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J Man
09-18-2015, 09:59 PM
Ancient DNA results from the Saltovo-Mayaki culture! In Russian from the looks of it.


https://www.academia.edu/15713987/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9B._%D0 %92%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C_%D0%A8._%D0%92%D1%8D%D0%B9_% D0%9B._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE% D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%9C.%D0%92. _%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%94 .%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9B%D0%B8_%D0%A5._%D0%A2 %D1%83%D0%BD_%D0%A1._%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%8 0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84 %D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%B2_ %D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B5_% D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D 1%81%D1%8B_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0 %BE%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%92%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0 %BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B 9_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86% D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%95%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D 0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1% 87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 4%D1%8B_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%B0 %D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%81% D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0 %BE%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0% BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_._%D0%9C._%D0%98%D0%90_%D0%A0 %D0%90%D0%9D._2015


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

Humanist
09-18-2015, 10:09 PM
Ancient DNA results from the Saltovo-Mayaki culture! In Russian from the looks of it.


https://www.academia.edu/15713987/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9B._%D0 %92%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C_%D0%A8._%D0%92%D1%8D%D0%B9_% D0%9B._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE% D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%9C.%D0%92. _%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%94 .%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9B%D0%B8_%D0%A5._%D0%A2 %D1%83%D0%BD_%D0%A1._%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%8 0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84 %D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%B2_ %D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B5_% D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D 1%81%D1%8B_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0 %BE%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%92%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0 %BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B 9_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86% D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%95%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D 0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1% 87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 4%D1%8B_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%B0 %D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%81% D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0 %BE%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0% BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_._%D0%9C._%D0%98%D0%90_%D0%A0 %D0%90%D0%9D._2015


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

Sarmatians with J1 and Alans with R1a and G2a? Saltovo with R1a, J2a, and G.

lgmayka
09-18-2015, 10:56 PM
Here is the table of DNA results. The first four are labeled as Saltovo-Mayaki, the next two Sarmatian, and the last two Alan. R1a1a1b2a2 is presumably R-Z2124, as per ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html).

DMXX
09-18-2015, 11:04 PM
Very, very interesting...

Our resident J1 enthusiast RCO has been arguing for years in favour of J1 being represented by the Sarmatians based on his interpretation of modern phylogeny. Looks like there's definitely an aDNA basis to that proposition now!

RCO
09-18-2015, 11:32 PM
Very, very interesting...

Our resident J1 enthusiast RCO has been arguing for years in favour of J1 being represented by the Sarmatians based on his interpretation of modern phylogeny. Looks like there's definitely a basis to that proposition now!

Yes, that's a possibility because we have a group of rare basal J1 types with relatively close STR matches (2000 years) between some Caspian Gilaki-Northern Iranian haplotypes and Western Iberian- Portuguese Brazilians haplotypes and a possible connection could be the movement of some groups of Alans to Roman Lusitania and Gallaecia. Very curious indeed !

Rick
09-18-2015, 11:57 PM
There was a variety of J1 found in N England and S Scotland some years back. The group included surnames Graham, Jordan/Jardine, Brown, Dunwoody, among others if memory serves. Someone, probably on the rootsweb list, suggested it could be a legacy of Sarmatians sent to the region by the Romans. I wonder if these new-found Sarmatian J1s bear any resemblance to the British J1s.

Agamemnon
09-19-2015, 12:00 AM
J1 makes its first appearance in the aDNA record... That's long overdue, to say the least! J1's presence in these Sarmatian samples certainly strengthens RCO's observations, hopefully we'll soon know which subclade(s?) these J1 samples carried.


There was a variety of J1 found in N England and S Scotland some years back. The group included surnames Graham, Jordan/Jardine, Brown, Dunwoody, among others if memory serves. Someone, probably on the rootsweb list, suggested it could be a legacy of Sarmatians sent to the region by the Romans. I wonder if these new-found Sarmatian J1s bear any resemblance to the British J1s.

