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Christina
08-24-2015, 04:39 PM
Per 23andme's own literature, 92% of German DNA does not get labeled as such in your results.

That's because they only have an 8% "recall" for German and French DNA.

The largest plurality of Americans are of German heritage (more than English, more than Irish).

That's an awful lot of customers getting more generic results than ideal.

I am not complaining, just posting this for people who wonder where their German results went.

I have a colleague here at school who is 100% German, born in Germany, blonde, blue, the whole package, traced ancestry to 1600s (all German), and she came up as substantially "Generic European," including some odd generic southern European stuff. Just about 5% "German or French."

23andme is great. A wonderful service. But those of German (or Austrian or Swiss or French or Benelux) ancestry should remember: caveat emptor.

evon
08-24-2015, 06:14 PM
You get a similar autosomal problem with regards to FTDNA, they too seem to struggle with central European signatures..

MatAust21
08-24-2015, 06:27 PM
Luckily, I don't have that problem. I'm about 37.5% German, and 23andme gives me ~30% French and German.

23andme's AC gives me way more accurate results than FTDNA and Ancestry.

Mac von Frankfurt
08-24-2015, 06:58 PM
During the great migration various German tribes buzzed around Europe and North Africa like bees around a hive. It does not surprise me that it is difficult to discern an autosomal signal unique to the current nation of Germany.

CelticGerman
08-24-2015, 08:07 PM
Well, it seems Germans are quite mixed. Not surprising if you look at German history. I'm German with 96.6% German ancestry, of which 70% North German (calculated on the basis of known ancestry). 23andMe gave me only 3.2% French/German in standard mode. With speculative mode it was 26.0% (and 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British/Irish, 1.6% South European). In any case there is not a single German genetic signature. North German samples must be seperated from samples from other German regions, if you want to have a clearer picture. With GEDmatch calculators I got North German as well as North Dutch or some British (Argyll, Orcadian, Irish).

23andMe: My four children got 11.9/14/15.8/26.7% French/German from me, but nearly 50% from their mother, who is French.

Christina
08-25-2015, 02:52 AM
Well, it seems Germans are quite mixed. Not surprising if you look at German history. I'm German with 96.6% German ancestry, of which 70% North German (calculated on the basis of known ancestry). 23andMe gave me only 3.2% French/German in standard mode. With speculative mode it was 26.0% (and 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British/Irish, 1.6% South European). In any case there is not a single German genetic signature. North German samples must be seperated from samples from other German regions, if you want to have a clearer picture. With GEDmatch calculators I got North German as well as North Dutch or some British (Argyll, Orcadian, Irish).

23andMe: My four children got 11.9/14/15.8/26.7% French/German from me, but nearly 50% from their mother, who is French.

I don't doubt some of the statements you made, since Germany (and France) ARE toward the wide-open center of Europe. But then again, so is Poland, etc. Scientists have stated before that there are tiny differences between Poles and Germans, and yet 23andme purports to be able to discern Polish blood as "Eastern European."

Some of the other statements you made, I respectfully, but strongly disagree. "Germans are quite mixed." So are Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, British, etc. In fact, aside from the well-documented outliers in Europe (Sardinians, Finns, Irish, Turks, Basques), ALL Europeans are quite mixed -- yet apparently 23andme can tell them apart.

Táltos
08-25-2015, 03:22 AM
I don't doubt some of the statements you made, since Germany (and France) ARE toward the wide-open center of Europe. But then again, so is Poland, etc. Scientists have stated before that there are tiny differences between Poles and Germans, and yet 23andme purports to be able to discern Polish blood as "Eastern European."

Some of the other statements you made, I respectfully, but strongly disagree. "Germans are quite mixed." So are Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, British, etc. In fact, aside from the well-documented outliers in Europe (Sardinians, Finns, Irish, Turks, Basques), ALL Europeans are quite mixed -- yet apparently 23andme can tell them apart.

The "precision and recall" is poor for Germans and French. https://www.23andme.com/ancestry_composition_guide/
They have no trouble labeling Poland under Eastern European. My paternal great grandparents came from northeast Poland. My father's mother's parents were Rusyns from Eastern Slovakia. I am listed as 41.9% Eastern European in their Speculative mode. The other modes are worthless IMHO as my mother and I had large amounts of Unassigned in them. At FTDNA I'm 46% Eastern European. The old Population Finder at FTDNA could not place me properly as being at least 1/2 Eastern European.

Táltos
08-25-2015, 03:24 AM
Per 23andme's own literature, 92% of German DNA does not get labeled as such in your results.

That's because they only have an 8% "recall" for German and French DNA.

The largest plurality of Americans are of German heritage (more than English, more than Irish).

That's an awful lot of customers getting more generic results than ideal.

I am not complaining, just posting this for people who wonder where their German results went.

I have a colleague here at school who is 100% German, born in Germany, blonde, blue, the whole package, traced ancestry to 1600s (all German), and she came up as substantially "Generic European," including some odd generic southern European stuff. Just about 5% "German or French."

23andme is great. A wonderful service. But those of German (or Austrian or Swiss or French or Benelux) ancestry should remember: caveat emptor.

BTW not all Germans are blonde and blue eyed.

Reith
08-25-2015, 02:08 PM
I agree somewhat....

Tolan
08-25-2015, 04:45 PM
All European descended from the same ancestors, thus, the difference between countries comes mainly from genetic drift.
I think the British have fewer ancestors than German or French.
German and French are undoubtedly genetically more varied, and can have genes in common with the British, the Spanish and Italians (especially for South French), Eastern European or Scandinavian (especially for German).
Which would specifically German and French, becomes very small ..

CelticGerman
08-25-2015, 05:20 PM
I don't know which samples 23andMe is using. If they have above all samples from Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Bade, Hesse or Palatinate I am sure a North German sample would be classified as English or Dutch or Scandinavian. GEDmatch calculators put me closer to all these groups than to West or South Germans or Austrians. Another problem might be samples are not from current Germans but from US citizens telling they have German ancestry (is it always right? Do they know enough concerning the regions where their ancestors came from?).

By the way, I'm not blond and I don't have blue eyes. A taxi driver in Kuwait several years ago was convinced I'm a Syrian :).

Reith
08-25-2015, 05:26 PM
I really do not know why they group French and German together.....

CelticGerman
08-25-2015, 05:40 PM
I really do not know why they group French and German together.....

Nobody knows I'm afraid. They could group people from Alsace/Loraine together with people from Saarland/Palatinate for sure, but people from Marseilles are completely different from people from Hamburg or Leipzig.

vettor
08-25-2015, 06:42 PM
I don't know which samples 23andMe is using. If they have above all samples from Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Bade, Hesse or Palatinate I am sure a North German sample would be classified as English or Dutch or Scandinavian. GEDmatch calculators put me closer to all these groups than to West or South Germans or Austrians. Another problem might be samples are not from current Germans but from US citizens telling they have German ancestry (is it always right? Do they know enough concerning the regions where their ancestors came from?).

