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pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 10:23 AM
Finally got raw data on 23andme. I must say I'm a little surprised by the results (We are Kannada speaking South Indian Brahmins);

PATERNAL LINE: H2*
MATERNAL LINE: M3A2.

It appears like H2* is pretty rare. Apart from being reclassified under H (formerly F3), whatever literature I could find (WikiPedia & some blogs) points to some distribution in Western Europe, South Iran, Armenia and South India. Any info / pointers / insights welcome.

DIY Harappa World Results (rather consistent with other SI Brahmins, working out to a rough 40-60 ASI/ANI split);

46.32% S-Indian
35.08% Baloch
6.55% Caucasian
5.21% NE-Euro
0.66% SE-Asian
0.46% Siberian
0.26% NE-Asian
0.97% Papuan
0.38% American
1.54% Beringian
0.66% Mediterranean
1.60% SW-Asian
0.09% San
0.05% E-African
0.15% Pygmy
0.03% W-African

Oracle (Single Population Sharing)

# Population (source) Distance
1 maharashtrian (harappa) 1.84
2 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 2.65
3 rajasthani (harappa) 2.81
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 2.96
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 3.12
6 meghawal (reich) 3.16
7 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 3.22
8 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.34
9 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.91
10 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.96
11 gujarati (harappa) 4.15
12 up (harappa) 4.47
13 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.66
14 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 4.8
15 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 4.8
16 kerala-nair (harappa) 4.96
17 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.35
18 vaish (reich) 5.64
19 bihari (harappa) 5.92
20 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 6.81

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.3% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) + 46.7% vysya (reich) @ 1.1
2 54.3% lodi (reich) + 45.7% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.13
3 61.6% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 38.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.15
4 50.1% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 49.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.15
5 69.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 30.2% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.18
6 52.7% dusadh (metspalu) + 47.3% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.24
7 66.7% kerala-christian (harappa) + 33.3% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.26
8 50.6% naidu (reich) + 49.4% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.26
9 66.4% tharu (metspalu) + 33.6% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.32
10 54.8% punjabi (harappa) + 45.2% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.34
11 51.8% punjabi (harappa) + 48.2% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.34
12 54.2% punjabi (harappa) + 45.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.34
13 56.8% dusadh (metspalu) + 43.2% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.35
14 60.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 39.4% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.35
15 68.4% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 31.6% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.36
16 53.1% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 46.9% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.37
17 50.4% kol (metspalu) + 49.6% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.4
18 68.8% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 31.2% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.41
19 56.2% kurumba (metspalu) + 43.8% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.41
20 86.9% maharashtrian (harappa) + 13.1% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.43

Oracle 4:

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 maharashtrian @ 1.976772
2 karnataka-brahmin @ 2.804590
3 rajasthani @ 3.022853
4 tn-brahmin @ 3.197670
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu @ 3.296015
6 meghawal @ 3.417921
7 iyer-brahmin @ 3.497756
8 iyengar-brahmin @ 3.635791
9 ap-brahmin @ 4.275940
10 kerala-christian @ 4.308855
11 gujarati @ 4.530902
12 goan @ 4.696285
13 kerala @ 4.716949
14 up @ 4.918003
15 bihari-muslim @ 5.046762
16 up-kshatriya @ 5.198367
17 singapore-indian-b @ 5.268281
18 kerala-nair @ 5.410666
19 gujarati-b @ 5.833061
20 vaish @ 6.176074

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% punjabi-brahmin +50% tamil-nadar @ 1.135602


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% andhra-pradesh +25% iyengar-brahmin +25% punjabi-khatri @ 0.827176


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 lodi + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-jatt-muslim + vysya @ 0.675016
2 kurumba + naidu + punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 0.737092
3 gujarati-a + hakkipikki + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 0.739942
4 ap-mala + gujarati-a + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri @ 0.742656
5 gujarati-a + mala + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri @ 0.747097
6 iyengar-brahmin + punjabi-khatri + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste + up @ 0.765046
7 piramalai-kallar + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-jatt-sikh + vysya @ 0.767431
8 naidu + punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-jatt-muslim + tamil-nadar @ 0.780154
9 gujarati-a + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri + tn-dalit @ 0.787268
10 naidu + punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-jatt-muslim + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste @ 0.807999
11 dusadh + iyengar-brahmin + kerala-christian + punjabi-khatri @ 0.809049
12 dusadh + naidu + punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 0.815059
13 andhra-pradesh + kurumba + punjabi-jatt-muslim + up-brahmin @ 0.822102
14 gujarati-a + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri + tn-dalit @ 0.823093
15 kol + punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-jatt-muslim + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste @ 0.823368
16 andhra-pradesh + andhra-pradesh + iyengar-brahmin + punjabi-khatri @ 0.827176
17 madiga + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-jatt-sikh + velama @ 0.829601
18 iyer-brahmin + punjabi-khatri + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste + up @ 0.829750
19 gujarati-a + hakkipikki + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri @ 0.830440
20 gujarati-a + north-kannadi + punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 0.831421


