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poi
02-16-2018, 04:06 AM
Dude! Have you seen the Hindu goddesses and some gods, despite the description of their complexions etc... those pics are majorly west Eurasian shifted... sharp sharp sharp. Sometimes, I wonder did colonialism leave the “dark is bad and evil” inferiority complex or was it the vedic invasion. Thought provoking eh, controversial.

Can you share some images? Most images I have seen are plump and rounded godesses, and not just their faces lol. Saraswati, Durga, Kali (mostly posters plastered around the house growing up) did not give an impression of West Eurasian shifted. ANd the statues were even less so. I'm obviously talking about Nepal here, so might be different in India.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 04:08 AM
Not necessarily, because of adoptions of male children. Brahmins practiced monogamy for the most part and also having a son was like the life's goal, according to the shastras/smritis. If a couple could not conceive a son, they would adapt a son. The son would be a Brahmin and the true son for the couple, for all intent and purpose.

If i was to have a Hindu wedding and the Brahmin turned out non z93, I want my money back

Paid for pedigree and ritual purity damn it

poi
02-16-2018, 04:15 AM
If i was to have a Hindu wedding and the Brahmin turned out non z93, I want my money back

Paid for pedigree and ritual purity damn it

Instant R1a tester kit... buy 2 and get the Skin Color SNP kit(not just those 2 damn markers) for half off!

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 04:18 AM
Can you share some images? Most images I have seen are plump and rounded godesses, and not just their faces lol. Saraswati, Durga, Kali (mostly posters plastered around the house growing up) did not give an impression of West Eurasian shifted. ANd the statues were even less so. I'm obviously talking about Nepal here, so might be different in India.
Images seen over my lifetime lol, even Krishna was pale. I remember seeing cobra posters in Nepali villages along with the posters you mentioned with red Tika stuff. But I will share if I come across dem. Kali is awesome: what she represents and I have never seen her complexion being depicted anything other than blue. Laxmi, saraswati, Paravati, Indra, I forgot names myen... west Eurasian can be alpine ;) those god/goddess images definitely are’t South Asia specific, at least to me.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 04:18 AM
Can you share some images? Most images I have seen are plump and rounded godesses, and not just their faces lol. Saraswati, Durga, Kali (mostly posters plastered around the house growing up) did not give an impression of West Eurasian shifted. ANd the statues were even less so. I'm obviously talking about Nepal here, so might be different in India.

Yes I've only noticed pan-South Asian round faces in religious Hindu art

Though post-Mughal Hindu art probably emphasised light skin more

poi
02-16-2018, 04:26 AM
Yes I've only noticed pan-South Asian round faces in religious Hindu art

Though post-Mughal Hindu art probably emphasised light skin more

Definitely. But none of the Mughal paintings look West Eurasian shifted either. May be a bit Mongolian.

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 04:28 AM
The most fair skinned SAs are all Shudras or outside the caste system doe, so while selection for fair skin exists in modern SA society - to say it was a tenet of Vedic Hinduism is a bit of a stretch (not your position but a position that is commonly held)

Brahui, Nursitanis/Dards, Kalash, Hunza valley peoples - they would have been called mleccha by the Vedic Aryans

Later Vedic literature speaks of the western Anava tribes as mlecchas and occupying northern Punjab, Sindh and eastern Rajasthan. The tribes of the north were mlecchas either because they were located on the frontiers such as Gandhara, Kashmira and Kambojas and therefore both their speech and culture had become contaminated and differed from that of Āryāvarta, or else, as in the case of southern India, they were once Aryas but having forsaken the Vedic rituals were regarded to mleccha status.[22][not in citation given]

Among the tribes termed Mlechcha were Sakas, Huns, Yavanas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Bahlikas and Rishikas.[4] The Amarakosha described the Kiratas , Khasas and Pulindas as the Mleccha-jatis. Indo-Greeks, Scythians,[5] and Kushanas[6] were also mlecchas.[7][8]

The Vayu, Matsya and Brahmanda Puranas state that the seven Himalayan rivers pass through mleccha countries.[9]

Its funny how the native darkie Dravidians were not even mentioned once

don't u smell a rat for the authors of these puranas?..perhaps the neo-Brahmins who emerged after budhists 's decline and unfolded their regime in the shadow of shankaracharya....how the coconut became so pious for all the rituals in north india?....

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 04:30 AM
Definitely. But none of the Mughal paintings look West Eurasian shifted either. May be a bit Mongolian.

You said I looked like those in Mughal paintings and now you are saying Mongolian shifted. So you are saying I am Mongolian shifted, blasphemy. sarcasm intended.

poi
02-16-2018, 04:39 AM
don't u smell a rat for the authors of these puranas?..perhaps the neo-Brahmins who emerged after budhists 's decline and unfolded their regime in the shadow of shankaracharya....how the coconut became so pious for all the rituals in north india?....

Interesting. I would have assumed that the use of coconut would be one of those old Indus/Harappan holdovers like goddess/bull worship.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 04:42 AM
don't u smell a rat for the authors of these puranas?..perhaps the neo-Brahmins who emerged after budhists 's decline and unfolded their regime in the shadow of shankaracharya....how the coconut became so pious for all the rituals in north india?....

good point - Shankaracharya did go on a purification drive back north against Buddhism but i'm not sure how much influence he himself would have had vs the incumbent Brahmans in the north who also were interested in reclaiming the region from Buddhism

Earliest reference to Mleccha was the late Vedic Satpata Brahmana where Mleccha meant outsiders who did not accept Brahman supremacy and law

@Parasar is more knowledgeable than me on this, maybe he can chime in

bmoney
02-16-2018, 04:46 AM
Interesting. I would have assumed that the use of coconut would be one of those old Indus/Harappan holdovers like goddess/bull worship.

Yeah me too, but coconuts don't grow near Harappa - youd have to go to all the way south to coastal Maharashtra to get some but this was part of the IVC cultural zone so possibly an innovation that was adopted

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 05:00 AM
Interesting. I would have assumed that the use of coconut would be one of those old Indus/Harappan holdovers like goddess/bull worship.Coconut is harvested in south india..it was tucked to north india as a religious essential after shankaracharya revival of Hinduism.....some business also make sense with religious practise ...lol...

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 05:14 AM
As I had noted: "Kayasthas often used to list their caste on documents they authored."




Xuanzang's accounts are extremely reliable. There is no misinterpretation as the word has been used elsewhere by him.
See also:
Arya-manjusri-mulakalpa
"Rajyavardhana and Harshavardhana; and War with Soma (Sasanka)
R. (Rajyavardhana) , the excellent king of the Vaisya caste in Madhyadesa ... His younger brother H. (Harshavardhana)..."


I would say 0 validity.

vehemently denying the claim..of course you have something to tell then,

As per KP jaiswal work based on Manjushree...Guptas were considered to be jarta/jat....and probably harsha lineage also addressed as vaishya to represent the farmer/landowners. Originally vardhans were sun worshippers...and a Maga priest was brought to tell Harsha fortune on his birth.....so vaishya claim gets weakened if we take vaishya in the sense of modern day "baniya" caste...Anyway, as per the BS dahiya ..the birth place of harsha "shrimalpur" located on Jalandhar/hoshiarpur border even today is inhabited by bains jatts...

Mathura Jata (जाट) (Jat = जाट) family, born of a Vaisali (वैशाली) lady (T.), originally Vaisya . He became the king of the Magadhas (758-60).
महादुर्भिक्षसंपातं परचक्रसमाकुलम् । प्राच्या जनपदा व्यस्ता उत्रस्ता गतमानसा ।।758।।भविष्यन्ति न संदेह: तस्मिं देशे नराधिपा: । मधुरायां जातवंशाढ्य: वणिक सूर्वी नृपो वर: ।।759।।सोअपि पूजितमूर्तिस्तु मागधानां नृपो भवेत (T.463b)तस्याप्यनुजो भकाराख्य प्राचीं दिशि समाश्टत: ।।760।। तस्यापि सुत: पकाराख्य: प्राग्देशेष्वेव जायत: ।क्षत्रिय: अग्रणी प्रोक्त: बालबंधानुचारिण: ।।761।। (see for Sanskrit text)
Comments

Owing to the name Gupta the dynasty has been considered by the author as Vaisya originally. But the author is careful to note the fact in the next verse that they were described before him (prokta) as leading Kshatriyas (kshatriyah agrani) (क्षत्रियः अग्रणी) (761).

The invasion mentioned above refers to the Kota vs. Gupta fights for two generations.

It is to be marked that although the king is not named, he is described as the son of the Vaisali Lady in the Tibetan text. He is said to have been a Mathura-Jata (जाट) (Sanskrit- Jata-vamsa जाट-वंस) . Jata-vam'sa, that is, Jata Dynasty stands for Jarta, that is, Jat. That the Guptas were Jat, we already have good reasons to hold (JBORS, XIX. p. 115). His Vaisali mother is the Lichchhavi lady. Evidently the ancestors of Samudra Gupta, according to this datum, once belonged to Mathura.

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 05:33 AM
Can we ban Jatland wiki as a source on this forum Khanabadoshi?

To illustrate my point, I will just drop a gem from it here:
About Jutland, Denmark, the website claims and I quote: 'It was founded by Asiagh Jats who were known at that time by the name as Asii.'

Another: Baloch (बलोच) Biloch (बिलोच)Bilauch (बिलौच)[1] [2] Jat clan[3] is found in Afghanistan.[4] The Race/Tribe of the Jat- Baloch live in the Delta Region of the Indus[5] Balach is for Baloch, and stands for Balaecha Chohan.[6] Baluchya/Baluchi[7] is Jat Gotra.

Khanabadoshi please socho iss baray mein kuch.

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 05:57 AM
Can we ban Jatland wiki as a source on this forum Khanabadoshi?

To illustrate my point, I will just drop a gem from it here:
About Jutland, Denmark, the website claims and I quote: 'It was founded by Asiagh Jats who were known at that time by the name as Asii.'

Another: Baloch (बलोच) Biloch (बिलोच)Bilauch (बिलौच)[1] [2] Jat clan[3] is found in Afghanistan.[4] The Race/Tribe of the Jat- Baloch live in the Delta Region of the Indus[5] Balach is for Baloch, and stands for Balaecha Chohan.[6] Baluchya/Baluchi[7] is Jat Gotra.

Khanabadoshi please socho iss baray mein kuch.

That’s discrimination, one should provide logical rebuttal rather than eliminating the source, imo. That’s fair play.

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 06:13 AM
Jatland has written lot of garbage.. And please consider also blocking all the references taken from Ramayana , mahabharat, purans..etc bcz the greatest ancient folks in those divine books are born from anything as fire, soil, pot, mouth, shoulders, sweating but not from the womb.. Lol...
I even wonder how the claims based on fake genelogy and bs stories hardly get a raised eyebrow here.. But a valid reference from kp jaiswal got the immediate attention.. Lol..

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 06:25 AM
That’s discrimination, one should provide logical rebuttal rather than eliminating the source, imo. That’s fair play.

It probably is, but I cannot even begin to rebut that Jutland, Denmark assertion for example. I cannot even begin to counter that Baloch being Jats statement without suffering from acute brain damage. That website, I think, is a very successful psychological operation against all the sane people that's why I proposed a ban on it. They have an interwoven complex web of lies where everything traces back to the same obscure books written by some Ram Suroop Joon and/or some other equally vain cretins. Basically, they deliberately lie so extensively that the cost of logically rebutting them becomes so damn high that only a few would ever try. Jatland is cancer!

poi
02-16-2018, 06:27 AM
Jatland has written lot of garbage.. And please consider also blocking all the references taken from Ramayana , mahabharat, purans..etc bcz the greatest ancient folks in those divine books are born from anything as fire, soil, pot, mouth, shoulders, sweating but not from the womb.. Lol...
I even wonder how the claims based on fake genelogy and bs stories hardly get a raised eyebrow here.. But a valid reference from kp jaiswal got the immediate attention.. Lol..

You made an interesting point, but it was not relevant imo. If somebody here says that Karna had no Ydna since his father was the Sun, then that person would not be taken seriously as they are mixing clearly mythological stories with actual physical traits. However, if somebody says that Karna's tales could be a story of an ancient tribe of North India blah blah, that might be of genuine scientific/genetic interest.

Edit - btw, my reply was not about your original Jatt, but your analogy using ancient stories.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 06:28 AM
It probably is, but I cannot even begin to rebut that Jutland, Denmark assertion for example. I cannot even begin to counter that Baloch being Jats statement without suffering from acute brain damage. That website, I think, is a very successful psychological operation against all the sane people that's why I proposed a ban on it. They have an interwoven complex web of lies where everything traces back to the same obscure books written by some Ram Suroop Joon and/or some other equally vain cretins. Basically, they deliberately lie so extensively that the cost of logically rebutting them becomes so damn high that only a few would ever try. Jatland is cancer!

@Sapporo i hear is a huge fan of Jatland wiki

"Gill is a very large gotra of the Sikh Jats. Among the Pathans they are called Gilzai. In the European countries of France, Germany, etc, they were called Gauls"

"B S Dahiya[10] writes: Gill/Gelani are the Aegli of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. (XVII, 5, 1) J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestians in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 A.D. In the heyday of th Gills in the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilan. The Gills do not add the suffix 'an' to their name. They are found in Punjab and Haryana.[11]"

Bhim Singh Dahiya[12] traces Gills to the people of Greece. They are the Aegi of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestian in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 AD. In the heyday of Gills, the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilani. He[13] opines that people of this tribe came in the company of Alexander. Then settled in Kabul, Kandahar and Punjab. One of the sons of Hercules was named Gilla. It is also possible that ancestors of Gills came to Greece from Middle Asia and then to India.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Gill

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 06:31 AM
Jatland has written lot of garbage.. And please consider also blocking all the references taken from Ramayana , mahabharat, purans..etc bcz the greatest ancient folks in those divine books are born from anything as fire, soil, pot, mouth, shoulders, sweating but not from the womb.. Lol...
I even wonder how the claims based on fake genelogy and bs stories hardly get a raised eyebrow here.. But a valid reference from kp jaiswal got the immediate attention.. Lol..

You're copying and pasting from Jatland. Wherever you find a source on the website, please try confirming it from google books or some other place. Copy from the source and not from a website like Jatland if possible. Jatland people are liars so they probably are also misquoting from the sources. I have rarely seen myths being peddled as objective truths in my short time on Hindi section of this website to be honest.

