings in Ulster or adjacent to it, appear a lighter red. I am wondering if this means that particular ring although Gaelic Irish, is also closer autosomal dna wise to the Planter cluster than a dark red ring would be.

Which brings up the next question, did the Gaelic autosomal DNA cluster, although distinct from the Planter cluster, show any similarity to the Planter cluster? On a YDNA level, for snps A259/260, S588, and maybe at least one other snp, appear to have native Irish and Scottish surnames in them. Although some of those surnames could be NPEs and not the true ancestral name, in my opinion, I think there are too many for there not to be both Irish and Scottish surnames.

When the POBI article said "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD.", to me it seems like they are saying on their POBI map, that the Gaelic Irish in Northern Ireland are kin to the people of Dalriada in Scotland (I guess they mean Argyll, the western Isles and part of the highlands) while the Planter group are kin to the Picts, and that they are saying that Dalriada people and the Picts were separate clan groups and the POBI map reflects this separation as it would have been around 600 A.D. Now, I could have misinterpreted some of what they meant. So, if anyone has a different idea on what this statement meant, let me know.

Heber
05-06-2016, 04:59 AM
Wow, that exhibit sounds interesting in the extreme! I live in America (Texas), but if I am able to make a trip to Ireland in the near future, I would love to see it. Thanks!!!

This is an excellent documentary on the making of Epic Ireland and a virtual tour along with an interview with the owner Neville Isdell.

http://www.rte.ie/player/nl/show/nationwide-21/10568953/

You may need to download the rte player to watch it.

https://www.facebook.com/epicirelandchq/posts/1735381453341760

Heber
05-06-2016, 06:12 AM
Thanks for your interesting reply Gerard! When I look at the fine-Structure.jpg image that Dubhthach provided in an earlier post, it shows basically 3 types of rings based on color. So the red rings in Ulster, represent the Gaelic Irish, while the olive/green colored rings represent the Scottish and English planters?

I notice some of the red rings in Ulster or adjacent to it, appear a lighter red. I am wondering if this means that particular ring although Gaelic Irish, is also closer autosomal dna wise to the Planter cluster than a dark red ring would be.

Which brings up the next question, did the Gaelic autosomal DNA cluster, although distinct from the Planter cluster, show any similarity to the Planter cluster? On a YDNA level, for snps A259/260, S588, and maybe at least one other snp, appear to have native Irish and Scottish surnames in them. Although some of those surnames could be NPEs and not the true ancestral name, in my opinion, I think there are too many for there not to be both Irish and Scottish surnames.

When the POBI article said "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD.", to me it seems like they are saying on their POBI map, that the Gaelic Irish in Northern Ireland are kin to the people of Dalriada in Scotland (I guess they mean Argyll, the western Isles and part of the highlands) while the Planter group are kin to the Picts, and that they are saying that Dalriada people and the Picts were separate clan groups and the POBI map reflects this separation as it would have been around 600 A.D. Now, I could have misinterpreted some of what they meant. So, if anyone has a different idea on what this statement meant, let me know.

The yellow circles were Ulster planter
The yellow diamonds were Ulster Gaelic

So in terms of proximity to the Britain cluster it would appear to be

Ulster planter
Leinster
Munster/Connacht
Ulster Gaelic

As these were preliminary results they may change with further fine scale analysis.

MacUalraig
05-06-2016, 06:18 AM
Thanks MacUalraig. I have seen a topographical map of Galloway before, and hadn't noticed or forgotten mountainous terrain there! Just curious, why do you say you aren't sure such distinct populations exist?

Also, living in America, I hadn't heard about Britain's first Dark Sky Park, so I looked it up. It spoke of a great park in Galloway which had very few inhabitants and where the night was really black so you can see stars easily. How does Galloway being awarded Britains first Dark Sky Park reduce the chance of a pure population?

Thanks for your input.
Regards

I may not have written that paragraph very clearly. The Dark Sky Park exists due to there being no lights from civilization due to the terrain. There is little inland population (apart from a couple of valleys like Nithsdale). The people who do live there are mostly stacked up along the low lying coastal regions which happen to be adjacent to Ireland. In other words there isn't much in the way of geographical isolation from Irish populations (or English ones of course along the Solway Firth).

Even Lanarkshire is quite hilly and sparsely populated in its southern half especially the Crawford/Leadhills area.

Jessie
05-06-2016, 12:27 PM
Thanks for your interesting reply Gerard! When I look at the fine-Structure.jpg image that Dubhthach provided in an earlier post, it shows basically 3 types of rings based on color. So the red rings in Ulster, represent the Gaelic Irish, while the olive/green colored rings represent the Scottish and English planters?

I notice some of the red rings in Ulster or adjacent to it, appear a lighter red. I am wondering if this means that particular ring although Gaelic Irish, is also closer autosomal dna wise to the Planter cluster than a dark red ring would be.

Which brings up the next question, did the Gaelic autosomal DNA cluster, although distinct from the Planter cluster, show any similarity to the Planter cluster? On a YDNA level, for snps A259/260, S588, and maybe at least one other snp, appear to have native Irish and Scottish surnames in them. Although some of those surnames could be NPEs and not the true ancestral name, in my opinion, I think there are too many for there not to be both Irish and Scottish surnames.

When the POBI article said "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD.", to me it seems like they are saying on their POBI map, that the Gaelic Irish in Northern Ireland are kin to the people of Dalriada in Scotland (I guess they mean Argyll, the western Isles and part of the highlands) while the Planter group are kin to the Picts, and that they are saying that Dalriada people and the Picts were separate clan groups and the POBI map reflects this separation as it would have been around 600 A.D. Now, I could have misinterpreted some of what they meant. So, if anyone has a different idea on what this statement meant, let me know.

My brother is in the S588 group. He is close to people with the name McGee and McGeehan which is interesting. I haven't looked too deeply into it at the moment. The expert here on M222 is Dubthach. He has a great knowledge of Irish history and surnames.

fridurich
05-07-2016, 04:29 PM
The yellow circles were Ulster planter
The yellow diamonds were Ulster Gaelic

So in terms of proximity to the Britain cluster it would appear to be

Ulster planter
Leinster
Munster/Connacht
Ulster Gaelic

As these were preliminary results they may change with further fine scale analysis.

Thanks Gerard. I went to the POBI link you provided http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf. Very interesting was their findings that the cluster of people out of the many clusters they found in Great Britain, the closest related autosomal dna wise to the Ulster planters (they termed it N. Ireland/S. Scotland) were the Ulster Gaelic Irish/Gaelic Scots (they termed it N. Ireland/W. Scotland). We also see this on their hierarchy tree on page 4. They didn't do testing in Ireland, as you know.

I'm sorry, I may not have communicated the best to you on what I was asking. I know that you are referring to the POBI dna map when you mention the yellow circles and diamonds. I'm still not sure how to interpret all the data from the image on page 18 of this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5079-Irish-DNA-Atlas-Preliminary-Results/page18, where an autosomal DNA map related to the Irish DNA Atlas project has 3 different colored rings. So when you say:

"...The yellow circles were Ulster planter
The yellow diamonds were Ulster Gaelic

So in terms of proximity to the Britain cluster it would appear to be

Ulster planter
Leinster
Munster/Connacht
Ulster Gaelic ..."

is what you are saying is that the regions of Ireland or Northern Ireland or groups of people from the Irish DNA Atlas project who are the most closely related to the British cluster (the Scottish and English planters) shown by yellow circles on the POBI map are in this order (from the Irish DNA Project) Ulster Planter, Leinster, Munster/Connacht, and Ulster Gaelic?

Also, what do the lighter colored red circles mean?

