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Tomenable
08-26-2015, 05:11 PM
Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden were Finnic-speaking people. According to this German-made ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living even in southern and central Sweden at that time:

http://historum.com/european-history/55252-kingdom-kvenland.html#post2262773?postcount=9

German-made map in question, published in year 1847:

Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/

http://s9.postimg.org/oxkt9pda5/Kvens_B.png

^ Huge inland areas shown as Kvenish majority + "Schwedische Ansiedlung" (Swedish colonisation).

====================================

The oldest sample of N1c so far, is from Russian-Belarusian borderland and dates back to the mid-3rd millennium BC: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31502-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)?p=464726&viewfull=1#post464726


2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

(...)

Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon (and was later influenced by Corded Ware / Globular Amphora people):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture


Unfortunately there is no detailed info on what subclade that could be.

But if that was L550 then it will mean that L550 emerged in Zhizhitskaya culture, because it is not older than it.

Rurikid branch of N1c is one of sub-branches of L550. Here a nice tree:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

And here age estimates:

According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 ybp respectively.

N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 ybp +/- a few centuries).

If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

===========================

Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area (map) in the 3rd millennium BC:

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png

That N1c sample in question (from the 3rd millennium BC) was found near Serteya (^ map above).

Shaikorth
08-26-2015, 05:31 PM
Too bad the Russian scientists didn't release the sample to public or (AFAIK) send it to western labs. Based on what we now know, chances are Zhizhitskaya N1c1 is not L550, quite likely not even VL29. The ages of those subclades based on next gen sequencing are on the tree you linked, and they seem too young. CTS10760+ is ancestral to VL29, which includes L550, and estimated 3500 years old. It was found in Pinega, eastern Archangelsk Oblast.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 06:12 PM
Thanks Shaikorth.

The main question though, is whether the Rurikid branch was Kvenish. As we can see those Kvens lived between Swedes and Norwegians, extending even as late as 1847 almost as far south as Skagerrak and Kattegat, while in the east reaching the coasts of the Gulf of Bothnia - if we believe that German map.

Shaikorth
08-26-2015, 06:56 PM
That's going to be a hard case to solve without ancient DNA (the same old song). There may be a discontinuity between the people of ancient Kvenland (who may be a candidate for spreading L550 in Scandinavia) and Kvens of post-medieval period to which that map refers to. The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kven_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland

edit. whatever the Kven case, L550 still clearly came to Scandinavia from the east so modern DNA may help a bit.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

Big-Y has found (seemingly) the most basal L550* from Finland, Scotland and Norway. No branches have been formed for them yet, but STR-wise the Norwegians and the Scot are relatively close to each other so their connection is more recent (as expected) but the Finn is not, which implies that connection is much older than Viking period.
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1949

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 07:17 PM
The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.

This information is from wikipedia and it is most certainly false.

There was continuous presence of Kvens, even if some new immigrants also came.

Kvens are attested in Medieval sources as well - they were not just Ancient people but also Medieval.

https://sites.google.com/site/archoevidence/_/rsrc/1382910284604/varangian-dna/Roslagen.jpg

According to "Leišarvķsir og borgarskipan", written in year 1157 AD:


It contains two descriptions of lands around Norway that the authors seems to have acquired for his book from independent sources:

"Götaland (Gautland) is east of the River Göta (Gautelfi), and closest to it is Sweden (Svķžjóš), then closest is Hälsingland (Helsingaland), then Finland (Finnland); then come the borders of Russia (Garšarķki), which we mentioned earlier. But on the other side of Götaland is Denmark."

"Closest to Denmark is little Sweden (Svķžjóš), there is Öland (Eyland); then is Gotland (Gotland); then Hälsingland (Helsingaland); then Värmland (Vermaland); then two Kvenlands (Kvenlönd), and they extend to north of Bjarmia (Bjarmalandi)."

The first description lists Finland, but not Kvenland. The second one mentions "two Kvenlands", but not Finland. It has been presumed, that by "two Kvenlands" here the abbot probably referred to Kvenland and Finland, as the two were both inhabited by culturally quite similar type of Finnic peoples (in addition to the Uralic Sami) that in other Islandic sources are sometimes said to have been ruled by the same kings.

Such an excerpt from an article written by M. Sjostrom (e-mail: [email protected]):


A current DNA research project by Dr. Andrzej Bajor of Poland, under the auspices of the Family Tree DNA Rurikid Dynasty Project, seeks to more accurately place Rurik within the light of history and out of the shadows of legend, while simultaneously trying to map his modern descendants. The DNA results of modern Rurikid princes indicate that Rurik was probably of Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1C1, formerly designated N3a1). Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group typical for Finno-Ugrian people, while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernihiv (Olgoviches) are of R1a group typical for Slavic peoples. According to the Russian Newsweek magazine it indicates that the official genealogy is probably incorrect probably because of a non-paternity event [adultery, adoption, etc. - JW] in the Chernihiv branch.

The project of Bajor has thus far tested twelve such genealogy-traced Rurikid descendants, from widely varying branches (two Gagarins, a Khilkov, Vadbolsky, Puzyna, Kropotkin, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Shakhovskoy, Myshetsky, Solomin, Rzhevsky, Putyatin), whose Y DNA shows they belong to the same N1C1 agnatic lineage. This weight of numbers is a strong support for the Finno-Ugric genetic origin of Rurikids.

Rurik, being genetically of a Finnic patriline, had an agnatic forefather in the distant past, a 'Y-chromosomal Tshuudi'.

According to Dr Bajor, the Rurikids' genetic haplo (N1c1) can be explained as Finnic genetical substrate in a north-germanic population living in eastern coastal Sweden, a bit like professor Kalevi Wiik has theorized the Germanic language to have developed in such places: the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden, where Rurik was supposed to have been born), was inhabited mainly by a Finnic population until approximately the middle of the first millennium CE. The Norse and Goths came also to live in this region and were mixed with the native Finns, their germanic language taking over. However, Finnic (aka Tshuudi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud)) genes survived in some of patrilines, as Rurik's patriline is Finnic, although already his name shows [?] his family were speakers of Germanic language [this is doubtful].

Rurik and his progeny came to rule over northern territories where only a portion of the genome are similar with other Indo-Europeans - and (to the point in this) much of the genome are similar with Finnic tshuudi. Finnic-Ugric tribes had been some inhabitants in vast regions in northern and western Russia, and there were plenty of their remnants in genome. The Finnic portion is a genetical substrate in the Slavic Indo-European population of western and northern Russia, a bit like professor Kalevi Wiik has theorized the Slavic language to have developed in such places. The land was inhabited mainly by a Finnic population BCE, until Indo-European language came also to this region and was adopted by many of native Finnic (aka tshuudi) population, forming ultimately the Indo-European Russian language. However, Finnic genes survived in many of the patrilines. The Russian population was thusly formed in part of descendants of Finnic inhabitants of the areas, and in part of descendants of Slavic Indo-Europeans.

