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Znertu
09-08-2015, 08:21 PM
Hi all,

Some of you might know me from other forums. I'm Kurdish and I had my DNA tested several years back. A recent blog post by Mfa renewed my interest in finding out how much Armenian admixture amounts to.

How do I know I'm part Armo, and not something else?


I have a genetic pull towards Armenians.
A Turk whose mother I'm distantly related to, found out that he's partly Armenian descended through his maternal side. I have the same X-DNA as him, so my Armenian admixture most probably comes from my maternal side.
The region I'm from, Dęrsim, is known for having sheltered lots of Armenians. More specifically, the villages where my forefathers lived also had Armenians living there.
Some Armenian relatives in AF.
Often got the remark that I look Armo.
A great uncle of mine apparently had done research, and found out our tribe was part Armenian.


The problem is that different calculators give conflicting results. Regarding fst distances, sometimes Kurds are my closest match and sometimes Armenians. (and in a few cases, Turks)

I'll post all the notable results here, curious to see what ya'll have to say. I'll limit the fst distances to the top 5 to keep it tidy.

Dodecad K12b

1 Caucasus 43.79
2 Gedrosia 26.67
3 Southwest_Asian 11.76
4 Atlantic_Med 10.22
5 North_European 3.36
6 Northwest_African 1.46
7 Siberian 0.99
8 Southeast_Asian 0.97
9 East_African 0.51
10 South_Asian 0.27

Fst:
1 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 5.92
2 Kurd (Dodecad) 6.36
3 Iranian (Dodecad) 7.21
4 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 9.2
5 Iranians (Behar) 9.59

World9

1 Caucasus_Gedrosia 50.98
2 Southern 33
3 Atlantic_Baltic 10.79
4 South_Asian 3.03
5 Siberian 0.84
6 East_Asian 0.54
7 African 0.45
8 Amerindian 0.36

Fst:
1 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 2.72
2 Kurd (Dodecad) 3.04
3 Armenians (Yunusbayev) 4.69
4 Armenian (Dodecad) 5.29
5 Uzbekistan_Jews 5.29

Eurogenes_ANE K7

ANE 16.03%
ASE 3.40%
WHG-UHG 11.06%
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.24%
East_African 0.63%
ENF 68.63%

Dodecad V3

1 West_Asian 40.88
2 Mediterranean 25.09
3 Southwest_Asian 12.57
4 South_Asian 7.86
5 West_European 6.93
6 East_European 3.69
7 Northwest_African 1.19
8 Northeast_Asian 0.74
9 East_African 0.36
10 Southeast_Asian 0.27
11 Neo_African 0.21
12 Palaeo_African 0.18

Fst:
1 Kurd (Xing) 4.21
2 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 5.02
3 Kurd (Dodecad) 6
4 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 6.94
5 Turkish (Dodecad) 7.9

MDLP K=12

1 Caucasian 45.49
2 Paleo_Mediterranean 27.74
3 South_Central_Asian 6.46
4 Celto_Germanic 5.07
5 Altaic_Turkic 4.01
6 Iberian 2.79
7 Balto_Finnic 2.76
8 Uralic_Permic 2.37
9 Volga_Uralic 1.42
10 Paleo_Balkanic 1.27
11 Paleo_North_European 0.6

Fst:
1 TRK (Turk) 7.55
2 ARM (Armenian) 16.53
3 CPR (Cypriot) 20.12
4 ASHK (Ashkenazi) 22.23
5 SIC (Sicilian) 24.01

Eurogenes K13

1 West_Asian 37.87
2 East_Med 34.07
3 West_Med 10.02
4 North_Atlantic 5.32
5 South_Asian 5.29
6 Red_Sea 3.21
7 Baltic 1.72
8 Sub-Saharan 0.77
9 East_Asian 0.63
10 Amerindian 0.55
11 Siberian 0.55

Fst:
1 Armenian 4.68
2 Kurdish 6.89
3 Georgian_Jewish 7.26
4 Azeri 7.85
5 Assyrian 8.81

McDonald's
"Most likely fit is 43.3% (+- 0.0%) Mideast (all Iran)
and 56.7% (+- 0.0%) Mideast (all Caucasus Area)
which is 100% total Mideast

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Iranian= 0.433 Armenian= 0.567

This is somewhere in the Caucasus area. The American on the chromosomes
in small and weeak enough to be noise."

