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kinman
09-01-2015, 04:55 PM
Hi All,

I am looking for some feedback on my present views about the who, where, and when of horse domestication, and when some of those horse domesticators spread west (along with their proto-Indo-European language). It also attempts to briefly explain the present-day distributions of the haplogroups involved. I welcome any feedback, whether for or against any parts of the following summary.

Haplogroup R-M269 arose about 14,000 years ago, probably in Kazakhstan. After a long period of time (over 7,000 years later) and after about 83 additional SNP mutations, the L23 mutation would finally occur (as would the mutation giving rise to its brother clade, PF7558/PF7562). Therefore R-L23 originated about 6800 years ago, probably in or near western Kazakhstan (in the vicinity of either the Ural River or Volga River). And about two centuries later (6600 years ago), it gave rise to R-L51 (as well as its brother clade R-Z2103).

The horse was probably domesticated about 6500 years ago by members of R-L51 (and/or their relatives in Z2103 or PF7558/PF7562), and they would have been speaking an archaic Proto-Indo-European language around this time. Although their language would spread west (along with them, their descendants, and their horses), horse domestication would also spread east to the Botai Culture and beyond (but that could have happened decades or even centuries after they were first domesticated a little further west). Domestication of horses was probably initially done for their milk and meat, followed by breeding, and then for riding as well. And even riding may not have initially involved bitting that would leave traces on the teeth of the horses. So genetic evidence (especially of the domesticators) will be a better indicator of when domestication began.

Most members of Z2103 (brother clade of L51), would stay in this area north of the Caspian Sea (and some spread down to areas around the Caspian Sea). However, a few of them did go west with their L51 relatives to the Black Sea area (southern Ukraine) and eventually to the lower Danube River. Some members of PF7558/PF7562 (brother clade of L23) also went west with them, as far as the lower Danube area (Romania to Albania, and later spread east to Turkey as well). As for when they had settled in southern Ukraine, it was perhaps by 6000 years ago, and L51 probably gave rise to L11 (L151) about that time. Some descendants of L51 (L-11, U106, P312, etc.) would continue expanding up the Danube River corridor and beyond (and quickly multiplied), along with some members of Z2103. Other members of Z2103 stayed near the lower Danube with their PF7558/PF7562 relatives, and would also spread east with them into Turkey.

It is not entirely clear why R-L51 descendants (L-11, P312, etc.) would come to be so numerous and widespread across Europe (compared to the relatives who accompanied L51 west to the lower Danube). Perhaps greater numbers at the start of their westward expansion, and/or more leadership skills and aggresiveness. Once in a leadership role, it would tend to make it easier to have more sons and lower infant mortality. Leaders were probably more likely to have multiple wives and thus many more children (not to mention "having their way" with local women in newly conquered territories in western Europe). But their success probably mainly resulted from L51 (and/or their close relatives) being the first domesticators of horses.

-----------Ken Kinman

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kinman
09-02-2015, 09:02 PM
Continued from my first post above:

R-L51 and relatives had presumably been part of the Samara Culture, which then evolved into the Khvalynsk Culture. If they moved west towards Ukraine about 6000-6200 years ago, I assume this would make them part of Kurgan Wave 1. The earliest part of the Yamna Culture (Sredny Stog II) would have begun about this time. It was probably in southern Ukraine that R-L51 gave rise to R-L11 (L151). Kurgan Wave 2 (about 5500 years ago) would have taken them (and their relatives) into the lower Danube River area (present-day Romania and Bulgaria). Of course, they took their Yamna Culture, Indo-European language, and horses with them. Remains of their chestnut-colored (definitely domesticated) horses have been found in Romania (dated at about 5000 years ago). It was perhaps in the area of Hungary that R-L11 gave rise to R-P312 about 5200 years ago. This is perhaps where the Italic and Celtic languages split (those in the Italic branch going south of the Alps to Italy, and the Celtic branch continuing north and west along the Danube River Valley.
------------Ken Kinman
P.S. I forgot to mention in my first post, another reason R-L51 and their descendants may have been so successful in Europe is the tendency of R1b men to have more sons than daughters (a trait they have continued to pass down to their male descendants).