Description of Europe from Othere's voyage also mentions Kvens.

To the east of the land of Norwegians, in the mountains, lived Finns.

And on the other side of those mountains, Othere's account places:

1) Swedes in the south
2) to the north of Swedes - Kvens
3) north of Halogaland (where Othere lived) - wilderness with no people

He also wrote that Kvens sometimes invaded the place where he lived across the mountains, and that Norwegians also sometimes invaded Kvens. Kvens made use of mountain lakes & rivers to cross the mountains and invade Norwegians, sailing in their boats across those lakes.

So here is how those Kvenish raids described by Othere could look like:

http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mythology/ohthere/ow.html

http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mythology/ohthere/othere.jpg

And here areas further south:

http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mythology/ohthere/wulfstan.jpg

Adam von Bremen mentioned Kvens and called them a "powerful nation" who lived along the Gulf of Bothnia.

According to Adam, they defeated the Swedish army and killed Onundr son of King Emundr (AvB, IV. 19).

Check also these wikipedia articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kvenland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkarls

Toponym "Finnveden" probably marks the southernmost extent of Finnic Kvens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnveden

There are at least 1961 place names in Sweden beginning with Finn-. And there are 892 names starting with Dan-. And 44 England. 12 Tyskland. Etc. Some of the 1961 names with Finn- are ancient. Others may be connected with recent immigration, like Finnskogen in Norway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnskogen

But Finnveden is surely an ancient toponym, because it was mentioned already by Jordanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes):


Finnveden or Finnheden is one of the ancient small lands of Småland. (...) It was first mentioned by Jordanes when he referred to its population as the Finnaithae (derived from an old form of Finnheden, Finn(h)aith-) when describing the nations of Scandza in Getica.

Etymology:

The Scandinavian placenames Finnveden, Finnmark and the province of Finland (which gave name to Finland) are all thought to derive from Finn, an ancient Germanic word for the Finnic people inhabiting areas of Fenno-Scandia and Scandinavia. The connection between the names Finnveden, Finnmark and Finland is not entirely clear. However, it is known that in addition to the Uralic Sami people, the Finnic tribe of Kvens have historically inhabited areas of Scandinavia which today are part of Norway and Sweden. According to Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku,[1] in the area of Tromsa, Norway, alone there are 12 prehistoric Kven place names.

Roslagen archipelago (Väddö island and similar islands opposite the Roslagen coast) was inhabited by Finnic-speaking people in the Early Middle Ages. They became Swedicized later.

As for the name "Rurik":

There is no such name in Germanic languages. This is why proponents of the Germanic origin of Rurik claimed, that his real name was Rorik and that it was distorted into Rurik by the Primary Chronicle.

However, there is a Finnic name Ruurikki, which is in use even today.

So Rurik could be a Kvenish or a Finnic name in fact. Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - claimed so.

Other variants of name Ruurikki include(d) also Ruuri and Ruurikko.

parastais
08-26-2015, 07:33 PM
In general there are few things that might speak in favor of expansion from Finland after 536 AD events in Baltics.

http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeology/2014/issue_1/arch-2014-1-30-56.pdf

"Thus, one can observe a sudden population loss in the 6th century in a zone in northern Europe that encompassed at least Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Gotland, ÷land, southern Sweden as far as Lake M‰laren, southern Norway, Denmark, as well as Schleswig-Holstein and northern Frisia in Germany" (page 40)

But
"As mentioned above, there is no decrease of the number of burials in the 6th century southern Finland, nevertheless a sudden and profound change in
The impact of the climate catastrophe of 536ń537 AD material culture took place also there (Lehtosalo-Hilander 1984, 285). The Finnish Merovingian period (550ń800) has been characterized, drawing upon archaeological findings, by an outbreak and blossoming of local culture during which former artefacts of Scandinavian and Baltic example are replaced by highly unique weapons and jewellery with no counterparts in neighbouring areas (cf.Salmo 1938; Salo 2012a, 96). " (page 44/45).

"The famine of 536ń537 might have broken this trade network, because the Svear and Vironians had either died of starvation or they simply had no grain or
beer to offer in exchange for furs. It is impossible to specify how the Finnish fur traders managed to trade their goods, but it seems that after misfortune had struck
their middlemen, they had to find new markets. Whether the inhabitants of Finnish coastal areas travelled with their goods to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea or
Germanic traders arrived themselves is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that the ancestors of Finns developed first-hand contacts with the territories of modern
northern Germany, and new but probably indirect trade bonds with territories of modern Ukraine and Permic area" (page 46).

and so on...

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 07:35 PM
The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.

There was indeed such immigration - but those were fishermen moving only along the coast.

While the map that I posted, shows Kvenish-majority territory deep inland, far from the coast.

So they were not recent immigrants but remnants of ancient Kvens.

parastais
08-26-2015, 07:40 PM
However, there is a Finnic name Ruurikki, which is in use even today.

So Rurik could be a Kvenish or a Finnic name in fact. Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - claimed so.

Other variants of name Ruurikki include(d) also Ruuri and Ruurikko.

Ruurikki - Finnish form of Rurik
Rurik - Nordic spelling of Рюрик (Ryurik), a Russian form of Rųrik
Rųrik - Old Danish and Old Swedish form of HrųrķkR
HrųrķkR - Old Norse name, Combination of HROD and RIK (fame + ruler; Norse for Vladislav :) )

I think they were Kwenish/Finnish guys (originally) but they used lingua franca of their time and place, which was Old Norse.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 08:00 PM
OK but how do we determine whose name that was "originally" ???

Was it originally Germanic, originally Finnic? Or maybe accidental similarity or cognates?

For example there is also this case of Slavic Vladimir / Norse Valdemar. I have seen two theories:

1) That Valdemar was derived from Vladimir.
2) Both developed independently (cognates).

