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Afshar
09-14-2015, 05:52 PM
Dont know its the right subforum, but was curious which tribes/groups have (partial) Hephtalite/Hunnic ancestry?

pegasus
09-15-2015, 02:49 AM
They were Eastern Iranic speakers and mainly based in Afghanistan. IMO Pashtun tribes would be the best fit, given the geography and linguistics match up.

There are some theories which believe Rajputs have some ancestry but there are conflicting views about that since there is no concrete proof of that. The Indian members on here could elaborate more on that.

Tsakhur
09-15-2015, 03:20 AM
So it is likely that Pashtuns, Afghan Tajik, Wakhi might be the modern day descendants of these ancient Hephtalites?

kenji.aryan
09-15-2015, 04:04 AM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Kushano-Hephthalites_600ad.jpg

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/Hephthalites_500ad.jpg





People from above mentioned regions in India can have Hephthalite connection imo.

Afshar
09-15-2015, 06:21 AM
So you think its geographical and not tribe related.

Coldmountains
09-15-2015, 08:45 AM
So it is likely that Pashtuns, Afghan Tajik, Wakhi might be the modern day descendants of these ancient Hephtalites?

Possible if not likely but we can say nothing definitely about that now. Hepthalites were most likely East Iranian speaking already before they adopted bactrian but which Iranian language nobody knows. The Durrani tribe of Pashtuns is linked to Hephtalites because their older tribal name Abdali seems to be derived from Hephtalite but tribal names can wander over long distances without any remarkable genetic inflow.

bored
09-15-2015, 08:56 AM
Some North Indian Rajput clans claim Hunnic ancestry. Who knows? There might be something to it. Jatts claim Scythian ancestry and I don't think it's implausible at all. There might be some truth to the Rajput claims as well. I wonder what would constitute evidence for it though. Like how would it manifest in ADMIXTURE? Unfortunately there's a paucity of Rajput samples from North India so far. If we had more samples things would be clearer.

bored
09-15-2015, 09:15 AM
Actually could elevated East Eurasian be one sign of Hunnic admixture? I think they had some East Eurasian. It would be difficult to distinguish between Hunnic East Eurasian and other sources of East Eurasian.

Afshar
09-15-2015, 09:21 AM
Some North Indian Rajput clans claim Hunnic ancestry. Who knows? There might be something to it. Jatts claim Scythian ancestry and I don't think it's implausible at all. There might be some truth to the Rajput claims as well. I wonder what would constitute evidence for it though. Like how would it manifest in ADMIXTURE? Unfortunately there's a paucity of Rajput samples from North India so far. If we had more samples things would be clearer.

Any Ydna evidence from certain tribes that clearly have a different fingerprint than surrouding tribes/people in the same geography?
Or, if there seems to be no evidence, its evenly distributed indepedent of tribe/clan or the amount of samples is too low?

Coldmountains
09-15-2015, 09:29 AM
Some North Indian Rajput clans claim Hunnic ancestry. Who knows? There might be something to it. Jatts claim Scythian ancestry and I don't think it's implausible at all. There might be some truth to the Rajput claims as well. I wonder what would constitute evidence for it though. Like how would it manifest in ADMIXTURE? Unfortunately there's a paucity of Rajput samples from North India so far. If we had more samples things would be clearer.

I am very skeptical about this theories about a Hunnic/Hephthalite origin of some Indian groups. It is unlikely that Hephthalites left many descendants there because they were defeated and pushed out by local Indian rulers in the end but it is possible. Their presence in India was already before limited in my opinion. Their descendants survived in Afghanistan till the Islamic conquest and fought against Islamic rulers so we should search in Afghanistan and Tajikistan first for descendants of Hephthalites but this is impossible now because we have no idea about their exact autosomal and Y-DNA

bored
09-15-2015, 09:30 AM
Any Ydna evidence from certain tribes that clearly have a different fingerprint than surrouding tribes/people in the same geography?
Or, if there seems to be no evidence, its evenly distributed indepedent of tribe/clan or the amount of samples is too low?

Which Y-DNA lines should we be looking for?

DMXX
09-15-2015, 09:32 AM
Personally, I don't think either the Hephthalites or the Kushans/Yuezhi left any meaningful genetic impact across much of either South-Central Asia or India. By the time the Silk Road was founded (200-100 B.C.), Chinese records indicate South-Central Asia had already founded a large local population.

ADMIXTURE autosomal profiles of South-Central Asia readily show that groups like Burusho, Pathans, Sindhis and Jatts aren't that different from one another (example (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hblMLEeiB-w/UDJxCFKIuqI/AAAAAAAAAPM/tG15oirU_Jg/s1600/Another+example.png)). I've interpreted this as an indication that the genetic landscape of South-Central Asia was already "set" into place sometime during prehistory for such disparate groups to resemble each other to this extent. Afghanistan could be a different story, though. Also, there might be extant groups in the region we haven't sampled yet which might capture any Hephthalite signal better (Coldmountains mentioned the Abdali tribe, specific testing of them could be useful).

As others have said, the Hephthalites themselves do seem to be generally East Iranian related, though there's linguistic evidence of some form of Turkic influence among them. Certainly fits the timeframe of the Turkish expansion out of East-Central Asia.

Afshar
09-15-2015, 09:34 AM
Which Y-DNA lines should we be looking for?
I have no clue and Indian genetics is out of my league:)

Coldmountains
09-15-2015, 09:39 AM
Personally, I don't think either the Hephthalites or the Kushans/Yuezhi left any meaningful genetic impact on either South-Central Asia or India. By the time the Silk Road was founded (200-100 B.C.), Chinese records indicate South-Central Asia had already founded a large local population. ADMIXTURE autosomal profiles of South-Central Asia readily show that groups like Burusho, Pathans, Sindhis and Jatts aren't that different from one another (example (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hblMLEeiB-w/UDJxCFKIuqI/AAAAAAAAAPM/tG15oirU_Jg/s1600/Another+example.png)). I've interpreted this as an indication that the genetic landscape of South-Central Asia was already "set" into place sometime during prehistory for such disparate groups to resemble each other to this extent.

As others have said, the Hephthalites themselves do seem to be generally East Iranian related, though there's linguistic evidence of some form of Turkic influence among them. Certainly fits the timeframe of the Turkish expansion out of East-Central Asia.

I absolutely agree it is also possible that Hephthalites were just the same like modern South Central Asians with a slightly Siberian touch so I think we can hardly distinguish them from modern populations and it is very hard if not impossible to separate Hephthalite legacy among South Central Asians from older native South Central Asian dna

Afshar
09-15-2015, 09:43 AM
In Lakhana's time the White Huns retreated to Ghazni via the Peshawar valley. Ahmad Hasan Dani has been cited as naming Yudhishthira as the last king for this reason, as in Lakhana’s time the Hunas had been routed as an Empire. It is at this time that Hephthalite rule in India is taken to have ended after nearly 20 years of fighting.

The last hunnic king of the Indo-Huna tribes is known as Purvaditya ruling from around after 670 CE. It should be mentioned that these kings were of a very later time and were probably overlords of a very small region as compared to their predecessors.

These regions were Hun "Mandalas" or centers and existed for a long time even after the main Empire collapsed. Malwa, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and East Gujrat are known Huna centers in India.

The Garuda Pillar mentions defeat of the Hunas by the king for which it was erected, and is dated to 850 CE, showing the continued existence of White Hun descendants in the region. Even later evidence is present in the Atpru inscription which mentions the ruler of Medapatta marrying a Hun Mandala king’s daughter, dated to 977 CE.

Much other evidence is given as to the extent in which Huns spread in India and moreover they are said to be the ancestors of many local tribes of the region such as the Rajputs, Gujars and Jats and also the Abdalis, Karluks and Khalachs in Afghanistan and Central Asia .

This was pretty much a custom in India at the time, where conquerors would gradually assimilate into the native population and integrate with the people, sometimes even being converted into castes themselves as happened with the Gujars who became "royal shepherds" of the Kashatrya caste and the Jats who became brave fighters and later gave rise to another warrior group, the Sikhs. The Rajputs themselves retained their warlike abilities and were later on initiated into the Hindu religion as a caste. Aradi states through various references that this was owing to the fact that the Brahmin caste saw the use of integrating these formidable people into the fold of Hinduism and hence initiated them through a special ceremony in the 7th Century CE. Their roots are still evident in their music and warrior background.
Does this make some sense?

DMXX
09-15-2015, 09:44 AM
I absolutely agree it is also possible that Hephthalites were just the same like modern South Central Asians with a slightly Siberian touch so I think we can hardly distinguish them from modern populations and it is very hard if not impossible to separate Hephthalite legacy among South Central Asians from older native South Central Asian dna

Completely agree. By the time the Hephthalites are attested (in the "late" ancient/"early" Medieval period), movements to East-Central Asia and the Pamirs had long since been established. Also worth mentioning they were a confederacy. Perhaps the individuals among them were a mix of predominantly steppe (i.e. Andronovo-like) and South-Central Asian with additional Siberian. It's anyone's guess what they looked like genetically. At least we have some guided ideas bounced around here.

bored
09-15-2015, 09:53 AM
ADMIXTURE autosomal profiles of South-Central Asia readily show that groups like Burusho, Pathans, Sindhis and Jatts aren't that different from one another (example (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hblMLEeiB-w/UDJxCFKIuqI/AAAAAAAAAPM/tG15oirU_Jg/s1600/Another+example.png)). I've interpreted this as an indication that the genetic landscape of South-Central Asia was already "set" into place sometime during prehistory for such disparate groups to resemble each other to this extent.

That's a good point. I've always wondered about the plausibility of neighbouring groups having radically different ancestral inputs. According to the legend, Jatts have Scythian input, Rajputs have Hunnic/Kushan input, and Brahmins have Aryan input. Yet, all these groups have very similar autosomal profiles in ADMIXTURE. You do have the 18% NE Euro Haryana Jatts but you also have the 16% NE Euro Brahmins from UP, Gujarat, etc. We don't want to get our heads chopped off by Occam's Machete. At the same time, I do think there's substance to the Scythian ancestry claim of some groups like the Jatts.

DMXX
09-15-2015, 09:57 AM
Does this make some sense?

It does. The Hephthalites certainly did have a presence in these regions.

I am mindful of assuming a genetic contribution coincided with physical empires. If that were the case, we'd expect Arabia and Armenia to be significantly Iranian after centuries of Achaemanid and Sassanid rule, but that does not seem to be the case.

As a quick aside, "Purvaditya" sounds like an Indo-Aryan name to me, indicating whatever Hephthalite derivatives formed in India were culturally assimilated to some extent.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-15-2015, 10:34 AM
Completely agree. By the time the Hephthalites are attested (in the "late" ancient/"early" Medieval period), movements to East-Central Asia and the Pamirs had long since been established. Also worth mentioning they were a confederacy. Perhaps the individuals among them were a mix of predominantly steppe (i.e. Andronovo-like) and South-Central Asian with additional Siberian. It's anyone's guess what they looked like genetically. At least we have some guided ideas bounced around here.

I agree. The Hephthalites come about in the early middle Ages. By then, south-central Asia was already a mix. In any case, the Hephthalites were initially a particular tribe or caste probably from within central-south Asia, probably more northerly. What they looked like genetically will be dictated their social structure: if they were an open network, then they'd be a mixture of any permutation of current haplogroups present in the region. If they were a tight-knit, more closed group then I'd expect a dominant lineage, which would be anyone's guess without directly sampling aDNA from their burials.

Afshar
09-15-2015, 11:08 AM
I was aiming for yDNA, autosomally I think it cannot be proven (as DMXX showed), but maybe with some lost minor ydna lines it can.

DMXX
09-15-2015, 11:16 AM
Ah! Apologies. Just saw your earlier post regarding Y-DNA.

You are correct. With neither demonstrably "Hephthalite" aDNA from South-Central Asia (we in fact have none at all right now), nor formal tribe-specific testing of individuals from South-Central Asia and northern India, it's anyone's guess what Y-DNA subclades the Hephthalites carried and whether any lines persisted till the present day.

I think it's a given we'll expect some Y-DNA R1a1a-Z93+ L657- among them, though, but would guess there will also be J2-M172 (since it appears in the Iron Age steppes at both ends) as well as Q-M242 (unsure which subclade, but this was again found in the Iron Age Altai). Could also be some N1c-Tat among them. The latter two would probably reflect interactions with Turkish speakers, if linguistics is anything to go by (although it's possible the Turkic influence was purely linguistic).

R1a1a-L657+ is as close as one gets to a Subcontinental subclade of R1a1a-Z93, so any L657- in India could be Hephthalite-related, though it could represent any paternal derivation from the steppes. Indo-Parthians could be another source for this. I have no idea how frequent R1a1a-Z93(xL657) is in India.

Afshar
09-15-2015, 11:53 AM
On the https://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults Indian project there seems to be a fair amount of R1a1a-Z93+ L657-,J2-M172 and Q-M242 but no N1c. But their distribution is not restricted to North India, and their tribes are not mentioned.

parasar
09-15-2015, 02:41 PM
Some North Indian Rajput clans claim Hunnic ancestry. Who knows? There might be something to it. Jatts claim Scythian ancestry and I don't think it's implausible at all. There might be some truth to the Rajput claims as well. I wonder what would constitute evidence for it though. Like how would it manifest in ADMIXTURE? Unfortunately there's a paucity of Rajput samples from North India so far. If we had more samples things would be clearer.

Rajput connection to Hoons was known prior to the British period. Eg. Aralla Devi (Hoon) was the wife of Karn Dev (Kalachuri). Hariya Devi (Hoon) was the wife of Allat (Guhil). At that time though they (Guhil, Kalachuri) were not known as Rajputs.

Jatt claim to Scythian (Shak) ancestry completely post-dates the British.

BMG
09-15-2015, 03:02 PM
Ah! Apologies. Just saw your earlier post regarding Y-DNA.

You are correct. With neither demonstrably "Hephthalite" aDNA from South-Central Asia (we in fact have none at all right now), nor formal tribe-specific testing of individuals from South-Central Asia and northern India, it's anyone's guess what Y-DNA subclades the Hephthalites carried and whether any lines persisted till the present day.

I think it's a given we'll expect some Y-DNA R1a1a-Z93+ L657- among them, though, but would guess there will also be J2-M172 (since it appears in the Iron Age steppes at both ends) as well as Q-M242 (unsure which subclade, but this was again found in the Iron Age Altai). Could also be some N1c-Tat among them. The latter two would probably reflect interactions with Turkish speakers, if linguistics is anything to go by (although it's possible the Turkic influence was purely linguistic).

R1a1a-L657+ is as close as one gets to a Subcontinental subclade of R1a1a-Z93, so any L657- in India could be Hephthalite-related, though it could represent any paternal derivation from the steppes. Indo-Parthians could be another source for this. I have no idea how frequent R1a1a-Z93(xL657) is in India.
I dont think any of main south Asian R1a clades L657 ,Z2123 and Y40 can be fully hepthalite or such because of its presence today. But some ydna like khanajans Z282 and Q-M25 found in a haryanvi jatt could provide the clue.

parasar
09-15-2015, 03:02 PM
Does this make some sense?

Yes, partly. The Lakhana reference is reasonable. There were indeed pockets of mongoloid-like folk all over north-central India, and the region they occupied in Malwa is known as Hoon mandal.

"they are said to be the ancestors of many local tribes of the region such as the Rajputs, Gujars and Jats" - this for the most part is nonsense.

parasar
09-15-2015, 03:15 PM
I agree. The Hephthalites come about in the early middle Ages. By then, south-central Asia was already a mix. In any case, the Hephthalites were initially a particular tribe or caste probably from within central-south Asia, probably more northerly. What they looked like genetically will be dictated their social structure: if they were an open network, then they'd be a mixture of any permutation of current haplogroups present in the region. If they were a tight-knit, more closed group then I'd expect a dominant lineage, which would be anyone's guess without directly sampling aDNA from their burials.

I would agree. When Xuanzhang mentions the Himtal, he is likely talking about what others refer to as Heptal.
https://books.google.com/books?id=oNhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156

khanabadoshi
09-15-2015, 03:24 PM
Yes, partly. The Lakhana reference is reasonable. There were indeed pockets of mongoloid-like folk all over north-central India, and the region they occupied in Malwa is known as Hoon mandal.

"they are said to be the ancestors of many local tribes of the region such as the Rajputs, Gujars and Jats" - this for the most part is nonsense.

I read a theory a long time ago, from somewhere I can't recall and that I can't quote from memory (as usual) that: Old Sindh populus + Seva Huna or Hephtalite = Rajput or Gujjar or Jatt -- or something of that accord. Meaning pre-Jatt northward migrations occurred and interacted with the Seva Huna etc to form these populations?

I might have stated the theory incorrectly, mixed things up, but I think you know what I am referring to.

tamilgangster
09-15-2015, 03:58 PM
Some North Indian Rajput clans claim Hunnic ancestry. Who knows? There might be something to it. Jatts claim Scythian ancestry and I don't think it's implausible at all. There might be some truth to the Rajput claims as well. I wonder what would constitute evidence for it though. Like how would it manifest in ADMIXTURE? Unfortunately there's a paucity of Rajput samples from North India so far. If we had more samples things would be clearer.
Jatts having scythian admixture makes way more sense than them coming from sindh. Their genetics don't match that of any sindhi populations

Afshar
09-15-2015, 04:02 PM
I dont think any of main south Asian R1a clades L657 ,Z2123 and Y40 can be fully hepthalite or such because of its presence today. But some ydna like khanajans Z282 and Q-M25 found in a haryanvi jatt could provide the clue.

Is that the Malik, which is also in the q project?

DMXX
09-15-2015, 04:47 PM
Great discussion, gents. It might help if a quick search was done into South-Central Asian and northern Indian archaeology to see whether there's anything that suggests settlement of a new intrusive society in these regions around the time of the Hephthalites (approx. 400-600 A.D.). Archaeology isn't definitive (have to invoke the "pots =/= people" fallacy rebuttal), but it may give us some useful pointers regarding what happened to them. Historical and linguistic inferences also aren't especially firm here, to begin with.


On the https://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults Indian project there seems to be a fair amount of R1a1a-Z93+ L657-,J2-M172 and Q-M242 but no N1c. But their distribution is not restricted to North India, and their tribes are not mentioned.

Well spotted. The abundance of R1a1a-Z93+ L657- could be due to sampling bias. I don't know how the Indian FTDNA project sought out samples, but it's possible they received these after they were tested in the far more populous R1a1a Subclades project. Their very presence, however, is interesting. Any thoughts from anyone aside from the Indo-Parthian (or Kushan) invocation regarding their presence?

Y-DNA J2-M172 was likely present in the Indian Subcontinent long before any historically attested steppe groups made their way south.

Yes, I investigated whether any N1c-Tat is present in India some years back (here (http://vaedhya.blogspot.qa/2013/03/y-dna-haplogroup-n-in-india-wayward.html)). Sharma et al. was the only paper to ever produce anything resembling detectable (>1%) N1c-Tat in the Subcontinent. Of course, this wouldn't rule out the Hephthalites had it. In fact, if the Hepththalites did have N1c-Tat, it would actually support the argument against a significant contribution by them in India.

bored
09-15-2015, 05:58 PM
I dont think any of main south Asian R1a clades L657 ,Z2123 and Y40 can be fully hepthalite or such because of its presence today. But some ydna like khanajans Z282 and Q-M25 found in a haryanvi jatt could provide the clue.

I'm sharing with a Minhas Rajput who is Q1* and a Kashmiri Pandit who is Q1a*. Could these possibly have any connection to Huns?

Coldmountains
09-15-2015, 06:06 PM
Bump.

Coldmountains
09-15-2015, 06:17 PM
Great discussion, gents. It might help if a quick search was done into South-Central Asian and northern Indian archaeology to see whether there's anything that suggests settlement of a new intrusive society in these regions around the time of the Hephthalites (approx. 400-600 A.D.). Archaeology isn't definitive (have to invoke the "pots =/= people" fallacy rebuttal), but it may give us some useful pointers regarding what happened to them. Historical and linguistic inferences also aren't especially firm here, to begin with.



Well spotted. The abundance of R1a1a-Z93+ L657- could be due to sampling bias. I don't know how the Indian FTDNA project sought out samples, but it's possible they received these after they were tested in the far more populous R1a1a Subclades project. Their very presence, however, is interesting. Any thoughts from anyone aside from the Indo-Parthian (or Kushan) invocation regarding their presence?

Y-DNA J2-M172 was likely present in the Indian Subcontinent long before any historically attested steppe groups made their way south.

Yes, I investigated whether any N1c-Tat is present in India some years back (here (http://vaedhya.blogspot.qa/2013/03/y-dna-haplogroup-n-in-india-wayward.html)). Sharma et al. was the only paper to ever produce anything resembling detectable (>1%) N1c-Tat in the Subcontinent. Of course, this wouldn't rule out the Hephthalites had it. In fact, if the Hepththalites did have N1c-Tat, it would actually support the argument against a significant contribution by them in India.
They could be basically everything which had a historical presence in this region even L657+ even when I think this is unlikely. L657- is dominating the R1a clades of Kalash which are direct descendants of Bronze Age Indo-Aryans so I think most of L657- in South Asia arrived together with L657+ carriers in the Bronze Age. Modern distribution of Y-DNA lineages don't have to resemble that of 1000 or 2000 years ago. We can not say anything definitive about their Y-DNA now and we don't not even know where they exactly originated. Z2124 is most logical for them but linking other haplogroups to Hephthalites is too speculative in my opinion as long as this is not verified by ancient dna

parasar
09-15-2015, 06:30 PM
I read a theory a long time ago, from somewhere I can't recall and that I can't quote from memory (as usual) that: Old Sindh populus + Seva Huna or Hephtalite = Rajput or Gujjar or Jatt -- or something of that accord. Meaning pre-Jatt northward migrations occurred and interacted with the Seva Huna etc to form these populations?

I might have stated the theory incorrectly, mixed things up, but I think you know what I am referring to.