MDLP World:

Caucaus_Parsia 34.31%
Middle_East 1.71%
Indian 46.99%
South_and_West_European 2.26%
Melanesian 1.77%
Sub_Saharian 0.15%
North_and_East_European 7.10%
Arctic_Amerind 0.82%
East_Asian 2.60%
Paleo_African 0.44%
Mesoamerican -
North_Asian 1.85%

Eurogenes ANE K7:

ANE 29.57%
ASE 20.19%
WHG-UHG -
East_Eurasian 6.31%
West_African 0.30%
East_African 3.96%
ENF 39.67%

Gedrosia K11

WHG 5.14%
S_Indian 49.91%
Gedrosian 21.81%
SW_Asian 1.91%
Siberian 0.39%
EEF -
E_Asian 2.13%
Caucasus 10.62%
Kalash 4.78%
Indo_Chinese 3.30%
SE_Asian -

bored
09-13-2015, 10:33 AM
Congrats! Welcome to the forum. Can you share, where in Karnataka you are from? We have some South Indian Brahmins here. A member by the username Varun is one.

Also you should post more results. Can you post Eurogenes ANE K7? Gedrosia K11? What do you get in your Harappa oracles? I think you are northern shifted compared to Tamil Brahmins.

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 10:57 AM
bored,

Thanks for your reply. I've updated the post with more results.

Ancestry from the last couple of generations is primarily from regions skirting the western ghats of Karnataka - Hassan & Chikkamagalur districts. Paternal lineage (speculative) may have roots in the coast (mangalore, I believe);

rozenfeld
09-13-2015, 11:06 AM
I am not sure whether it's of any interest for you, but H2 was recently found in Neolithic Spain http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer&p=107553&viewfull=1#post107553

kenji.aryan
09-13-2015, 11:06 AM
Interesting results.

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 11:21 AM
@rozenfield: Thanks, definitely interesting.

Also, related (with further speculation on H2): http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.in/2015/09/new-northern-iberian-ancient-dna-doesnt.html

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 11:29 AM
Coorg (Kodagu) people are definitely pretty distinct by their looks. There are various theories on possible Indo-Scythian orgin; http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/9475-The-Kodavas-the-Warriors-of-Coorg-Kodagu-Karnataka

Bidar/Gulbarga: Not so sure. Apart from dialectical and linguistic variations, they appear to be more or less congruent with the other people of the Marathwada / Nizam-province regions.

Tulu people: More contiguous with Kerala (and the mythical parashurama region of the west-coast); Shivalli Brahmins and Bunts may have had hypergamous relationships similar to Nairs and Nambudaris of Kerala. Again very distinctive by looks from the rest of KA.

khanabadoshi
09-13-2015, 11:31 AM
Err'body more Baloch than me. :argue:
EDIT: Don't mind me. I talk to myself sometimes. :D

kenji.aryan
09-13-2015, 11:39 AM
..........................................

BMG
09-13-2015, 12:05 PM
I must say I am not sure about 23andme nomenclature nowadays . Earlier H2 in 23andme meant H-APT . Not sure they have updated them .H2 under present nomenclature is rare but H-APT is not that rare though .

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 01:09 PM
Hmm. Wouldn't be amusing if they haven't updated it. It's almost 2 years now.

RCO
09-13-2015, 01:30 PM
23andMe
Y-DNA H2
Apt H2 23496331 i4000059 C->T

defining mutations
variant call anc der
i4000059 (Apt) C T

pegasus
09-13-2015, 03:00 PM
Interesting Y dna.
Btw there is no 40% ASI/60% ANI , the SI component is not ASI.

Rajib posted this a few weeks back.
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/tamil-brahmins-are-alien-and-native/

Varun R
09-13-2015, 04:12 PM
Welcome! =) My father's family is from Mangalore and mother's from Palakkad, Kerala and Nagapattinam/Tanjore districts in Tamil Nadu. Here are my Gedrosia K11, Eurogenes ANE K7, and Gedmatch Harappa results for comparison:

Gedrosia K11
Population
WHG 6.44%
S_Indian 50.89%
Gedrosian 24.60%
SW_Asian -
Siberian 1.20%
EEF 2.51%
E_Asian 0.11%
Caucasus 5.50%
Kalash 5.21%
Indo_Chinese 2.11%
SE_Asian 1.43%

ANE K7
Population
ANE 29.22%
ASE 19.96%
WHG-UHG 2.23%
East_Eurasian 5.27%
West_African 1.54%
East_African 2.77%
ENF 39.01%

Harappa
Population
S-Indian 44.82%
Baloch 35.81%
Caucasian 7.40%
NE-Euro 8.11%
SE-Asian 0.96%
Siberian 0.83%
NE-Asian 0.26%
Papuan 0.05%
American 0.24%
Beringian -
Mediterranean 1.20%
SW-Asian -
San 0.33%
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 3.39
2 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 3.42
3 meghawal (reich) 3.66
4 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.67
5 bihari-muslim (harappa) 3.8
6 vaish (reich) 4.03
7 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.26
8 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.39
9 gujarati (harappa) 4.57
10 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.7

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 04:19 PM
Varun,

Thanks for replying!

