N1b1b in Eastern Europe

[Cellachán]

My mtdna haplogroup is N1b1b. My mother's mothers lineage is eastern european- specifically, floating around eastern Poland and Belarus.

Although generally a rare subclade in Europe, it seems if one is to find N1b1b there, it is around this area. Lithuania as well. I think another contender lies in southern Italy and Sicily.

There does not seem to be a ton of information out there on the subclade itself. What are some folks thoughts?

[lgmayka]

The Polish(-Lithuanian Commonwealth) Project has three confirmed examples of N1b1b (or N1b1b2 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults)).

[Cellachán]

I wonder if the wee presence of the subclade in eastern Europe has anything to do with the old Armenian minority of Poland/eastern europe during the latter middle ages (I think?).

Might sound a bit far-reaching, but it's rare enough there and it is not as if N1b1b follows any kind of steady cline from the mid east to europe. It's just in a couple of little pockets.

[R.Rocca]

I wonder if the wee presence of the subclade in eastern Europe has anything to do with the old Armenian minority of Poland/eastern europe during the latter middle ages (I think?).

Might sound a bit far-reaching, but it's rare enough there and it is not as if N1b1b follows any kind of steady cline from the mid east to europe. It's just in a couple of little pockets.

My wife is of 100% Polish ancestry (paper trail of all four grandparents) and she is also N1b1b, but she tested through 23andMe. Her maternal grandmother, surname Kozak, was born in Wilcza Wola, Masovian Voivodeship.

[Cellachán]

Very interesting surname Kozack...sounds like Cossack?

Your wife and I must have a deep maternal ancestor on common. Too bad our somewhat rare haplogroup has little information on the web.

[Cellachán]

I suppose the point of my original post wasn't under the assumption it Must have a recent foreign ancestry, but simply to discuss the rare haplogroup in general. Do we assume it is a minor Neolithic lineage? I know a lot were N1a in central Europe (Neolithic-types), but N1b?

[Cellachán]

Got thinking about my mtdna again and it’s possible route into northeastern Europe. As we are all well aware, the N1 clade persistent im much of the LBK related Neolithic was N1a. I have heard one or two before assert N1b was “widespread” in the Neolithic, but this may be a mistake. I believe I have heard some Balkan and Hungarian late Neolithic May have yielded n1b1. Not sure. Can’t seem to confirm that online.

N1b1 peaks in the Caucasus, but I have not found any N1b1b there. Have any of you?

Most N1b1b people online I’ve heard from, mention usually that their ftdna/deeper subclade matches are Italians and Turks (Anatolia). Does mtdna N1b1 in Europe represent a southeastern euro/Balkan Neolithic sub-population that stayed in that general area for a while before migrating to the northeast? Some people seem to also guess that European N1b1 comes from the Caucasus, but if that was true, wouldn’t these N1b1b bearing Eastern Europeans be getting Caucasus matches? Maybe there’s something I’m not getting....

Final interesting if possibly irrelevant tidbit: one N1b1 was found in a Maykop grave, with no discernible grave goods.

[Cellachán]

Something else to keep in mind; while an Ashkenazic origin of east euro N1b1b is unlikely, I still find personal anecdotes and stories from confirmed N1b1b people of Jewish origins with obviously ashkenazi last names. These individuals maintained that their deep maternal roots were in Belarus, Poland, and Lithuania. What if the pre-ashkenazi Judeo-Slavic speaking Jews melded with migrating ashkenazim and n1b1 reflects the older populations mild genetic persistence within the gene pool?

[Cellachán]

One final bump and I’ll let well enough alone. Just wondering if there’s any research to clue me in on routes.

N1b- Levantine Pre-Neolithic and Neolithic
N1b1- Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus, Neolithic Europe
N1b1b- Neolithic Europe alone? Offshoot from either Anatolia N1b1 or Caucasus N1b1?