That Shveta Huna (White Hun, Spet Hyon, Leukoi Ounnoi), Khazar, Gujjar theory was proposed on some completely baseless grounds. One of its proponents was the 'eminent' historian Bhandarkar.
The same one who said this about the Indus Valley, without pondering over the possibility that IVC period bricks could indeed be close to the modern type:
D.R. Bhandarkar, 1911—12, Superintending Archaeologist of the Western Circle of the Archaeological Survey of India, in his report - "I was greatly disappointed ... not representing the remains of ... any ancient monument ... According to local tradition, these are the ruins of a town only two hundred years old ... This seems not incorrect, because the bricks here found are of the modern type ..."

Bhandarkar's theory was expounded upon by others including VA Smith: https://books.google.com/books?id=W0EbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303

Afshar
09-15-2015, 06:36 PM
I'm sharing with a Minhas Rajput who is Q1* and a Kashmiri Pandit who is Q1a*. Could these possibly have any connection to Huns?

Funny thing is I also share with the Kashmiri Pandit on Gedmatch, if we talk about the same guy, altough our subclade doesnt seem to match.

bored
09-15-2015, 06:45 PM
Rajput connection to Hoons was known prior to the British period. Eg. Aralla Devi (Hoon) was the wife of Karn Dev (Kalachuri). Hariya Devi (Hoon) was the wife of Allat (Guhil). At that time though they (Guhil, Kalachuri) were not known as Rajputs.

Jatt claim to Scythian (Shak) ancestry completely post-dates the British.

Interestingly, there is a Rajput clan by the same name - Hoon (or Hon).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rajput_clans_of_Punjab

BMG
09-16-2015, 01:47 AM
Is that the Malik, which is also in the q project?

Yes he is the one .There was a jatt ystr study long ago .There many haryanvi jatt appeared to be Q
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16950585

Afshar
09-16-2015, 06:49 AM
Yes he is the one .There was a jatt ystr study long ago .There many haryanvi jatt appeared to be Q
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16950585
Looks all like Q1a, but a bit different than Malik. Snp results of these would help a lot.

paulgill
09-16-2015, 08:06 AM
Jatt claim to Scythian (Shak) ancestry completely post-dates the British.

How could that be so, where the Jatt R1a1a have come from then, it certainly is not local, but initially a part of Indo-Aryans, the part (cousins) that were left behind and came down south later, and I think the location of the real Mahabharta War1 perhaps was in the Indo-Aryans' original place in north, and they were just displaced by their cousins who came to be known as Scythians later, the roots of animosity between these two groups might be much deeper, older and was well known to them in the past.
,

paulgill
09-16-2015, 08:23 AM
Is that the Malik, which is also in the q project?

There are tons of Q haplogroup Malik Jatts mostly in Haryana and UP, then Malik is only the title, not their original surname.

bored
09-16-2015, 08:28 AM
Yes he is the one .There was a jatt ystr study long ago .There many haryanvi jatt appeared to be Q
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16950585

It's not just Jatts. Q is found in many other groups. Like I said I share with a Minhas Rajput who is Q and a Kashmiri Pandit. Actually a Maratha I share with is also Q.

Afshar
09-16-2015, 08:33 AM
There are tons of Q haplogroup Malik Jatts mostly in Haryana and UP, then Malik is only the title, not their original surname.
Where can I find these (str or Snp) Qs?

paulgill
09-16-2015, 08:49 AM
Where can I find these (str or Snp) Qs?

I can't really help you in that as I came to know that from some UP and Haryana Jatts, I am not in touch with them anymore.

bored
09-16-2015, 08:56 AM
Where can I find these (str or Snp) Qs?

You might find some South Asian Qs on Dr_McNinja's haplogroup spreadsheet. It's in his signature. That's how I found the Rajput Q individual.

Afshar
09-16-2015, 09:46 AM
It's not just Jatts. Q is found in many other groups. Like I said I share with a Minhas Rajput who is Q and a Kashmiri Pandit. Actually a Maratha I share with is also Q.
Are those all endogamous tribes/castes? How does it work with outsiders?

BMG
09-16-2015, 11:31 AM
It's not just Jatts. Q is found in many other groups. Like I said I share with a Minhas Rajput who is Q and a Kashmiri Pandit. Actually a Maratha I share with is also Q.
Q is definitely not limited to jatts .Actually it shows up around 7% in my state .I was specifically talking about Q-M25 or Q1a2 (in 23 and me ).Most of the Q1 in 23andme would be Q1b which is represented in Yfull analysis of 1000 genomes.The majority of Q though is under Q-M346 subgroup which share common ancestor with the native americans

Afshar
09-16-2015, 12:03 PM
Q is definitely not limited to jatts .Actually it shows up around 7% in my state .I was specifically talking about Q-M25 or Q1a2 (in 23 and me ).Most of the Q1 in 23andme would be Q1b which is represented in Yfull analysis of 1000 genomes.The majority of Q though is under Q-M346 subgroup which share common ancestor with the native americans
Do you know the terminal snp of the Q-M25s?

BMG
09-16-2015, 12:13 PM
Do you know the terminal snp of the Q-M25s?

I Think it would be Q-L712 same as PJL Sample HG02696

Afshar
09-16-2015, 12:15 PM
I Think it would be Q-L712 same as PJL Sample HG02696
Too bad 23andme doesnt test for L712

BMG
09-16-2015, 12:23 PM
Too bad 23andme doesnt test for L712
Anyway there is also a new sample from Turkey who is also L712*

parasar
09-16-2015, 02:38 PM
Jatt claim to Scythian (Shak) ancestry completely post-dates the British.


How could that be so, where the Jatt R1a1a have come from then, it certainly is not local, but initially a part of Indo-Aryans, the part (cousins) that were left behind and came down south later, and I think the location of the real Mahabharta War1 perhaps was in the Indo-Aryans' original place in north, and they were just displaced by their cousins who came to be known as Scythians later, the roots of animosity between these two groups might be much deeper, older and was well known to them in the past.
,

If Jatts are descended of Scythians, perhaps by the time of the first Arab intrusions into India, the Jatts had forgotten about it. Much like the Kalash descent from Macedonians, the story/theory of Jatt descent from Scythians is post British. No Arab, Turko-Mongol, Persian, or Indic account mentions it.

parasar
09-16-2015, 02:44 PM
As far Hun rule in India goes, it historically it relies on connecting Mihirkul with Huns.

We have three sources often cited in support:

1. The ye-tha of Song Yun. Yun visited Gandhara in 518AD and reported that two generations back, ie about 468AD Gandhara was overrun by the ye-tha (hephthalites) but he did not find them there at the time of his visit. Going by Mihirkul's inscriptions and that of others, Mihirakul ruled about 510AD to 528AD. Therefore I do not accept this connection.

2. In 547AD, Cosmas Indicopleustes, mentions that "Higher up in India, that is, farther to the north, are the White Huns. The one called Gollas when going to war takes with him, it is said, no fewer than two thousand elephants, and a great force of cavalry. He is the lord of India, and oppressing the people forces them to pay tribute. A story goes that this king once upon a time would lay siege to an inland city of the Indians which was on every side protected by water. A long while he sat down before it, until what with his elephants, his horses and his soldiers all the water had been drunk up. He then crossed over to the city dry-shod, and took it." http://www29.homepage.villanova.edu/christopher.haas/cosmas_indicopleustes.htm
Now by 547AD, Mihirakula was clearly gone but perhaps Cosmas was recounting a recent legend. Historians have also noted here Gollas and Kula are similar sounding and that Mihirakula was known for his large elephant force used to subdue cities and the similarity of the Island story later told by Xuanzang. I am not convinced that this is good evidence either.

3. The evidence from Toraman. Mihirakul is the son or at least related to Toraman. Of this there is no doubt. So if Toramana is a Ephthalite then a confirmed case can be made that Mihirakula was also a Hephthalite. Tormana's coins are almost identical to Gupta coins. His Kura inscription calls him Shah Jau (bula). So do some coins though it not certain if they are Toramana's. But again nowhere is Hun mentioned. He is considered a Hun by historians mainly on the premise that Jaubula and Toramana are Turkish looking words, even though no Turk with the names Toraman or Jaubul [now Zabul, Zabol] has been found. Some coins (that are not confirmed to be Toraman's are supposed) to have a symbol called the "Ephthalite Symbol."

Overall, the evidence for a Hun connection is very weak.

As far as how these supposed Huns looked, we perhaps have some evidence from their Dinar:
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4Zw4pThXTTu3e7_Nca9HDmddfMuC1ulNu5B2LC10zTlr22-CNWwU-HIWD9DQXjLX8qxCzdDKgewwqpvxePmJ0PGLbWwpy4N3Lxl901d tYQUtX-QMgIQhbbxItDrGA6MYin-9WaeR3DgQx8n2Agz3fR0U87s25R0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/sites/default/files/images/coins/03a_310_JPR_0940_01.jpg

https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/KhiyZSy4jO_PsFFrYOL-4Wd9_Fn2fHeDR8L0onQS4aIkbhvXg-tSTYuWJ04lS-n4l2hMWGddN-WYGSoVkdPTQk3uDKfFnnHJlObI2aKJHX5z09ea6TSjLCL5BwK1 3_Tql_IeIdUvnn3S0qpTAnztnYIitpBj92pdP5jVOh8xaxO3aT 0UhySw1KY=s0-d-e1-ft#http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/sites/default/files/images/showcase/objects/A_Prakasaditya_01_geschn_0.png


The facial features hardly look any different from Kumar Gupt's Dinar:
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/81XqZU50fsihGrow8xA0bIrnbtRq2DKe2wsIHiSqVzjn-nYJwp8_mg04XNpGMPbwFpcDlshJ0B_qP2T80aQNYpP6SCdr0XB K0APIxKaBb1vLQH_xpLteUg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Kumaragupta.JPG

Afshar
09-16-2015, 02:54 PM
3. The evidence from Toraman. Mihirakul is the son or at least related to Toraman. Of this there is no doubt. So if Toramana is a Ephthalite then a confirmed case can be made that Mihirakula was also a Hephthalite. Tormana's coins are almost identical to Gupta coins. His Kura inscription calls him Shah Jau (bula). So do some coins though it not certain if they are Toramana's. But again nowhere is Hun mentioned. He is considered a Hun by historians mainly on the premise that Jaubula and Toramana are Turkish looking words, even though no Turk with the names Toraman or Jaubul [now Zabul, Zabol] has been found. Some coins (that are not confirmed to be Toraman's are supposed) to have a symbol called the "Ephthalite Symbol."


Toraman is used in Turkey as a (place)name, and there is also a yoruk Turkmen tribe that calls themselves Toraman.

khanabadoshi
09-16-2015, 04:37 PM
The resolution of those coins. Wow.

parasar
09-16-2015, 04:57 PM
Toraman is used in Turkey as a (place)name, and there is also a yoruk Turkmen tribe that calls themselves Toraman.

In Indic languages too Tur is used for Turks, eg. Turukkha, Turushka.

The name on the inscription is tOramANa (as best I could transliterate in English!):
https://books.google.com/books?id=dpdIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA239&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0YKAwhZIElbfoketqMcJwC2ydppQ&ci=147%2C951%2C577%2C65&edge=0

bored
09-16-2015, 05:48 PM
In Indic languages too Tur is used for Turks, eg. Turukkha, Turushka.

The name on the inscription is tOramANa (as best I could transliterate in English!):
https://books.google.com/books?id=dpdIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA239&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0YKAwhZIElbfoketqMcJwC2ydppQ&ci=147%2C951%2C577%2C65&edge=0

To me it looks like tormana or torman.

Coldmountains
09-16-2015, 05:53 PM
As far Hun rule in India goes, it historically it relies on connecting Mihirkul with Huns.

We have three sources often cited in support:

1. The ye-tha of Song Yun. Yun visited Gandhara in 518AD and reported that two generations back, ie about 468AD Gandhara was overrun by the ye-tha (hephthalites) but he did not find them there at the time of his visit. Going by Mihirkul's inscriptions and that of others, Mihirakul ruled about 510AD to 528AD. Therefore I do not accept this connection.

2. In 547AD, Cosmas Indicopleustes, mentions that "Higher up in India, that is, farther to the north, are the White Huns. The one called Gollas when going to war takes with him, it is said, no fewer than two thousand elephants, and a great force of cavalry. He is the lord of India, and oppressing the people forces them to pay tribute. A story goes that this king once upon a time would lay siege to an inland city of the Indians which was on every side protected by water. A long while he sat down before it, until what with his elephants, his horses and his soldiers all the water had been drunk up. He then crossed over to the city dry-shod, and took it." http://www29.homepage.villanova.edu/christopher.haas/cosmas_indicopleustes.htm
Now by 547AD, Mihirakula was clearly gone but perhaps Cosmas was recounting a recent legend. Historians have also noted here Gollas and Kula are similar sounding and that Mihirakula was known for his large elephant force used to subdue cities and the similarity of the Island story later told by Xuanzang. I am not convinced that this is good evidence either.

3. The evidence from Toraman. Mihirakul is the son or at least related to Toraman. Of this there is no doubt. So if Toramana is a Ephthalite then a confirmed case can be made that Mihirakula was also a Hephthalite. Tormana's coins are almost identical to Gupta coins. His Kura inscription calls him Shah Jau (bula). So do some coins though it not certain if they are Toramana's. But again nowhere is Hun mentioned. He is considered a Hun by historians mainly on the premise that Jaubula and Toramana are Turkish looking words, even though no Turk with the names Toraman or Jaubul [now Zabul, Zabol] has been found. Some coins (that are not confirmed to be Toraman's are supposed) to have a symbol called the "Ephthalite Symbol."

Overall, the evidence for a Hun connection is very weak.

As far as how these supposed Huns looked, we perhaps have some evidence from their Dinar:
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4Zw4pThXTTu3e7_Nca9HDmddfMuC1ulNu5B2LC10zTlr22-CNWwU-HIWD9DQXjLX8qxCzdDKgewwqpvxePmJ0PGLbWwpy4N3Lxl901d tYQUtX-QMgIQhbbxItDrGA6MYin-9WaeR3DgQx8n2Agz3fR0U87s25R0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/sites/default/files/images/coins/03a_310_JPR_0940_01.jpg

https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/KhiyZSy4jO_PsFFrYOL-4Wd9_Fn2fHeDR8L0onQS4aIkbhvXg-tSTYuWJ04lS-n4l2hMWGddN-WYGSoVkdPTQk3uDKfFnnHJlObI2aKJHX5z09ea6TSjLCL5BwK1 3_Tql_IeIdUvnn3S0qpTAnztnYIitpBj92pdP5jVOh8xaxO3aT 0UhySw1KY=s0-d-e1-ft#http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/sites/default/files/images/showcase/objects/A_Prakasaditya_01_geschn_0.png


The facial features hardly look any different from Kumar Gupt's Dinar:
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/81XqZU50fsihGrow8xA0bIrnbtRq2DKe2wsIHiSqVzjn-nYJwp8_mg04XNpGMPbwFpcDlshJ0B_qP2T80aQNYpP6SCdr0XB K0APIxKaBb1vLQH_xpLteUg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Kumaragupta.JPG

Clearly Turkic elements penetrate Hephthalites later when Turks arrived in Central Asia and expanded on costs of the Hephtalite confederation. The names of the rulers (Mihirakula, Toramana,..) are East Iranian as far as I know and they were clearly distinguished from the Turks which around this times started to expand.




For Enoki, Ephthalite origins may be determined by considering where they were not, as well as by where their conquests drove their enemies. They were not previously north of the Tien Shan, thus they did not stem from that region. They drove the Kidarites out of Balkh to the west, thus they came originally from the east. By such reasoning, the Ephthalites are thought to have originated at Hsi-mo-ta-lo (southwest of Badakhshan and near the Hindu Kush), which tantalizingly, stands for Himtala, "snow plain", which may be the Sanskritized form of Hephthal.

Turning to the elements of Ephthalite culture, Enoki notes that Procopius' comments on their appearance while not decisive, are in favor of an Iranian theory. Similarly, the seventh century travels of Hsuan Chwang show that he found no physical difference between the descendants of the Ephthalites and their known Iranian neighbors. As for their language, commentators made clear that it was neither Turkish nor Mongol, which also seems to support an Iranian origin.

Iranian customs also are common in the Ephthalite world. For example, the practice of several husbands to one wife, or polyandry, was always the rule, which is agreed on by all commentators. That this was plain was evidenced by the custom among the women of wearing a hat containing a number of horns, one for each of the subsequent husbands, all of whom were also brothers to the husband. Indeed, if a husband had no natural brothers, he would adopt another man to be his brother so that he would be allowed to marry. Conjugal rights were traded off and children were assigned in turn with the oldest husband receiving the first and so on. Tellingly, polyandry has never been associated with any Hun tribe, but is known of several Central Asian ones, including the Aryans in India, other Indo-Europeans and probably in prehistoric Iran.

, ,,

surbakhunWeesste
09-16-2015, 06:09 PM
In Indic languages too Tur is used for Turks, eg. Turukkha, Turushka.

The name on the inscription is tOramANa (as best I could transliterate in English!):
https://books.google.com/books?id=dpdIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA239&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0YKAwhZIElbfoketqMcJwC2ydppQ&ci=147%2C951%2C577%2C65&edge=0
Can you link the source? looks interesting. Btw Tor = black, Mana(retroflex)= apple in Pashto

Edit: mah bad, the link is there.


https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=FcKtIPVQ6REC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=toramana&f=false

DMXX
09-16-2015, 06:26 PM
Toroman also happens to be a Turkish surname. I believe there's a football player from Turkey with it.

[Edit]: Here, Ibrahim Toraman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0brahim_Toraman), played for Beşiktaş.

Afshar
09-16-2015, 06:45 PM
This should not be a discussion about their origin, but their genetic impact on india.

surbakhunWeesste
09-16-2015, 06:47 PM
The Hūnas and the Hephthalites (according to Yamada: Hephthals) were
independent and separate tribes who invaded and displaced native leaders and
established hegemonies in two distinct parts of India according to M. Yamada. The
Hephthalite king Toramana, who had the title Shāhi jaūwla, is different from śrī
Toramāna, the Hūna king. The name Toramana mentioned in central Indian
inscriptions refers to the Hūna king, while the name Toramana found on coins
unearthed in Taxila refers to a Hephthalite king. Mihirakula, the son of Toramana,
was an Hūna king; he was not the Hephthalite king that Song Yun, met in Gandhara
in AD 520. The Hūnas controlled an area that extended from Malwa in central India
to Kashmir. The Hephthalites, a nomadic tribe unrelated to the Hūnas, possibly
passed through the Kabul valley and invaded northwestern India sometime after AD
477. Their power did not extend as far as Gandhara in northwestern India. The
Hephthalites invaded India from the north and moved into Gandhara and Taxila, but
they did not move any further into central India.101

http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf

parasar
09-16-2015, 06:58 PM
To me it looks like tormana or torman.

There is a vertical line after म which would make it maa or mA.
And the na is the is this one - ण - which would make it ṇa or Na.

surbakhunWeesste
09-16-2015, 07:06 PM
There is a vertical line after म which would make it maa or mA.
And the na is the is this one - ण - which would make it ṇa or Na.

I think he meant the devnagari reads as Tor and not Tora because there is no | after र to make it tora

parasar
09-16-2015, 07:06 PM
This should not be a discussion about their origin, but their genetic impact on india.

Their origin goes a long way in determining their genetic impact. If they were from the borderlands (Bactria, W. Tibet) they would have an impact, but minimal genetically.

bored
09-16-2015, 07:10 PM
There is a vertical line after म which would make it maa or mA.
And the na is the is this one - ण - which would make it ṇa or Na.

I understand the Na but there's no vertical line after र to make it ra.

Afshar
09-16-2015, 07:15 PM
http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf

Nice!
A bit long but informative, I read some parts and she concludes their Turkic?

parasar
09-16-2015, 07:19 PM
I think he meant the devnagari reads as Tor and not Tora because there is no | after र to make it tora


I understand the Na but there's no vertical line after र to make it ra.

Right, I was transliterating to English.
To clarify, eg.:
k= क्
ka= क
kA= क|

parasar
09-16-2015, 07:51 PM
Clearly Turkic elements penetrate Hephthalites later when Turks arrived in Central Asia and expanded on costs of the Hephtalite confederation. The names of the rulers (Mihirakula, Toramana,..) are East Iranian as far as I know and they were clearly distinguished from the Turks which around this times started to expand.



, ,,

Enoki no doubt is the East Iranian camp with regards to the Hepthals, which is more in line with Xuanzhang's eyewitness account. The inscription where both Mihirkul and the Hoons are mentioned, is the one at Mandasor.
http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsouthasia/upload/Mandasor-of-Yashodharman.pdf
Most historians have concluded that here Mihirkul is being referred to as a Hoon. I just don't read it that way.

paulgill
09-17-2015, 12:31 AM
This should not be a discussion about their origin, but their genetic impact on india.

"The
Hephthalite king Toramana, who had the title Shāhi jaūwla, is different from śrī
Toramāna, the Hūna king."

Interesting, Jauwla sounds more like Jatt surname Jauhal/Johal.

bored
09-17-2015, 02:37 AM
"The
Hephthalite king Toramana, who had the title Shāhi jaūwla, is different from śrī
Toramāna, the Hūna king."

Interesting, Jauwla sounds more like Jatt surname Jauhal/Johal.

It also sounds like the Jatt surname Jawla and the Khatri surname Chawla.

kenji.aryan
09-17-2015, 06:10 AM
I think "Shāhi jaūwla" (which can mean royal fire in sanskrit) was just a title given to Hephthalite king Toramana and not a surname or something.

pegasus
09-17-2015, 07:24 AM
Shahi is an Iranic word or in this case Bactrian. But I agree its just a title.
There seems to be a variety of Iranic groups on the scene living in tandem or at various times in the region.
Kushans, Huns/Hepthalites , Indo Scythians , Indo Parthians.
I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians.

Afshar
09-17-2015, 07:27 AM
Shahi is an Iranic word or in this case Bactrian. But I agree its just a title.
There seems to be a variety of Iranic groups on the scene living in tandem or at various times in the region.
Kushans, Huns/Hepthalites , Indo Scythians , Indo Parthians.
I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians.
They all seem to be successors of the previous, just changing the tribe in command.

kenji.aryan
09-17-2015, 08:27 AM
Shahi is an Iranic word or in this case Bactrian. But I agree its just a title.
There seems to be a variety of Iranic groups on the scene living in tandem or at various times in the region.
Kushans, Huns/Hepthalites , Indo Scythians , Indo Parthians.
I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians.