Very curious. What sect does your father belong to?

Varun R
09-13-2015, 04:38 PM
Varun,

Thanks for replying!

Very curious. What sect does your father belong to?

That is a good question =). To be honest, I'm not completely sure myself, but family lore/ genetic relative matches seems to suggest GSB (Gowd Saraswat) in addition to various Smartha sects. Genetic relatives on that side seem to span the coast from Udupi to Mangalore. Our surname is Rao, and father's place name is given as 'Idya'. (Idya refers to a former fishing village that merged with Surathkal and later Mangalore.) Ajji's family is from Vittal (Bantwal Taluk), which is closer to the mountains.

Edit: My paternal relatives all speak Kannada.

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 06:43 PM
That's probably one of the Shivalli / Kota (possibly Havyaka also) types. Would you mind PMing me your Gedmatch kit #? Will be quite interesting!

Humanist
09-13-2015, 06:55 PM
It appears like H2* is pretty rare. Apart from being reclassified under H (formerly F3), whatever literature I could find (WikiPedia & some blogs) points to some distribution in Western Europe, South Iran, Armenia and South India. Any info / pointers / insights welcome.

Where was the case in S Iran observed? Was it in a project or study? I would like to compare the haplotype, if available, to an Assyrian H2 from NW Iran.

pava@grahana.net
09-13-2015, 07:10 PM
@Humanist: I'm not sure. I followed the Wikipedia sources from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28Y-DNA%29#Haplogroup_H2_.28P96.29 and ended up somewhere.

As pointed out in this thread, it appears that 23andme is still classifying H-APT as H2 as opposed to F3-P96.

paulgill
09-13-2015, 07:44 PM
@rozenfield: Thanks, definitely interesting.

Also, related (with further speculation on H2): http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.in/2015/09/new-northern-iberian-ancient-dna-doesnt.html

You don't need to wonder about your H2 much, I think you need to test further to see what kind of a H you actually are, as there is no shortage of H among Brahmins especially the H1a. My understanding is that Indo-Aryans were strictly R1a1a, no other Y haplogroups qualifies for that, while the H1a is Indian Tribals' haplogroup.

DMXX
09-13-2015, 08:22 PM
My understanding is that Indo-Aryans were strictly R1a1a, no other Y haplogroups qualifies for that, while the H1a is Indian Tribals' haplogroup.

The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.

pegasus
09-13-2015, 09:31 PM
You don't need to wonder about your H2 much, I think you need to test further to see what kind of a H you actually are, as there is no shortage of H among Brahmins especially the H1a. My understanding is that Indo-Aryans were strictly R1a1a, no other Y haplogroups qualifies for that, while the H1a is Indian Tribals' haplogroup.

Your confusing Proto Indo Iranians with Indo Aryans. While its a marker associated with Indo Iranians, there would be a diversity of Y dna. The Kalash/Nuristani would be a good example of that. They show a variety of Y dna lineages.

Coldmountains
09-13-2015, 09:32 PM
The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.

R1a-Z93/Z94 is deeply tied to Indo-Iranians and it is likely that almost all Proto-Indo-Iranians belonged to this lineage but nevertheless I think the truth is probably a bit more complicated. I remember that haplogroup I was found among some Tajiks and even among one Pashtun so who knows maybe some of them were even haplogroup I carriers. Another possible line among some early Indo-Iranians is R1b-Z2103, which was maybe picked from Yamnaya/Afanasevo groups assimilated by steppe Indo-Iranians and it is quite frequent today among Turkmens, some Iranian groups and even among some Pamiri populations. But after the arrival of Indo-Iranians in BMAC and further south things got very complicated and almost everything could be absorbed and spread by late Proto-Indo-Iranians.

pegasus
09-13-2015, 09:43 PM
The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.

Of the 5 Nuristani samples , 3 were R1a , 1 was R2 and one was J2. The Kalash samples had more variety with South Asian Y dna lineages L and H1 being dominant followed by R1a.

Coldmountains
09-13-2015, 10:00 PM
Of the 5 Nuristani samples , 3 were R1a , 1 was R2 and one was J2. The Kalash samples had more variety with South Asian Y dna lineages L and H1 being dominant followed by R1a.