I know the red circles stand for northern Ireland, blue for southern Ireland, and greem/olive for N. England/S.W. Scotland, so I'm assuming that the green circles stand for the Scottish and English Planters.

Thanks for the video on the documentary on Epic Ireland! I have to do some tasks soon so I won't watch all of it now, but I look forward to watching the rest of it later.

Kind Regards

fridurich
05-08-2016, 12:48 AM
I may not have written that paragraph very clearly. The Dark Sky Park exists due to there being no lights from civilization due to the terrain. There is little inland population (apart from a couple of valleys like Nithsdale). The people who do live there are mostly stacked up along the low lying coastal regions which happen to be adjacent to Ireland. In other words there isn't much in the way of geographical isolation from Irish populations (or English ones of course along the Solway Firth).

Even Lanarkshire is quite hilly and sparsely populated in its southern half especially the Crawford/Leadhills area.

I see what you mean MacUalraig. After I looked at a topographical map, I can see how the coastal area facing Ireland is close to it. Seems like it would be easy for people to come to Galloway from Ireland, and vice versa. Also, I observe how easy it would be for invaders from England to cross the Solway Firth.

fridurich
05-08-2016, 01:00 AM
My brother is in the S588 group. He is close to people with the name McGee and McGeehan which is interesting. I haven't looked too deeply into it at the moment. The expert here on M222 is Dubthach. He has a great knowledge of Irish history and surnames.

McGee/MacGee/Magee is a surname that can be indigenous to Ireland or Scotland. There were some McGees/McKees in Galloway and may have been in other places in Scotland, perhaps multiple origins. I don't remember what parts of Ireland that indigenous McGees were in. Yes Dubhthach knows a whole lot about Irish history and surnames. Also, he knows a lot about DNA and different SNPs. He has had some of the most interesting and detailed answers to my posts.

Rory Cain
05-08-2016, 06:12 AM
... I don't remember what parts of Ireland that indigenous McGees were in...

The peninsula of Islandmagee, Co Antrim, would be a good bet.

Heber
05-08-2016, 06:13 AM
Fridurich you will find a lot of detailed analysis in this paper and this thread:

https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6999-L21-new-paper&highlight=History

Dubhthach
05-08-2016, 10:09 AM
McGee/MacGee/Magee is a surname that can be indigenous to Ireland or Scotland. There were some McGees/McKees in Galloway and may have been in other places in Scotland, perhaps multiple origins. I don't remember what parts of Ireland that indigenous McGees were in. Yes Dubhthach knows a whole lot about Irish history and surnames. Also, he knows a lot about DNA and different SNPs. He has had some of the most interesting and detailed answers to my posts.

Part of reason for that is the personal name Aodh (pronounced as "ee" in Ulster/Conacht and as "A" (like in dAY) in Munster) was extrememly popular name throughout the Gaelic world. As a result anglisced we see names such as:
McKay, McKey, Mackey, McGee, Magee, McHugh, Hughes (last two due to angliscation of Aodh as Hugh)

As a result it's a name that has multiple origins, kinda like Kelly and Murphy where in both cases personal names Ceallach and Murchadha were extremly common. This is pattern you see alot with irish surnames (even my own has at least 4 independent occurrences).

In context of S588 by itself, it's very old SNP, it's only one step down from DF105/S660, it has no equivalents (eg. other SNP's that all other S588+ men also have).

YFULL for example has following prediction based on BigY/FGC of it's age:
S588 formed 1850 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp

So point of expansion possibly during the 5th/6th century, which is a significant period in Irish history.

Dubhthach
05-08-2016, 10:12 AM
I see JP Mallory has released a new book, not really relevant to DNA (Though his previous book which this somewhat expands on did cover some DNA aspects)

In Search of the Irish Dreamtime: Archaeology & Early Irish Literature
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QRI0fUnoL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

http://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/in-search-of-the-irish-dreamtime-archaeology-and-early-irish-literature-hardcover

Review in the Irish Times here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/in-search-of-the-irish-dreamtime-archaeology-and-early-irish-literature-by-jp-mallory-review-1.2637831

fridurich
05-09-2016, 03:31 AM
The peninsula of Islandmagee, Co Antrim, would be a good bet.

Thanks Rory. Seems kind of like I have heard of that place before. I also read where there are some McGees in western Meath.

fridurich
05-09-2016, 03:34 AM
Fridurich you will find a lot of detailed analysis in this paper and this thread:

https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6999-L21-new-paper&highlight=History

Thanks Heber, I look forward to looking at it in more detail (I scanned it.) when I get more time.

fridurich
05-09-2016, 04:09 AM
It is confusing and it raises the question of how representative the POBI samples are as well. There seem to be 26 (hard to estimate the Belfast area) S Scot/NI to 7 W Scot/NI and 1 Northumbrian. Using religion (Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but for a rough approximation it should suffice) as a gauge of ancestry, a quick look at NI demographics shows a split of 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, and most of the remainder either refusing to answer or giving no religion. Assuming a similar spilt on the non religious/refused to answer group then roughly 1/2 the population is of Irish ancestry, yet only 7/34 show up as W Scot/NI. That would suggest either the sampling was biased or the majority of the nationalist community are secretly British :\

Good point. I went back to the POBI map and tried to count circles and triangles. The image wasn't high enough res, or shot close enough that I could make out all of it, but it definitely looks like a lot more yellow circles than green triangles, which would seem to make the Ulster Gaelic Irish component under represented.

fridurich
05-09-2016, 04:57 AM
Part of reason for that is the personal name Aodh (pronounced as "ee" in Ulster/Conacht and as "A" (like in dAY) in Munster) was extrememly popular name throughout the Gaelic world. As a result anglisced we see names such as:
McKay, McKey, Mackey, McGee, Magee, McHugh, Hughes (last two due to angliscation of Aodh as Hugh)

As a result it's a name that has multiple origins, kinda like Kelly and Murphy where in both cases personal names Ceallach and Murchadha were extremly common. This is pattern you see alot with irish surnames (even my own has at least 4 independent occurrences).

In context of S588 by itself, it's very old SNP, it's only one step down from DF105/S660, it has no equivalents (eg. other SNP's that all other S588+ men also have).

YFULL for example has following prediction based on BigY/FGC of it's age:
S588 formed 1850 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp

So point of expansion possibly during the 5th/6th century, which is a significant period in Irish history.

Thanks Dubhthach, very interesting we get McKay and McGee from the same personal name.

I value your input, so I would like to ask you if you think the pre-Plantation Ulster Gaelic Irish were very close autosomal wise to the people of Ayrshire and Galloway in the same time period.

The POBI map has the Ulster Gaelic Irish/Scottish Highlander/Western Isles (green triangles) as the closest related cluster to the Scottish and English planters (yellow circles). I know that Gaelic was spoken in the Galloway area until at least the mid 16th century, not that long before the first official 1609 plantation. I know that Norse-Gaels settled there from Ireland and probably other places. Perhaps other Irish settled there too, Ireland is so close. There are many Gaelic place names there, as well as English looking place names. I suspect the culture was Gaelic, at least in part, until English replaced the Gaelic language. I have also seen many Mac surnames for the planters, along with other Gaelic names like Kennedy. Also, the planters had many non-Gaelic looking surnames, some look English, Norman, or Scottish looking but not Gaelic. The Gaelic looking surnames appear to be a significant minority. Since it was a British Isles project POBI didn't test anyone in Ireland, but I think it would have been fantastic if there was any feasible way for Ireland and all of the British Isles to have been tested at the same time.

Of course, Galloway and Ayrshire must have had ancestry also from stone age people, Brythonic Celtic speakers, Angles/Saxons and Normans, and others. Now, which of these ethnic groups form the largest part of the Galwegians and Ayrshire people's genetic makeup is a good question.