I agree shahi is a Iranic word but in case of Hephtalite king Toramana it was given to him as a title so we should not take "Shahi Jauwala" as a surname to represent or to trace which tribe/caste can be Hephtalite descended or trace their origin to Hephtalites.

There are lot of surnames in India which are Highjacked by some groups like earlier landlords used to be Rajput so titles like "Chaudhary" used to given to them but later jatts start using them after they became landlords but that doesn't mean they both are same people. "Singh" surname was also first used by Rajputs later sikhs start using it. Another example is "Bakshi" surname which is a Kashmiri and Bengali brahmin surname but also found in Jatts. so, there are so many surnames which are just adopted by other tribes/caste or given to them by Mughals or British but that doesn't make them lost brothers. These days low castes start using High caste surnames and in cities they start describing themselves as High caste so, many of these people in coming years will assimilate into high castes as nobody knows in cities or urban areas whether you are telling truth or not as they will see only your surnames.

pegasus
09-17-2015, 03:38 PM
I agree shahi is a Iranic word but in case of Hephtalite king Toramana it was given to him as a title so we should not take "Shahi Jauwala" as a surname to represent or to trace which tribe/caste can be Hephtalite descended or trace their origin to Hephtalites.

There are lot of surnames in India which are Highjacked by some groups like earlier landlords used to be Rajput so titles like "Chaudhary" used to given to them but later jatts start using them after they became landlords but that doesn't mean they both are same people. "Singh" surname was also first used by Rajputs later sikhs start using it. Another example is "Bakshi" surname which is a Kashmiri and Bengali brahmin surname but also found in Jatts. so, there are so many surnames which are just adopted by other tribes/caste or given to them by Mughals or British but that doesn't make them lost brothers. These days low castes start using High caste surnames and in cities they start describing themselves as High caste so, many of these people in coming years will assimilate into high castes as nobody knows in cities or urban areas whether you are telling truth or not as they will see only your surnames.

I know that , I said I concurred with what you said earlier on titles.

paulgill
09-17-2015, 03:56 PM
I agree shahi is a Iranic word but in case of Hephtalite king Toramana it was given to him as a title so we should not take "Shahi Jauwala" as a surname to represent or to trace which tribe/caste can be Hephtalite descended or trace their origin to Hephtalites.

There are lot of surnames in India which are Highjacked by some groups like earlier landlords used to be Rajput so titles like "Chaudhary" used to given to them but later jatts start using them after they became landlords but that doesn't mean they both are same people. "Singh" surname was also first used by Rajputs later sikhs start using it. Another example is "Bakshi" surname which is a Kashmiri and Bengali brahmin surname but also found in Jatts. so, there are so many surnames which are just adopted by other tribes/caste or given to them by Mughals or British but that doesn't make them lost brothers. These days low castes start using High caste surnames and in cities they start describing themselves as High caste so, many of these people in coming years will assimilate into high castes as nobody knows in cities or urban areas whether you are telling truth or not as they will see only your surnames.

There was no such thing as Rajputs earlier on they are just some Jatts and Gujjars who chose to come under Brahmanism, and later, even to get rid of these, other tribals like Bhil and Kol were given Rajput status.

Afshar
09-17-2015, 05:28 PM
So what I am understanding is some castes formed in medieval times?

tamilgangster
09-17-2015, 06:33 PM
Actually could elevated East Eurasian be one sign of Hunnic admixture? I think they had some East Eurasian. It would be difficult to distinguish between Hunnic East Eurasian and other sources of East Eurasian.

Jatts, along with other NW indian populations, have negligable amounts of east eurasian admixture on eurogenes k7. Other" south asian populations from central and south india have visibly higher east Eurasian percentages, in comparisOn. Huns and scythian werent East Asian related in any way. Central Asia at the time was indoeuropean at the time of Huns and scythians. East Eurasian influence in Central Asian is a result of subsequent invasions from Turkic and Mongolian groups centuries later

bored
09-17-2015, 06:49 PM
Jatts, along with other NW indian populations, have negligable amounts of east eurasian admixture on eurogenes k7. Other" south asian populations from central and south india have visibly higher east Eurasian percentages, in comparisOn. Huns and scythian werent East Asian related in any way. Central Asia at the time was indoeuropean at the time of Huns and scythians. East Eurasian influence in Central Asian is a result of subsequent invasions from Turkic and Mongolian groups centuries later

Well, I think some of that Amerindian stuff (Siberian, American, Beringian etc) is actually East Eurasian and pretty much all South Asians get some.

pegasus
09-17-2015, 06:50 PM
Jatts, along with other NW indian populations, have negligable amounts of east eurasian admixture on eurogenes k7. Other" south asian populations from central and south india have visibly higher east Eurasian percentages, in comparisOn. Huns and scythian werent East Asian related in any way. Central Asia at the time was indoeuropean at the time of Huns and scythians. East Eurasian influence in Central Asian is a result of subsequent invasions from Turkic and Mongolian groups centuries later

That would hold true for Western Scythians ,but the Eastern Branch was already mixing with Proto Turks from the Altai in Antiquity. Though for the other groups your right , it would be negligable.

tamilgangster
09-17-2015, 07:04 PM
Well, I think some of that Amerindian stuff (Siberian, American, Beringian etc) is actually East Eurasian and pretty much all South Asians get some.

The berigian Siberian and Amerindian components aren't mongoioid admixture but noise from ANE/EHG, it's not east Eurasian related.

bored
09-17-2015, 07:06 PM
The berigian Siberian and Amerindian components aren't mongoioid admixture but noise from ANE/EHG, it's not east Eurasian related.

Well, the jury is still out on that one. I count it as East Eurasian, at least in part.

parasar
09-17-2015, 10:16 PM
I agree shahi is a Iranic word but in case of Hephtalite king Toramana it was given to him as a title so we should not take "Shahi Jauwala" as a surname to represent or to trace which tribe/caste can be Hephtalite descended or trace their origin to Hephtalites.

There are lot of surnames in India which are Highjacked by some groups like earlier landlords used to be Rajput so titles like "Chaudhary" used to given to them but later jatts start using them after they became landlords but that doesn't mean they both are same people. "Singh" surname was also first used by Rajputs later sikhs start using it. Another example is "Bakshi" surname which is a Kashmiri and Bengali brahmin surname but also found in Jatts. so, there are so many surnames which are just adopted by other tribes/caste or given to them by Mughals or British but that doesn't make them lost brothers. These days low castes start using High caste surnames and in cities they start describing themselves as High caste so, many of these people in coming years will assimilate into high castes as nobody knows in cities or urban areas whether you are telling truth or not as they will see only your surnames.

Javula is the modern Zabul. Jaguda=Javula=Zabul.
Downfall of the Yadavas of Jaguda to the Turks.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Fl0l5ZTkNxIC&pg=PA151

tamilgangster
09-17-2015, 10:36 PM
Well, the jury is still out on that one. I count it as East Eurasian, at least in part.

On harappa DNA Every South Asian population including jatts have siberian percentages below 2 percent. Amerindian and Beringian components occur sporadically at only 1 percent in select south asian populations without any correlation(including jatts). SIberian component only occurs at elevated levels among adivasis, NE populations and Himalayan populations. Siberian component is found even among khmers, thais, and lahu. Even if the siberian component is east eurasian related it could likely be from austroasiatic tribals. So the Idea that Scythian Hphatalites etc have east eurasian affinities really has no basis.

Afshar
09-18-2015, 06:14 AM
On harappa DNA Every South Asian population including jatts have siberian percentages below 2 percent. Amerindian and Beringian components occur sporadically at only 1 percent in select south asian populations without any correlation(including jatts). SIberian component only occurs at elevated levels among adivasis, NE populations and Himalayan populations. Siberian component is found even among khmers, thais, and lahu. Even if the siberian component is east eurasian related it could likely be from austroasiatic tribals. So the Idea that Scythian Hphatalites etc have east eurasian affinities really has no basis.
So you know the autosomal composition of the Scythians and Hepthalites?

sunny
09-27-2015, 11:53 AM
https://periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/the-hephthalites-white-huns-and-the-genesis-of-the-avars-nomad-peoples-of-eurasia/

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/exhibit/hephthalites/hephthalite.html

Afshar
09-27-2015, 03:24 PM
https://periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/the-hephthalites-white-huns-and-the-genesis-of-the-avars-nomad-peoples-of-eurasia/

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/exhibit/hephthalites/hephthalite.html
If I sum up all those sources it favours a Turkic origin, that is for sure. But the Avar theory is interesting, that means that they didnt settle and migrated en masse, and so didnt assimilate in the local population

Afshar
09-27-2015, 03:41 PM
There seems to be a theory that they were called 'uar/var', and avars settled in caucasus after the destruction of yhe hephtalite empire. Bit difficult to connect all these sources

sunny
09-27-2015, 04:14 PM
‘…The mere sight or mention of a Hephthalite terrified everybody, and there was no question of going to war openly against one, for everybody remembered all too clearly the calamities and defeats inflicted by the Hephthalites on the king of the Aryans and on the Persians.’
-Lazar of P’arp[1]

http://www.oocities.org/ziadnumis2/ksintro.htm

sunny
09-27-2015, 04:59 PM
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/20Roots/EphthalitesEn.htm

''He put forward his own hypothesis, suggesting that the Kidarites, Chionites and Hephthalites were different peoples: the Kidarites were Yuezhi (Tokhars); the Chionites (or Huni) were residents of “Marsh sites “from the northern shore of the Aral Sea, and were descendants of the Saka tribe “Huaona“ (i.e. Huns); the Hephthalites were mountain people, tribal descendants of light-haired Baidi people, who in the 7th century BC came from the northwestern China to the mountainous area of the Pamir and Hindukush. For eight hundred years, Baidi might have mixed with the local Aryan tribes of Indo-Iranian group and in the Kushan time (1st - 2nd centuries AD), one of the branches of the tribe Hua, settled in the valley Eftal, received a new name “Hephthalites“ (Greek) or “Yeda“ (Chinese) from the name of the valley or perhaps on behalf of the first leader. At the end of 4th c. AD the Hephthalites were already an organized tribe, and at the beginning of the 5th c. AD their state claimed hegemony in Central Asia and India. This expansion, according to Gumilev, occurred through a union of all the mountain tribes of the Pamir and the Hindukush, which involved the expansion of the concept Eftal. Thus, according to the hypotheses of Gumilev, the Hephthalites were the people of the mountainous areas of the Pamir and the Hindukush. 12''

parasar
09-29-2015, 05:33 PM
If I sum up all those sources it favours a Turkic origin, that is for sure. But the Avar theory is interesting, that means that they didnt settle and migrated en masse, and so didnt assimilate in the local population

As you can see no one knows about Hephthalites with any certainty.
As far as their legacy in India, Indic texts do not mention them and any connection to the Mihirkul family is not only tenuous but IMO wrong.

On Mihirkul we have the following:

1. Mihirkul's inscription. http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsouthasia/upload/Gwalior-of-Mihirakula.pdf
2. Dinars. http://coinindia.com/Alchon.pdf
3. Xuanzang's description from stories prevalent in ~650AD. http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsouthasia/upload/Xuan-Zang-Book-IV.pdf
4. Pandit Kalhan's history. https://archive.org/stream/RajataranginiOfKalhana-English-JogeshChunderDuttVolumes12/Rajatarangini-JogeshChunderDuttVol2_djvu.txt
5. Yashodharman's inscription. http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsouthasia/upload/Mandasor-of-Yashodharman.pdf

So I think one can make up one's mind based on the above primary and secondary sources.

sunny
10-01-2015, 06:26 PM
Yes ''no one knows about Hephthalites with any certainty'' but the appearance on there coins give a very good clue. Just as the Saka/Scynthians (who both the Turks/Iranians also claim as being a Turkish/Iranian tribe) are depicted as Nordic looking (European type people) on there coins. There skeletal remains showed the same. In the same way it is very likely the Hepthalites were a light/light to dark featured West Asian tribe (West Asian type people).

DMXX
10-01-2015, 09:33 PM
Shahi is an Iranic word or in this case Bactrian. But I agree its just a title.
There seems to be a variety of Iranic groups on the scene living in tandem or at various times in the region.
Kushans, Huns/Hepthalites , Indo Scythians , Indo Parthians.
I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians.

Based on several lines of evidence, looks like the Kushans presided over a multicultural society. One good example being the number of titles their kings adopted, which were of Iranic, Indo-Aryan and Indo-Aryanised Sinitic origin.

This isn't unexpected, given the Tarim basin itself was home to several kingdoms of considerable size (the Han Chinese gave estimations using their li system) that were multilingual.

sunny
10-02-2015, 10:56 AM
pegasus

''I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians''

The Scynthian genetic impact is likely very small 1-2% if that even, or else you would find more Nordic type face shapes amongst south asians but there isn't. Unless there numbers were large a small tribe would unlikely have been able to make an impact on so many different groups (i.e Rajputs, Pathans, Ahirs, Gujjars, Baloches and Jats), especially in the case of invasion. In the case of migration it may be more possible but again that would limit the size of the genetic impact in these areas as opposed to a single genetic impact in one area of the region.

purohit
10-02-2015, 11:35 AM
kya bhai logo kaise ho. can i write here in hindi

parasar
10-02-2015, 05:26 PM
Based on several lines of evidence, looks like the Kushans presided over a multicultural society. One good example being the number of titles their kings adopted, which were of Iranic, Indo-Aryan and Indo-Aryanised Sinitic origin.

This isn't unexpected, given the Tarim basin itself was home to several kingdoms of considerable size (the Han Chinese gave estimations using their li system) that were multilingual.

I think you are referring to Devaputra title of the Kushans, right?
If so I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sintic. Devaputra I think is Buddhistic. Another example would be Haritiputra.

The Chinese Son of Heaven equivalent would be Svargaputra not Devaputra.

Devaputta is a frequent title in the Pali Canon.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2av2SuI8PpoC&pg=PA55
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devaputta.htm



Shahi is an Iranic word or in this case Bactrian. But I agree its just a title.
There seems to be a variety of Iranic groups on the scene living in tandem or at various times in the region.
Kushans, Huns/Hepthalites , Indo Scythians , Indo Parthians.
I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians.

That looks likely.
The first usage of Sah is by the Kushans I believe - saonano sao, the form is ultimately considered to be of Semitic origin via the Persians, and then went back to the Persians in the forms of Shahanshah and Kushanshah.

DMXX
10-03-2015, 12:02 AM
I think you are referring to Devaputra title of the Kushans, right?
If so I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sintic. Devaputra I think is Buddhistic. Another example would be Haritiputra.


Indeed. Devaputrasa (son of God/heaven), which is speculated to have a Chinese derivation in quite a few texts (example (https://books.google.com.qa/books?id=pYM3AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=devaputrasa&source=bl&ots=ubJRYVf-Rw&sig=glR_HwsL6PZjwIIWXhMrDWLrJm8&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=devaputrasa&f=false)). The language isn't Sinitic, but the invocation of "heavens" is very much a hallmark of Han Chinese culture (recall they referred to the horses of Ferghana as "heavenly").

I also forgot to mention Kaisarasa (Caesar). That one should be obvious enough (some form of residual Greco-Bactrian culture existed which necessitated them to invoke this).

parasar
10-03-2015, 02:54 PM
Indeed. Devaputrasa (son of God/heaven), which is speculated to have a Chinese derivation in quite a few texts (example (https://books.google.com.qa/books?id=pYM3AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=devaputrasa&source=bl&ots=ubJRYVf-Rw&sig=glR_HwsL6PZjwIIWXhMrDWLrJm8&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=devaputrasa&f=false)). The language isn't Sinitic, but the invocation of "heavens" is very much a hallmark of Han Chinese culture (recall they referred to the horses of Ferghana as "heavenly").

I also forgot to mention Kaisarasa (Caesar). That one should be obvious enough (some form of residual Greco-Bactrian culture existed which necessitated them to invoke this).

I think too that Kesar is likely a Roman influence. Though if you recall the etymology of Latin Kaeser is given from hair - Kaesaries. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caesaries
And the lion - the maned one - has been called Kesar (also used for saffron). https://books.google.com/books?id=UX_AeDYzhBQC&pg=PA180

Afshar
10-03-2015, 08:09 PM
Indeed. Devaputrasa (son of God/heaven), which is speculated to have a Chinese derivation in quite a few texts (example (https://books.google.com.qa/books?id=pYM3AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=devaputrasa&source=bl&ots=ubJRYVf-Rw&sig=glR_HwsL6PZjwIIWXhMrDWLrJm8&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=devaputrasa&f=false)). The language isn't Sinitic, but the invocation of "heavens" is very much a hallmark of Han Chinese culture (recall they referred to the horses of Ferghana as "heavenly").

I also forgot to mention Kaisarasa (Caesar). That one should be obvious enough (some form of residual Greco-Bactrian culture existed which necessitated them to invoke this).
Doesnt the use of titles differ per source?
One can imagine different titles were used to gain more prestige as a leader, so it doesnt have to say much, considering some empires were multi ethnic.

DMXX
10-04-2015, 05:08 AM
Doesnt the use of titles differ per source?
One can imagine different titles were used to gain more prestige as a leader, so it doesnt have to say much, considering some empires were multi ethnic.

To some extent, yes, you're likely right. I am not anything of an expert regarding the cultural tropes of the Kushans, but it is certainly possible that some of the four royal titles they adopted were simply past conventions used to convey more prestige by invoking older notions. That is pretty much what I suggested in my second sentence.

On the topic of the Hephthalites and returning to the Turkish connection, Dr. Farrokh's book Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War indicates there was enough interaction between the two that they allied against Sassanid Persia (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p7kltwf9yrwC&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=hephthalite+khagan&source=bl&ots=1DEtqEjDeB&sig=T84DTFH-F8lJX8a70xtZUIz-pZU&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hephthalite%20khagan&f=false) just before the empire's fall to Mohammad's armies.

I do also remember some literature which stated the regional organisation of the Hephthalites indicated Turkish influence. Perhaps parasar can remember the specific Turkish-related word I am thinking of? I've said it before on DNA-Forums, but your memory has always been impeccable. :)

parasar
10-04-2015, 09:27 PM
Doesnt the use of titles differ per source?
One can imagine different titles were used to gain more prestige as a leader, so it doesnt have to say much, considering some empires were multi ethnic.

Plus as far as Kaisar and Dinar go, if borrowed from the Romans, they can't possibly imply any Roman ethnic component in the Kushan empire, just simple borrowing.


To some extent, yes, you're likely right. I am not anything of an expert regarding the cultural tropes of the Kushans, but it is certainly possible that some of the four royal titles they adopted were simply past conventions used to convey more prestige by invoking older notions. That is pretty much what I suggested in my second sentence.

On the topic of the Hephthalites and returning to the Turkish connection, Dr. Farrokh's book Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War indicates there was enough interaction between the two that they allied against Sassanid Persia (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p7kltwf9yrwC&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=hephthalite+khagan&source=bl&ots=1DEtqEjDeB&sig=T84DTFH-F8lJX8a70xtZUIz-pZU&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hephthalite%20khagan&f=false) just before the empire's fall to Mohammad's armies.

I do also remember some literature which stated the regional organisation of the Hephthalites indicated Turkish influence. Perhaps parasar can remember the specific Turkish-related word I am thinking of? I've said it before on DNA-Forums, but your memory has always been impeccable. :)

There are number of names, title, etc. that have been considered Turkic - Lagaturman/Torman, Kidar, Jabul, Khingila, Tunjina/Barhategin, Katulphos - this last is definitely connected to a Hephtalite.
But perhaps you are thinking of Udayaditya Lakhana (Skt. Lakshamana) considered to be derived from Alakhana.
http://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/coinindia/36/product/india_hephthalites_alchon_huns_udayaditya_silver_d rachm_scarce__choice/81361/Default.aspx

Ebizur
10-05-2015, 10:49 AM
As for kaisara > kesar, I suppose a borrowing from Latin Caesar might be most likely in this case, but in connection with the similitude with Latin caesariēs ("hair of the head") and Sanskrit kesara ("hair; mane; saffron, etc."), I note another perhaps randomly similar word from goo's online dictionary of the Japanese language (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/40824/m0u/%E3%81%8B%E3%81%97%E3%82%89/):

かしら【頭】
kashira (often written with the Chinese character for tu "head")

[名][n.]
1 人間や動物の首から上の部分。あたま。こうべ。
1 The part of a human or an animal from the neck upward. Atama. Koube. (These are other Japanese words for "head.")

2 髪の毛。頭髪。
2 Hair of the head. Touhatsu (Japanese pronunciation of Chinese tu-fa "head-hair" = "hair of the head").

3 物のいちばん上、または先の部分。先端。
3 The uppermost part (= top, first, eldest) or tip of something. Sentan.

4 一団の人々を統率する人。統領。特に、鳶職 (とびしょく) ・大工・左官など職人の親方。
4 A person who leads a group of people. A leader. Especially, a boss of workmen such as construction workers, carpenters, plasterers, etc.

5 (「首」とも書く)人形の首から上の部分。特に、人形浄瑠璃の人形の頭部。
5 (also written as 「首」) The part of a doll or puppet from the neck upward. Especially, the head of a puppet in ningyou joururi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunraku).

6 能で扮装に用いる仮髪。前は顔までかかり、横は両肩に垂れ、後ろは背丈に及ぶ長いもの。黒頭・赤頭・白頭が あり、役によって使い分ける。
6 A (sort of) wig used to dress up for a role in noh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noh). A long one that hangs down over the face in front, falls onto both shoulders on the sides, and reaches to one's heels (one's full body height, the bottom of one's kimono) in back. There are kurogashira ("black kashira"), akagashira ("red kashira"), and shirogashira ("white kashira"), and each is used for distinct roles.

7 もつ焼きで、豚の頭部の肉。
7 In motsuyaki (grilling of organ meat as a sort of cuisine), the flesh of a head of pork.

[接尾]助数詞。
[suffix] A counter word/classifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word).

1 動物を数えるのに用いる。「鹿の一―にても殺す者あらば」〈宇治拾遺・七〉
1 Used for counting animals (such as deer).

2 仏像を数えるのに用いる。「(仏師ニ)幾―造り奉りたるぞと問へば」〈宇治拾遺・九〉
2 Used for counting Buddhist icons.