By the way, I'm not blond and I don't have blue eyes. A taxi driver in Kuwait several years ago was convinced I'm a Syrian :).

many Germans of US citizens are from Pommerania or Prussia and currently live in the states of NY and minnesota, these German regions ( pomerania and prussia ) are in Poland and Lithuania now.

In regards to Austrians, 23andme note them as german and or Italian, while switzerland falls in france and germany..........well , that's what they state to me.

so , if you are swiss they take a percentage of
French & German

Connected to the British Isles, Scandinavia, southern Europe and eastern Europe, France and Germany have seen myriad peoples come and go over the last ten thousand years. Genetically and geographically the French and Germans are at the heart of Europe.
Population Source Sample Size
Germany 23andMe 367
Netherlands 23andMe 207
France 23andMe 200
Switzerland 23andMe 87
Belgium 23andMe 80
Austria 23andMe 54
France HGDP 29

the swiss numbers to be used in "broadly northern european "

tchekitchek
08-25-2015, 11:53 PM
I got 53% on speculative mode, and I'm from Belgium. I just consider "French and German" as "continental European" and nothing specifically French or German.

Christina
08-26-2015, 02:37 AM
Very good point, CelticGerman, that those from Marseilles are VERY different from those from Hamburg.

The future for 23andme is to simply code each European country by province or county. I mean, with our powerful computers and such, how hard can it be to look for patterns and augment the variables. True, there would be low sample size for many counties, and there are so many Americans who may not know from which precise region their ancestors hailed.

But lumping Southern French (Greeklike, certainly Italianlike) with Northern Germans (Anglo-like) is silly. And then not being able to even predict that a Hessian is a German is even sillier and is one place where they could improve.

It is still all amazing though, if you think about it. A great product overall.

Mac von Frankfurt
08-26-2015, 03:57 AM
The "precision and recall" is poor for Germans and French. https://www.23andme.com/ancestry_composition_guide/
.

This plot from the above link demonstrates the limitation of the approach used by 23andMe. I don't know if it has to do with which locations on the chromosomes 23andMe uses or it is just inherent to the mixture across Europe. Germans are the light blue arrows pointing left located just above the mass of black stars which represent the UK. It would be a lot clearer if the UK was left out of the plot but this would probably not appeal to many of the 23andMe customers. What would be nice is to have an interactive plot so you could bring the markers of interest to the front.

5680

If you go to the above link it will be a little clearer.

CelticGerman
08-26-2015, 04:23 AM
This plot from the above link demonstrates the limitation of the approach used by 23andMe. I don't know if it has to do with which locations on the chromosomes 23andMe uses or it is just inherent to the mixture across Europe. Germans are the light blue arrows pointing left located just above the mass of black stars which represent the UK. It would be a lot clearer if the UK was left out of the plot but this would probably not appeal to many of the 23andMe customers. What would be nice is to have an interactive plot so you could bring the markers of interest to the front.

5680

If you go to the above link it will be a little clearer.

Did you try Interpretome?

Roaring
08-27-2015, 01:48 PM
Nobody knows I'm afraid. They could group people from Alsace/Loraine together with people from Saarland/Palatinate for sure, but people from Marseilles are completely different from people from Hamburg or Leipzig.

Problem is that there genetic regions of Europe don't match the political borders. Geographical borders are much better in this regard.

For example in Germany it's Elbe and Rhine. East to Elbe people start to become Eastern-Euro shifted compared to "average German" and south to Rhine they become South-West Euro shifted. North and West of thoose rivers Germans are more similar to North Dutch and Danes.



About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.

From my understanding French and German pop. reffers exactly to this genetical cluster, so Wallon may be much more F&G than Shlezwgian or Brandenburger fe.



This kinda proofs my theory

I got 53% on speculative mode, and I'm from Belgium. I just consider "French and German" as "continental European" and nothing specifically French or German.






I'm myself about 6.25 German+6.25 Swedish (likely mixed with German) and get 1% F&G and 1.4% Scando + ~12% Broadly North Euro, which surprised me at first.

leonardo
08-27-2015, 03:10 PM
Problem is that there genetic regions of Europe don't match the political borders. Geographical borders are much better in this regard.

For example in Germany it's Elbe and Rhine. East to Elbe people start to become Eastern-Euro shifted compared to "average German" and south to Rhine they become South-West Euro shifted. North and West of thoose rivers Germans are more similar to North Dutch and Danes.



About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.

From my understanding French and German pop. reffers exactly to this genetical cluster, so Wallon may be much more F&G than Shlezwgian or Brandenburger fe.



This kinda proofs my theory







I'm myself about 6.25 German+6.25 Swedish (likely mixed with German) and get 1% F&G and 1.4% Scando + ~12% Broadly North Euro, which surprised me at first.

For me, 23andMe doesn't help much with my German ancestry, which appears to be about 25% south and western German and maybe about the same in the old Prussian Poland provinces. I get plenty of northern or broadly European. That doesn't help much with a situation where one has a sizable Polish- German ancestry.

Tolan
08-27-2015, 05:52 PM
I got 53% on speculative mode, and I'm from Belgium. I just consider "French and German" as "continental European" and nothing specifically French or German.

Interesting to know which is the more French & German in 23andMe!
Maybe it's in the Benelux ...
I'm 100% French (NW), and I have only 16.4%.
Other:
34% British & Irish
6.7% Iberian
Italian 1.4%
0.6% Eastern Euro

CelticGerman
08-27-2015, 05:53 PM
[QUOTE=Roaring;105020]
About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.



Old Frankish regions. North of it you will have Saxons/Frisians/North Dutch.

Tolan
08-27-2015, 05:59 PM
About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.



Yes I confirm..
In genetic calculators, I am very close to the south-Dutch, South-German or Belgian

Bleuteufel
08-27-2015, 06:00 PM
TribeCode also has a problem with German ancestry. My German ancestry from my North West German grandmother is being read as British + Dutch with no German ancestry reported despite having a 1% threshold for confidence. (I get 13% Fr/Ger on 23andme's ancestry composition.)

tchekitchek
08-28-2015, 12:20 AM
Interesting to know which is the more French & German in 23andMe!
Maybe it's in the Benelux ...
I'm 100% French (NW), and I have only 16.4%.
Other:
34% British & Irish
6.7% Iberian
Italian 1.4%
0.6% Eastern Euro
Weird that we have so different results on 23andme, but on Gedmatch it's different, I usually have very similar results to French people (but I've a bit higher Atlantic for some reason) and to some west/south-western Germans too (but I've got a slightly lower Baltic).

Jessie
09-02-2015, 03:31 AM
I don't doubt some of the statements you made, since Germany (and France) ARE toward the wide-open center of Europe. But then again, so is Poland, etc. Scientists have stated before that there are tiny differences between Poles and Germans, and yet 23andme purports to be able to discern Polish blood as "Eastern European."

