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Táltos
08-12-2015, 05:00 AM
I'm hoping maybe I could get a little insight from members of the forum who are well-versed in the history of Spain, Portugal. Jewish history too. :)

I have noticed that my brother has three distant Y DNA matches from Portugal and Spain. Two of them are a GD of 7 on the 67 marker, the third tested only 37 marker and the GD is 4.

One man (and I only know this from reading another forum) is supposed to have descended from a Visigoth king. No Jewish history from what I can tell reading that forum. The kit has the most distant ancestor listed as being from Portugal in the early 1600s. I know this man has taken Big Y only because my brother's match who had taken that test asked me to help him understand his matches. I have emailed this kit, but unfortunately I have never heard back. :(

The next kit's family reports being from Zamora, Spain. No memory of this line being Jewish. Though the person who manages the kit said she wouldn't be surprised as the area they are from had many Jewish converts to Christianity. Both voluntarily and through force.

The third man's direct paternal line is thought to be Basque and from Spain. The family member that manages this kit also reported no Jewish ancestry as far they know.

The Gurianov et al. paper calls the Q-Y2200 group the Jewish Ashkenazi cluster. So now to my question(s)- finally. How is the Q-Y2200 exclusively Ashkenazi when looking at these particular kits?

1. Are they really Sephardic?
2. Was there migration of Ashkenazi to Portugal and Spain?
3. I don't know if I should even ask, but what the heck! Are they the Khazars that went to Toledo?
4. Could they have come there with the Visigoths?
5. Could they possibly have been in the region much longer than anyone would suspect?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

lgmayka
08-12-2015, 05:59 AM
YFull shows a TMRCA of only 1550 years for Q-Y2200 (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2200/). The parent of Q-Y2200 is Q-Y2225, which includes an Italian (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2225/) who diverged from (what would become) Q-Y2200 about 2500 years ago. The parent of Q-Y2225 is Q-Y2209, which includes a Turk (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2209/).

Thus, there is the possibility that Q-Y2200 in the Jewish community is an introgression from the Spanish.

Afshar
08-12-2015, 08:04 AM
There was also some minor trade of East European slaves in Spain, but with Igmaykas dates they make no sense.

Táltos
08-12-2015, 03:10 PM
YFull shows a TMRCA of only 1550 years for Q-Y2200 (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2200/). The parent of Q-Y2200 is Q-Y2225, which includes an Italian (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2225/) who diverged from (what would become) Q-Y2200 about 2500 years ago. The parent of Q-Y2225 is Q-Y2209, which includes a Turk (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2209/).

Thus, there is the possibility that Q-Y2200 in the Jewish community is an introgression from the Spanish.
Now that is a most interesting thought.

I see a sort of similar thread (to this one) was started in the R1a section recently. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5139-Haplogroup-R1a-distribution-in-Iberia

If I'm remembering correctly, Eupedia has had about R1a and Q1b traveling together. What do you make of that?

gravetti
08-12-2015, 06:48 PM
Now that is a most interesting thought.

I see a sort of similar thread (to this one) was started in the R1a section recently. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5139-Haplogroup-R1a-distribution-in-Iberia

If I'm remembering correctly, Eupedia has had about R1a and Q1b traveling together. What do you make of that?

Táltos,both R1a and Q1b were Khazars.

Gil Vicente
08-12-2015, 07:05 PM
1. Are they really Sephardic?

I'm not sure about that.


2. Was there migration of Ashkenazi to Portugal and Spain?

No, maybe a few ashkenazi people made their way into the Iberian Peninsula during WWII, but that was it i think. The jews went to the Iberian Peninsula during Roman times and they are known to be sephardic, not ashkenazi.


3. I don't know if I should even ask, but what the heck! Are they the Khazars that went to Toledo?

Not that i know of. The closest thing i can think of are the Alani:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg


4. Could they have come there with the Visigoths?

The Visigoths did move around before getting to the Iberian Peninsula, but Kazhars would be a bit far fetched.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Visigoth_migrations.jpg


5. Could they possibly have been in the region much longer than anyone would suspect?


Doubtful.

ADW_1981
08-12-2015, 07:37 PM
It's certainly possible that Khazars and Alans both fell into Q-Y2200 as the territory shows significant overlap. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some got picked up in the Visigothic armies either. What is the rough genetic distance between your brother and the mode Ashkenazi cluster?

parasar
08-12-2015, 08:12 PM
I'm hoping maybe I could get a little insight from members of the forum who are well-versed in the history of Spain, Portugal. Jewish history too. :)

I have noticed that my brother has three distant Y DNA matches from Portugal and Spain. Two of them are a GD of 7 on the 67 marker, the third tested only 37 marker and the GD is 4.

One man (and I only know this from reading another forum) is supposed to have descended from a Visigoth king. No Jewish history from what I can tell reading that forum. The kit has the most distant ancestor listed as being from Portugal in the early 1600s. I know this man has taken Big Y only because my brother's match who had taken that test asked me to help him understand his matches. I have emailed this kit, but unfortunately I have never heard back. :(

The next kit's family reports being from Zamora, Spain. No memory of this line being Jewish. Though the person who manages the kit said she wouldn't be surprised as the area they are from had many Jewish converts to Christianity. Both voluntarily and through force.