3 烏帽子 (えぼし) など頭にかぶるものを数えるのに用いる。「折らぬ烏帽子十―、直垂、大口などをぞ入れ たりける」〈義経記・七〉
3 Used for counting things that are worn on the head, such as eboshi (a sort of pointed hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointed_hat) worn by adult males of the nobility as everyday headgear or by commoners on certain festive occasions; there are various differences in the hats according to class, age, etc.).

4 人の上に立つ者、特に大名などを数えるのに用いる。「あれへ大名一―、瓜核 (うりざね) 顔の旦那殿、東 寺から出た人さうな」〈浄・丹波与作〉
4 Used for counting one who stands above other people, especially the likes of a daimyou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimyo).

sunny
10-11-2015, 06:07 PM
Afshar

''If I sum up all those sources it favours a Turkic origin, that is for sure''

What exactly is a Turkish origion? Central asian origion or Turkish racial origion? The modern day Turks are phenotypically a European central asian people (with admixtures). The Saka/Scynthians are said to be Turkish origion and they were a nordic looking (european type) central asian people. The Aryans (not the creators of the vedic civilization) are said to come from turkic lineage and they were a european people too. The Germanic tribes are a central asian european people. The Hepthalites as depicted on there coins are not a european people so in so far as they go racially it would be incorrect to label them turkish as it would imply a european people.

Afshar
10-11-2015, 09:15 PM
Afshar

''If I sum up all those sources it favours a Turkic origin, that is for sure''

What exactly is a Turkish origion? Central asian origion or Turkish racial origion? The modern day Turks are phenotypically a European central asian people (with admixtures). The Saka/Scynthians are said to be Turkish origion and they were a nordic looking (european type) central asian people. The Aryans (not the creators of the vedic civilization) are said to come from turkic lineage and they were a european people too. The Germanic tribes are a central asian european people. The Hepthalites as depicted on there coins are not a european people so in so far as they go racially it would be incorrect to label them turkish as it would imply a european people.

I do not know how original Turkic people looked like and I cant guess it, so it is difficult to compare to. As for the coins, I think human remains are better to use as reference. Anthropology is not my thing

sunny
10-12-2015, 01:37 PM
I do not know how original Turkic people looked like and I cant guess it, so it is difficult to compare to. As for the coins, I think human remains are better to use as reference. Anthropology is not my thing

Mine neither. The ancient Turks would have to have had phenotypic resemblance to modern day Turks for them to be identifiable as racially the same people. The Turks like many people are an amalmagation of various tribes some tribes ethnically unrelated to others but they are predominantly a European central asian people (with admixtures) so even if the Hepthalites were ancestors to the Turks it does not follow the Hepthalites were ''racially turkish'' and to refer to them as 'turkish' would be misleading unless 'turkish' is used as a social rather than racial identity. Yes skeletal remains would be a better reference but the coins can't be discounted because one would still have to still explain the difference in appearance if the skeletal remains identified as those of the hepthalites are different in appearance though I highly doubt that would the case. I think what is seen on the coins will reflect in the skeletal remains. Yes there geographical origion may be turkish/central asia but not there racial origion.

Afshar
10-12-2015, 02:03 PM
Its the ruling class/tribe, not the people, they were mostly local.

sunny
10-12-2015, 02:04 PM
Its the ruling class/tribe, not the people, they were mostly local.

Yes so the people could have been turkish, mixed with turkish etc.. had turkish customs/culture hence the hepthalite connection to the turkish or possibly the ruling class was mixed with turkish.

pegasus
10-15-2015, 03:05 AM
Yes so the people could have been turkish, mixed with turkish etc.. had turkish customs/culture hence the hepthalite connection to the turkish or possibly the ruling class was mixed with turkish.

By antiquity , groups of Eastern Scythians , Hepthalites were mixing or mixed with Proto Turks.

Afshar
11-08-2015, 07:49 PM
Today I came across a theory that the Khalaj people (sometimes associated with Gilzai pashtuns) are also supposedly descendants of the Hephtalites. Linguistically they fall under the Oghuz branch of Turkic languages. More mystery

DMXX
11-08-2015, 07:57 PM
Today I came across a theory that the Khalaj people (sometimes associated with Gilzai pashtuns) are also supposedly descendants of the Hephtalites. Linguistically they fall under the Oghuz branch of Turkic languages. More mystery

That would make some sense, as Xalaj (a Turkic language from Iran) isn't Oğuz (seems to have retained some early Turkic features), so it must have arrived at an earlier point than the Seljuks...

Would you mind sharing where you stumbled into this theory? Very interesting.

Afshar
11-08-2015, 08:06 PM
That would make some sense, as Xalaj (a Turkic language from Iran) isn't Oğuz (seems to have retained some early Turkic features), so it must have arrived at an earlier point than the Seljuks...

Would you mind sharing where you stumbled into this theory? Very interesting.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/Dybo_2007LingivistContactsOfEarlyTurksEn.htm
You are right, it clearly separates itself from western oghuz, but its still presented as a branch of oghuz.
As for the hephtalite theory, wiki states Zemarcos Syriac chronicle as a source, but its not on the web. If someone has some extra info about the source, share it! :)

Coldmountains
11-08-2015, 08:31 PM
pegasus

''I would say the Kushans made the most impact in the region , followed by Indo Scythians''

The Scynthian genetic impact is likely very small 1-2% if that even, or else you would find more Nordic type face shapes amongst south asians but there isn't. Unless there numbers were large a small tribe would unlikely have been able to make an impact on so many different groups (i.e Rajputs, Pathans, Ahirs, Gujjars, Baloches and Jats), especially in the case of invasion. In the case of migration it may be more possible but again that would limit the size of the genetic impact in these areas as opposed to a single genetic impact in one area of the region.

How do you know that South Central Asian Scythians, Kushan or Hephthalites were "Nordic"?. Scythians or other Central Asian Iranic nomads long after Andronovo and Sintashta were very mixed. They had some Uralic-like/Siberian-like admixture in the north/east and got some Caucasian/South Central Asian admixture in the south and let not forget that they also mixed with Afanasievo/Yamnaya-derived people of the steppe. North Iranics of the Black Sea region had likely some balkan-like admixture. Scythians in north central Asia, Siberia and Europe had surely a lot of "nordic" types but South Central Asian Iranics were generally more West Asian looking and according to anthropological studies South Central Asian Saka resembled modern Pamiri.

DMXX
11-08-2015, 08:52 PM
Coldmountains is right. Specificity in time period is useful for the discussion to be productive in any meaningful sense.

While it is true that both Andronovo and Afanasievo (Bronze Age) remains are described by anthropologists as having "robust proto-Europid" (a.k.a. "Nordic") morphologies, that isn't what the Iron Age Saka of the Pamirs looked like (as Coldmountains says, they are described instead as largely "Mediterranean" or "Indo-Afghan"). I mentioned this (among other multidisciplinary data) months ago when the idea of South-Central Asians being transplanted Andronovo populations was propagated here. It's a glaring discrepancy in the physical anthropology.

The seminal report for those interested. (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp051_xinjiang_skeletons.pdf)

sandeepchau123
11-23-2015, 12:22 PM
Central Asian's are Brachycephalic(broad headed) people not long headed whereas North-West Indians are mainly long headed. Huns, Scythian and Kushan's were from Central Asia.

ashwinb
11-23-2015, 06:30 PM
North-West Indians are mainly long headed
Not really..

pegasus
11-24-2015, 08:29 AM
Central Asian's are Brachycephalic(broad headed) people not long headed whereas North-West Indians are mainly long headed. Huns, Scythian and Kushan's were from Central Asia.

If you mean SC Asia, NOT at all. Irano-Afghans are typically long headed and leptomorphic, a phenotype commonly associated with Pashtuns. As well admixed Iranid/North Indid and occasional Irano-Nord/ Nordic strain can be found, both of which are long headed .

Those later Indo Iranian groups had this strange tradition of head binding.

bored
11-24-2015, 08:51 AM
If you mean SC Asia, NOT at all. Irano-Afghans are typically long headed and leptomorphic, a phenotype commonly associated with Pashtuns. As well admixed Iranid/North Indid and occasional Irano-Nord/ Nordic strain can be found, both of which are long headed .

Those later Indo Iranian groups had this strange tradition of head binding.

The term "South Central Asia" seems to be confined to anthropology circles. I'd never heard of it before. It's not used elsewhere. Does South Central Asia mean the southern part of Central Asia or does it refer to the transition zone between South Asia and Central Asia? It's a strange term. Afghanistan does not come to most people's mind when they think of Central Asia.

parasar
11-24-2015, 04:35 PM
The term "South Central Asia" seems to be confined to anthropology circles. I'd never heard of it before. It's not used elsewhere. Does South Central Asia mean the southern part of Central Asia or does it refer to the transition zone between South Asia and Central Asia? It's a strange term. Afghanistan does not come to most people's mind when they think of Central Asia.

The northern part of Afghanistan, north of the Hindu Kush, could be construed as part of Central Asia. But these terms are often loosely used.
For example this paper: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/3/661.full - puts South Asia in Central Asia.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/3/661/F3.large.jpg
The colored bar to the right indicates population group of origin: ASC: Asia, Central; ASE: Asia, East; BRI: British Isles; SCA: Scandinavia; ENW: Europe, North West; ESW: Europe, South West; ESC, Europe, South Central; ESE: Europe, South East; MNE: Middle and Near East; MEX: Mexico; AUS: Australia; AFP: Africa, food-producers; AHG: Africa, hunter-gatherers.

pegasus
11-24-2015, 04:36 PM
The term "South Central Asia" seems to be confined to anthropology circles. I'd never heard of it before. It's not used elsewhere. Does South Central Asia mean the southern part of Central Asia or does it refer to the transition zone between South Asia and Central Asia? It's a strange term. Afghanistan does not come to most people's mind when they think of Central Asia.

In terms of antiquity , Afghanistan and Central Asia proper were quite similar . That changed drastically with the collapse of the Khwarezemshah and the massive depopulation which occurred, followed by arrival of East Eurasian groups.
BMAC /Gonur Depe reconstructions
http://i50.tinypic.com/el9ybs.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/331j794.jpg
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/kim.png

You would not associate these kind of people with Central Asia today. You answered your own question its a transition zone.

parasar
11-24-2015, 05:42 PM
Coldmountains is right. Specificity in time period is useful for the discussion to be productive in any meaningful sense.

While it is true that both Andronovo and Afanasievo (Bronze Age) remains are described by anthropologists as having "robust proto-Europid" (a.k.a. "Nordic") morphologies, that isn't what the Iron Age Saka of the Pamirs looked like (as Coldmountains says, they are described instead as largely "Mediterranean" or "Indo-Afghan"). I mentioned this (among other multidisciplinary data) months ago when the idea of South-Central Asians being transplanted Andronovo populations was propagated here. It's a glaring discrepancy in the physical anthropology.
...

The Iron Age input (Shak) into South Asia was per Rahul Sankrytyayan very strong. He says that the Iron Age migrants, while similar to the Vedic ones, managed to put a mark on the Subcontinent and eclipsed the Vedic imprint.

Interestingly the eastern Iron Age samples on the Jones et al. PCA fall much more within the South Asian cluster than the Andronovans do.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/images/ncomms9912-f1.jpg

sunny
11-27-2015, 08:16 AM
How do you know that South Central Asian Scythians, Kushan or Hephthalites were "Nordic"?. Scythians or other Central Asian Iranic nomads long after Andronovo and Sintashta were very mixed. They had some Uralic-like/Siberian-like admixture in the north/east and got some Caucasian/South Central Asian admixture in the south and let not forget that they also mixed with Afanasievo/Yamnaya-derived people of the steppe. North Iranics of the Black Sea region had likely some balkan-like admixture. Scythians in north central Asia, Siberia and Europe had surely a lot of "nordic" types but South Central Asian Iranics were generally more West Asian looking and according to anthropological studies South Central Asian Saka resembled modern Pamiri.

Scynthians, did not mention anything about the others. Its whats I read on there skeletal remains. You might be right but same label, different people is confusing.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-27-2015, 08:31 AM
The Iron Age input (Shak) into South Asia was per Rahul Sankrytyayan very strong. He says that the Iron Age migrants, while similar to the Vedic ones, managed to put a mark on the Subcontinent and eclipsed the Vedic imprint.

Interestingly the eastern Iron Age samples on the Jones et al. PCA fall much more within the South Asian cluster than the Andronovans do.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/images/ncomms9912-f1.jpg

I think that's becuase several of the Iron Age samples were J2, suggesting a northward movement of "Scythians" (in the broad sense of the word).
One also noted that the Alan samples from late antiquity and Early Middle Ages were R1a-Z93 and J (IIRC).

In other words, for all proto-historic groups which we more or less have proof were some form of Indo-Aryan show links to south-central Asia.

sunny
11-28-2015, 12:48 PM
sandeepchau123 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?3180-sandeepchau123)

''Central Asian's are Brachycephalic(broad headed) people not long headed whereas North-West Indians are mainly long headed. ''

ashwinb (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?2539-ashwinb)

''Not really..''


Link?

sandeepchau123
11-29-2015, 09:56 AM
Not really..

Here I am referring to Jats, Rajput, Gujjars. please read anthropology book written by various Indian authors including Guha, Sarkar and Herbert Risley.

sunny
11-29-2015, 06:06 PM
Yes I think ''North-West Indians are MAINLY long headed''. However regards skull shape. Skull shape although very important alone cannot be used to determine ancestral/ethnic connections, just cos two different ethnic groups share or don't share the same skull shape that alone is not evidence of or not of an ancestral/ethnic connection. There are many many racial characteristics originating from all five senses (taste, smell, vision, hearing and touch) that pertain to ethnicity/race and that may differ vastly amongst different ethnic groups. Some that are more obvious (visible) than others (invisible). Some that cannot be determined so easily. Too much emphasis seems to be placed on placed skull shape.

Mingle
12-08-2015, 01:50 AM
Possible if not likely but we can say nothing definitely about that now. Hepthalites were most likely East Iranian speaking already before they adopted bactrian but which Iranian language nobody knows. The Durrani tribe of Pashtuns is linked to Hephtalites because their older tribal name Abdali seems to be derived from Hephtalite but tribal names can wander over long distances without any remarkable genetic inflow.

Abdali has no relation to the term Hepthalite. That's all just pseudo-science. Abdali is a name of direct Arabic origin. There are 0 successors to the Hepthalites. The only traces left of the Hepthalites are traces genetic input in various people that used to live in the area inhabited by Hepthalites. Its highly likely that the greatest concentration of Hephtalite genes are in modern day East Iranians (Pashtuns, Badakhshanis, Yaghnobis).

EDIT: Ignore the above, the theory of Abdalis being their successors is still possible. I had a misunderstanding.

jesus
12-08-2015, 01:56 AM
Abdali has no relation to the term Hepthalite. That's all just pseudo-science. Abdali is a name of direct Arabic origin. There are 0 successors to the Hepthalites. The only traces left of the Hepthalites are traces genetic input in various people that used to live in the area inhabited by Hepthalites. Its highly likely that the greatest concentration of Hephtalite genes are in modern day East Iranians (Pashtuns, Badakhshanis, Yaghnobis).

What does Abdali mean in Arabic ? as far as I know ابدالي has no meaning in Arabic, عبدلي does, but it's a different word.

paulgill
12-08-2015, 02:20 AM
Abdali has no relation to the term Hepthalite. That's all just pseudo-science. Abdali is a name of direct Arabic origin. There are 0 successors to the Hepthalites. The only traces left of the Hepthalites are traces genetic input in various people that used to live in the area inhabited by Hepthalites. Its highly likely that the greatest concentration of Hephtalite genes are in modern day East Iranians (Pashtuns, Badakhshanis, Yaghnobis).

They been also much further south, y lineage of Johal Jatts a prominent Jatt clan need to be looked into and if they are found to be related to the people from those places you mentioned then it may give us some leads.

Mingle
12-08-2015, 02:31 AM
What does Abdali mean in Arabic ? as far as I know ابدالي has no meaning in Arabic, عبدلي does, but it's a different word.

Its actually ابدالی‎, I just looked it up. I thought it was written with an ع the whole time, it might honestly be a derivative of Hepthalite. I'm still doubtful of the theory but it seems its not on Arabic origin like I originally thought it was.

Mingle
12-08-2015, 02:33 AM
They been also much further south, y lineage of Johal Jatts a prominent Jatt clan need to be looked into and if they are found to be related to the people from those places you mentioned then it may give us some leads.

They probably have a few drops of Hepthalite DNA but the largest concentration is most likely going to be among East Iranians since their lands were ruled by the Hepthalites for a much longer time and the Hepthalites are East Iranian themselves.

paulgill
12-08-2015, 02:39 AM
They probably have a few drops of Hepthalite DNA but the largest concentration is most likely going to be among East Iranians since their lands were ruled by the Hepthalites for a much longer time and the Hepthalites are East Iranian themselves.

Agreed to a certain extent, but the Hepthalites were very light skin people most likely from some much more north western area originally.

Coldmountains
12-08-2015, 07:11 AM
They probably have a few drops of Hepthalite DNA but the largest concentration is most likely going to be among East Iranians since their lands were ruled by the Hepthalites for a much longer time and the Hepthalites are East Iranian themselves.

Hephthalites were probably from Badakhshan so I expect them to be just like modern Badakhshani. Hephthalites, Saka of Tajikistan/Afghanistan and Kushan were probably very south central Asian genetically but more northern shifted. The genetic impact of them in Afghanistan and Tajikistan is hard to guess it could be close to zero or huge. At least in Tajikistan and North Afghanistan they had certain a genetic impact. Many Saka settled also in Arachosia/Kandahar and because of this the entire region was later named Sakastan . I don't think that Hephthalites or Kushan had a significant genetic impact in India and Hephthalites were defeated and pushed out of India by local rulers. I would say the later a invasion happened in South Asia or Central Asia the smaller was the genetic impact of it (I am only talking about migrations of Indo-Iranians) but we have no ancient DNA from this region so I could be of course wrong in the end

pegasus
01-15-2016, 04:17 AM
Hephthalites were probably from Badakhshan so I expect them to be just like modern Badakhshani. Hephthalites, Saka of Tajikistan/Afghanistan and Kushan were probably very south central Asian genetically but more northern shifted. The genetic impact of them in Afghanistan and Tajikistan is hard to guess it could be close to zero or huge. At least in Tajikistan and North Afghanistan they had certain a genetic impact. Many Saka settled also in Arachosia/Kandahar and because of this the entire region was later named Sakastan . I don't think that Hephthalites or Kushan had a significant genetic impact in India and Hephthalites were defeated and pushed out of India by local rulers. I would say the later a invasion happened in South Asia or Central Asia the smaller was the genetic impact of it (I am only talking about migrations of Indo-Iranians) but we have no ancient DNA from this region so I could be of course wrong in the end

Yes that is in line with descriptions from Chinese writers of the time. Their origins are shrouded in mystery, some say they are Eastern Iranian, others Proto Turks, and some say Tocharian.
Though its established they spoke Bactrian ( East Iranian language). Kushans had the biggest historical impact overall mainly because of "Kanishka the Great". You will still find Afghan guys with the name Kanishka. Surprisingly 2 people I know from Nejrab in Kapisa have that name. Whats interesting is that Kapisa was one of the capitals under King Kanishka.

DMXX
01-15-2016, 07:58 AM
Though its established they spoke Bactrian ( East Iranian language). Kushans had the biggest historical impact overall mainly because of "Kanishka the Great". You will still find Afghan guys with the name Kanishka. Surprisingly 2 people I know from Nejrab in Kapisa have that name. Whats interesting is that Kapisa was one of the capitals under King Kanishka.

I'm not entirely sure that (persistence of notable historical names) can be cited as evidence in favour of a substantial Kushan input among modern Afghans.

Much the same way Alexander's name persists in some parts of Iran (Iskandar) or the Parthian founding dynasty's name surviving in Armenia (Ashkanian). The Seleucid and Parthian empires are not (as far as we know) associated with any substantial Greek or NE Iranian input into Iran and Armenia respectively. Doesn't necessarily mean the Afghan-Kushan scenario as a whole must be analogous - Just appraising this information for what it is worth.

Nonetheless, it is quite interesting to learn Afghans have retained the memory of Kanishka.

pegasus
01-15-2016, 08:41 AM
I'm not entirely sure that (persistence of notable historical names) can be cited as evidence in favour of a substantial Kushan input among modern Afghans.

Much the same way Alexander's name persists in some parts of Iran (Iskandar) or the Parthian founding dynasty's name surviving in Armenia (Ashkanian). The Seleucid and Parthian empires are not (as far as we know) associated with any substantial Greek or NE Iranian input into Iran and Armenia respectively. Doesn't necessarily mean the Afghan-Kushan scenario as a whole must be analogous - Just appraising this information for what it is worth.

Nonetheless, it is quite interesting to learn Afghans have retained the memory of Kanishka.

I meant significance , :) , in terms of being well known. The Kushans themselves were patrons of Buddhism, hence very Indianized.
Yes Alexander exists in the name form Sikander, that too has survived the test of time.

parasar
01-15-2016, 07:12 PM
I'm not entirely sure that (persistence of notable historical names) can be cited as evidence in favour of a substantial Kushan input among modern Afghans.

Much the same way Alexander's name persists in some parts of Iran (Iskandar) or the Parthian founding dynasty's name surviving in Armenia (Ashkanian). The Seleucid and Parthian empires are not (as far as we know) associated with any substantial Greek or NE Iranian input into Iran and Armenia respectively. Doesn't necessarily mean the Afghan-Kushan scenario as a whole must be analogous - Just appraising this information for what it is worth.

Nonetheless, it is quite interesting to learn Afghans have retained the memory of Kanishka.

It is almost certainly revived by modern history, much like the name Ashok in India. Ashok was hardly a common name, but with the new recognition the Mauryan empire, in particular Asoka, received, it became a relatively common modern name.

Asoka hardly ever used this name on his own inscriptions.

parasar
01-15-2016, 07:18 PM
.... repeat post

parasar
01-15-2016, 08:22 PM
I'm not entirely sure that (persistence of notable historical names) can be cited as evidence in favour of a substantial Kushan input among modern Afghans.