However, I see much of Galloway which could have a population to find testers from, such as the coastal region facing Ireland, and along the Solway Firth. No one has tested at all in these areas. In the Highlands and Western Isles of Scotland, there are vast areas where not one soul was tested. Additionally, in Northern Ireland there are way more yellow circles than green triangles, which seems like it should be close to about the same number for each.

So, I am not sure how accurate a depiction the POBI map is of ancient ancestral populations. I don't know if lack of testing in certain areas could have skewed the results. Maybe all participation was voluntary. If so, perhaps an extremely catchy media and marketing blitz could have drawn more volunteers, if they had funds for it. I hope they can go back and test people from most of those areas of Scotland that didn't get tested. Also, not a single sample from the Isle of Man, which would surely have some interesting genetics with the Viking/Celtic mixture.

Thanks a lot for your take on it.

kevinduffy
05-09-2016, 03:54 PM
Good point. I went back to the POBI map and tried to count circles and triangles. The image wasn't high enough res, or shot close enough that I could make out all of it, but it definitely looks like a lot more yellow circles than green triangles, which would seem to make the Ulster Gaelic Irish component under represented.

If the researchers used the phrase "British Isles" in their study then it is likely that a lot of the native Irish Gaelic population would have been turned off from participating in the research.

fridurich
05-10-2016, 01:33 AM
If the researchers used the phrase "British Isles" in their study then it is likely that a lot of the native Irish Gaelic population would have been turned off from participating in the research.

I haven't thought about that,though it makes sense.

fridurich
05-10-2016, 02:22 AM
Ulster was divided into two clusters with native Irish names and British names as expected.
6349
Ireland clusters with Scotland and parts of Scotland Border clusters with parts of Ulster.
You can see that Ulster 12 and 13 cluster differently.
6350

I have updated the board with some of Jean Mancos presentation.
The video update is delayed to the end of October due to a laptop incident.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ggi2015/O

I didn't know Connolly could be a Scottish surname. I thought Connolly was only Irish. Sure enough, in George Black's work on Scottish surnames it is there. Glad I learned that. How did they pick if a surname was British or Ulster Gaelic Irish? With Connolly, it being possible it could be Scottish or Irish, did they go on religion? Yet I have read of conversions of Catholics to being a Protestant, although those conversions don't appear to be extremely numerous. Thanks.

fridurich
05-10-2016, 03:08 AM
The problem is that the 17th century AD British plantation of Ulster was just the last in 1000s of years of movement across the narrow channel between NE Ireland and western Scotland so the many of the planters were very similar to the Irish of the area.

Also, according to George Buchanan, famous Scottish historian and tutor to King James VI of Scotland, Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway in the mid 16th century. Buchanan is said to be son of a Highlander, and a Gaelic speaker. So, I really believe that in the early Plantation era, beginning about 1609, that some of the Planters from Galloway could communicate in Gaelic with the native Irish. To me, it seems like at this early time, any Gaelic speaking Planters couldn't help but see some cultural similarity between themselves and the Irish.

Would be interesting to know if the music and dress of the two areas was similar.

Of course as time went on, with Gaelic practically dying out or becoming infrequent in Galloway, as well as the religious differences between the Galloway Planters and the Irish, the Galloway Planters could have arrived at the point where they saw no or little similarity with the Irish, aside from perhaps noticing that some of them had some Mac surnames like some of the Irish did. Hypothetical example: "My name is MacClintock, and their name is MacGilligan...hmm...I notice we both have Mac at the start of our names...I remember grandpa saying Erische used to be spoken in our homeland".

JMcB
05-10-2016, 03:19 AM
Hello Dubhthach,

As the subject has turned towards surnames and Galloway, I wonder if I might get your opinion on my name McBryde/McBride (Mac Giolla/Gille Brighde). My paper trail goes back to the 1700s in Scotland, we beleive Galloway and I'm I-M253 predicted F2642 which is Scandinavian/Germanic. Apparently, Patrick Dineen believed that Gaelic names consisting of the word giolla ‘servant’ and the name of a saint or the title of an ecclesiastical dignitary became popular among assimilated Danes in Ireland. And did not become common until after the year 900, perhaps as a result of a Danish fashion. So considering you expertise, I'm curious to know what you thought.

Regards,
John

P. S. Dineen, An Irish-English Dictionary (Dublin, 1927), s.v. giolla.

fridurich
05-10-2016, 03:27 AM
I don't think that the POBI samples are statistically representative of the whole of Ulster because the project relied on volunteers so you can only sample whoever comes forward. But I do think the POBI project collected enough samples to split Ulster into two groups, the yellow circles and the lime green triangles. Looking at the supplementary paper from the POBI paper, the yellow circles and the lime green triangles only split apart at K=17 they so they are actually close genetically. But the yellow circles cluster is also distributed in Cumbria (10 circles to my eye) and Northumberland (9 circles) and on the PCA charts the yellow circles are closer to the main English cluster than the lime green triangles are.

So it looks to me as though the yellow circles cluster has a bit more of what you might call "English" input from history, meaning that in a broad sense such as Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Norman, etc.

Very interesting. Is there a link to look at the supplementary paper for the POBI project? Pardon this question, but what do you mean by "...Looking at the supplementary paper from the POBI paper, the yellow circles and the lime green triangles only split apart at K=17 they so they are actually close genetically...."?

I don't understand what you mean by they only split apart at K=17.

Thanks!

Dubhthach
05-10-2016, 08:34 AM
I haven't thought about that,though it makes sense.

Well the name is extremely contentious here in Ireland, though generally people tend to ignore Irish opinions on it (one only has to look at Wikipedia which even has a page dedicated to the "naming dispute") ;)

Dubhthach
05-10-2016, 08:45 AM
There's a poem from 16th century that does validate the presence of Galwegian Gaelic in the 16th century:

The Flyting of Dumbar and Kennedie


Sic eloquence as thay in Erschry use,
In sic is sett thy thraward appetyte.
Thow hes full littill feill of fair indyte.
I tak on me, ane pair of Lowthiane hippis
Sall fairar Inglis mak and mair perfyte
Than thow can blabbar with thy Carrik lippis.


transcribed from medieval Scots (Inglis):


Such eloquence as they in Irishry [Gaeldom] use
Is what defines your perverse taste.
You have very small aptitude for good verse-making.
I'll wager, a pair of Lothian hips
Shall fairer English make and more polished
Than thou can blabber with thy Carrick lips.


Note the "othering" of Scottish Gaeldom as "Irishry", thence one of reason why the term "Erse" is generally regarded as derogatory in a Scottish context for Gáidhlig.

To be honest I'm gonna put my hands up and say I don't know much about medieval history of Galloway, linguistically "Galwegian Gaelic" appears to be intermediate between Irish and Scottish Gáidhlig (well the dialects that now make up standard). This make sense from a geographic sense.

Here's some relevant papers on academia.edu

The Expansion and Contraction of Gaelic in Galloway

https://www.academia.edu/454333/The_Expansion_and_Contraction_of_Gaelic_in_Gallowa y

---

Although the Gall-Ghàidheil are first recorded in mid-ninth century Ireland, their origins are likely to have been in Scotland, possibly in the Kintyre/ Argyll area where Viking settlers were absorbed into a Gaelic speaking community. This was a different situation to that found in the Hebrides and Western Isles where Gaelic did not survive Viking settlement and where Gaelic did not return until the twelfth century. In contrast, the suggested Kintyre/Argyll settlement led within a generation or two to the emergence of a Norse influenced but Gaelic speaking people who were established on Bute by 900. By 1034, when the Annals of Ulster record the death of Suibne mac Cinaeda as ri Gall Gaidel , the Gall-Ghàidheil territory Suibne ruled probably extended along the coast of the lower Firth of Clyde and into Renfrewshire and Ayrshire, including Carrick. . By the beginning of the twelfth century the term Galloway (implying the territory of the Gall-Ghàidheil) was loosely used to describe a large part of south-west Scotland. This ‘greater’Galloway stretched from Renfrewshire in the north-west as far south-east as the Annandale/ Nithsdale border.

