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J Man
09-15-2015, 10:11 PM
As far as I know my grandfather is of 100% Southern Italy ancestry with all of his ancestors coming from the Calabria region. Of all of the Italian results at 23andme on the ancestry composition feature he scores the very lowest in the Italian component that I have seen for any pure Italian. He also scores quite high in the Middle Eastern and North African component but I know that there are at least four other Southern Italian results that I have seen that score higher in the Middle Eastern and North African component than he does. Here are his results below. These are all on the Speculative setting. I am only posting the scores where he scores some positive percentage in. I am not listing the components that he scores 0% in. Now from what I have seen so far in comparing him to the other Southern Italian (Calabrian and Sicilian) results that I have seen he has the lowest Italian component score of any of them. The next lowest I have seen are from the few Calabrians and Sicilians that also score high in the Middle Eastern and North African component. These are their Italian component scores. 53.2%, 55.7%, 59.2% and 59.9%. Now when it comes to the Middle Eastern and North African component scores for these same Calabrians and Sicilians they are 32.%, 29.6%, 27% and 20%. So based on all of this and his (my grandfather's results below) is it likely that my grandfather has some recent within the last 500 years foreign non-Southern Italian ancestry I wonder? What do others think here?


My Grandfather


71.5% European

Southern European

50.2% Italian
3.0% Balkan

13.4% Broadly Southern European

Northern European

0.6% Finnish

0.4% Broadly Northern European


<0.1% Ashkenazi


3.9% Broadly European


25.2% Middle Eastern and North African

22.9% Middle Eastern
0.2% North African

2.2% Broadly Middle Eastern and North African


3.3% Unassigned

J Man
09-17-2015, 10:24 PM
Bump.

Erlembaldo
09-17-2015, 11:26 PM
I would think that your grandfather comes from a very isolated part of Calabria and thus retains a significant amount of Neolithic DNA. Really the only people who came to Calabria in numbers in the past 500 years were Albanians and Greeks fleeing the Ottoman advance.

Interesting that he scores a small amount of Finnish too.

J Man
09-18-2015, 01:59 AM
I would think that your grandfather comes from a very isolated part of Calabria and thus retains a significant amount of Neolithic DNA. Really the only people who came to Calabria in numbers in the past 500 years were Albanians and Greeks fleeing the Ottoman advance.

Interesting that he scores a small amount of Finnish too.

Indeed that could be the case. My direct paternal line seems to have some sort of old Armenian connection based on STR marker matches but this would go back to Byzantine times most likely.

J Man
09-19-2015, 02:16 AM
Anyone else?

Lugus
09-19-2015, 06:28 AM
The answer is always geography and history. Southern Italy and Greece are the parts of Europe more easily accessible from the Levant, Asia Minor and North Africa. On the other hand Southern Italy was too far from Central Europe for the R1bs to get there, aside from the fact that it was already taken. The Middle Eastern component kept arriving at different times and for different reasons (Anatolians, Phoenicians, Greeks, slaves and immigrants in Roman times, etc.). Don't forget we're talking about times when the East was a source of civilization and economic power and the limes was meant to prevent North-South movements and not the other way around.

Sikeliot
09-19-2015, 06:42 AM
What is worth considering is why, given the Greek history in Calabria, Calabrese do not score much of any Baltic/NE European component but Greeks do?

Lugus
09-19-2015, 12:40 PM
This new paper from Busby et al. might shed more light on this issue:

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)00949-5

AJL
09-20-2015, 01:59 AM
What is worth considering is why, given the Greek history in Calabria, Calabrese do not score much of any Baltic/NE European component but Greeks do?

Probably due to later and slight but gradual influx of Slavs in Greece (via slavery or other means); or to the relatively small founding population of Calabria as compared to Greece; or to the exact part of Greece that the Greeks who inhabited Calabria came from. Or some combination of these.

Erlembaldo
09-23-2015, 02:16 PM
The answer is always geography and history. Southern Italy and Greece are the parts of Europe more easily accessible from the Levant, Asia Minor and North Africa. On the other hand Southern Italy was too far from Central Europe for the R1bs to get there, aside from the fact that it was already taken. The Middle Eastern component kept arriving at different times and for different reasons (Anatolians, Phoenicians, Greeks, slaves and immigrants in Roman times, etc.). Don't forget we're talking about times when the East was a source of civilization and economic power and the limes was meant to prevent North-South movements and not the other way around.

R1b is still the most frequently found haplogroup in southern Italy and Sicily, albeit found in smaller amounts than in the rest of the country.

Lugus
09-23-2015, 03:30 PM
R1b is still the most frequently found haplogroup in southern Italy and Sicily, albeit found in smaller amounts than in the rest of the country.

I have seen different maps and just today I found another one:

5995

From this paper: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

Anyway, it's clear that R1b loses the hegemony it has further North and West.

Sikeliot
09-23-2015, 05:08 PM
R1b is still the most frequently found haplogroup in southern Italy and Sicily, albeit found in smaller amounts than in the rest of the country.