I'd be pretty surprised if the Jordan-Graham cluster had something to do with the Sarmatians, considering the fact that it belongs to a seemingly-Arabian subclade (L1253) of J1-YSC76, one of J1-L858's main branches... But hey, as long as we don't know which subclade the J1 Sarmatians carried, anything is possible I guess ;)

A more relevant question IMHO is "How did J1 end up in Iranian-speaking pastoralists?".

RCO
09-19-2015, 12:39 AM
I think some ancient J1 SNPs were born and always lived around the Caspian Sea so they were some of the original hunter-gathererers from that region. They were born there and have always been there, there's a close association between geography and J1 SNPs. I think there's a relation between some specific native J1 types and branches from Northern Iran and the Iranic pastoralists and probably they were always represented there as some of the first Proto-Indo-Iranians or Proto Indo-Europenas or at least they lived very close to them if they were not an integral part in the development of the language and culture around that region. Genetic genealogy is always full of surprises and the first public recovered ancient J1 would happen to be an ancient Sarmatian as could be guessed by the analysis of modern types of Iranian J1 groups.

Agamemnon
09-19-2015, 12:52 AM
I think some ancient J1 SNPs were born and always lived around the Caspian Sea so they were some of the original hunter-gathererers from that region. They were born there and have always been there, there's a close association between geography and J1 SNPs. I think there's a relation between some specific native J1 types and branches from Northern Iran and the Iranic pastoralists and probably they were always represented there as some of the first Proto-Indo-Iranians or Proto Indo-Europenas or at least they lived very close to them if they were not an integral part in the development of the language and culture around that region. Genetic genealogy is always full of surprises and the first public recovered ancient J1 would happen to be an ancient Sarmatian as could be guessed by the analysis of modern types of Iranian J1 groups.

Right now, jumping to conclusions regarding J1's origin would be unwise as we have no ancient data from the Near East enabling us to pinpoint J1's prehistorical whereabouts. We ought to keep in mind that J1 is about as old as R1b, if not slightly older, and might well be more diverse than R1b. Furthermore, I sincerely doubt the Proto-Indo-Iranians carried J1 in sizeable amounts (at least judging from the Sintashta & Andronovo samples from Allentoft et al.), rather it seems more likely to me that J1 was present in the BMAC and was subsequently absorbed by the incoming PIIs.

rms2
09-19-2015, 12:53 AM
Of course, only the Sarmatians and the R1a Alan are actually ancient. The rest are medieval.

R.Rocca
09-19-2015, 01:00 AM
Congrats to all my J1 friends and family. A relatively late date (for ancient DNA), but it is certainly a good start.

Coldmountains
09-19-2015, 01:14 AM
The Sarmatian samples are from Beslan Kurgans (Republic of North Ossetia) so J1 has probably a local Caucasian origin and was absorbed by Sarmatians or their ancestor. J1 is still quite frequent there. G2a and J1 among Sarmatians/Alans seem to prove the close connection between Caucasians and Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians, which was already earlier mentioned in older studies about the physical anthropology of Scythians. I am not such a fan of this kind of studies but in this case they seem to point in the right direction.


So, here goes the summary. We noted that the series from Ullybaganaly burials belongs to the North Caucasian circle of the forms, with typical dolichocrania and a narrow strongly profiled face. A large protruding nose. At the same time was found a high similarity of our series to the Scythian groups of the Dnieper basin and the Northern Pontic, and a superior similarity with the North Caucasian groups. There can be two probable explanations to this: the anthropological contact between Scythian and Kobanian peoples was so close, that the initial anthropological type of the Koban culture population simply dissolved in the mass of the Scythian peoples, or there was an inherent uniform anthropological layer in the nomadic population of steppe and the settled population of Northern Caucasus. The first suggestion seems improbable anthropologically and poorly supported historically. Really, from the data of archeology and testimony of the written sources the Scythian influence in the Northern Caucasus was limited to sporadic events of the military activity (Scythians crossed the Northern Caucasus during the military campaigns in the Near East). Naturally, in such conditions an active genetic exchange by conjugal ties could not discussed seriously (Krupnov, I960). Therefore we are inclined to think that in the Scythian time there was a uniform anthropological layer, with distinctive features of dolichocrany, high skull, a narrow strongly profiled face, and а large prominent nose.

