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Dorkymon
08-12-2015, 11:26 AM
So, I knew for some weeks that I have the I2a2 haplogroup. However, I assumed that this is the common Balkanic haplogroup. Apparently that one is I2a1b or I-M423. I2a2 seems to occur in the Germanic people and it is pretty much rare everywhere else.
So, does anyone know if there were any studies about this haplogroup in these parts of Europe? It seems interesting that it exists here.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-12-2015, 11:38 AM
I2a2.
Hhhmm. I don't think its "Germanic" at all, actually. Its spread over vast areas of continental Europe- including Albanians (~up to 10%). Ask some of the other guys' opinions.

lgmayka
08-12-2015, 01:41 PM
I-M436 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-M436/) has two different sub-branches which diverged over 17,000 years ago. Are you referring more specifically to the rarer I-L38 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L38/), or the common I-M223 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-M223/) ?

Dorkymon
08-12-2015, 01:46 PM
I referred to I-M436 generally because I'm a newb at this. I got only i2a2 in the 23andme report. Is it possible to find out the sub-branch from the 23andme v4 raw data? Thanks

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

Krefter
08-12-2015, 01:55 PM
So, I knew for some weeks that I have the I2a2 haplogroup. However, I assumed that this is the common Balkanic haplogroup. Apparently that one is I2a1b or I-M423. I2a2 seems to occur in the Germanic people and it is pretty much rare everywhere else.
So, does anyone know if there were any studies about this haplogroup in these parts of Europe? It seems interesting that it exists here.

I2a2 is very old and not specif to Germanics. I2a2a has been found in Neolithic Spain, Bronze age Hungary, and Bronze age Russia. Your I2a2 doesn't have to be of Germanic origin, it could be from almost any European people who ran through Moldova at some point in time. The only specificity about I2a2, is that it probably comes from Mesolithic "WHG" who lived from Balkans-Ireland-Spain and today is pretty much exclusive to Europe.

eastara
08-12-2015, 10:27 PM
I2a2 at 23andMe is usually Dinaric. Depending on the chip version or the bug in assgnment Dinaric is reported as I2a2, I2a2b or I2a2a. If you are East European you most probably are Dinaric.

Dorkymon
08-12-2015, 11:06 PM
I saw many people who are found as I2a2b and I also encountered some that are I2a2a. I'm wondering why it couldn't have gone deeper for me too.

Krefter
08-12-2015, 11:18 PM
Were you given the SNP M436 or just the label I2a2? If you go to your raw data, test what you have for rs17315680. That's the I2a2-M436 SNP, if you have C allele it means you have I2a2-M436.

Dorkymon
08-12-2015, 11:35 PM
I was given only the label I2a2 and I found on eupedia and wikipedia that it's also called I-M436. No, I have G allele. I will read more about haplogroups.

ADW_1981
08-12-2015, 11:40 PM
I-M436 isn't I2a2 at 23andME, it's I2b1. That's why the heaviest concentration is found in western Europe on the map rather than eastern Europe. I2a2 at 23andMe is I-M423, and there are common subclades (today) in eastern Europe and Balkans.

Krefter
08-13-2015, 01:16 AM
I was given only the label I2a2 and I found on eupedia and wikipedia that it's also called I-M436. No, I have G allele. I will read more about haplogroups.

Okay, so you probably have the typical East European version of I2a1b. 23andme needs to update their nomenclature of haplogroups.

eastara
08-13-2015, 04:29 AM
You can see clearly which SNP is defined at 23andMe by going to ANCESTRY TOOLS -> HAPLOGROUP TREE MUTATION MAPPER
After entering I2a2 it will give you:

Paternal line (Y chromosome)

I2a2 defining mutations
variant call anc der
i4000125 (M423) G A
I2a defining mutations
variant call anc der
i4000184 (P37.2) T C

So I2a2 on 23andMe clearly means M423, which is now I2a1b on ISOGG tree. However, you can find if you are Dinaric (L621) or Isles (L161) by checking your raw data. There are a number of threads on the 23andMe forum explaining that.

I2a2, I2a2a and I2a2b, what do you have at rs9786274? If you have T, you are Dinaric or less likely Disles. If you have G you are probably Isles.

Dorkymon
08-13-2015, 06:49 AM
I2a2, I2a2a and I2a2b, what do you have at rs9786274? If you have T, you are Dinaric or less likely Disles. If you have G you are probably Isles.

The search does not find rs9786274 in the pool, so I assume it wasn't tested. Anyway, thanks for explaining, I was curious since on Chromosome X it is shown for me as around 70% French&German, while this component misses from everywhere else. So I thought it could have been related.

Boeck
03-12-2016, 10:23 PM
How about the I2b1* (with the star)?

HansDB
12-13-2016, 11:00 AM
@Dorkymon: what data do you have (SNPs? STRs?)

LePrieur
02-25-2019, 02:16 AM
I have been tested as I-L233, or I2a1c.

I have mostly British Isles, and Nortern France.

artemv
03-03-2019, 07:30 PM
I have mostly British Isles, and Nortern France.