Sources supporting theory 1) are for example the following ones:

First "ever" Valdemar was Valdemar I (1131-1182), who was named after his great-grandfather, Vladimir II (1053-1125). And all later Valdemars born after that, were named after that Valdemar I:

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar

"Valdemar er et dansk drengenavn, der stammer fra det russiske Vladimir."

http://www.historisktidsskrift.dk/summary/92_262.html

"Valdemar was named after his great-grandfather, Vladimir Monomakh. According to the Knytlinga Saga Valdemar was not only born at his Russian grandfather's court but also spent his childhood in Russia, possibly with his uncle in Novgorod. "

Diminutive or poetic form of Valdemar became Volmer:

http://www.kalliope.org/en/dict.cgi?wid=Volmer

"Volmer: anden (poetisk) form for navnet Valdemar."

http://www.ragnarok-ultimate.dk/kongvolmer/

"Kong Volmer was the nickname of one of the great Danish kings of the middle ages. Kong Volmers real name was Valdemar Atterdag (1320-1375)."

As for theory 2), that they are cognates:


it is more likely to be a cognate, since the two elements of the name, "vald-" and "mar" are perfectly good Germanic roots:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Waldemar

Etymology[edit]

Old High German waltan (“power”) + māri (“famous”); a cognate of Slavonic Vladimir, merged with Scandinavian Valdemar.

The word "vald-" or "wald-". occurs in Scandinavian names that are in no way Slavic, eg Rognvald.

The root "wald-" also occurs in Old English, for example in the title "Bretwalda" = ruler of Britain, which was born by an English king who ruled over all the other kings, both English and British.

Finally, there is the modern German word "Verwaltung" = administration, which contains the root "wald-" or "vald-", in its High German form.

The Germanic "vald'" and the Slavonic "vlad-" or "volod-" are parallel forms derived from Proto-Indo-European, and neither is borrowed from the other.

In the same way as the Germanic "gard-" (eg English "yard") and Slavonic "grad-" or "gorod-" are parallel forms derived from a common ancestor (and cognate with Latin "hortus").

So linguists found an etymological explanation to claim that Valdemar is a cognate with Vladimir. But historical sources don't know any Valdemars before 1131, and they say that he was named after his grandfather. Etymological explanation is a modern theory invented to establish linguistic origins. By contrast Knytlinga Saga is a primary source, and it claims that Valdemar derived from Slavic name Vladimir.

Slavic etymology of Vladimir is as good as Germanic of Valdemar.

Both names have their meanings in respectively Slavic and Germanic languages. But... no Valdemar had ever lived before 1131, when Valdemar I (named after Vladimir II) was born. So historical evidence suggests that those were NOT cognates, but instead Vladimir gave rise to Valdemar.

In other words - they could be Indo-European cognates, but most likely weren't (not in this case).

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 08:16 PM
There is a similar confusion with name Atilla - whether it was Gothic or Hunnic.

About a recent (2015) publication about the name "Attila":

http://www.ejournals.eu/SEC/2015/Issue-3/art/4470/

"The present paper deals with Attila, the name of the famous king of the Huns. For a long while it has been considered Gothic, meaning ‘little father’. This paper will cast doubt upon this explanation and will suggest a Hunnic origin of Attila with the content ‘horseman’."


A recently published article casts doubt on the Germanic origin of the name Attila, "The Gothic origin of the name Attila is questionable. It is at least as likely to be of Hunnic origin." and points out that the word "atta" is a migratory term for "father/forefather" common in multiple languages including many Turkic languages. The article also indicates that Attila's name could have originated from Turkic/Mongolian word for horse - "at, adyy/agta", but also states that "Of course we do not know how the name sounded in the language of the Huns. Sometime, somewhere, somehow a proto-form like *agtala- changed to *attila. We cannot tell if the assimilation of gt to tt, and/or if loss of a final consonant took place in Hunnic or if these changes were part of the adaptation process into Latin, Gothic and Greek...Truly, our knowledge of the Hunnic language is almost zero. One can only guess a solution to this riddle of Attila's name..."

And the description of Attila as a person by Priscus of Panium:

http://www29.homepage.villanova.edu/christopher.haas/embassy.htm

"(...) He was short of stature with a broad chest, massive head, and small eyes. His beard was thin and sprinkled with grey, his nose flat, and his complexion swarthy, showing thus the signs of his origins. (...)"

The description doesn't portray him as a "stereotypical" Germanic person.

But Peter Heather claims that Attila is a Germanic name (though does not suggest that Atilla was of Germanic descent), read below:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=4MADmH2eaGIC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=A+last+piece+of+onomastic+evidence&source=bl&ots=Y2rcifRmpD&sig=vBVDfLpBFlCwTE6A0h1G9MSak2E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAWoVChMIjc-135STxwIVi4UsCh0OoQ82#v=onepage&q=A%20last%20piece%20of%20onomastic%20evidence&f=false

http://s21.postimg.org/vwlg5tu47/Attila_0.png

Here also user Authun explains why he could have a Germanic name:

http://historum.com/european-history/75626-attila.html#post1914390?postcount=5

However, Magnus Snaedal argues for a Hunnic linguistic origin:

http://s23.postimg.org/4yjrms9bv/Attila_1.png

http://s10.postimg.org/6ujdik8yh/Attila_2.png

http://s23.postimg.org/8iar9pid7/Attila_3.png

http://s10.postimg.org/55aaaht95/Attila_4.png

http://s21.postimg.org/yqjjm5pyv/Attila_5.png

http://s28.postimg.org/pm86kewt9/Attila_6.png

http://s28.postimg.org/7xgfssl25/Attila_7.png

lgmayka
08-26-2015, 08:30 PM
According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 ybp respectively.
Michał's "10-20% rule" would raise the "formed" estimates to 4730-5160 and 3850-4200 ybp.

George
08-26-2015, 08:43 PM
Ruurikki - Finnish form of Rurik
Rurik - Nordic spelling of Рюрик (Ryurik), a Russian form of Rųrik
Rųrik - Old Danish and Old Swedish form of HrųrķkR
HrųrķkR - Old Norse name, Combination of HROD and RIK (fame + ruler; Norse for Vladislav :) )

I think they were Kwenish/Finnish guys (originally) but they used lingua franca of their time and place, which was Old Norse.