[Cellachán]

Anyone catch that preview on the Bennett still al. Paper? I’m typing in my phone, so it’s hard to link to it now. Check out davidskis eurogenes blog, from the first I believe.

The Crimean Gravettian I guess belonged to an N1 subclade transitional to N1b. Can my haplogroup be considered Gravettian then? Or is there still holdout for basal Eurasian?

They were a bit sloppy on some of their background provided. They claimed N1b2 is exclusive to Somalis (Has any been found among them?). I had thought N1b2 was considered to be virtually exclusively Ashkenazic.

Funny, as they went on to say N1b1b is Ashkenazic. What the heck?

[parasar]

Anyone catch that preview on the Bennett still al. Paper? I’m typing in my phone, so it’s hard to link to it now. Check out davidskis eurogenes blog, from the first I believe.

The Crimean Gravettian I guess belonged to an N1 subclade transitional to N1b. Can my haplogroup be considered Gravettian then? Or is there still holdout for basal Eurasian?

They were a bit sloppy on some of their background provided. They claimed N1b2 is exclusive to Somalis (Has any been found among them?). I had thought N1b2 was considered to be virtually exclusively Ashkenazic.

Funny, as they went on to say N1b1b is Ashkenazic. What the heck?

The sample has no evidence of the so called Basal Eurasian.
This for N1b and and Oase for N is about as as basal as it gets.

[blackflash16]

They were a bit sloppy on some of their background provided. They claimed N1b2 is exclusive to Somalis (Has any been found among them?). I had thought N1b2 was considered to be virtually exclusively Ashkenazic.

y-full has several Somalis and a Yemeni under it's N1b2 tree (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2/), One of the Somali individuals is a member on this board (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2385-The-primary-N1b2-Jewish-Full-mtDNA-sequence/page2)

[Cellachán]

y-full has several Somalis and a Yemeni under it's N1b2 tree (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2/), One of the Somali individuals is a member on this board (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2385-The-primary-N1b2-Jewish-Full-mtDNA-sequence/page2)

Cool. Fair enough, I was just unaware, I suppose.

[Cellachán]

I guess the question becomes, what Component within early Gravettians is responsible for the N1 mtdna? Could something Dzudzuana-like have made it into Eastern Europe as a remnant?

[Cellachán]

Bump?

[palamede]

duplicacte

[palamede]

The Crimean Gravettian BuranKaya3A ( 36,260 to 35,280 cal BP) had 3mutations ( T152C! , G8251A, G16190A) of the 8 mutations of the node N1b. 5 were missing ( G1598A C2639T G5471A A8836G C16176g ).
Curiously , in its 2 particular mutations 1719! and 16093, we find the mutation A1719G! of N1b2. A chance or a clue , ? A1719G! is not a frequent mutation, but it is difficult to imagine the scientific team couldn't find the 5missing mutations of N1b, even if the quality of the sample is not good.

[Illyro-Vlach]

Just bumping to add that my mtDNA is N1b1c.

[gigi1]

This will be another bump for the sleeping thread :) But I just found this thread while looking for more infromation about my haplogroup. According to 23and me I'm n1b1b. I'm Turkish with mostly central anatolian ancestry. I've got a relatively close match on 23andme database, their and my maternal lines are from the same small village. And their haplogroup is n1b1 which I thought to be very interesting.

[StillWater]

Something else to keep in mind; while an Ashkenazic origin of east euro N1b1b is unlikely, I still find personal anecdotes and stories from confirmed N1b1b people of Jewish origins with obviously ashkenazi last names. These individuals maintained that their deep maternal roots were in Belarus, Poland, and Lithuania. What if the pre-ashkenazi Judeo-Slavic speaking Jews melded with migrating ashkenazim and n1b1 reflects the older populations mild genetic persistence within the gene pool?

I've hypothized that other MTDNA clades may have arrived with pre-Ashkenazi Jews to Eastern Europe ("Knaanim"). What % of Ashkenazim are N1b1b?