Confusingly, the region now called Galloway (Wigtownshire and the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright) may not have been part of this Gall-Ghàidheil territory. In 1065 Echmacarch mac Ragnaill died on pilgrimage to Rome and his death was noted by an Irish chronicler who described him as rex ina renn, king of the Rhinns. This is assumed tomean the Rhinns of Galloway (which had still been the ‘Saxon shore’ in 913) and his kingdom included the Machars of Wigtownshire. Between 1036 and 1052, Echmacarchwas twice ruler of Dublin and for a time the Isle of Man was part of his kingdom,although it is not known if Echmacarch’s kingdom extended into the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright. The conclusion Thomas Clancy draws from this is that ‘the Gall-Ghàidheil were not the only Norse-dominated Gaelic-speaking group to have been colonising the south-west’. The implication is that Gaelic may have arrived in Galloway both by land, via the Gall-Ghàidheil of the Firth of Clyde and Ayrshire; and by sea, via Dublin and Norse-Gaelic Ireland

---

Another relevant piece is "The break up of Dál Riata and the rise of Gallgoídil" by Clare Downham
https://www.academia.edu/19596633/The_break_up_of_D%C3%A1l_Riata_and_the_rise_of_Gal lgo%C3%ADdil

Galloway had a diverse history I imagine, after all it's probable that it was part of Brythonic kingdom of Strathclyde, I'd imagine given terrain and everything that you probably looking at stuff like language shift to cover the change from "Old Welsh" (Cumbric) to "Old Irish" for alot of population, as oppose to population movement from Ireland -> Galloway.

Dubhthach
05-10-2016, 09:10 AM
Hello Dubhthach,

As the subject has turned towards surnames and Galloway, I wonder if I might get your opinion on my name McBryde/McBride (Mac Giolla/Gille Brighde). My paper trail goes back to the 1700s in Scotland, we beleive Galloway and I'm I-M253 predicted F2642 which is Scandinavian/Germanic. Apparently, Patrick Dineen believed that Gaelic names consisting of the word giolla ‘servant’ and the name of a saint or the title of an ecclesiastical dignitary became popular among assimilated Danes in Ireland. And did not become common until after the year 900, perhaps as a result of a Danish fashion. So considering you expertise, I'm curious to know what you thought.

Regards,
John

P. S. Dineen, An Irish-English Dictionary (Dublin, 1927), s.v. giolla.

John,

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm no expert. I hadn't heard about Dineen's opinion on name formation using "Giolla", rather intruiging idea, I wonder what some of people working in fields of Old Irish today would think of it. From quick look at a reference site it does appear that the various Giolla+saint names do appear to start showing up in Annals after 900AD.

What I would say is there was a quite an impact of Old Norse on Gaeldom, in modern Irish today for example alot of our words to do with trade/maritime etc are actually loanwords from Old Norse into Old/Middle Irish. Likewise several to a dozen Norse personal names were borrowed and used by Irish dynasts, resulting in a number of distinct surnames in existence today (that despite people claiming are "viking names" are in reality branches of Irish dynastical groups where titular ancestor had a borrowed Norse personal name).

I'm gonna be honest and state that I know very little about various clades of I1, does F2642 show more of a modern distrubution in Scandinavia? I had a a quick look at yfull and it has following prediction for it based on NGS testing:

F2642 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp

That's quite an old SNP, I'd imagine that NGS testing would help narrow that down bit more.

Given that names such as "Giolla-Bhrighde" were quite common in later medieval period across Gaeldom it's quite probable that any Gaelicised Norse in Scotland would also possibly bear the name.

-Paul

MacUalraig
05-10-2016, 11:43 AM
Also, according to George Buchanan, famous Scottish historian and tutor to King James VI of Scotland, Gaelic was still spoken in Galloway in the mid 16th century. Buchanan is said to be son of a Highlander, and a Gaelic speaker. So, I really believe that in the early Plantation era, beginning about 1609, that some of the Planters from Galloway could communicate in Gaelic with the native Irish. To me, it seems like at this early time, any Gaelic speaking Planters couldn't help but see some cultural similarity between themselves and the Irish.

Would be interesting to know if the music and dress of the two areas was similar.

Of course as time went on, with Gaelic practically dying out or becoming infrequent in Galloway, as well as the religious differences between the Galloway Planters and the Irish, the Galloway Planters could have arrived at the point where they saw no or little similarity with the Irish, aside from perhaps noticing that some of them had some Mac surnames like some of the Irish did. Hypothetical example: "My name is MacClintock, and their name is MacGilligan...hmm...I notice we both have Mac at the start of our names...I remember grandpa saying Erische used to be spoken in our homeland".

There was a well known military report written by an English spy about 1563, looking at military possibilities in Ayrshire. Of Carrick, the district controlled by the Kennedy clan (whose chief was titled the Earl of Cassillis in those days), he said this:

"Karrik Bailzery

Beyonde the Mull of Gallowaye and of Lowgryane soueth witht the same Karrik, parcell of the shereffdome of Are, inhabited by therle of Cassills and his frendes, a barrant cutree but for bestiall; the people for the moste part spekethe erishe.

Dymrre Castell

There is the castell of Dynmure cheif house to therle of Cassilles: foure myles upoun this syde the brige of Done whiche devydetht Karrik from Kyle: It is a fare castell not stronge nor worthy fortifying; I do not muche pas upoun this cuntree of carrik: being but a barrant cuntree, a yrne coest as said ys, unles when tyme served to scurge that young papist erle, and his frendes for his saik: when any powar of this realme haitht occacion in those quarters..."

JMcB
05-10-2016, 07:04 PM
John,

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm no expert. I hadn't heard about Dineen's opinion on name formation using "Giolla", rather intruiging idea, I wonder what some of people working in fields of Old Irish today would think of it. From quick look at a reference site it does appear that the various Giolla+saint names do appear to start showing up in Annals after 900AD.

What I would say is there was a quite an impact of Old Norse on Gaeldom, in modern Irish today for example alot of our words to do with trade/maritime etc are actually loanwords from Old Norse into Old/Middle Irish. Likewise several to a dozen Norse personal names were borrowed and used by Irish dynasts, resulting in a number of distinct surnames in existence today (that despite people claiming are "viking names" are in reality branches of Irish dynastical groups where titular ancestor had a borrowed Norse personal name).

I'm gonna be honest and state that I know very little about various clades of I1, does F2642 show more of a modern distrubution in Scandinavia? I had a a quick look at yfull and it has following prediction for it based on NGS testing:

F2642 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp

That's quite an old SNP, I'd imagine that NGS testing would help narrow that down bit more.

Given that names such as "Giolla-Bhrighde" were quite common in later medieval period across Gaeldom it's quite probable that any Gaelicised Norse in Scotland would also possibly bear the name.

-Paul

Hello Paul,

If you're interested here's the full quote and the source on Dineen:

It has been claimed by Patrick Dineen that Gaelic names consisting of the word giolla ‘servant’ and the name of a saint or the title of an ecclesiastical dignitary became popu- lar among assimilated Danes in Ireland.80 Names consisting of Gilla- plus a saint’s name have a similar meaning to another group of Celtic names, those consisting of the element Máel- ‘bald, tonsured’ plus a saint’s name, e. g. Máelmuire ‘servant of Mary’. These latter names were quite common in Ireland as early as the seventh century, while the names in Gilla- did not be- come common until after the year 900, perhaps as a result of a Danish fashion.81 One of the earliest recorded examples is Gilla Pátraic, son of Ímar (i. e. Ívar), who died in 982, and Brian Ó Cuív has seen the choice of this name for Ívar’s son as evidence that the Viking settlers in Ireland owed devotion to St Patrick.