A long time ago I read a piece which considered the PVL's "Tale of Rurik" to be a later concoction. One of the indicators being the rarity of the name among Rus princes and rulers (there was one only in the 11th c. from a side branch which had briefly been exiled to Germany in the 1050's, and another one in the 12th c. born around 1135), compared to Oleg and Igor. This piece suggested that the source was a story (perhaps in German?) about "Rurik" coming over to rule in Novgorod (by invitation-- P.S. Novgorod didn't exist then so the PVL changed this to "Ladoga" later) with "seine haus" "und tru vor" (I'm not sure of the exact spelling), but in the sense of "with his household and faithful knights", which became the trio "Ryurik" "Sineus" and "Truvor" of the Chronicle... Well we do know there was a significant Danish warlord called Rorik in the 9th c. who was active in the 860's and 870's (I believe he is mentioned a few times in the Carolingian Chronicles-- maybe the ANNALES BERTINIANI ---I'd have to check my notes). As late as the mid-11th c. in Ilarion's "Slovo", the founder of the Rus dynasty was considered to be Igor. No mention yet of Rurik... Frequently though, legend becomes history, and then hard line history:beerchug:

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 08:49 PM
George,

Whatever was the name of the founder of Rurikid dynasty, 68% of tested descendants of the dynasty (130 out of 191 tested modern descendants of the Rurikid dynasty) belong to N1c haplogroup. Vast majority of the remaining 32% members of the dynasty belong to R1a and I2, likely due to non-paternity events.*

So whether his name was Rurik or Igor, or whatever else, he was most likely of N1c haplogroup.

*For example Oleg I of Chernigov was considered to be adopted son - and this seems to be true.

parastais
08-26-2015, 08:50 PM
OK but how do we determine whose name that was "originally" ???

Was it originally Germanic, originally Finnic? Or maybe accidental similarity or cognates?
Does Ruurikki even mean anything in Finnish?

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 08:55 PM
Does Ruurikki even mean anything in Finnish?

According to Eero Kuussaari it does. He suggested some etymology. I don't remember now, though.

As for Rurikid haplogroups:

Apart from N1c (68% of descendants), there are also R1a L260, R1a Z92, R1a M458, R1a Z280 and I2a.

On the other hand, no of Rurikid descendants have R1a Z284, R1b U106 or I1, which is intriguing.

Haplogroup I2a was the lineage of Rurikid Princes of Turov and Pinsk.

But the majority (2/3) of Rurikids had N1c - which suggests that the original founder had it too.

parastais
08-26-2015, 08:59 PM
A long time ago I read a piece which considered the PVL's "Tale of Rurik" to be a later concoction. One of the indicators being the rarity of the name among Rus princes and rulers (there was one only in the 11th c. from a side branch which had briefly been exiled to Germany in the 1050's, and another one in the 12th c. born around 1135), compared to Oleg and Igor. This piece suggested that the source was a story (perhaps in German?) about "Rurik" coming over to rule in Novgorod (by invitation-- P.S. Novgorod didn't exist then so the PVL changed this to "Ladoga" later) with "seine haus" "und tru vor" (I'm not sure of the exact spelling), but in the sense of "with his household and faithful knights", which became the trio "Ryurik" "Sineus" and "Truvor" of the Chronicle... Well we do know there was a significant Danish warlord called Rorik in the 9th c. who was active in the 860's and 870's (I believe he is mentioned a few times in the Carolingian Chronicles-- maybe the ANNALES BERTINIANI ---I'd have to check my notes). As late as the mid-11th c. in Ilarion's "Slovo", the founder of the Rus dynasty was considered to be Igor. No mention yet of Rurik... Frequently though, legend becomes history, and then hard line history:beerchug:
Hrorik means famous chieftain Sine hus truvor or smth means with his war band. Could be he found a text in Norse of the origins of dynasty but could not understand properly :) So, it might be that Igor/Ingvar is the true founder of the dynasty. But his N1c and Norse name brings it to the shores of Roslagen or Alands anyway.

Although:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sineus_and_Truvor

George
08-26-2015, 09:00 PM
George,

Whatever was the name of the founder of Rurikid dynasty, 68% of tested descendants of the dynasty (130 out of 191 tested modern descendants of the Rurikid dynasty) belong to N1c haplogroup. Vast majority of the remaining 32% members of the dynasty belong to R1a and I2, likely due to non-paternity events.*

So whether his name was Rurik or Igor, or whatever else, he was most likely of N1c haplogroup.

*For example Oleg I of Chernigov was considered to be adopted son - and this seems to be true.

I have absolutely nothing against N1c, R1a, or I2a (even the M436's ;) Let's hope your original "Rurikid" N1c wasn't of the "non-parental event" variety :argue: Carry on! :beerchug:

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 09:03 PM
^ Surely Rurikid princesses weren't "faithful in bed", but lack of I1, U106 and Z284 suggests that they were like "Vanda who didn't want a German": http://cracow.travel/guide-to-krakow/legends/action,get,id,529,title,The-legend-of-Wanda-who-didn-t-want-to-marry-a-German.html :biggrin1:

You would expect at least some non-paternity events involving typically Germanic hg-s. But no.

parastais
08-26-2015, 09:06 PM
According to Eero Kuussaari it does. He suggested some etymology. I don't remember now, though.

According to Ms One Lithuanian (forgot her name) all Gothic leaders had Lithuanian/Baltic etymology :D

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 09:08 PM
Well Goths don't exist anymore so people can claim them for themselves.

The same is also the case with Kvens being claimed by Swedes, though. :D

parastais
08-26-2015, 09:10 PM
Seriously I can't find that Finnish etymology. I sincerely hope it is not some butterfly or something.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 09:11 PM
there was a significant Danish warlord called Rorik in the 9th c.

If Rorik of Dorestad was the guy, then Putin should be the president of Danussia, not Russia. ;)

Rurik and Rorik of Dorestad were two different persons.

===========================

Here is an article about Eero Kuussaari's theory:


About the origins of Rurik and Varangians, Finnish roots of Russia?

Recently I became interested in the issue of ancestry of Rurik, a semi-legendary founder of Kievan Rus, who is usually considered as a germanic chief, who came from the region of Roslagen in Sweden, who sailed to Novgorod together with his fella, and created a state, reconciling Slavic and Finnish tribes who fought against each other. He took power and lived until 879, when he granted land to his companions. He had brothers Sineus and Trovor. After his death the throne was taken over by Oleg, later by Igor, who united Slavic tribes as well as some Ugro-Finnic tribes under one authority.

The issue of Rurik's origins is controversial. We know not much about him. Some people think that semi-legendary Rurik was the same person as Rorik from Dorestad, who was born in Haithabu in Jutland. Some scholars think, that Rurik in fact never existed. For a very long time Tsars of Russia - descendants of Rurik - believed that their first ancestor was a native Slavic person, and that the theory about his foreign, overseas origin is propaganda, even though this is how Nestor's Primary Chronicle written during the 1100s portrayed him.