Some of the other statements you made, I respectfully, but strongly disagree. "Germans are quite mixed." So are Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, British, etc. In fact, aside from the well-documented outliers in Europe (Sardinians, Finns, Irish, Turks, Basques), ALL Europeans are quite mixed -- yet apparently 23andme can tell them apart.

Irish aren't outliers in Europe at all. They cluster right in with North Western Europe and don't form much of their own cluster at all. They overlap with British, Dutch and Norwegians on most plots I've seen.

GailT
09-02-2015, 03:45 AM
FTDNA still has difficulty getting German ancestry correct, but they is greatly improved compared to a year ago when they had no German reference populations and therefore no possibility of German ancestry. Hopefully all the companies will continue to improve as they develop better reference population data.

Erik
09-05-2015, 07:02 PM
During the great migration various German tribes buzzed around Europe and North Africa like bees around a hive. It does not surprise me that it is difficult to discern an autosomal signal unique to the current nation of Germany.

Germanic tribes in North Africa?

Mac von Frankfurt
09-05-2015, 07:32 PM
Germanic tribes in North Africa?

I have seen arrows on maps labeled Vandals. That is all I know about the subject.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period

Cinnamon orange
09-14-2015, 10:22 PM
I get 3% Europe West on Ancestry - 23andme gives 13.9 French and German. One grandfather was of German descent, a mix of north and south German with a sprinkling of Swiss and Austrian.

Gray Fox
09-15-2015, 12:44 AM
I don't know which samples 23andMe is using. If they have above all samples from Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Bade, Hesse or Palatinate I am sure a North German sample would be classified as English or Dutch or Scandinavian. GEDmatch calculators put me closer to all these groups than to West or South Germans or Austrians. Another problem might be samples are not from current Germans but from US citizens telling they have German ancestry (is it always right? Do they know enough concerning the regions where their ancestors came from?).

By the way, I'm not blond and I don't have blue eyes. A taxi driver in Kuwait several years ago was convinced I'm a Syrian :).

If that was the case, then I would show much higher than the measly 6.2% that I show for their German/French cluster in speculative mode. In all other modes I don't even show up for their German/French cluster. Roughly 25-30% of my known ancestry is from the Palatinate region and a few Swiss speaking Germans. Ftdna seems to have a better data base, which places me at 30% for their central Euro cluster. What is your west central Euro for ftdna, if you've had the their test performed?

CelticGerman
09-15-2015, 04:50 AM
If that was the case, then I would show much higher than the measly 6.2% that I show for their German/French cluster in speculative mode. In all other modes I don't even show up for their German/French cluster. Roughly 25-30% of my known ancestry is from the Palatinate region and a few Swiss speaking Germans. Ftdna seems to have a better data base, which places me at 30% for their central Euro cluster. What is your west central Euro for ftdna, if you've had the their test performed?

I am not sure FTDNA does better. My FTDNA result is 58% Scandinavia, 18% Eastern Europe, 13% British Isles, 11% South Europe. Western and Central Europe even not mentioned! Same for my French wife (53% South Europe, 28% British Isles, 18% Eastern Europe, 1% Middle East).

Lugus
09-15-2015, 07:10 AM
My opinion is that autosomal testing only gives a rough idea about someone's ancestry. I also get 3.4% French and German at 23andMe (1% in standard) although I'm 100% Portuguese and it's very unlikely that I have any French or German ancestors in the last 500 years. The same for British and Irish, of which I get 1.6%. These ancestries show up again in the oracles of Gedmatch under different names and they might be some "background radiation" remaining from prehistorical migrations or the Migration Period.

Gray Fox
09-15-2015, 04:07 PM
I am not sure FTDNA does better. My FTDNA result is 58% Scandinavia, 18% Eastern Europe, 13% British Isles, 11% South Europe. Western and Central Europe even not mentioned! Same for my French wife (53% South Europe, 28% British Isles, 18% Eastern Europe, 1% Middle East).

That's sort of what someone in your position should expect to see though, isn't it? If you're primarily of north German descent, then I can see you clustering closer to a north sea sort of category versus a central euro/southern Germany one. Your French wife's results aren't that surprising either. I tend to view France, the more western half anyways, as being more Atlantic/Mediterranean than central Euro. It's not perfect, but I think it is definitely better than 23&me's base.

CelticGerman
09-15-2015, 07:11 PM
That's sort of what someone in your position should expect to see though, isn't it? If you're primarily of north German descent, then I can see you clustering closer to a north sea sort of category versus a central euro/southern Germany one. Your French wife's results aren't that surprising either. I tend to view France, the more western half anyways, as being more Atlantic/Mediterranean than central Euro. It's not perfect, but I think it is definitely better than 23&me's base.

But no Western and Central Europe at all? And the best are the results of my children: One son has 45% Western and Central Europe, the other three children have nothing in this category. Any explanation?

Gray Fox
09-15-2015, 07:22 PM
But no Western and Central Europe at all? And the best are the results of my children: One son has 45% Western and Central Europe, the other three children have nothing in this category. Any explanation?

Honestly no, I don't have an answer for you. Though I've seen similar cases where an individual will be drastically different from their parents. As I said, none of the companies are perfect, but I feel that compared to 23&me, Ftdna still has the better data-base for German. Though I may be suffering from a confirmation bias as well :)

vettor
09-15-2015, 07:47 PM
I read recently , that testing companies are nearly 100% accurate in splitting AuDNA European from African from Asian, but have more difficulty in splitting within these areas...example, it is far harder to split an Irish person from a polish person, than to split a European from a middle-easterner.

so, 23andme seem to be unable to split the french from the germans or swiss as they are placed together...............................

ArmandoR1b
09-16-2015, 02:31 AM
I read recently , that testing companies are nearly 100% accurate in splitting AuDNA European from African from Asian, but have more difficulty in splitting within these areas...example, it is far harder to split an Irish person from a polish person, than to split a European from a middle-easterner.

so, 23andme seem to be unable to split the french from the germans or swiss as they are placed together...............................

Of course, because only the groups that have been isolated for 2,000 or more years have enough drift to be easily distinguishable. The German territory is at a crossroad with lots of different groups attributing to their European genetic makeup. Some European groups are a bit easier to distinguish at 23andme such as Iberian. I haven't seen FTDNA to be any better overall than 23andme or 23andme better overall than FTDNA for German.

Theconqueror
02-29-2016, 03:27 PM
The finer details of European DNA will only come to light when a Euro-centric company starts offering these products.

Thanathos
02-29-2016, 04:44 PM
My results as a northern french : http://tof.canardpc.com/preview2/66c61ff7-0948-40e6-8e9e-947b0cfbca6f.jpg (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/66c61ff7-0948-40e6-8e9e-947b0cfbca6f.jpg)

On Gedmatch ( Eurogenes K13 and 15 ), i'm closer to south dutch, west german and southwestern/eastern english than french so I guess that until they don't collect a massive number of samples from precise regions, we're stuck with that kind of results. The best way to understand those a bit more is to make comparisons between our results .