EDIT: And very often questions have been raised on questionable geneologies here, so I don't know why you say what you say about the 'bs stories.' I think you can raise as many questions as you want iand if possible you may even get some answers.

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 06:43 AM
@Sapporo i hear is a huge fan of Jatland wiki

"Gill is a very large gotra of the Sikh Jats. Among the Pathans they are called Gilzai. In the European countries of France, Germany, etc, they were called Gauls"

https://www.jatland.com/home/Gill

From what I have seen, Sapporo seems to put in effort behind his responses here.

But even if I were a Gill, I would probably also want to claim some of that French and Gaul goodness bro. 'They were called Gauls.' hahaha!

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 07:00 AM
@Sapporo i hear is a huge fan of Jatland wiki

"Gill is a very large gotra of the Sikh Jats. Among the Pathans they are called Gilzai. In the European countries of France, Germany, etc, they were called Gauls"

"B S Dahiya[10] writes: Gill/Gelani are the Aegli of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. (XVII, 5, 1) J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestians in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 A.D. In the heyday of th Gills in the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilan. The Gills do not add the suffix 'an' to their name. They are found in Punjab and Haryana.[11]"

Bhim Singh Dahiya[12] traces Gills to the people of Greece. They are the Aegi of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestian in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 AD. In the heyday of Gills, the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilani. He[13] opines that people of this tribe came in the company of Alexander. Then settled in Kabul, Kandahar and Punjab. One of the sons of Hercules was named Gilla. It is also possible that ancestors of Gills came to Greece from Middle Asia and then to India.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Gill

There must be a reason for them to unite within and enforce a forum. But these Jatts don't follow Pashtun culture neither do Pashtuns follow Jatt culture, hence they aren't Pashtuns, idc about genetic lineage and long lost genetic cousins here, plausible reasons haryana jatts show up as our closest south Asian population.
Not so long ago, many afghans believed that we was lost tribe of Israel and were adamant about it :amen: however, I don't know how they crossed 'seven seas' spreading their lineage with such precision.
one of my fav jatt video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdpy5OA56yk

pegasus
02-16-2018, 07:02 AM
@Sapporo i hear is a huge fan of Jatland wiki

"Gill is a very large gotra of the Sikh Jats. Among the Pathans they are called Gilzai. In the European countries of France, Germany, etc, they were called Gauls"

"B S Dahiya[10] writes: Gill/Gelani are the Aegli of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. (XVII, 5, 1) J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestians in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 A.D. In the heyday of th Gills in the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilan. The Gills do not add the suffix 'an' to their name. They are found in Punjab and Haryana.[11]"

Bhim Singh Dahiya[12] traces Gills to the people of Greece. They are the Aegi of Herodotus, Gelae of Strabo and others and Gili/Gille of modern Central Asia. Gelanis are mentioned in a passage of Ammianus Marcellinus. J. Marquart tried to substitute Segestian in place of Gelan perhaps to prove that Sakasthan (Sacestene of the Greeks) was independent up to 350 AD. In the heyday of Gills, the Caspian sea was called the Sea of Gilani. He[13] opines that people of this tribe came in the company of Alexander. Then settled in Kabul, Kandahar and Punjab. One of the sons of Hercules was named Gilla. It is also possible that ancestors of Gills came to Greece from Middle Asia and then to India.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Gill

NEVER reference Jatland 95% of it is BS.

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 07:07 AM
There must be a reason for them to unite within and enforce a forum. But these Jatts don't follow Pashtun culture neither do Pashtuns follow Jatt culture, hence they aren't Pashtuns, idc about genetic lineage and long lost genetic cousins here, plausible reasons haryana jatts show up as our closest south Asian population.
Not so long ago, many afghans believed that we was lost tribe of Israel and were adamant about it :amen: however, I don't know how they crossed 'seven seas' spreading their lineage with such precision.
one of my fav jatt video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdpy5OA56yk

Yes, but they could be Afghans by descent. Or conversely, Gilzais are Jatts who started speaking Pushto. By your logic, even the Niazis, Mamdots and Tareens of Punjab aren't Pushtoons.

Edit: Pushtoon by ethnicity, not language. Replace Pushtoon with the whatever you call the Pushtoon's ethnicity if the term used is strictly linguistic.

pegasus
02-16-2018, 07:13 AM
Jatland has written lot of garbage.. And please consider also blocking all the references taken from Ramayana , mahabharat, purans..etc bcz the greatest ancient folks in those divine books are born from anything as fire, soil, pot, mouth, shoulders, sweating but not from the womb.. Lol...
I even wonder how the claims based on fake genelogy and bs stories hardly get a raised eyebrow here.. But a valid reference from kp jaiswal got the immediate attention.. Lol..

The goal of those works is mostly social/philosophical, the genealogies in it are a fleeting after thought , equating them with Jatland is quite idiotic, because the later solely aims to establish bizarre cultural and genealogical connections based of someone's vivid and bizarre imagination.
Also Jatland has this creepy obsession with Scythians.

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 07:16 AM
Yes, but they could be Afghans by descent. Or conversely, Gilzais are Jatts who started speaking Pushto. By your logic, even the Niazis, Mamdots and Tareens of Punjab aren't Pushtoons.

In this context, Afghans by decent would only be possible if they were afghan by culture. There are recent Pashtuns/pakhtuns within the confederation now who adopted the culture and you should know it better given that you are from Pakistan. Niazis by name, khan by name, even a bengali person from Bangladesh by name(khan) could say he is a pashtun, but you can't be punjabi/bengali..... culturally and be calling yourself a Pashtun, that's the Pashtun logic, not MY logic.

When a Pashtun meets another Pashtun, they ask about family background, relatives, etc in Pashto, not punjabi/bengali/jatt language, they ask about your lineage, your dialect, your hometown, etc etc. How do these "Pashtuns" relate in such scenario?

"oh hey, I am genetically pashtun cz 23&me and gedmatch says so, but I don't know much about the culture but they my last name is durrani/Niazi/Khan and my some grandfather was a Pashtun OR hey my lastname is blahblah and it's a Pashtun tribalname, hence I am a Pashtun but I don't know much abut the culture, I am just a Pakistani person/Bangladeshi person/Indian Person"
that person maybe "Pashtun" by lineage cz oh hail genetics or oh hail some great grandfather but unless they start immersing within the Pashtun culture, what do you call them?

There are many Afghan 'Pashtuns' by name who don't identify as Pashtuns nor follow the culture:
an example
https://www.google.com/search?q=durrani+popal&oq=durrani+popal&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2823j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the second time, I have having this sorta conversation with you IIRC.

Sapporo
02-16-2018, 07:23 AM
@Sapporo i hear is a huge fan of Jatland wiki

"Gill is a very large gotra of the Sikh Jats."

Well, I am for surname or clan research purposes. Even then, it is probably sometimes prone to errors. I don't pay much attention to any drivel regarding specific or supposed origins of certain clans that aren't supported by academic studies or historical research. Like any internet source, I take and use what I can and ignore the unsubstantiated portions.

The part I left in quotes is the only useful part from the Gill page.

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 07:33 AM
gill and gilzai may have a connection with themselves and further some link with gilan sea.......but blatantly declare gilzai as jats is weird!!

On Jatland, the translators have blended work of many authors, opinions, mythological stories etc in a single thread without even logically maintaining the sequence of writing, .... so when someone starts reading it, it become utterly confusing and a person finds himself in a pit of shit...lol...
this absurd way of writing the stuff on Jatland wiki has even doomed some valuable information which comes in glimpse...

for example...many jatt clans names as gill, mann, bains, pannu, dabas, kahlon etc exactly similar to last names of many European and west Asians.. so instead of jumping directly to conclusion and declaring them jats...they could have better presented that thing as a possible connection among those and leaving scope of further research......

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 07:45 AM
gill and gilzai may have a connection with themselves and further some link with gilan sea.......but blatantly declare gilzai as jats is weird!!

On Jatland, the translators have blended work of many authors, opinions, mythological stories etc in a single thread without even logically maintaining the sequence of writing, .... so when someone starts reading it, it become utterly confusing and a person finds himself in a pit of shit...lol...
this absurd way of writing the stuff on Jatland wiki has even doomed some valuable information which comes in glimpse...

for example...many jatt clans names as gill, mann, bains, pannu, dabas, kahlon etc exactly similar to last names of many European and west Asians.. so instead of jumping directly to conclusion and declaring them jats...they could have better presented that thing as a possible connection among those and leaving scope of further research......

They didn't even write the name properly it Ghilzi/ghilzai/Khilzai/khilzi not GILLZAI that's already a bummer as the starting is already hogwash. Now, just saying A is C withouy ant sort of explanation! even a 5 year old wouldn't buy that kishmish. Secondly, there is no cultural similarities and many Pashtuns are known for non-islamic traditions if they had anything before islam. There ain't any significant that ties them to Ghilzai...yata yata yata.
They may have some interesting and authentic info but how are they gonna sell those info given much of what they write there is blatant hogwash, that being said, how do you know what you quoted from that site earlier is the truth?

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 07:47 AM
In this context, Afghans by decent would only be possible if they were afghan by culture. There are recent Pashtuns/pakhtuns within the confederation now who adopted the culture and you should know it better given that you are from Pakistan. Niazis by name, khan by name, even a bengali person from Bangladesh by name(khan) could say he is a pashtun, but you can't be punjabi/bengali..... culturally and be calling yourself a Pashtun, that's the Pashtun logic, not MY logic.

When a Pashtun meets another Pashtun, they ask about family background, relatives, etc in Pashto, not punjabi/bengali/jatt language, they ask about your lineage, your dialect, your hometown, etc etc. How do these "Pashtuns" relate in such scenario?

"oh hey, I am genetically pashtun cz 23&me and gedmatch says so, but I don't know much about the culture but they my last name is durrani/Niazi/Khan and my some grandfather was a Pashtun OR hey my lastname is blahblah and it's a Pashtun tribalname, hence I am a Pashtun but I don't know much abut the culture, I am just a Pakistani person/Bangladeshi person/Indian Person"
that person maybe "Pashtun" by lineage cz oh hail genetics or oh hail some great grandfather but unless they start immersing within the Pashtun culture, what do you call them?

There are many Afghan 'Pashtuns' by name who don't identify as Pashtuns nor follow the culture:
an example
https://www.google.com/search?q=durrani+popal&oq=durrani+popal&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2823j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the second time, I have having this sorta conversation with you IIRC.


Khan is not a Pushtoon title and I suspect you already know this.

The people I mentioned are all of demonstratable Pushtoon descent. I did not mention Bangladeshi 'Pushtoons' anywhere. The tribes I mentioned I can demonstrate to you have bona fide Pushtoon ancestries. Note: I am using Pushtoon as an ethnic identity here and not necessarily a linguistic one. I think you're saying that if a person loses his language and culture, he is not a Pushtoon anymore. Hypothetical question: if a Pushtoon's son is born and raised in America and forgets all about his roots, what is his ethnic background?

Edit: And yes this is the second time so I am expecting a brief and focussed response. You can elaborate on your response in the following paragraph if you wish.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 08:10 AM
There must be a reason for them to unite within and enforce a forum. But these Jatts don't follow Pashtun culture neither do Pashtuns follow Jatt culture, hence they aren't Pashtuns, idc about genetic lineage and long lost genetic cousins here, plausible reasons haryana jatts show up as our closest south Asian population.
Not so long ago, many afghans believed that we was lost tribe of Israel and were adamant about it :amen: however, I don't know how they crossed 'seven seas' spreading their lineage with such precision.
one of my fav jatt video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdpy5OA56yk

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

FBI: Fully Bewakuf Insaan

bmoney
02-16-2018, 08:12 AM
Well, I am for surname or clan research purposes. Even then, it is probably sometimes prone to errors. I don't pay much attention to any drivel regarding specific or supposed origins of certain clans that aren't supported by academic studies or historical research. Like any internet source, I take and use what I can and ignore the unsubstantiated portions.

The part I left in quotes is the only useful part from the Gill page.

well played

bmoney
02-16-2018, 08:23 AM
Khan is not a Pushtoon title and I suspect you already know this.

The people I mentioned are all of demonstratable Pushtoon descent. I did not mention Bangladeshi 'Pushtoons' anywhere. The tribes I mentioned I can demonstrate to you have bona fide Pushtoon ancestries. Note: I am using Pushtoon as an ethnic identity here and not necessarily a linguistic one. I think you're saying that if a person loses his language and culture, he is not a Pushtoon anymore. Hypothetical question: if a Pushtoon's son is born and raised in America and forgets all about his roots, what is his ethnic background?

Edit: And yes this is the second time so I am expecting a brief and focussed response. You can elaborate on your response in the following paragraph if you wish.

Ayub Khan was Tareen Pashtun - guessing native Hindko speaker

"Ayub Khan was fluent in Urdu, English and his regional Hindko dialect as well as Pashto."

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 08:24 AM
Khan is not a Pushtoon title and I suspect you already know this.

The people I mentioned are all of demonstratable Pushtoon descent. I did not mention Bangladeshi 'Pushtoons' anywhere. The tribes I mentioned I can demonstrate to you have bona fide Pushtoon ancestries. Note: I am using Pushtoon as an ethnic identity here and not necessarily a linguistic one. I think you're saying that if a person loses his language and culture, he is not a Pushtoon anymore. Hypothetical question: if a Pushtoon's son is born and raised in America and forgets all about his roots, what is his ethnic background?

Edit: And yes this is the second time so I am expecting a brief and focussed response. You can elaborate on your response in the following paragraph if you wish.

Khan is the lastname many people who claim/suspect "Pashtun" (esp. South Asians) descent use at large.

I don't care what tribe names you use, it doesn't matter. Many Baloch use ... zai as their tribal name, they aren't Pashtun, they are Baloch. Sounds like more of an emotional melodrama over why someone who ain't following Pashtun culture should be Pashtun because they belong to some bonafide lineage. Pashtun ethnic identity without the language and culture, is like a person without a limb, unless they were deaf/dumb why wound't they wanna speak the language? It defines their cultural identity, many Pashtuns are bilingual/multilingual why not speak the language and follow the culture, if you care to identify as a Pashtun because that's what being a Pashtun is all about?