They are not Proto-Indo-Iranians and a modern population. Most of their non-R1a Y-DNA is local and absorbed from older inhabitants. We should also remember that such kind of small populations are very vulnerable for founder effects and bottlenecks. We need ancient DNA to know which Y-DNA lineages beside of R1a-Z93 were carried by Proto-Indo-Iranians. The best candidates for that are in my opinion R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93-, Q and maybe I but for later Indo-Iranians, which mixed with BMACs and IVCs, basically everything is possible.

paulgill
09-13-2015, 10:04 PM
Your confusing Proto Indo Iranians with Indo Aryans. While its a marker associated with Indo Iranians, there would be a diversity of Y dna. The Kalash/Nuristani would be a good example of that. They show a variety of Y dna lineages.

No, it is you who is confused, I said Indo-Aryans not Indo-Iranians, even the Mittanies who ventured into Khabur River area were only R1a1a but a different branch closer to Pashtuns L657- or it was mixed with the regular Indo-Aryan branch L657+. Their varna system was so strict that it allowed no outsiders, a closed system with no back door entries.

paulgill
09-13-2015, 10:15 PM
The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.

I don't think that is the case, even the brother haplogroup R1b was not part of them, Tribes, Clans is what we are looking at here, strict rules observed closely, non conformers ousted once for ever.

DMXX
09-13-2015, 10:36 PM
I don't think that is the case, even the brother haplogroup R1b was not part of them, Tribes, Clans is what we are looking at here, strict rules observed closely, non conformers ousted once for ever.

Steppe Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 appears to have been "the" steppe marker in Yamnaya. Another subclade unrelated to either R1a and R1b (I2a) was also found among them. We also have Y-DNA J2 in the Iron Age Altai.

These findings alone give us confidence in expecting some additional inputs along the way. I will be very surprised to see something like the Tazabag'yab culture ending up being >90% R1a1a-Z93. Then again, Coldmountains' points are well received and fully justified given the very small number of Sintashta Y-DNA samples we currently have (a handful of R1a1a's do not exclude other subclades also being present). It could be possible for Sintashta to be predominantly R1a1a, with a spectrum of minority lineages also present. Derivative cultures in the Andronovo horizon might have their own distinct frequencies due to genetic drift. This ties in to your point regarding clan structures. We'll have to see where the data points towards.

pegasus
09-13-2015, 10:41 PM
They are not Proto-Indo-Iranians and a modern population. Most of their non-R1a Y-DNA is local and absorbed from older inhabitants. We should also remember that such kind of small populations are very vulnerable for founder effects and bottlenecks. We need ancient DNA to know which Y-DNA lineages beside of R1a-Z93 were carried by Proto-Indo-Iranians.
Obviously they are not. But they are Bronze age relic populations and give a snapshot of what was going on in the region. So from the perspective of NW South Asians/ SC Asians they do hold a lot of importance . It would be great to have genomes from the region. Where genetics is lacking , archaeology and skull remains helps fill the gaps. Looking at Dr Muhammad Zahir's latest work on Gandhara Grave culture esp in the Chitral region gives a clearer picture of what was going on.

pegasus
09-13-2015, 11:05 PM
No, it is you who is confused, I said Indo-Aryans not Indo-Iranians, even the Mittanies who ventured into Khabur River area were only R1a1a but a different branch closer to Pashtuns L657- or it was mixed with the regular Indo-Aryan branch L657+. Their varna system was so strict that it allowed no outsiders, a closed system with no back door entries.

Your missing the point. The Indo Aryans emerging out of the BMAC were a composite group, they are not carrying 1 marker but others too ( the ones DMXX mentioned)
The Mittani were a short lived dynasty , there are no genome results or Y dna results from them. Where are you getting your facts from?
The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization . The Mittani ruled over Hurrians, the Varna system is not present in Near Eastern societies.

pegasus
09-13-2015, 11:12 PM
Steppe Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 appears to have been "the" steppe marker in Yamnaya. Another subclade unrelated to either R1a and R1b (I2a) was also found among them. We also have Y-DNA J2 in both the Iron Age Altai and Russia.

These findings alone give us confidence in expecting some additional inputs along the way. I will be very surprised to see something like the Tazabag'yab culture ending up being >90% R1a1a-Z93. Then again, Coldmountains' points are well received and fully justified given the very small number of Sintashta Y-DNA samples we currently have (a handful of R1a1a's do not exclude other subclades also being present). It could be possible for Sintashta to be predominantly R1a1a, with a spectrum of minority lineages also present. Derivative cultures in the Andronovo horizon might have their own distinct frequencies due to genetic drift. This ties in to your point regarding clan structures. We'll have to see where the data points towards.
Given that Yamnaya is the IE homeland , I think if they did find more Sintashta samples R1b would definitely show up.