Much the same way Alexander's name persists in some parts of Iran (Iskandar) or the Parthian founding dynasty's name surviving in Armenia (Ashkanian). The Seleucid and Parthian empires are not (as far as we know) associated with any substantial Greek or NE Iranian input into Iran and Armenia respectively. Doesn't necessarily mean the Afghan-Kushan scenario as a whole must be analogous - Just appraising this information for what it is worth.

Nonetheless, it is quite interesting to learn Afghans have retained the memory of Kanishka.

It is almost certainly revived by modern history, much like the name Ashok in India. Ashok was hardly a common name, but with the new recognition the Mauryan empire, in particular Asoka, received, it became a relatively common modern name.

Asoka hardly ever used this name on his own inscriptions.

The Ashkanians have a strong connection to Armenia, and I have mentioned the name most likely is a remnant from the Aramiac equivalent of Asoka.

Themaster
02-02-2016, 04:47 AM
They been also much further south, y lineage of Johal Jatts a prominent Jatt clan need to be looked into and if they are found to be related to the people from those places you mentioned then it may give us some leads.

Do they claim Hephtalite ancestry ?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-02-2016, 04:53 AM
Do they claim Hephtalite ancestry ?

All jatts claim saka/hephtalite ancestry.

Themaster
02-02-2016, 04:59 AM
All jatts claim saka/hephtalite ancestry.

I thought it was only the Scythian claim though and not hepthatlite(White Hun) ?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-02-2016, 06:38 AM
I thought it was only the Scythian claim though and not hepthatlite(White Hun) ?

Jatland wiki has listed jatt tribes that claim hepthatlite origin.


https://www.jatland.com/home/Ephthalites

Themaster
02-02-2016, 07:23 AM
Jatland wiki has listed jatt tribes that claim hepthatlite origin.


https://www.jatland.com/home/Ephthalites
cool, thanks for that.

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 02:41 AM
Jatland wiki has listed jatt tribes that claim hepthatlite origin.


https://www.jatland.com/home/Ephthalites

are you a Punjabi jatt?

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 02:48 AM
I absolutely agree it is also possible that Hephthalites were just the same like modern South Central Asians with a slightly Siberian touch so I think we can hardly distinguish them from modern populations and it is very hard if not impossible to separate Hephthalite legacy among South Central Asians from older native South Central Asian dna


Does this make some sense?


Completely agree. By the time the Hephthalites are attested (in the "late" ancient/"early" Medieval period), movements to East-Central Asia and the Pamirs had long since been established. Also worth mentioning they were a confederacy. Perhaps the individuals among them were a mix of predominantly steppe (i.e. Andronovo-like) and South-Central Asian with additional Siberian. It's anyone's guess what they looked like genetically. At least we have some guided ideas bounced around here.


I read a theory a long time ago, from somewhere I can't recall and that I can't quote from memory (as usual) that: Old Sindh populus + Seva Huna or Hephtalite = Rajput or Gujjar or Jatt -- or something of that accord. Meaning pre-Jatt northward migrations occurred and interacted with the Seva Huna etc to form these populations?

I might have stated the theory incorrectly, mixed things up, but I think you know what I am referring to.


Jatts having scythian admixture makes way more sense than them coming from sindh. Their genetics don't match that of any sindhi populations


Jatland wiki has listed jatt tribes that claim hepthatlite origin.


https://www.jatland.com/home/Ephthalites


I am a Punjabi Jatt with Y DNA Haplogroup J-CTS2906 and National Geno2.0 Categorized me as Central Asian with Closest Matching Populations as under :


7754


7755

I think this can give a hint that Jatts are descendants of Huns as the huns were also central Asians. What do you guys say?

Afshar
02-14-2016, 09:41 AM
Did you upload to GEDmatch?

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 01:55 PM
Did you upload to GEDmatch?

Can you please give me the link to this GEDmatch? is it free?

Helgenes50
02-14-2016, 02:03 PM
Can you please give me the link to this GEDmatch? is it free?

GEDmatch is free

https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php

Afshar
02-14-2016, 02:04 PM
Can you please give me the link to this GEDmatch? is it free?

http://v2.gedmatch.com/login1.php

Yes its free.
Takes a bit time to upload your raw data

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 02:06 PM
Did you upload to GEDmatch?
Hi Afshar,

Request for some guidance please, I went to GEDmatch and it says that :
Note: FTDNA customers must upload both autosomal and X-DNA raw data files before they will be processed.

I Only have the Y Haplotrees and SNPs which are as under : ( also available as CSV excel file) . What should I do now?

A531+, A91+, BY1142+, BY1357+, BY136_FGC19909_Z18229+, BY1551+, BY1585+, BY1734+, BY20+, BY2510+, BY65_Z18181+, BY763+, BY876+, CTS10031+, CTS10147+, CTS10188+, CTS10229+, CTS103+, CTS10300+, CTS10428+, CTS10433+, CTS10448+, CTS10552+, CTS10572+, CTS10615+, CTS10648+, CTS1066+, CTS10723+, CTS10745+, CTS10761+, CTS10821+, CTS10847+, CTS11012+, CTS11041+, CTS11071+, CTS11088+, CTS11126+, CTS11148+, CTS11190+, CTS11261+, CTS11354+, CTS114+, CTS1141+, CTS11436+, CTS11441+, CTS1148+, CTS11503+, CTS11530+, CTS1164+, CTS11651+, CTS1171+, CTS11710+, CTS11731+, CTS11759+, CTS11816+, CTS11907+, CTS11949+, CTS11970+, CTS12023+, CTS12058+, CTS1216+, CTS12449+, CTS12450+, CTS12578+, CTS1276+, CTS12856+, CTS12933+, CTS12934+, CTS12948+, CTS12950+, CTS12976+, CTS1340+, CTS1353+, CTS1413+, CTS1436+, CTS1633+, CTS1710+, CTS1758+, CTS1806+, CTS191+, CTS202+, CTS2067+, CTS210+, CTS2105+, CTS2134+, CTS2230+, CTS2275+, CTS2284+, CTS2289+, CTS2413+, CTS2488+, CTS2515+, CTS2670+, CTS278+, CTS2800+, CTS2848+, 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L99+, M102+, M116+, M129+, M139+, M171+, M251+, M262+, M275+, M288+, M367+, M39+, M69+, M89+, M94+, M9574+, M9588+, MC14+, N4+, P102+, P108+, P117+, P118+, P129+, P135+, P136+, P141+, P145+, P148+, P151+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P181+, P194+, P202+, P268+, P269+, P289+, P305+, P40+, P52+, P59+, P77+, P80+, P84+, P91+, PAGES00010+, PAGES00048+, PAGES00049+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00101+, PAGES00105+, PF1015+, PF1026+, PF1031+, PF1085+, PF1097+, PF1141+, PF1147+, PF1152+, PF1164+, PF1169+, PF121+, PF1226+, PF1232+, PF1252+, PF1269+, PF1270+, PF1279+, PF1283+, PF133+, PF1368+, PF147+, PF156+, PF1562+, PF1577+, PF1587+, PF22+, PF228+, PF2334+, PF2436+, PF2438+, PF2466+, PF2481+, PF2495+, PF2579+, PF2593+, PF2611+, PF2624+, PF2635+, PF2643+, PF276+, PF288+, PF293+, PF302+, PF3051+, PF3086+, PF3107+, PF3188+, PF3220+, PF3248+, PF328+, PF3298+, PF331+, PF3320+, PF3561+, PF3823+, PF3890+, PF3964+, PF3986+, PF40+, PF4105+, PF4193+, PF4246+, PF4533+, PF4573+, PF4576+, PF4589+, PF4592+, PF4647+, PF4653+, 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Y1083+, Y1113+, Y1122+, Y32+, Y4864_Z16422+, Y5272+, Y5305_Z16500+, Y5759_Z16420+, Y6181+, Y763+, YP321+, YSC0000081+, YSC0000150+, YSC0000216+, YSC0000292+, YSC0001071+, Z11180+, Z1149+, Z130+, Z133+, Z138+, Z14303+, Z1456+, Z1476+, Z148+, Z1483+, Z1504+, Z1518+, Z1589+, Z1593+, Z1616+, Z18133+, Z18140+, Z1817+, Z18186+, Z1835+, Z187+, Z189+, Z1975+, Z2069+, Z2082+, Z2094+, Z213+, Z2396+, Z269+, Z270+, Z274+, Z2970+, Z2976+, Z2983+, Z30+, Z315+, Z319+, Z347+, Z350+, Z3723+, Z39+, Z477+, Z515+, Z531+, Z544+, Z60+, Z625+, Z638+, Z72+, Z75+, Z767+, Z966+, ZS1727+, ZS251+

Kaido
02-14-2016, 02:07 PM
I think you'll need to transfer your results to FTDNA and then download your raw data from there as I don't think you can upload Geno 2.0 files to Gedmatch.

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 02:15 PM
I think you'll need to transfer your results to FTDNA and then download your raw data from there as I don't think you can upload Geno 2.0 files to Gedmatch.

Hi Kaido, I do have the FTDNA file saved as CSV excel file. But when I tried to upload it to autosomonal file upload , I got this error message below :

Autosomal DNA data upload

Filename: N164347_SNPs_20160213.csv

FTDNA Kit Number: N164347

Your kit number has had the letter 'F' added to the front (FN164347) to identify it as an FTDNA Illumina file.

Your Autosomal DNA data file has been successfully received. Processing milestones are listed below. This will take several minutes. If you leave this page before it is finished, your data may be lost. Please be patient.

Size: 31283 Bytes

Processing file...

Please do not navigate away from this page until all chromosomes have been processed. Chromosome numbers will be displayed below in green as they are processed. After that, please wait for Build 36 / Build 37 alignment to finish.

(531) ERROR: Line segmentation count = 5
Each line of data must consist of exactly 4 values:

Your Data: a531 true genographic 2+ transfer

This error is usually caused by attempting to upload the incorrect file. If that is the cause, you probably received a warning earlier on this page about the file name. Make sure you are uploading the correct file, as it was downloaded from FTDNA.

If you continue to have problems with this, please contact the GEDmatch site administrator.

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 02:18 PM
GEDmatch is free

https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php

Thanks Helgenes, but it requires your X DNA raw file too, I Only have the Y DNA raw file.

Kaido
02-14-2016, 02:21 PM
Hi Kaido, I do have the FTDNA file saved as CSV excel file. But when I tried to upload it to autosomonal file upload , I got this error message below :

Autosomal DNA data upload

Filename: N164347_SNPs_20160213.csv

FTDNA Kit Number: N164347

Your kit number has had the letter 'F' added to the front (FN164347) to identify it as an FTDNA Illumina file.

Your Autosomal DNA data file has been successfully received. Processing milestones are listed below. This will take several minutes. If you leave this page before it is finished, your data may be lost. Please be patient.

Size: 31283 Bytes

Processing file...

Please do not navigate away from this page until all chromosomes have been processed. Chromosome numbers will be displayed below in green as they are processed. After that, please wait for Build 36 / Build 37 alignment to finish.

(531) ERROR: Line segmentation count = 5
Each line of data must consist of exactly 4 values:

Your Data: a531 true genographic 2+ transfer

This error is usually caused by attempting to upload the incorrect file. If that is the cause, you probably received a warning earlier on this page about the file name. Make sure you are uploading the correct file, as it was downloaded from FTDNA.

If you continue to have problems with this, please contact the GEDmatch site administrator.


https://i.gyazo.com/83e051b635afcb4cd6c62fec07ebb56b.png
click this tab on your FTDNA dashboard and then download Build 37 Autosomal data and the one below it Build 37 X Chromosome data and upload them both to gedmatch.

Afshar
02-14-2016, 03:01 PM
I think you cannot transfer autosomal to ftdna.
So unfortunately you should buy the ff test then

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 03:05 PM
https://i.gyazo.com/83e051b635afcb4cd6c62fec07ebb56b.png
click this tab on your FTDNA dashboard and then download Build 37 Autosomal data and the one below it Build 37 X Chromosome data and upload them both to gedmatch.

Hi Kaido...,

My Dashboard looks a little different from yours because I was originally on National Geographic Geno 2.0 and then did the free transfer to familitreeDNA.
This is how my dashboard looks :


7760

7761

Kaido
02-14-2016, 03:38 PM
Hi Kaido...,

My Dashboard looks a little different from yours because I was originally on National Geographic Geno 2.0 and then did the free transfer to familitreeDNA.
This is how my dashboard looks :


7760

7761

Ahh I see, yeah like Afshar said above you'll need to purchase a separate test in order to use gedmatch. It looks like in your first screenshot that it's on offer for $39, i'd go for it.

Sapporo
02-14-2016, 10:51 PM
I am a Punjabi Jatt with Y DNA Haplogroup J-CTS2906 and National Geno2.0 Categorized me as Central Asian with Closest Matching Populations as under :


7754


7755

I think this can give a hint that Jatts are descendants of Huns as the huns were also central Asians. What do you guys say?

These are cool results. I guess National Geno. 2.0 changed their autosomal ancestry breakdown. Paul Gill, McNinja and Kaido did this test and have very different ancestral breakdowns. Or am I mistaken and those your familytreedna results?

Are you Pakistani Muslim Punjabi Jatt? Just curious as you list your surname as Sidhu but have the Pakistan flag so I'm guessing you are not Indian Punjabi Jatt Sikh.

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 11:03 PM
These are cool results. I guess National Geno. 2.0 changed their autosomal ancestry breakdown. Paul Gill, McNinja and Kaido did this test and have very different ancestral breakdowns. Or am I mistaken and those your familytreedna results?

Are you Pakistani Muslim Punjabi Jatt? Just curious as you list your surname as Sidhu but have the Pakistan flag so I'm guessing you are not Indian Punjabi Jatt Sikh.

These are Nat Geo results!
I am a Pakistani Muslim Jatt and our clan is Sidhu. Paul Gill and McNinja and Kaidoo are they jatts too? Please note that Jatts have various sub castes and not to mention that the genetics of Sub continent are very complex..we have different admixtures !. Are you a Punjabi too?

Sapporo
02-14-2016, 11:20 PM
These are Nat Geo results!
I am a Pakistani Muslim Jatt and our clan is Sidhu. Paul Gill and McNinja and Kaidoo are they jatts too? Please note that Jatts have various sub castes and not to mention that the genetics of Sub continent are very complex..we have different admixtures !. Are you a Punjabi too?

Aww, okay. It would seem that National Geno 2.0 has changed their ancestral breakdown. PGill is Indian Punjabi Jatt Sikh and McNinja is Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Jatt. Kaido is Pakistani Pashtun. Yes, I am Punjabi Jatt Sikh like PGill.

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 11:34 PM
Aww, okay. It would seem that National Geno 2.0 has changed their ancestral breakdown. PGill is Indian Punjabi Jatt Sikh and McNinja is Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Jatt. Kaido is Pakistani Pashtun. Yes, I am Punjabi Jatt Sikh like PGill.

Good to know that you are a jatt too. Your input on the Hunnic origin of Punjabi jatts ?

My case in support of the hunnic origin of jatts is as follows : Since my break down comes out to be 49 percent central Asian and my first reference population is Altaic and second is Tajik, this appears to be a very solid proof. Furthermore ...the looks also tell the story somewhat let me put some of our paternal side photos :

Myself in the Pic Below :

https://unsee.cc/rugozibe/


Father Below :
[
Paternal Cousin Below :

khanabadoshi
02-15-2016, 12:05 AM
Aww, okay. It would seem that National Geno 2.0 has changed their ancestral breakdown. PGill is Indian Punjabi Jatt Sikh and McNinja is Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Jatt. Kaido is Pakistani Pashtun. Yes, I am Punjabi Jatt Sikh like PGill.

Mines is still with the original breakdown?

https://i.gyazo.com/e6336bb0fa2dc517867ff473758ee44f.png

jatt2016
02-15-2016, 12:27 AM
[QUOTE=khanabadoshi;140690]Mines is still with the original breakdown?

[QUOTE]

Very interesting an R YDNA is predominately found in Aryans and Indo Aryans !

My first and second reference populations are as under :

[IMG]http://s9.postimg.org/y5hu1vr4t/Capt1ure.jpg

jatt2016
02-15-2016, 12:32 AM
Mines is still with the original breakdown?


NAT GEO has also updated the Reference populations now :

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/

Kurd
02-15-2016, 01:23 AM
Interesting to see that:

1- They have the Iranian reference at 24% S Asian and 4% E African, and only 4% C Asian and 6% Asia Minor.
2- Pamiri Tajiks are only 3% S Asian, and 11% Asia Minor

I wonder if they will tell me how they base their calculations; allele frequencies, haplotype matching or something else

Mellifluous
02-15-2016, 02:57 AM
I'm not entirely sure that (persistence of notable historical names) can be cited as evidence in favour of a substantial Kushan input among modern Afghans.

Much the same way Alexander's name persists in some parts of Iran (Iskandar) or the Parthian founding dynasty's name surviving in Armenia (Ashkanian). The Seleucid and Parthian empires are not (as far as we know) associated with any substantial Greek or NE Iranian input into Iran and Armenia respectively. Doesn't necessarily mean the Afghan-Kushan scenario as a whole must be analogous - Just appraising this information for what it is worth.

Nonetheless, it is quite interesting to learn Afghans have retained the memory of Kanishka.

I used to call my cousin Kanishka in order to make her angry because she hates how the name sounds.

BMG
02-15-2016, 03:00 AM
I Think Geno 2.0 next gen has messed it up . Two keralite samples have 53% southern Asia 37% central Asia and 52% southern Asia 41% central Asia . But the south Indian reference population shows 87% southern asia and 4% central Asia . Even the northern Indian shows 78% southern Asia and 10% central Asia .
This discrepancy is resulting in wierd selection of reference populations by Geno next gen

jatt2016
02-15-2016, 03:26 AM
I Think Geno 2.0 next gen has messed it up . Two keralite samples have 53% southern Asia 37% central Asia and 52% southern Asia 41% central Asia . But the south Indian reference population shows 87% southern asia and 4% central Asia . Even the northern Indian shows 78% southern Asia and 10% central Asia .
This discrepancy is resulting in wierd selection of reference populations by Geno next gen
Can you paste the screenshots so that we can see it?

Kurd
02-15-2016, 01:24 PM
I Think Geno 2.0 next gen has messed it up . Two keralite samples have 53% southern Asia 37% central Asia and 52% southern Asia 41% central Asia . But the south Indian reference population shows 87% southern asia and 4% central Asia . Even the northern Indian shows 78% southern Asia and 10% central Asia .
This discrepancy is resulting in wierd selection of reference populations by Geno next gen

I suppose if you go back in time and ignore recent drift, then it is possible to have that much intra-Keralite variation. I'll contact them and see what their methodology is. The 2 samples you refer to are they self reported, or do you know them to be Keralites?

Kurd
02-16-2016, 12:09 AM
Interesting to see that:

1- They have the Iranian reference at 24% S Asian and 4% E African, and only 4% C Asian and 6% Asia Minor.
2- Pamiri Tajiks are only 3% S Asian, and 11% Asia Minor

I wonder if they will tell me how they base their calculations; allele frequencies, haplotype matching or something else


I spoke with someone today. They said they could not give me the details of their methodology as it was "proprietary". They emphasized that they were not genealogically oriented like some other companies, but rather anthropologically oriented, which indicates to me that they neutralize recent drift.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-16-2016, 12:41 AM
are you a Punjabi jatt?

Nope, I am punjabi Sikh Tarkhan (Ramgarhia).

Xuipa
02-16-2016, 04:40 PM
FYI .. the word Taank is probably Tanac and also from the king by the name of "Tana" or "Etana" ("the shepherd, who ascended to heaven and consolidated all the foreign countries") where they get the word Tamnhu from in North Africa and Tamali /Tamaulipas in the America's just to name a few . it is probably what they all call now a " Hittite" word in origin it can be with a M or an N or a MN .. and still be the same clan of men/ powers and authority . and yes for good reason Caana and Mizraim hate Etana/ Tana / Tama for a reason. You can find the clan and world wide trading network by careful analyzing of the Sumerian kings list.
Tana united the city states after many awful kings stole and usurped the kingdoms networks of the trading and sea peoples confederations . Usurping all their leadership for ages and taking, stealing and demanding tributes . stealing whole kingdoms by control of the Monarchies . I have no idea if Tana was really better then Menes but I know he can't be as great as the Great Kings seen in Narmer's pallet . the Menes Palette which reveals the betrayal and shows how Egyptian ( Mizraim and Caananite) usurping of sea peoples kingdoms. and why there was a ages of Wars over places like troy by men like Menelaus . Menes( mn) was a Menace to all mankind and if God had not raised up Israel in Egypt and with that walked out with what Egypt stole in the first place , we would all still be paying tributes to Egypt and probably speaking Egyptian and worshipping animals and creation. Opps oh yes, it seems that part never died and we still are worshipping creation and the promises or the Oaths and promises that God gave the great kings who were righteous . Men like to worship the promises with out worshipping the Creator and the one who will fulfill those promises .

FYI for anyone of Indian descent looking for real history. some of your history is on Narmer's Palette and in the Sumerians kings Lists = with the true history of some of the grandsons and great grandsons of Noah. ( if you also carefully study the mayans kings list ( " again calender which again they demand it creates time ) non of those things are about time. Old liberal farts with magic time wands created time when they have none and need it or just want it to
"prove" everyone else in all history is a liar .

Ps... the Sumerians kings list "Sars" is not time but that word means the same as Czars.. thus each" head king" or " kingdom" had world wide trading confederacies of ( ? sars) Just FYI . and this also is where you get the Indian peoples matrilineal /( not really matriarchal I don't think ) history from and connections . just FYI

Afshar
02-16-2016, 06:37 PM
Yes I agree

jatt2016
08-06-2016, 02:41 AM
Did you upload to GEDmatch?

Uploaded and results pasted below :

https://i.gyazo.com/e5fddedcd9aa3b910e1adecfd4648518.png

Afshar
10-10-2016, 08:15 PM
Regarding my y-hg, there is a New Q1a1b1 in the simons Genome project who is a kashmiri pandit. So now there is a punjabi from lahore (Yfull) a Malik from India and this guy who probably belong to the same cluster. I dont know much about the regions ethnography but it seems there is no ethnic connection between these guys. Could these be remnants of hephtalites or is that too hard to say.