It is interesting to note that the Vikings from the Gaelic-speaking areas carried the custom of forming personal names in Gilla- with them to their other colonies in the British Isles. It is not surprising to find such names in Scandinavian place-names in Dumfriesshire, where the Gaelic element was strong. Here we find Gill’Eoin in Gillenbie, Gillae, a short form, in Gillesbie, and Gilmartin in Gillemartin beck.82 The scandinavianised form Gilli of the short form occurs in Gilsland in Cumberland, Gilston in the Central Lowlands of Scotland, and Gilby in Lincolnshire, while *Gilliman, a by-name meaning ‘servant of Gilli’ is the specific of Gilmonby in Yorkshire.83




80 P. S. Dineen, An Irish-English Dictionary (Dublin, 1927), s.v. giolla.

81 Cf. B. Ó Cuív, ‘Borrowed elements in the corpus of Irish personal names from medieval times’, Nomina 3 (1979), pp. 40–51, at pp. 46–47.

82 G. Fellows-Jensen, Scandinavian Settlement Names in the North-West (SSNNW), Navnestudier 25 (Copenhagen, 1985), pp. 31, 126.

83 Fellows-Jensen, SSNNW, p. 126; eadem, ‘Scandinavians in Southern Scotland.



The Vikings And Their Victims: The Verdict Of The Names

By Gillian Fellows-Jensen

(Pages 27 & 28)

http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Fellows-Jensen.pdf


From what I understand the Imar (or Ivar) mentioned above was a Viking who ruled in Dublin. Interestingly enough, he and his brothers often allied themselves with the Northern Uí Néill. And apparently it was common for the Vikings to seal their alliances by intermarrying. For example, Ivar's brother Amlaib was married to the daughter of the Uí Néill's king. And that in later years, alliances between the Northern Uí Néill and the Vikings of Dublin became a regular occurrence.

What I find interesting is that the name Mac Giolla-Bhrighde is supposed to have originated in the area of the Northern Uí Néill, in County Donegal. How I connect that to a haplogroup of I-M253, I don't know. Perhaps an Angle from Northumbria or a Danish Viking or a Saxon fleeing the Normans. Who knows?

Be that as it may, I would like to thank all of you. I've been reading this forum for many months now and I've always found it to be informative and enjoyable!

Regards - John

zamyatin13
05-10-2016, 08:06 PM
O

I didn't know Connolly could be a Scottish surname. I thought Connolly was only Irish. Sure enough, in George Black's work on Scottish surnames it is there. Glad I learned that. How did they pick if a surname was British or Ulster Gaelic Irish? With Connolly, it being possible it could be Scottish or Irish, did they go on religion? Yet I have read of conversions of Catholics to being a Protestant, although those conversions don't appear to be extremely numerous. Thanks.

I'm assuming (but may be wrong) that they didn't go on surname or religion, but instead identified two genetic clusters and listed those surnames. The one cluster has more Irish names but has a few others like Holland, while the 'British' cluster has some non-British names like Connolly.

There was a fair amount of inter-marriage. I always end up harking back to my own tree, but I've got Irish Protestant ancestors with names like Kelly, Reilly and Doran, so it wasn't uncommon.

The POBI study has 'SW Scot/N Ireland' and 'Highland Scot/Native Irish' as closer to each other than to any other cluster, i.e. Scots from Ayrshire are closer to Irish of County Tyrone than they are to the Scottish Borders area. The Irish DNA Atlas study seems to differ here, which is one of many reasons why it will be so interesting to see the results to compare.

It's worth saying that my Carrick ancestry is loaded with 'Mac' surnames (McCrindle, McKissock, McMiken, McNider, McClure, McConnell and many more), while the rest of my Ayrshire ancestry has none.

POBI supplemental data is here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/extref/nature14230-s1.pdf although there may be other documents that I haven't saved the link to.

fridurich
05-11-2016, 02:38 AM
I've seen photo's on Facebook, they basically had Ireland divided into two Finestructure branches, these been "North" and "South" the division line between the two cluster interesting follows the boundary of Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha, which also marks a major isogloss/dialectical boundary in the irish language as well as been somewhat evident in difference in archaelogical records as well as stuff like later legal/socio-economical condition.

Anyways each branch was in turn divided into clusters which were more regional. Here's a photo from Joss, who posted it on ISOGG list:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/fineStructure-branches.jpg
8693

It is rather intersting compared to main isogloss boundaries in Irish:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ao-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster-isogloss.png
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/croc-isogloss.png

Archaelogical difference:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

Of course the concept of Leath Cuinn (the half of Conn) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mug Nudhat) was to reflect the political division of Ireland in early medieval period (basically from 500-1000AD). Conn been the titular ancestor of the Dál Cuinn (Uí Néill ⁊ Connachta) and the Mug Nuadhat (aka. Eogan Mór) been titular ancestor of the Eoghanachta.

Thanks for all of the interesting maps. On the graphic named fineStructure-branches.jpg which shows blue, red, white rings, which apparently are part of the Irish DNA Map project, I notice some of the red rings are lighter than other red rings, also on the blue rings, some may appear lighter than other blue rings. Do you know what the lighter color means? I have an idea what they mean, but I would like to see what others think. The legend explains that the red is N. Irish, blue is S. Irish, the olive/green color is I'm assuming the Scottish and English planters.

Anyone else is welcome to say what they think the lighter colored red and blue rings mean.

Just click on attachment 8693 above if you don't already see this map.

Thanks to anyone who can help explain this.

fridurich
05-11-2016, 02:57 AM
Well the name is extremely contentious here in Ireland, though generally people tend to ignore Irish opinions on it (one only has to look at Wikipedia which even has a page dedicated to the "naming dispute") ;)

Thanks Dubhthach for your reply. Living here in America, I'm not as completely aware of how it is viewed in Ireland as I should be.

fridurich
05-11-2016, 03:16 AM
There's a poem from 16th century that does validate the presence of Galwegian Gaelic in the 16th century:

The Flyting of Dumbar and Kennedie


transcribed from medieval Scots (Inglis):


Note the "othering" of Scottish Gaeldom as "Irishry", thence one of reason why the term "Erse" is generally regarded as derogatory in a Scottish context for Gáidhlig.

To be honest I'm gonna put my hands up and say I don't know much about medieval history of Galloway, linguistically "Galwegian Gaelic" appears to be intermediate between Irish and Scottish Gáidhlig (well the dialects that now make up standard). This make sense from a geographic sense.

Here's some relevant papers on academia.edu

The Expansion and Contraction of Gaelic in Galloway

https://www.academia.edu/454333/The_Expansion_and_Contraction_of_Gaelic_in_Gallowa y

---


---

Another relevant piece is "The break up of Dál Riata and the rise of Gallgoídil" by Clare Downham
https://www.academia.edu/19596633/The_break_up_of_D%C3%A1l_Riata_and_the_rise_of_Gal lgo%C3%ADdil

Galloway had a diverse history I imagine, after all it's probable that it was part of Brythonic kingdom of Strathclyde, I'd imagine given terrain and everything that you probably looking at stuff like language shift to cover the change from "Old Welsh" (Cumbric) to "Old Irish" for alot of population, as oppose to population movement from Ireland -> Galloway.