kinman
09-05-2015, 02:27 AM
Hi all,
In my second post (#3), I suggested that it was perhaps in the area of Hungary that the Italic and Celtic languages may have split. However, now that I have looked closer at that particular issue, that suggestion was wrong. It seems that the split happened later, and that the speakers of a proto-Italic language probably entered Italy from the north, not from the east. My apologies.
--------------Ken

Generalissimo
09-05-2015, 02:32 AM
Horses were first domesticated by R1a Sredny Stog people IMO.

kinman
09-05-2015, 03:37 AM
Horses were first domesticated by R1a Sredny Stog people IMO.

Thanks for the feedback,
My understanding is that Sredny Stog I was neither R1a or R1b. The slightly later Sredny Stog II (which would have had domesticate horses) could have contained both R1a and R1b members, so I am not trying to take sides and make the R1a people mad at me.
In any case, whether horse domestication was by both R1a or R1b or just one of them alone (and then shared between those two groups), I still strongly believe that they first domesticated horses in or near western Kazakhstan. Then horse domestication could have spread east to central Kaxakhstan (Botai Culture) and beyond. It also spread west to Sredny Stog II. At least this seems to me more likely than Sredny Stog II being the origin and spreading much further to the east to central Kazakstan and beyond. I guess one could argue it both ways, so I can certainly understand your position on this.
Anyway, I think that we can definitely agree that the Botai Culture (which may have been neither R1a nor R1b) probably should not be given credit for first domesticating the horse. It may have been decades or even centuries after the first domestication of the horse that the Botai adopted horse domestication from further west.
----------Ken

Generalissimo
09-05-2015, 03:47 AM
Thanks for the feedback,
My understanding is that Sredny Stog I was neither R1a or R1b. The slightly later Sredny Stog II (which would have had domesticate horses) could have contained both R1a and R1b members, so I am not trying to take sides and make the R1a people mad at me.
In any case, whether horse domestication was by both R1a or R1b or just one of them alone (and then shared between those two groups), I still strongly believe that they first domesticated horses in or near western Kazakhstan. Then horse domestication could have spread east to central Kaxakhstan (Botai Culture) and beyond. It also spread west to Sredny Stog II. At least this seems to me more likely than Sredny Stog II being the origin and spreading much further to the east to central Kazakstan and beyond. I guess one could argue it both ways, so I can certainly understand your position on this.
Anyway, I think that we can definitely agree that the Botai Culture (which may have been neither R1a nor R1b) probably should not be given credit for first domesticating the horse. It may have been decades or even centuries after the first domestication of the horse that the Botai adopted horse domestication from further west.
----------Ken

Some of the earliest Corded pottery and horse bits, like those that later spread with R1a groups across Eurasia, are found here...

Dereivka site, Sredny Stog (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Dereivka+Indo-European&source=bl&ots=wWnZ-188dE&sig=nSbmj8FVJ_3vIpifUqIDq96vqhc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBGoVChMIneCOsf3exwIVJBymCh0UsgUV#v=on epage&q=Dereivka%20Indo-European&f=false)

Generalissimo
09-05-2015, 03:54 AM
Horse, Wheel, Language tackled this issue...

Link (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=Dereivka+Indo-European&source=bl&ots=2Z6YrPLMRy&sig=q4xHI8WyFhNzI5ydkGETUWOqmOc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC4Q6AEwA2oVChMIneCOsf3exwIVJBymCh0UsgUV#v=on epage&q=Dereivka%20Indo-European&f=false)

ADW_1981
09-05-2015, 04:11 AM
With so much focus on the YDNA and autosomal mixture of Yamnaya in the Allentoft and Haak paper, does anyone recollect if there was any evidence of horse domestication from any of these graves? The only thing I recall is that the men were getting their heads bashed in and there was evidence of extreme violence in their deaths.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2015, 04:27 AM
Outside Anthony's book, the concensus is that the evidnece for horse domestication is still equivocal. Certainly, it was hunted and eaten, and incipient domestication for its traction and Milk is possible. Whether it was ridden or not is a different question. Sure, some early experimentation was likely. But it was far from an efficient war weapon. Not until after 2000 BC was it used for drawing chariots, and the stereotypical image of horseback cavalry dos not develop untill c. 900 BC.