Humanist
09-08-2015, 08:30 PM
Hi all,

Some of you might know me from other forums. I'm Kurdish and I had my DNA tested several years back. A recent blog post by Mfa renewed my interest in finding out how much Armenian admixture amounts to.

How do I know I'm part Armo, and not something else?

What's up, Zert. Were you included in any of Dienekes' IBD runs from a few years back? If you had genuine Armenian admixture, it would have likely shown via the various IBD analyses.

Znertu
09-08-2015, 08:35 PM
What's up, Zert. Were you included in any of Dienekes' IBD runs from a few years back? If you had genuine Armenian admixture, it would have likely shown via the various IBD analyses.

Long time, Humanist. Are you talking about his runs wherein the individuals were sorted in different populations (pop)? I remember that I was in the Armenian pop back then. I'll try to find it if that's what you're talking about. I'm KRD002 in this blog post (http://corduene.blogspot.be/2015/08/revisiting-kurdish-autosomal-dna.html) by Mfa by the way, where I also appear to cluster a hair closer to Armenians, though he assessed my Armenian ancestry to be around 25-40%.

ZephyrousMandaru
09-08-2015, 10:05 PM
You have to be really careful about interpreting those FST distances produced by the Oracles, their values are sensitive to other factors besides differences in component percentages. The calculator effect could also make it appear as if you're closer or more distant to a population.

Znertu
09-08-2015, 11:16 PM
You have to be really careful about interpreting those FST distances produced by the Oracles, their values are sensitive to other factors besides differences in component percentages. The calculator effect could also make it appear as if you're closer or more distant to a population.

Yes, I was puzzled by the fst distances since they could differ so much. I figured there had to be something up with them.

I tried a simplistic approach of using certain specific components which are typically elevated among Kurds, compared to Armenians, to see how much I deviate from the average. For Dodecad V3, this worked quite well (61-67% Kurdish, depending on the component). Predictably then, for Eurogenes K13 I appeared more Armenian. (except for North Atlantic, which is strangely even higher than the Kurdish average)

DMXX
09-09-2015, 03:21 AM
Given the high degree of autosomal profile overlap between Kurds and Armenians (alongside Persians, Azeris etc.), it'd be pretty difficult to estimate it accurately based on these "global" calculators alone.

You could try using 4mix to get a more sensitive measure, or check out Kurd (the user here)'s various West-South Asian specific calculators (please see the auDNA section).

IBD is useful for qualitative confirmation of Armenian ancestry (e.g. ++++ Armenian segments vs. ++/+ Iranian, Turkish etc.), but your query here is quantitatively based, so I'm not sure it'll be of any use in giving you an actual percentage.

A very warm public welcome to the forum as well, brother. :)

Anabasis
09-09-2015, 05:37 AM
Hi all,

Some of you might know me from other forums. I'm Kurdish and I had my DNA tested several years back. A recent blog post by Mfa renewed my interest in finding out how much Armenian admixture amounts to.

How do I know I'm part Armo, and not something else?

...
This is somewhere in the Caucasus area. The American on the chromosomes
in small and weeak enough to be noise."[/I]

Hello, The dataset of Bahar or Yunusbayev which is used for Armenian stats of various Calculators have some problematics. I havent meet any Armenian results which even close to population average of Armenians stat. There might be several reasons for this.

1-) Due to calculator effects, there are deviations in pop averages or individual results.
2-) I think that Armenans in Yunusbayevs or Bahar's are actualy not Armenians of Armenia but probably Hemshin people who speak Armenian and genetically close to Lazs and Turk_trabzon like me.
3-) or Yunusbayevs and Bahar dataset are from a specific region in Armenia but does not represent south and west Armenians who are Armenians of Anatolia.

Third assumption seems more valid for me. I think that Armenian people have very wide genetic diversity due to its religious and missionary character of Apostolic Church. Thats why it might be hard to detect Armenian Ancestry over specific Armenian Autosomal results. FF matching or YDNA, XDNA mtDNA matching would be better for understanding such an Armenian ancestry.

Znertu
09-09-2015, 10:05 AM
I can't seem to refind the Dodecad run where I was placed among Armenians.

I'm DOD 834 by the way. In the FastIBD Analysis of Balkans and West Asia (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ld6WWBiWH__0ExipmI6Tre9-E9mNHsSYHWBwYzsosQ/edit#gid=2):

Iranian_D: -0.13
Armenian_D: -0.03
Turkish_D: 0.34
Kurd_D: 1.08
Assyrian_D: -0.45

Humanist
09-09-2015, 03:58 PM
I can't seem to refind the Dodecad run where I was placed among Armenians.