Thanks Dubhthach. Yes, that is a good example. I have seen the "Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy" before. I have read where Walter Kennedy was born into the well known aristocratic family of Kennedy of Dunure (south Ayrshire, I believe). He is said to be a great grandson of King Robert III. At any rate he had a Gaelic surname, but not related to Irish Kennedys. In one translation I saw of the Flyting, Kennedy is referred to as an Irish bard. I believe it at least implies, if not states Kennedy was Eerisch(Gaelic). Which one kind of depends on the translation you read. One analysis of it says that from an early 16th century Lothian or Lowland perspective, that Kennedy represented Gaelic Scotland and that Dunbar represented Lothian/Lowland Scotland (but not Galloway or nearby Gaelic areas).

I appreciate you giving the two links to the Norse-Gaels involvement in Galloway. They were interesting. I feel like people of mixed Viking and Irish/Gaelic Scottish descent immigrated to Galloway. Sounds like it could be by more than one group and coming from different directions.

fridurich
05-11-2016, 03:53 AM
There was a well known military report written by an English spy about 1563, looking at military possibilities in Ayrshire. Of Carrick, the district controlled by the Kennedy clan (whose chief was titled the Earl of Cassillis in those days), he said this:

"Karrik Bailzery

Beyonde the Mull of Gallowaye and of Lowgryane soueth witht the same Karrik, parcell of the shereffdome of Are, inhabited by therle of Cassills and his frendes, a barrant cutree but for bestiall; the people for the moste part spekethe erishe.

Dymrre Castell

There is the castell of Dynmure cheif house to therle of Cassilles: foure myles upoun this syde the brige of Done whiche devydetht Karrik from Kyle: It is a fare castell not stronge nor worthy fortifying; I do not muche pas upoun this cuntree of carrik: being but a barrant cuntree, a yrne coest as said ys, unles when tyme served to scurge that young papist erle, and his frendes for his saik: when any powar of this realme haitht occacion in those quarters..."

Thanks MacUalraig, that was really good. I have heard of this report before. Do you know the source? It sure seems genuine. Here is a URL I have for George Buchanan, King James VI tutor, saying that Galloway for the most part was Gaelic speaking.

http://westlandwhig.blogspot.com/2012/01/gaelic-in-galloway-contraction.html

This statement appears in one of Buchanan's works published in 1582. In the same web address, Alistair Livingston mentions that a Patrick Vaus of Barnbarroch, a comtempory of Buchanan, had correspondence that showed that Scots was the main language in Galloway in 1582.

I don't doubt that Scots was widespread in Galloway in the 15th and 16th century. However, taking into account the evidence of The Flyting of Kennedy and Dunbar, the spies report (which was in about 1563, if I remember right) you mention which says for the most part the people of Carrick speak Erishe, and George Buchanan's statement in 1582, that in Galloway that for the most part, it still used it's native language (Gaelic), I would have to conclude that Gaelic seems to have been spoken in Galloway all the way up to 1582, at least.

Now in places it could have been spoken much less, and more Scots, in other places a lot of Gaelic with much less Scots. Probably a whole lot of bilingualism in the 16th century. From 1582 to the first official plantation of Ireland in 1609, is not a long period of time. That's why I think some of the early planters from Galloway could understand some of the Irish. I believe later arriving Highland Scots should have been able to understand the Irish also, maybe sometimes with a little difficulty, but well enough to communicate.

Also, in Galloway there is said to be an Alexander Montgomerie (1545?-1610?) who was called the "Hielant Captain" whose works are said to have had Gaelic terms or words in them. Also there is stated to have been a Margaret McMurray (died 1760) who is said to be the one of the last Gaelic speakers known by their name.

There seems to be no doubt that over time, Scots completely replaced Gaelic in Galloway.

As a side note, as I looked at some 16th or 17th century records in Galloway, there appeared to be a higher percentage that had Gaelic surnames than what I had thought (can't remember the area right now, have to look it up). I don't know if some of them eventually anglicized their name to some degree.

fridurich
05-11-2016, 04:19 AM
I'm assuming (but may be wrong) that they didn't go on surname or religion, but instead identified two genetic clusters and listed those surnames. The one cluster has more Irish names but has a few others like Holland, while the 'British' cluster has some non-British names like Connolly.

There was a fair amount of inter-marriage. I always end up harking back to my own tree, but I've got Irish Protestant ancestors with names like Kelly, Reilly and Doran, so it wasn't uncommon.

The POBI study has 'SW Scot/N Ireland' and 'Highland Scot/Native Irish' as closer to each other than to any other cluster, i.e. Scots from Ayrshire are closer to Irish of County Tyrone than they are to the Scottish Borders area. The Irish DNA Atlas study seems to differ here, which is one of many reasons why it will be so interesting to see the results to compare.

It's worth saying that my Carrick ancestry is loaded with 'Mac' surnames (McCrindle, McKissock, McMiken, McNider, McClure, McConnell and many more), while the rest of my Ayrshire ancestry has none.

POBI supplemental data is here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/extref/nature14230-s1.pdf although there may be other documents that I haven't saved the link to.

Thanks. I didn't think about that method of the names becoming attached to clusters. It sounds very plausible.

In my book on Irish surnames (don't know where it is right now), Edward MacLysaght, the author, said Holland was a Gaelic Irish name and had been altered or anglicized, if I remember right.

I have Irish (my last name is O'Hair) descent. My Martin line may be Irish also. Also I have a lot of Ulster Scot descent from both mom and dad. Also, I have Welsh, English, German, and Swiss ancestry. I have heard that my ancestor Michael O'Hair had a Catholic Bible. He was born in 1749 and from County Down, Ireland. The first record of him in America is in Augusta County, Virginia right in the middle of a whole lot of Ulster Scots. There were other Irish people in the same area. Some had Mac surnames and a few even had the O' in front of their surname.

Since there were no Catholic churches, I would assume my ancestor Michael O'Hair became Presbyterian or some other Protestant denomination. If he went to church at all, which I feel pretty sure he did, it would have had to have been a Protestant church. His two wives (not at the same time, lol) are assumed to be Protestant. Some of Michael's children and grandchildren married people with Ulster Scot or Scottish surnames. Other people his children married appear to have English or other surnames (possibly a few of those were Irish whose names had been anglicized).

Thanks a lot for the POBI, supplement. It was real interesting.

MacUalraig
05-11-2016, 06:33 AM
Thanks MacUalraig, that was really good. I have heard of this report before. Do you know the source? It sure seems genuine. Here is a URL I have for George Buchanan, King James VI tutor, saying that Galloway for the most part was Gaelic speaking.

http://westlandwhig.blogspot.com/2012/01/gaelic-in-galloway-contraction.html

This statement appears in one of Buchanan's works published in 1582. In the same web address, Alistair Livingston mentions that a Patrick Vaus of Barnbarroch, a comtempory of Buchanan, had correspondence that showed that Scots was the main language in Galloway in 1582.

I don't doubt that Scots was widespread in Galloway in the 15th and 16th century. However, taking into account the evidence of The Flyting of Kennedy and Dunbar, the spies report (which was in about 1563, if I remember right) you mention which says for the most part the people of Carrick speak Erishe, and George Buchanan's statement in 1582, that in Galloway that for the most part, it still used it's native language (Gaelic), I would have to conclude that Gaelic seems to have been spoken in Galloway all the way up to 1582, at least.

Now in places it could have been spoken much less, and more Scots, in other places a lot of Gaelic with much less Scots. Probably a whole lot of bilingualism in the 16th century. From 1582 to the first official plantation of Ireland in 1609, is not a long period of time. That's why I think some of the early planters from Galloway could understand some of the Irish. I believe later arriving Highland Scots should have been able to understand the Irish also, maybe sometimes with a little difficulty, but well enough to communicate.

