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Vertor
08-29-2015, 11:13 AM
Having worked on a paper trail for over forty years, I've graduated to genetic genealogy in just the last couple of years, and though I find it fascinating and addictive, I'm very certain that I'm not getting nearly as much out of it as I might. Hence this attempt to educate myself.

My paper trail is very largely based on a paper 'pedigree' written in 1898 which traces my male line back to a John Joyce (Seán Mór Seoighe in Irish), active in north Kerry c.1680. I would, of course, love to bring my DNA side near enough to link up with that trail, but I recognize that may be some way off. In the meantime, though, I want to understand as much of the genetic side of things as I can, in its own right.

I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.

I recently took the P312 backbone test, which has me as R-DF17. This, too, is shared with this Shaw line. In order to push on as far as I can on the DNA side, I've just ordered the Big Y test, and I understand my results for that should come through in about two months. I've already done the Family Finder test, but that hasn't yet resulted in any great clarity.

So, any observations, comments, suggestions as to what to do next, would be welcome. Forgive me if there are occasional long pauses on my side of any exchanges. That would be while I google frantically, trying to figure my way through all the technical terms that litter this board. I'm an innocent newbie, remember!

Webb
08-29-2015, 01:01 PM
If you haven't done so, please join the DF27 project at FTDNA. I would also recommend joining the DF27 Yahoo group. For those of us who have had the BigY done, there is a folder at the Yahoo group where you can post your Bam file, which is a zipped file of your results. Alex Williamson takes the Bam files and runs comparisons. He has a really cool website, where he sorts the results. Please check out his website, ytree.net. There are a number of DF17 results posted there. Of interest to you may be the Irish results. Three with Gaelic derived surnames. It is very interesting.

Vertor
08-29-2015, 01:16 PM
Thanks for this, Webb! I knew about some of this already, but it's great to get a clear confirmation of what to do, and in what order.


If you haven't done so, please join the DF27 project at FTDNA.

That would be the "R DF27 and Subclades" project? Done!


I would also recommend joining the DF27 Yahoo group.

I'm in!


For those of us who have had the BigY done, there is a folder at the Yahoo group where you can post your Bam file, which is a zipped file of your results. Alex Williamson takes the Bam files and runs comparisons. He has a really cool website, where he sorts the results. Please check out his website, ytree.net. There are a number of DF17 results posted there. Of interest to you may be the Irish results. Three with Gaelic derived surnames. It is very interesting.

Yes, reading comments about his site was one of the things that pushed me towards getting the Big Y. Now I'll be all Are we there yet? Are we there yet? until my results arrive.

I'll head off now and have a look at those Irish results.

Webb
08-29-2015, 01:46 PM
Thanks for this, Webb! I knew about some of this already, but it's great to get a clear confirmation of what to do, and in what order.



That would be the "R DF27 and Subclades" project? Done!



I'm in!



Yes, reading comments about his site was one of the things that pushed me towards getting the Big Y. Now I'll be all Are we there yet? Are we there yet? until my results arrive.

I'll head off now and have a look at those Irish results.

Ok. Once you have looked at that site, let me know. The next site to look at will be Yfull.com. Alex does his analysis for free. Yfull charges around 50 dollars to analyze your bam file. The other main difference is that Yfull provides dates. They provide snp born on dates and TMRCA dates. The two sites used in conjunction with each other, imo, are the best tool out there. Unfortunately not everyone who is on Alex's tree has submitted their Bam to Yfull for interpretation.

razyn
08-29-2015, 05:13 PM
I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.
I assume he's #91302, who joined today, and when I moved him into group C he's next to you. Btw the Hanby guy a couple of rows down shares several of your off-modals, which is usually more telling than GD as such (because it's less likely to be coincidental convergence of numbers that can cycle up and down -- especially on the faster changing markers, with red background color at the top).

There's a well-known Irish James Joyce; is he one of those Seoighe guys? And DF17+? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce

Vertor
08-30-2015, 11:24 AM
Ok. Once you have looked at that site, let me know.

I think I've found the page you mean (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29) there, with the three recognizably Irish names at the bottom.


The next site to look at will be Yfull.com. Alex does his analysis for free. Yfull charges around 50 dollars to analyze your bam file. The other main difference is that Yfull provides dates. They provide snp born on dates and TMRCA dates. The two sites used in conjunction with each other, imo, are the best tool out there. Unfortunately not everyone who is on Alex's tree has submitted their Bam to Yfull for interpretation.

Yes, I can see what good tools these are, and I'm looking forward to submitting my own data to both sites. But am I correct in thinking that I can only do so after my Big Y results come through?

