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Cinnamon orange
09-01-2015, 10:35 AM
I have bitten the bullet and paid for another ancestry.com subscription and have begun to tackle my mothers maternal side.

I knew from childhood that my grandmothers side was English and Welsh. Her mother's side was half English and Welsh and her father English, all recent immigrants.
My great grandmother Jane Haswell was born in PA but her father Henry Haswell was from England and her mother Sarah from Wales.

I did not know where in England Henry Haswell was from but surmised Durham due to a town called Haswell there as well as a thriving coal industry, much like the one they found in PA. Haswell turned up from online searches to not be uncommon in the region and I was pretty satisfied that that side was all English coal miners for generations. All I could trace in available US census records, marriage cents etc was England.

Then the miracle of UK records via ancestry.com and I have found English/Scottish Borders surnames, a ship wright Robert Wallace living in New Castle on Tyne from Scotland, and now yesterday the name MacClean/McClain, in various spellings in the records.

The MacCleans were catholic, and were in New Castle in the late 1600's. I have found in browsing records, various MacCleans coming from Ireland to New Castle through the 1700's, (not all related to me.) but a definite flow of people from Ireland to there not only with that surname but other Scottish surnames coming from Irleand to New Castle. I am wondering whether my MacCleans came from Scotland with a way station in Ireland before going to New Castle. McClean seems to be present, in counties, Derry, Antrim and Donegal.

There were two groups of Scottish in Ireland it seems before the plantations and larger migration from primarily the lowlands. Highlanders came in the 13/14 centuries and were called in English Gallowglass from an attempted phonetic rendering of the Gaelic and then later Red Shanks. They were both mercenaries. According to the Internet, the Gallowglass settled down in Ireland and the Red Shanks did not. But some sources say some Red Shanks did and Donegal and Antrim were two places listed for that. They differed from the later Scots settlers by often being catholic and speaking Gaelic vs Scots. To clarify not all were catholic though some were Protestant but it seems many were catholic.

This is a rough summary with what I have learned over the past two days via the Internet, treasure chest of truth that it always is :)

Anyway, I am pleased to have discovered another Scottish connection and a highland one at that.
I am in the process of trying to place my MacCleans and based on other MacClains/Cleans etc that followed, that may be the Emerald Isle.

Anyone else with a similar family story or guess as I should say in my case?

Anyone have information on Scottish catholic mercenaries in Ireland?

I have just begun my research and would be appreciative of any help.

Brian Huvane
09-02-2015, 07:10 PM
I have bitten the bullet and paid for another ancestry.com subscription and have begun to tackle my mothers maternal side.

I knew from childhood that my grandmothers side was English and Welsh. Her mother's side was half English and Welsh and her father English, all recent immigrants.
My great grandmother Jane Haswell was born in PA but her father Henry Haswell was from England and her mother Sarah from Wales.

I did not know where in England Henry Haswell was from but surmised Durham due to a town called Haswell there as well as a thriving coal industry, much like the one they found in PA. Haswell turned up from online searches to not be uncommon in the region and I was pretty satisfied that that side was all English coal miners for generations. All I could trace in available US census records, marriage cents etc was England.

Then the miracle of UK records via ancestry.com and I have found English/Scottish Borders surnames, a ship wright Robert Wallace living in New Castle on Tyne from Scotland, and now yesterday the name MacClean/McClain, in various spellings in the records.

The MacCleans were catholic, and were in New Castle in the late 1600's. I have found in browsing records, various MacCleans coming from Ireland to New Castle through the 1700's, (not all related to me.) but a definite flow of people from Ireland to there not only with that surname but other Scottish surnames coming from Irleand to New Castle. I am wondering whether my MacCleans came from Scotland with a way station in Ireland before going to New Castle. McClean seems to be present, in counties, Derry, Antrim and Donegal.

There were two groups of Scottish in Ireland it seems before the plantations and larger migration from primarily the lowlands. Highlanders came in the 13/14 centuries and were called in English Gallowglass from an attempted phonetic rendering of the Gaelic and then later Red Shanks. They were both mercenaries. According to the Internet, the Gallowglass settled down in Ireland and the Red Shanks did not. But some sources say some Red Shanks did and Donegal and Antrim were two places listed for that. They differed from the later Scots settlers by often being catholic and speaking Gaelic vs Scots. To clarify not all were catholic though some were Protestant but it seems many were catholic.