Also, in Galloway there is said to be an Alexander Montgomerie (1545?-1610?) who was called the "Hielant Captain" whose works are said to have had Gaelic terms or words in them. Also there is stated to have been a Margaret McMurray (died 1760) who is said to be the one of the last Gaelic speakers known by their name.

There seems to be no doubt that over time, Scots completely replaced Gaelic in Galloway.

As a side note, as I looked at some 16th or 17th century records in Galloway, there appeared to be a higher percentage that had Gaelic surnames than what I had thought (can't remember the area right now, have to look it up). I don't know if some of them eventually anglicized their name to some degree.

The report was reproduced in the Archaelogical Collections relating to the Counties of Ayr and Wigton but the original ms is in the Cottonian Collection Titus C.xii f.87 to f 89b.

Cassillis was tutored by Buchanan so the latter would have been very familiar with their customs.

Dubhthach
05-11-2016, 01:01 PM
I'm assuming (but may be wrong) that they didn't go on surname or religion, but instead identified two genetic clusters and listed those surnames. The one cluster has more Irish names but has a few others like Holland, while the 'British' cluster has some non-British names like Connolly.


Holland is a valid angliscation of a number of Gaelic Irish surnames believe it or not, in case of Ulster surnames this is probably the specific name:



Ó hAOLÁIN—I—O Healane, O Heyllane, O Helane, O Hilane, O Hillane, O Hylane, O Heolane, O Hoolane, O Holane, O Hollan, O Holland, Heelan, Helen, Hillane, Hillan, Holian, Heyland, Hiland, Hylan, Hyland, Holland, (Whelan), &c.; 'descendant of Faolán' (diminutive of faol, a wolf); a variant of Ó Faoláin (which see) through the aspiration of the initial f; a common surname, in the 16th century, in Offaly and Leix, whence it spread into other parts of Ireland. Owing to the different dialectical pronunciations of 'ao,' it is variously anglicised in the different provinces. In Munster, it is generally anglicised Heelan; Hyland is the usual form in Leinster; Holland in Ulster. In Connacht, it is sometimes corrupted to Ó hIoláin, Ó hOláin, Ó hOileáin, and Ó hÓileáin, anglicised Hillane, Hyland, Holland, &c, but the origin is clearly shown by the fact that these forms are nearly always also anglicised Whelan. Compare with Ó hAodhagáin.


Conversion of course worked both ways, from point of view of your ancestors were they Church of Ireland or Presbyterian?

You have to remember in the PoBI study that they had originally included a "Irish" (eg. 26 county) sample for when they did their "foreign admixture" analsysis, this was subsequently removed in final paper. When you look at the slide that Gerard published with regards to comparing Irish DNA atlas with PoBI sample, it would seem that the irish sample tends to "elongate" the Scottish groups into two distinct cluster, with the borders cluster been intermediate to english one.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg
9237

Dubhthach
05-11-2016, 02:10 PM
Thanks for all of the interesting maps. On the graphic named fineStructure-branches.jpg which shows blue, red, white rings, which apparently are part of the Irish DNA Map project, I notice some of the red rings are lighter than other red rings, also on the blue rings, some may appear lighter than other blue rings. Do you know what the lighter color means? I have an idea what they mean, but I would like to see what others think. The legend explains that the red is N. Irish, blue is S. Irish, the olive/green color is I'm assuming the Scottish and English planters.

Anyone else is welcome to say what they think the lighter colored red and blue rings mean.

Just click on attachment 8693 above if you don't already see this map.

Thanks to anyone who can help explain this.

I imagine we are going to have to wait for the eventual paper to be published. Remember that was taken from a photo of a projected slide.

Jessie
05-11-2016, 02:16 PM
Has anyone got any information on the surname Leland going back to the late 1700s in the Roscommon area. It doesn't appear a very common surname.

I'm really looking forward to when the Irish DNA Atlas is released.

Rory Cain
05-12-2016, 11:12 PM
Has anyone got any information on the surname Leland going back to the late 1700s in the Roscommon area. It doesn't appear a very common surname.

I'm really looking forward to when the Irish DNA Atlas is released.

Have you checked census and cencus substitutes on leitrim-roscommon.com?

jbarry6899
05-12-2016, 11:27 PM
Have you checked census and cencus substitutes on leitrim-roscommon.com?

Several Leland families in Roscommon in the Tithe Applotment Books, 1825:

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=leland&firstname=&county=Roscommon&parish=&townland=&search=Search

Jessie
05-13-2016, 11:30 AM
Have you checked census and cencus substitutes on leitrim-roscommon.com?

I have ancestor with that name from the late 1700s. I was wondering what the origin of the name is? I've read that it is a reduced from of MacClellan and MacLelland so I'm enquiring whether anyone has any knowledge of the name in Ireland.

fridurich
05-15-2016, 12:00 AM
The following is in reply to Dubhthach mentioning the omitted Irish clusters that the POBI group used to have and after I looked at some of the charts of the omitted results which he provided. I thought I was answering with a Reply With Quote, but I guess I wasn't. However, anyone is welcome to comment on this.

On page 7 of your link, there is a substantial amount of purple, representing the Irish cluster, in many of the clusters of Great Britain. Of interest also is the high percentage of purple in Aberdeenshire.

Also intriguing is that the well known family of Forbes in Aberdeenshire had chiefs who believed they were descended from one Ochonachar who was said to be from Ireland. Even as late as the 18th century, the surname Ochoncar was used by some of the main chiefs of the Forbes family. It may have been tacked on to their whole name, or they may have just used the Ochoncar name instead of Forbes. http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/forbes2.html
It sure does bear a resemblance to the name (anglicized) O'Connor.

Also, the Skene family of Aberdeenshire had an early tradition of being descended from the Gaelic Clan Robertson. My O'Hair cousin has tested positive for YDNA- m222 and s588. I notice on Kennedy's m222 chart, the Robertson chief is listed as s588.

Was the Forbes chiefly line descended from an Ochoncar? I don't know, but for them to use an Irish sounding name in a Lowland area like Aberdeen, where I doubt if very many people liked the Irish or the Highlanders in the 16th and 17th century, makes me think the belief was very strong.

Of interest also are the many Gaelic place names in Aberdeenshire. If I'm not mistaken, even Aberdeen is of Gaelic origin.

On a side note, I have some Burnett and Forbes ancestors on my mom's side from the Aberdeenshire area.

It's very puzzling and disappointing to me that the POBI study decided not to use the Irish DNA information. I think it would be very constructive and helpful for the POBI administrators to reconsider and use them.

Rory Cain
05-15-2016, 01:26 AM
I have ancestor with that name from the late 1700s. I was wondering what the origin of the name is? I've read that it is a reduced from of MacClellan and MacLelland so I'm enquiring whether anyone has any knowledge of the name in Ireland.

The pulp millpress compacts multiple Irish septs, who bear the same name by coincidence, into one sept - the biggest and most famous, and ethnically clease the others out of existence. So it depends on the quality of your source that says Leland is from MacClellan & MacLelland. Dubhthach has quite a library of surname reference books and may fsomething. I checked a couple of surname source books and I don't see that recorded. But as Jim Barry say, Leland is found in Co Roscommon and if I recall I think you will find McClellan or a variant there too. f they are in close proximity to each other, one woud have to wonder.

Jessie
05-15-2016, 04:24 AM
The pulp millpress compacts multiple Irish septs, who bear the same name by coincidence, into one sept - the biggest and most famous, and ethnically clease the others out of existence. So it depends on the quality of your source that says Leland is from MacClellan & MacLelland. Dubhthach has quite a library of surname reference books and may fsomething. I checked a couple of surname source books and I don't see that recorded. But as Jim Barry say, Leland is found in Co Roscommon and if I recall I think you will find McClellan or a variant there too. f they are in close proximity to each other, one woud have to wonder.