Your ethnic roots forgetting candidate: his ethnic identity would be just Afghan/Pakistani... where is that root forgetting candidate from? unless he is in anthrogenica or 23&me or ... and has to explain about his roots that too if he wishes to explain say to someone like Khanabadoshi, and for that he will waste his precious time asking his parents, sounds absurd since he forgot his roots already why bother? Even a Pathan bengali will say that he is a Pashtun, Pashtun empires were there and ofc some lineages might be true hence their ethnic background is Pashtun/Pathan by default just like the root forgetting bonafide bloke.
Scenario: the Bengali person’s ancestsor didn’t continue the Pashtun culture. Sounds like heard that story somewhere.:/

I am done with this bollywood sounding melodrama. You might wanna go to pashtunforums or whatever forums just so that candidate gets valid entry into Pashtunistan central, I told you what my elders taught me, I don't care to sell my viewpoint to you, I am just sharing what I know and was taught.

Disclaimer: genetics might portray me an a bonafide Pashtun but I ain't a bonafide Pashtun culturally. I respect what the culture stands for as it did since antiquity.
And sure you can have the last word apparently it means something here for posters like you who are like broken records.

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 08:53 AM
Khan is the lastname many people who claim/suspect "Pashtun" (esp. South Asians) descent use at large.

I don't care what tribe names you use, it doesn't matter. Many Baloch use ... zai as their tribal name, they aren't Pashtun, they are Baloch. Sounds like more of an emotional melodrama over why someone who ain't following Pashtun culture should be Pashtun because they belong to some bonafide lineage. Pashtun ethnic identity without the language and culture, is like a person without a limb, unless they were deaf/dumb why wound't they wanna speak the language? It defines their cultural identity, many Pashtuns are bilingual/multilingual why not speak the language and follow the culture, if you care to identify as a Pashtun because that's what being a Pashtun is all about?


Your ethnic roots forgetting candidate: his ethnic identity would be just Afghan/Pakistani... where is that root forgetting candidate from? unless he is in anthrogenica or 23&me or ... and has to explain about his roots that too if he wishes to explain say to someone like Khanabadoshi, and for that he will waste his precious time asking his parents, sounds absurd since he forgot his roots already why bother?

I am done with this bollywood sounding melodrama. You might wanna go to pashtunforums or whatever forums just so that candidate gets valid entry into Pashtunistan central, I told you what my elders taught me, I don't care to sell my viewpoint to you, I am just sharing what I know and was taught.


I am not asking you to teach or enlighten me. I only asked for your opinion and you yourself assumed as if I am here to buy your viewpoint.

Just Pakistani is not a valid ethnic identity I am sorry but whatever floats your boat.

Khan is not a Pushtoon title and no it's not only used by people who claim/suspect Pushtun descent. Exhibit A: Mongols.

The hypothetical answer still remains unanswered. By the logic imparted to you by your elders, Sher Shah Suri was not a Pushtoon because he did not speak Pushto or was in touch with his roots; but you claimed he was just the other day. Zahir Shah was also like a person without limb because he did not speak Pushto.

But thanks for making an effort to respond.

Edit: Answer to OPs snarky edit: you type a lot but speak less.

Sapporo
02-16-2018, 08:57 AM
for example...many jatt clans names as gill, mann, bains, pannu, dabas, kahlon etc exactly similar to last names of many European and west Asians.. so instead of jumping directly to conclusion and declaring them jats...they could have better presented that thing as a possible connection among those and leaving scope of further research......

I've always been curious if there is any link between some of those surnames and the ones used by Europeans (usually Germanic speakers like Germans or English). However, it should be noted that these names are pronounced quite differently in Punjabi or Hindi and it is probably some very old linguistic ancestral connection (Indo Europeans) if there is any merit or truth behind it.

pegasus
02-16-2018, 09:25 AM
I've always been curious if there is any link between some of those surnames and the ones used by Europeans (usually Germanic speakers like Germans or English). However, it should be noted that these names are pronounced quite differently in Punjabi or Hindi and it is probably some very old linguistic ancestral connection (Indo Europeans) if there is any merit or truth behind it.

I think its just coincidence and those names are truncated to be spelled like that, my friend her surname is Dhillon but its not pronounced in the same way as the Anglo Saxon Dhillon.

Sapporo
02-16-2018, 09:44 AM
I think its just coincidence and those names are truncated to be spelled like that, my friend her surname is Dhillon but its not pronounced in the same way as the Anglo Saxon Dhillon.


That's definitely possible as well but we really can't say for sure since there is basically no concrete historical documentation or studies on the origins of avarna tribes of Northwest South Asia like Jatts, Tarkhans, Gujjars, etc. or their individual clans/gotras. Most of what you read online outside of genetic studies (like the recent Mahal one) is hearsay or unsubstantiated stories.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

pegasus
02-16-2018, 10:07 AM
That's definitely possible as well but we really can't say for sure since there is basically no concrete historical documentation or studies on the origins of avarna tribes of Northwest South Asia like Jatts, Tarkhans, Gujjars, etc. or their individual clans/gotras. Most of what you read online outside of genetic studies (like the recent Mahal one) is hearsay or unsubstantiated stories.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

The only thing common between British Islanders and those groups you mentioned is the Yamna ancestry via BB, but thats 4-4.5 Kya through space and time, its definitely just coincidence. Nobody keeps tribal or surnames from the early Bronze Age. Even with some Jewish groups who are the most meticulous with their genealogies, tribal affiliations date mainly from antiquity.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 10:26 AM
I am not asking you to teach or enlighten me. I only asked for your opinion and you yourself assumed as if I am here to buy your viewpoint.

Just Pakistani is not a valid ethnic identity I am sorry but whatever floats your boat.

Khan is not a Pushtoon title and no it's not only used by people who claim/suspect Pushtun descent. Exhibit A: Mongols.

The hypothetical answer still remains unanswered. By the logic imparted to you by your elders, Sher Shah Suri was not a Pushtoon because he did not speak Pushto or was in touch with his roots; but you claimed he was just the other day. Zahir Shah was also like a person without limb because he did not speak Pushto.

But thanks for making an effort to respond.

Edit: Answer to OPs snarky edit: you type a lot but speak less.

All Paki Rajputs ive met use Khan but don't claim Afghan descent

Amir Khan would be a famous example of Pakistani Rajput

Razib Khan is Bengali but doesn't claim Afghan descent, I think it is largely a title there too

Sapporo
02-16-2018, 01:50 PM
The only thing common between British Islanders and those groups you mentioned is the Yamna ancestry via BB, but thats 4-4.5 Kya through space and time, its definitely just coincidence. Nobody keeps tribal or surnames from the early Bronze Age. Even with some Jewish groups who are the most meticulous with their genealogies, tribal affiliations date mainly from antiquity.

I pretty much agree. Was just messing about. Besides, as already noted, the pronunciations and even other spellings are usually significantly different. You've already pointed out that the Dhillon sounds nothing like the English variant Dillon. Mann is often spelled as Maan and not pronounced like the German Mann. Bains is also pronounced differently by Punjabis. I think the only surname not spelled differently or pronounced in a different way is Gill and its origin is likely quite different than the Germanic variant.

Jatts also share with Kang with Koreans (Kang/Gang) and there is no relation nor between the Korean Park and Scottish Park.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-16-2018, 02:24 PM
I think a lot of Indian surnames like place names got anglicized or is getting anglicized. While studying in Punjab, I had a batchmate who was Kaler. Then there was a person from the examination dept whose surname was Klair. My friend said both were from the same clan but the later one's surname got anglicized. In Bengal there is Basu and there is the anglicized Bose as well.

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 04:49 PM
All Paki Rajputs ive met use Khan but don't claim Afghan descent

Amir Khan would be a famous example of Pakistani Rajput

Razib Khan is Bengali but doesn't claim Afghan descent, I think it is largely a title there too

Those details could be right, many south Asians who claim/suspect Pashtun/Pathan ancestry use the last name khan, I have never heard of a mallik claiming Pathan ancestry or an alam mentioning that his great great grandfather was a Pashtun by lineage. When a cultural continuity ceases to exist, the genetic affiliation can get watered down assuming those individuals opt out completely and adapt to a new adopted culture. Razib khan doesn’t represent many khans of bengali descent who claim Pashtun ancestry.
The Bollywood actor Amir khan allegedly of
Afghan Pashtun ancestry uses the last name khan, so does salmon khan, his dad apparently has alakozai ancestry.
Another one, kader khan: spoke pashto, Afghan immigrant I think! descendants: most likely just carry that “lineage”.
Feroz khan: Dad Pashtun, Mum Iranian, culturally fantasized the culture of his paternal forefathers: seen in his movies, married a Hindu: children- Pathan by lineage, don’t follow anything Pashtun....
Said Ali khan: allegedly of Pashtun lineage, yet culturally generic North Indian(exaggeration)

Afshar
02-16-2018, 05:32 PM
Email the author, would be interesting to know

I have 1 top 20 23andme relative whos Q-M346, and found 2 Nair Qs in the FTDNA page one is Q-L56 and the other Q-M346, so it made it to South India as well
South India seems to be mostly M346, while I think that M25 is almost exclusively in between Haryana-Lahore.


Malik can be anything, however, in my experience, almost all Maliks I've met are Rajput. A significant amount of them have usually been from the Potohar region. Maybe Heirs of Gandhara has better insight. For me the Malik association is: Rajput, many from around Rawalpindi area (but you will find them all over... I knew many in Multan.. all Rajput too lol), usually tall (I can think of 3 Malik families where all the women are 6ft+), and someone in their family is currently a part of the military or their ancestors were, and as the name implies... ain't none of them poor.
He is from Haryana so probably the guy Sapporo mentioned.

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 05:44 PM
I don't understand why the surname similarity coincidence happen only for jatt clans... Lindsay Lohan, Eric Bana...



Moshe kahlon.. Israel minister https://googleweblight.com/i?u=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Kahlon&s=1&hl=engine.

parasar
02-16-2018, 05:49 PM
vehemently denying the claim..of course you have something to tell then,

As per KP jaiswal work based on Manjushree...Guptas were considered to be jarta/jat....and probably harsha lineage also addressed as vaishya to represent the farmer/landowners. Originally vardhans were sun worshippers...and a Maga priest was brought to tell Harsha fortune on his birth.....so vaishya claim gets weakened if we take vaishya in the sense of modern day "baniya" caste...Anyway, as per the BS dahiya ..the birth place of harsha "shrimalpur" located on Jalandhar/hoshiarpur border even today is inhabited by bains jatts...

Mathura Jata (जाट) (Jat = जाट) family, born of a Vaisali (वैशाली) lady (T.), originally Vaisya . He became the king of the Magadhas (758-60).
महादुर्भिक्षसंपातं परचक्रसमाकुलम् । प्राच्या जनपदा व्यस्ता उत्रस्ता गतमानसा ।।758।।भविष्यन्ति न संदेह: तस्मिं देशे नराधिपा: । मधुरायां जातवंशाढ्य: वणिक सूर्वी नृपो वर: ।।759।।सोअपि पूजितमूर्तिस्तु मागधानां नृपो भवेत (T.463b)तस्याप्यनुजो भकाराख्य प्राचीं दिशि समाश्टत: ।।760।। तस्यापि सुत: पकाराख्य: प्राग्देशेष्वेव जायत: ।क्षत्रिय: अग्रणी प्रोक्त: बालबंधानुचारिण: ।।761।। (see for Sanskrit text)
Comments

Owing to the name Gupta the dynasty has been considered by the author as Vaisya originally. But the author is careful to note the fact in the next verse that they were described before him (prokta) as leading Kshatriyas (kshatriyah agrani) (क्षत्रियः अग्रणी) (761).

The invasion mentioned above refers to the Kota vs. Gupta fights for two generations.

It is to be marked that although the king is not named, he is described as the son of the Vaisali Lady in the Tibetan text. He is said to have been a Mathura-Jata (जाट) (Sanskrit- Jata-vamsa जाट-वंस) . Jata-vam'sa, that is, Jata Dynasty stands for Jarta, that is, Jat. That the Guptas were Jat, we already have good reasons to hold (JBORS, XIX. p. 115). His Vaisali mother is the Lichchhavi lady. Evidently the ancestors of Samudra Gupta, according to this datum, once belonged to Mathura.

I see nothing wrong with Jatland wiki's actual references to inscriptions and such. It is a nice compendium. But we should take the opinions there with a grain of salt. For example jarta-jat. Has any Jat ever called themselves jarta? Have the Gupt's ever called themselves Jat. All we know for sure is the main Gupt line were adopted (dauhitra) into a Licchavi family of Magadh.

I have read much of Jayaswal's (RIP) work, and I have to say there is lots of preconceived notions that go into his theories:
"He also traced the Jata origin of the Guptas from the phrase mahdhurayam jata vamsadhya mentioned in the Manjusri-Mula-kalpa. Jayaswal also turned the pages of the history of Nepal to show that the Guptas were of low origin. The Gupta kings of Nepal are said to have belonged to the Ahlr caste or the Goalas. According to him this again brings the Guptas very near to the Jats, who are classed popularly along with the goalas or Ahirs."

Also by the, how is जाट = जात ? For the all the permutations I have seen: J=G, TH=t, rt=at, might as well make it simple Gutt(prakrit)=Jutt.

On another note, there may well be remnant Gupts still in the Karnataka area where there is a place called Guttal.

parasar
02-16-2018, 06:07 PM
Malik is an Arabic word literally meaning Lord or King inferring some landowner or ruler, I know a Jat Sikh with this surname as well. So it can be literally anyone from some land owning class.

While yes the current malik titles are of perso-arab vintage, the term historically is first seen very early in South Asia.
Asok's Aramaic inscription: prydrs mlk or Piodasses Basileos https://books.google.com/books?id=9U6RlVVjpakC&pg=PA398

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 06:13 PM
I don't understand why the surname similarity coincidence happen only for jatt clans... Lindsay Lohan, Eric Bana...



Moshe kahlon.. Israel minister https://googleweblight.com/i?u=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Kahlon&s=1&hl=engine.

Does “lohan” carry the retroflex on ‘an’ or bana “na” punjabi has major retroflex, doesn’t it? Unless Lindsay loahan’s ancestors lost the retroflex whilst adopting/creating/spreading Celtic( or whatever her group is). Pretty sure that many last names of eastern origin prolly can sound WHG central, not just that of jatt clans.

Heir of Gandhara
02-16-2018, 06:18 PM
All Paki Rajputs ive met use Khan but don't claim Afghan descent

Amir Khan would be a famous example of Pakistani Rajput

Razib Khan is Bengali but doesn't claim Afghan descent, I think it is largely a title there too


After conversion, the generic Hindu last names like Singh, Dev and Pal were dropped in favor of the Islamic 'Khan' it appears. The word itself has roots in the Turko-Mongol cultures.

