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lgmayka
08-20-2015, 11:37 PM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.


DF27+, P297+, P310+, P311+, L51+, P312+, L23+, L389+, L278+, M269+, M343+, M73-, MC14-, M335-, L371-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L238-, U106-, U152-, M153-, M65-, L176-, L21-, PF3252-, PF331-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, Z196-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-


As you can see, he is negative for everything downstream from DF27. He previously tested DF27 individually, otherwise we wouldn't even know that.

Didn't an expert claim that "by now, we won't be seeing any more singletons"? :)

Any donations for his Big Y, the next time a discount or coupon comes along?

alan
08-20-2015, 11:42 PM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.


DF27+, P297+, P310+, P311+, L51+, P312+, L23+, L389+, L278+, M269+, M343+, M73-, MC14-, M335-, L371-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L238-, U106-, U152-, M153-, M65-, L176-, L21-, PF3252-, PF331-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, Z196-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-


As you can see, he is negative for everything downstream from DF27. He previously tested DF27 individually, otherwise we wouldn't even know that.

Any donations for his Big Y, the next time a discount or coupon comes along?

So this basically means he is on a line from DF27 that branched off from the rest of the lines who share more recent common SNPs. I imagine he has as many SNPs as everyone else but they are effectively a massive line of 'private' SNPs. Interesting though that in present knowledge his last MRCA with the rest of DF27 is DF27 itself.

lgmayka
08-20-2015, 11:51 PM
Interesting though that in present knowledge his last MRCA with the rest of DF27 is DF27 itself.
YFull estimates the TMRCA of DF27 at 4600 years (http://yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/). Michał would raise that to 5060-5520 years (i.e., the second half of the 4th millennium B.C.).

Huntergatherer1066
08-21-2015, 12:06 AM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.


Is he a WAMH by any chance? I have an English WAMH DF27 in one of my projects that just came back as DF27** from the M343 panel as well, he is an interesting case. No matches beyond 12 markers, and of course the 12 marker matches span U106 and P312 clades.

VinceT
08-21-2015, 12:23 AM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.


DF27+, P297+, P310+, P311+, L51+, P312+, L23+, L389+, L278+, M269+, M343+, M73-, MC14-, M335-, L371-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L238-, U106-, U152-, M153-, M65-, L176-, L21-, PF3252-, PF331-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, Z196-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-


As you can see, he is negative for everything downstream from DF27. He previously tested DF27 individually, otherwise we wouldn't even know that.

Didn't an expert claim that "by now, we won't be seeing any more singletons"? :)

Any donations for his Big Y, the next time a discount or coupon comes along?

Save up for an NGS test, preferably from Full Genomes Corp. This is the ultimate end-goal for anyone and everyone who is seriously researching Y-DNA phylogeny.

And to be certain, continental Eurasian natives (particularly from central & eastern Europe, western Asia) are a virtual untapped reservoir of data. The majority of what we know from Big-Y comes from American descendants of colonists hailing from north-west Europe (usually Ireland and the UK), who are targeted again and again as FTDNA's primary market. Can anyone say Selection Bias?

I'll revise my opinion on that if / when FTDNA sponsors "Who Do You Think You Are" type events in France, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Austria, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, Switzerland, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, ... I can go on ...

lgmayka
08-21-2015, 12:40 AM
Is he a WAMH by any chance?
No, sorry. Here are his 67 markers:

13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15 16 17 17
11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 35 37 13 12
11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 13 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Huntergatherer1066
08-21-2015, 01:00 AM
No, sorry. Here are his 67 markers:

13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15 16 17 17
11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 35 37 13 12
11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 13 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Oh okay, looks like matches 27/37 but one of the ten is a null which adds a challenge. I've recommended BigY or FGC before, hopefully he'll go that route eventually especially in light of the null. Could be there was a deletion that included a downstream DF27 SNP, no way of really knowing without NGS.

lgmayka
08-21-2015, 01:54 AM
Oh okay, looks like matches 27/37 but one of the ten is a null which adds a challenge.
Where do you see a null?

ArmandoR1b
08-21-2015, 01:57 AM
Oh okay, looks like matches 27/37 but one of the ten is a null which adds a challenge. I've recommended BigY or FGC before, hopefully he'll go that route eventually especially in light of the null. Could be there was a deletion that included a downstream DF27 SNP, no way of really knowing without NGS.

There are several people that have had BigY and are still "DF27**" so don't be surprised if that person ends up in that situation. Of course they won't always be "DF27**" but how long is an unknown. The expected price drop of BigY could reduce the wait time for the detection of a new SNP.

Huntergatherer1066
08-21-2015, 02:54 AM
Where do you see a null?

It's a DYS458 null.

razyn
08-21-2015, 03:45 AM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.

As you can see, he is negative for everything downstream from DF27.