I'm DOD 834 by the way. In the FastIBD Analysis of Balkans and West Asia (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ld6WWBiWH__0ExipmI6Tre9-E9mNHsSYHWBwYzsosQ/edit#gid=2):

Iranian_D: -0.13
Armenian_D: -0.03
Turkish_D: 0.34
Kurd_D: 1.08
Assyrian_D: -0.45

If my memory of how to read that data is correct, in order of significance, that would be:

Kurd_D: 1.08
Turkish_D: 0.34
Armenian_D: -0.03
Iranian_D: -0.13
Assyrian_D: -0.45

So, perhaps you have more Anatolian Turkish than Armenian admixture?

Hanna
09-09-2015, 04:18 PM
This is what I got for that run:

Armenian_D 0.92
Turkish_D 0.17
Greek_D -1.19
Assyrian_D 0.01
Kurd_D -0.43
Iranian_D -1.32
Bulgarian_D 0.63
Romanian_D -1.89
Adygei 0.71
Georgians -0.1
Romanians_14 -1.02
Iranians_19 -0.78
Turks -0.23
Cypriots -0.78
Armenians_16 1.82
Kurds_ Y 0.37
Bulgarians_Y 0.57
Armenians_Y 0.99
Abkhasians_Y 1.77
North_Ossetians_Y -0.22

Humanist
09-09-2015, 04:30 PM
This is what I got for that run:

Armenian_D 0.92
Turkish_D 0.17
Greek_D -1.19
Assyrian_D 0.01
Kurd_D -0.43
Iranian_D -1.32
Bulgarian_D 0.63
Romanian_D -1.89
Adygei 0.71
Georgians -0.1
Romanians_14 -1.02
Iranians_19 -0.78
Turks -0.23
Cypriots -0.78
Armenians_16 1.82
Kurds_ Y 0.37
Bulgarians_Y 0.57
Armenians_Y 0.99
Abkhasians_Y 1.77
North_Ossetians_Y -0.22

Given what you have spoken about your background most of those values are not too surprising. However, the Bulgarian values appear rather significant (?). Do you have any known Bulgarian ancestors?

EDIT: Actually, maybe the values are not significant. Best to compare your values with those of other Turks. Perhaps those Bulgarian values are typical for most Turks.

Znertu
09-09-2015, 04:51 PM
If my memory of how to read that data is correct, in order of significance, that would be:

Kurd_D: 1.08
Turkish_D: 0.34
Armenian_D: -0.03
Iranian_D: -0.13
Assyrian_D: -0.45

So, perhaps you have more Anatolian Turkish than Armenian admixture?

Is there any way I can further look into this? It certainly doesn't fit with all the other stuff I know and listed above, but such a thing can be possible. Is it possible that Kurdish+Armenian can be mistaken for a pull towards Turks? Or perhaps that Kurdish+Turkish can be mistaken for a pull towards Armenian?

By the way, I found the run I was talking about: ChromoPainter/fineSTRUCTURE analysis of Balkans/West Asia
(http://dodecad.blogspot.be/2012/02/chromopainterfinestructure-analysis-of.html)

I'm in pop7, which is mainly Armenian, the only Kurd in that run to be so.


This is what I got for that run:


You must be Armenian then?

Humanist
09-09-2015, 04:57 PM
Is there any way I can further look into this?

On 23andMe, how many Armenian matches do you have on RF?

Hanna
09-09-2015, 06:35 PM
Given what you have spoken about your background most of those values are not too surprising. However, the Bulgarian values appear rather significant (?). Do you have any known Bulgarian ancestors?

EDIT: Actually, maybe the values are not significant. Best to compare your values with those of other Turks. Perhaps those Bulgarian values are typical for most Turks.

Not that I know of. However, on 23andme I have a lot of Eastern European matches mostly from Poland, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, etc.. but hardly any from Bulgaria.

The weird part is I match better with Bulgarians than I do with Turks! Something must not be right?

Hanna
09-09-2015, 06:36 PM
You must be Armenian then?
Turkish.

Anabasis
09-09-2015, 06:57 PM
If my memory of how to read that data is correct, in order of significance, that would be:

Kurd_D: 1.08
Turkish_D: 0.34
Armenian_D: -0.03
Iranian_D: -0.13
Assyrian_D: -0.45

So, perhaps you have more Anatolian Turkish than Armenian admixture?