The post-1947 generations, of the Rajputs at least, started dropping these Khan last names in favor of their clan names. If you go to my grandfather's generation and beyond, you will never find anyone using clan name as the last name. The same trend is now being adopted by the Pakistani Pushtoons of FATA wherein among the newer generation, you would very often find the clan name being the last name. Sometimes the name Khan is still added in the middle but often it is also not.

For another thread, It could also be interesting to explore why Northern Punjabi tribes started using clan names instead of Khan. In Sargodha and Jhang, people have been using clan names to recognize each other for a very long time. Reason for this difference could be that Northern Punjabis recognized each other via titles while the latter through clan names.

Khan being a Pushtoon title is an old wive's tale and I have no idea why we are even having this discussion in the age of Google.

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 06:20 PM
While yes the current malik titles are of perso-arab vintage, the term historically is first seen very early in South Asia.
Asok's Aramaic inscription: prydrs mlk or Piodasses Basileos https://books.google.com/books?id=9U6RlVVjpakC&pg=PA398
Aramaic is a Semitic language just like Arabic. Wasn’t Aramaic lingua Franca of the Syrians during 5/6th century? Those Pakistanis with Malik last name are most likely using it b cause of Islamic influence. Hindus use Malik for owner/ boss as well, don’t they?

Sapporo
02-16-2018, 06:38 PM
Khan being a Pushtoon title is an old wive's tale and I have no idea why we are even having this discussion in the age of Google.

That's my interpretation of it. It's a title of Central Asian Turkic-Mongol origins.

https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=khan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_(surname)

Perhaps some South Asians do in fact use it while claiming Afghan/Pashtun heritage but a greater amount probably just use it as an "Islamic surname" and it does not signify any actual descent or ancestral claims. I feel the same thing goes on with some people using the Shiekh honorific and even Syed (although lots of Syeds actually claim descent from the prophet).

Edit: bol_nat just mentioned Mirasis but I believe it was also a common occurrence for "lower caste" Hindus to convert to Islam and hide their pre-Islamic identity through the adaptation of Islamic titles as surnames. It's not just Rajputs, Jatts, Awans, Arains, Gujjars, Khatris, etc. using Shiekh, Syed, Khan, Siddiqui, Abbasi, etc.

bol_nat
02-16-2018, 06:45 PM
After conversion, the generic Hindu last names like Singh, Dev and Pal were dropped in favor of the Islamic 'Khan' it appears. The word itself has roots in the Turko-Mongol cultures.

The post-1947 generations, of the Rajputs at least, started dropping these Khan last names in favor of their clan names. If you go to my grandfather's generation and beyond, you will never find anyone using clan name as the last name. The same trend is now being adopted by the Pakistani Pushtoons of FATA wherein among the newer generation, you would very often find the clan name being the last name. Sometimes the name Khan is still added in the middle but often it is also not.

For another thread, It could also be interesting to explore why Northern Punjabi tribes started using clan names instead of Khan. In Sargodha and Jhang, people have been using clan names to recognize each other for a very long time. Reason for this difference could be that Northern Punjabis recognized each other via titles while the latter through clan names.

Khan being a Pushtoon title is an old wive's tale and I have no idea why we are even having this discussion in the age of Google.

Few years ago I learned my great grand father had Khan surname. Though not anyone since then. Marasis have adopted Khan title in large numbers in punjab.

parasar
02-16-2018, 06:53 PM
Aramaic is a Semitic language just like Arabic. Wasn’t Aramaic lingua Franca of the Syrians during 5/6th century? Those Pakistanis with Malik last name are most likely using it b cause of Islamic influence. Hindus use Malik for owner/ boss as well, don’t they?

Yes that is correct - the Aramaic mlk is related to the Arabic word.

Aramaic was the administrative language of the Persians too. I believe Asokan Aramaic is similar to that seen in Egypt, and likely the Kapurdigiri (non-Aramaic) script was adapted from an early Aramaic form too.

The title is Malik and boss form is maalik, both undoubtedly related.

heksindhi
02-16-2018, 07:16 PM
Perhaps some South Asians do in fact use it while claiming Afghan/Pashtun heritage but a greater amount probably just use it as an "Islamic surname" and it does not signify any actual descent or ancestral claims. .

This is certainly the case in southern Pakistan (Sindh/Balochistan) - the only people I've come across that use 'Khan' to imply Pashtun heritage/ancestry are exclusively of Muhajir background. Sindhis and Baloch sometimes use Khan as a title, but its almost always followed by their tribe/clan names. Its also considered a bit pretentious to use the Khan title unless the individual/family happens to have some hereditary claims to tribal/clan leadership. The title 'Mir' is also used in a similar fashion.

Afshar
02-16-2018, 07:37 PM
While yes the current malik titles are of perso-arab vintage, the term historically is first seen very early in South Asia.
Asok's Aramaic inscription: prydrs mlk or Piodasses Basileos https://books.google.com/books?id=9U6RlVVjpakC&pg=PA398

Interesting, where do you think the seljuks got it from then (Malikshah)

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 08:14 PM
@poi, I was at this Indian store today... saw these, what are the names of those gods? Not pics but idols.
21516
21517

parasar
02-16-2018, 10:20 PM
Interesting, where do you think the seljuks got it from then (Malikshah)

The combo indicates that perhaps in the Kerman area?
(Shah ultimately seems to derive from field - Khet - Kshetra - Kshatra - Khshathra - Khsha - Shah)
https://books.google.com/books?id=1ajwK7ejowwC&pg=PT153
Parthian MLKYNMLK (and similar Devaputra Shahi Shahanshahi Shaka Murunda - Allahabad Pillar Inscription of Samudr Gupt)

bmoney
02-16-2018, 10:51 PM
Those details could be right, many south Asians who claim/suspect Pashtun/Pathan ancestry use the last name khan, I have never heard of a mallik claiming Pathan ancestry or an alam mentioning that his great great grandfather was a Pashtun by lineage. When a cultural continuity ceases to exist, the genetic affiliation can get watered down assuming those individuals opt out completely and adapt to a new adopted culture. Razib khan doesn’t represent many khans of bengali descent who claim Pashtun ancestry.
The Bollywood actor Amir khan allegedly of
Afghan Pashtun ancestry uses the last name khan, so does salmon khan, his dad apparently has alakozai ancestry.
Another one, kader khan: spoke pashto, Afghan immigrant I think! descendants: most likely just carry that “lineage”.
Feroz khan: Dad Pashtun, Mum Iranian, culturally fantasized the culture of his paternal forefathers: seen in his movies, married a Hindu: children- Pathan by lineage, don’t follow anything Pashtun....
Said Ali khan: allegedly of Pashtun lineage, yet culturally generic North Indian(exaggeration)

Sorry I meant Amir Khan Janjua of Bolton.. hes a boxer

Aamir Khan does have paternal Afghan lineage, though probably quite diluted - amazing actor nonetheless

bmoney
02-16-2018, 10:54 PM
@poi, I was at this Indian store today... saw these, what are the names of those gods? Not pics but idols.
21516
21517

Looks like Saraswati on the left

Sai Baba on the right

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 12:04 AM
I pretty much agree. Was just messing about. Besides, as already noted, the pronunciations and even other spellings are usually significantly different. You've already pointed out that the Dhillon sounds nothing like the English variant Dillon. Mann is often spelled as Maan and not pronounced like the German Mann. Bains is also pronounced differently by Punjabis. I think the only surname not spelled differently or pronounced in a different way is Gill and its origin is likely quite different than the Germanic variant.

Jatts also share with Kang with Koreans (Kang/Gang) and there is no relation nor between the Korean Park and Scottish Park.

I found this interesting story about a Mann Jatt dude who is now Muslim. From what I understand the Mann are based from this village/area? Thought it would be of interest to you. There is another one about a Grewal. The series is long, there are lots of videos, but I think some of us should go through them. It's a treasure trove, a bunch of old men who have a strong grasp on their familial histories in Punjab. In some of these videos they are describing exact muhallahs where such and such people lived.


https://youtu.be/YWCVLp6qroo

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 12:14 AM
Aramaic is a Semitic language just like Arabic. Wasn’t Aramaic lingua Franca of the Syrians during 5/6th century? Those Pakistanis with Malik last name are most likely using it b cause of Islamic influence. Hindus use Malik for owner/ boss as well, don’t they?

Malik is even way after Islamic influence. It started off as a given title like Chaudhary, probably during late Mughal era, or British Raj. One thing that all Chaudhary's and Malik's have in common they are from areas that were firmly under strong Mughal or Raj influence and probably have an ancestor that worked in service to one or the other in some capacity. I assume most were revenue collectors on behalf of whichever crown.

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 01:02 AM
The combo indicates that perhaps in the Kerman area?
(Shah ultimately seems to derive from field - Khet - Kshetra - Kshatra - Khshathra - Khsha - Shah)
https://books.google.com/books?id=1ajwK7ejowwC&pg=PT153
Parthian MLKYNMLK (and similar Devaputra Shahi Shahanshahi Shaka Murunda - Allahabad Pillar Inscription of Samudr Gupt)

You are correct about the 'shah' word etymology(both avestan/sanskrit). Malikshah(seljuq title) means Shahanshah, not sure why you mention Kerman?

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 01:36 AM
Malik is even way after Islamic influence. It started off as a given title like Chaudhary, probably during late Mughal era, or British Raj. One thing that all Chaudhary's and Malik's have in common they are from areas that were firmly under strong Mughal or Raj influence and probably have an ancestor that worked in service to one or the other in some capacity. I assume most were revenue collectors on behalf of whichever crown.

The reason 'Mallik' exists within the vocabulary is because of islamic influence. Also, Malik = Raja, did those job holders within Hindu Raj use "Mallik" as title/lastname instead of something like "Raja"? I know that many south asians(hindu/muslims) also use 'Shah' as their title/lastname.

bol_nat
02-17-2018, 01:37 AM
Malik can mean many things in Arabic

1. Malik= owner
2. Maelek = king
3. Malak= angel
south Asians use “mallik”( mall- lik), esp Pakistanis, they probably are confused themselves! In many indo aryan languages, Malik means owner as well...

Malik/owner and Malik surname is pronounced differently. Its hard to confuse them.

bol_nat
02-17-2018, 01:40 AM
After conversion, the generic Hindu last names like Singh, Dev and Pal were dropped in favor of the Islamic 'Khan' it appears. The word itself has roots in the Turko-Mongol cultures.

The post-1947 generations, of the Rajputs at least, started dropping these Khan last names in favor of their clan names. If you go to my grandfather's generation and beyond, you will never find anyone using clan name as the last name. The same trend is now being adopted by the Pakistani Pushtoons of FATA wherein among the newer generation, you would very often find the clan name being the last name. Sometimes the name Khan is still added in the middle but often it is also not.

For another thread, It could also be interesting to explore why Northern Punjabi tribes started using clan names instead of Khan. In Sargodha and Jhang, people have been using clan names to recognize each other for a very long time. Reason for this difference could be that Northern Punjabis recognized each other via titles while the latter through clan names.

Khan being a Pushtoon title is an old wive's tale and I have no idea why we are even having this discussion in the age of Google.

Did pashtuns adopt Khan title after being in army of Khilji turks?

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 01:46 AM
Malik/owner and Malik surname is pronounced differently. Its hard to confuse them.


south Asians use “mallik”( mall- lik), esp. Pakistanis is that the correct Pakistani way of pronouncing it? I had one classmate of pakistani origin with that lastname and he pronounced it "mall- lik"

Does that Malik lastname mean owner/lord....? If it has the same meaning, why and when did they start to pronounce it differently?

bol_nat
02-17-2018, 01:55 AM
is that the correct Pakistani way of pronouncing it? I had one classmate of pakistani origin with that lastname and he pronounced it "mall- lik"

Does that Malik lastname mean owner/lord....? If it has the same meaning, why and when did they start to pronounce it differently?

mall-lik is pronounced for owner or when we say "allah ma-lik hai". Maa-lek is pronounced for someone surname but written as Malik. I know because there are lots of Malik awans and telis in Gujrat and people call them Mae-lek. It doesn't have same meaning. I personally had no idea about meaning of Ma-lek title used by awans or its origins but its not "owner" which is pronounced differently.

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 02:24 AM
The reason 'Mallik' exists within the vocabulary is because of islamic influence. Also, Malik = Raja, did those job holders within Hindu Raj use "Mallik" as title/lastname instead of something like "Raja"? I know that many south asians(hindu/muslims) also use 'Shah' as their title/lastname.


mall-lik is pronounced for owner or when we say "allah ma-lik hai". Maa-lek is pronounced for someone surname but written as Malik. I know because there are lots of Malik awans and telis in Gujrat and people call them Mae-lek. It doesn't have same meaning. I personally had no idea about meaning of Ma-lek title used by awans or its origins but its not "owner" which is pronounced differently.

EDIT: Urdu script messed up post... but...

They aren't the same word.



Mera Malik-makan (ghar ky malik) [like: maalik] ky naam Arshad Malik [like: Mullick].

میرا گھر کےمالک کا نام ارشد ملک ہے

My landlord's/homeowner's name is Arshad Malik.

Sometimes people spell the name like Mullick in English instead of Malik. There is no alif after meem, this is why you can't really confuse the two words when hearing them.

bol_nat
02-17-2018, 02:28 AM
They aren't the same word,
ملک v.
مالک

Mera Malik-makan
[like: maalik] ky naam haan Arshad Malik [like: Mullick].
Sometimes people spell the name like Mullick in English instead of Malik. There is no alif after meem, this is why you can't really confuse the two words when hearing them.

Agree with this.

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 02:42 AM
EDIT: Urdu script messed up post... but...

They aren't the same word.



Mera Malik-makan (ghar ky malik) [like: maalik] ky naam Arshad Malik [like: Mullick].

میرا گھر کےمالک کا نام ارشد ملک ہے

My landowner's name is Arshad Malik.

Sometimes people spell the name like Mullick in English instead of Malik. There is no alif after meem, this is why you can't really confuse the two words when hearing them.

Mera ghar ki malak ka nam Arshad Malkbe?

Heir of Gandhara
02-17-2018, 02:47 AM
Did pashtuns adopt Khan title after being in army of Khilji turks?

Khan is the title Turkic and Mongol people used for their Kings. Khan means King and Khagan means King of Kings (kind of like Raja means King and the title used by Jamwal kings Raja-e-Rajgan meaning King of Kings). Now if I remember correctly, the first 'Khanates' or 'Khaganates' were formed by the ancestors of the Mongols but those were also soon followed by the establishment of Turkic ones.

