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Bernard
09-18-2015, 10:09 AM
Christian Jeunesse, 2015, Les statues-menhir de Méditerranée Occidentale et les Steppes. Nouvelles perspectives. (https://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_M%C3%A9diterran%C3%A9e_occidentale)

alan
09-18-2015, 11:40 AM
That looks very interesting. Jean should be very interested in this.

Heber
09-18-2015, 02:14 PM
Christian Jeunesse, 2015, Les statues-menhir de Méditerranée Occidentale et les Steppes. Nouvelles perspectives. (https://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_M%C3%A9diterran%C3%A9e_occidentale)

This is an extraordinary paper and traces in fine detail the timeline and geographic extent from Maikop and Kemi Oba to Iberia and Tagus via Italy and Southern France of the stelae trail.
It supports Kochs proposal as described in "Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West.
https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory
I described it in more detail is a previous post.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=108540&viewfull=1#post108540

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/kemi-oba/

alan
09-18-2015, 02:35 PM
Read through that. So seems to be driving at a movement that would be around 3400BC west before the Yamnaya spilling into Old Europe c. 3000BC and linking it somehow to Maykop. Its an interesting article and makes some fairly convincing arguements for influences from the east. Problem from a genetic point of view is its not at all supported so far by ancient DNA, quite the opposite. However, the tiny sample of pre-beaker copper age people c. 3400-3000BC means it cannot be confidently refuted either. Another possibility is that we are looking at a largely balkans ENF group who had been influenced by steppes prior to Yamnaya before travelling west and could have carried a small minority of steppe y lines among an overwhelmingly Balkans ENF group.

alan
09-18-2015, 02:51 PM
Have been thinking for a while that the first wave from the steppe (suvorovo/ochre graves) was very small but its influence was large on local Balkan/Danube cultures so the area was full of cultures with vaguely steppic traits but probably genetically mostly local. One such cultures existed you could have had what are essentially farmer population moving west from the Balkans but with steppic cultural traits.

This paper though places it in the much more controversial Gimbutas 2nd wave which you dont really hear much support for these days - a wave falling chronologically in between Suvorovo/1st wave and Yamnaya. It links it with Maykop which is pre-Yamanaya but the stumbling block in this is there is no attested wave of Maykop or strongly Maykop derived people spilling into old Europe in pre-Yamnaya times. That is a major problem with this idea but a lot has yet to be clarrified in this period so who knows.

Ancient DNA would tend to support the idea that the copper age people in pre-beaker Europe west of the Balkans, all the way to Iberia were essentially genetically middle Neolithic farmers. So, if new people came., they seem to have been from very similar stock. Or at least centuries in the east of Old Europe had made them indistinguisable from the local farmers prior to any treck west.

The main get out clause is that the sample is small but if there were any steppic yDNA lines involved they were surely a small minority because all the pre-beaker copper age people from Italy to Iberia seem to be very much middle Neolithic farmers with no trace of steppic autosomal DNA and no certain cases of steppic y-lines but many y-lines that look essentially Old European/non-steppic. There is always wriggle room when the sample is small though.

alan
09-18-2015, 07:07 PM
surprised there are not more comments on this. Its a version of the stelae people model.

Jean M
09-18-2015, 07:24 PM
surprised there are not more comments on this. Its a version of the stelae people model.

I`m on holiday without my lap-top. Struggling with an alien keyboard just to say thanks to Bernard for the notification. Will read properely when I get back.

alan
09-18-2015, 07:28 PM
I`m on holiday without my lap-top. Struggling with an alien keyboard just to say thanks to Bernard for the notification. Will read properely when I get back.

Have a good holiday. I think you will find the paper very interesting.

Heber
09-18-2015, 07:37 PM
surprised there are not more comments on this. Its a version of the stelae people model.

Alan,

What I read from this paper is the following:

1) Origin in the Black Sea area

2) Specifically in Kemi Oba
5945
3) In the Maikop Culture
5946
4) Passage through Italy, Southern France, Iberia
5948
5) All the way to Alcalar (Portugal)
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

Distance and time frame is not an obstacle due to the "expansionist capacity" of this culture.
Pre Beaker Copper Age migration and not Neolithic farmers.
Includes Copper Dagger and Single Grave (Ventabren), Bell Beaker (Campaniforme) Culture.