When talking about Y-DNA only your father-line ancestry matters.
What do you know about your male-line ancestry? Who is the earliest male line relative you know about? Where is he from?

Rethel
03-04-2019, 07:45 AM
It cannot be germanic, as the I2 in general is pre [=before] germanic, and even non-IE.

artemv
03-04-2019, 03:57 PM
It cannot be germanic, as the I2 in general is pre [=before] germanic, and even non-IE.

I2 in general cannot be Germanic, but some specific branches can be Germanic.
The post itself was not about I2 in general, it was about I2-M436. But this branch is also too old to be called Germanic.
Non-IE branch can be Germanic, as Germanics do not trace all the 100% of their paternal ancestry to Indo-Europeans (they trace most of their paternal ancestry to IE, but not all).

And yes, some branches of I2 were found in the Yamnaya culture, and in pre-Yamnaya Sredny Stog culture. This means that those branches of I2 are Indo-european.

LePrieur
03-04-2019, 06:53 PM
When talking about Y-DNA only your father-line ancestry matters.
What do you know about your male-line ancestry? Who is the earliest male line relative you know about? Where is he from?

On my direct paternal I can trace back only to about the mid 1800s, and my ancestors were already colonial at that point. I know they are from the British Isles, but I can't say for sure what region.

Rethel
03-04-2019, 09:48 PM
but some specific branches can be Germanic.

This means that those branches of I2 are Indo-european.

Nope.

Ruderico
03-04-2019, 09:55 PM
Nope.

Quality posting Rethel.


He's right though, if a certain clade is generated within a Germanic-speaking group, labeling it "Germanic" is correct. Such as this one https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A8674/

artemv
03-04-2019, 10:13 PM
On my direct paternal I can trace back only to about the mid 1800s, and my ancestors were already colonial at that point. I know they are from the British Isles, but I can't say for sure what region.

L223 has TRMCA of 2100 ybp and has a number of branches, most of them are from British Isles.
There are also a few French and East European branches.

Rethel
03-20-2019, 08:57 PM
He's right though, if a certain clade is generated within a Germanic-speaking group, labeling it "Germanic" is correct.

Theoretically it seems like that, but in essence not, as it can lead to error.

Of course, everything in germanic countries you can call germanic.

Also Jews, Negros, Chineses, Poles, Pandas, Eskimoses, houses, forests, whatever - can be germanic, becasue is in germanic countries or among germanic people.

And what?

But the difference is, that among genetic topics, people are going to spread their own delusions and confuse adjectives with nouns, feature with essence.

So much better is to make it clear what such and such haplotype describes as description it often taken for the meritum.

GottfriedVandal
07-06-2020, 03:09 PM
I am I2a2 : this is the haplogroup related to "East Germans" (dead culture that included : Goths, Wisigoths, Ostrogoths, Crimean Goths, Vandals, Suebi people, Burgonds, and I might forget a few others). They are widespread because they retreated away from the terrible Huns but you can follow their way. Genetic maps correspond to their way (first you can search Thervingi goths and Greuthungi goths. Search Oium which was a Goth Kingdom in Ukraine. Science can't confirm any of this because this "east german" culture is dead but if you look at I2a2 maps and compare it to all the east germanic moves, you might be convinced as I am that it corresponds.

I2a2 : +/- est germanic dead tribes/languages
I1 : +/- north germanic
and the famous R1b : the west germans corresponding to the so called "indo european invasion" (as if I2a2 and I1 were not already IE in the mind of many researchers; in their mind IE language is quite recent then... of course I believe languages and tribes are a lot older than they think)

Of course I let you guys free to make your own opinion, just shared mine.

spruithean
07-06-2020, 09:01 PM
I am I2a2 : this is the haplogroup related to "East Germans" (dead culture that included : Goths, Wisigoths, Ostrogoths, Crimean Goths, Vandals, Suebi people, Burgonds, and I might forget a few others). They are widespread because they retreated away from the terrible Huns but you can follow their way. Genetic maps correspond to their way (first you can search Thervingi goths and Greuthungi goths. Search Oium which was a Goth Kingdom in Ukraine. Science can't confirm any of this because this "east german" culture is dead but if you look at I2a2 maps and compare it to all the east germanic moves, you might be convinced as I am that it corresponds.

I2a2 : +/- est germanic dead tribes/languages
I1 : +/- north germanic
and the famous R1b : the west germans corresponding to the so called "indo european invasion" (as if I2a2 and I1 were not already IE in the mind of many researchers; in their mind IE language is quite recent then... of course I believe languages and tribes are a lot older than they think)

Of course I let you guys free to make your own opinion, just shared mine.


The Suebi were not East Germanic, they were Elbe Germanic, which is a subgroup of the Western Germanic grouping. I wouldn't be so sure that I2a2 is related to the Eastern Germanic populations without an in-depth haplogroup test. Haplogroup I2a2 is quite old, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M436/. Similarly I1 is not solely North Germanic, quite a large number of I1 haplogroups are more prevalent in Western populations, and I recall an I1-Y6626 sample (IIRC is below I1-Z63, and another Z63 subclade was found among Longobards) was found in a Wielbark (a culture associated with early Goths) grave in Poland.