REWM
08-30-2015, 11:32 AM
Yes you need to wait for your Big Y bam file.

Vertor
08-30-2015, 11:59 AM
I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.

I assume he's #91302, who joined today, and when I moved him into group C he's next to you.

Yes, that's the one. (I'm assuming you're referring to this page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=yresults)?)


Btw the Hanby guy a couple of rows down shares several of your off-modals, which is usually more telling than GD as such (because it's less likely to be coincidental convergence of numbers that can cycle up and down -- especially on the faster changing markers, with red background color at the top).

(GD is Genetic Distance, yes?) Now, this sort of observation is a complete revelation to me. I'd always just taken the GD as given by ftDNA as gospel as regards the possible strength of a genetic connection, but you appear to be suggesting that one might get better results by manually checking for oneself? But where do I find the modal for that haplotype, so that I can do that comparison? Thank you, incidentally, for directing me to look at the colour coding at the top. The whole page is so densely packed with information, I'd not got around to noticing that.


There's a well-known Irish James Joyce; is he one of those Seoighe guys? And DF17+? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce

Hmmmph! Well, yes and no. JJ was indeed a Seoighe, and his paper-trail goes back to the town of Fermoy in County Cork. The Michael Joyce who wrote that 'pedigree' I referred to above, came from Glenosheen in east Limerick, only about fifteen miles north of Fermoy as the crow flies. As a result, and since the Joyce/Seoighe name isn't particularly common in that part of Ireland (Joyce country is about 150 miles further north again, in Connaught), I've always assumed a fairly close relationship between the two lines. When the biography of JJ's father was published, about twenty years ago, the first chapter drew heavily on that 'pedigree', and the authors assumed a genetic relationship, but acknowledged they could provide only circumstantial evidence for it. You can see that chapter online here (https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jackson-joyce.html).

In brief, they hypothesize a common ancestor named John, in one of two generations, who was a wealthy farmer, but have no paper record of such a man. By chance, soon after that book appeared, I came across an independent piece of evidence, to prove his existence, but that merely tightens the net of circumstantial evidence, and doesn't actually clinch it. So, unless and until some known relation of JJ in the male line get's DNA tested, there's no knowing for certain whether JJ was DF17 or not.

Webb
08-30-2015, 05:35 PM
I think I've found the page you mean (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29) there, with the three recognizably Irish names at the bottom.



Yes, I can see what good tools these are, and I'm looking forward to submitting my own data to both sites. But am I correct in thinking that I can only do so after my Big Y results come through?

That is the page. You will notice that at the top of the block for the three Irish gents and the Scot are Burness, another Scot, and the two 1K Genomes kits. One is Puerto Rican and the other Italian. These two are anonymous. If you look at YFull's tree you will find these three kits as well, with a TMRCA listed as 2300 ybp. This is around 285 b.c. On Alex's tree you will see the German, Menge shares a few snps with these three. Then under him Durkin and Meehan share a large number of private snps, then under them you have Mulvihill and McDonald, the Scot. I am thinking you might cluster some where in this group. You won't know for sure until your results come back in, of course. But because of YFull's analysis, you know this line starts around 285 b.c. in Europe, but because none of the rest have submitted results to Yfull, you have no idea about dates below. If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.

razyn
08-30-2015, 08:08 PM
If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.
Just in case it's of any use or relevance, I'll insert this from last year on a different DF17 thread:

A couple of weekends ago I met Mike Durkin at the I4GG conference in Maryland. We got to discuss DF17 very casually, in my case from fuzzy memory rather than firm knowledge or conviction; and btw we had lunch with Thomas Krahn
He was interested enough to spend a weekend at a genetic genealogy conference, so I expect he'd be willing to do the YFull stuff (though as far as I know, he hasn't yet).
And btw another one of the guys on your short list posts here, as Breckenheimer. His ancestor was German; he's more of a Texian.

Vertor
08-31-2015, 11:51 AM
That is the page. You will notice that at the top of the block for the three Irish gents and the Scot are Burness, another Scot, and the two 1K Genomes kits. One is Puerto Rican and the other Italian. These two are anonymous. If you look at YFull's tree you will find these three kits as well, with a TMRCA listed as 2300 ybp. This is around 285 b.c. On Alex's tree you will see the German, Menge shares a few snps with these three. Then under him Durkin and Meehan share a large number of private snps, then under them you have Mulvihill and McDonald, the Scot. I am thinking you might cluster some where in this group. You won't know for sure until your results come back in, of course. But because of YFull's analysis, you know this line starts around 285 b.c. in Europe, but because none of the rest have submitted results to Yfull, you have no idea about dates below. If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.