How should we interpret the IBD values then? what if negative? and what if positive? Which population is the closest? The closest value to Zero? min (ABS(IBD(i))) ?

Znertu
09-09-2015, 07:07 PM
On 23andMe, how many Armenian matches do you have on RF?

4 from what I can see. Perhaps 5; there's one match who doesn't have her last name listed, but who has Kharpet as one of her family locations, generally used only by Armenians. I listed her as last.


0.16% DNA shared across 1 segment
Family Locations: Kharpert; Tiblisi; Erzeroum

0.14% DNA shared across 1 segment
Family Locations: Aintab, Turkey; Marzifon, Turkey; Evereg, Turkey; Fenesse, Turkey; Armenia

0.13% DNA shared across 1 segment
Family Locations: United States; Kharpert; Evereg; Fenesse; Tiblisi

0.11% DNA shared across 1 segment
Family Locations: Cungus, Turkey; Cutler, CA; Palu, Turkey; Selma, CA

0.16% DNA shared across 1 segment
Family Locations: Dersim; Palu; Hosmat; Kharpet; United States; East Anatolia; Southeast Anatolia


Regarding Turks, I do not appear to have any Turkish RF matches without ancestry from somewhere in SE Anatolia.

Humanist
09-09-2015, 07:19 PM
How should we interpret the IBD values then? what if negative? and what if positive? Which population is the closest? The closest value to Zero? min (ABS(IBD(i))) ?

If the matches of the Assyrian samples are any indication, order the values in descending order, as I have done below with my paternal uncle. He is an Assyrian from Rasht, Iran:

The higher the z value, the more significant the match. Whether the z values have any great significance as the value approaches zero, I do not know. I am sure they are of some significance, given that the second and third values for my uncle are Kurds and Armenians, even if the former are close to zero and the latter are below zero.


4.21 Assyrian_D
0.02 Kurd_D
-0.03 Armenians_Y
-0.05 Kurds_Y
-0.09 Armenian_D
-0.1 Armenians_16
-0.16 Iranian_D
-0.16 Abhkasians_Y
-0.18 Greek_D
-0.21 Georgians
-0.22 Turks
-0.23 Adygei
-0.23 Cypriots
-0.25 Turkish_D
-0.29 North_Ossetians_Y
-0.31 Romanians_14
-0.38 Romanian_D
-0.38 Bulgarians_Y
-0.39 Iranians_19
-0.57 Bulgarian_D

DMXX
09-09-2015, 08:07 PM
The weird part is I match better with Bulgarians than I do with Turks! Something must not be right?

It has everything to do with the Turkish samples. Turkey (like Iran) is a very diverse country. For the purposes of IBD segments, a Turkish average from across the entire nation will definitely blur the degree of genetic affinity to specific regions. For things like IBD to be useful, countries like Turkey and Iran really do need regional testing as a result of this.

Regarding the Bulgarian match, it might have something to do with the Armenian-like ancestry you have. There's some uniparental and autosomal links tying Armenia to the Balkans, which I believe Dienekes explored in some detail years back.

nec3
12-24-2015, 12:21 PM
Hi all,

Some of you might know me from other forums. I'm Kurdish and I had my DNA tested several years back. A recent blog post by Mfa renewed my interest in finding out how much Armenian admixture amounts to.

How do I know I'm part Armo, and not something else?"[/I]



Which clan do you belong to ? Are you a shafi or an Alevi ?

Most of people in Tunceli are kurdified Turks whose ancestors came from Khorasan region.

Read this if did not before:

http://www.sabah.com.tr/yazarlar/yukselir/2011/06/08/dersimli-kurt-degildir-cunku-kurtler-safiidir

Znertu
12-24-2015, 12:38 PM
Which clan do you belong to ? Are you a shafi or an Alevi ?

Most of people in Tunceli are kurdified Turks whose ancestors came from Khorasan region.

Read this if did not before:

http://www.sabah.com.tr/yazarlar/yukselir/2011/06/08/dersimli-kurt-degildir-cunku-kurtler-safiidir

Shadî and Xiran.

No, the Kurdified Turks theory has been spread by nationalists to ease assimilation of Kurdish Alevis. Most of the Qizilbash were Turkic, indeed, but there also were Kurdish Qizilbash, and there's no indication that the tribes of Dęrsim were Turks once. Khorasan also boasts a large Kurdish population.