The theory about Germanic origins of Kievan Rus was for the first time presented during the 1700s by historian Gerhardt Friedrich Müller, who was invited to research work by members of Russian Academy of Sciences. When German historian started to convince them about the conquest of Rus by Scandinavians, members of the Russian Academy so much did not like that, that during a meeting in 1749 Müller's lecture was interrupted and he was asked to leave the auditorium. Russians did not want to believe, that their ancestors needed some imported thug to organize their first government. Only later more scholars started to believe in this theory.

Then in 1935 Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - established a theory that Rurik and his unit of Varangians were Finnish (precisely Baltic-Finnish). According to Kuussaari, the word "Varangian" came from Finnish words "vara / vartio" (which means "guard") or "vaara" (which means "hill" or "danger") and they were called - in their native language - Varakko-Ruotsit, which means "people who sail the seas". Finnish tribes at that time used to construct networks of wooden strongholds located on tops of hills, from which they were sending smoke signals to each other - informing about imminent dangers. In northern part of Norway - in area inhabited by Kvens - an ethnic group who spoke a dialect of Finnish language - there is a peninsula called Varanger, and local people call it Varangin Vuono, Varjakka, Varanka (all these words are Finnish). Historian Kuussaari also proposed a hypothesis, that Rurik was one of Baltic-Finnic people.

Names of brothers, friends and sons of Rurik mentioned in Scandinavian Sagas do not sound very Finnic, which is why for a long time Kuussaari's theory was being rejected by most historians. However, it is possible that those names were distorted. An example of a person whose Finnish name was distorted by Norwegian Sagas, was a certain King of Kvenland (Finland), who participated in an alliance with Norwegians in their invasion of Karelians. Finnish legends also mention that King of Kvenland, but they call it with a completely different, native name - Kaukamoinen / Kaukomieli.

In 2006 genetic research concerning the genotype of known descendants of Rurik started to be conducted (a Polish scholar Andrzej Bajor participated in that research). Surprisingly it turned out that descendants of Rurik have Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, which is the most common haplogroup among Baltic Ugro-Finnic people (68% of Finns, 50% of Estonians and 40% of inhabitants of Latvia - descendants of Livonians / Livs - have this haplogroup). This genotype is less frequent in territories of northern Russia (which used to be inhabited only by Ugro-Finnic speakers before they were Slavicized) as well as in central (10%-15%) and northern (over 30%) Sweden, which also used to be inhabited by Saami and Finnish majority in the past. This is also confirmed by presence of mutation DYS390=23, very common among Baltic-Finnish people.

Another scholar - Kalevi Wiik - says that the region of Roslagen, from which supposedly came Rurik, had been inhabited by majority of Ugro-Finnic people at least until the middle of the first millennium AD. Later that population was assimilated by Germanic tribes.

We do not know what language was spoken by Rurik. But what is certain is that in the past very larg part of northern Sweden was inhabited by tribes speaking Ugro-Finnic languages, which later were assimilated by Swedish-speakers. Some scholars extend the territory of Kvenland - described in Scandinavian Sagas - also to what is today northern Sweden. It is assumed that Northern Sweden belonged to the Finnish tribe of Kainuu, the main activities of which was hunting and imposing tribute on neighbouring Saami peoples, while farming was almost unknown for the Kainuu. Later Meänkieli dialect emerged in that region, which until this day is spoken by people who live on the western side of the River Tornio. It is also probable, that Ugro-Finnic population of Roslagen region was later reinforced by new settlers from Finland.

It is not certain, whether Rurik really was Finnish, Estonian, or Kvenish. There are several possible explanations of this theory:

- he had Finnish ancestors, who after some time were assimilated (I am not sure if term "germanized" would be good here), so he belonged to germanic culture, but part of his band consisted of Baltic Finns, who joined him on his way.

- he lived in Sweden, and he spoke some version of Baltic-Finnic (in the past in Finland there were indeed the names Ruuri and Ruurikko, which used to be quite popular among ethnic Finnish people). "Germanic-sounding" names of his brothers and companions were distorted by Scandinavian Sagas and chroniclers, or invented. It is also possible that some members of his band were of Germanic-Finnic ancestry, while he was Finnic.

- Rurik did not exist, at least not how we know him from chronicles and sagas. He was an unknown brigand, of Finnish, Estonian, Livonian or Kainuu ancestry, who took power in Novgorod; in western Finnic lands some germanic cultural influences could be seen, for example in clothes designs.

======================

Edit:


If Rorik of Dorestad was the guy, then Putin should be the president of Danussia, not Russia.

Arabic sources call the Rus' people - the Rusiyyah.

Below is another excerpt from "Journey of Ahmad Ibn-Fadlan to the Itil River and Adoption of Islam in Bulgaria". This book describes the journey of Ahmad Ibn-Fadlan, Chief of the Embassy of the Baghdad Caliph Al-Muktadir to the Volga River, to the realm of Volga Bulgars (now in central Russia), in years 921-922 CE, in regard to their adoption of Islam. This excerpt describes the behaviour of the Rusiyyah:

"(...) The Rusiyyah are the filthiest of Allah's creatures: they do not purify themselves after excreting or urinating, nor do they wash themselves when in a state of impurity after coitus and do not even wash their hands after food. Indeed they are like wild asses that roam in the fields. They arrive from their land and moor their boats by the Itil, which is a great river, building on its banks large wooden houses. They gather in each house in their tens and twenties, sometimes more, or less. Each of them has a couch on which he sits. They are accompanied by beautiful slave girls for trading. One man will have intercourse with his slave-girl while his companions look on. Sometimes a group of them comes together to do this, each in front of the other. Sometimes indeed a merchant will come in to buy a slave-girl from one of them and he will chance upon him having intercourse with her, but a Rus will not leave her alone until he has satisfied his urge. They cannot, of course, avoid washing their faces and their heads each day, which they do with the filthiest and most polluted water imaginable. I shall explain. Every day a slave-girl arrives in the morning with a large basin with water, which she hands to her owner. He washes his hands, then his face and his hair in the water, then he dips his comb in the water and brushes his hair, blows his nose and spits in the basin. There is no filthy impurity which he will not do in this water. When he no longer requires it, the slave-girl takes the basin to the man beside him and he goes through the same routine as his friend. She continues to carry it from one man to the next until she has gone round everyone in the house, with each of them blowing his nose and spitting into the basin, then washing his face and hair in the basin. (...)"