Thanks, Webb! As predicted, it took me quite a while to get the gist of what you're saying here, but now I do (I think), you've given me a nice course of action. I'll go through it in more detail while I wait for my Big Y results to come back, and try to make sure I'm ready to make best use of them when they arrive.

Vertor
08-31-2015, 11:56 AM
Just in case it's of any use or relevance, I'll insert this from last year on a different DF17 thread:

He was interested enough to spend a weekend at a genetic genealogy conference, so I expect he'd be willing to do the YFull stuff (though as far as I know, he hasn't yet).

I had already read this on the other thread, but never suspected it might be the same Durkin. Small world!


And btw another one of the guys on your short list posts here, as Breckenheimer. His ancestor was German; he's more of a Texian.

This, too, is added to my to-do list for a couple of months out. I'm certainly getting a crash course here in genetic genealogy and the GG community. It's an education in itself! Many thanks.

mdurkin
09-04-2015, 04:24 PM
Hi Dick,

I've downloaded my BAM file from FTDNA and I'll upload to YFull shortly.

I am very interested to see if there is a reasonable estimate for TMRCA. I would love to know at what point in history DF17 entered into Ireland.

-Mike Durkin




Just in case it's of any use or relevance, I'll insert this from last year on a different DF17 thread:

He was interested enough to spend a weekend at a genetic genealogy conference, so I expect he'd be willing to do the YFull stuff (though as far as I know, he hasn't yet).
And btw another one of the guys on your short list posts here, as Breckenheimer. His ancestor was German; he's more of a Texian.

Webb
09-04-2015, 05:31 PM
Hi Dick,

I've downloaded my BAM file from FTDNA and I'll upload to YFull shortly.

I am very interested to see if there is a reasonable estimate for TMRCA. I would love to know at what point in history DF17 entered into Ireland.

-Mike Durkin

That would be awesome. This is one of the few potential success stories in genetic testing. Your cluster has a nice solid run, with shared snp clusters. You actually have the possiblility of pinning down what, in my opinion, is a successful founder effect of your run of DF17 in Ireland. Yfull seems to be pretty accurate with TMRCA predictions. In one of the runs of CTS4065, there is a TMRCA prediction of 50 years between two kits who are very closely related. I am also curious to see when this line started in Ireland. This could be very important in understanding DF27.

mdurkin
09-04-2015, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure if this is expected...

I've uploaded the BAM file to YFull, but they have not yet asked for payment. Do they process the BAM file first and then send you information on how to pay in order to see the results?

-Mike



That would be awesome. This is one of the few potential success stories in genetic testing. Your cluster has a nice solid run, with shared snp clusters. You actually have the possiblility of pinning down what, in my opinion, is a successful founder effect of your run of DF17 in Ireland. Yfull seems to be pretty accurate with TMRCA predictions. In one of the runs of CTS4065, there is a TMRCA prediction of 50 years between two kits who are very closely related. I am also curious to see when this line started in Ireland. This could be very important in understanding DF27.

Webb
09-04-2015, 07:56 PM
I'm not sure if this is expected...

I've uploaded the BAM file to YFull, but they have not yet asked for payment. Do they process the BAM file first and then send you information on how to pay in order to see the results?

-Mike

That is how it works. You pay after the analysis has been done.

razyn
09-04-2015, 11:42 PM
Glad you are aboard, and don't forget to join the DF27 group at YFull -- a bunch of DF27 guys have not yet done so. (Their YFull member numbers are on the tree, but they are not in the group, so I don't know what FTDNA kit should be associated. Especially if the kit owner turns out to be a project admin who uploads several kits.)

Btw you don't have to download your BAM file and then upload it. You can just give the FTDNA-generated link (a very long url) to YFull -- or FGC -- and they upload it directly. I've never downloaded my own -- either the FGC Elite one, or the BigY one. Would not know what to do with the BAM thing, anyway.

mdurkin
10-04-2015, 12:18 AM
OK, The results are in and I've joined the DF27 group.

-Mike Durkin


Glad you are aboard, and don't forget to join the DF27 group at YFull -- a bunch of DF27 guys have not yet done so. (Their YFull member numbers are on the tree, but they are not in the group, so I don't know what FTDNA kit should be associated. Especially if the kit owner turns out to be a project admin who uploads several kits.)

Btw you don't have to download your BAM file and then upload it. You can just give the FTDNA-generated link (a very long url) to YFull -- or FGC -- and they upload it directly. I've never downloaded my own -- either the FGC Elite one, or the BigY one. Would not know what to do with the BAM thing, anyway.