This may be true, but when you consider that it makes up around 30%, the majority of haplogroups are not R1b and combined, J2, E1b1b, G make up most of the rest. The difference to Greece is that Greece has higher R1a and I2 than anywhere in southern Italy. Maybe E1b is higher, J2 lower also.

evon
09-23-2015, 06:06 PM
Here are some Italians I share with:

Northeastern Italian:


31.7% Italian
12.4% Balkan
25.1% Broadly Southern European
8.4% French & German
1.7% British & Irish
12.4% Broadly Northern European
0.6% Eastern European
7.7% Broadly European

Central/southern Italian:


85.1%Italian
2.7% Balkan
4.3% Broadly Southern European
0.7% British & Irish
1.9% Broadly Northern European
0.1% Ashkenazi
0.9% Broadly European
3.9% Middle Eastern & North African
3.8% Middle Eastern
0.1% Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
0.1% Sub-Saharan African
< 0.1% East African
0.1% Broadly Sub-Saharan African
0.3% Unassigned

Northwestern Italian:


62.0% Italian
1.9% Iberian
0.4% Balkan
16.2% Broadly Southern European
4.7% French & German
0.1% British & Irish
9.1% Broadly Northern European
0.2% Eastern European
4.1% Broadly European
0.6% Middle Eastern & North African
0.6% Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
0.5% East Asian & Native American
0.2% Yakut
0.2% Broadly East Asian
< 0.1% Native American
< 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American
0.2% Unassigned

North Central Italian:


68.0% Italian
4.5% Balkan
2.2% Iberian
0.3% Sardinian
14.5% Broadly Southern European
2.0% French & German
1.3% British & Irish
2.2% Broadly Northern European
1.9% Broadly European
2.7% Middle Eastern & North African
2.7% Middle Eastern
0.2% Unassigned

North Central Italian:


65.4% Italian
4.3% Balkan
4.0% Iberian
13.0% Broadly Southern European
3.3% Broadly Northern European
0.1% Ashkenazi
6.6% Broadly European
3.1% Middle Eastern & North African
2.8% Middle Eastern
0.2% Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
< 0.1% East Asian & Native American
< 0.1% Japanese
0.3% Unassigned

Italian (Northern? with Finnish % also):


67.2% Italian
3.4% Iberian
0.6% Balkan
21.3% Broadly Southern European
0.7% British & Irish
0.2% Finnish
1.0% Broadly Northern European
0.5% Eastern European
3.0% Broadly European
1.9% Middle Eastern & North African
1.9% Middle Eastern
0.1% Unassigned

vettor
09-23-2015, 06:09 PM
Here are some Italians I share with:

Northeastern Italian:


Central/southern Italian:


Northwestern Italian:


North Central Italian:


North Central Italian:


Italian (Northern? with Finnish % also):

where did you get these percentage numbers from?

my paternal and maternal lines are from northeast italy for the last 300 years as per paper records, my numbers are similar to your NE-Italy.........so I am curious

99.4% European

30.6% Italian
5.7% Iberian
4.8% Balkan
16.7% Broadly Southern European

9.6% French & German
6.2% British & Irish
18.0% Broadly Northern European
0.3% Ashkenazi
0.2% Eastern European
7.2% Broadly European

evon
09-23-2015, 06:18 PM
where did you get these percentage numbers from?

my paternal and maternal lines are from northeast italy for the last 300 years as per paper records, my numbers are similar to your NE-Italy.........so I am curious

99.4% European

30.6% Italian
5.7% Iberian
4.8% Balkan
16.7% Broadly Southern European

9.6% French & German
6.2% British & Irish
18.0% Broadly Northern European
0.3% Ashkenazi
0.2% Eastern European
7.2% Broadly European

DNA cousins and others I share with, I share with allot of people, probably more Italians then these, but I only listed those that had obvious Italian surnames. The North Eastern Italian is from Udine if I remember correctly...

Dimanto
09-23-2015, 08:01 PM
Here is one from Salerno :http://s20.postimg.org/ohcew7x1l/Campagna_AC_TA.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ohcew7x1l/) It is not an exclusively Calabrian/Sicilian occurence.

I don't know for sure but these high scores of ''Middle Eastern'' on 23andme could be explained due to the fact the Italian reference on 23andme are composed of both southerners and north Italians + some populations in the Middle Eastern reference that could have a partial overlap with southern Italians. If they'd split up both northern and southern Italians into 2 different clusters, take away the Turks and Cypriots from the the ''Middle Eastern'' cluster maybe the results will change (?) (i.e. higher Italian scores for both northern and southern Italians)

J Man
09-27-2015, 11:12 PM
where did you get these percentage numbers from?

my paternal and maternal lines are from northeast italy for the last 300 years as per paper records, my numbers are similar to your NE-Italy.........so I am curious

99.4% European

30.6% Italian
5.7% Iberian
4.8% Balkan
16.7% Broadly Southern European

9.6% French & German
6.2% British & Irish
18.0% Broadly Northern European
0.3% Ashkenazi
0.2% Eastern European
7.2% Broadly European

Are those your 23andme Ancestry Composition results on the Speculative setting?