Tell me please - is that a more typically Germanic, or a more typically Finnic behaviour? :biggrin1:

And the next part of Ibn-Fadlan's account about the Rusiyyah (just for the sake of it):

"(...) As soon as their boats arrive at this port [Bulgar], each of them disembarks (...) and prostrates himself before a great idol, saying to it: 'Oh my lord, I have come from a far country and I have with me such and such a number of beautiful slave girls, and such and such a number of sable skins (...) I would like you to do the favour of sending me a merchant who has large quantities of dinars and dirhams and who will buy everything that I want and not argue with me over my price. (...)"

parastais
08-26-2015, 09:28 PM
Kalevi Wiik is freak of the freaks. Seriously. You should read more on his theories before quoting guy :)

"in the past in Finland there were indeed the names Ruuri and Ruurikko, which used to be quite popular among ethnic Finnish people" - both of them have etymologies exclusively in Norse... :) So, not even a butterfly...

I have my own theory. Peter The Great was Latvian. Long before he was born in Latvia there was a popular name among ethnic Latvian people - Pēteris...

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 09:34 PM
Kalevi Wiik is freak of the freaks.

It's not his article, he is just mentioned there.


both of them have etymologies exclusively in Norse

Wasn't the same claimed about Attila and Gothic "little father", though ???

But Snaedal found a convincing Turkic etymology as well (see the article that I posted):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5252-Kvenish-origin-of-Rurikid-branch-of-N1c&p=104881&viewfull=1#post104881

Though Attila had Gothic subjects too, and he could have a 2nd name specially for them:


(...) The truth is that Attila could be analysed as Gothic 'Little Father' (actually, Gothic atta means 'judge' or 'elder', but was chosen to be translated 'God the father' in Christian texts), but it could be coincidence or reanalysis. If I remember from Priscus in the Hunnic court Gothic and Hunnic languages were both used... maybe Attila was just his 'Gothic' name? (...)

Also it seems that Hunnic kings married Gothic princesses, which could explain Gothic names.

From Jordanes:

http://christogenea.org/references/origin-and-deeds-goths-jordanes


(...) in the third battle, when they [the Huns and the Goths] met each other unexpectedly at the river named Erac, Balamber shot an arrow and wounded Vinitharius [Gothic king] in the head, so that he died. Then Balamber took to himself in marriage Vadamerca, the grand-daughter of Vinitharius, and finally ruled all the people of the Goths as his subjects (...)

Check also:

Lotte Hedeager, "Scandinavia and the Huns: An Interdisciplinary Approach to the Migration Era":

https://www.academia.edu/5352394/Scandinavia_and_the_Huns_an_Interdisciplinary_Appr oach_to_the_Migration_Era

Wonder if haplogroup Q in Europe (including Scandinavia) has something to do with the Huns.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 09:45 PM
BTW - interesting info here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28551-Scandinavian-origin-of-the-Rurikid-N1c1-lineage-from-Central-Sweden?p=465074&viewfull=1#post465074


Wikipedia refers to a paper by Jaakko Häkkinen and observes that Rurik's N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.

I have already before noted that this could be taken as refering to the origin of this line in coastal Finland; and I do not think that coastal Swedish-speaking Finns must have come from Sweden as N1c must in any case be older in Baltic area than in Sweden and if there are today Rurikids living in Sweden, can we really be sure that their ancestors were there before Rurik was born.

George
08-26-2015, 09:55 PM
If Rorik of Dorestad was the guy, then Putin should be the president of Danussia, not Russia. ;)

Rurik and Rorik of Dorestad were two different persons.



1. You've guessed his plan? B)

2. Don't know about Dorestad. But the "Rorik" I read about had contemporary confirmation in the Chronicles of the West for the 860's and 870's. The "Rurik" of the PVL seems to emerge from the pen of Nestor c. 1113.

As for the "Rus" of the Volga, they were a gathering of looters of multiple ethnicities, with Norse and Finns probably dominant. Two of the towns known from the later Rus Chronicles (Rostov, Suzdal) may actually have had Nordic names originally (Hrossthiolf, Syrgisdalir). Acc. to the PVL, the warband which took Kyiv in 882 under Oleg's leadership was also a polyethnic gathering (Varangians, Slavs, Vepsas, Meryas et al...). We don't even know Oleg's original name. There are at least three sacral "Helgis" appearing in the sources... Non-parental events were a dime a dozen in those days. Whoever "Rurik" was, if there really was a "Rurik". Out of interest: was there some DNA testing done on some ancient "Rurikid"? I see a Prince Chetvertynsky in the FTDNA's I2a haploproject. One of your non-parentals. Which is the ancient N1c tested? Chetvertynsky was from mediaeval times.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 10:00 PM
Non-parental events were a dime a dozen in those days.

^ This is speculation, nothing more. Today they are probably just as common as back then. Anyway - if 191 descendants are tested and the majority have one specific subclade of N1c, while the rest have a big collection of various R1a and I2a etc. subclades, then N1c was most certainly the original lineage.


Out of interest: was there some DNA testing done on some ancient "Rurikid"?

You mean ancient DNA samples? Nope. Only modern descendants were tested.

Royal ancient DNA (from bones) will be tested within years, but for the Piast dynasty:

About genetic part of the project "Dynasty and society of the Piasts" (in Polish):

http://ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki/przyklady-projektow/figlerowicz

Such a scheme explaining what is this project about (I've added English translation):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31303-Where-did-Great-Moravians-go-after-the-collapse-of-Great-Moravia?p=459699&viewfull=1#post459699

Scheme:

http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png

http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png

Huge project - hopefully they will finish this and publish their results before 2020... :eek:

George
08-26-2015, 10:18 PM
^ This is speculation, nothing more. Today they are probably just as common as back then. Anyway - if 191 descendants are tested and the majority (130) have one specific subclade of N1c, while the rest have a big collection of various R1a and I2a subclades, then N1c was most certainly the original lineage.



You mean ancient DNA samples? Nope. Only modern descendants were tested.



You're perfectly welcome to your Rurik speculations. De gustibus non est disputandum. As for me, I consider Nestor a very valuable source, but he is not the Bible, so to speak, and he did invent a lot of things. I think his "Rurik the originator" was one of those inventions. As for Y-DNA testing, I prefer to wait for some confirmation from more ancient times. Modern majorities are something less than "most certain" for me. And for others also I suspect.:angel:

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 10:21 PM
Modern majorities are something less than "most certain" for me.

I understand. But even if N1c was not the "original Rurik", then something from the remaining 32% had to be. It is simply impossible that among 191 "family tree" descendants of Rurik, not even a single one is his real biological descendant due to non-paternal events. :) That would so nonsensical that just hilarious.

And not a single U106, Z284 or I1 appeared among all the 191 tested descendants, IIRC. Of course Rurikid N1c could be from Sweden or from coastal Finland, but IMO not from ethnic Swedes. I mean, that lineage could be assimilated into Swedish ethnos by that time, but originally it was rather Finnic or even Balt.