Vertor
10-12-2015, 09:01 PM
That is the page. You will notice that at the top of the block for the three Irish gents and the Scot are Burness, another Scot, and the two 1K Genomes kits. One is Puerto Rican and the other Italian. These two are anonymous. If you look at YFull's tree you will find these three kits as well, with a TMRCA listed as 2300 ybp. This is around 285 b.c. On Alex's tree you will see the German, Menge shares a few snps with these three. Then under him Durkin and Meehan share a large number of private snps, then under them you have Mulvihill and McDonald, the Scot. I am thinking you might cluster some where in this group. You won't know for sure until your results come back in, of course. But because of YFull's analysis, you know this line starts around 285 b.c. in Europe, but because none of the rest have submitted results to Yfull, you have no idea about dates below. If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.

Okay, then. My BigY results are back a few days, and submitted to Alex Williamson, who has me positioned, provisionally, slightly to one side of this bunch, including Menge. In ftDNA I show as having just one BigY match, with just two differences in known SNPs. I've written to that match, and am hoping for some progress that way. Also, just yesterday, I submitted my data to yfull.

Any further suggestions, comments, instructions, or general observations which might help clue me in, universally welcome.

Webb
10-13-2015, 01:35 PM
Okay, then. My BigY results are back a few days, and submitted to Alex Williamson, who has me positioned, provisionally, slightly to one side of this bunch, including Menge. In ftDNA I show as having just one BigY match, with just two differences in known SNPs. I've written to that match, and am hoping for some progress that way. Also, just yesterday, I submitted my data to yfull.

Any further suggestions, comments, instructions, or general observations which might help clue me in, universally welcome.

This is very interesting. You did not cluster with the other Irish gents!!! You are actually above Menge, which is not what I expected. I am sure you have read many of the posts on this forum in regards to DF27. There are many different suggestions and theories about origin, spread, concentration, and so forth. It seems to me when dealing with DF27 in Ireland, one has to be take into account whether the surnames associated with DF27 signatures are Gaelic in origin or not. The other Irish gents seem to have Gaelic surnames, they are downstream of continental samples, which is expected. DF27 in Ireland is a minoritiy, so to find a DF17 cluster, one would have to assume a founder effect. However, since you are also Irish, and are not part of this cluster, it opens the possiblility of an early spread of DF17 in Ireland, if you can be sure your origins are Gaelic. Not that I am doubting they are!! I think this is all very important in understanding the spread, to and from, of DF27.

Vertor
10-13-2015, 03:24 PM
This is very interesting. You did not cluster with the other Irish gents!!! You are actually above Menge, which is not what I expected. I am sure you have read many of the posts on this forum in regards to DF27. There are many different suggestions and theories about origin, spread, concentration, and so forth. It seems to me when dealing with DF27 in Ireland, one has to be take into account whether the surnames associated with DF27 signatures are Gaelic in origin or not. The other Irish gents seem to have Gaelic surnames, they are downstream of continental samples, which is expected. DF27 in Ireland is a minoritiy, so to find a DF17 cluster, one would have to assume a founder effect. However, since you are also Irish, and are not part of this cluster, it opens the possiblility of an early spread of DF17 in Ireland, if you can be sure your origins are Gaelic. Not that I am doubting they are!! I think this is all very important in understanding the spread, to and from, of DF27.

Thanks, Webb. I'll luxuriate in my oddity, while it lasts. The name "Joyce" is taken to be of Norman origin, I gather, perhaps with a stopover in Wales on the way to Ireland. Not, in any event, a native Gaelic surname, despite the fact that the heartland of the name in recent centuries, the so-called Joyce Country in Connaught, is deeply embedded among many incontestably Gaelic names. I did find it odd, when I tested to 111 markers, that I seemed unconnected with any other Joyces, my only match at that level being a Shaw from Leinster. As I think I've remarked before, Shaw is a plausible version of Seoighe, the Gaelic version of Joyce. Maybe there was some NPE a few centuries back? In any event, I'm fascinated by the broader context within which you interpret my results. Do please let me know if there's anything else I should do while awaiting action from yfull, or a response from my (Brazilian, I think) BigY match.

Dubhthach
10-13-2015, 03:30 PM
Though I've always heard of Joyce family in Galway having originated in Wales, I'm not sure though wether it's case of a Welsh family adapting a name based on Norman french personal name, or a case of Cambro-Norman's.

Of course some of most visible examples of Irish speakers in Ireland today bear the surname Seoige, given it's heavy association with West Galway.