Agamemnon
09-19-2015, 01:23 AM
The Sarmatian samples are from Beslan Kurgans (Republic of North Ossetia) so J1 has probably a local Caucasian origin and was absorbed by Sarmatians or their ancestor. J1 is still quite frequent there. G2a and J1 among Sarmatians/Alans seem to prove the close connection between Caucasians and Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians, which was already earlier mentioned in older studies about the physical anthropology of Scythians. I am not such a fan of this kind of studies but in this case they seem to point in the right direction.

These samples being J1-Z1842 certainly is a possibility considering the place where they were found along with the G2a which is seemingly local in origin... Nevertheless, I think J1-M365 (or a subclade thereof) remains a very strong contender, so we really won't be able to tell until we know which J1 subclade these Sarmatians carried in this case.
Anyway, this recent discovery will warrant a lot of celebration from my part tomorrow, J1 has finally made it into the ancient DNA record! :biggrin1:

Krefter
09-19-2015, 01:42 AM
Ancient mtDNA and Y DNA has proven that historical Indo Iranian speakers from Central Asia were descended of Sintashta and carried the same type of R1a(Z93-Z95). Anyonw who thinks R1a-M417 has a mysterious origin in Neolithic or Palaeolithic regfuge whatever is delusional. I hope Maju is reading this. No offense to him. He and others just need to understand we can't figure out much with modern Y DNA diversity, and R1a-M417 is an example.

Coldmountains
09-19-2015, 02:08 AM
These samples being J1-Z1842 certainly is a possibility considering the place where they were found along with the G2a which is seemingly local in origin... Nevertheless, I think J1-M365 (or a subclade thereof) remains a very strong contender, so we really won't be able to tell until we know which J1 subclade these Sarmatians carried in this case.
Anyway, this recent discovery will warrant a lot of celebration from my part tomorrow, J1 has finally made it into the ancient DNA record! :biggrin1:

It is cool that they found J1 finally and certainly in an unexpected time and place. My knowledge about J1 clades is very limited and i really need to look at that. Looking at the J1 subclades of Ossetians or Tatars should be useful in this case and give us an idea of the most likely J1 subclade carried by this Sarmatians. Most of the Sarmatian/Alan samples so far were rather in the southern part of the pontic-Caspian steppe so this samples are the most caucasian-shifted of ancient Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians. Other groups more in the north, east or west will probably significantly differ in Y-DNA and autosomal DNA but I expect a Caucasian-shift among all of this late Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians if not even among some more eastern steppe Iranians but in varying degrees.

Krefter
09-19-2015, 02:36 AM
mtDNA, Y DNA results in Spreadsheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PQF7vHBCA3JXMZ-CsaTseInGd0bdvJWfjg-Tk_s20U/edit#gid=0)

One of the Medival Saltovo-Mayaki individuals had mtDNA I4a and Y DNA R1a1a1b2a2. There's a over 3,00 year old Karasuk individual who had mtDNA I4a1 and Y DNA R1a1a1b. Out of about 1,000 ancient samples, that Karasuk guy is the only one with I4a1. Out of about 8,000 modern samples I4a1 pops up in: Spain, Italy, Sweden(high frequency, prob. founder effect), Russia, Greece, and Ireland. In all except Sweden, I4a1 is represented by only one sample.

For Sarmations: 2/2 Y DNA J1 I'm guessing points to West Asia. The mtDNA H1c points to Europe. I don't know much about subclades of K1a, but I think if K1a3 would point to West Asia but I'm not sure.
For Alans: R1a1a1b2a2-Z95 and G2a looks like mixed West Asian/Sintashta. I don't have high coverage X or W data. My only example of W1c from modern samples 8,000 is from Italy.
Saltovo-Mayaki: G, J2a, R1a1a1b2a2-Z95 mixed West Asian/Sintashta. I4a I think if anything points to Sintashta and D4m2 to Siberia.