My question is did these people reach Iberia in time to expand with Bell Beaker from Iberia and did they carry R1b?

alan
09-18-2015, 08:08 PM
This is an extraordinary paper and traces in fine detail the timeline and geographic extent from Maikop and Kemi Oba to Iberia and Tagus via Italy and Southern France of the stelae trail.
It supports Kochs proposal as described in "Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West.
https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory
I described it in more detail is a previous post.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=108540&viewfull=1#post108540

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/kemi-oba/

of itself the idea that people spread from or via the Balkans to spread developed copper working, mining and some other ideas is not new. You just have to look at the cline of copper working in southern Europe to see that some people must have moved west across southern Europe across the period 3500-3000BC before beaker existed and before Yamnaya spilled into old Europe.

What this paper does is ties advanced copper, certain metalwork preferences, pressure flaked tools/weapons, warrior type ethos seen in graves (Remedello etc) and stelae together as a phenomenon of c. 3400-3300BC onwards. Again, none of this is individually new and linking them together in various ways has been suggested before but it brings them together in slightly more detail on chronology.

What is more intriguing is it suggests links with Maykop and something connected to Gimbutas 2nd wave between Suvorovo and Yamnaya which does fit the chronology better than a Yamnaya link. However, AFAIK the 2nd wave is not generally accepted today in most schemes.

Archaeologically, this paper makes a good case for the diffusion of new ideas, technology, social change and probably people in small numbers c. 3400BC on across southern Europe from an origin points east. However, so far, from a small sample, we have no indication of steppe genes. This paper links it back to Maykop but we dont have ancient DNA from the latter yet. I personally do think that 4000-3000BC there were a lot of groups who were genetically essentially non-steppic but steppic influenced knocking about in the Balkans and adjacent and capable of spreading west.

alan
09-18-2015, 08:19 PM
Alan,

What I read from this paper is the following:

1) Origin in the Black Sea area

2) Specifically in Kemi Oba
5945
3) In the Maikop Culture
5946
4) Passage through Italy, Southern France, Iberia
5948
5) All the way to Alcalar (Portugal)
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

Distance and time frame is not an obstacle due to the "expansionist capacity" of this culture.
Pre Beaker Copper Age migration and not Neolithic farmers.
Includes Copper Dagger and Single Grave (Ventabren), Bell Beaker (Campaniforme) Culture.

My question is did these people reach Iberia in time to expand with Bell Beaker from Iberia and did they carry R1b?

well I would say chronologically at least part of this did reach Iberia in pre-beaker times. However, we have a few pre-beaker copper age people from Italy, southern France and Iberia in the timeframe 3400-2800BC and they all essentially seem to genetically be non-steppic farmer types in autosomal DNA and indeed yDNA except one doubtful case which can never be proven either way and cannot be used as evidence.

I think if you join all the dots, there is some evidence of small numbers of Balkans derived copper age groups with some steppic influences but essentially early farmers in a genetic sense spreading west very gradually c. 4000-3000BC.

Bernard
09-18-2015, 08:27 PM
Amazing are the 5 kurgans at Ventabren in Southern France dated between 3370 and 2925 BC. One of these graves had 3 steles.
5949

Bernard
09-19-2015, 07:26 AM
This is a photo of the Ventabren necropolis:
5956

Heber
09-19-2015, 04:07 PM
Here is a comprehensive PhD thesis on Iberian Stelae and Statue Menhirs:

"This PhD thesis attempts to provide a broad interpretative overview of prehistoric stelae and statue-menhirs on the Iberian Peninsula. It spans from the middle of the 6th Milennium to the 8th-7th centuries BC. The overall objectives of this thesis are: 1. Review current knowledge on prehistoric stelae and statue-menhirs in the Iberian Peninsula; 2. Assess previous interpretations that regard them as part of a unitary phenomenom; 3. Deepen our knowledge on the role of stelae and statue-menhirs in prehistoric social relations. In order to achieve these goals I draw on published work, and, in some cases on data gathered by myself, related to the engravings, stones, stratigraphical contexts, places and regional contexts of stelae and statue-menhirs. The analysis of the data adopts a contextual perspective, as it has a special focus on the formal and material relations in which stelae and statue-menhirs are involved at different scales."