This is a rough summary with what I have learned over the past two days via the Internet, treasure chest of truth that it always is :)

Anyway, I am pleased to have discovered another Scottish connection and a highland one at that.
I am in the process of trying to place my MacCleans and based on other MacClains/Cleans etc that followed, that may be the Emerald Isle.

Anyone else with a similar family story or guess as I should say in my case?

Anyone have information on Scottish catholic mercenaries in Ireland?

I have just begun my research and would be appreciative of any help.




Any Gallowglass that went to Ireland in the 13/14 /15 Centuries were Catholic, as were the vast majority of Europeans, if only because this was before the Reformation. I believe that the Gallowglass that went to Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries continued to be very heavily Catholic since they came from area of Scotland that were heavily Catholic at that time (i.e. the Isles and Highlands) and were brought in by Catholic Irish clans, but I could be mistaken.

Cinnamon orange
09-03-2015, 08:53 AM
Thanks, that is what I read as well. The later Gallowglass seem to be called RedShanks but probably both terms were used.

Dave-V
09-03-2015, 06:59 PM
At least one group of Scottish McClain/McLain etc are R1b-L21-L513 and very active in their research; you can search through the forum messages for some of their backstory (probably need to search all permutations of the name!).

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/conversations/messages

That set of McClains are part of a "superfamily" of male descendants of various surnames from a common ancestor most likely in Scotland who seems to have lived just before or right when surnames were adopted.

Don't know if it relates to your connection but those McClain researchers might be able to point you to more information.

Dave

Cinnamon orange
09-04-2015, 08:06 PM
Thanks!

11-18-2015, 01:26 AM
Hi. May I know what your Haplogroup is? I ask because, I am an I1. I do not know the origins of my line, before 1726, where my earliest known ancestor is found on a tax roll. Nothing is known about his parents, nor, place of birth. After I learned of my Haplogroup, I joined the Montgomery DNA Project. I became disappointed when I learned that, though there are now over 370 members in the project, there are only 11 I1 Montgomerys. So, I have been trying to learn when an earlier ancestor adopted the Montgomery surname, &, where & why. So, I have been searching for clan/families in search for a connection to Haplogroup I1.

Baltimore1937
11-18-2015, 02:40 AM
Misc: Montgomery/-ie came from Normandy, didn't it.

I've been pushing a maternal line back and stumbled on a Scotch connection. But it probably really means a Norman connection. Mary Clarissa de Bruce/Brus, born 1255 in Scotland. Her father was Robert de Bruce, born in 1210.

Baltimore1937
11-20-2015, 08:20 PM
Misc: Montgomery/-ie came from Normandy, didn't it.

I've been pushing a maternal line back and stumbled on a Scotch connection. But it probably really means a Norman connection. Mary Clarissa de Bruce/Brus, born 1255 in Scotland. Her father was Robert de Bruce, born in 1210.

The Bruce direct male line may go back to the Norwegians of Orkney. The references get a little vague back there. I'll peek at it again later.

Baltimore1937
11-25-2015, 04:20 AM
The Bruce direct male line may go back to the Norwegians of Orkney. The references get a little vague back there. I'll peek at it again later.

Well, I pushed it back 2 more generations. The first Robert de Brus was born 1030 in Normandy. He was a knight with William-the-Conqueror. Briefly looking at his father, which I haven't copied yet, he apparently came from the Orkneys. Or maybe his father did. But I noticed in passing that Robert's father possibly married a Slav! But other trees don't show that. The Danish royal house back then had a long standing connection to Poles & etc.

castle3
11-25-2015, 07:27 AM
I've studied the Brus line who were domiciled in Cleveland, England & other Yorkshire towns/villages.. It was from those sources that the Scottish Bruses descended. Their pre-Norman roots were almost certainly Flemish. I traced branches of the Brus line to Cumbria in the 12th C. Yet again, they were rubbing shoulders with Flemings. The shrievalty of Cumberland for much of the 13th C were Flemings. A case in point: one of the sheriffs was named Hollebek. There is a Hellebecq in what was once in ancient Flanders; it isn't far from Enghien. D'Engien is another name that appears in Cumbrian charters. Trivieres is another name found in Cumbrian docs. Trivieres is an old Flanders village. The Veteripont surname seems to stem originally from Wattripont, Flanders. However, most just point to the Norman later version as the source! Beryl Platts noted the similarities between the Blue Lion of Bruges emblem & the Brus's design. She was one of the first to note the pre-Norman links to Flanders for many families. Many of the Cumbrian hierarchy had names which some claim were via Normandy, yet further investigation shows earlier links to towns/villages in Flanders. It should be noted that parts of north-east France were once part of Flanders - Lille being a prime example.