Sapporo
10-12-2016, 01:14 AM
Uploaded and results pasted below :

https://i.gyazo.com/e5fddedcd9aa3b910e1adecfd4648518.png

Posting my results as a comparison:

Population
South_Central_Asian 44.43
South_Asian 30.26
North_Caucasian 12.74
Eastern_Euro 4.11
North_Sea 2.51
East_Central_Euro 1.97
Fennoscandian 1.07
Armenian 0.97
Volga-Ural 0.92
East_Balkan 0.50
Amerindian 0.38
West_Caucasian 0.13
Arabian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Med -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Chinese -
West_African -
West_Med -

Afshar
10-29-2016, 08:55 AM
Regarding my y-hg, there is a New Q1a1b1 in the simons Genome project who is a kashmiri pandit. So now there is a punjabi from lahore (Yfull) a Malik from India and this guy who probably belong to the same cluster. I dont know much about the regions ethnography but it seems there is no ethnic connection between these guys. Could these be remnants of hephtalites or is that too hard to say.

I was mistaken in the memon guy, it was a MENON guy, who appears to be from a different background and Nair caste. Can someone give some background info about thr menoNs.

dp
12-02-2016, 10:48 PM
[moved post to Autosomal forum]

Kulin
03-13-2017, 03:40 AM
I've heard Jatts claim Saka/Huna origin, which kinda' goes with the fact how they weren't so highly rated according to Hindu varna, and groups like Rajputs had always seen Jatts as lowly and there was quite a bit of rivalry during the colonial period. The Rajputs didn't quite accept when the British classified them as "Indo-Scythians". Given their DNA, they resemble high caste groups, and have a gotra system like all higher castes, I wouldn't be surprised if their origin is tied to the nomadic hunas/sakas of course rather than Vedic Indo-Aryans.

I've also heard claims of Rajputs + Gujjars being of huna origin, as the original kshatriya race was supposedly 'eliminated' by Parshuram, though I've also heard that original kshatriyas survived in the form of khatris who took to trade instead of their original occupation. I don't know how true this theory even is though. But, Rajputs still claim their lineage to the 3/4 Royal dynasties, and so I think the Rajput one is dubious. Gujjars on the other hand still show a lot of similarities to hunas like how both of them are nomads, although Gujjar dynasties such as the ruling one in the "Gurajara-Pratihara" kingdom had espoused themselves as the Kings of Aryavarta, so gujjar huna connections may be sort of unreliable as well.


Of course, there's still some possibility for any of these, since we know, Mleccha races such as those of the Kambojas were assimilited into the Vedic hierarchy, with their modern descendants being the Kamboj/Kamboh community in Northern South Asia.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-13-2017, 08:12 PM
I've heard Jatts claim Saka/Huna origin, which kinda' goes with the fact how they weren't so highly rated according to Hindu varna, and groups like Rajputs had always seen Jatts as lowly and there was quite a bit of rivalry during the colonial period. The Rajputs didn't quite accept when the British classified them as "Indo-Scythians". Given their DNA, they resemble high caste groups, and have a gotra system like all higher castes, I wouldn't be surprised if their origin is tied to the nomadic hunas/sakas of course rather than Vedic Indo-Aryans.

I've also heard claims of Rajputs + Gujjars being of huna origin, as the original kshatriya race was supposedly 'eliminated' by Parshuram, though I've also heard that original kshatriyas survived in the form of khatris who took to trade instead of their original occupation. I don't know how true this theory even is though. But, Rajputs still claim their lineage to the 3/4 Royal dynasties, and so I think the Rajput one is dubious. Gujjars on the other hand still show a lot of similarities to hunas like how both of them are nomads, although Gujjar dynasties such as the ruling one in the "Gurajara-Pratihara" kingdom had espoused themselves as the Kings of Aryavarta, so gujjar huna connections may be sort of unreliable as well.


Of course, there's still some possibility for any of these, since we know, Mleccha races such as those of the Kambojas were assimilited into the Vedic hierarchy, with their modern descendants being the Kamboj/Kamboh community in Northern South Asia.

You should check out the 500k comparison Kurd did with south asians and scythians.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6502-500K-SNP-Member-IBS-Comparisons
The genetics speak the best about history :)

Squall Leonhart
03-16-2017, 04:08 PM
Are Rajputs known to be descended from the Hephthalites/White Huns?

Ashokharsana
11-17-2017, 12:24 AM
There is only Gurjar/Gujjar community in India that has "Hoon" as a surname. There are around 36 villages of Hoon Gujjars near Meerut in Uttar Pradesh State. None of the other community has this surname.

Though there are many castes that claim Hoon legacy but this example is by far the most attested and valid.
Regards

Ashokharsana
11-17-2017, 07:37 AM
A search on facebook for the term "hoon" yields the results with people only from Gujjar community. You see its very easy to show mirror to the people who have been moonlighting by ascribing others' legendery past to themselves

MonkeyDLuffy
11-17-2017, 12:02 PM
I won’t take the surname seriously, we’ve saka surname only found in my community, doesn’t mean they’re saka scythians related.

volk_zargos
11-17-2017, 02:53 PM
I was mistaken in the memon guy, it was a MENON guy, who appears to be from a different background and Nair caste. Can someone give some background info about thr menoNs.
Recorded History
Nair is a caste in the state of Kerala. They up until 1809AD, served as elite soldiers (simultaneously as landowners) for the various kings of Kerala. Almost all of the kings of Kerala(after circa. 1500), are in someway related to Nairs. There were also a part of them, employed as bureaucrats and domestic servants. Menon is historically a sub-class of the nairs. Menons were mostly landowners and bureaucrats. They were concentrated mainly in Northern Kerala up until 1780AD.
Origins
They were formed after circa. 980 AD, as a by product of the Namboothiri Migration(Brahmin) to Kerala. At least some part of them, migrated to Kerala along with the Namboothiris. The rest were made up by assimilation of the then elite of Kerala.
Genetics
The maternal line of the Nairs is predominantly ASI (to be confirmed). But the paternal line is predominantly ANI, this is due to vigorous intermarriage practices with Namboothiris up until 1940 AD.
Y-DNA(that I am aware of, unconfirmed)
R1a, R2, J2, L-M20.

Hephtalite legacy
No recorded material, that I am aware of. But K12 Ancient Origins gave a result of 25 % Steppee Ancestry for me and 34 % to bmoney.
I cannot differentiate the East Eurassian element in K12 Ancient Origins, which I persume might point to at least some Hephtalite ancestry.
But then again since no concrete Y-DNA, Autosomal component is attached to Hephtalite till date, one can only conjecture.

parasar
11-17-2017, 03:31 PM
I won’t take the surname seriously, we’ve saka surname only found in my community, doesn’t mean they’re saka scythians related.

It is not really a surname anymore - most hoons have modern surnames such as singh, etc. Their vansh is hoon - i.e. of hoon lineage.

As Ashokharsana mentioned Gurjjar areas had hoon lines.

Hoons were considered a people from Tibet (Hoon des) but after living over thousand years in interior India they don't look Tibetan.

Afshar
11-17-2017, 03:41 PM
Recorded History
Nair is a caste in the state of Kerala. They up until 1809AD, served as elite soldiers (simultaneously as landowners) for the various kings of Kerala. Almost all of the kings of Kerala(after circa. 1500), are in someway related to Nairs. There were also a part of them, employed as bureaucrats and domestic servants. Menon is historically a sub-class of the nairs. Menons were mostly landowners and bureaucrats. They were concentrated mainly in Northern Kerala up until 1780AD.
Origins
They were formed after circa. 980 AD, as a by product of the Namboothiri Migration(Brahmin) to Kerala. At least some part of them, migrated to Kerala along with the Namboothiris. The rest were made up by assimilation of the then elite of Kerala.
Genetics
The maternal line of the Nairs is predominantly ASI (to be confirmed). But the paternal line is predominantly ANI, this is due to vigorous intermarriage practices with Namboothiris up until 1940 AD.
Y-DNA(that I am aware of, unconfirmed)
R1a, R2, J2, L-M20.

Hephtalite legacy
No recorded material, that I am aware of. But K12 Ancient Origins gave a result of 25 % Steppee Ancestry for me and 34 % to bmoney.
I cannot differentiate the East Eurassian element in K12 Ancient Origins, which I persume might point to at least some Hephtalite ancestry.
But then again since no concrete Y-DNA, Autosomal component is attached to Hephtalite till date, one can only conjecture.
The landowner thing can be true as I also had a "chaudhury" match aside this menon, but somehow they disappeared. I think they have hidden their accounts.

bmoney
11-17-2017, 11:52 PM
The landowner thing can be true as I also had a "chaudhury" match aside this menon, but somehow they disappeared. I think they have hidden their accounts.

Yep, Chaudhry is a pan-Indo-Aryan landlord title - From Punjab to Bengal

bmoney
11-18-2017, 12:01 AM
Recorded History
Nair is a caste in the state of Kerala. They up until 1809AD, served as elite soldiers (simultaneously as landowners) for the various kings of Kerala. Almost all of the kings of Kerala(after circa. 1500), are in someway related to Nairs. There were also a part of them, employed as bureaucrats and domestic servants. Menon is historically a sub-class of the nairs. Menons were mostly landowners and bureaucrats. They were concentrated mainly in Northern Kerala up until 1780AD.
Origins
They were formed after circa. 980 AD, as a by product of the Namboothiri Migration(Brahmin) to Kerala. At least some part of them, migrated to Kerala along with the Namboothiris. The rest were made up by assimilation of the then elite of Kerala.
Genetics
The maternal line of the Nairs is predominantly ASI (to be confirmed). But the paternal line is predominantly ANI, this is due to vigorous intermarriage practices with Namboothiris up until 1940 AD.
Y-DNA(that I am aware of, unconfirmed)
R1a, R2, J2, L-M20.

Hephtalite legacy
No recorded material, that I am aware of. But K12 Ancient Origins gave a result of 25 % Steppee Ancestry for me and 34 % to bmoney.
I cannot differentiate the East Eurassian element in K12 Ancient Origins, which I persume might point to at least some Hephtalite ancestry.
But then again since no concrete Y-DNA, Autosomal component is attached to Hephtalite till date, one can only conjecture.

Good write up but I dispute the highlighted section - Todas Coorgis Bunts would have high levels of ANI and their history is entirely Dravidian - I'm leaning towards ancient West Asian ANI

The R1a1a might be from Brahmins, but BMG a Syrian Christian on this forum - who were converted almost 500 years before Brahmins arrived in Kerala is also R1a1a, so that contradicts the Brahmin link

Also the Brahmin sambandham thing did not happen in my part of Kerala (North Malabar) - most of Nair historical records were written by Western historians observing central Kerala which was never a part of the same kingdom and had separate traditions - in fact in Northern Kerala there was no such thing as a non-zamindar Nair - whereas central and south Kerala have soldiers and tradesmen (barbers even) who call themselves Nairs

I feel North Kerala Nairs are much more kin with Tulu Bunts in culture and origin - the Brahmin connection was in Central Kerala where 90% of them settled.

surbakhunWeesste
11-18-2017, 12:39 AM
Good write up but I dispute the highlighted section - Todas Coorgis Bunts would have high levels of ANI and their history is entirely Dravidian - I'm leaning towards ancient West Asian ANI

The R1a1a might be from Brahmins, but BMG a Syrian Christian on this forum - who were converted almost 500 years before Brahmins arrived in Kerala is also R1a1a, so that contradicts the Brahmin link

Also the Brahmin sambandham thing did not happen in my part of Kerala (North Malabar) - most of Nair historical records were written by Western historians observing central Kerala which was never a part of the same kingdom and had separate traditions - in fact in Northern Kerala there was no such thing as a non-zamindar Nair - whereas central and south Kerala have soldiers and tradesmen (barbers even) who call themselves Nairs

I feel North Kerala Nairs are much more kin with Tulu Bunts in culture and origin - the Brahmin connection was in Central Kerala where 90% of them settled.

Didn't Brahmins/Hinduism reach Kerala and South India in general before Christianity itself exist as a religion(before the birth of Christ, 0 A.D)?

bmoney
11-18-2017, 12:57 AM
Didn't Brahmins/Hinduism reach Kerala and South India in general before Christianity itself exist as a religion(before the birth of Christ, 0 A.D)?

Good question, Christianity existed in Kerala far before orthodox Hinduism and the Brahmins

Malik Dinar, a Sahabah, brought Islam to the subcontinent during the time of the Prophets life to Kerala around 700-750 AD -
possibly the earliest Muslim converts in South Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_Deenar

St Thomas Christians - or Syrian Christians - were first converted in 52 AD during the time of Thomas the Apostle. Whether Thomas came or not is irrelevant to the fact that they did convert then

According to tradition, Thomas the Apostle came to Muziris on the Kerala coast in 52 AD,[8] which is in present-day Pattanam, Kerala.

The Cochin Jews are known to have existed in Kerala in the 1st century AD,[15][16] and it was possible for an Aramaic-speaking Jew, such as St. Thomas from Galilee, to make a trip to Kerala then.[17] The earliest known source connecting the Apostle to India is the Acts of Thomas, likely written in the early 3rd century, perhaps in Edessa.[18][19]

On the other hand, Hindu Brahmins (Nambudiris) brought orthodox Hinduism in 500-700 AD - so possibly the same time Islam came into Kerala

Before that pre-Hindus were mostly Jains or followers of Dravidian/Ancient ASI Veddoid religion

surbakhunWeesste
11-18-2017, 01:17 AM
Good question, Christianity existed in Kerala far before orthodox Hinduism and the Brahmins

Malik Dinar, a Sahabah, brought Islam to the subcontinent during the time of the Prophets life to Kerala around 700-750 AD -
possibly the earliest Muslim converts in South Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_Deenar

St Thomas Christians - or Syrian Christians - were first converted in 52 AD during the time of Thomas the Apostle. Whether Thomas came or not is irrelevant to the fact that they did convert then

According to tradition, Thomas the Apostle came to Muziris on the Kerala coast in 52 AD,[8] which is in present-day Pattanam, Kerala.

The Cochin Jews are known to have existed in Kerala in the 1st century AD,[15][16] and it was possible for an Aramaic-speaking Jew, such as St. Thomas from Galilee, to make a trip to Kerala then.[17] The earliest known source connecting the Apostle to India is the Acts of Thomas, likely written in the early 3rd century, perhaps in Edessa.[18][19]

On the other hand, Hindu Brahmins (Nambudiris) brought orthodox Hinduism in 500-700 AD - so possibly the same time Islam came into Kerala

Before that pre-Hindus were mostly Jains or followers of Dravidian/Ancient ASI Veddoid religion

Pre-Hindu Jain? I always thought Jainism was some offshoot of Hinduism with Ahimsa, never met a real Jain person.
Also, ancient Veddoid religion? that's really interesting, like Shamanism?

bmoney
11-18-2017, 01:27 AM
Pre-Hindu Jain? I always thought Jainism was some offshoot of Hinduism with Ahimsa, never met a real Jain person.
Also, ancient Veddoid religion? that's really interesting, like Shamanism?

Jainism along with Buddhism have heavy Agama (non-Vedic) substrate, suggesting pre-Aryan religion. Maybe parasar can expand

Jains (probably Aryan) came to Kerala before Brahmins did though, that is a fact

Also, ancient Veddoid religion? that's really interesting, like Shamanism?

Yep, paleolithic South Asian shamanism - which still exists in southern India. Hinduism just incorporates them into the corpus and gives them Vedic back stories which is why it was a relatively inclusive religion, and why modern Hinduism is nothing like Vedic Hinduism

heres an example - not sure if its Dravidian Elam/West Asian or pre that, the goddess was given a Vedic backstory to fit in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamman

Shiva is considered to be an early incorporation, maybe it was a BMAC god, as he doesn't exist at the Indo-Iranian level

EDIT: fun fact its now a view that Yoga was an Agamic tradition copied into Hinduism (adopted by Brahmins) - it was present in Buddhism and Jainism before it was in Hinduism - not clear on the details though

pegasus
11-18-2017, 05:41 AM
Jainism along with Buddhism have heavy Agama (non-Vedic) substrate, suggesting pre-Aryan religion. Maybe parasar can expand

Jains (probably Aryan) came to Kerala before Brahmins did though, that is a fact

Also, ancient Veddoid religion? that's really interesting, like Shamanism?

Yep, paleolithic South Asian shamanism - which still exists in southern India. Hinduism just incorporates them into the corpus and gives them Vedic back stories which is why it was a relatively inclusive religion, and why modern Hinduism is nothing like Vedic Hinduism

heres an example - not sure if its Dravidian Elam/West Asian or pre that, the goddess was given a Vedic backstory to fit in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamman

Shiva is considered to be an early incorporation, maybe it was a BMAC god, as he doesn't exist at the Indo-Iranian level

EDIT: fun fact its now a view that Yoga was an Agamic tradition copied into Hinduism (adopted by Brahmins) - it was present in Buddhism and Jainism before it was in Hinduism - not clear on the details though

I would still say the dominant component of contemporary Hinduism is shaped by indigenous/ or Dravidian religions. . Shiva, goddess worship are most definitely local and concurrent with goddess cultures in the Mesopotamia and Iran, as well the BMAC. . Shiva seems to me a Dravidian deity/IVC ideology all the way but Vedic Aryans had a very similar deity Rudra, and are merged over time. Like the same way Virgin Mary is very similar with the earlier Guan Yin or local Roman goddesses , during the early Byzantine period.

bmoney
11-18-2017, 06:08 AM
I would still say the dominant component of contemporary Hinduism is shaped by indigenous/ or Dravidian religions. . Shiva, goddess worship are most definitely local and concurrent with goddess cultures in the Mesopotamia and Iran, as well the BMAC. . Shiva seems to me a Dravidian deity/IVC ideology all the way but Vedic Aryans had a very similar deity Rudra, and are merged over time. Like the same way Virgin Mary is very similar with the earlier Guan Yin or local Roman goddesses , during the early Byzantine period.

yep that happens all the time - Kartikeya and the Tamil god Murugan for example merged

People say Jesus had similarities to Egyptian and Greek pre-Christian figures in his story

parasar
11-21-2017, 07:45 PM
Jainism along with Buddhism have heavy Agama (non-Vedic) substrate, suggesting pre-Aryan religion. Maybe parasar can expand

Jains (probably Aryan) came to Kerala before Brahmins did though, that is a fact

...

The way I look at it is that the term "pre-Hindu Jain" would be an oxymoron. There is nothing like a Hindu really. Hindu's religious connotation came initially from Arabs who termed the non-Abrahamic population Hindu (except non-Abrahamic Zoroastrians who are referred to as Majus).
So the whole lot - animists, vedics, etc were all under the umbrella Hindu. There were followers of different teachers no doubt - Yajnavalka, Mahavir, Gautam, etc. (and I should also mention a Parasar, see below, to show how different the teachings could be). These gurus propounded their laws and a multitude of the population followed each or multiple of them.

As I have mentioned in other posts, numerous families had members following different teachers. You could have the husband following Yajnavalka and the wife following Gautam. The eldest sons of many mohyal brahman families were sent to follow the sikh panth.

Sometimes these teachers were in agreement, sometimes not.

To give an example Parasar. His law allowed widow re-marriage and Brahmans tilling the field which was considered a heresy by many other teachers. "When her husband is missing, or is dead, or has renounced the world, or is impotent, or has been degraded by sin,on any of the said five calamities befalling a woman, law has ordained another husband for her."
https://books.google.com/books?id=b_NAX90LuRYC&pg=PA22

We have a situation even where while Harsha was partial to the Buddh's teachings, his own court priest Banbhatt derided the Parasaris in no uncertain terms.
"these Sanyasis resided and lived by begging and passed their time in calm contemplation or strangely enough as described by Bana, in bowing to the idols in the temple. They are called Parasaris in the Harsha-Charita and elsewhere probably because they followed the rules laid down for Sanyasis by Parasara. They were generally Brahmins and although they had given up the world and wandered about they lived in towns as sustenance was only obtainable in human habi-tations. A few of them indeed were really good and learned men but the majority of them were in Bana's days irreligious and uneducated and had brought their order into contempt."

On the question of Jains and Brahmans, the Jina teacher Mahavir was himself born in a Brahman family (to Brahman Rishabhadatt of Kodal gotr and his wife Devnanda and subsequently transplanted!). Jain Sravaks are recorded very early in all parts of India and perhaps even in Tibet. The Mahavir's following got a boost when one of the emperors of Magadh - Chandragupt - became a follower and moved to SW India. I believe this tradition has credence.

We also have evidence from modern Tamil Nadu of Jain activities there in about the same time-frame.
It is clearly an inscription with Jaina affinity because you can see the drip line cut above the inscription, which is carved on the brow of the rock. The letters are very archaic and they are tall and narrow."
http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/history-and-culture/2200-year-old-Tamil-Brahmi-inscription-found-on-Samanamalai/article13240994.ece

So while I would not say that followers of Mahavir preceded the Brahmans in the south, they were there quite early - at least by around 300BC when Chadragupt abdicated the throne.

bmoney
11-21-2017, 10:54 PM
The way I look at it is that the term "pre-Hindu Jain" would be an oxymoron. There is nothing like a Hindu really. Hindu's religious connotation came initially from Arabs who termed the non-Abrahamic population Hindu (except non-Abrahamic Zoroastrians who are referred to as Majus).
So the whole lot - animists, vedics, etc were all under the umbrella Hindu. There were followers of different teachers no doubt - Yajnavalka, Mahavir, Gautam, etc. (and I should also mention a Parasar, see below, to show how different the teachings could be). These gurus propounded their laws and a multitude of the population followed each or multiple of them.

As I have mentioned in other posts, numerous families had members following different teachers. You could have the husband following Yajnavalka and the wife following Gautam. The eldest sons of many mohyal brahman families were sent to follow the sikh panth.

Sometimes these teachers were in agreement, sometimes not.