paulgill
09-13-2015, 11:23 PM
Steppe Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 appears to have been "the" steppe marker in Yamnaya. Another subclade unrelated to either R1a and R1b (I2a) was also found among them. We also have Y-DNA J2 in both the Iron Age Altai and Russia.

these findings alone give us confidence in expecting some additional inputs along the way. I will be very surprised to see something like the Tazabag'yab culture ending up being >90% R1a1a-Z93. Then again, Coldmountains' points are well received and fully justified given the very small number of Sintashta Y-DNA samples we currently have (a handful of R1a1a's do not exclude other subclades also being present). It could be possible for Sintashta to be predominantly R1a1a, with a spectrum of minority lineages also present. Derivative cultures in the Andronovo horizon might have their own distinct frequencies due to genetic drift. This ties in to your point regarding clan structures. We'll have to see where the data points towards.

Finding an ancient haplogroup at a certain place does not prove anything more than that the remains of that particular person were there at that time. It usually is difficult to determine if he was a local, an invader, a trader, a visitor, a slave, a nomad or that the remains just ended up there somehow, floods etc., it certainly does not prove that an entirely different haplogroup was a part of an R1a1a tribe.

paulgill
09-13-2015, 11:43 PM
Your missing the point. The Indo Aryans emerging out of the BMAC were a composite group, they are not carrying 1 marker but others too ( the ones DMXX mentioned)
The Mittani were a short lived dynasty , there are no genome results or Y dna results from them. Where are you getting your facts from?
The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization . The Mittani ruled over Hurrians, the Varna system is not present in Near Eastern societies.

Not me, but you are missing the point. It is the story of the Corded Ware R1a moving eastward, splitting up with the East European R1a-Z280,Z282 and Z283 etc. until they were only R1a-L657- and L657+ and finally moving south, with a strict tribal mentality. Had the Mittani dynasty lasted to this day the varna system would have been a major part of the Near Eastern societies, anyways, the varna system have disappeared where ever the Indo-Aryan influence lessened.

"The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization", what do you exactly mean by this, give me your time line for it, and what was their philosophy prior to that? I think you are confusing varna system with the caste system, two are not exactly the same. Do you belong to a Tribe, pegasus?

pegasus
09-14-2015, 01:27 AM
Not me, but you are missing the point. It is the story of the Corded Ware R1a moving eastward, splitting up with the East European R1a-Z280,Z282 and Z283 etc. until they were only R1a-L657- and L657+ and finally moving south, with a strict tribal mentality. Had the Mittani dynasty lasted to this day the varna system would have been a major part of the Near Eastern societies, anyways, the varna system have disappeared where ever the Indo-Aryan influence lessened.

"The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization", what do you exactly mean by this, give me your time line for it, and what was their philosophy prior to that? I think you are confusing varna system with the caste system, two are not exactly the same. Do you belong to a Tribe, pegasus?

Lol at your lame ad hominem attacks. Your drudging the same pseudo intellectual BS, you did that last time and were banned temporarily for it lest we forget. Now because I got you cornered intellectually your trying to bamboozle your way out lol.
In regards to the Mittani, there were a blip in Near Eastern history. Akin to the Hyksos in Egypt. There is little information about them, how do you know they were strict tribally? Were you riding with them on gilded chariots across the Iranian plateau en route to Mesopotamia ? The only prominent Indo European groups in the Bronze Age Near East were the Hittites, followed by the Iranian wave in the Iron Age with the Medes and Persians.
As for the Varna system I think its quite self explanatory.

speedyran
09-14-2015, 07:06 AM
Not me, but you are missing the point. It is the story of the Corded Ware R1a moving eastward, splitting up with the East European R1a-Z280,Z282 and Z283 etc. until they were only R1a-L657- and L657+ and finally moving south, with a strict tribal mentality. Had the Mittani dynasty lasted to this day the varna system would have been a major part of the Near Eastern societies, anyways, the varna system have disappeared where ever the Indo-Aryan influence lessened.

"The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization", what do you exactly mean by this, give me your time line for it, and what was their philosophy prior to that? I think you are confusing varna system with the caste system, two are not exactly the same. Do you belong to a Tribe, pegasus?

Can you briefly note down how Varna and Caste systems differ?

speedyran
09-14-2015, 07:16 AM
Of the 5 Nuristani samples , 3 were R1a , 1 was R2 and one was J2. The Kalash samples had more variety with South Asian Y dna lineages L and H1 being dominant followed by R1a.