And since Afghanistan has mostly been ruled by peoples of Turkic origin, if I were a betting man I would place my bets on them for making the title more common there. Khiljis, Ghauris, Timurids and even Mongols could be the suspects. I cannot remember of any Pushtoon using the title before the advent of Lodhis right now but if I do, I will update this message. It could be interesting to research who could be the first Pushtoons to use the last name. Parasar might know. It also becomes difficult because many Pushtoons in Pakistan don't keep proper genealogical records from what I have observed.

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 02:53 AM
Mera ghar ki malak ka nam Arshad Malkbe?

Second to last letter is "ha" ھ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%BE) or ہ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%81) -- but is usually do chasma ha is what it's referring to (the 2-'eyed' one)... Urdu prefers to write "ha" like what you see written ها when connected with certain letters. Now I can't render the same character in Urdu again.. it's writing it the normal "do-chasma" way lol.. oh well you get the idea.
The last latter is bari ya ے (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%92)
Mera ghar ky (not kee) maalik ka naam Arshad mulik hy.
When ya is written like that (bari ya) it doesn't act like an -eeee (choti ya ی (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%8C)) sound, it becomes a ayyyy sound to the letter before it (but not always...) so the kaaf+yaa became "ky/kai" and the haa+yaa became "hy/hai".

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 03:04 AM
Last letters are "haa" ھ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%BE) or ہ‬ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%81) and bari ya ے (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%92)
Mera ghar ky (not kee) maalik ka naam Arshad mulik hy.
When ya is written like that (bari ya) it doesn't act like an -eeee (choti ya ی (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DB%8C)) sound, it becomes a ayyyy sound to the letter before it. so the kaaf+yaa became "ky/kai" and the haa+yaa became "hy/hai".

lol ok, I only know the pashto way of pronouncing when I read the 'Squiggly'. I don't understand choti ya etc properly

But, I try remembering this

ي marufa ya - i
ې majhula ya - e
ی mulayana ay -y
ۍ sajena ya -ey
ی(with hamja) kaddwala ya -ey

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 03:16 AM
lol ok, I only know the pashto way of pronouncing when I read the 'Squiggly'. I don't understand choti ya etc properly

But, I try remembering this

ي marufa ya - i
ې majhula ya - e
ی mulayana ay -y
ۍ sajena ya -ey
ی(with hamja) kaddwala ya -ey

It is a bit different in Pashto compared to Urdu, especially when it comes to the "let's divert from Perso-Arabic to make our our sounds work" letters. Because each language decides to add an extra dot here or there to mean something arbitrary. So there isn't any set rules. Except I guess three dots on a wau = V. Even in the other regional languages in Pakistan the little symbols to the normal letters make things change a lot. Sindhi has something like 52 letters, and if you try to read it like your read Urdu, you're screwed, lol. You kind have to learn the letters that were formed for a specific language, in each language, separately. In Pashto, the symbol changes on the ya denote much larger range of sounds, much more than for other languages. It's one thing I think anyone notices the first time they look at written Pashto, how many kinds of yaa letters/symbols there are.

Probably kakiasumi has more knowledge with this, as he may be able to read some Pashto.

Kurd
02-17-2018, 03:24 AM
In Arabic;
Malik = King, Maalik=Owner

With regards to Khan it is used from W Asia to S Asia.

Some notable historical Kurds with "Khan" name:


Ganj Ali Khan - Mid 1500s - Friend of Shah Abbas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj_Ali_Khan


Ali Mardan Khan - late 1500s - Safavid Governor of Kandahar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mardan_Khan

Bedir Khan - 1803

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedr_Khan_Bey


Karim Khan Zand - Founder of Zand Dynasty - early 1700s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karim_Khan_Zand


Shir Khan
Karim Khan
Daud Khan
https://books.google.com/books?id=dgDi9qFT41oC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=kurds+khan&source=bl&ots=Ccwdg1YaMM&sig=28RvbAvtFifZhzKYaa8fSpvEtUM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCy4Wc-6vZAhUQ92MKHc3dAogQ6AEIdzAH#v=onepage&q=kurds%20khan&f=false


Edit: Also city name in Iraqi Kurdistan, Darbandi Khan written as Darbandikhan

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 03:32 AM
It is a bit different in Pashto compared to Urdu, especially when it comes to the "let's divert from Perso-Arabic to make our our sounds work" letters. Because each language decides to add an extra dot here or there to mean something arbitrary. So there isn't any set rules. Except I guess three dots on a wau = V. Even in the other regional languages in Pakistan the little symbols to the normal letters make things change a lot. Sindhi has something like 52 letters, and if you try to read it like your read Urdu, you're screwed, lol. You kind have to learn the letters that were formed for a specific language, in each language, separately. In Pashto, the symbol changes on the ya denote much larger range of sounds, much more than for other languages. It's one thing I think anyone notices the first time they look at written Pashto, how many kinds of yaa letters/symbols there are.

Probably kakiasumi has more knowledge with this, as he may be able to read some Pashto.

you mean the Fatah, kasra dumma stuff? yeah, I try looking for those, written farsi that I read just assumes the sound at times. I always read like a kid, make out the actual word and re-read it smh
Yeah, Pashto has many sounds and dialects so we make different sound on SH, KH, G

ش - SH
س - S
ښ SH xh
ږ ze ga
ډ dda retroflex
ټ tta retroflex
ړ rda retroflex
ڼ nuddn retroflex

Kulin
02-17-2018, 03:37 AM
Khan is the lastname many people who claim/suspect "Pashtun" (esp. South Asians) descent use at large.

I don't care what tribe names you use, it doesn't matter. Many Baloch use ... zai as their tribal name, they aren't Pashtun, they are Baloch. Sounds like more of an emotional melodrama over why someone who ain't following Pashtun culture should be Pashtun because they belong to some bonafide lineage. Pashtun ethnic identity without the language and culture, is like a person without a limb, unless they were deaf/dumb why wound't they wanna speak the language? It defines their cultural identity, many Pashtuns are bilingual/multilingual why not speak the language and follow the culture, if you care to identify as a Pashtun because that's what being a Pashtun is all about?


Your ethnic roots forgetting candidate: his ethnic identity would be just Afghan/Pakistani... where is that root forgetting candidate from? unless he is in anthrogenica or 23&me or ... and has to explain about his roots that too if he wishes to explain say to someone like Khanabadoshi, and for that he will waste his precious time asking his parents, sounds absurd since he forgot his roots already why bother? Even a Pathan bengali will say that he is a Pashtun, Pashtun empires were there and ofc some lineages might be true hence their ethnic background is Pashtun/Pathan by default just like the root forgetting bonafide bloke.
Scenario: the Bengali person’s ancestsor didn’t continue the Pashtun culture. Sounds like heard that story somewhere.:/

I am done with this bollywood sounding melodrama. You might wanna go to pashtunforums or whatever forums just so that candidate gets valid entry into Pashtunistan central, I told you what my elders taught me, I don't care to sell my viewpoint to you, I am just sharing what I know and was taught.

Disclaimer: genetics might portray me an a bonafide Pashtun but I ain't a bonafide Pashtun culturally. I respect what the culture stands for as it did since antiquity.
And sure you can have the last word apparently it means something here for posters like you who are like broken records.


In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 04:09 AM
Sometimes I forget I'm a moderator.
It just occurred to me I should give myself an infraction for going way off topic in a thread dedicated to Hepthalite legacy in India.
We are sitting here talking about alphabets, Kings, Khans and Jatts.

Perhaps let's keep this thread true to its namesake and make a new thread for alphabet soup and Lindsey Lohanna's newest musical debut.

bmoney
02-17-2018, 09:59 AM
In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.

Really.. even when it comes to Brahmins?

bmoney
02-17-2018, 09:59 AM
Sometimes I forget I'm a moderator.
It just occurred to me I should give myself an infraction for going way off topic in a thread dedicated to Hepthalite legacy in India.
We are sitting here talking about alphabets, Kings, Khans and Jatts.

Perhaps let's keep this thread true to its namesake and make a new thread for alphabet soup and Lindsey Lohanna's newest musical debut.

LMAO had to kill the fun didnt ya

bmoney
02-17-2018, 10:10 AM
The reason 'Mallik' exists within the vocabulary is because of islamic influence. Also, Malik = Raja, did those job holders within Hindu Raj use "Mallik" as title/lastname instead of something like "Raja"? I know that many south asians(hindu/muslims) also use 'Shah' as their title/lastname.

Shah in Hinduism like Amit Shah means something different:

"Shah is an Indian surname. It is often confused with the Persian "Shah" meaning "King". It is derived from Sanskrit Sadhu (meaning gentleman[1])."

Often used by Jains and Baniyas

bmoney
02-17-2018, 10:20 AM
I found this interesting story about a Mann Jatt dude who is now Muslim. From what I understand the Mann are based from this village/area? Thought it would be of interest to you. There is another one about a Grewal. The series is long, there are lots of videos, but I think some of us should go through them. It's a treasure trove, a bunch of old men who have a strong grasp on their familial histories in Punjab. In some of these videos they are describing exact muhallahs where such and such people lived.


https://youtu.be/YWCVLp6qroo

One of my friends is a Pakistani Rajput/Sheikh

His family is a recent conversion within the last 4 gens originally from Amritsar

So he still has Sikh uncles in Amritsar and is able to get a visa to India easy due to family

Another Punjabi Rajput friend is quite proud of his Punjabi identity - he even traces his lineage back to a pindh in Jalandhar district

He says hates Karachi and Karachi people likewise hate Punjabis

I never knew conversions happened so recently or that identity was so strong across borders

poi
02-17-2018, 02:16 PM
Shah in Hinduism like Amit Shah means something different:

"Shah is an Indian surname. It is often confused with the Persian "Shah" meaning "King". It is derived from Sanskrit Sadhu (meaning gentleman[1])."

Often used by Jains and Baniyas

Yep. But in case of the Nepali Hindu Shah dynasty(and their descendants), it was indeed the Persian Kshatriya 'Shah', apparently given by the Delhi king.

parasar
02-17-2018, 04:34 PM
Yep. But in case of the Nepali Hindu Shah dynasty(and their descendants), it was indeed the Persian Kshatriya 'Shah', apparently given by the Delhi king.

Many of my direct paternal (Chainpur Eksariya) and close relatives (Hathwa Bhagocchia) use Sahi (not Shahi).
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ck4jmD7H34UC&pg=PA75

Well before the Delhi kings the Sahi title was being used - again in the Sahi (not Shahi) form.
Eg. Paramabhattaraka Maharajadhiraja Paramesvara Sri Bhimadeva Sahi of Kabul.
"sahi in inscriptions" https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA125

Sapporo
02-17-2018, 05:06 PM
I found this interesting story about a Mann Jatt dude who is now Muslim. From what I understand the Mann are based from this village/area? Thought it would be of interest to you. There is another one about a Grewal. The series is long, there are lots of videos, but I think some of us should go through them. It's a treasure trove, a bunch of old men who have a strong grasp on their familial histories in Punjab. In some of these videos they are describing exact muhallahs where such and such people lived.


https://youtu.be/YWCVLp6qroo

I honestly have no idea what to make of this. I'll have to converse with some of my maternal uncles as I know very little about their origins outside of living in Northern Rajasthan (Jatt Sikh areas) prior to immigrating to California and their pind being in Hoshiarpur. Interestingly enough, I actually have Mann on both sides of the family. My father's paternal 1st cousin are Manns too.


As for Grewal, I forgot to add that I share with a few unrelated Grewal on 23andMe. One of them sent me this message on the origin/founding of the clan:


This is something from the Gujjarwal.com website...its a good look:

Gujjarwal was founded by Chowdhry Gujjar around 1469, not as precise. He was a Chandel Rajput from the Rajasthan State of North West India. There is no particular theory why Chowdhry Gujjar decided to lay roots here, some people believe Chandel Rajputs were forced to migrate out of Rajasthan because of a conflict between two Maharajas (Raja Jai Singh and Prithvi Raj Chohan); Chandels had failed to play a neutral role during this conflict. Chandel Rajputs had owned a Riaset (Kingdom), which they lost to Muslim invader Mohammad Gouri. Gouri was invited to attack India by Raja Jai Singh. Chandel Rajputs abandoned their Kingdom and got scattered all over the country. Some of them went settled along the Yamuna River, and some went to the Bilaspur State (today in Himachal). And hence settled in this Malwa region. Some people believe that while traveling through this region, a wheel of Baba Gujjar's cart broke off, and staying overnight made up his mind to settle here. Well, this was the place where Chandel Rajputs got established, and later were called Grewals. Gujjar was an adventurous and brave Jatt. He acquired 10800 acres of land and established Gujjarwal. Later founded were other 64 villages including Kilaraipur, Narangwal, Lohgarh, Phallewal etc. (a belt being called villages of Grewals) 10800 acres of land was further subdivided between village Gujjarwal and Kilaraipur, 5400 acres each. Today Gujjarwal owns 2714 acres, and Narangwal, Lohgarh and Mehma Singh Walla combined share 2686 acres (Gujjarwal shares its 5400 acres of land with Narangwal, Lohgarh and Mehma Singh Walla), and the rest of 5400 acres belong to Kilaraipur. Baba Gujjar married twice. He had five sons from the first marriage:

Macchi, Longu, Sohan, Dolu, and Jalal.

His second wife was from village Dango. Chowdhry of Raikot, Rai Firoz, attended this marriage. There is an interesting fact the way this marriage took place.. One day chowdhry of Raikot (a friend of Chowdhry Gujjar) was traveling from Gujjarwal to Raikot. On his way at village Dango he noticed a girl had stopped a runaway buffalo by holding the tying rope under her foot. Chowdhry was impressed with the strength of this girl and followed her to her home. He proposed her parents if they can marry their daughter to his friend, Chowdhary Gujjar (Chowdhry Gujjar's first wife had died at that time). Rai Fatta and Rai Lala were born from this marriage.
Chowdhry Gujjar soon died after their birth.

Rai Fatta and Rai Lala were expelled out of Gujjarwal by their step brothers. Along with their mother, they went to their mother's village Dango and grew up there. They were strong sons of a strong mother. They defeated the Rajputs of nearest village Joranhan, and thus were recognized by the Mogul Empire Akbar. By defeating their stepbrothers, they took back the control of Gujjarwal. The five stepbrothers moved out to some where across the Yamuna River. Rai Malla stayed at Gujjarwal while Rai Fatta founded village Kilaraipur.