If, c.4000-3000 BC it had been domesticated anywhere, it'd have been at Botai, with the masive horse bones far overshadowing anything further west. Is this R1b territory ? This is of lesser importance, IMO.

kinman
09-05-2015, 04:54 AM
It is my understanding that the original dating for the Dereivka site was incorrect, and that not long ago those artifacts were redated and found to be more recent than originally thought. It was apparently not nearly as early as the earlier Botai horse bits in Kazakhstan or earlier Corded pottery elsewhere in Europe. I will have to check my source about that unfortunate error in the literature.
--------------Ken


Some of the earliest Corded pottery and horse bits, like those that later spread with R1a groups across Eurasia, are found here...

Dereivka site, Sredny Stog (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Dereivka+Indo-European&source=bl&ots=wWnZ-188dE&sig=nSbmj8FVJ_3vIpifUqIDq96vqhc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBGoVChMIneCOsf3exwIVJBymCh0UsgUV#v=on epage&q=Dereivka%20Indo-European&f=false)

Silesian
09-05-2015, 05:32 AM
Hi All,

I am looking for some feedback on my present views about the who, where, and when of horse domestication, and when some of those horse domesticators spread west (along with their proto-Indo-European language). It also attempts to briefly explain the present-day distributions of the haplogroups involved. I welcome any feedback, whether for or against any parts of the following summary. .................
-----------Ken Kinman

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Wow, great post. It just happens that the subject also caught my fancy.
As a primer, I would encourage you to watch these two excellent -thought enriching videos by experts, with crucial information about the region in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QapUGZ0ObjA

A few points, to consider. In relation to M269 and M73 split could fit with the time frame of Kapova Cave region. Just a wild guess/hunch as to the age of R1b in the region.
Of course ridiculously good-looking Sintashta boys take the cake/prize developing a more modern type lightweight agile-warfare chariot/horse combination[2000-B.C+/-].
However before the Sintashta chariots there was the horse and use of "Ochre" and "horses", in connection with Yamnaya and or horse-human burial-wagon[canvass?] burial; going back in antiquity in the region[Botai-Samara]. Photographs of the paintings of Kapova Cave 12,500B.C.+/- around the region Botai-Samara region.
http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/kapova-cave-paintings.htm
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/22/1360
http://kas.mfvsegei.ru/poeziya/kaban_800.jpg
Some questions.
Oldest known burial with horse? Oldest known use of Ochre horse painting in Steppes? Oldest use of Ochre and wagon burial in the Steppes.?
I don't know how good this link is. But it's worth a go to try and discover knew information!
http://povolzie.archeologia.ru/16.htm
https://translate.google.com/

On the frontal bones of the skull of one of the lay buried bone figurine of a horse

Silesian
09-05-2015, 02:30 PM
Regional breakdown around cave.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/bashkirs.html
5818
Burzyansky District 83%

kinman
09-05-2015, 02:54 PM
I just relocated my source indicating that the horse teeth at Derelvka were redated by Anthony to a later time frame. It is Post No. 460 in the thread "R1b and its sibling R1a possible route(s) into Europe". You can read the whole post there, but the relevant parts are as follows:
"In connection with the above, an email from Anthony to Dienekes"... "The bit-worn horse teeth at Dereivka were re-dated to 700-200 BCE by me, the same person who identified the bit wear, but the article in which I announced the re-dating of the Dereivka teeth also described the evidence from Botai and Khvalynsk."
I haven't yet had time to find the particular article in which Anthony announced the redating of the horse teeth at Derelvka.
--------------Ken


Some of the earliest Corded pottery and horse bits, like those that later spread with R1a groups across Eurasia, are found here...