In reference to the high L and H1 lineages of the Kalash, I had read something before which I think made a point to the effect that the Kalash were mainly south Asian males who somehow had acquired only West Eurasian females in their group, in contrast to what we find in some other groups in south Asia where it can be the other way around. When I get a free time I will see if I can find the article again and post it.

pava@grahana.net
09-14-2015, 08:12 AM
The canonical difference is that varNa is largely a social dynamic. Caste is by birth (jAti itself by etymology means "by birth");

There are diverse examples of castes having social mobility (and hence the fluidity within the varNa structure) but caste identity remaining unchanged.

paulgill
09-14-2015, 08:29 AM
Lol at your lame ad hominem attacks. Your drudging the same pseudo intellectual BS, you did that last time and were banned temporarily for it lest we forget. Now because I got you cornered intellectually your trying to bamboozle your way out lol.
In regards to the Mittani, there were a blip in Near Eastern history. Akin to the Hyksos in Egypt. There is little information about them, how do you know they were strict tribally? Were you riding with them on gilded chariots across the Iranian plateau en route to Mesopotamia ? The only prominent Indo European groups in the Bronze Age Near East were the Hittites, followed by the Iranian wave in the Iron Age with the Medes and Persians.
As for the Varna system I think its quite self explanatory.

Where do you see me abusing you, is not it actually other way around? You are at it again, aren't you? Are you trying to tell me that Indo-Aryans were R1b and/or J2? It upsets you so much just because I disagree with you, unbelievable. Your comments will mean nothing to me from now onwards, I mean NOTHING WHATSOEVER, as I see what you are exactly up to.

paulgill
09-14-2015, 08:42 AM
Can you briefly note down how Varna and Caste systems differ?

The basic difference between the Varna system and the caste is that varna is a major division of the society into four groups while the castes are basically tribal divisions.

Coldmountains
09-14-2015, 09:20 AM
In reference to the high L and H1 lineages of the Kalash, I had read something before which I think made a point to the effect that the Kalash were mainly south Asian males who somehow had acquired only West Eurasian females in their group, in contrast to what we find in some other groups in south Asia where it can be the other way around. When I get a free time I will see if I can find the article again and post it.

Haplogroup L and H are ultimately of West Eurasian origin and entered India either during the Mesolithic or even just during the Neolithic. This haplogroups among Kalash are unlikely from a migration from the Indian subcontinent and just local lineages. Kalash are a small population and were very vulnerable to bottlenecks and founder effects so they had 1000 or 2000 years ago maybe very different amounts of R1a, L, H, ... So it is possible that they have now more steppe mtdna than steppe Y-DNA but much of the mtdna which looks like it could originate from steppe Indo-Iranians could be older and predate Indo-Iranians. Already Pre-IEs of South Asia had much ANE so they should share some mtdna lineages with later steppe Indo-Iranians

khanabadoshi
09-14-2015, 10:43 AM
Fascinating discussion guys.

parasar
09-14-2015, 05:06 PM
Can you briefly note down how Varna and Caste systems differ?

The way I see it varn was the early general, broad division by occupation.
Brahman/Babhan - an advisor - priest, administrator, philosopher
Khashtra/Khetiya - a freeholder - agriculturist, land owner, chieftain, ruler
Vaisya/Vessa - a householder - trader, agriculturist, etc.
Shudra/Sudda - tiller/husbandman, hunter, etc.

As occupations grew and admixed, what Europeans recognized as castes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste) developed.
For example it would be difficult to fit my caste - Bhumihar Babhan - into any particular varn.
Bhumihars were administrators, freeholders, agriculturists, and householders, with occupations ranging from Shudra to Brahman ones.

The English civil servants had trouble figuring us out:
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA134
"He has apparently followed Buchanan in confounding the Bhuihars or Bhumihars of Northern Bengal and Bihar with the Bhu'iyas of Shahabad. The latter are an acknowledged aboriginal tribe, while the former profess to be the descendants of Brahmans who took to agriculture as an occupation. Hence their name of Bhumihara, or “Land-tillers.”[shudra] The Brahmans stoutly deny this account, and say that the Bhuihars are descended from the spurious Brahmans whom jarasandha created from men of inferior caste[shudra]. The Rajas of Benares, Bettiah, and Tikari are of this class, but they call themselves Brahmans, although they are more generally known as Babhans. But this very title of Babhan seems to me to confirm their claim to Brahman descent, as Babhan is a common pronunciation of the name amongst the lower classes. In Barendra, or Northern Bengal, the people still speak of the Bara Bhuni'har as the former rulers of the country"
https://books.google.com/books?id=gU_RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92
"The Babhans are neither Rajputs nor Brahmans, but resemble both."
The imperial gazetteer of India
https://books.google.com/books?id=-YkIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA409
etc. etc.