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-29-2016, 07:07 PM
How do they tell British/English people descended from Germans, from Germans descended from Germans? Most people in Britain came from the continent, some more recently than others. :)

Helgenes50
02-29-2016, 07:26 PM
How do they tell British/English people descended from Germans, from Germans descended from Germans? Most people in Britain came from the continent, some more recently than others. :)

Without forgetting that Rathlin was already similar to a German Bell Beaker

Dimanto
02-29-2016, 10:32 PM
Luckily, I don't have that problem. I'm about 37.5% German, and 23andme gives me ~30% French and German.

23andme's AC gives me way more accurate results than FTDNA and Ancestry.

It just means that you match the reference population used for French/German for 30 %. Others might deviate from the norm and thus being thrown into other groups that best suits their autosomes.

Jessie
07-20-2016, 11:21 AM
This is an interesting discussion around French & German. If anyone looked at the PoBI they broke down the different influences in Britain and Northern Ireland. It is all to do with labelling. It would be great if a similar study was done in other European countries. British & Irish hides a lot of other European influences.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-20-2016, 08:11 PM
This is an interesting discussion around French & German. If anyone looked at the PoBI they broke down the different influences in Britain and Northern Ireland. It is all to do with labelling. It would be great if a similar study was done in other European countries. British & Irish hides a lot of other European influences.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf

I'm not very good at interpreting these pie charts, but the Spanish influence in the West and North, but not in the South East is interesting. Might this and the Northern French reflect Celtic" cultures? German in the South and East of England is smaller than I would have expected but higher along the West coast.

Jessie
07-21-2016, 08:31 AM
I'm not very good at interpreting these pie charts, but the Spanish influence in the West and North, but not in the South East is interesting. Might this and the Northern French reflect Celtic" cultures? German in the South and East of England is smaller than I would have expected but higher along the West coast.

Spanish influence is minimal in all areas. What is interesting is that Cluster 17 which represents N and NE France has missed out in Wales completely but is present in all other areas. West Germany and NW France are reasonably represented in all areas and I think this might possibly be due to Rheanish Bell Beakers similar to Rathlin. It would be great to be able to pinpoint the reasons for the lack of Cluster 17 in Wales.

It's also possible that the NW France cluster is just showing similarity because of the movement of Cornish and Welsh to Brittanny.

Shaikorth
07-21-2016, 08:59 AM
Rathlin-like connection is possible, Welsh are closer to even Yamnaya than the SE English.

Jessie
07-21-2016, 10:10 AM
Rathlin-like connection is possible, Welsh are closer to even Yamnaya than the SE English.

Rathlin also shows most similarity to Scots, Irish and Welsh (in that order) and then German/Austrian and French before English which is interesting.

mouse
07-21-2016, 11:31 AM
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
R1b-DF21 Rathlin Islander, Gedmatch ID M232268, 2,200 BC.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

Helgenes50
07-21-2016, 11:33 AM
Rathlin also shows most similarity to Scots, Irish and Welsh (in that order) and then German/Austrian and French before English which is interesting.

And when you look at the map of the study, NW France, i.e. Brittany and Normandy are very similar to him

avalon
07-21-2016, 02:53 PM
I'm not very good at interpreting these pie charts, but the Spanish influence in the West and North, but not in the South East is interesting. Might this and the Northern French reflect Celtic" cultures? German in the South and East of England is smaller than I would have expected but higher along the West coast.

As Jesse said the Spanish component is low in all the UK clusters but according to the supplementary it is highest in North Wales at 7.1% and lowest in the red English cluster at 1.2%. This may be of some small significance, I don't know.

avalon
07-21-2016, 05:05 PM
Spanish influence is minimal in all areas. What is interesting is that Cluster 17 which represents N and NE France has missed out in Wales completely but is present in all other areas. West Germany and NW France are reasonably represented in all areas and I think this might possibly be due to Rheanish Bell Beakers similar to Rathlin. It would be great to be able to pinpoint the reasons for the lack of Cluster 17 in Wales.

It sure is a mystery. I used to think that FRA17 may have reflected an Iron Age population movement that completely bypassed Wales for whatever reason. But now I am thinking that genetic drift within the Welsh population is a possible explanation.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-21-2016, 08:20 PM
As Jesse said the Spanish component is low in all the UK clusters but according to the supplementary it is highest in North Wales at 7.1% and lowest in the red English cluster at 1.2%. This may be of some small significance, I don't know.

Would there be any differentiation between Spanish and Basque genetically?

Jessie
07-22-2016, 05:24 AM
Would there be any differentiation between Spanish and Basque genetically?

Yes there is. Basques form their own cluster and are a more isolated population. There are other differences as well as they appear to have less Steppe ancestry but someone else might be able to add more information.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-22-2016, 06:56 AM
Yes there is. Basques form their own cluster and are a more isolated population. There are other differences as well as they appear to have less Steppe ancestry but someone else might be able to add more information.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

I suppose I was wondering whether what is described as Spanish in relation to certain parts of Britain like North Wales could have a closer affinity with Basques. I understand Basques have a high percentage of people with O negative blood and there have been various theories about whether this may reflect an ancient population or genetic drift in a relatively isolated community.

vettor
07-22-2016, 07:12 AM
Yes there is. Basques form their own cluster and are a more isolated population. There are other differences as well as they appear to have less Steppe ancestry but someone else might be able to add more information.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

it amazes me how Greek sits between tuscan and south-italian

avalon
07-22-2016, 09:01 AM
I suppose I was wondering whether what is described as Spanish in relation to certain parts of Britain like North Wales could have a closer affinity with Basques. I understand Basques have a high percentage of people with O negative blood and there have been various theories about whether this may reflect an ancient population or genetic drift in a relatively isolated community.

Here's what the PoBI paper said about Spanish component.


Some earlier analyses of genetic evidence from single marker systems have argued
for a Spanish source for ancient British populations, particularly in the west. We
see contributions to the ancestry profiles of all the UK clusters from group SFS31
which is sampled in central France and in Spain (principally Barcelona). These
contributions range from a low of 1.2% in the large cluster in central and southern
England (red squares), to the three highest values ranging from 5.3% to 7.1% for
the three Welsh clusters. Whilst caution is needed in interpreting the low levels of
contribution from SFS31, this pattern is consistent with limited early migrations,
from these areas of Europe, preferentially to the western coastal regions of the UK.
Our data has limitations, in that our sampling in Spain is limited geographically, and
includes very few samples from the most natural geographical source regions for
Britain, namely Galicia, northern Spain, or the Basque country. If these regions did
contribute substantially to British ancestry, we would expect that our approach for
estimating ancestry profiles would choose the best surrogates for them in our data,
which is likely to be the geographically closest of the groups in our analyses, namely
SFS31. Analyses could be further complicated by possible admixture of North-
African migrants with Spanish populations subsequent to any movements into the
UK. Thus, while our data supports some low level of ancestry from southern
France/Spain in ancient British populations it is hard to reconcile with major
contributions to modern British ancestry from these regions. More extensive
sampling from modern Spain could further clarify this issue.

avalon
07-22-2016, 09:24 AM
West Germany and NW France are reasonably represented in all areas and I think this might possibly be due to Rheanish Bell Beakers similar to Rathlin.