Dereivka site, Sredny Stog (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Dereivka+Indo-European&source=bl&ots=wWnZ-188dE&sig=nSbmj8FVJ_3vIpifUqIDq96vqhc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBGoVChMIneCOsf3exwIVJBymCh0UsgUV#v=on epage&q=Dereivka%20Indo-European&f=false)

alan
09-05-2015, 03:29 PM
Certainly it is hard to believe that the ability of beaker people to move around isnt partly connected to horses - especially after 2550BC when beaker is suddenly all over Europe. The horse would have cut travel time in 5 for fast single day journeys and probably in 2 or 3 for longer steady journeys and allowed networks to work far better.

George
09-05-2015, 03:50 PM
It is my understanding that the original dating for the Dereivka site was incorrect, and that not long ago those artifacts were redated and found to be more recent than originally thought. It was apparently not nearly as early as the earlier Botai horse bits in Kazakhstan or earlier Corded pottery elsewhere in Europe. I will have to check my source about that unfortunate error in the literature.
--------------Ken

As far as I remember there was a problem with the teeth, but not with the bits. They are indeed quite pristine. And I think that Anthony definitely ruled out Botai as the original spot. It all started "further West". Serednyj Stih is still the prime candidate, for what it's worth. But we are also patiently waiting for some Y DNA from it.

kinman
09-05-2015, 08:19 PM
Thanks for the information and weblinks. I certainly agree that the Kapova Cave paintings are at the right place and the right time to be associated with R-P297, and also around the time that they gave rise to M269 and M73. I guess I should find time to read more about the Bashkirs, their way of life, and especially about their horses. I was reading that Bashkir horses have fairly long winter coats and that their hair can be woven into cloth. That and the copious amounts of milk produced by the mares would certainly have helped our ancestors survive during the harsh winter months.
However, we still have the big unanswered question----were horses first domesticated in this general area (of the Ural and Volga Rivers), and horse domestication then spread down to the Black Sea area? Or was it vice versa? Until we have more data, I guess that debate could go on for many years.
----------------Ken


Regional breakdown around cave.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/bashkirs.html
5818
Burzyansky District 83%

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2015, 09:19 PM
Certainly it is hard to believe that the ability of beaker people to move around isnt partly connected to horses - especially after 2550BC when beaker is suddenly all over Europe. The horse would have cut travel time in 5 for fast single day journeys and probably in 2 or 3 for longer steady journeys and allowed networks to work far better.


It's certainly possible. But is there any hard evidence?
But Id agree at most it was used at best for logistical purposes at this early time

kinman
10-06-2015, 02:27 AM
Hi all,
We already know that the gene for Lactase Persistence (the opposite of Lactose Intolerance) is most frequent in R1b (and second most frequent in R1a). But what surprised me is that horse milk is quite a bit higher in Vitamin C than milk from cows and goats, etc. This would have been a great health advantage for the R1b once they began taming (and then domesticating) horses on the eastern steppes around western Kazakhstan. As I have already suggested, milking capture mares may have begun the whole process of taming and domestication of horses in western Kazakhstan (or nearby), not to mention a supply of meat during harsh winters.
The lack of Vitamin C on the steppes (leading to moderate or even severe, and thus deadly, cases of scurvy) may have been at least one reason R1b populations were so very low between 14,000 and 7,000 years ago (no known living side branches between M269 and L23). A late population of R-M269 in Kazakhstan could have accidentally begun the process of reducing the scurvy threat when they began capturing mares for milk. If this began about 7,000 years ago, it may have contributed to the future success of their most important son (the original R-L23 man) who I estimate was born about 6800 years ago. And taming may have lead to actual breeding of horses about that same time.
The health of the R1b population in western Kazakhstan (and adjacent areas) could have improved so much that their population began to climb rapidly, and their healthier children became taller, stronger, and also more energetic and adventurous than their ancestors. That would have set the stage for their spread west to Ukraine (Kurgan Wave 1 about 6200 years ago). The domestication of the horse not only made them more mobile, but more energetic and healthy. As lactose intolerance dropped dramatically, health and life span (as well as mobility) increased, and most importantly, populations to the west did NOT have these advantages.
Couple that with the increasing genetic tendency to produce more sons than daughters, R1b had advantages of several kinds that would almost assure their successful expansion over the coming centuries. And with the great drought in Europe starting around 5300 years ago, R1b (and to a lesser extent R1a) had even more advantages (since they were not dependent on farming). AND ALMOST ALL of these advantages are mainly due to their taming and domestication of the horse. By 5200 years ago, a drought starved and scattered European population would have been very vulnerable to the Kurgan expansion up the Danube (as well as U106 going north and west of the Carpathian mountains and helping to found Corded Ware and the proto-Germanic language).
-------------Ken
P.S. Anyway, the often criticized hypotheses about calcium and Vitamin D being mainly involved may be somewhat valid. It seems more likely to me that Vitamin C was probably even more of a factor.