This is all confirmed by genetics; the Kurdish Alevis do not cluster together with Turks, but rather with other Kurds. See: Revisiting Kurdish autosomal DNA (Eurogenes version)
(http://corduene.blogspot.be/2015/08/revisiting-kurdish-autosomal-dna.html) This also refutes another theory that Dęrsimis are chiefly Armenian-descended; it's only partially applicable to a minority of those tested.

For the Kurdish Alevi identity, it might be worthwile to read this:The debate on the ethnic identity of the Kurdish Alevis’ (http://www.hum.uu.nl/medewerkers/m.vanbruinessen/publications/Bruinessen_Aslini_inkar_eden_haramzadedir.pdf), bear in mind that he didn't have the genetic data we have know.

nec3
12-24-2015, 12:44 PM
Shadî and Xiran.

No, the Kurdified Turks theory has been spread by nationalists to ease assimilation of Kurdish Alevis. Most of the Qizilbash were Turkic, indeed, but there also were Kurdish Qizilbash, and there's no indication that the tribes of Dęrsim were Turks once. Khorasan also boasts a large Kurdish population.

This is all confirmed by genetics; the Kurdish Alevis do not cluster together with Turks, but rather with other Kurds. See: Revisiting Kurdish autosomal DNA (Eurogenes version)
(http://corduene.blogspot.be/2015/08/revisiting-kurdish-autosomal-dna.html) This also refutes another theory that Dęrsimis are chiefly Armenian-descended; it's only partially applicable to a minority of those tested.

What i wrote was said by a well known politician from Tunceli. You know him, Kamer Genç.

What about your Y-DNA, what ethnicity you most match ?

Znertu
12-24-2015, 12:55 PM
What i wrote was said by a well known politician from Tunceli. You know him, Kamer Genç.

What about your Y-DNA, what ethnicity you most match ?

My Y-DNA is E1b1b1c1a.

I'm generally closest to Kurds or Armenians, depending on the calculator.

Kamer Genç has no authority in this matter, he's just a politician. Simple statements can't refute genetics, you know.

nec3
12-24-2015, 01:03 PM
My Y-DNA is E1b1b1c1a.

I'm generally closest to Kurds or Armenians, depending on the calculator.

Kamer Genç has no authority in this matter, he's just a politician. Simple statements can't refute genetics, you know.

Kamer Genç is old/mature enough to know what he says. Sure, Tunceli is a multi-ethnic city. You can be a real kurd while Genç's tribe is a Turkish Alevi.

Znertu
12-24-2015, 01:08 PM
Kamer Genç is old/mature enough to know what he says. Sure, Tunceli is a multi-ethnic city. You can be a real kurd while Genç's tribe is a Turkish Alevi.

He's a politician, he's old/mature enough to say what is expected of him to be said. In any case, he can identify however he wants, but please don't repeat the 'Kurdish Alevis are Kurdified Turks' mantra if present-day genetic research refutes that. That's all.

nec3
12-24-2015, 01:15 PM
He's a politician, he's old/mature enough to say what is expected of him to be said. In any case, he can identify however he wants, but please don't repeat the 'Kurdish Alevis are Kurdified Turks' mantra if present-day genetic research refutes that. That's all.

By whom?

Claiming someone to be not what he thinks to be is pretty racist...

Znertu
12-24-2015, 01:24 PM
By whom?

Claiming someone to be not what he thinks to be is pretty racist...

I'm quite sure it's more beneficial for his popularity as member of the CHP to claim Kurdish Alevis are actually Turks. I don't claim him to be something he's not, I stated he can identify however he wants, but he doesn't speak for all Alevi Kurds, nor are his claims backed up by genetic research.

My points are clear, if you wish to continue this discussion, I suggest you attempt to refute the links I posted above, and cite genetic research yourself, instead of relying on one politician's remarks.

nec3
12-24-2015, 01:52 PM
I'm quite sure it's more beneficial for his popularity as member of the CHP to claim Kurdish Alevis are actually Turks. I don't claim him to be something he's not, I stated he can identify however he wants, but he doesn't speak for all Alevi Kurds, nor are his claims backed up by genetic research.

My points are clear, if you wish to continue this discussion, I suggest you attempt to refute the links I posted above, and cite genetic research yourself, instead of relying on one politician's remarks.

Lets let him be what he wants, then.

And, Thank you very much for the links. I took a short glance at them.

The first one is made by "MFA" who did not seem scientific but more nationalistic so i passed it over.