In all ages it looks they were have mixed West Asian/European lineages. Would this make sense archaeology and history wise?

RCO
09-19-2015, 03:03 AM
In the Sarmatian J1 cases we can also consider all ancient J1 Northern branches like F1614, PF7261, Z1828, FGC6064(M365) as possible candidates because they have local or European cases or branches. They are all older than 14000 years. People moved to distant places and we can find some specific branches of the ancient J1 Iranians still in some parts of modern Northern Iran or in some modern Iranic speaking groups.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-19-2015, 03:11 AM
It would be interesting to compare these late Antiquity and Medieval results with earlier ages - so the Reich labs study of Majkop burials are keenly anticipated.. We know from Allentoft that J haplogroups began to spread during the Iron Age, presumably with Indo-Iranians.

So this certainly brings some question which need to be answered about the old axiom of an PIE - Indo-Iranian continuity in the steppe.

Krefter
09-19-2015, 03:14 AM
It would be interesting to compare these late Antiquity and Medieval results with earlier ages - so the Reich labs study of Majkop burials are keenly anticipated.. We know from Allentoft that J haplogroups began to spread during the Iron Age, presumably with Indo-Iranians.

So this certainly brings some question which need to be answered about the old axiom of an PIE - Indo-Iranian continuity in the steppe.

We don't have any Ancient Y DNA from where J2a peaks today; Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Caucasus. J2a in Haak isn't significant IMO, just coincidence and on the receiving end.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-19-2015, 03:20 AM
Looks like physical anthropologists were correct about arrival of Sarmatians and Scythians being new, and 'from the east', although they looked to Siberia and the Altai, resp.

IMO, they came from the outskirts of ancient Persia, where mounted horse warfare first developed c. 900 BC, according to Robert Drews.

Again , we need data from the North Pontic, although I think some of the older mtDNA studies do suggest population flux between the BA and IA..

lgmayka
09-19-2015, 04:02 AM
My only example of W1c from modern samples 8,000 is from Italy.
My project has several W1c (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults), although only one is clearly Polish.

Coldmountains
09-19-2015, 08:47 AM
Looks like physical anthropologists were correct about arrival of Sarmatians and Scythians being new, and 'from the east', although they looked to Siberia and the Altai, resp.

IMO, they came from the outskirts of ancient Persia, where mounted horse warfare first developed c. 900 BC, according to Robert Drews.

Again , we need data from the North Pontic, although I think some of the older mtDNA studies do suggest population flux between the BA and IA..

Sarmatians and Scythians were Eastern Iranians derived and heavily influenced by some more eastern Siberian-Iranian cultures but not by Persian and in my opinion certainly not originating from the outskirts of Persia. Physical anthropologist actually saw continuity between Scythians and older inhabitants of the Pontic -Caspian steppe (Timber Grave) and significant differences between Scythians of Europe and Saka of Central Asia. But physical anthropology is often unreliable and full of contradicting conclusions.

DMXX
09-19-2015, 10:32 AM
I agree with an earlier poster regarding an Iron Age diffusion of G2a, J1 and J2 onto the steppes.

We know J2 was found on the eastern side of the Iron Age steppes (Russia and the Altai, Allentoft et al.), so we now essentially have confirmation that the individuals residing on the steppes from 500 B.C. - 500 A.D. certainly weren't just R1a and R1b.


But physical anthropology is often unreliable and full of contradicting conclusions.

Pretty much. Typology specifically is quite problematic.

Having said that, some of the more objective analyses for the measurements (e.g. multivariate clustering) can produce useful hints regarding what one should expect. Such methods indicated Neolithic steppe cultures and Afanasievo represented a single robust cluster. aDNA has unequivocally confirmed this to be so.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-19-2015, 11:35 AM
Sarmatians and Scythians were Eastern Iranians derived and heavily influenced by some more eastern Siberian-Iranian cultures but not by Persian and in my opinion certainly not originating from the outskirts of Persia. Physical anthropologist actually saw continuity between Scythians and older inhabitants of the Pontic -Caspian steppe (Timber Grave) and significant differences between Scythians of Europe and Saka of Central Asia. But physical anthropology is often unreliable and full of contradicting conclusions.