Of course we are mentioned as Babhans in Buddhist texts and historically attested in Asoko's inscriptions:

"The word “Babhan” is neither Sanskrit nor Prakrit. But the word distinctly appears to have been used in the inscriptions of Asoka and in the Buddhist Suttas in the sense of Brahmin."
https://books.google.com/books?id=12gxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA178

Eg. "Samana BAbhanesu" Inscriptions of Asoka https://books.google.com/books?id=xcMUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA69

"A reference to Arrian, quoted subsequently, shows that his sixth class of the people of India, at the time of Alexander's inroad, were precisely these inspectors, or inquisitors, or censors, [episcopi] who reported to the kings where regal rule prevailed, and to the magistrates in the democratic states. We have thus Buddha, Asoko's edicts, and Arrian, confirming each other’.
the Brahmans, or rather Babhana, although admitted to exist, were charged with civil functions, and were destitute of a religious character, which was confined to the ascetics or priests, who were derived from all the other classes."
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA118

everest59
09-14-2015, 05:49 PM
Haplogroup L and H are ultimately of West Eurasian origin and entered India either during the Mesolithic or even just during the Neolithic. This haplogroups among Kalash are unlikely from a migration from the Indian subcontinent and just local lineages. Kalash are a small population and were very vulnerable to bottlenecks and founder effects so they had 1000 or 2000 years ago maybe very different amounts of R1a, L, H, ... So it is possible that they have now more steppe mtdna than steppe Y-DNA but much of the mtdna which looks like it could originate from steppe Indo-Iranians could be older and predate Indo-Iranians. Already Pre-IEs of South Asia had much ANE so they should share some mtdna lineages with later steppe Indo-Iranians

Looking at H on yfull, it seems to be basically Indian. What makes you think it is West Eurasian?
L I can see due to the LT connection.

Coldmountains
09-14-2015, 05:53 PM
Looking at H on yfull, it seems to be basically Indian. What makes you think it is West Eurasian?
L I can see due to the LT connection.

It was found among EEFs in Europe and it is a sister haplogroup of G, which is typical for West Eurasia and Neolithic Farmers. But hard to say when H arrived in the Indian subcontinent. H2 was found in Neolithic Spain as far as I know and F* among other EEFs is probably often also H. This EEFs show no direct genetic connection to South Asia so I think their H2 is from a West Eurasian source linked to their ENF

everest59
09-14-2015, 05:55 PM
It was found among EEFs in Europe and it is a sister haplogroup of G, which is typical for West Eurasia. But hard to say when H arrived in the Indian subcontinent. H2 was found in Neolithic Spain as far as I know and F* among other EEFs is probably often also H

Was this reported in a paper? That H2 was found in neolithic spain? What was the quality of the sample?

redifflal
09-14-2015, 06:25 PM
If even H is coming from West Eurasia in Neolithic, what are the haplogroups that were there before?

Skyfall
09-28-2015, 08:00 PM
Interesting. So you are not really highly "South Indian" in terms of your ancestry.

pava@grahana.net
10-08-2015, 10:23 AM
Why do you say that? I suppose the admixture levels are rather typical of South Indian Brahmins by what I've seen.

pegasus
10-11-2015, 07:31 PM
Haplogroup L and H are ultimately of West Eurasian origin and entered India either during the Mesolithic or even just during the Neolithic. This haplogroups among Kalash are unlikely from a migration from the Indian subcontinent and just local lineages. Kalash are a small population and were very vulnerable to bottlenecks and founder effects so they had 1000 or 2000 years ago maybe very different amounts of R1a, L, H, ... So it is possible that they have now more steppe mtdna than steppe Y-DNA but much of the mtdna which looks like it could originate from steppe Indo-Iranians could be older and predate Indo-Iranians. Already Pre-IEs of South Asia had much ANE so they should share some mtdna lineages with later steppe Indo-Iranians

H arose in South Asia, so it was just local among them ( Kalash), though L seems to originate in Iran. Yes the Kalash are too small a population, their unmixed Nuristanis relatives across the border would give a better picture, since they are not as inbred. Among them R1a was dominant, from a small sample of 5. What you said about the Y DNA and mtdna is true.

Coldmountains
10-11-2015, 07:42 PM
H arose in South Asia, so it was just local among them ( Kalash), though L seems to originate in Iran. Yes the Kalash are too small a population, their unmixed Nuristanis relatives across the border would give a better picture, since they are not as inbred. Among them R1a was dominant, from a small sample of 5. What you said about the Y DNA and mtdna is true.
Anatolian farmers carried H and even some European EEFs. They both lacked South Asian ancestry so I rather would locate the homeland of H in West Asia. Otherwise it is hard to explain how they got it.

Megalophias
10-11-2015, 07:47 PM
Anatolian farmers carried H and even some European EEFs. They both lacked South Asian ancestry so I rather would locate the homeland of H in West Asia. Otherwise it is hard to explain how they got it.
H coalesced around the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic, probably close to 50 000 years ago. Even H1 is probably around 40 000 years old. There is lots and lots of time for the basal clades of H to have spread.