The second one, Martin van Bruinessen, said:


excerpt: "The ethnic label "Kurd" is first encountered in Arabic sources from the first centuries of the Islamic era; it seemed to refer to a specific variety of pastoral nomadism, and possibly to a set of political units, rather than to a linguistic group: once or twice, "Arabic Kurds" are mentioned. By the 10th century, the term appears to denote nomadic and/or transhumant groups speaking an Iranian language and mainly inhabiting the mountainous areas to the South of Lake Van and Lake Urmia, with some offshoots in the Caucasus...If there was a Kurdish-speaking subjected peasantry at that time, the term was not yet used to include them.

and also:

Karnamak Ardashir Papakan and the Matadakan i Hazar Dastan. G. Asatrian, Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds, Iran and the Caucasus, Vol.13, pp. 1–58, 2009. Excerpt 1: ""Generally, the etymons and primary meanings of tribal names or ethnonyms, as well as place names, are often irrecoverable; Kurd is also an obscurity" "It is clear that kurt in all the contexts has a distinct social sense, "nomad, tent-dweller". It could equally be an attribute for any Iranian ethnic group having similar characteristics. To look for a particular ethnic sense here would be a futile exercise." P. 24: "The Pahlavi materials clearly show that kurd in pre-Islamic Iran was a social label, still a long way off from becoming an ethnonym or a term denoting a distinct group of people."

It seems the term "kurd" is relatively a new product .

Znertu
12-24-2015, 02:23 PM
Lets let him be what he wants, then.

And, Thank you very much for the links. I took a short glance at them.

The first one is made by "MFA" who did not seem scientific but more nationalistic so i passed it over.

The second one, Martin van Bruinessen, said:

and also:

Karnamak Ardashir Papakan and the Matadakan i Hazar Dastan. G. Asatrian, Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds, Iran and the Caucasus, Vol.13, pp. 1–58, 2009. Excerpt 1: ""Generally, the etymons and primary meanings of tribal names or ethnonyms, as well as place names, are often irrecoverable; Kurd is also an obscurity" "It is clear that kurt in all the contexts has a distinct social sense, "nomad, tent-dweller". It could equally be an attribute for any Iranian ethnic group having similar characteristics. To look for a particular ethnic sense here would be a futile exercise." P. 24: "The Pahlavi materials clearly show that kurd in pre-Islamic Iran was a social label, still a long way off from becoming an ethnonym or a term denoting a distinct group of people."

It seems the term "kurd" is relatively a new product .

Sure, 'Kurd' started out as a label to designate a multitude of Iranic tribes, mostly nomadic, but it's current ethnic meaning is by no means recent. An alternative interpretation to an ethnic label isn't out of the ordinary either. For example, the Ottoman elite shunned the self-identification of 'Turk', since they associated it with tribal groupings. Persian and Arab identities can also be hard to specify.

Do check MFA's work, it's thorough, and there's nothing nationalistic about it. Here's another study on Kirmanc/Zaza genetics:MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2005.00174.x/abstract;jsessionid=9086ED942B999ABE367A3048CADE41 D3.f03t04), it only focuses on Y-DNA, but the conclusion is the same: "Our results also do not support the hypothesis of the origin of the Zazaki –speaking group being in northern Iran; genetically they are more similar to other Kurdish groups."

Some remarks on Kurdish identity:

A. From Hakan Özoglu's 'Kurdish Notables and the Ottoman State'

The Shahnama gives the story of the origin of the Kurds more or less the way the Serefname gives it. After telling the story of Zahhak and the people who escaped from his tyranny, Ferdowsi concludes his section with the following couplets:
When the two hundred men [i.e., the escapees] came together In such a way that they did not know one another [The cook]35 gave them for their livelihood some goats and ewes And set the desert before them [sent them to the uninhabited land]. Now, the Kurds have their origin from that race So that they do not recall the civilization.

Although it seems likely that Serefhan adopted the story from Ferdowsi, we know that it existed before Ferdowsi. For example, Masudi, a tenth century Arab historian, in his book Muruj al-dhahab wa-ma’adin al-jawhar, mentions a version of the story similar to that of Ferdowsi and Serefhan. Masudi is one of the earliest known writers who employs the word “Kurd,” and mentions the Zahhak story as a legend of Kurdish origin. Therefore, a possibility remains that Serefhan also read Masudi. Whatever the sources of Serefhan were, the existence of this story in the earlier period demonstrates that the term “Kurd” was used as an ethnic label six hundred years before Serefhan and that the term was first employed by non-Kurds to designate a collective identity.