Connell Warrior
11-10-2015, 02:49 PM
I stumbled across this site while looking for info on my Y dna group, I did the 67 marker test on FTDNA and had one match at 12 markers. I was then advised to take a R1b-M343 backbone test, the result came back today with me being in the R-DF17 Halpogroup. I'm Irish and the paternal surname is Connell, but I live in the UK, my Connells were from round Ardcath and Stamullen in County Meath back to about the 1650s, prior to then they were supposed to come from Connaught. I'm new to this DNA stuff but am a quick learner. I thought you would be interested after reading through these posts. My kit no is B67507.
Thanks,
Paul

Connell Warrior
11-12-2015, 08:59 AM
I had a couple of emails off Gerry who runs the O Connell page on FTDNA, he was saying that due to one of my two 12 marker matches being from Finland, Viking raids could have removed a DF17 from Ireland between 800-1000AD. He said it has been found with the O Connells DNA which is mainly A151, theres quite a bit of it in Scandinavia. He also said that DF17 looks like it seems to originate in North Kerry, however my line is stuck in Co Meath back to the late 1600s, family stories say they moved there after Cromwells land clearances. The first to arrive was a swordsman who was fighting against Cromwell's army. I have no male relatives to be able to test unless I go back at least 6 generations and back down again! I think its very interesting to find out who is from where! I have sent an email to my Finnish match, his group is DF13, to clear up some confusion I have with his surname. It looks like its Knocklars and I also have a match in Canada called Coolidge. They start with the same sound as Connell, I wondered if when these names were first written down the way people said them had changed from when they ordinated a few centuries earlier.

Gray Fox
11-12-2015, 09:57 AM
I had a couple of emails off Gerry who runs the O Connell page on FTDNA, he was saying that due to one of my two 12 marker matches being from Finland, Viking raids could have removed a DF17 from Ireland between 800-1000AD. He said it has been found with the O Connells DNA which is mainly A151, theres quite a bit of it in Scandinavia. He also said that DF17 looks like it seems to originate in North Kerry, however my line is stuck in Co Meath back to the late 1600s, family stories say they moved there after Cromwells land clearances. The first to arrive was a swordsman who was fighting against Cromwell's army. I have no male relatives to be able to test unless I go back at least 6 generations and back down again! I think its very interesting to find out who is from where! I have sent an email to my Finnish match,his group is DF13, to clear up some confusion I have with his surname. It looks like its Knocklars and I also have a match in Canada called Coolidge. They start with the same sound as Connell, I wondered if when these names were first written down the way people said them had changed from when they ordinated a few centuries earlier.

DF13 is a sub-branch under R1b-L21.

Dubhthach
11-12-2015, 10:13 AM
I think this is a clear case of where 12 STR matches are by and large useless. As Gray Fox points out your match is L21+/DF13+, in comparison as you are DF17+ you are DF27+ as a result (which is parallel to L21 under P312), the last time you could possibly have shared a common ancestor with that match at 12 was during the Bronze age!

Connell Warrior
11-12-2015, 11:53 AM
Do you think as far back as that? I did 67 markers and only had the two matches at 12 markers!

Dubhthach
11-12-2015, 12:11 PM
Do you think as far back as that? I did 67 markers and only had the two matches at 12 markers!

Yes because both DF27 and L21 probably arose during the Bronze age, both are subclades of P312, so any common ancestor is at P312 level.

To use a personal example. I'm P312+ -> L21+ -> DF13+ -> DF41+, as you are P312+ -> DF27+ -> <snip> --> DF17+, the last time the two of us would have shared common direct Y-line ancestor is with some dude who who was P312+ (L21-, DF27-) which is probably during the early-mid bronze age. :) (as we are both Irish we probably share lot more recent autosomal ancestry)

Connell Warrior
11-12-2015, 12:39 PM
Got you! I'm slowly getting the hang of this, I know on the autosomal matches there are hundreds, now some say third and fourth cousins, but my tree is pretty complete at least that far back and I think the common ancestors could be another hundred or more years ago as I haven't found one yet! I find this male line much more interesting and the distance it goes back etc.

Webb
11-12-2015, 02:52 PM
Got you! I'm slowly getting the hang of this, I know on the autosomal matches there are hundreds, now some say third and fourth cousins, but my tree is pretty complete at least that far back and I think the common ancestors could be another hundred or more years ago as I haven't found one yet! I find this male line much more interesting and the distance it goes back etc.