To give an example Parasar. His law allowed widow re-marriage and Brahmans tilling the field which was considered a heresy by many other teachers. "When her husband is missing, or is dead, or has renounced the world, or is impotent, or has been degraded by sin,—on any of the said five calamities befalling a woman, law has ordained another husband for her."
https://books.google.com/books?id=b_NAX90LuRYC&pg=PA22

We have a situation even where while Harsha was partial to the Buddh's teachings, his own court priest Banbhatt derided the Parasaris in no uncertain terms.
"these Sanyasis resided and lived by begging and passed their time in calm contemplation or strangely enough as described by Bana, in bowing to the idols in the temple. They are called Parasaris in the Harsha-Charita and elsewhere probably because they followed the rules laid down for Sanyasis by Parasara. They were generally Brahmins and although they had given up the world and wandered about they lived in towns as sustenance was only obtainable in human habi-tations. A few of them indeed were really good and learned men but the majority of them were in Bana's days irreligious and uneducated and had brought their order into contempt."

On the question of Jains and Brahmans, the Jina teacher Mahavir was himself born in a Brahman family (to Brahman Rishabhadatt of Kodal gotr and his wife Devnanda and subsequently transplanted!). Jain Sravaks are recorded very early in all parts of India and perhaps even in Tibet. The Mahavir's following got a boost when one of the emperors of Magadh - Chandragupt - became a follower and moved to SW India. I believe this tradition has credence.

We also have evidence from modern Tamil Nadu of Jain activities there in about the same time-frame.
“It is clearly an inscription with Jaina affinity because you can see the drip line cut above the inscription, which is carved on the brow of the rock. The letters are very archaic and they are tall and narrow."
http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/history-and-culture/2200-year-old-Tamil-Brahmi-inscription-found-on-Samanamalai/article13240994.ece

So while I would not say that followers of Mahavir preceded the Brahmans in the south, they were there quite early - at least by around 300BC when Chadragupt abdicated the throne.

They did in Kerala, maybe not the rest of the south :P - sorry just want to be strict on the fact. This is why Vedic Hinduism was new and prior to that it was a mix of animism, Buddhism, Jainism and Christianity before that in Kerala, possibly southern Karnataka as well (not Christianity though)

There are other places in South Asia where other forms of South Asian dharmic thought has preceded or succeeded Vedic Hinduism - Sri Lanka for example with Buddhism

Brahmins were relatively late migrants to Kerala, ie around a similar time to when Islam was formed. They also wiped the Jains and Buddhists off the map and reconverted most of their temples

parasar
11-22-2017, 03:12 AM
They did in Kerala, maybe not the rest of the south :P - sorry just want to be strict on the fact. This is why Vedic Hinduism was new and prior to that it was a mix of animism, Buddhism, Jainism and Christianity before that in Kerala, possibly southern Karnataka as well (not Christianity though)

There are other places in South Asia where other forms of South Asian dharmic thought has preceded or succeeded Vedic Hinduism - Sri Lanka for example with Buddhism

Brahmins were relatively late migrants to Kerala, ie around a similar time to when Islam was formed. They also wiped the Jains and Buddhists off the map and reconverted most of their temples

Possible, because it difficult to predict pre-history, but I still think it is unlikely. Brahmans (eg. Krshnayana) were in southern India by about 1000 BC so it would be difficult to imagine Kerala was not visited.

I think you have to look at the original material rather than the history that developed in the post colonial period [IMO only the British records should be followed, not their interpretations]. There are no Jains and Buddhists - only Brahmans, Shravaks, Shramans, Ajivikas, etc.
Asok, often called Buddhist by modern writers, no where has any antipathy against Brahmans - just the opposite: "generosity to friends, acquaintances, relatives, Brahmans and ascetics is good ... proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders ... respect for mother and father, generosity to friends, companions, relations, Brahmans and ascetics, and not killing living beings ..." etc. etc.

Asok lists a number of countries including Keralaputos (there is no earlier mention of Kerala in the historical record), but says that: "There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found" - which would mean that historically from its first mention as Kerala, Brahmans were there.

bmoney
11-22-2017, 03:20 AM
Possible, because it difficult to predict pre-history, but I still think it is unlikely. Brahmans (eg. Krshnayana) were in southern India by about 1000 BC so it would be difficult to imagine Kerala was not visited.

I think you have to look at the original material rather than the history that developed in the post colonial period [IMO only the British records should be followed, not their interpretations]. There are no Jains and Buddhists - only Brahmans, Shravaks, Shramans, Ajivikas, etc.
Asok, often called Buddhist by modern writers, no where has any antipathy against Brahmans - just the opposite: "generosity to friends, acquaintances, relatives, Brahmans and ascetics is good ... proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders ... respect for mother and father, generosity to friends, companions, relations, Brahmans and ascetics, and not killing living beings ..." etc. etc.

Asok lists a number of countries including Keralaputos (there is no earlier mention of Kerala in the historical record), but says that: "There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found" - which would mean that historically from its first mention as Kerala, Brahmans were there.

If there were Brahmins, they weren't Nambudiris and died out and left no historical trace anywhere - Nambudiris were a late import from Ahichatra near where you're from - their ranks were added to by Tulu Brahmins and Tamil speaking Iyers who migrated to Palakkad district. The latter two were considered inferior in the eyes of the Nambudiris however who considered themselves pure Srauta practitioners

parasar
11-22-2017, 05:51 AM
If there were Brahmins, they weren't Nambudiris and died out and left no historical trace anywhere - Nambudiris were a late import from Ahichatra near where you're from - their ranks were added to by Tulu Brahmins and Tamil speaking Iyers who migrated to Palakkad district. The latter two were considered inferior in the eyes of the Nambudiris however who considered themselves pure Srauta practitioners

Nambuthiris, true may be a later Brahman movement (Parasuram Brahman?), but here too the trivedic/sruti (older) nature of the Nambuthiris is odd. I will have to recheck the Lankan records on this. We get a lot on information from the periphery - Lanka, Tibet, and Burma since some of the older traditions that have disappeared from the core still show up there.

parasar
11-26-2017, 11:04 PM
Nambuthiris, true may be a later Brahman movement (Parasuram Brahman?), but here too the trivedic/sruti (older) nature of the Nambuthiris is odd. I will have to recheck the Lankan records on this. We get a lot on information from the periphery - Lanka, Tibet, and Burma since some of the older traditions that have disappeared from the core still show up there.

Went through the Lankan records again - and there is no doubt brahmans were there at the first dawn of the Aryan period there. They are mentioned all over in Mahavamsa, Culavamsa, and Dipavamsa.
When Devanapiyam Tissa (~260BC) adopted the Buddha's teachings, that too was done in the auspices of a brahman - Brahman Tivakka. Later a Brahman chief from southern Lanka - Brahman Tissa (~1st century BC) - took over the Lankan sovereignty until his death.

These Brahmans are Sinhala Brahmans as opposed to Damila Brahmans to their north who are also mentioned in the Lankan annals.

The Nambuthiris are not mentioned in the aforementioned accounts but there is class of folk in Lanka called Salea (Brahmans?) of Salagama/Saleagama that have the Nambudirige title. They claim to have come at different times to Lanka - initial immigration from Jambudvip (35 families from Kashi, Kuru, Mahapatna, etc.), in the Pandya period (some - no number given - when a Pandya princess married the Lankan monarch), and with Asok's embassy (100 families). They were an agricultural class and exempt from taxation.

I spoke to a couple of pre-Catholic period Syrian Christians and they too claim conversion from Nambuthiris. Not sure how reliable their accounts are.

bmoney
11-27-2017, 01:50 AM
Went through the Lankan records again - and there is no doubt brahmans were there first dawn of the Aryan period there. They are mentioned all over in Mahavamsa, Culavamsa, and Dipavamsa.
When Devanapiyam Tissa (~260BC) adopted the Buddha's teachings, that too was done in the auspices of a brahman - Brahman Tivakka. Later a Brahman chief from southern Lanka - Brahman Tissa (~1st century BC) - took over the Lankan sovereignty until his death.

These Brahmans are Sinhala Brahmans as opposed to Damila Brahmans to their north who are also mentioned in the Lankan annals.

The Nambuthiris are not mentioned in the aforementioned accounts but there is class of folk in Lanka called Salea (Brahmans?) of Salagama/Saleagama that have the Nambudirige title. They claim to have come at different times to Lanka - initial immigration from Jambudvip (35 families from Kashi, Kuru, Mahapatna, etc.), in the Pandya period (some - no number given - when a Pandya princess married the Lankan monarch), and with Asok's embassy (100 families). They were an agricultural class and exempt from taxation.

I spoke to a couple of pre-Catholic period Syrian Christians and they too claim conversion from Nambuthiris. Not sure how reliable their accounts are.

Thoroughly debunked claim - basic timelines for this dont work and the Nambudiri sample in Harappa is very different to the Syrian Christian average

Also Nambudiri is a Dravidian term so the relation with the Sri lankan would likely be purely linguistic - they were probably called something different in Ahichatra as they do not have Dravidian origins

BMG
11-27-2017, 02:27 AM
I spoke to a couple of pre-Catholic period Syrian Christians and they too claim conversion from Nambuthiris. Not sure how reliable their accounts are.
Though many families has claimed this the original story was regarding the Pakalomattom family who did the priestly duties and the head of the that family was called mooppan who was supposedly the religious head of Christian community during the precolonial era .This family had maintained that they were given this priestly rights since they converted from nambudiris .Up till 18th century the people from this family remained at the top.

Two branches from this family has done ydna testing . Both have shown different results .One of them is J-L534 and the tester believes he could be the descendant of a Cochin Jew who converted to Christianity in the early days . Other result was R-M124 L295- .

bmoney
11-27-2017, 05:19 AM
Though many families has claimed this the original story was regarding the Pakalomattom family who did the priestly duties and the head of the that family was called mooppan who was supposedly the religious head of Christian community during the precolonial era .This family had maintained that they were given this priestly rights since they converted from nambudiris .Up till 18th century the people from this family remained at the top.

Two branches from this family has done ydna testing . Both have shown different results .One of them is J-L534 and the tester believes he could be the descendant of a Cochin Jew who converted to Christianity in the early days . Other result was R-M124 L295- .

J is also a common lineage in Tamil Brahmins

parasar
11-27-2017, 05:38 AM
Though many families has claimed this the original story was regarding the Pakalomattom family who did the priestly duties and the head of the that family was called mooppan who was supposedly the religious head of Christian community during the precolonial era .This family had maintained that they were given this priestly rights since they converted from nambudiris .Up till 18th century the people from this family remained at the top.

Two branches from this family has done ydna testing . Both have shown different results .One of them is J-L534 and the tester believes he could be the descendant of a Cochin Jew who converted to Christianity in the early days . Other result was R-M124 L295- .

Interesting - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L534/ - one from Kerala and one Lankan.
On 5700ybp line with a parallel branch splitting that has a Gujarat Zoroastrian ( http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102645).

bmoney
11-27-2017, 11:22 AM
Interesting - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L534/ - one from Kerala and one Lankan.
On 5700ybp line with a parallel branch splitting that has a Gujarat Zoroastrian ( http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102645).

Contrary to the widely accepted elite dominance model, we found a substantial presence of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 haplogroups in both caste and tribal populations of India. Unlike demic spread in Eurasia, our results advocate a unique, complex and ancient arrival of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 haplogroups into Indian subcontinent.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709632/

BMG
11-27-2017, 03:24 PM
Interesting - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L534/ - one from Kerala and one Lankan.
On 5700ybp line with a parallel branch splitting that has a Gujarat Zoroastrian ( http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102645).
He is YF03291 . There are also two other syrian christian samples with J-L70 and J-L243 and another L-24 not belonging to any of the three subclades .

parasar
11-27-2017, 04:29 PM
He is YF03291 . There are also two other syrian christian samples with J-L70 and J-L243 and another L-24 not belonging to any of the three subclades .

Yes I thought so. The interesting thing is despite the much higher levels of testing in Europe and the Middle East, the two L534 are from the south and the whole 5700ybp branch has 3 members, all from the subcontinent.

I think you mean L24, right?

BMG
11-27-2017, 05:21 PM
Yes I thought so. The interesting thing is despite the much higher levels of testing in Europe and the Middle East, the two L534 are from the south and the whole 5700ybp branch has 3 members, all from the subcontinent.

I think you mean L24, right?

Perhaps that is an indian specific subclade but iran and central asia is still undertested and yes i meant L24

Afshar
02-13-2018, 09:51 AM
Is there any source I can read regarding the origin of jatts (and different subclans)?

parasar
02-14-2018, 03:44 PM
Is there any source I can read regarding the origin of jatts (and different subclans)?

Jats don't appear in the historical record until the Arab period. But of course they did not just emerge in circa 700AD. So efforts have been made to connect to peoples prior, and in this effort much liberty has been taken.

Bhim Singh Dahiya's work is perhaps the best known - https://www.jatland.com/home/Bhim_Singh_Dahiya - but it can't be mistaken for a historical account.

Then we have accounts from British Civil servants that are very good - though I recommend just their accounts and not their analysis.
For eg. about Sidhu, Griffin says: "Ghumman, the founder of the Sidhu Jat tribe, came originally from Bhata in Malwah, about 300 years ago, during the reign of the Emperor Akbar" (The tradition Griffin records is likely correct as during the Akbar period Bhata and Malwa fell to the Mughals in the 1560s. There were periodic attacks on Bhata from Jaunpur and Allahabad. The famous Tansen was brought from Bhata.).

Good historical material on Jats exclusively does not exist, but I would recommend Andre Wink's notices on Jats in his works.
"Samma and Jat - the two tribes from which the majority of Sindhis descend"
https://books.google.com/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA158

prashantvaidwan
02-14-2018, 04:44 PM
@PARASAR except brahmanas which communities of modern time are mentioned in ancient historical records. Timeline and how old those communities are in your analysis?.. Many castes name itself are considered the distorted form of sanskrit words.. As Brahman Baniya Kumhar Chamar etc.. Any idea abt jat word

parasar
02-14-2018, 10:40 PM
@PARASAR except brahmanas which communities of modern time are mentioned in ancient historical records. Timeline and how old those communities are in your analysis?.. Many castes name itself are considered the distorted form of sanskrit words.. As Brahman Baniya Kumhar Chamar etc.. Any idea abt jat word

Kshatriya lines are often mentioned, but they are not to be confused with modern Rajput. The latter are only partly Kshatriya.
Then we have Vaisyas in the record. Eg. Harshvardhan of Kannauj.
Kayasthas often used to list their caste on documents they authored.
Baniya is very old and may even go back to the Pani of the Rg Veda.

More often mentioned are the clans that became part of the Jat umbrella.

If the way it is pronounced in the Punjab is correct, it would mean perhaps followers of Shiv. Jutt may be the correct pronunciation rather than JATh as we also see the Zutt form in Arabic.

This only a speculative theory:
They may have lived near the ocean (south Indus) and become active in the interior areas in the pre-Rajput period when the clans we now know as Rajputs came into the fore as a result of the Arab invasion of Sindh.
A people quite like them are mentioned by Xuanzang and would also make sense as to why Arabs noticed them.

bmoney
02-14-2018, 10:43 PM
Is there any source I can read regarding the origin of jatts (and different subclans)?

Originally the Jats were pastoralists (Khazanov and Wink, 2001), and gradually became farmers. Although farming settlements emerged in the Indus Valley Civilization about 4,000 BCE (Violatti, 2013), and Jats have been firmly settled as agriculturists in the same geographical region, a connection between the two has not been explored thoroughly. Apparently, this is because there is no conclusive written history of the people of the Indian subcontinent when we look back more than about 2,500 years. As a result, the deep ancestry of the Jat people has remained a mystery for a long time.

More recently, numerous books have been written about Indian history and scholarship has been attempted over the origins of the Jats. Several historians have asserted that Jats were descendants of Indo-Aryans (Risley, 1915; Vaidya, 1921; Singh, 1963; Joon, 1967; Dahiya, 1980; Jindal, 1992; Qanungo, 2003), or Indo-Scythians (Elphinstone, 1841; Cunningham, 1871; Tod, 1920; Mahil, 1955; Marshall, 1960; Dhillon, 1994; Nijjar, 2008). The focus of most historians has been on the Indo-Aryan migrations to north India, which started around 1750 BCE, and the arrival of Indo-Scythians later around 200 BCE. The historical debate between the Aryan and Scythian origins of the Jats has continued (Panwar, 1993). In the scientific community as well, there are varied opinions regarding the Indo-Aryan migrations to India (Wells et al., 2001; Cordaux et al., 2004; Metspalu et al., 2011).

This study has shown that the genetic origins of the Jats can be traced to at least nine and possibly more MRCA's, with nine different geographical origins that are spread thousands of miles apart (e.g., from the Fertile Crescent to Serbia). These nine MRCAs were genetically different. Therefore, any assertion that Jats are descendants of a single ancient population such as, the Indo-Aryans or Indo-Scythians cannot be supported. However, certain members of the Jat ethnic group who belong to haplogroups L and R—along with members of several other ethnic groups in the Indian subcontinent who belong to the same two haplogroups—are the most probable candidates to be linked to these ancient populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

Afshar
02-15-2018, 07:27 AM
The reason I asked, is that I have seen Q1a1b haplogroup in malik and randhawa clans of jatt and also a kashmiri pandit (which is not jatt??), and on yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP4385/ the indian sample (most likely jatt from punjab or haryana), the lahore sample is most likely also jatt. The distribution among multiple clans does not seem as a coincidence, maybe other haplogroups also point in the same direction.

Afshar
02-15-2018, 08:21 AM
Originally the Jats were pastoralists (Khazanov and Wink, 2001), and gradually became farmers. Although farming settlements emerged in the Indus Valley Civilization about 4,000 BCE (Violatti, 2013), and Jats have been firmly settled as agriculturists in the same geographical region, a connection between the two has not been explored thoroughly. Apparently, this is because there is no conclusive written history of the people of the Indian subcontinent when we look back more than about 2,500 years. As a result, the deep ancestry of the Jat people has remained a mystery for a long time.

More recently, numerous books have been written about Indian history and scholarship has been attempted over the origins of the Jats. Several historians have asserted that Jats were descendants of Indo-Aryans (Risley, 1915; Vaidya, 1921; Singh, 1963; Joon, 1967; Dahiya, 1980; Jindal, 1992; Qanungo, 2003), or Indo-Scythians (Elphinstone, 1841; Cunningham, 1871; Tod, 1920; Mahil, 1955; Marshall, 1960; Dhillon, 1994; Nijjar, 2008). The focus of most historians has been on the Indo-Aryan migrations to north India, which started around 1750 BCE, and the arrival of Indo-Scythians later around 200 BCE. The historical debate between the Aryan and Scythian origins of the Jats has continued (Panwar, 1993). In the scientific community as well, there are varied opinions regarding the Indo-Aryan migrations to India (Wells et al., 2001; Cordaux et al., 2004; Metspalu et al., 2011).

This study has shown that the genetic origins of the Jats can be traced to at least nine and possibly more MRCA's, with nine different geographical origins that are spread thousands of miles apart (e.g., from the Fertile Crescent to Serbia). These nine MRCAs were genetically different. Therefore, any assertion that Jats are descendants of a single ancient population such as, the Indo-Aryans or Indo-Scythians cannot be supported. However, certain members of the Jat ethnic group who belong to haplogroups L and R—along with members of several other ethnic groups in the Indian subcontinent who belong to the same two haplogroups—are the most probable candidates to be linked to these ancient populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

Do you know if the STR values of that paper are publicly available somewhere?

prashantvaidwan
02-15-2018, 08:41 AM
Jats don't appear in the historical record until the Arab period. But of course they did not just emerge in circa 700AD. So efforts have been made to connect to peoples prior, and in this effort much liberty has been taken.

Bhim Singh Dahiya's work is perhaps the best known - https://www.jatland.com/home/Bhim_Singh_Dahiya - but it can't be mistaken for a historical account.

Then we have accounts from British Civil servants that are very good - though I recommend just their accounts and not their analysis.
For eg. about Sidhu, Griffin says: "Ghumman, the founder of the Sidhu Jat tribe, came originally from Bhata in Malwah, about 300 years ago, during the reign of the Emperor Akbar" (The tradition Griffin records is likely correct as during the Akbar period Bhata and Malwa fell to the Mughals in the 1560s. There were periodic attacks on Bhata from Jaunpur and Allahabad. The famous Tansen was brought from Bhata.).

Good historical material on Jats exclusively does not exist, but I would recommend Andre Wink's notices on Jats in his works.
"Samma and Jat - the two tribes from which the majority of Sindhis descend"
https://books.google.com/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA158

Kayastha are no where mentioned in vedas, in puranas they are classified as shudras..though they claim themselves from the lineage of chitra gupta and few claims originated from brahman and Kshatriya...anyway, this is not a big deal...each and every community in India claims a divine origin...and few of them has directly descended from heaven....I don't know how many of us take those mythological stories seriously and what part of history has been extracted from those stories to hold our claims.. I think the communities who stepped up on the social ladder, their claims hold some substance in the eyes of a common man...rest are treated as trash.... But as a whole there is hardly any historical accuracy attached with it..

Few claims which place jat before 7th century in history:

- Xuanzang account about harsha may be grossly mis-interpreted...The word "fei-she" is generally restored as "vaishya" but even today there are many villages of "bains" jatt around Thanesar ..(capital of harsha)..I hope you would have heard about "khap system" of jats...this democratic set up of jats was formed by harsha as per khap accounts

- there also have been attempts to link jat with ancient "jarta" people...Ptolemy mentions the Zaratoi and Pliny describes Geratae living in the country of Punjab

- Gujarat is also interpreted as a distortion of "gur+ jarta" further linking it to "massa+ geate"...not sure how much validity this analogy hold

- chandragomin "ajay jarto hunan" is highly used by many historians to link yashodharman or guptas rulers to be jat..KP jaiswal has claimed guptas to be of "dharan" jat gotras....

- Col Tod mentioned king shalindra of 5th century as "jit" and listed jit(jat) in his list of 36 royal clans

All the indic rulers between 400 BC to 500 AD were mentioned as shudras, malcehhas , vaishayas etc ..I don't know what were Kshatriyas doing in that period..?

Sapporo
02-15-2018, 09:53 AM
Do you know if the STR values of that paper are publicly available somewhere?