I think his "Rurik the originator" was one of those inventions.

But you doubt only the name of the founder of the dynasty, or entire story on his origin ???

BTW - as for the Piast dynasty, I also doubt in mythical "Piast". But Piast is not necessarily a personal name, because Piast sounds similar to piastun (another term: domarad), which is a term denoting a profession similar to maiordomus (mayor of the palace) in the Frankish Empire - compare: Pepin of Herstal.

According to the legend, Piast overthrew evil duke Popel, who ruled the realm before him.

So maybe that guy was originally Popel's mayor of the palace, and took power.

Shaikorth
08-26-2015, 10:38 PM
I understand. But even if N1c was not the "original Rurik", then something from the remaining 32% had to be. It is simply impossible that among 191 "family tree" descendants of Rurik, not even a single one is his real biological descendant due to non-paternal events. :) That would so nonsensical that just hilarious.

And not a single U106, Z284 or I1 appeared among all the 191 tested descendants, IIRC. Of course Rurikid N1c could be from Sweden or from coastal Finland, but IMO not from ethnic Swedes. I mean, that lineage could be assimilated into Swedish ethnos by that time, but originally it was rather Finnic or even Balt.

I suppose a NPE around Yaroslav the Wise might obscure Rurik's real lineage. But as far as we know now, that N1c found in most of princes is indeed the most likely Rurikid Y-haplo.

There is Scandinavian I1 found in Ukraine and around Russia in non-Rurikids, so my guess is that whatever his haplo Rurik travelled with Scandinavians and probably his lineage had been assimilated to North Germanic ethnos at that point. L550's route to Sweden IMO was from Estonia or Finland, based on greater N1c-L550 diversity there. Southern Baltic is basically only M2783 (founder effect, surely?), which as you can see from that tree is not a basal L550 or even a L1025-type.

Tomenable
08-26-2015, 10:54 PM
There is Scandinavian I1 found in Ukraine and around Russia in non-Rurikids

Indeed.

It could be from Scandinavian bodyguards/warriors/mercenaries serving for Rurikid princes.

In Poland, near Bodzia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodzia), they found a grave of a 25-30 years old warrior (his Y-DNA haplogroup was I1), who died from a head wound inflicted by a sword, and was buried with a belt showing without a doubt that he was one of bodyguards of Sviatopolk I the Accursed (who died in year 1019):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev

This belt has a two-pronged spear - Tamga of Sviatopolk I - on it:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/3f7a359f-78a0-4b11-bca5-baf14a27cb89.file

http://www.polskieradio.pl/3f7a359f-78a0-4b11-bca5-baf14a27cb89.file

How did that bodyguard of Sviatopolk found himself in Poland? This story is also very clear. As we know, Sviatopolk was expelled from Kiev by Yaroslav the Wise and fled towards Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev#Biography_according_to_domest ic_sources

Obviously Sviatopolk was not escaping from Kiev to Poland alone, but with a number of his boydguards and supporters. The warrior buried in Bodzia is undoubtedly one of them. Why did Sviatopolk escape to Poland and not elsehwere? Because he was a son-in-law of Polish king - Boleslav I.

And it was Boleslav I who enthroned Sviatopolk in 1018, after invading Kievan Rus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Bug

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_I%27s_intervention_in_the_Kievan_successi on_crisis

If only all of archaeological findings had such perfect historical contexts!

=============================

Strontium isotope ratios from tooth enamel of Bodzia warrior with I1 haplogroup suggest, that he was probably raised as a child in Russia. But his ancestors could have indeed come from Scandinavia.

Isotope ratios point at Russia as the place where he spent childhood (and possibly was born).

Which confirms that he fled to Poland as one of Sviatopolk's supporters expelled by Yaroslav.

George
08-26-2015, 10:57 PM
I understand. But even if N1c was not the "original Rurik", then something from the remaining 32% had to be. It is simply impossible that among 191 "family tree" descendants of Rurik, not even a single one is his real biological descendant due to non-paternal events. :) That would so nonsensical that just hilarious.

And not a single U106, Z284 or I1 appeared among all the 191 tested descendants, IIRC. Of course Rurikid N1c could be from Sweden or from coastal Finland, but IMO not from ethnic Swedes. I mean, that lineage could be assimilated into Swedish ethnos by that time, but originally it was rather Finnic or even Balt.



But you doubt only the name of the founder of the dynasty, or entire story on his origin ???



I have no problem with N1c per se. I would like to see it confirmed a little better of course. As far as this sort of thing ("royal succession stuff") is concerned. I have absolutely no doubt that the Rus dynasty was founded by Ingvar/Igor sometime in the 930's, and have no information as to his possible relationship with previous historical attested rulers of Kyiv. Including the Helgi/"Oleg" of 911. (Never mind the Helgi of 943, or that of the 9th century). A test from the 11th c. would be perfect.=== As for Rurik, I do consider him an early 12th century invention, borrowed from the lore of the Galician Rostislavichi (stemming from Yaroslav's oldest son who predeceased his father thus rendering the grandsons ineligible for the K. throne). The sequence Rurik--Igor concocted by Nestor is pure fiction I think. Just like his "Danubian homeland" for the Slavs. But these are distinct issues from your N1c. I don't think your theory would suffer much by Rurik's disappearance.

Tomenable
04-09-2016, 03:08 PM
Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):

https://s14.postimg.org/li0admzzl/N1c1a1.png

BTW:

In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

====================

Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bing_Su/publication/248384791/figure/fig4/AS:[email protected]/The-shaded-areas-represent-the-haplogroup-N-distributions.png

parastais
04-09-2016, 04:02 PM
No need to look so deep (as in 8-10 thousands years ago) for Rurik's clade.

I think Rurik's great.... grand daddy arrived to Central Sweden with Net Ware culture somewhere ~500 bce.:
8688

Possibly this is also related to Malaren axes phenomenon that links Central Sweden, Finland, Baltics c.a. 500 bce (which is ~ when all those lines under L550+, including Baltic one, seem to originate).
Who knows maybe those axes were moulded by Rurik's great ... great daddies in Central Sweden and same axes by Gediminas' great... great daddies in Lithuania. Some originally Finno-Ugric smiths (traders, shamans, warriors?) who got "culturally appropriated" by their respective Norse and Baltic hosts.