Generalissimo
10-06-2015, 02:48 AM
Hi all,
We already know that the gene for Lactase Persistence (the opposite of Lactose Intolerance) is most frequent in R1b (and second most frequent in R1a). But what surprised me is that horse milk is quite a bit higher in Vitamin C than milk from cows and goats, etc. This would have been a great health advantage for the R1b once they began taming (and then domesticating) horses on the eastern steppes around western Kazakhstan. As I have already suggested, milking capture mares may have begun the whole process of taming and domestication of horses in western Kazakhstan (or nearby), not to mention a supply of meat during harsh winters.
The lack of Vitamin C on the steppes (leading to moderate or even severe, and thus deadly, cases of scurvy) may have been at least one reason R1b populations were so very low between 14,000 and 7,000 years ago (no known living side branches between M269 and L23). A late population of R-M269 in Kazakhstan could have accidentally begun the process of reducing the scurvy threat when they began capturing mares for milk. If this began about 7,000 years ago, it may have contributed to the future success of their most important son (the original R-L23 man) who I estimate was born about 6800 years ago. And taming may have lead to actual breeding of horses about that same time.
The health of the R1b population in western Kazakhstan (and adjacent areas) could have improved so much that their population began to climb rapidly, and their healthier children became taller, stronger, and also more energetic and adventurous than their ancestors. That would have set the stage for their spread west to Ukraine (Kurgan Wave 1 about 6200 years ago). The domestication of the horse not only made them more mobile, but more energetic and healthy. As lactose intolerance dropped dramatically, health and life span (as well as mobility) increased, and most importantly, populations to the west did NOT have these advantages.
Couple that with the increasing genetic tendency to produce more sons than daughters, R1b had advantages of several kinds that would almost assure their successful expansion over the coming centuries. And with the great drought in Europe starting around 5300 years ago, R1b (and to a lesser extent R1a) had even more advantages (since they were not dependent on farming). AND ALMOST ALL of these advantages are mainly due to their taming and domestication of the horse. By 5200 years ago, a drought starved and scattered European population would have been very vulnerable to the Kurgan expansion up the Danube (as well as U106 going north and west of the Carpathian mountains and helping to found Corded Ware and the proto-Germanic language).
-------------Ken
P.S. Anyway, the often criticized hypotheses about calcium and Vitamin D being mainly involved may be somewhat valid. It seems more likely to me that Vitamin C was probably even more of a factor.

Not really, because...

- Lactase Persistence wasn't common anywhere until at least the late Early Bronze Age in Central and Western Europe.

- The true horse worshiping cultures appear on the Eurasian steppe along with lots of R1a from the late Early Bronze Age.