http://eprints.ucm.es/11070/1/T32200.pdf

and another paper with good maps and graphics

http://eprints.ucm.es/11070/1/T32200.pdf

5962

alan
09-19-2015, 10:41 PM
Amazing are the 5 kurgans at Ventabren in Southern France dated between 3370 and 2925 BC. One of these graves had 3 steles.
5949

The combination of this plus the non-steppic ancient DNA from the same zone in this period does warn us against assuming that all material and social change or even movement of people from eastern Europe c. 3500-3000BC were steppic genetically. It seems (with the major proviso of the small size of the sample of ancient DNA) that spreads in that period may have been essentially farmers from further east spreading west. The Remedello and other ancient DNA evidence suggests that c. 3500-3000BC farmers with somewhat different and vaguely more steppe-like social structure elements could exist with no detectable steppe genes. I assume that the crucible of what you could call kurganised farmers lay in the Balkans and adjacent Danubian areas. Indeed it has long been suggested there are slightly or significantly kurganised farmer groups in that area in the pre-Yamnaya era with the new ideas originating from the small pre-Yamnaya Kurgan wave or waves. There has long been a suspicion that the spread of copper west is down to small movements from the Balkans c. 3500BC onwards. What ancient DNA seems to be indicating is copper and other vaguely Kurganesque traits did spread west with populations with very very little steppe genes if any.

Heber
09-20-2015, 08:42 PM
I understand Reich is preparing a paper on Indo-European based on Maikop samples. It should clarify the question of Maikop and the Stelae people. I suspect we will find R1b.

"Oxford University recently donated Maikop samples to the Reich Lab for a study focusing specifically on the Indo-European question."

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=102465&viewfull=1#post102465

On the western end of the Stelae trail VNSP and Zambujal appear to lead into Maritime Bell Beaker.

5974

https://www.academia.edu/4421461/Pre-Bell_Beaker_ware_from_Estremadura_Portugal_and_its _likely_influence_on_the_appearance_of_Maritime_Be ll_Beaker_ware

rms2
09-20-2015, 10:54 PM
I understand Reich is preparing a paper on Indo-European based on Maikop samples. It should clarify the question of Maikop and the Stelae people. I suspect we will find R1b.

"Oxford University recently donated Maikop samples to the Reich Lab for a study focusing specifically on the Indo-European question."

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=102465&viewfull=1#post102465

On the western end of the Stelae trail VNSP and Zambujal appear to lead into Maritime Bell Beaker.

5974

https://www.academia.edu/4421461/Pre-Bell_Beaker_ware_from_Estremadura_Portugal_and_its _likely_influence_on_the_appearance_of_Maritime_Be ll_Beaker_ware

There seems to be a lot to look forward to in 2015-2016. Could be an exciting time.

I hope it includes some ancient y-dna from Yamnaya's route west, up the Danube.

Jean M
09-28-2015, 08:43 PM
Another paper from the same book has gone up on Academia.edu: Viktor Trifonov, Representation, par similitude, de l’art megalithique dans le Caucase occidental, en Crimee et en Europe occidentale. In: Actes du 3e Colloque International sur la statuaire mégalithique, Saint-Pons-de-Thomières, 12-16 septembre 2012, Errance: Paris, 2015: 81-88: https://www.academia.edu/16271830/Trifonov_Viktor._Representation_par_similitude_de_ l_art_megalithique_dans_le_Caucase_occidental_en_C rimee_et_en_Europe_occidentale._In_Actes_du_3e_Col loque_International_sur_la_statuaire_m%C3%A9galith ique_Saint-Pons-de-Thomi%C3%A8res_12-16_septembre_2012_Errance_Paris_2015_81-88

There is an English abstract, but I can't cut and paste.