B. From Boris James's 'Uses and Values of the Term Kurd in Arabic Medieval Literary'
I.

Ibn Shaddâd (Bahâ’ al-dîn), Al-nawâdir al-sultaniya in Recueil des Historiens des Croisades (RHC), or. vol. 3, 1884, Paris, p. 313.
A Kurdish amir, Abű ’l-Haydjâ’ al-Hadhbânî sent a letter to Saladin after the latter left Jerusalem at the end of 588/ 1193 leaving all the military troups in this threatened city : “If you want us to stay in the Holy City you will have to stay with us or leave a member of your family, because the Kurds will never obey the Turks and no more the Turks will obey the Kurds”.

It is quite clear here that the opposition between the two groups is not an opposition between two life-styles. The author knows what he is refering to by Kurds or Turks. This imputation of identity is probably the result of a common selfattribution/self-representation.
II.

Ibn Khallikân, Kitâb wafayât al-a‘yân wa anbâ’Abnâ’ al-zamân, vol. 7, p. 153, 155.
During the negotiations relating to the investiture to the Fatimid vizierate, 'Isâ al- Hakkârî, a Kurd, persuaded Qutb al-Dîn Tulayl to drop his candidacy in favor of Saladin: “Saladin and you are both from the same group. He is from kurdish origin (inna aslahu min al-akrâd). Then you won’t let the power pass to the Turks. He promised to increase his income. So he obeyed Saladin (atâ‘ahu)”.

The value of the generic term of Kurd seems here to be ethnologic. ‘Isâ is not describing a life-style. In imputing this identity he is mobilizing a useful item. Did this argument really lead Qutb al-din to drop his candidacy ? The fact that ‘Isâ promised to increase his income might have been the reason for his involvement with Saladin. Of course these two elements are not dissociable. More than a irrepressible sense of belonging to the group ethnicity is very often a tactical choice a mobilizable ressource.
III.

Al-Isfahanî, Conquęte de la Syrie et de la Palestine par Saladin, Paris, 1977, trad. Henry Massé éd. Geuhtner, p. 375-6.
“When al-Mashtűb went out from jail, [in rabî’ II 588] he was welcomed by his son happy and in good shape. Yet he found him with a turkish hair-style – that is to say with braids – he showed his displeasure, he took on a serious tone and said : “The Kurds don’t have those manners with their hair” ; Then he cut the braids and trimmed the hair. People thought this was a bad omen for the father : “This announces a misfortune that will strike him”.

Here is the clearest manifestation of Kurdish ethnicity. What is important here is not the hair style but the fact that the character considers it peculiar to his group. He sets boundaries between his group and the rest of the world.

I'm not saying 'Kurd' only had a strict ethnic meaning in the Middle Ages, but it certainly was one of its uses.

Hanna
12-24-2015, 03:21 PM
There are a lot of people from Tunceli who are uploaded on gedmatch and their admixture doesn't hint Turkification. Here are some Tunceli gedmatch IDs if anyone is interested in checking out:

F311344
F346253
F346259
F346260
F346263

nec3
12-24-2015, 03:31 PM
There are a lot of people from Tunceli who are uploaded on gedmatch and their admixture doesn't hint Turkification. Here are some Tunceli gedmatch IDs if anyone is interested in checking out:

F311344
F346253
F346259
F346260
F346263

A random pick: F346263

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Baku_WGA +50% Baku_WGA @ 1.877954


I dont know what is WGA... But i know where Baku is.

So.. ?

Hanna
12-24-2015, 03:37 PM
A random pick: F346263

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Baku_WGA +50% Baku_WGA @ 1.877954


I dont know what is WGA... But i know where Baku is.

So.. ?

His Harappa oracle 4:
F346263 did not even score any East Asian/Siberian component which hint to Turkification.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 43.27
2 Baloch 23.69
3 SW-Asian 12.92
4 Mediterranean 7.84
5 NE-Euro 6.43
6 S-Indian 2.83


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 kurd @ 3.940907
2 kurd @ 4.448887
3 iranian @ 5.809092
4 turkish @ 5.944139
5 kurd @ 5.966315
6 azeri @ 7.101077
7 uzbekistan-jew @ 7.431612
8 iranian @ 7.496834
9 armenian @ 7.790391
10 turk-kayseri @ 10.535438
11 turk @ 10.596207
12 turk-istanbul @ 11.379918
13 assyrian @ 12.215085
14 iraqi-arab @ 12.728483
15 iraqi-mandaean @ 12.890128
16 iranian-jew @ 13.897268
17 azerbaijan-jew @ 13.897567
18 georgia-jew @ 14.395844
19 north-ossetian @ 15.057000
20 iraq-jew @ 15.223044