Kvenlander
11-17-2016, 10:04 AM
Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):

https://s14.postimg.org/li0admzzl/N1c1a1.png

BTW:

In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

====================

Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bing_Su/publication/248384791/figure/fig4/AS:[email protected]/The-shaded-areas-represent-the-haplogroup-N-distributions.png

I think that if we are to tie Kvens definitely to "Rurik", we would need to come closer to the present than 700 BC. Also, we might need to look more south...

Kvenland that was referred to by Othere and others is most often placed by Finnish historians and archeologists around the area of Kyrö River (inland from town of Vaasa on the Finnish west coast). This area had its golden age during the Merovingian period and had strong ties to the western side of the Bothnian Gulf (which incidentally is called Kven Sea in the old maps and descriptions). Being "serious" scientists, they usual refrain from making very bold predictions but the possibility of Kvenland covering both sides of the Gulf has been presented as a real possibility due to similarity in archeological material. Also the fact that at "Kvarken" between Vaasa and Umea the Gulf is at its narrowest, so when we consider that at that time the sea travel was much faster than over land, it is conceivable that these coasts were part of the same culture/realm.

By the way, concerning the raids conducted by Kvens on Norway: Othere did not actually say that the Kvens raided HIS home place but Norway in general. For example from Sundsvall one can find routes through rivers and long lakes that can possibly be used to access Trondheim area by using portable boats. Kvens probably used a type of boat called "haapio" which is a very light and resilient boat capable of carrying up to six men with their gear (some earlier researchers have even talked of 10-12 men but this seems as an exaggeration.

Othere states that Sweden "borders" Kvenland, somewhere north of Uppsala Kvenland would start, although I do not know how far north the land of the Svear would have reached in the 9th century.

However, this is where the matter get complicated. Around the same time as Othere was accounting his travels, the settlements around Kyrö river were declining and ceased almost altogether in the 10th century. Even though this decline has been lately timed later, for example the ship burial at Kaavontönkkä (a cremated ship of approx. 15 m long containing a man wrapped in bear skin and accompanied by valuable weapons and jewelry) has been carbon dated to the mid 10th instead of Merovingian period as previously thought. Nonetheless, the Kyrö culture (if it was THE Kvenland) ceased to exist at that time. the reasons that have been forwarded range from the opening of Eastern trade route which affected the fur trade from the East (Bjarmia), to the plague, to the extermination by the Tavastians or people from Satakunta ("North-Finland", more from that later). Whatever the cause, the exploitation of the Western Coast of (today's) Finland as well as the Lappland taxing was continued by these more southern Finnic people and the Norwegians continued to call any Finnic speaking people as Kvens (this has continued without break until to this day, when the native Finnish (Kven) speaking minority of Norway is called Kvens. The settlement of Finns (mostly Savonians) in North Sweden was started by Gustav Vasa in the 16th century whereas there are numerous mentions of Kvens in Norwegian documents from the 13th/14th centuries, including mentions of raids, so these are either remnants of "old" Kvenland or references to more southern Finns. To the latter belongs probably the saga including a descriptions of an alliance between a Norwegian lord of the North and the "king of Kvenland" Faravid (Finnish: Kaukomieli) to fight the Karelians and (probably) Novgorodians.

So, if "Rurik" came from Roslagen it seems unlikely that he was from Kvenland of the 9th century. Also, I believe Swedish sources do not speak of Kvenland but refer to Finland and Tavastland when they talk of their Finnic neighbours, so "Kven" seems to have been a Norwegian term (they preserved "Finn" to Saamis, whereas Swedes used Scridefinne, "skiing Finn", for Saami). There is no proto-Rurikid found in the Northern Sweden, or is there?

Roslagen was more closely tied to today's Satakunta in Finland. There are mentions of "two Finlands" in some sources and it seems that there was a distinction between North Finland and South Finland, with river Aura (running through Turku) as a border. North Finland and Svealand had close ties and the mainstream history asserts that North Finland was subject to King of Uppsala at least from the early 11th century. Long before that, according to Prof. Unto Salo, Satakunta was organized as a "hundare" (hence the Norwegian mention of King of Kvenland commanding three hundares) and was probably in alliance with King of Uppsala. Further, archeological finds form several graves in the Malaren lake region (including Birka) suggest that the person buried was from Satakunta region, i.e. "North Finland" which, if true, would be evidence of immigration between these two regions. Again, the sea between unites, not divides, the coasts. Unfortunately, to my knowledge those graves have not given any DNA that could be tested...

I have no knowledge of the ethnic composition of Roslagen in the 9th century but knowing that the close tie between Svealand and North-Finland at that time is an established fact, I would see it as plausible that a person with haplogroup N1c would be present or even leading a group of "Rus", which language he spoke and from which side of the sea he hailed from I cannot say. It is even possible that he was a descendant of "old" Kvenland that had moved south after decline of Kyröjoki culture and we do not really know where the border between Svealand and Kvenland was. Whether everything happened as in the chronicles, I cannot say. Maybe it started as some kind of warrier/trader elite and the story with invitation and everything was invented later...

Kvenlander
11-20-2016, 12:36 PM
By the way, a Swedish doctoral dissertation concluded already in 1734 that Österbotten and Västerbotten, Eastern and Western coasts of the Bothnian Gulf respectively, had in the ancient times formed one kingdom. This is the reason the king Charles XI used a title "de Kajaners konung", King of the Kvens. This conclusion might have been based on some subsequently lost oral traditions.

Kvenlander
11-20-2016, 05:58 PM
If we return to the genetic issue after sidestepping to the history of Kvenland, we must look into the facts. As far as I know, the current status is that the Rurikid and proto-Rurikid haplotypes stem from the Swedish side but that they are also very common among the Swedish speaking Finns on the coast of Finland.

Now, the Uusimaa region (sw. Nyland - "New Land") on the south coast was mostly empty in the 12th century. The Swedish settlers generally moved to areas which were not previously settled and Nyland was no exception. Previously it was thought that Nyland was empty due to threat by Vikings (the Eastern trade route passed by its coast) and by other pirates. However, lately this has been disputed and the fact that the area is not very good for agriculture with the Viking age tools led to the abandonment of the area when the Finns adopted agriculture. It was used as a hunting ground by the Tavastians and was not actually completely empty of settlements, either. So, it was ripe for (re-)settlement only in the 12th-13th century and some of the Swedish settlers came from Hälsingland on the East coast of Sweden. Hence the Name Helsinki (Sw. Helsingfors) for the current capital. The original name was Hälsingeby, the village of Hälsinge (people). So, if any of those from Hälsingland were descendants of Finnic inhabitants of Eastern coast of Sweden, Kvenish or not, it would be conceivable that some would be among the settlers, as well.