You might be onto something there. Looking at the Irish Bronze Age rathlin 1 heatmap there is a hot spot in central Germany so perhaps this reflects a Celtic/Bell Beaker/Rathlin connection between modern populations in Germany and those in Celtic parts of the Isles which is also seen in the West Germany cluster 6 from PoBI.



10551

Jean M
07-22-2016, 12:22 PM
I understand Basques have a high percentage of people with O negative blood and there have been various theories about whether this may reflect an ancient population or genetic drift in a relatively isolated community.

Genetic drift in a relatively isolated community might well explain the unusual percentage of blood group O rhesus negative.

The idea that Basques are a relict population from the deep, hunter-gatherer past of Europe was a popular one among European scholars for many decades. This was based on the blood group and their non-Indo-European language. It seemed logical. I accepted the idea myself without question when I first came across it in the 1960s. However, once DNA started talking, it began to give out quite a different message. The Basques carry Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups similiar to those of their neighbours, though a Basque cluster can be detected autosomally. Once we had ancient DNA, it became clear that no population in Europe today is of 100% unmixed WHG (western hunter-gatherer) origin. The Basques are stronger than average in the EEF (early European farmer) signature, and lower than average in ANE (Ancestral Northern European). This makes sense since ANE is correlated with Indo-European speakers.

wombatofthenorth
07-23-2016, 12:13 AM
Genetic drift in a relatively isolated community might well explain the unusual percentage of blood group O rhesus negative.

The idea that Basques are a relict population from the deep, hunter-gatherer past of Europe was a popular one among European scholars for many decades. This was based on the blood group and their non-Indo-European language. It seemed logical. I accepted the idea myself without question when I first came across it in the 1960s. However, once DNA started talking, it began to give out quite a different message. The Basques carry Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups similiar to those of their neighbours, though a Basque cluster can be detected autosomally. Once we had ancient DNA, it became clear that no population in Europe today is of 100% unmixed WHG (western hunter-gatherer) origin. The Basques are stronger than average in the EEF (early European farmer) signature, and lower than average in ANE (Ancestral Northern European). This makes sense since ANE is correlated with Indo-European speakers.

Here is a snippet from a discussion on the DNA.LAND thread where I was mostly talking about Baltic/Slavic/South Slavic/Rest of Europe type stuff that I wrote:
"They think the arrival of Proto-Indo European speakers from the steppe radically changed languages across Europe, replacing almost all of the original languages (every from India to Ireland!), except perhaps for Basque and also radically changing the cultural in many areas (although much less so in the Baltic region than in the Slavic/Balkan regions and even less than in most of the rest of Western Europe other than for Basque area) but maybe didn't change the autosomal genes too much. They probably changed Y DNA somewhat though. (Interestingly while the Basque people almost uniquely seem to have fought off and resisted the Proto-Indo European rulers and language they don't seem to have a particularly large amount of ancient European hunter-gatherer (which seems to peak in the Baltics at the current time) and appear to have had tons of autosomal replacement from when farming spread out of the Fertile Crescent.)"

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-23-2016, 07:48 AM
I was doing a bit of browsing on the history of the Suebians in Spain and found this quite interesting, particularly the reference to the migration of some " Romano Britons" to Galicia during the period of the Saxon migration. Why did they choose Galicia I wonder, as I've also seen the Swabians mentioned in the context of Saxon migration?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwin0qiai4nOAhWLAsAKHan5AJoQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKingdo m_of_the_Suebi&usg=AFQjCNE2OaTLNcwc-nX3b1Ie_jTexSep0A

Jean M
07-23-2016, 10:23 AM
I was doing a bit of browsing on the history of the Suebians in Spain and found this quite interesting, particularly the reference to the migration of some " Romano Britons" to Galicia during the period of the Saxon migration. Why did they choose Galicia I wonder, as I've also seen the Swabians mentioned in the context of Saxon migration?

Galicia was relatively easy to reach by sea, either direct from western Britain, or from Brittany. The ships of traders would be sailing these routes anyway, and could take passengers. Trade along these sea-lanes had been going on for millennia. It may have planted the Celtic language in Galicia long before. In any case, Galicia retained many cultural elements that would be comfortingly familiar to Romano-British Christians. The Church had survived the ingression of the pagan Suebi, who turned Christian themselves before the arrval of the Romano-British exiles. Although Celtic had probably died out, a Romance language derived from Latin was spoken.

The Suebi are not noted as part of the Anglo-Saxon migration or as allies of the Anglo-Saxons. There were few places left in western Europe by c. 600 AD that were not controlled by Germani of some description, so to avoid Germani altogether, the best bet would be to stay in what is now Wales or Scotland, or move to Ireland, Sardinia or Sicily. However the rule of the Franks, Suebi, Visigoths, Lombards, etc in Continental Europe had not disrupted the Late Roman sytem in the way that the Anglo-Saxons did.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-23-2016, 12:29 PM
Galicia was relatively easy to reach by sea, either direct from western Britain, or from Brittany. The ships of traders would be sailing these routes anyway, and could take passengers. Trade along these sea-lanes had been going on for millennia. It may have planted the Celtic language in Galicia long before. In any case, Galicia retained many cultural elements that would be comfortingly familiar to Romano-British Christians. The Church had survived the ingression of the pagan Suebi, who turned Christian themselves before the arrval of the Romano-British exiles. Although Celtic had probably died out, a Romance language derived from Latin was spoken.

The Suebi are not noted as part of the Anglo-Saxon migration or as allies of the Anglo-Saxons. There were few places left in western Europe by c. 600 AD that were not controlled by Germani of some description, so to avoid Germani altogether, the best bet would be to stay in what is now Wales or Scotland, or move to Ireland, Sardinia or Sicily. However the rule of the Franks, Suebi, Visigoths, Lombards, etc in Continental Europe had not disrupted the Late Roman sytem in the way that the Anglo-Saxons did.

Thank you Jean, very informative (I'm trying to learn :) ) .
Someone on the U106 project group speculated that in relation to distribution of Z326, which I have an interest in, that elements of the Suebi which didn't migrate may have been "absorbed" by Anglo Saxons and entered Britain as part of their migration, but that is just speculation I guess. I hoping that Dr. Ian Mc Donald will say a little more about Z326 later this year, based on his data analysis, but he does emphasise that this is also speculative and only the basis for further research.

Dimanto
08-22-2016, 11:20 PM
Very good point, CelticGerman, that those from Marseilles are VERY different from those from Hamburg.