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% kurd +50% turkish @ 2.361984


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kurd +25% kurd +25% turk-kayseri @ 1.833858


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 adygei + cypriot + georgia-jew + makrani @ 1.756200
2 balkar + cypriot + georgia-jew + makrani @ 1.781812
3 cypriot + georgia-jew + makrani + north-ossetian @ 1.816455
4 kurd + kurd + kurd + turk-kayseri @ 1.833858
5 iranian + kurd + kurd + turk-istanbul @ 1.842625
6 kurd + kurd + kurd + turk-istanbul @ 1.851124
7 iranian + kurd + kurd + turk-kayseri @ 1.898454
8 adygei + cypriot + iraq-jew + makrani @ 1.902835
9 iranian + kurd + kurd + turk-kayseri @ 1.916464
10 kurd + kurd + kurd + turk-istanbul @ 1.917067
11 iranian + kurd + kurd + turk @ 1.931432
12 iranian + kurd + kurd + turk-istanbul @ 1.932018
13 kurd + kurd + kurd + turk @ 1.935420
14 ashkenazy-jew + georgian + iranian-jew + makrani @ 1.948884
15 brahui + chechen + cypriot + druze @ 1.987707
16 ashkenazi + georgian + iranian-jew + makrani @ 2.004062
17 ashkenazy-jew + georgian + iraq-jew + makrani @ 2.006085
18 kurd + kurd + kurd + turk-kayseri @ 2.008313
19 armenian + brahui + druze + turk-istanbul @ 2.046374
20 armenian + balkar + brahui + samaritian @ 2.050228

Done.

Hanna
12-24-2015, 03:41 PM
Besides Turks, Azeris, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are similar populations with minor differences so of course they will match to some degree.

nec3
12-24-2015, 03:49 PM
Siberian 1.14%
Amerindian 0.82%

No count ?

Hanna
12-24-2015, 03:54 PM
Siberian 1.14%
Amerindian 0.82%

No count ?

You didn't even mention which calculator and he doesn't score Asian in all the calculators. His Asian is an insignificant percentage to hint Turkification, just a noise. Anyways, Kurds do score around 1-2% East Asian and Siberian.

psaglav
12-24-2015, 07:35 PM
This is what I got for that run:

Armenian_D 0.92
Turkish_D 0.17
Greek_D -1.19
Assyrian_D 0.01
Kurd_D -0.43
Iranian_D -1.32
Bulgarian_D 0.63
Romanian_D -1.89
Adygei 0.71
Georgians -0.1
Romanians_14 -1.02
Iranians_19 -0.78
Turks -0.23
Cypriots -0.78
Armenians_16 1.82
Kurds_ Y 0.37
Bulgarians_Y 0.57
Armenians_Y 0.99
Abkhasians_Y 1.77
North_Ossetians_Y -0.22

Which calculator is that?

Hanna
12-24-2015, 08:23 PM
Which calculator is that?
You will not find this on gedmatch. I am a part of Dienekes project. He did this some years back, there was a spreadsheet for it.

psaglav
12-24-2015, 08:44 PM
You will not find this on gedmatch. I am a part of Dienekes project. He did this some years back, there was a spreadsheet for it. oh, OK, thanks anyway. should have joined the genetics forums way earlier.

Palisto
12-24-2015, 09:22 PM
Which clan do you belong to ? Are you a shafi or an Alevi ?

Most of people in Tunceli are kurdified Turks whose ancestors came from Khorasan region.

Read this if did not before:

http://www.sabah.com.tr/yazarlar/yukselir/2011/06/08/dersimli-kurt-degildir-cunku-kurtler-safiidir

@nec3

I think you need an update.

In the last 5 years genetics have shown that:
1. Zaza, Kurmanji, Sorani, and Gorani Kurds are closely related to each other.
2. Sunni, Shiite, Alevi and Yezidi Kurds are closely related to each other.
3. The Kurds form a genetic cluster that can be clearly distinguished from Armenians, Assyrians, Arabs, and Turks.
4. It is interesting to note that some of the Alevi Turks cluster with Kurds but none of the Alevi Kurds cluster with Turks.
5. The only genetic cluster that is partly overlapping with the Kurdish cluster is the Iranian cluster, which makes sense since Kurdish is an Iranian language.