Again, the information points to a claimed Chandel Rajput origin. I still have my doubts on its authenticity.

I do know for a fact though that the Grewal headquarters are Ludhiana (where my paternal family is from; specifically Gujjarwal). Ludhiana is known specifically for its large concentration of Grewal and Gill.

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 05:44 PM
I honestly have no idea what to make of this. I'll have to converse with some of my maternal uncles as I know very little about their origins outside of living in Northern Rajasthan (Jatt Sikh areas) prior to immigrating to California and their pind being in Hoshiarpur. Interestingly enough, I actually have Mann on both sides of the family. My father's paternal 1st cousin are Manns too.


As for Grewal, I forgot to add that I share with a few unrelated Grewal on 23andMe. One of them sent me this message on the origin/founding of the clan:



Again, the information points to a claimed Chandel Rajput origin. I still have my doubts on its authenticity.

I do know for a fact though that the Grewal headquarters are Ludhiana (where my paternal family is from; specifically Gujjarwal). Ludhiana is known specifically for its large concentration of Grewal and Gill.

I will try to find the Grewal videos. As far as the Mann goes, it seems like all people involved in this video make it seem like Mannawala is where the clan originates from? Right? I mean the the other guys in the video are from India and they travel all over Punjab talking about this stuff, so it seems like this is some accepted thing.

parasar
02-17-2018, 06:18 PM
I honestly have no idea what to make of this. I'll have to converse with some of my maternal uncles as I know very little about their origins outside of living in Northern Rajasthan (Jatt Sikh areas) prior to immigrating to California and their pind being in Hoshiarpur. Interestingly enough, I actually have Mann on both sides of the family. My father's paternal 1st cousin are Manns too.


As for Grewal, I forgot to add that I share with a few unrelated Grewal on 23andMe. One of them sent me this message on the origin/founding of the clan:



Again, the information points to a claimed Chandel Rajput origin. I still have my doubts on its authenticity.

I do know for a fact though that the Grewal headquarters are Ludhiana (where my paternal family is from; specifically Gujjarwal). Ludhiana is known specifically for its large concentration of Grewal and Gill.

When Griffin recorded the histories of the Punjab clans, almost all had similar stories - migrations from Malwa, Bundelkhand, Bhagelkhand etc. - when large cities (Ujjain, Dhar, Munj, Bhata, Khajuraho, Garha, Bhojpur, Bhumihar) in central India declined.

Lepel Griffin on the early history of the Panjab Chiefs says: "Lastly came the emigrations from the Deccan, extending over a long series of years, from the tenth to the fifteenth century of the Christian era, when Rajputs of many and various races came to the Panjab, the descendants of whom are the Jats, Tawanas, Sials"

Most of the core (Agra, Delhi, Jaunpur, Allahabad) was firmly in control of the central authorities so they settled in the periphery - the Punjab, Bihar, Himachal, Nepal etc.

See also Ujjainiyas: https://books.google.com/books?id=QVA0JAzQJkYC&pg=PA77

MonkeyDLuffy
02-18-2018, 02:31 AM
I will try to find the Grewal videos. As far as the Mann goes, it seems like all people involved in this video make it seem like Mannawala is where the clan originates from? Right? I mean the the other guys in the video are from India and they travel all over Punjab talking about this stuff, so it seems like this is some accepted thing.

You are posting my stuff lol. I have watched all Punjabi lehar videos. Nassir Dhillon is doing an amazing job. Here are couple of points I'll mention after watching all videos, especially of Muslim jatts:

1: They converted in past 200-300 years.
2: They converted from Sikhism.
3: They know who they converted from, their Sikh ancestor name.

Except some Moley jats who were forcefully converted by Mughals from Hindus, Punjabi muslim jatts seems to be converts from Sikhs. In one video of a village in Layallpur, Gill clan used to dominate it, both Sikh gills and muslim gills lived side by side. They both were from same family tree. One converted in past 300 years, but they still kept the relationship as family.

prashantvaidwan
02-18-2018, 02:41 AM
Griffin noted down just bard stories .. It is a bigger shit than Jatland..... There are hundreds of counter views of many historians...need to read those before propagating this griffin stale stories.... Allahabad ,jaunpur.....lol.....changing entire route of migration.... Can not be explained from any theory except bardic...
.....Rajput as a caste itself came into existence after 16th century... Jats as a community are much older..and Northwest is their land... . Hardly any jat clan originated from Rajput..But many jats to Rajput. ..truly saying, these were just clans/tribes who came later under jatt or Rajput or both umbrella.. Jats mostly absorbed from North West and Rajputs
from central india also.. That why they have more diversity.... Can anyone show me any historical record where any present Rajput clan of Pakistan is mentioned as Rajput..? I went through babarnama.. Janjuas are no where addressed as Rajput.. Just mentioned as an independent clan

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 03:07 AM
Griffin noted down just bard stories .. It is a bigger shit than Jatland..... There are hundreds of counter views of many historians...need to read those before propagating this griffin stale stories.... Allahabad ,jaunpur.....lol.....changing entire route of migration.... Can not be explained from any theory except bardic...
.....Rajput as a caste itself came into existence after 16th century... Jats as a community are much older..and Northwest is their land... . Hardly any jat clan originated from Rajput..But many jats to Rajput. ..truly saying, these were just clans/tribes who came later under jatt or Rajput or both umbrella.. Jats mostly absorbed from North West and Rajputs
from central india also.. That why they have more diversity.... Can anyone show me any historical record where any present Rajput clan of Pakistan is mentioned as Rajput..? I went through babarnama.. Janjuas are no where addressed as Rajput.. Just mentioned as an independent clan

I can. Do you accept British sources? Because if Rajput identity solidified in and after the 16th century, British sources are probably the most thorough on that subject matter.

But this could be a good discussion for the South Asian Institute sticky post. Can we move it there?

pegasus
02-18-2018, 03:38 AM
Griffin noted down just bard stories .. It is a bigger shit than Jatland..... There are hundreds of counter views of many historians...need to read those before propagating this griffin stale stories.... Allahabad ,jaunpur.....lol.....changing entire route of migration.... Can not be explained from any theory except bardic...
.....Rajput as a caste itself came into existence after 16th century... Jats as a community are much older..and Northwest is their land... . Hardly any jat clan originated from Rajput..But many jats to Rajput. ..truly saying, these were just clans/tribes who came later under jatt or Rajput or both umbrella.. Jats mostly absorbed from North West and Rajputs
from central india also.. That why they have more diversity.... Can anyone show me any historical record where any present Rajput clan of Pakistan is mentioned as Rajput..? I went through babarnama.. Janjuas are no where addressed as Rajput.. Just mentioned as an independent clan

Putting Jatland and British academics on the same level is very unfair, granted 19th/early 20th century British academics have flawed theories, they did make some very accurate observations.
Rajputs seem to form a looser ruling class who don't follow any strict pattern, it seems titular more than anything. Rajputs do not descend from Jats, or vice versa. Though Jats seem to exist outside the varna system, even though ironically they are very endogamous. They remind me very much of Lower Egyptian Fellahin , a sizeable Peasant population which lived outside the mainstream society.

bol_nat
02-18-2018, 12:57 PM
Griffin noted down just bard stories .. It is a bigger shit than Jatland..... There are hundreds of counter views of many historians...need to read those before propagating this griffin stale stories.... Allahabad ,jaunpur.....lol.....changing entire route of migration.... Can not be explained from any theory except bardic...
.....Rajput as a caste itself came into existence after 16th century... Jats as a community are much older..and Northwest is their land... . Hardly any jat clan originated from Rajput..But many jats to Rajput. ..truly saying, these were just clans/tribes who came later under jatt or Rajput or both umbrella.. Jats mostly absorbed from North West and Rajputs
from central india also.. That why they have more diversity.... Can anyone show me any historical record where any present Rajput clan of Pakistan is mentioned as Rajput..? I went through babarnama.. Janjuas are no where addressed as Rajput.. Just mentioned as an independent clan

When British conquered punjab from Sikh kingdom they were already established in hindi belt for centuries which historically was dominated by Rajput kingdoms who had their own armies. This wasn't the case in punjab/Pakistan where I can't think of single rajput kingdom. This is how British came up with rajput origin theories of pretty much must of tribes in punjab and even pashtuns in some cases. And their migration pattern from central India to punjab which doesn't make sense. Must people in rural areas at best knows about their own small tehsil people at must, for them claiming to have migrated from places with in north central India and naming them is hard to believe.

I doubt British officials bothered to research to such extent, they just went along counting tribes and guessing their origins.

prashantvaidwan
02-18-2018, 04:46 PM
Comparing jats with fellahin is idiotic.... Leave apart punjab, where jats are dominating force for centuries, Before 15th century a sizeable portion of rajasthan was ruled by jats.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_states_in_Rajasthan
Even in the 600 years muslim rule, none dared to interfere in jat affair.. They were the landowners with a loose control from Delhi sultanate.. Jats around Delhi has their own centuries old democratic system as khaps.. Resisted all the invaders from North west.. When rajputs made matrimonial Alliance with mughals, they revolted against mughals and established their states.. Do I need to mention Them?
Regarding endogamy, jats always took pride in their cultural institution... albeit not very true but racial superiority.. .. And they never accepted Brahmanical setup.. Status of brahmins stoop down merely to beggars in jat dominating land.. .. Few Ppl need to read abt jats before saying anything nonsense

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 05:45 PM
When British conquered punjab from Sikh kingdom they were already established in hindi belt for centuries which historically was dominated by Rajput kingdoms who had their own armies. This wasn't the case in punjab/Pakistan where I can't think of single rajput kingdom. This is how British came up with rajput origin theories of pretty much must of tribes in punjab and even pashtuns in some cases. And their migration pattern from central India to punjab which doesn't make sense. Must people in rural areas at best knows about their own small tehsil people at must, for them claiming to have migrated from places with in north central India and naming them is hard to believe.

I doubt British officials bothered to research to such extent, they just went along counting tribes and guessing their origins.

Bol_nat, are you counting the Western and Eastern Hills plus Jammu and Haryana in Punjab or not?

British mostly just wrote what they heard from the people and made it very clear through their language where they speculated. They were star record keeper and nobody can take this away from them. This Jatt-being-assigned-Rajput ancestry was mostly done by Denzil Ibbetson who was one of the early 'ethnographers.' Denzil's work was disproved on my accounts by the later day British District Gazetteer writers themselves. Gazetteers, mind you, were not some random hobby documents but rather were used for policy formulation by the Parliament in the U.K. So if you go through the Gazetteers it becomes apparent that it was the Jatts themselves who frequently were returning themselves as Rajputs and not the British doing that on their behalf. British themselves rubbished many such claims in the speculative notes they wrote after giving the origin stories as told by the people being interviewed.

Please note that I personally think the Martial Race theory could be a possible reason for this and not some sort of an inferiority complex.

Sikh Empire was a very short-lived one-man empire so if you want to really understand the society of Punjab post fall of the Mughals, you will have to study the time of Misls immediately predating the formation of the Sikh Empire. Now I myself have not read about the Misls in much detail, but since I am talking to you Bol_nat, I will just tell you something about your own district of Gujrat. Gujrat district was under Gakhars before the Misls captured it. Gakhars had captured it from the Chibs who, in turn, had captured it from the Afghans. Gujranwala next-door, too, was Sikh Misls vs Muslim Chattha Jatts vs Bhatti Rajputs.

If you tell me what you consider Punjab, I can maybe remind you of a few Rajput states therein.

Take this discussion to South Asian Institute if you guys want to discuss this more, please.

Hon tribe of Jhelum could be descendants of Hephthalites purely going by the name. The pronunciation rhymes with the English word 'goon' but ending with the letter r sound as in the Urdu word larki.

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 05:47 PM
Comparing jats with fellahin is idiotic.... Leave apart punjab, where jats are dominating force for centuries, Before 15th century a sizeable portion of rajasthan was ruled by jats.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_states_in_Rajasthan
Even in the 600 years muslim rule, none dared to interfere in jat affair.. They were the landowners with a loose control from Delhi sultanate.. Jats around Delhi has their own centuries old democratic system as khaps.. Resisted all the invaders from North west.. When rajputs made matrimonial Alliance with mughals, they revolted against mughals and established their states.. Do I need to mention Them?
Regarding endogamy, jats always took pride in their cultural institution... albeit not very true but racial superiority.. .. And they never accepted Brahmanical setup.. Status of brahmins stoop down merely to beggars in jat dominating land.. .. Few Ppl need to read abt jats before saying anything nonsense


Jatts are number 1, and every one else is number 10 and Rajputs number 100? Teray sath full agreement hai mera. Khush hai? Ab agli baat please uss dosray thread mein karein please.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-18-2018, 06:09 PM
.....
Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.

Seems generalisation. The practice may be more common in bigger cities. I have stayed in North Bengal and Northeast and almost never seen any inter caste relationship among Bengalis there go down smoothly without some people bringing up the point. From minor displeasure to disownments and forced breakups. I've seen it all. Not just a Brahmin-non Brahmin thing, I've seen this between other castes as well. Sometimes, ironically it is the upper caste who are more liberal.

Having stayed in other parts of India, I've seen many Brahmin-Khatri or Khatri-Bania pairings as well.

Kulin
02-18-2018, 06:36 PM
Really.. even when it comes to Brahmins?

Well, I mean, most still marry within their communities, but there are significant intercaste marriages, with the most common pairing among them being Kayastha-Brahmin.


Seems generalisation. The practice may be more common in bigger cities. I have stayed in North Bengal and Northeast and almost never seen any inter caste relationship among Bengalis there go down smoothly without some people bringing up the point. From minor displeasure to disownments and forced breakups. I've seen it all. Not just a Brahmin-non Brahmin thing, I've seen this between other castes as well. Sometimes, ironically it is the upper caste who are more liberal.

Having stayed in other parts of India, I've seen many Brahmin-Khatri or Khatri-Bania pairings as well.

Well, of course, I'm not saying Namasudras are marrying Brahmins in large droves, but it's true that a large section of people in big cities marry intercaste, and have no qualms about it. This is more common than other regions in India. Brahmins-Kayastha marriage is fairly common and lot of my friends are children from that pairing. Villages of course would be more conservative.