The future for 23andme is to simply code each European country by province or county. I mean, with our powerful computers and such, how hard can it be to look for patterns and augment the variables. True, there would be low sample size for many counties, and there are so many Americans who may not know from which precise region their ancestors hailed.

But lumping Southern French (Greeklike, certainly Italianlike) with Northern Germans (Anglo-like) is silly. And then not being able to even predict that a Hessian is a German is even sillier and is one place where they could improve.

It is still all amazing though, if you think about it. A great product overall.

These are the GEDmatch results of someone from the region of Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur:

Eurogenes k13 Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.35
2 West_Med 24.45
3 Baltic 18.06
4 East_Med 9.1
5 West_Asian 5.34
6 Red_Sea 3.38
7 Oceanian 0.25
8 Northeast_African 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 5.56
2 Spanish_Galicia 7.15
3 Spanish_Cataluna 7.23
4 Portuguese 7.95
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 8.11
6 Southwest_French 8.27
7 Spanish_Cantabria 8.4
8 Spanish_Extremadura 9.19
9 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.54
10 Spanish_Valencia 9.58
11 Spanish_Murcia 9.83
12 South_Dutch 10.18
13 West_German 10.56
14 Spanish_Andalucia 10.89
15 Spanish_Aragon 11.56
16 North_Italian 12.56
17 Austrian 14.11
18 Southeast_English 15.09
19 Southwest_English 15.49
20 East_German 15.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.4% Serbian + 45.6% French_Basque @ 2.22
2 63.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 36.7% Austrian @ 2.27
3 66.5% North_German + 33.5% Sardinian @ 2.51
4 77.6% South_Dutch + 22.4% Sardinian @ 2.51
5 63% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 37% East_German @ 2.52
6 60.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 39.8% Austrian @ 2.58
7 68.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 31.6% Hungarian @ 2.64
8 70.1% Spanish_Aragon + 29.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.72
9 75.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 24.1% Polish @ 2.73
10 66.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 33.7% East_German @ 2.74
11 74.3% Spanish_Aragon + 25.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.77
12 77.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 22.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.79
13 80.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 19.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.81
14 65.7% North_Dutch + 34.3% Sardinian @ 2.82
15 73.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 26.1% South_Polish @ 2.84
16 55.2% Spanish_Aragon + 44.8% Austrian @ 2.86
17 76.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.9
18 74.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 25.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.91
19 76.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.4% South_Polish @ 2.92
20 80.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 19.7% Lithuanian @ 2.92

These results are from a Frenchman from Lyon (Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes) and surroundings:

Eurogenes k13 Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 40.4
2 West_Med 21.01
3 Baltic 16.93
4 East_Med 14.69
5 West_Asian 6.01
6 Amerindian 0.8
7 Siberian 0.12
8 Oceanian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 5.36
2 Spanish_Cataluna 7.09
3 Portuguese 8.25
4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 8.92
5 Spanish_Valencia 9.17
6 Spanish_Galicia 9.19
7 Spanish_Murcia 9.45
8 West_German 9.57
9 Spanish_Extremadura 9.93
10 South_Dutch 10.03
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.64
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.74
13 North_Italian 11.01
14 Spanish_Andalucia 11.19
15 Southwest_French 11.38
16 Spanish_Aragon 12.57
17 Austrian 14.41
18 Southeast_English 14.81
19 Serbian 15.99
20 Southwest_English 16.08

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.6% North_Italian + 42.4% Southeast_English @ 2.25
2 61.6% North_Italian + 38.4% Orcadian @ 2.67
3 63.2% North_Italian + 36.8% West_Scottish @ 2.82
4 63% North_Italian + 37% Irish @ 2.92
5 59.8% North_Italian + 40.2% Southwest_English @ 2.94
6 62.7% North_Italian + 37.3% North_Dutch @ 2.96
7 62.8% North_Italian + 37.2% Danish @ 3.01
8 65.6% North_Italian + 34.4% Norwegian @ 3.05
9 52.6% South_Dutch + 47.4% North_Italian @ 3.19
10 52.7% Southeast_English + 47.3% Tuscan @ 3.25
11 53.9% West_German + 46.1% North_Italian @ 3.4
12 50.6% Southwest_English + 49.4% Tuscan @ 3.45
13 71.9% French + 28.1% North_Italian @ 3.46
14 73.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 26.8% Hungarian @ 3.57
15 51.2% Spanish_Valencia + 48.8% West_German @ 3.59
16 80.2% French + 19.8% Tuscan @ 3.61
17 61.9% North_Italian + 38.1% North_German @ 3.75
18 88.1% French + 11.9% South_Italian @ 3.76
19 85.8% French + 14.2% West_Sicilian @ 3.79
20 62.5% Spanish_Valencia + 37.5% Austrian @ 3.8

Still not really close to Northern Italian IMO + they are both more or less similar.

Dimanto
08-22-2016, 11:36 PM
it amazes me how Greek sits between tuscan and south-italian

There are different Greek groups from which those from most islands (especially those in the Eastern part of the Med) are plotting similar to Southern Italians; their GEDmatch results are also strikingly similar:

Eurogenes k13 for someone from Kalymnos (Dodekanesos):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.24
2 West_Med 18.93
3 West_Asian 18.77
4 North_Atlantic 14.19
5 Baltic 7.5
6 Red_Sea 4.31
7 South_Asian 1.82
8 Northeast_African 0.74
9 Siberian 0.33
10 East_Asian 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 5.77
2 Central_Greek 6.36
3 East_Sicilian 6.47
4 Ashkenazi 8.13
5 Sephardic_Jewish 9.09
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.42
7 Italian_Jewish 10.02
8 Algerian_Jewish 10.42
9 West_Sicilian 10.65
10 Cyprian 11.59
11 Tunisian_Jewish 12.26
12 Greek_Thessaly 12.78
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.15
14 Lebanese_Muslim 14.34
15 Turkish 15.1
16 Syrian 16.13
17 Tuscan 16.78
18 Lebanese_Druze 18.75
19 Samaritan 18.87
20 Lebanese_Christian 19.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.7% Central_Greek + 22.3% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.39
2 76.8% Central_Greek + 23.2% Assyrian @ 2.55
3 78% Central_Greek + 22% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.59
4 65.2% West_Sicilian + 34.8% Assyrian @ 2.65
5 76.7% East_Sicilian + 23.3% Assyrian @ 2.77
6 76.7% Cyprian + 23.3% West_German @ 2.84
7 83.1% South_Italian + 16.9% Kurdish @ 2.84
8 83.6% South_Italian + 16.4% Iranian @ 2.85
9 78.7% East_Sicilian + 21.3% Armenian @ 2.86
10 80.3% South_Italian + 19.7% Azeri @ 2.86
11 76.6% Central_Greek + 23.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.89
12 80.3% Cyprian + 19.7% Danish @ 2.89
13 53.8% Tuscan + 46.2% Assyrian @ 2.9
14 67.3% West_Sicilian + 32.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.9
15 79.6% Cyprian + 20.4% North_German @ 2.93
16 71.4% Central_Greek + 28.6% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.96
17 80.5% Cyprian + 19.5% Orcadian @ 2.96
18 80.7% Cyprian + 19.3% Irish @ 2.96
19 77.4% Cyprian + 22.6% South_Dutch @ 2.97
20 81% South_Italian + 19% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.98

CrazyDaisy
08-30-2016, 01:37 AM
I just got my dad's results. No German showed up despite him being 1/8th German and looking kind of German.