For perspective, I have almost 1000 12 marker matches, as my values are very close to modal for R-M269. I have matches at 12 markers ranging from U106 to just about all of the various P312 clades. Also keep in mind a surname is just that, a name. Anyone at any point could have broken the surname chain. I think in your case though, the evidence is starting to build that there was some early settlement of DF17 in Ireland. How early is anyone's guess until we get more BigY or Full Genome testing to hash out the dates for shared common ancestor. But so far the DF17 gents in Ireland all seem to have Gaelic origin surnames. The last thing is that snp testing is funny. You can have a shared snp with a person, but yet not have a very close STR string value. In my case I have a 37 marker match who was at one time Z220 as I was. We were both convinced we had a common ancestor of around 1000 A.D., based on our genetic distance. However, as time went on we discovered we have divergent snp's below Z220, which means we have not had a common ancestor since 1000 B.C. This is a prime example of possible back mutations which can make two individuals appear to be more closely related than what they really are.

razyn
11-12-2015, 05:35 PM
I was on an airplane most of 11/10 so I didn't see FTDNA stuff, or notice the new DF17 guy Connell. (But somebody has moved him into the right group. If I did that, I neglected to make a note of it.) Anyway, there was a more general DF17 thread that ran for about year; but nobody has posted on it since April. This Irish oriented one is more recent, and its subject heading might not attract the Vikings, high Germans and other Continental DF17 folks who may look in from time to time. So, I just mention it. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2446-Interesting-structure-under-DF17-being-revealed-by-Big-Y

Webb
11-12-2015, 07:36 PM
I was on an airplane most of 11/10 so I didn't see FTDNA stuff, or notice the new DF17 guy Connell. (But somebody has moved him into the right group. If I did that, I neglected to make a note of it.) Anyway, there was a more general DF17 thread that ran for about year; but nobody has posted on it since April. This Irish oriented one is more recent, and its subject heading might not attract the Vikings, high Germans and other Continental DF17 folks who may look in from time to time. So, I just mention it. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2446-Interesting-structure-under-DF17-being-revealed-by-Big-Y

Yes, but the Irish gents seem to be a lively bunch!!!

Connell Warrior
11-13-2015, 07:16 PM
Yes, that's the one. (I'm assuming you're referring to this page[/U

(GD is Genetic Distance, yes?) Now, this sort of observation is a complete revelation to me. I'd always just taken the GD as given by ftDNA as gospel as regards the possible strength of a genetic connection, but you appear to be suggesting that one might get better results by manually checking for oneself? But where do I find the modal for that haplotype, so that I can do that comparison? Thank you, incidentally, for directing me to look at the colour coding at the top. The whole page is so densely packed with information, I'd not got around to noticing that.



Hmmmph! Well, yes and no. JJ was indeed a Seoighe, and his paper-trail goes back to the town of Fermoy in County Cork. The Michael Joyce who wrote that 'pedigree' I referred to above, came from Glenosheen in east Limerick, only about fifteen miles north of Fermoy as the crow flies. As a result, and since the Joyce/Seoighe name isn't particularly common in that part of Ireland (Joyce country is about 150 miles further north again, in Connaught), I've always assumed a fairly close relationship between the two lines. When the biography of JJ's father was published, about twenty years ago, the first chapter drew heavily on that 'pedigree', and the authors assumed a genetic relationship, but acknowledged they could provide only circumstantial evidence for it. You can see that chapter online [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jackson-joyce.html"]here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=yresults).

In brief, they hypothesize a common ancestor named John, in one of two generations, who was a wealthy farmer, but have no paper record of such a man. By chance, soon after that book appeared, I came across an independent piece of evidence, to prove his existence, but that merely tightens the net of circumstantial evidence, and doesn't actually clinch it. So, unless and until some known relation of JJ in the male line get's DNA tested, there's no knowing for certain whether JJ was DF17 or not.

I find this quite interesting as my DF17 is much different to most people on the O'Connell page, to start with I just presumed my Connells would have started as O'Connells, but now looking like this presumption was wrong. My Connells came from Ardcath in County Meath, I have written records back into the late 1700s, prior to that family stories say that Simon Connell who was a good swordsman, who had fought Cromwells army in the 1650s, had come to Ardcath from Connaught after being pushed off their lands by Cromwell. I'm getting hooked on finding out more!
Paul

razyn
11-14-2015, 02:08 PM
I've changed the description of group C (DF17) a bit to hint at the additional levels below it that can now be tested on the new DF27 SNP pack. That test just came on line, and we don't have any DF17 results from it yet -- but it is programmed to detect five levels of DF17 (and is a lot cheaper than a BigY). Here is the DF17 detail from Mike Walsh's tree-formatted graphic of the DF27 SNP pack:

6631

Unlike a BigY, the SNP pack won't discover any previously unknown subclades. And occasionally a level is detected by the somewhat more thorough sequencing at FGC, in some region of the Y chromosome that BigY doesn't test.