Cascio
11-25-2015, 08:55 AM
Also, many "Norman" families who moved to Scotland at royal request were ultimately Flemish, as was Matilda, wife of William the Conqueror.

castle3
11-25-2015, 09:06 AM
Indeed. The Norman-Fleming connection led to many Flemings eventually moving to dozens of Northamptonshire & Bedfordshire villages. Many of these Flemings moved north when David I left the region to claim the Scottish crown. They were encouraged to marry their own kind as they could be disenfranchised if they wed outside their own class. Inter-Flemish marriages were rife, hence the importance of seeing Bruses together with Flemings in various English & Scottish counties. Many of these families proudly bore the rampant lion of Flanders, ultimately used by the Scottish monarchy.

Baltimore1937
11-25-2015, 10:20 PM
The trees shown at Ancestry are rather vague and conflicting. And I'm not all that interested in investigating it way back there. This is just the end of a series off offshoots in my tree (maternal side), starting with the Calverts and their connections in colonial Maryland.

Rognvald BrussesonBrus (or etc) apparently married two different wives. The first Felicia de Normandie may have been a sister of William-the-Conqueror. She is in my line. And she is sometimes given as dying in Flanders. His second wife was Arlogia Vladimirovna of Orkney. She stems from a Czar in Kiev.

castle3
11-25-2015, 10:45 PM
I don't have the time at present to check out the hypothesis, but generally I'd suggest taking Ancestry trees with a large pinch of salt - unless backed by fully referenced work. By that I mean information gleaned from cartularies etc and not hearsay.

Baltimore1937
11-27-2015, 12:04 AM
The trees shown at Ancestry are rather vague and conflicting. And I'm not all that interested in investigating it way back there. This is just the end of a series off offshoots in my tree (maternal side), starting with the Calverts and their connections in colonial Maryland.

Rognvald BrussesonBrus (or etc) apparently married two different wives. The first Felicia de Normandie may have been a sister of William-the-Conqueror. She is in my line. And she is sometimes given as dying in Flanders. His second wife was Arlogia Vladimirovna of Orkney. She stems from a Czar in Kiev.

I have, at least until I see convincing evidence to the contrary, merged Felicia with Arlogia. It seems to agree with majority opinion. So, that means I am descended from Byzantine Emperors, to go along with Kings and Queens, et al. Ha ha!

Baltimore1937
12-02-2015, 03:51 AM
I have, at least until I see convincing evidence to the contrary, merged Felicia with Arlogia. It seems to agree with majority opinion. So, that means I am descended from Byzantine Emperors, to go along with Kings and Queens, et al. Ha ha!

Looking a little bit closer, Felicia Arlogia is a connection, via her mother, to the "Macedonian" Dynasty line of Byzantine emperors.

Baltimore1937
12-08-2015, 06:45 AM
Looking a little bit closer, Felicia Arlogia is a connection, via her mother, to the "Macedonian" Dynasty line of Byzantine emperors.

I pushed this branch back to the brother/half-brother of Rollo de Normandie!

redeyednewt
05-14-2018, 07:15 PM
I don't have the time at present to check out the hypothesis, but generally I'd suggest taking Ancestry trees with a large pinch of salt - unless backed by fully referenced work. By that I mean information gleaned from cartularies etc and not hearsay.

Agreed, unless you actually have the documentation, or see it on someone's ancestry tree, take it with a ton of salt.

Baltimore1937
05-17-2018, 07:16 PM
Well, ignoring all my gabbing previously, and which I have largely forgotten, my U5b2b2 seems to go back to Scotland at some distant point in time prior to colonial USA. I wouldn't be surprised if it came with the Norse to Scotland and Ireland. But thus far, I can trace records, in my direct maternal line, back only to 1816 or so in Indiana, ha ha.

JerryS.
05-17-2018, 10:42 PM
I was able to trace my one Scottish relative or least my one known Scottish relative Leonidas Andrews from Illinois to Prince Edwards Island Canada to Scotland that's as far as I was able to go. I just thought it was neat that his first name was Leonidas