Why put the homeland of H in West Asia when most of its branches are found in South Asia? It's not as if people never migrated *out* of South Asia.

newtoboard
10-11-2015, 07:59 PM
Anatolian farmers carried H and even some European EEFs. They both lacked South Asian ancestry so I rather would locate the homeland of H in West Asia. Otherwise it is hard to explain how they got it.

all that is likely h2. h and h3 still seem to have a south asian distribution. and h2 is also found in south asia. this h2 is found thousands of years after h originated so we have no idea what h's autosomal signal was and it could have been diluted. also different h clades could have originated in different places.

Themaster
11-09-2015, 05:39 AM
Is 23andme the best company to go with for South asians ?

babhan
03-22-2016, 08:30 AM
It is the conspiracy of the britishers to ridicule and demonize our clan as they very well know we are fighting clan of millitary brahmins .who never remained subjected to slavery of rajputs and in every battle gave them a befitting reply .I have interacted with many babhans of magadh region they claim we are the primitive or indigenous of magadh.All sakaldipi ,kanyakubj were inland brahmins who came and occupied our territory becoz we were magahi speaking brahmins.

Prasar bhai i am no where as resourceful or intellectual as you but their are many theories regarding our origin but which one is authentic i donot know but one this is for sure all castes in bihar are envy of us beoz in spite of we are only 4 percent of the bihar population , we wield a strong political might.

parasar
03-28-2016, 05:02 PM
It is the conspiracy of the britishers to ridicule and demonize our clan as they very well know we are fighting clan of millitary brahmins .who never remained subjected to slavery of rajputs and in every battle gave them a befitting reply .I have interacted with many babhans of magadh region they claim we are the primitive or indigenous of magadh.All sakaldipi ,kanyakubj were inland brahmins who came and occupied our territory becoz we were magahi speaking brahmins.
...

No doubt babhans have been in Magadh region for a long time. They are mentioned in Asoka's inscriptions and Buddhist material. Babhan happens to be the same as brahman, no doubt, and was one of the forms in usage in the Mauryan period.

It is the term bhumihar that is more recent. We do see the term mentioned in pre-British period for Gujjars in Desavali Vivriti. So it is my theory that bhumihars, while related to babhans, had separated out for some time, and migrated to U.P. and Bihar areas after the Arab invasions.

The Nasik area, the Narmada valley, Tapti valley, and Mahi valley were all Gujjar regions. In fact the earliest inscription of Gujjars comes from Baroach. https://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Arabs overran this region prior to their defeat at Navasarika (Nausari). This we know from Chalukyan inscriptions, Arab records, and Mohyal kavyas.

This resulted in a massive convulsion in western India and southern Indus and resulted in the Rajput/Bhumihar phenomenon - essentially both are brahmans but are socially split in some ways. These Gujjar families established kingdoms all over north India - Gohil/Gehlot/Udaipur (family of brahman Guhadatta), Ajmer/Delhi/Chauhan (family of brahman Samanta), and Ujjain/Kannauj/Pratihar (family of brahman Harichandra). Over a period of time, due to the social split and due to following primogeniture, the Rajputs started to identify more with kshatriyas and less with brahmans.

Inscriptions at Aitpur, Bijolia, and Ghatayala http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1707-Relative-finder-distribution-of-South-Asian-Caste-and-Tribal-Haplogroups&p=23564&viewfull=1#post23564

babhan
04-18-2016, 05:12 AM
No doubt babhans have been in Magadh region for a long time. They are mentioned in Asoka's inscriptions and Buddhist material. Babhan happens to be the same as brahman, no doubt, and was one of the forms in usage in the Mauryan period.

It is the term bhumihar that is more recent. We do see the term mentioned in pre-British period for Gujjars in Desavali Vivriti. So it is my theory that bhumihars, while related to babhans, had separated out for some time, and migrated to U.P. and Bihar areas after the Arab invasions.

The Nasik area, the Narmada valley, Tapti valley, and Mahi valley were all Gujjar regions. In fact the earliest inscription of Gujjars comes from Baroach. https://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Arabs overran this region prior to their defeat at Navasarika (Nausari). This we know from Chalukyan inscriptions, Arab records, and Mohyal kavyas.

This resulted in a massive convulsion in western India and southern Indus and resulted in the Rajput/Bhumihar phenomenon - essentially both are brahmans but are socially split in some ways. These Gujjar families established kingdoms all over north India - Gohil/Gehlot/Udaipur (family of brahman Guhadatta), Ajmer/Delhi/Chauhan (family of brahman Samanta), and Ujjain/Kannauj/Pratihar (family of brahman Harichandra). Over a period of time, due to the social split and due to following primogeniture, the Rajputs started to identify more with kshatriyas and less with brahmans.

Inscriptions at Aitpur, Bijolia, and Ghatayala http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1707-Relative-finder-distribution-of-South-Asian-Caste-and-Tribal-Haplogroups&p=23564&viewfull=1#post23564

yes very informative and well researched theory by you
bro..