AnnieD
08-30-2016, 05:11 AM
I just got my dad's results. No German showed up despite him being 1/8th German and looking kind of German.

My British/Irish & French/German AC at 23andMe just changed slightly apparently upon migration to "TNE" (The New Experience). So give it time. You may gain or lose a few twigs in your family tree as 23andMe works out the kinks in their new system. ;)

Dorkymon
08-30-2016, 08:27 PM
BTW not all Germans are blonde and blue eyed.

I'd actually go and say that the plurality of Germans are not blonde and blue eyed. It is well known that more Germans from the North of the country emigrated to the US than from the South.

Ski
12-17-2016, 03:18 AM
Just to throw my two cents in, I was given 4.9% French/German in Speculative. The only known German that I may or may not have comes from my male line, where my surname has documented Ostsiedlung links to Poland-Pomerania-Kashubia. It's possible that this is blurred in 23andme due to the considerable admixture of Poles, Czechs, Wends, Masurians, Kashubians, etc and Germans over the past 1000 years. This mixture, especially given the fact that the borders in Central Europe have been redrawn four or five times over the past 100 years alone, may help explain why so many known German families are seeing East European (not necessarily EE but West Slav DNA) and EE families are seeing French/German in their results.

Ron from PA
03-13-2017, 12:39 PM
I get 48.8%. I estimate i'm close to 70% Germanic. Have 28.8% broadly NW Euro as well. It's colonial PA Dutch. Therefore is from the SW West of present Germany. Totally different area, then the Germans who came in the 1800's for the most part.

Pratt
03-14-2017, 02:30 AM
Yeah, I dont get why German and French are labeled in the same way

A Norfolk L-M20
03-14-2017, 10:25 AM
English only known ancestry over the past two or three centuries. English family history. 250 direct ancestors - all SE England.

Before any phasing, in spec mode:

27% French & German
29% Broadly NW European

After phasing with a parent:

22% French & German
32% Broadly NW European.

I put it down to my East Anglian ancestry (77-85% recorded - 39% on Living DNA), as a result of heavy Anglo Saxon and Anglo Danish heritage, and maybe subsequent admixture between SE Britain and the nearby Continent, including Norman Medieval, and Dutch emigration, combined perhaps with a little luck of the random genetic recombination.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-14-2017, 10:48 AM
Galicia was relatively easy to reach by sea, either direct from western Britain, or from Brittany. The ships of traders would be sailing these routes anyway, and could take passengers. Trade along these sea-lanes had been going on for millennia. It may have planted the Celtic language in Galicia long before. In any case, Galicia retained many cultural elements that would be comfortingly familiar to Romano-British Christians. The Church had survived the ingression of the pagan Suebi, who turned Christian themselves before the arrval of the Romano-British exiles. Although Celtic had probably died out, a Romance language derived from Latin was spoken.

The Suebi are not noted as part of the Anglo-Saxon migration or as allies of the Anglo-Saxons. There were few places left in western Europe by c. 600 AD that were not controlled by Germani of some description, so to avoid Germani altogether, the best bet would be to stay in what is now Wales or Scotland, or move to Ireland, Sardinia or Sicily. However the rule of the Franks, Suebi, Visigoths, Lombards, etc in Continental Europe had not disrupted the Late Roman sytem in the way that the Anglo-Saxons did.

Although I do realise that place-name evidence like this is weak to say the least, a small market town in Norfolk has the name Swaffham, which has been accredited to the settlement of the Suevvi. I'm sure it is a misinterpretation, but I quite like the idea.

Tomenable
03-24-2017, 07:05 PM
Prussian (mostly) German results:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9919-Prussian-German-results&p=218693&viewfull=1#post218693

I would like to see her DNA Land:

16 g-g-grandparents:

West Prussia - 5 (Steinbach, Liebenau, Kopiske, Hedke, Lück)
Pomerania - 4 (Zimmermann, Voss, Hasse, Hass)
Provinz Posen - 3 (Eichstädt, Neumann, Schulz)
East Prussia - 2 (Scheffler, Gnoss)
Sachsen - 1 (Schmeisser)
Thüringen - 1 (Feustel)

And Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 40.43
2 North_Atlantic 37.01
3 West_Med 12.1
4 West_Asian 4.1
5 East_Med 3.24
6 Red_Sea 1.43
7 Northeast_African 0.63
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 South_Asian 0.43
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Polish 6.86
2 Polish 7.61
3 Southwest_Finnish 8.08
4 East_German 8.42
5 Ukrainian 9.22
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.24
7 North_Swedish 9.5
8 Austrian 10.9
9 Hungarian 11.08
10 Russian_Smolensk 11.11
11 Belorussian 11.32
12 Croatian 11.49
13 Estonian_Polish 11.6
14 Estonian 11.88
15 Finnish 12.26
16 Southwest_Russian 12.63
17 Ukrainian_Belgorod 13.04
18 Swedish 13.46
19 Lithuanian 14.72
20 North_German 14.93

climkadiddler
03-27-2017, 01:53 AM
I have browsed forums like this for a while and I have NEVER seen the 23andMe results of an actual German person. Come to think it, I don't know if I've seen many German posters at all. Maybe, for historical reasons, population genetics are not really their forte.

Baltimore1937
03-27-2017, 10:59 AM
I have browsed forums like this for a while and I have NEVER seen the 23andMe results of an actual German person. Come to think it, I don't know if I've seen many German posters at all. Maybe, for historical reasons, population genetics are not really their forte.

I saw somewhere that it's against the law in Germany to do casual genetic testing. They're probably afraid of family and social chaos if they reveal all the NPEs over there.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-27-2017, 01:56 PM
I saw somewhere that it's against the law in Germany to do casual genetic testing. They're probably afraid of family and social chaos if they reveal all the NPEs over there.

http://www.genealogyintime.com/NewsStories/2009/May/germany_bans_genetic_genealogy_tests.html

wombatofthenorth
03-29-2017, 01:16 AM
http://www.genealogyintime.com/NewsStories/2009/May/germany_bans_genetic_genealogy_tests.html

ugh, really a shame

and personally, makes it a lot trickier to try to begin to figure out my German bits and maybe even Y haplo tracing with STRs

CelticGerman
03-29-2017, 05:19 AM
I have browsed forums like this for a while and I have NEVER seen the 23andMe results of an actual German person. Come to think it, I don't know if I've seen many German posters at all. Maybe, for historical reasons, population genetics are not really their forte.