Dubhthach
11-14-2015, 05:39 PM
Here's what Woulfe has in his 1923 book on surname Connell/O'Connell



Ó CONAILL—I—O Conaill, O'Connell, Connell; 'descendant of Conall, ' (high-powerful, an ancient personal name Welsh Cynvall, British Cunovalos, Celtic Kunovalos); the name of at least three distinct families in Ireland, viz.: (1) Ó Conaill of Derry, a branch of the Oirghialla, who were anciently lords of Ui Mac Carthainn, now the barony of Tirkeeran; (2) Ó Conaill of Galway, a branch of the Ui Maine, who anciently possessed a territory in the south of Co. Galway, between the river Grian and the borders of Thomond; and (3) Ó Conaill of Kerry, who were anciently chiefs of Magh O gCoinchin, in the east of that county, until dispossessed by the O'Donoghues about the middle of the 11th century. From the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion down to the 17th century, the O'Connells were followers of MacCarthy More and hereditary castellans of Ballycarbery, near Caherciveen. Maurice O'Connell, the head of the family in Cromwell's time, was transplanted to Brentir, near Lisdoonvarna, in Co. Clare. Several of this family became distinguished in the Irish Brigades in the service of France, among whom may be mentioned Count Daniel O'Connell, uncle of the Liberator, Daniel O'Connell, by whom this surname has been made for ever illustrious. O'Connell is now one of the most numerous of Irish surnames. O'Heerin writes the name of the Kerry family Ó Conghaile, but Ó Conaill is the form now universally in use in Munster.

---- (personal name)---
CONALL, genitive -aill, Conall, Connell; Celt. *Kuno-valo-s, high-mighty; an ancient and once common Irish personal name; still in use among a few families. Eight saints of the name are mentioned in the Martyrology of Donegal. Latin — Conallus.



So three distinct families bearing the name. Not having looked at the Connell project it's quite possible that many of tested men belong to one of these three (on probability the Kerry family would be my guess given it's fame)

It's quite a widespread name if we look at Griffith survey's map's of 19th century, during that time most name forms had dropped the O' (Sullivan is good case of a surname which was majority dropped the O' during by 19th century but which saw a major resurgence with Gaelic revival/cultural movement in late 19th -- so that O'Sullivan is now more common in Ireland)

Anyways:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Connell&UserID=
vs.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=O%27Connell&UserID=
vs. (smallest of lot)
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Connel&UserID=

-Paul

Vertor
11-18-2015, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry to have been distracted from this thread, but am very happy to find the conversation has continued anyway. I can report, though, from a number of fronts on my own Big-Y results (kit # 272106), and hope that'll maybe be of some significance when fitted in with everything else.

I have made contact with my one Big-Y match on ftDNA: surname Borba.

Shared novel variants 80
Non-matching known SNPs: 2
Matching SNPs: 26,979

He believes that his earliest known Y-ancestor — Melchior Luiz, b. c1580 — was a Flemish immigrant to the Azores. Given that my own surname is Norman, I'm guessing the connection might be pre-13th century in north Europe, or perhaps more recently via sea-routes along the Atlantic seaboard.

He submitted his results to Alex Williamson, and now shows on Y-Tree just above myself. http://tinyurl.com/ouvmwsz

Also, I submitted my own results to Y-Full, where I now find myself as part of a rapidly growing group. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF17/

I now find myself with a good deal more information than I can readily form into a coherent picture. I'd be very glad of any suggestions, interpretations, or ideas as to what to do next. And my apologies if I've belaboured the obvious in giving too much data above; I'm just not always sure exactly what's relevant.

Connell Warrior
11-22-2015, 04:25 PM
I've changed the description of group C (DF17) a bit to hint at the additional levels below it that can now be tested on the new DF27 SNP pack. That test just came on line, and we don't have any DF17 results from it yet -- but it is programmed to detect five levels of DF17 (and is a lot cheaper than a BigY). Here is the DF17 detail from Mike Walsh's tree-formatted graphic of the DF27 SNP pack:

6631

Unlike a BigY, the SNP pack won't discover any previously unknown subclades. And occasionally a level is detected by the somewhat more thorough sequencing at FGC, in some region of the Y chromosome that BigY doesn't test.
So if I get this DF27SNP pack it will take my DF 17 as far down as it will go?