No, he's just negative for everything on that SNP pack downstream from DF27. It doesn't include a bunch of newer discoveries, some of them btw named by the same lab (assuming this was a YSEQ test).

Earl Davis
08-21-2015, 09:17 AM
Kit 196199 of Poland received his R1b SNP Pack results.


DF27+, P297+, P310+, P311+, L51+, P312+, L23+, L389+, L278+, M269+, M343+, M73-, MC14-, M335-, L371-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L238-, U106-, U152-, M153-, M65-, L176-, L21-, PF3252-, PF331-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, Z196-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-


As you can see, he is negative for everything downstream from DF27. He previously tested DF27 individually, otherwise we wouldn't even know that.



I don't think it's a surprise that that many DF27 people taking the panel tests are finding out very little or nothing new at all. Most of the current tests only include a fraction of the early branching snips. DF27 has a large number of less well known branches and many of those branches occur in problematic areas. I have posted a longer thread which may be relevant here..

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5215-The-occurrence-of-DF27-subclades-and-where-they-are-tested&p=103870&posted=1#post103870

lgmayka
08-21-2015, 10:21 AM
No, he's just negative for everything on that SNP pack downstream from DF27. It doesn't include a bunch of newer discoveries, some of them btw named by the same lab (assuming this was a YSEQ test).
No, I'm referring to FTDNA's R1b-M343 SNP Pack.

Earl Davis
08-21-2015, 12:53 PM
No, I'm referring to FTDNA's R1b-M343 SNP Pack.

That's pretty interesting then. I noticed that ZZ12 was not included afterall. Although ZZ12 has it's detractors it would have been a useful clue as to what to test next. Without ZZ12 the R1b panel will only identify about 53% of DF27's subclades at the 2nd level of the tree under DF27 leaving the other 47% of DF27 testers at P312.

razyn
08-21-2015, 01:03 PM
A good place to look, currently, is the new thread Earl Davis started today: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5215-The-occurrence-of-DF27-subclades-and-where-they-are-tested

Though it has sort of an Ozymandias ring to it ("Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair"). See especially the graphic Earl included in post #5, which probably will not be valid by Monday, assuming Alex is not too busy to update the Big Tree with new data I hope to get to him over the weekend. (Both the YFull tree and the sorted groups in the DF27 haplogroup project reveal more SNPs, as far as we know at high levels, not found on the Big Tree because nobody with those variants has yet uploaded a NextGen file to a site Alex can mine.) The DF27 tree is expanding so rapidly, with NextGen sequencing, that one cannot realistically expect a cheap test, this summer, that covers everything. Even a BigY doesn't cover everything that's already known -- though it typically still discovers stuff that isn't. But those discoveries often can be seen only in the .bed file, or even the BAM file, and therefore are initially invisible to the kit owner as well as the DF27 project administrators.

I have commented elsewhere about the relative uselessness of the M343 Backbone pack for persons who already know they are DF27+. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5027-R1b-M343-Backbone-SNP-Pack-FTDNA&p=103842&viewfull=1#post103842

Lugus
08-21-2015, 01:36 PM
If I was getting into genetic testing for the first time I would plunge immediately into a NGS test and at least for now forget about Mtdna and autosomal. Ydna has a sharpness and certainty that you don't find in the other DNAs, especially if you're interested in prehistorical and historical movements of people. This I find rewarding. I hope NGS tests become cheaper and more popular everywhere, not just in English speaking countries.

lgmayka
08-23-2015, 02:35 PM
I don't think it's a surprise that that many DF27 people taking the panel tests are finding out very little or nothing new at all. Most of the current tests only include a fraction of the early branching snips. DF27 has a large number of less well known branches and many of those branches occur in problematic areas.
#196199 of Poland tested negative for these subclades:
BY653
CTS11567
DF81
DF83
FGC20761
L617
L881
Y5058
Z225
Z2573
Z195

The only additional subclade testable by Yseq, as far as I can tell, is Z2571 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1452).

REWM
08-23-2015, 03:35 PM
Have you went thru these under zz12?
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31

MJost
08-23-2015, 03:44 PM
FYI

ZZ12 has a 100.0% identity match with another area of the Y +19736381 to 19736880 and wont be able to have a single SNP Sanger sequence done (as done in a SNP pack). NGS shared appears to be stable with this large number o results.

MJost

corner
08-23-2015, 04:44 PM
("Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair")Or, "Look at the currently known deep DF27>ZZ12 subclades on the Big Tree, the YFull tree, Earl's diagram and around a couple of years of messages regarding DF27+ Z195- NGS testing at the DF27 Yahoo Group ye mighty - and include as many of them as possible in any updated R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack - please and thanks."

lgmayka
08-23-2015, 10:25 PM
Have you went thru these under zz12?
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31
But not all of them are reasonably testable outside of the Big Y (or FullGenomes), which is not economically feasible for this person.