- The earliest U106 found to date comes from a Scandinavian sample which is quite different in terms of genome-wide genetic structure from Corded Ware Scandinavians (ie it's a lot less eastern).

kinman
10-06-2015, 04:13 AM
I don't know just how "common" Lactase Persistence might have been initially in Central Europe (much less Western Europe), but since it came in from the east, it would have taken a long time for the R1b men to have spread those genes into the population at large. Bell Beaker "Culture" probably spread relatively fast compared to the slower reproductive spread of Lactase Persistence genes. Is there a reliable source for claiming whether Lactase Persistence was or was not "common" in the earliest Bronze Age? And I have seen no evidence that R1a worshiped horses more than R1b.
As for Corded Ware, it was most likely a hybrid between R1a and R1b cultures (just as proto-Germanic probably was). It's not surprising that there is so much disagreement what language Germanic is closest to. In any case, the earliest R1a were certainly not Scandinavian, so we really need to find older R1a specimens from places like Poland.
------------Ken
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Not really, because...

- Lactase Persistence wasn't common anywhere until at least the late Early Bronze Age in Central and Western Europe.

- The true horse worshiping cultures appear on the Eurasian steppe along with lots of R1a from the late Early Bronze Age.

- The earliest U106 found to date comes from a Scandinavian sample which is quite different in terms of genome-wide genetic structure from Corded Ware Scandinavians (ie it's a lot less eastern).

Coldmountains
10-06-2015, 06:35 AM
I don't know just how "common" Lactase Persistence might have been initially in Central Europe (much less Western Europe), but since it came in from the east, it would have taken a long time for the R1b men to have spread those genes into the population at large. Bell Beaker "Culture" probably spread relatively fast compared to the slower reproductive spread of Lactase Persistence genes. Is there a reliable source for claiming whether Lactase Persistence was or was not "common" in the earliest Bronze Age? And I have seen no evidence that R1a worshiped horses more than R1b.
As for Corded Ware, it was most likely a hybrid between R1a and R1b cultures (just as proto-Germanic probably was). It's not surprising that there is so much disagreement what language Germanic is closest to. In any case, the earliest R1a were certainly not Scandinavian, so we really need to find older R1a specimens from places like Poland.
------------Ken
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The first true nomads in the strict sense were R1a Indo-Iranian folks prior to that we can just talk about semi-nomadic people in the steppe. The Chariot was an invention of Sintashta folks and so important for early Indo-Iranians that many of them had names linked to Chariot terms and it was essential for their rapid and quick expansion. Mounted armies played no significant role prior to them and war horses were just used by a elite prior to the rise of massive equestrian armies of Scythians/Sarmatians/Saka. Sintashta got his basic horse technologies directly or indirectly from Sredny Stog so it would be not surprising if they turn out to be R1a.

kinman
10-08-2015, 02:10 AM
Well, some R1a and R1b groups may have been true nomads at times and semi-nomadic at times, so I don't worry too much about the semantic difference. The important thing is that they both had young adventurous males willing to head west in search of what they hoped would be more exciting and offering a better future. Since their haplogroups and populations populations expanded relatively quickly in the long run, many of them were apparently successful. I don't worry much about chariots, because I am more interested in the earliest expansions from the eastern steppes to Ukraine. Any early battles would have been mostly riding in on horseback, fighting a quick battle, and then escaping on horseback. Four-wheeled wagons for hauling probably came well before chariots for battle.
As for lactase persistence, I believe R1b and their R1a relatives had relatively high lactase persistence genes at the time they began espanding west from the eastern steppe. And although some of their children probably married wives and husbands without any lactase persistence genes (and would produce lots of heterozygous children), the R1b and R1a adventurers would continue to hold their higher frequencies due to natural selection (to the present day). We really need to test ancient human remains in Ukraine and eastward into Kazakhstan to find out why most of Europe lacked the lactase persistence gene until about 3000 B.C.
--------------Ken


The first true nomads in the strict sense were R1a Indo-Iranian folks prior to that we can just talk about semi-nomadic people in the steppe. The Chariot was an invention of Sintashta folks and so important for early Indo-Iranians that many of them had names linked to Chariot terms and it was essential for their rapid and quick expansion. Mounted armies played no significant role prior to them and war horses were just used by a elite prior to the rise of massive equestrian armies of Scythians/Sarmatians/Saka. Sintashta got his basic horse technologies directly or indirectly from Sredny Stog so it would be not surprising if they turn out to be R1a.