Connell Warrior
12-02-2015, 02:38 PM
Well I took advantage of the sale and a discount and ordered my Big Y test, it will be interesting how many levels if any it comes further down!

razyn
12-02-2015, 04:10 PM
Your BigY data should be helpful in resolving more recent issues about DF17 in Ireland, compared with DF17 elsewhere.

I expect we'll find a bunch of new DF17 guys from the M-343 and DF27 SNP packs. But that remains to be seen.

Connell Warrior
01-03-2016, 05:25 PM
Your BigY data should be helpful in resolving more recent issues about DF17 in Ireland, compared with DF17 elsewhere.

I expect we'll find a bunch of new DF17 guys from the M-343 and DF27 SNP packs. But that remains to be seen.
Well I'm now on Big Y, at the moment with Durkin and Meehan although it says not finalised.

Connell Warrior
01-17-2016, 01:51 PM
I am also now on the list exactly with Meehan and Durkin, I have been in touch with both, I submitted my results to Y Full last week so I'm waiting to see what they come up with, it should be interesting!


That is the page. You will notice that at the top of the block for the three Irish gents and the Scot are Burness, another Scot, and the two 1K Genomes kits. One is Puerto Rican and the other Italian. These two are anonymous. If you look at YFull's tree you will find these three kits as well, with a TMRCA listed as 2300 ybp. This is around 285 b.c. On Alex's tree you will see the German, Menge shares a few snps with these three. Then under him Durkin and Meehan share a large number of private snps, then under them you have Mulvihill and McDonald, the Scot. I am thinking you might cluster some where in this group. You won't know for sure until your results come back in, of course. But because of YFull's analysis, you know this line starts around 285 b.c. in Europe, but because none of the rest have submitted results to Yfull, you have no idea about dates below. If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.

Connell Warrior
02-14-2016, 02:49 PM
I have just got my initial Y Full results they are saying I am R-FGC14124

Vertor
02-16-2016, 06:21 PM
I have just got my initial Y Full results they are saying I am R-FGC14124

Which leaves me still isolated on R-FGC14126* I was hoping for some company after the holiday sale on the Big-Y test.

Connell Warrior
02-17-2016, 07:26 PM
Sorry Vertor, I couldn't help it!

Connell Warrior
03-09-2016, 12:39 PM
Hello Mike,
We certainly have a date now on Y Full for yourself and me after more of my results came through. Its saying that we are in a new subclade now R-M428. Its giving an age of 680 years, rounded to 700 but then states 950 years based on our samples, this is about right for just before surnames started. I showed my wife your profile photo on FT DNA and she thought we had a similar shaped face and hairline after all those years!
This is starting to get interesting!
Paul

Hi Dick,

I've downloaded my BAM file from FTDNA and I'll upload to YFull shortly.

I am very interested to see if there is a reasonable estimate for TMRCA. I would love to know at what point in history DF17 entered into Ireland.

-Mike Durkin

qallezan65
06-13-2021, 06:36 PM
Which leaves me still isolated on R-FGC14126* I was hoping for some company after the holiday sale on the Big-Y test.

I know this thread is kind of old, but a few months ago my father got his Big Y results and we fall under R-FGC14126. If you look at YFull, we now form our own subclade (R-Y48060). My father’s from Cuba, but his great-grandfather was from Galicia, Spain. I imagine that our connection is ancient, but I find it interesting that my father ended up in a subclade which mostly has samples from the UK.

Dubhthach
06-16-2021, 11:35 AM
I know this thread is kind of old, but a few months ago my father got his Big Y results and we fall under R-FGC14126. If you look at YFull, we now form our own subclade (R-Y48060). My father’s from Cuba, but his great-grandfather was from Galicia, Spain. I imagine that our connection is ancient, but I find it interesting that my father ended up in a subclade which mostly has samples from the UK.

Sail directly north from Galicia and you hit Ireland. Leaving that aside 2000 years ago the local languages on both ends were close relatives of each other.

qallezan65
06-16-2021, 03:53 PM
Sail directly north from Galicia and you hit Ireland. Leaving that aside 2000 years ago the local languages on both ends were close relatives of each other.

That's true. I've also read about Celtic Briton settlements in northwestern Spain after the Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain, although those migrations occurred around 1500 years after my male line diverged from Vertor's.

alejandromb92
06-16-2021, 04:00 PM
That's true. I've also read about Celtic Briton settlements in northwestern Spain after the Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain, although those migrations occurred around 1500 years after my male line diverged from Vertor's.

Indeed, but i think most of them were L21 and not DF27.