The third man's direct paternal line is thought to be Basque and from Spain. The family member that manages this kit also reported no Jewish ancestry as far they know.

The Gurianov et al. paper calls the Q-Y2200 group the Jewish Ashkenazi cluster. So now to my question(s)- finally. How is the Q-Y2200 exclusively Ashkenazi when looking at these particular kits?

1. Are they really Sephardic?
2. Was there migration of Ashkenazi to Portugal and Spain?
3. I don't know if I should even ask, but what the heck! Are they the Khazars that went to Toledo?
4. Could they have come there with the Visigoths?
5. Could they possibly have been in the region much longer than anyone would suspect?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

I have mentioned this connection few times.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1738-Rootsi-et-al-(2013)-Ashkenazi-Levite-R1a-Discussion-Thread&p=23441&viewfull=1#post23441
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1738-Rootsi-et-al-(2013)-Ashkenazi-Levite-R1a-Discussion-Thread&p=45115&viewfull=1#post45115

That the Visigoth were part Hun is entirely possible. It is the same Ashkenazi connection to the folk variously called Hun, Khazar, Kushan, Kedar.
https://books.google.com/books?id=yO-vCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA410
https://books.google.com/books?id=883OZBe2sMYC&pg=PA119
https://books.google.com/books?id=yO-vCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA326

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/pdf/jg2007c.pdf

MK.S 320,2–65:
odes aleksandre mepeman natesavni igi lotis šviltani c̣arikcina da šeqadna igini ḳedarsa
mas kueq̇anasa, ixilna natesavni sasṭiḳni bun-turkni, msxdomareni mdinaresa zeda
mṭḳuarsa mixuevit, otx kalakad, da dabnebi mati: sarḳine-kalaki, ḳasṗi, urbnisi da oʒraqe

MK.S. 320,7–16:
dauḳwrda aleksandres da cna, rametu ieboselta natesavni iq̇vnes: q̇ovelsa qorcielsa
č̣amdes da samare mati ara iq̇o, mḳudarsa šešč̣amdes. da ver eʒlo brʒolay mati mepesa
da c̣arvida. mašin movides natesavni mbrʒolni, kaldeveltagan gamosxmulni, honni, da
itxoves bun-turkta uplisagan kueq̇anay xarḳita. da dasxdes igini zanavs. ... da
šemdgomad raodenisa-me žamisa movida aleksandre, mepē q̇ovlisa kueq̇anisay, da
dalec̣na samni ese kalakni da cixeni, da honta dasca maxwli.

Táltos
08-12-2015, 08:57 PM
It's certainly possible that Khazars and Alans both fell into Q-Y2200 as the territory shows significant overlap. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some got picked up in the Visigothic armies either. What is the rough genetic distance between your brother and the mode Ashkenazi cluster?

If you are talking 12 marker he would be GD of 0 to most of them. 67 marker looks to be about 6. If we are looking at this project anyway. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_Q?iframe=ycolorized :) There are also some kits that probably shouldn't be under the Jewish group in that project. If the Q Y DNA project was still visible to the public everyone could see what a nice job they did grouping kits under the new SNPs. Under the Q-Y2200 there would be a further breakup of Ashkenazi such as Q-Y2750, Q-Y2780, Q-YP1004, Q-YP1003, Q-YP1035.

Since you brought up the modal, it made me think to use the filter. Two of these kits in question I can see are a GD of 0 to my brother on 12 marker. The most recent match that I noticed who reported the Basque and from Spain, does not show up on the 12. He shows as a GD of 2 at the 25 marker level. Unfortunately none of these kits are joined to the Q Project. I don't think think they are in any actually!

Thanks for all the comments so far guys.

Lugus
08-28-2015, 09:28 AM
Was there migration of Ashkenazi to Portugal and Spain?

There must have been some. For sure I know the Talmudist Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel (1250 or 1259 – 1327) who moved to Spain. Also his son is famous in the Jewish world as Ba'al ha-Turim. Probably there were also anonymous people. The policy in Iberia was that "you cannot live with us as Jews" (as opposed to "you cannot live with us" or "you cannot live"), so many Jews converted even before 1492.

TrickyDick
08-28-2015, 01:42 PM
This article doesn't directly relate to Spain but might be of interest.
http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/download/153/176

Táltos
08-28-2015, 02:18 PM
There must have been some. For sure I know the Talmudist Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel (1250 or 1259 – 1327) who moved to Spain. Also his son is famous in the Jewish world as Ba'al ha-Turim. Probably there were also anonymous people. The policy in Iberia was that "you cannot live with us as Jews" (as opposed to "you cannot live with us" or "you cannot live"), so many Jews converted even before 1492.

Thank you good to know. I am open to hearing all possibilities. Q1b is a minor subclade in the Jewish population, and I am most intrigued with it being in Portugal and Spain.

Keep the ideas coming guys! :)