Im not sure about that but the study bmoney posted shows that 15.6% of Jatt/Jats sampled (mostly Sikh and Hindu) belong to Y-DNA Q. Im also sharing with a Haryanvi Hindu Jat on 23andme who is Q.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

Afshar
02-15-2018, 11:23 AM
I’m not sure about that but the study bmoney posted shows that 15.6% of Jatt/Jats sampled (mostly Sikh and Hindu) belong to Y-DNA Q. I’m also sharing with a Haryanvi Hindu Jat on 23andme who is Q.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/
Which is a very significant number. We really need some STR or subclade info

Sapporo
02-15-2018, 06:17 PM
Which is a very significant number. We really need some STR or subclade info

Unfortunately, most of the Jatt haplogroup samples I've collected from 23andMe along with a friend are predominately L1c-M357 and R1a1a. I've been getting data mostly through relative finder since 23andMe removed the surname search function. However, we've also found 2 Q's per the spreadsheet. The Haryanvi Hindu Jat is Q1a* (Q1a2) and the Sikh Jatt is Q-M25 (Q1a1b).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

parasar
02-15-2018, 07:12 PM
Kayastha are no where mentioned in vedas ...

As I had noted: "Kayasthas often used to list their caste on documents they authored."




- Xuanzang account about harsha may be grossly mis-interpreted...The word "fei-she" is generally restored as "vaishya" but even today there are many villages of "bains" jatt around Thanesar ..(capital of harsha)..I hope you would have heard about "khap system" of jats...this democratic set up of jats was formed by harsha as per khap accounts


Xuanzang's accounts are extremely reliable. There is no misinterpretation as the word has been used elsewhere by him.
See also:
Arya-manjusri-mulakalpa
"Rajyavardhana and Harshavardhana; and War with Soma (Sasanka)
R. (Rajyavardhana) , the excellent king of the Vaisya caste in Madhyadesa ... His younger brother H. (Harshavardhana)..."



- there also have been attempts to link jat with ancient "jarta" people...Ptolemy mentions the Zaratoi and Pliny describes Geratae living in the country of Punjab

- Gujarat is also interpreted as a distortion of "gur+ jarta" further linking it to "massa+ geate"...not sure how much validity this analogy hold

I would say 0 validity.

Heir of Gandhara
02-15-2018, 09:27 PM
Unfortunately, most of the Jatt haplogroup samples I've collected from 23andMe along with a friend are predominately L1c-M357 and R1a1a. I've been getting data mostly through relative finder since 23andMe removed the surname search function. However, we've also found 2 Q's per the spreadsheet. The Haryanvi Hindu Jat is Q1a* (Q1a2) and the Sikh Jatt is Q-M25 (Q1a1b).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

Sapporo it appears from your statements that you think the study cannot be completely trusted. Is there an obvious flaw in there? Because if there is no flaw, and if also the samples are sufficiently random, 380 is a very good sample size - by Law of Large Numbers in case you have studied distributions. So if ~15% of Jatts were found to have been belonging to the Q Haplogroup, then the results should not and cannot be ignored.

P.S: I think the DG Mahal paper is under discussion here.

Sapporo
02-15-2018, 10:01 PM
Sapporo it appears from your statements that you think the study cannot be completely trusted. Is there an obvious flaw in there? Because if there is no flaw, and if also the samples are sufficiently random, 380 is a very good sample size - by Law of Large Numbers in case you have studied distributions. So if ~15% of Jatts were found to have been belonging to the Q Haplogroup, then the results should not and cannot be ignored.

P.S: I think the DG Mahal paper is under discussion here.

I think you're misinterpreting me. Perhaps, "unfortunately" was the wrong term. I just meant in a jokingly way since I didn't have more info on subclades or details for Afshar regarding Jatts with Y-DNA Q since the vast majority of the data I collected on the spreadsheet is for L1c-M357/L1a2 + R-M417/R1a1a Jatts along with a fair amount of J.

Personally, I think the study essentially matches up with my own attempt at collecting haplogroup data for Jatts (predominately Sikh and some Hindu with a few Muslims as well). The vast majority of Jatts are either Y-DNA L or R. The rest are J, Q, H, etc. If anything, the only issue I have with the study is the undersampling of Muslim Jatts. I wish they had at least 50 samples from Pakistan.

khanabadoshi
02-15-2018, 10:27 PM
The reason I asked, is that I have seen Q1a1b haplogroup in malik and randhawa clans of jatt and also a kashmiri pandit (which is not jatt??), and on yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP4385/ the indian sample (most likely jatt from punjab or haryana), the lahore sample is most likely also jatt. The distribution among multiple clans does not seem as a coincidence, maybe other haplogroups also point in the same direction.

Malik can be anything, however, in my experience, almost all Maliks I've met are Rajput. A significant amount of them have usually been from the Potohar region. Maybe Heirs of Gandhara has better insight. For me the Malik association is: Rajput, many from around Rawalpindi area (but you will find them all over... I knew many in Multan.. all Rajput too lol), usually tall (I can think of 3 Malik families where all the women are 6ft+), and someone in their family is currently a part of the military or their ancestors were, and as the name implies... ain't none of them poor.

Sapporo
02-15-2018, 10:33 PM
Malik can be anything, however, in my experience, almost all Maliks I've met are Rajput. A significant amount of them have usually been from the Potohar region. Maybe Heirs of Gandhara has better insight. For me the Malik association is: Rajput, many from around Rawalpindi area, usually tall, and someone in their family is currently a part of the military or their ancestors were, and as the name implies... ain't none of them poor.

In this case, it is V Malik. He has been sharing with me on 23andMe since around 2013-2014 and tested even earlier than me. He is Haryanvi Hindu Jat. All his actual clan names are typcally Jat.

Note: This particular individual is an actual Harappa participant as well and I know his specific participant ID.

khanabadoshi
02-15-2018, 10:36 PM
In this case, it is V Malik. He has been sharing with me on 23andMe since around 2013-2014 and tested even earlier than me. He is Haryanvi Hindu Jat. He is most certainly Jat rather than Rajput and his actual clan names are all Jat.

We need to send out a Public Service Announcement:

ATTN: ALL SOUTH ASIANS and SOUTH CENTRAL ASIANS. WE DON'T NEED YOUR TITLE OR FATHER'S NAME OR MIDDLE NAME. TRIBE/CLAN/GOTRA ONLY PLEASE.

It would certainly make our lives easier.

pegasus
02-15-2018, 10:37 PM
Malik is an Arabic word literally meaning Lord or King inferring some landowner or ruler, I know a Jat Sikh with this surname as well. So it can be literally anyone from some land owning class.

surbakhunWeesste
02-15-2018, 10:57 PM
Malik is an Arabic word literally meaning Lord or King inferring some landowner or ruler, I know a Jat Sikh with this surname as well. So it can be literally anyone from some land owning class.

Malik can mean many things in Arabic

1. Malik= owner
2. Maelek = king
3. Malak= angel
south Asians use mallik( mall- lik), esp Pakistanis, they probably are confused themselves! In many indo aryan languages, Malik means owner as well...

Heir of Gandhara
02-15-2018, 11:04 PM
Malik is an Islamic/Arabic title mostly adopted by the Muslims but I have also seen Hindu Haryanvi Jats using the title.

The most numerous tribe using the title are the Awans of Pothwar who always use Malik as the title. Among the Rajput status (but not always origin) claiming people the Ghebas and the Jodhras from Attock also mainly use Malik as their title. The Tiwanas of Khushab who again claim Rajput descent also use Malik. Among the Janjuas the title is only used by the chief of the tribe or his eldest son when he passes away.

Moving on to Central Punjab, the Kalal converts to Islam who call themselves Kakezai also use the title. And lately, I have also seen a few Arians from Lahore using it.

surbakhunWeesste
02-15-2018, 11:10 PM
We need to send out a Public Service Announcement:

ATTN: ALL SOUTH ASIANS and SOUTH CENTRAL ASIANS. WE DON'T NEED YOUR TITLE OR FATHER'S NAME OR MIDDLE NAME. TRIBE/CLAN/GOTRA ONLY PLEASE.

It would certainly make our lives easier.

Well, many have adopted tribes, gotra etc... I am diggin in hey hey, say a bhramin of Gotra A but their Ydna peaks amongst East Asians. This thang has confused me even more, gotra means lineage-male lineage and that means dem all bros should have the same ydna. Or durranis crying over how Ahmad shah durrani is of ydna L_ _ _ , peek a boo R1a...yaall padar_ _ _
You should be asking: what are the gotras/ tribes within your immediate and a bit further familia within blah blah generations.
.

bmoney
02-15-2018, 11:46 PM
Do you know if the STR values of that paper are publicly available somewhere?

Email the author, would be interesting to know

I have 1 top 20 23andme relative whos Q-M346, and found 2 Nair Qs in the FTDNA page one is Q-L56 and the other Q-M346, so it made it to South India as well

Kulin
02-15-2018, 11:47 PM
Malik can be anything, however, in my experience, almost all Maliks I've met are Rajput. A significant amount of them have usually been from the Potohar region. Maybe Heirs of Gandhara has better insight. For me the Malik association is: Rajput, many from around Rawalpindi area (but you will find them all over... I knew many in Multan.. all Rajput too lol), usually tall (I can think of 3 Malik families where all the women are 6ft+), and someone in their family is currently a part of the military or their ancestors were, and as the name implies... ain't none of them poor.

I know a Malik from Lahore who's 6 ft 4 inches tall. Not sure if Rajput though.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 12:02 AM
Well, many have adopted tribes, gotra etc... I am diggin in hey hey, say a bhramin of Gotra A but their Ydna peaks amongst East Asians. This thang has confused me even more, gotra means lineage-male lineage and that means dem all bros should have the same ydna. Or durranis crying over how Ahmad shah durrani is of ydna L_ _ _ , peek a boo R1a...ya”all padar_ _ _
You should be asking: what are the gotras/ tribes within your immediate and a bit further familia within blah blah generations.
.

Yeah when a Brahmin turns out L/J, R2 or H (almost up to 50% in some sampled Brahmin castes) you wonder if the super strict gotra system is just a system that can be cheated like everything else in life

EDIT: the case for the accuracy of the gotra system is much stronger if the Yamna-like first wave aryans were J/R2, but J and R2 arent found anywhere in ancient Yamna samples

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 12:11 AM
Yeah when a Brahmin turns out L/J or H you wonder if the super strict gotra system is just a system that can be cheated like everything else in life

Ahem, Veda Vyasa's mum was a fisherwoman! dad Parshara(also gotra)- right?: you belong to whatever your father's tribe/gotra is/was... but do they even practice that within the Hindu faith now-a-days.

Or the sons of mahabharata kings, Pandava, weren't they sons of demi-gods or something(Asian studies class you failed me) so adopted gotra works as well! pretty sure no one practices that anymore. It has boiled into "how pure is your genetic line" lulz
I knew a lot more examples fugde, I wanted to mention dem all here

poi
02-16-2018, 12:29 AM
Well, many have adopted tribes, gotra etc... I am diggin in hey hey, say a bhramin of Gotra A but their Ydna peaks amongst East Asians. This thang has confused me even more, gotra means lineage-male lineage and that means dem all bros should have the same ydna. Or durranis crying over how Ahmad shah durrani is of ydna L_ _ _ , peek a boo R1a...yaall padar_ _ _
You should be asking: what are the gotras/ tribes within your immediate and a bit further familia within blah blah generations.
.

Not necessarily, because of adoptions of male children. Brahmins practiced monogamy for the most part and also having a son was like the life's goal, according to the shastras/smritis. If a couple could not conceive a son, they would adapt a son. The son would be a Brahmin and the true son for the couple, for all intent and purpose.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 12:30 AM
Ahem, Veda Vyasa's mum was a fisherwoman! dad Parshara(also gotra)- right?: you belong to whatever your father's tribe/gotra is/was... but do they even practice that within the Hindu faith now-a-days.

Or the sons of mahabharata kings, Pandava, weren't they sons of demi-gods or something(Asian studies class you failed me) so adopted gotra works as well! pretty sure no one practices that anymore. It has boiled into "how pure is your genetic line" lulz
I knew a lot more examples fugde, I wanted to mention dem all here

Brahmins yes - should usually have documents describing lineage to a founder who is may be mythological now but probably originally an actual person

Rajputs have more mythological gotras to justify their inclusion into the Brahman caste system but operate more on a clan system like the Jatts

bmoney
02-16-2018, 12:33 AM
Not necessarily, because of adoptions of male children. Brahmins practiced monogamy for the most part and also having a son was like the life's goal, according to the shastras/smritis. If a couple could not conceive a son, they would adapt a son. The son would be a Brahmin and the true son for the couple, for all intent and purpose.

Might explain some of it - but isn't the Brahmins ritual purity traced to his genealogical lineage?

Also how prevalent do you think the practice is? surely not enough to determine 40%+ of lines

poi
02-16-2018, 12:41 AM
Might explain some of it - but isn't the Brahmins ritual purity traced to his genealogical lineage?

Also how prevalent do you think the practice is? surely not enough to determine 40%+ of lines

May be not, but a brahmin gotra is traced to a sage and we know that there were sages that came from diverse background, mythologically speaking. Chances were not all of them were R1a1a1c1r1a1z1y lol.

khanabadoshi
02-16-2018, 12:44 AM
Well, many have adopted tribes, gotra etc... I am diggin in hey hey, say a bhramin of Gotra A but their Ydna peaks amongst East Asians. This thang has confused me even more, gotra means lineage-male lineage and that means dem all bros should have the same ydna. Or durranis crying over how Ahmad shah durrani is of ydna L_ _ _ , peek a boo R1a...yaall padar_ _ _
You should be asking: what are the gotras/ tribes within your immediate and a bit further familia within blah blah generations.
.

Beggars can't be choosers, at this point I'll take any specificity over:

Farhan Mushtaq, Saleem Akhtar, Javed Mian, Bakhtawar Pervaiz, Imtiaz Buksh

uff Allah.

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 12:59 AM
Not necessarily, because of adoptions of male children. Brahmins practiced monogamy for the most part and also having a son was like the life's goal, according to the shastras/smritis. If a couple could not conceive a son, they would adapt a son. The son would be a Brahmin and the true son for the couple, for all intent and purpose.


I am still reading about Bhramins/Rishis etc, and I come across something like: one woman marrying the sapta rishis. The gods having many wives. I reckon polygamy was a norm, tbh, The sapta rishis: the gotra givers had multiple wives, maybe polygamy ceased to exist later? well, it ain't legal now anyways unless in an islamic country or if one is a mormon.

Actually, many nepali bhramins I met in the villages had two or more wives and many here(US) said their grandfather had two wives etc.

Childless couples visit a sage and the sage gifts the couple with a son, I smell debauchery. The more I read, I jump on the couch lol, it's a major cultural/trivial shock. Reminds me of many pakistani/indian fakirs. I am pretty sure such practices are worldwide(should peck on my woods eh), I have been living under a rock. Caste was bestowed based on qualities: Gunakarma(Bhagavada gita) but it got baked into prejudice and what not. I was thrilled when Ravana in Ramayana: the Rakshaysha-demon was a bhramin by birth, dyum, plot twist. I'd assume him to be of the Ashura oh myen.

poi
02-16-2018, 01:12 AM
I am still reading about Bhramins/Rishis etc, and I come across something like: one woman marrying the sapta rishis. The gods having many wives. I reckon polygamy was a norm, tbh, The sapta rishis: the gotra givers had multiple wives, maybe polygamy ceased to exist later? well, it ain't legal now anyways unless in an islamic country or if one is a mormon.

Actually, many nepali bhramins I met in the villages had two or more wives and many here(US) said their grandfather had two wives etc.

Childless couples visit a sage and the sage gifts the couple with a son, I smell debauchery. The more I read, I jump on the couch lol, it's a major cultural/trivial shock. Reminds me of many pakistani/indian fakirs. I am pretty sure such practices are worldwide(should peck on my woods eh), I have been living under a rock. Caste was bestowed based on qualities: Gunakarma(Bhagavada gita) but it got baked into prejudice and what not. I was thrilled when Ravana in Ramayana: the Rakshaysha-demon was a bhramin by birth, dyum, plot twist. I'd assume him to be of the Ashura oh myen.

Regarding Nepali Brahmins polygamy, my own paternal grandfather, being a lawyer and travelling a lot, apparently had a 'mistress' although we didn't talk about it at home.lol

Also, you're right, the Rakshas Ravan was a brahmin and a king. Weird. And a lot of RigVedic dieties are apparently Asurs, like Varun and Mitra, so Asur did not have negative connotation. But Rakshas always did have negative connotations.

bmoney
02-16-2018, 02:39 AM
Regarding Nepali Brahmins polygamy, my own paternal grandfather, being a lawyer and travelling a lot, apparently had a 'mistress' although we didn't talk about it at home.lol

Also, you're right, the Rakshas Ravan was a brahmin and a king. Weird. And a lot of RigVedic dieties are apparently Asurs, like Varun and Mitra, so Asur did not have negative connotation. But Rakshas always did have negative connotations.

When the Vedic Aryans brought their version of elite-dominance I'm sure there was some form of polygamy.

In modern Hinduism Krsna/Krishan had 16000 consorts and 8 legitimate wives (ashtabharya)

yes the Ravan thing suprised me too - he was described with good qualities (good warrior, administrator, scholar, ruler) and meant to be one of the most devout Shiv worshippers

He was described as handsome and black-skinned - damn what happened to white-skinned Aryan 'Invasion'

Also surprised that Sri Lanka according to Hindu texts is the land of the Rakshas lol

poi
02-16-2018, 03:22 AM
When the Vedic Aryans brought their version of elite-dominance I'm sure there was some form of polygamy.

In modern Hinduism Krsna/Krishan had 16000 consorts and 8 legitimate wives (ashtabharya)

yes the Ravan thing suprised me too - he was described with good qualities (good warrior, administrator, scholar, ruler) and meant to be one of the most devout Shiv worshippers

He was described as handsome and black-skinned - damn what happened to white-skinned Aryan 'Invasion'

Also surprised that Sri Lanka according to Hindu texts is the land of the Rakshas lol

Was that before the Bengali Buddhists migrated there?

Regarding polygamy, the ruling classes Khastriya were polygamous for sure. You need your genes to spread as a ruler back then. Rishis like Vasisht et al were all monogamous. Terms like brahman and brahmani were used to denote the monogamous nature. But kings had Raja and pat-rani. Krishna, having being brought up among the cowherders (shudra?), until his divine revelations, was just fooling around with the gopinis (not wives but were like his admirers or girlfriends at most). But he was Kshatriya and was a king of Dwarika, so polygamy makes sense.

poi
02-16-2018, 03:26 AM
He was described as handsome and black-skinned - damn what happened to white-skinned Aryan 'Invasion'


Krishna literally meant black. But some here might claim him to be 'intermediate' though. Lol

prashantvaidwan
02-16-2018, 03:42 AM
In Haryana and West up, there are 84 villages of jats with Malik title.. Clan name is Lall and khap is gathwala.. As per folk fare,, Originated from garh - ghajni Afghanistan.. One of very dominating clan of hindu jats.. Most of them are tall and sturdy

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 03:43 AM
Krishna literally meant black. But some here might claim him to be 'intermediate' though. Lol

Hahahahahahaha choked bwahahahahahahaha

bmoney
02-16-2018, 03:49 AM
Krishna literally meant black. But some here might claim him to be 'intermediate' though. Lol

Run him through the skin colour predictor

surbakhunWeesste
02-16-2018, 03:56 AM
Krishna literally meant black. But some here might claim him to be 'intermediate' though. Lol

Dude! Have you seen some of the Hindu goddesses and some gods, despite the description of their complexions etc... those pics are majorly west Eurasian shifted.... Sometimes, I wonder did colonialism leave the “dark is bad and evil” inferiority complex or was it the vedic invasion. Thought provoking eh, controversial.

and the portrait of Jesus.
WHG Jesus, middle eastern Jesus, African Jesus, East Asian jesus etc etc makes me think about how serious people can get

Also how many south central Asians etc are depicted lol.

tipirneni
02-16-2018, 04:00 AM
Malik is an Islamic/Arabic title mostly adopted by the Muslims but I have also seen Hindu Haryanvi Jats using the title.

The most numerous tribe using the title are the Awans of Pothwar who always use Malik as the title. Among the Rajput status (but not always origin) claiming people the Ghebas and the Jodhras from Attock also mainly use Malik as their title. The Tiwanas of Khushab who again claim Rajput descent also use Malik. Among the Janjuas the title is only used by the chief of the tribe or his eldest son when he passes away.

Moving on to Central Punjab, the Kalal converts to Islam who call themselves Kakezai also use the title. And lately, I have also seen a few Arians from Lahore using it.
Some Kamma & Kuruba Yadava warriors from Warangal and Bijapur who were caught in war by Delhi Sultanate had title Malik. After Vijayanagar kingdom flourished well many of these came back to their Hindu names. eq. Malik Maqbul was kamma commander in Warangal before working for Tuglaq

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Malik%20Maqbul

bmoney
02-16-2018, 04:02 AM
Dude! Have you seen some of the Hindu goddesses and some gods, despite the description of their complexions etc... those pics are majorly west Eurasian shifted.... Sometimes, I wonder did colonialism leave the “dark is bad and evil” inferiority complex or was it the vedic invasion. Thought provoking eh, controversial.

The most fair skinned SAs are all Shudras or outside the caste system doe, so while selection for fair skin exists in modern SA society - to say it was a tenet of Vedic Hinduism is a bit of a stretch (not your position but a position that is commonly held)

Brahui, Nursitanis/Dards, Kalash, Hunza valley peoples - they would have been called mleccha by the Vedic Aryans

Later Vedic literature speaks of the western Anava tribes as mlecchas and occupying northern Punjab, Sindh and eastern Rajasthan. The tribes of the north were mlecchas either because they were located on the frontiers such as Gandhara, Kashmira and Kambojas and therefore both their speech and culture had become contaminated and differed from that of Āryāvarta, or else, as in the case of southern India, they were once Aryas but having forsaken the Vedic rituals were regarded to mleccha status.[22][not in citation given]

Among the tribes termed Mlechcha were Sakas, Huns, Yavanas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Bahlikas and Rishikas.[4] The Amarakosha described the Kiratas , Khasas and Pulindas as the Mleccha-jatis. Indo-Greeks, Scythians,[5] and Kushanas[6] were also mlecchas.[7][8]

The Vayu, Matsya and Brahmanda Puranas state that the seven Himalayan rivers pass through mleccha countries.[9]

Its funny how the native darkie Dravidians were not even mentioned once