I haven't really been able to find much about the surname at all but virtually all sources say it is a reduced from of MacLellan and MacClelland.

http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=leland

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Leland

The names McLellan, MacClelland and Leland in Ireland are almost always of immigrant origin having been brought to the country by settlers from Scotland, especially during the seventeenth century. The native Gaelic Mac Giolla Fhaolain Sept of County Galway sometimes adopted these names as the anglicized form of their name, as well as the name Gilfillan in County Leitrim.

http://www.irishabroad.com/yourroots/familynames/SurnameView.asp?id=615

Jessie
05-15-2016, 04:39 AM
The following is in reply to Dubhthach mentioning the omitted Irish clusters that the POBI group used to have and after I looked at some of the charts of the omitted results which he provided. I thought I was answering with a Reply With Quote, but I guess I wasn't. However, anyone is welcome to comment on this.

On page 7 of your link, there is a substantial amount of purple, representing the Irish cluster, in many of the clusters of Great Britain. Of interest also is the high percentage of purple in Aberdeenshire.

Also intriguing is that the well known family of Forbes in Aberdeenshire had chiefs who believed they were descended from one Ochonachar who was said to be from Ireland. Even as late as the 18th century, the surname Ochoncar was used by some of the main chiefs of the Forbes family. It may have been tacked on to their whole name, or they may have just used the Ochoncar name instead of Forbes. http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/forbes2.html
It sure does bear a resemblance to the name (anglicized) O'Connor.

Also, the Skene family of Aberdeenshire had an early tradition of being descended from the Gaelic Clan Robertson. My O'Hair cousin has tested positive for YDNA- m222 and s588. I notice on Kennedy's m222 chart, the Robertson chief is listed as s588.

Was the Forbes chiefly line descended from an Ochoncar? I don't know, but for them to use an Irish sounding name in a Lowland area like Aberdeen, where I doubt if very many people liked the Irish or the Highlanders in the 16th and 17th century, makes me think the belief was very strong.

Of interest also are the many Gaelic place names in Aberdeenshire. If I'm not mistaken, even Aberdeen is of Gaelic origin.

On a side note, I have some Burnett and Forbes ancestors on my mom's side from the Aberdeenshire area.

It's very puzzling and disappointing to me that the POBI study decided not to use the Irish DNA information. I think it would be very constructive and helpful for the POBI administrators to reconsider and use them.

The reason why they didn't include the Irish cluster was because this cluster also contained similar population breakdowns of the other population clusters in the PoBI. Many areas then would show a large percentage of this Irish cluster and it would mask some of the other European populations. A prime example of this is the Highland cluster which ended up as about 63% Irish when the Irish cluster was included.

It would be like using a Welsh cluster or a Scottish cluster. Not very helpful in trying to figure out where in Europe these populations show similarities to.

fridurich
05-15-2016, 07:26 AM
The reason why they didn't include the Irish cluster was because this cluster also contained similar population breakdowns of the other population clusters in the PoBI. Many areas then would show a large percentage of this Irish cluster and it would mask some of the other European populations. A prime example of this is the Highland cluster which ended up as about 63% Irish when the Irish cluster was included.

It would be like using a Welsh cluster or a Scottish cluster. Not very helpful in trying to figure out where in Europe these populations show similarities to.

I kind of see what you are saying. But, let's just say we want to not worry about the continental European input into the British Isles and Ireland for the time being. Would using the Irish clusters give us a more accurate portrayal of how close the Irish were genetically to the Scots, English, and Welsh?

I'm new at interpreting some of the charts, and how all of the charts fit together to give us a more accurate portrayal of ancient populations in Ireland and the British Isles or ancient continental population input there, so my take on some of the charts may be off to a degree. Thanks for your reply and help.

Jessie
05-15-2016, 09:41 AM
I kind of see what you are saying. But, let's just say we want to not worry about the continental European input into the British Isles and Ireland for the time being. Would using the Irish clusters give us a more accurate portrayal of how close the Irish were genetically to the Scots, English, and Welsh?

I'm new at interpreting some of the charts, and how all of the charts fit together to give us a more accurate portrayal of ancient populations in Ireland and the British Isles or ancient continental population input there, so my take on some of the charts may be off to a degree. Thanks for your reply and help.

The Scots had the largest percentage of the old Irish cluster with the Highlands being the highest at 63%, SW Scotland was next with 45%, Northeast Scotland and Orkneys next with 36%, then NW Wales with 35%, Northumbria and Cumbria 32%, SW Wales 31%, W York 26%, Lincoln 25%, Forest of Dean and Cornwall both 23% and Devon had the lowest at 21%.

Just adding that this Irish cluster was from the 26 counties.

fridurich
05-16-2016, 04:50 AM
The Scots had the largest percentage of the old Irish cluster with the Highlands being the highest at 63%, SW Scotland was next with 45%, Northeast Scotland and Orkneys next with 36%, then NW Wales with 35%, Northumbria and Cumbria 32%, SW Wales 31%, W York 26%, Lincoln 25%, Forest of Dean and Cornwall both 23% and Devon had the lowest at 21%.

Just adding that this Irish cluster was from the 26 counties.

Thanks Jessie.

I see the 45 percent Irish cluster for SW Scotland. I also looked at the charts myself which are on a link on page 6 of this thread. Very interesting. Well, to me 45 percent in SW Scotland, around Galloway (as shown on chart) is too high a percentage to be caused only by Irish immigrants to Galloway during the 19th century, or, even any time after the 1609 Ulster Plantation. Considering they were using the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland, instead of any Northern Ireland counties, really makes it appear that there is a close autosomal dna relationship between the SW of Scotland and the Republic of Ireland (although I know there was some Scottish and English planters in Donegal, Fermanagh, and Cavan). I would think there was a considerable autosomal relationship between Ireland and Galloway/Ayr well before the Ulster Plantations.

I was wondering why the POBI didn't show evidence of Irish settlement in Wales. However, after seeing the maps they had before the Irish cluster was removed, I see a substantial amount in Wales and number of English locations!

I'm not completely sure how to read the PCA charts for the Irish DNA Atlas. I assume that for the symbols that represent a certain cluster, that whatever other symbol (representing another cluster) they are close to, that means they are closely related to it. Example, if yellow circles are close to yellow/green triangles, then those two clusters are closely related, if the yellow circles are far from the yellow/green triangles, then those two clusters aren't closely related.

Concerning the PCA charts, I have seen some that show some distancing between the yellow circles (the Scottish and English planters) and the yellow/green triangles (the Ulster Gaelic Irish and Gaelic Scots from West Scotland).

So, how do we reconcile the chart that shows a 45 percent Irish cluster in SW Scotland (home of most of the planters) with the distancing of the yellow circles (planters) from the yellow/green triangles (Gaelic Ulster Irish/Gaelic Western Scots) in some PCA charts? Perhaps, the distancing is in stages, where the two are closely related, but as the tests get more resolution, the clusters tend to draw apart showing that they have differences also.

I may be missing something on how to interpret all of the charts together to get a realistic idea of what amount of the Irish cluster SW Scotland, Wales, and England actually have. I'll be glad to learn from someone else.

MacUalraig
05-16-2016, 07:23 AM
Was the Forbes chiefly line descended from an Ochoncar? I don't know, but for them to use an Irish sounding name in a Lowland area like Aberdeen, where I doubt if very many people liked the Irish or the Highlanders in the 16th and 17th century, makes me think the belief was very strong.

Of interest also are the many Gaelic place names in Aberdeenshire. If I'm not mistaken, even Aberdeen is of Gaelic origin.

...

see http://bookofdeer.co.uk/

for Scotland's greatest Gaelic treasure - from Old Deer in Aberdeenshire.