I'm German and did many genetic testing. There is no problem to do so.

Calas
04-02-2017, 09:29 PM
English only known ancestry over the past two or three centuries. English family history. 250 direct ancestors - all SE England.

Before any phasing, in spec mode:

27% French & German
29% Broadly NW European

After phasing with a parent:

22% French & German
32% Broadly NW European.

I put it down to my East Anglian ancestry (77-85% recorded - 39% on Living DNA), as a result of heavy Anglo Saxon and Anglo Danish heritage, and maybe subsequent admixture between SE Britain and the nearby Continent, including Norman Medieval, and Dutch emigration, combined perhaps with a little luck of the random genetic recombination.


I know someone who is 1/4 German, 1/2 French and 1/4 Irish/English. Her French&German per 23&me is meager 11.5%. So I wonder how many of the "German" and "French" samples on 23&me are legitimately from the countries in question and not just Americans of assumed ancestry giving their DNA.




I get 48.8%. I estimate i'm close to 70% Germanic. Have 28.8% broadly NW Euro as well. It's colonial PA Dutch. Therefore is from the SW West of present Germany. Totally different area, then the Germans who came in the 1800's for the most part.

Interesting. How well researched is your tree?

Because I am highly entertained, after all, by how an American friend who is 1/2 Pennsylvania "Dutch" & 1/2 British/UK of the same old American ancestry [from the 1600s & both sides well researched] has overwhelming "British" American relatives on 23&me/gedmatch but finding Germanic relatives [who were widely stationary, very predominant family, and stayed within the Germanic circle (Austrians, Dutch, etc.) while avoiding others (English, French, etc.) like the plague as marriage partners] is almost like looking for flying cows if we used surnames alone.

Calas
04-02-2017, 09:57 PM
I saw somewhere that it's against the law in Germany to do casual genetic testing. They're probably afraid of family and social chaos if they reveal all the NPEs over there.

As A Norfolk linked the law appears to be more against unethical behavior than anything. That'd include paternity tests without consent - pretty standard across the board. This would also include some potential employers who'd have no problem from their point of view using your non-Germanic ancestry to tell you bye-bye now, please make sure the door hits you on the way out. However, as with other countries handicapped by lack of shipping or regulations, if the interest is there then there are ways around it.

Regarding the NPEs. I am sure some Brits and Europeans, when faced with the overwhelming colonist/American clientele base of many genetic sites, may be led to believe that these individuals only know a handful of relatives and the rest of the family tree is 70 to 90% NPEs.


There's also the difference in mentality than someone such as yourself as American [no offense]. Such colonists want to find out where you come from if paper-trails are a dead end.

On the other hand, some European countries have very good genealogical records. There'll likewise be lack of interest if someone comes from a family that really has not moved or if you belong to a religion, ethnicity or culture that means you're in a way limited to whom exactly you are marrying in the Old Country. One also has to take into consideration if there's other things [like paying bills] why waste money on finding "long lost" cousins you'd likely never entertain the concept of contacting. The same even applies to the UK and older families who have good trees & remained widely stationary > why bother with what is perceived as a waste of money. I personally wouldn't have done any genetic testing if not for the simple fact I was curious how genetic testing [not impressed, most unknown "relatives" are too distant to be worthwhile] would hold up against a thoroughly researched tree. My husband as a European, due to the good records in the Scandinavian areas, had absolutely no interest until I twisted his arm a bit.

But aside from CelticGerman on the forums here I know two Germans from Hesse & one from North Rhine-Westphalia who have done genetic testing but, on the other hand, a German friend from Brandenburg may have asked me was I suffering from some fever when I mentioned genetic testing over a discussion on FB.

sktibo
04-09-2017, 10:48 PM
I saw an eupedia map showing that Broadly NW European peaks in Germany​ and the Netherlands, so I ask you German folk, what was your broadly NW European score? I suspect a lot of German people may show up as predominantly broadly NW Europe and then F&G. ?

Tomenable
01-13-2018, 02:42 AM
Possible answer, kidnapping of foreign children by Nazi Germany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi_Germany


Kidnapping of foreign children by Nazi Germany (Polish: Rabunek dzieci), part of the Generalplan Ost (GPO), involved taking children regarded as "Aryan-looking" from the rest of Europe and moving them to Nazi Germany for the purpose of Germanization, or indoctrination into becoming culturally German.

At more than 200,000 victims, occupied Poland had the largest proportion of children taken.[2][5] An estimated 400,000 children were abducted throughout Europe.[1]

Jean M
01-21-2018, 09:20 AM
The Suebi are not noted as part of the Anglo-Saxon migration or as allies of the Anglo-Saxons.


Thank you Jean, very informative (I'm trying to learn :) ) .
Someone on the U106 project group speculated that in relation to distribution of Z326, which I have an interest in, that elements of the Suebi which didn't migrate may have been "absorbed" by Anglo Saxons and entered Britain as part of their migration, but that is just speculation I guess. ..

I must correct myself. When Tacitus was writing his Germania, he noted that the Suebi occupied more than half of Germania, and were divided into tribes, each with its own name, but all alike called Suebi. They could be recognised by their habit of combing their hair sideways and fastening it tight with a knot. Tacitus appears to class the Anglii (Angles) among the Suebi. Startling support for this comes from an Iron Age skull preserved in a bog, whose hair survives complete with its Suebian knot. It was found at Osterby, which lies within Angeln.

Jean M
01-21-2018, 09:24 AM
Although I do realise that place-name evidence like this is weak to say the least, a small market town in Norfolk has the name Swaffham, which has been accredited to the settlement of the Suevvi.

That is indeed what Mills, English Place-Names, has to say.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-21-2018, 09:37 AM
I must correct myself. When Tacitus was writing his Germania, he noted that the Suebi occupied more than half of Germania, and were divided into tribes, each with its own name, but all alike called Suebi. They could be recognised by their habit of combing their hair sideways and fastening it tight with a knot. Tacitus appears to class the Anglii (Angles) among the Suebi. Startling support for this comes from an Iron Age skull preserved in a bog, whose hair survives complete with its Suebian knot. It was found at Osterby, which lies within Angeln.

Thank you Jean - have you noticed my Avatar? :)

20948



Actually my own paternal line may have a Norwegian connection - test result and TMRCA awaited so I may have to change my avatar. (maybe) :)

Jean M
01-22-2018, 03:35 PM
Thank you Jean - have you noticed my Avatar? :)

Yes I did - some time ago - and wondered why you chose to be Suebi. Now I get it. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2018, 04:40 PM
Yes I did - some time ago - and wondered why you chose to be Suebi. Now I get it. :)

As Z326 seems to be so widely dispersed I thought it was the best bet at the time, Longobards etc. now I'm not so sure. :)
Thanks for coming back with the information.