Edit: Also, sorry for offtopic.

parasar
02-19-2018, 04:54 AM
... I went through babarnama.. Janjuas are no where addressed as Rajput.. Just mentioned as an independent clan

Who is mentioned or addressed as a Rajput by Babar in Babarnama?

https://ia801403.us.archive.org/15/items/baburnamainengli01babuuoft/baburnamainengli01babuuoft.pdf

https://ia801406.us.archive.org/14/items/baburnamainengli02babuuoft/baburnamainengli02babuuoft.pdf

pegasus
02-19-2018, 07:58 AM
Comparing jats with fellahin is idiotic.... Leave apart punjab, where jats are dominating force for centuries, Before 15th century a sizeable portion of rajasthan was ruled by jats.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_states_in_Rajasthan
Even in the 600 years muslim rule, none dared to interfere in jat affair.. They were the landowners with a loose control from Delhi sultanate.. Jats around Delhi has their own centuries old democratic system as khaps.. Resisted all the invaders from North west.. When rajputs made matrimonial Alliance with mughals, they revolted against mughals and established their states.. Do I need to mention Them?
Regarding endogamy, jats always took pride in their cultural institution... albeit not very true but racial superiority.. .. And they never accepted Brahmanical setup.. Status of brahmins stoop down merely to beggars in jat dominating land.. .. Few Ppl need to read abt jats before saying anything nonsense

Actually you seem butthurt and pathetic, unfortunately Jats do not play much of a role historically , their prominence only comes to the fore during British colonialism. There are only few mentions of them prior to that, and mainly its mainly by Mughals and the Delhi Sultans brutally suppressing revolts by them around Kaithal and Mathura since they were subjects. Also this notion as Jats as defenders of the faith really has NO traction, your sordid and pathetic attempts of self caste glorification is hilarious. You do realize there are millions of Muslim Jats right, so your logic makes no sense. Also Mughals did marry Rajput women from Rajasthan for political alliances , because they formed the Royal ruling class, why would Mughal rulers marry Jat women living in villages, its not of consequence or importance to them from a political perspective. You seem to have a hatred for Muslims and Brahmins for whatever reasons. If the Brahmins were indeed beggars in the " jat dominating " land why are the Jats in those so called regions you mentioned following a Brahminical version of Hinduism then , which more or less places Brahmins at the apex. Try being objective and think before spewing nonsense.
As for the Fellahin comparison its very apt, both are peasants and both had little in shaping mainstream societies. Also FYI, anyone on wikipedia can write what they want and the link you sent is a poor one.

Heir of Gandhara
02-19-2018, 08:43 AM
He's an obvious troll.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-19-2018, 09:47 AM
Actually you seem butthurt ...

LOL @Butthurt... :biggrin1:

prashantvaidwan
02-19-2018, 12:16 PM
@Pegasus ..u seem frustrated... Lol... Did u even go through the references? .. Do u even know about jangladesh?... I know you are prone to deny all references... Filled with hatred against jats... and teaching me..?? . Where did u see the hatred against Muslims in my post?..I don't discriminate jats on the basis of religion.. I talked about brahmanic fold not brahmins...brahmins as a priest did not have much importance in the land of jats because jats did not identify themselves.. enormously with the strict form of Hinduism...
I have also issues with false glorification as you have. Almost all of the rajputana states made matrimonial Alliance with mughals.. Though they are depicted as the protector of religion..how is this a baseless statement?.. .. Why don't u come up with a list of wars won against the invaders..? Most of rajputana states were petty feudals of mughals and later British..battle of haldighati got ended in less than an hour and those revolters of mathura provided tough resistance for months... And established their state with sword and blood under the nose of most powerful Delhi sultanate..

Brahmanical fold is just a part of Hinduism... Brahmanic should not taken as brahmins.. Brahmanic is the term used for the endorsed superstitions and rituals to exploit poor and illiterate.. Even a jat can be creator of this exploitation in disguise.. And there are many jats who are busy in this religious profession..
There were hardly any temple in jat villages 100 years before.. Jat worships their ancestors and are part of Hinduism without Brahmanical dominance.. Though it is being taken over by recent advancement of right wing propaganda..

prashantvaidwan
02-19-2018, 12:22 PM
@gandhara.. Don't know what prompted you to write again even after all the agreement and need of discussion on other thread....lol..

prashantvaidwan
02-19-2018, 12:28 PM
Move on with beating your drums.. Height of intolerance and bigotry.. Thanks for bearing with me for this span... You are free of trolling now.. Be happy

MonkeyDLuffy
02-19-2018, 03:08 PM
Prashant, its nice to feel pride in your background, but lets make sure it doesnt turn into too much pride. We don't want any bans happening here. Lets keep the discussion civil. If you have sources backing up your claim, post them along with such claims.

pegasus
02-19-2018, 04:02 PM
@Pegasus ..u seem frustrated... Lol... Did u even go through the references? .. Do u even know about jangladesh?... I know you are prone to deny all references... Filled with hatred against jats... and teaching me..?? . Where did u see the hatred against Muslims in my post?..I don't discriminate jats on the basis of religion.. I talked about brahmanic fold not brahmins...brahmins as a priest did not have much importance in the land of jats because jats did not identify themselves.. enormously with the strict form of Hinduism...
I have also issues with false glorification as you have. Almost all of the rajputana states made matrimonial Alliance with mughals.. Though they are depicted as the protector of religion..how is this a baseless statement?.. .. Why don't u come up with a list of wars won against the invaders..? Most of rajputana states were petty feudals of mughals and later British..battle of haldighati got ended in less than an hour and those revolters of mathura provided tough resistance for months... And established their state with sword and blood under the nose of most powerful Delhi sultanate..

Brahmanical fold is just a part of Hinduism... Brahmanic should not taken as brahmins.. Brahmanic is the term used for the endorsed superstitions and rituals to exploit poor and illiterate.. Even a jat can be creator of this exploitation in disguise.. And there are many jats who are busy in this religious profession..
There were hardly any temple in jat villages 100 years before.. Jat worships their ancestors and are part of Hinduism without Brahmanical dominance.. Though it is being taken over by recent advancement of right wing propaganda..

I cannot argue with nonsense , you got served already. There is nothing else to say. I mean your up there with that other dude who was posting Telugu music videos to show how a a certain caste were related to Armenians.

You post bizarre stuff like this:

I have also seen the old threads and seen the frustration of the self declared Aryan people....though their is nothing Aryan in them ..born from the mouth of brahma, fireborn, suryavanshi , chandravansi...though in reality , majority of them are austro Asiatic people or just the founder effect...weak ..short in stature..and absurd in looks.
and this is how they kill their frustrations

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13101-Y-Haplogroup-L-is-caucasus&p=336827&viewfull=1#post336827

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-19-2018, 08:12 PM
Well, I mean, most still marry within their communities, but there are significant intercaste marriages, with the most common pairing among them being Kayastha-Brahmin.

Well, of course, I'm not saying Namasudras are marrying Brahmins in large droves, but it's true that a large section of people in big cities marry intercaste, and have no qualms about it. This is more common than other regions in India. Brahmins-Kayastha marriage is fairly common and lot of my friends are children from that pairing. Villages of course would be more conservative.

Edit: Also, sorry for offtopic.

When did Kayasthas become Namasudras? :confused:. By big cities I meant Kolkata and the other metros where people are quite liberal and these kind of pairings are quite common. Thing is, Kolkata culture is so much conspicuous that average Indians(even including Bengalis) think Bengali culture = Kolkata culture which is not the case ofcourse. I've never seen a Shudra marrying a Brahmin in Northern Bengal or Northeast. Brahmin-Kayastha pairings do happen in there but seldom go down smoothly whether in urban or rural areas. I've seen these a lot in Kolkata though. After all Kayasthas are also Upper Castes. I know a friend from Assam whose mum is a Brahmin. Most people from his maternal side don't keep in touch with them. Another Bengali Ghosh friend from a village in Bankura got forcibly separated from his Brahmin girlfriend. I've even also seen that 'all people from an ancestral village are relatives' type of a thing in atleast two cases among Northeast Bengalis.

It is not uncommon in other Indian linguistic groups. I stayed in Punjab and Delhi. While most Punjabi friends from Punjab married within their castes but I've seen Jat Sikhs, Khukhran marrying outside of their caste. And this phenomenon in much higher outside of Punjab. Most of my Punjabi friends from other states are married to non-Punjabis. It seems the higher incidence of marrying outside of someone's own caste is proportional to the distance from their home town/village .
;)

Heir of Gandhara
02-19-2018, 08:28 PM
@Pegasus ..u seem frustrated... Lol... Did u even go through the references? .. Do u even know about jangladesh?... I know you are prone to deny all references... Filled with hatred against jats... and teaching me..?? . Where did u see the hatred against Muslims in my post?..I don't discriminate jats on the basis of religion.. I talked about brahmanic fold not brahmins...brahmins as a priest did not have much importance in the land of jats because jats did not identify themselves.. enormously with the strict form of Hinduism...
I have also issues with false glorification as you have. Almost all of the rajputana states made matrimonial Alliance with mughals.. Though they are depicted as the protector of religion..how is this a baseless statement?.. .. Why don't u come up with a list of wars won against the invaders..? Most of rajputana states were petty feudals of mughals and later British..battle of haldighati got ended in less than an hour and those revolters of mathura provided tough resistance for months... And established their state with sword and blood under the nose of most powerful Delhi sultanate..

Brahmanical fold is just a part of Hinduism... Brahmanic should not taken as brahmins.. Brahmanic is the term used for the endorsed superstitions and rituals to exploit poor and illiterate.. Even a jat can be creator of this exploitation in disguise.. And there are many jats who are busy in this religious profession..
There were hardly any temple in jat villages 100 years before.. Jat worships their ancestors and are part of Hinduism without Brahmanical dominance.. Though it is being taken over by recent advancement of right wing propaganda..

Ir appears is if he an issue with Rajputs and Brahmins. Is this an expression of peasants revolting against the elite, but only 200 years too late? Or are these daddy issues because from what I have read, at least 90% of his kind claims Rajput descent. Jin ko baap kehtay hain, unn ki respect karna bhi seekhtay hain. This your family should have taught you and not random people behind anonymous handles.

Who are these ancestors that you claim to worship? You do not even know the name of your great grandfather and you talk about worshipping ancestors? If you have found them, please share that knowledge with me so that I can understand Jataali better and also guess where these deficiencies may have emerged from.

In Pakistan we have a saying: even if you gather a thousand eunuchs, they can still not birth a child. Same goes for you. Even if the entirety of your kind gathers, they cannot birth a single Sisodia-like child. Haldighati ki baat kartay ho. You bad-mouth Sisodias here but call them your ancestors the first chance that you get. Kahan Sisodia jaisa Super Grade A Rajput, aur kahan wazwan type jataali. Rajput itihaas aur empires parhni hain tau school mein mehnat karta. But ye le a non-exhaustive list for your wiki consuming kind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rajput_dynasties_and_states

Take your head out of the sand or where ever else it is stuck. This attitude will not help you. Yours is the kind who get their entire communities insulted but they still don't learn. Ghairat hi missing ho tau kiya learn karna hai.

Did this guy really just protest supposed 'blowing of drums' by blowing some of his own? And then broke down emotionally and gave that intolerance sob story? Is he blaming me for bigotry? Because as far as I am aware I am the only active Rajput (and that too Muslim with no connection to modern-day India ffs) on this forum. Iss wazwan ko meinay kiya kaha hai? I think ye Jatland wiki ka admin hai.

Khanbadoshi please do not delete this message. Thanks.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 09:21 AM
On a similar note, what do you people think of this paper?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

This researcher did refer jatland.com..

bmoney
02-20-2018, 10:46 AM
On a similar note, what do you people think of this paper?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

This researcher did refer jatland.com..

LOL they did hahah

This paper has had many threads off the back of it.

It is what it is I say - makes sense to me but might underrepresent Muslim Jats as the author has called out.

Its basically saying Jats have the same pop contributors as other Indians but some distinct lineages characterise them About 90% of the Jats in our sample belonged to only four different lines of ancestry and geographic origins.

However @Sapporos personal analysis has found tight clustering when it comes to Sikh and Haryanvi Jats - I've seen the data and they do seem to cluster quite a bit suggesting founder effects to me and known endogamy

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 11:11 AM
Ir appears is if he an issue with Rajputs and Brahmins. Is this an expression of peasants revolting against the elite, but only 200 years too late? Or are these daddy issues because from what I have read, at least 90% of his kind claims Rajput descent. Jin ko baap kehtay hain, unn ki respect karna bhi seekhtay hain. This your family should have taught you and not random people behind anonymous handles.

Who are these ancestors that you claim to worship? You do not even know the name of your great grandfather and you talk about worshipping ancestors? If you have found them, please share that knowledge with me so that I can understand Jataali better and also guess where these deficiencies may have emerged from.

In Pakistan we have a saying: even if you gather a thousand eunuchs, they can still not birth a child. Same goes for you. Even if the entirety of your kind gathers, they cannot birth a single Sisodia-like child. Haldighati ki baat kartay ho. You bad-mouth Sisodias here but call them your ancestors the first chance that you get. Kahan Sisodia jaisa Super Grade A Rajput, aur kahan wazwan type jataali. Rajput itihaas aur empires parhni hain tau school mein mehnat karta. But ye le a non-exhaustive list for your wiki consuming kind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rajput_dynasties_and_states

Take your head out of the sand or where ever else it is stuck. This attitude will not help you. Yours is the kind who get their entire communities insulted but they still don't learn. Ghairat hi missing ho tau kiya learn karna hai.

Did this guy really just protest supposed 'blowing of drums' by blowing some of his own? And then broke down emotionally and gave that intolerance sob story? Is he blaming me for bigotry? Because as far as I am aware I am the only active Rajput (and that too Muslim with no connection to modern-day India ffs) on this forum. Iss wazwan ko meinay kiya kaha hai? I think ye Jatland wiki ka admin hai.

Khanbadoshi please do not delete this message. Thanks.

Awesome reply..:cheer2:

prashantvaidwan
02-20-2018, 01:10 PM
There is an old proverb for jatt..
. The Jat stood on his own corn heap and called out to the King's elephant-drivers "Hi there, what will you take for those little donkeys?" (Sir
Risley [19] page 132) ... Lol...

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 01:27 PM
LOL they did hahah

This paper has had many threads off the back of it.

It is what it is I say - makes sense to me but might underrepresent Muslim Jats as the author has called out.

Its basically saying Jats have the same pop contributors as other Indians but some distinct lineages characterise them About 90% of the Jats in our sample belonged to only four different lines of ancestry and geographic origins.

However @Sapporos personal analysis has found tight clustering when it comes to Sikh and Haryanvi Jats - I've seen the data and they do seem to cluster quite a bit suggesting founder effects to me and known endogamy

Yeah LOL... This "researcher" David Mahal supposedly developed interest in Genealogy after getting his DNA tested in Geographic Project. He had also authored some books which I totally am certain will be modern versions of B.S. Dahiya's books. http://www.davidmahal.com/ Mr. Mahal has also been added in the list of Jat Historians and in Jatland Library/Jat history books in English article in Jatland website.

What I find intriguing is that this paper points to the presence of Y-DNA I among Indian Jats as well as Ezhavas, Malayalis, Nairs, Vellalars.

As far as "About 90% of the Jats in our sample belonged to only four different lines of ancestry and geographic origins." is concerned I can say that in tests, only a few haplogroups constitute the bulk in most ethnicities. Eg. According to Kivisild2003b, around 90% of Indian Punjabi samples belonged to only 3 lineages (R, J and L) and in West Bengali samples also around 90% belonged to 3 lineages (R, J, H).

bmoney
02-20-2018, 02:33 PM
Yeah LOL... This "researcher" David Mahal supposedly developed interest in Genealogy after getting his DNA tested in Geographic Project. He had also authored some books which I totally am certain will be modern versions of B.S. Dahiya's books. http://www.davidmahal.com/ Mr. Mahal has also been added in the list of Jat Historians and in Jatland Library/Jat history books in English article in Jatland website.

What I find intriguing is that this paper points to the presence of Y-DNA I among Indian Jats as well as Ezhavas, Malayalis, Nairs, Vellalars.

As far as "About 90% of the Jats in our sample belonged to only four different lines of ancestry and geographic origins." is concerned I can say that in tests, only a few haplogroups constitute the bulk in most ethnicities. Eg. According to Kivisild2003b, around 90% of Indian Punjabi samples belonged to only 3 lineages (R, J and L) and in West Bengali samples also around 90% belonged to 3 lineages (R, J, H).

Yeah makes sense - i guess its what defines certain communities. However there are lots of communities with diverse lineages where one lineage might only make up to 30% with a split among the rest.

Found the Ezhava paper being referred to: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21674830

Where does refer to hap I? - I thought the similarity in y-dna was due to similar clades of R1a-M417 and L, though Jats are mostly L1a2 which is rare in the south

TBH i cant make sense of the paper

EDIT: oh you mean this. Interesting, the Nairs Ezhavas and Jats are the only communities in the set to have every single y-dna haplogroup

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/table/T2/

khanabadoshi
02-20-2018, 03:17 PM
Khanbadoshi please do not delete this message. Thanks.



I won't. However, it attracted enough attention that the Administration stumbled upon your account discrepancies.
You were not banned for this post.

Nonetheless, given that this post did receive scrutiny, we should address another post and poster worthy of receiving the same. This brings us to the personality of one prashantvaidwan. Be warned, you are treading a thin line -- in fact, you may have already crossed it.

khanabadoshi
02-20-2018, 03:45 PM
As a stern reminder, I have taken the liberty of visiting Page 1 of this thread to remind everyone the purpose of it:


Hephtalite legacy in India

Dont know its the right subforum, but was curious which tribes/groups have (partial) Hephtalite/Hunnic ancestry?





If you aren't addressing this question or topic, take your post to the appropriate thread.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 03:48 PM
Yeah makes sense - i guess its what defines certain communities. However there are lots of communities with diverse lineages where one lineage might only make up to 30% with a split among the rest.

Found the Ezhava paper being referred to: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21674830

Where does refer to hap I? - I thought the similarity in y-dna was due to similar clades of R1a-M417 and L, though Jats are mostly L1a2 which is rare in the south

TBH i cant make sense of the paper

EDIT: oh you mean this. Interesting, the Nairs Ezhavas and Jats are the only communities in the set to have every single y-dna haplogroup

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/table/T2/

I couldn't make sense of any of the papers linked by Mr. Mahal's paper which reported Y-DNA I either except for the Sengupta et al. paper

parasar
02-20-2018, 04:01 PM
...

What I find intriguing is that this paper points to the presence of Y-DNA I among Indian Jats as well as Ezhavas, Malayalis, Nairs, Vellalars.

...

These I will almost certainly not be I, but likely J, G, H, or even R.
"Of the 302 records used in this study, 258 were processed through Whit Athey's software."

No I in South Asia determined from STRs has stayed I after SNP test.
So the only I, I would feel confident about in this table - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/table/T2/ - is the Hazara I.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 04:11 PM
These I will almost certainly not be I, but likely J, G, H, or even R.
"Of the 302 records used in this study, 258 were processed through Whit Athey's software."

No I in South Asia determined from STRs has stayed I after SNP test.
So the only I, I would feel confident about in this table - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/table/T2/ - is the Hazara I.

Yup, that's what I guessed. It is only understandable in the Sengupta paper. It reminds me of old times when Kalash people were thought to possess Y-DNA I which later turned to H and others.
On a side note, someone has entered the L-M20 is the single largest male lineage (36.8%) among the Jat people in Wikipedia. How correct is that?

khanabadoshi
02-20-2018, 04:49 PM
Majburi hn ky qeemti log -- jinke rihaish ahm ilaqoun mein sy, aur qoumi ta'luq shadeed dilchasp -- apne alfaaz mein izzat o- aqalmandi bhul jaatein hn. Qalam mein beqaar siyahi mat bahrlijiay. Agar bakwaas apni zaban ki aadat nahin hn, phir ungli ko kyun ijaazat diyagay? Bari afsoos ki baat hn.



EDIT: Don't mind me. The depression associated with the loss of potential autosomal data turns me into Ghalib.



https://youtu.be/xbfSVLSR8O4?t=27s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinEYZvLuxk

parasar
02-20-2018, 04:58 PM
Yup, that's what I guessed. It is only understandable in the Sengupta paper. It reminds me of old times when Kalash people were thought to possess Y-DNA I which later turned to H and others.
On a side note, someone has entered the L-M20 is the single largest male lineage (36.8%) among the Jat people in Wikipedia. How correct is that?

This is a large enough sample set of Jats, so that looks possible. It may vary some between sample sets.

There were rumors that Rakhigarhi was L-M20.

L-M20 was found in an ancient Hun elite and Armenians (Areni cave).
http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-kazahstanskiy-dnk-proekt.html

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-20-2018, 05:53 PM
This is a large enough sample set of Jats, so that looks possible. It may vary some between sample sets.

There were rumors that Rakhigarhi was L-M20.

L-M20 was found in an ancient Hun elite and Armenians (Areni cave).
http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-kazahstanskiy-dnk-proekt.html

Thanks for the link. Actually my concern is with the credibility of D. G. Mahal's research. That paper didn't even care to check whether Y-DNA R is atleast R1a, R1b or R2 in the samples, is it logical to just say that their Y-Dna L is ~37% just like that. There should be atleast some info on the clades downstream. Isn't it possible that some of the Ls might not be L at all? As you just mentioned that the 'I' here can be H,J, or even R.

Just for info, how many specimens are getting sampled from Rakhigarhi? Is it only one?

surbakhunWeesste
02-20-2018, 06:17 PM
Majburi hn ky qeemti log -- jinke rihaish ahm ilaqoun mein sy, aur qoumi ta'luq shadeed dilchasp -- apne alfaaz mein izzat o- aqalmandi bhul jaatein hn. Qalam mein beqaar siyahi mat bahrlijiay. Agar bakwaas apni zaban ki aadat nahin hn, phir ungli ko kyun ijaazat diyagay? Bari afsoos ki baat hn.



EDIT: Don't mind me. The depression associated with the loss of potential autosomal data turns me into Ghalib.



https://youtu.be/xbfSVLSR8O4?t=27s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinEYZvLuxk
Areh moderator sahab, aap toh bahhot filmy alfaaz ho Gaye. Aaz kaal ki hawa aishe hai ki: Filhaalm ke awam me ye man li hai ki, unke bozorg joh neh kaam aur naam kiya, unke naam mein kohi stain nalage, aur joh quom se woh tahluqat rakhte hain woh hoga sabse uunche takth mein, baki saab toh bhikhaari loog hain aur unki quom ko hamare qoum bozorg neh laat marrey, toh fir hum aaz sabse unche taakth mein hoona manzur hone cha hiye. Hamara guroor zendabad, kyoun ke hamari bozorg e unqademo ne sara zaft kiya.
South Asia toh yek mestizo loog ki zameen hai, balki Afghanistan bhi. Lekin humko toh yeh mehssos hai hai ki kitne sara loog Saab genetics ke zariye se apne quom ko awwal Karne key race mein hain. “ Dekhiye humko, hamari khoon kitni undiluted hai aur tumlog toh mutt” hamari khyal se, yeh doosrey wali discrimination ki queue main apni oordo jama karney mein lag huye hain.
Humko Hindu/Urdu tamreen karna hai toh lotfan zawab inglishi mein Nadey agar zawab deney ke ma karey.

parasar
02-21-2018, 01:08 AM
Thanks for the link. Actually my concern is with the credibility of D. G. Mahal's research. That paper didn't even care to check whether Y-DNA R is atleast R1a, R1b or R2 in the samples, is it logical to just say that their Y-Dna L is ~37% just like that. There should be atleast some info on the clades downstream. Isn't it possible that some of the Ls might not be L at all? As you just mentioned that the 'I' here can be H,J, or even R.

Just for info, how many specimens are getting sampled from Rakhigarhi? Is it only one?

I would say a Y-STR based paper's time has come and gone.
We need SNP tests and with at least some full Y.

For Rakhigarhi, reported 4 - 15 samples.
"Archaeologists hope DNA from four skeletons will shed light on bronze age settlement"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/30/rakhigarhi-indian-town-unlock-mystery-indus-civilisation
"The sources said excavators had opened 20 graves and skeletons had been found in 15 of them. They said DNA samples were being sent to the laboratories for bio-molecular scientific analysis."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/haryana/community/15-skeletons-found-at-harappan-site-in-hisar-s-rakhigarhi-village/221923.html

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-21-2018, 01:35 PM
I would say a Y-STR based paper's time has come and gone.
We need SNP tests and with at least some full Y.

For Rakhigarhi, reported 4 - 15 samples.
"Archaeologists hope DNA from four skeletons will shed light on bronze age settlement"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/30/rakhigarhi-indian-town-unlock-mystery-indus-civilisation
"The sources said excavators had opened 20 graves and skeletons had been found in 15 of them. They said DNA samples were being sent to the laboratories for bio-molecular scientific analysis."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/haryana/community/15-skeletons-found-at-harappan-site-in-hisar-s-rakhigarhi-village/221923.html

Thanks for the information sir. When are the reports coming up? For a moment I got tensed seeing the ASI in "The Archeological Survey of India (ASI)" from the second link posted by you.:lol:

Sapporo
02-21-2018, 08:08 PM
Yup, that's what I guessed. It is only understandable in the Sengupta paper. It reminds me of old times when Kalash people were thought to possess Y-DNA I which later turned to H and others.
On a side note, someone has entered the L-M20 is the single largest male lineage (36.8%) among the Jat people in Wikipedia. How correct is that?


It's accurate. It matches up with the study as well as my own personal observations based on collecting data for over 50 Jatts via 23andMe, FTDNA and Gedmatch. The vast majority of Jatts are either L1a2 (L1c-M357) or R-M417 (R1a1a). The rest are divided into Q, J, H, etc.

pegasus
02-23-2018, 05:36 AM
It's accurate. It matches up with the study as well as my own personal observations based on collecting data for over 50 Jatts via 23andMe, FTDNA and Gedmatch. The vast majority of Jatts are either L1a2 (L1c-M357) or R-M417 (R1a1a). The rest are divided into Q, J, H, etc.

Can you parse through the Mtdna groups of Jat Sikhs compared to other Jat groups.

Afshar
02-23-2018, 07:23 AM
It's accurate. It matches up with the study as well as my own personal observations based on collecting data for over 50 Jatts via 23andMe, FTDNA and Gedmatch. The vast majority of Jatts are either L1a2 (L1c-M357) or R-M417 (R1a1a). The rest are divided into Q, J, H, etc.

Do you see any trends regarding clan/tribe/region?

Sapporo
02-23-2018, 07:38 AM
Do you see any trends regarding clan/tribe/region?
Not enough samples to draw any definite conclusions. However, most "clans" seem to be dominated by either one of L1a2 or R1a1A. Some "clans" are more evenly divided the 2.


Can you parse through the Mtdna groups of Jat Sikhs compared to other Jat groups.

Some mt-DNA that show up multiple times are: U7, U2b, HV/HV2/HV2a, W3/W (various clades), R5a2, H/H1, J1d, T (T1 & T2), M4a, M5a, M4-64, M30/M30d1, M6, etc.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

80%+ of individuals I collected haplogroup data from are Jatt Sikh. I don't have enough samples of either Hindu Jats or Punjabi Muslim Jatts to do a proper comparison.

Afshar
02-23-2018, 08:37 AM
Not enough samples to draw any definite conclusions. However, most "clans" seem to be dominated by either one of L1a2 or R1a1A. Some "clans" are more evenly divided the 2.



Some mt-DNA that show up multiple times are: U7, U2b, HV/HV2/HV2a, W3/W (various clades), R5a2, H/H1, J1d, T (T1 & T2), M4a, M5a, M4-64, M30/M30d1, M6, etc.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

80%+ of individuals I collected haplogroup data from are Jatt Sikh. I don't have enough samples of either Hindu Jats or Punjabi Muslim Jatts to do a proper comparison.
Do we have bigY data from haplogroup L jatts?

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-23-2018, 02:13 PM
It's accurate. It matches up with the study as well as my own personal observations based on collecting data for over 50 Jatts via 23andMe, FTDNA and Gedmatch. The vast majority of Jatts are either L1a2 (L1c-M357) or R-M417 (R1a1a). The rest are divided into Q, J, H, etc.

I wonder how Mahal's research which didn't even try to go any deeper than the barebone Basal lineages is accurate:\. Unless he collected data from commercial labs(is it possible?), isn't it possible that some haplogroups might have been assigned wrong? Most conspicuous thing I noticed in the test is that even R1a, R1b and R2 are not distinguished, the lineages 90% of the connoisseurs are interested in. Notice how you too mentioned "(L1c-M357) or R-M417 (R1a1a). " here, but not so in Mahal's paper.

Your spreadsheet is awesome. I see Gills have high presence of J2 as well. Seems H and Q is also quite common among Punjabis.
One question, In how many communities, surname Bal is found? I had an SC friend who was a Bal. Tell me something about the surname Balwant and Bainsrav(spelling?)