Well your opinion is valid, but on this I'll go with the expert on Bronze Age military archaeology :)

The rise of equestrian warfare was on the peripheries of Assyria and Persia in Iranian speaking mobile grpups. Now , these might not be the same people who moved to the Black Sea . Time will tell.

But also, don't be surprised if we see diacontinuity between Yamnaya and later groups like Catacomb ....
We await the genomes

R.Rocca
09-19-2015, 12:24 PM
We know J2 was found on both ends of the Iron Age steppes (Russia and the Altai, Allentoft et al.), so we now essentially have confirmation that the individuals residing on the steppes from 500 B.C. - 500 A.D. certainly weren't just R1a and R1b.

Nobody should have been claiming exclusivity for any haplogroup in just about any area of Europe or Western Asia during the Iron Age. The geographical exclusivity of haplogroups likely ended sometime during the Early Bronze Age.

Agamemnon
09-19-2015, 12:32 PM
In the Sarmatian J1 cases we can also consider all ancient J1 Northern branches like F1614, PF7261, Z1828, FGC6064(M365) as possible candidates because they have local or European cases or branches. They are all older than 14000 years. People moved to distant places and we can find some specific branches of the ancient J1 Iranians still in some parts of modern Northern Iran or in some modern Iranic speaking groups.

I think you're quite right in highlighting the fact that most of these branches have TMRCAs dating back to ~14,000 ybp; Z1828 is quite old as well... That in itself highlights how diverse and complex J1 is, finding this haplogroup without knowing which branch we've stumbled upon is about as useful as finding R1b in Frankish remains (without knowing which subclade we're dealing with).


It is cool that they found J1 finally and certainly in an unexpected time and place. My knowledge about J1 clades is very limited and i really need to look at that. Looking at the J1 subclades of Ossetians or Tatars should be useful in this case and give us an idea of the most likely J1 subclade carried by this Sarmatians. Most of the Sarmatian/Alan samples so far were rather in the southern part of the pontic-Caspian steppe so this samples are the most caucasian-shifted of ancient Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians. Other groups more in the north, east or west will probably significantly differ in Y-DNA and autosomal DNA but I expect a Caucasian-shift among all of this late Pontic-Caspian steppe Iranians if not even among some more eastern steppe Iranians but in varying degrees.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say this is an unexpected time & place to find J1 as RCO had already proposed that the Alans might've spread some of J1's basal branches throughout Europe (including his own, J1-M365), and J1 peaks in the Northeast Caucasus after all (most of it is J1-Z1842 though, looks like a founder effect took root in that part of the world).

Generalissimo
09-19-2015, 12:48 PM
Btw, small detail, but the J2 Iron Age Russian sample in Allentoft et al. is also basically from the Altai region. It's from Kytmanovo where the Andronovo samples come from.

That's not to say there was no J2 on the European steppe at the time, but we don't yet have such a sample.

Coldmountains
09-19-2015, 01:31 PM
Btw, small detail, but the J2 Iron Age Russian sample in Allentoft et al. is also basically from the Altai region. It's from Kytmanovo where the Andronovo samples come from.

That's not to say there was no J2 on the European steppe at the time, but we don't yet have such a sample.

Did this Altaic sample carried some unusal genetic signal which could maybe point from where his J2a came from? If I correctly remember it this sample was just very siberian and northern-shifted. I think there were several directions from where J2/J1 and G entered the steppe. The Caucasus for Scythians and South Central Asia for Saka/Siberian Iron Age nomads. But I wonder how much north people similar to BMAC spread prior to Indo-Iranians. They were very early in the tarim basin as far as I know. The high developed ancient regions of South Central Asia very important for trade during pre-modern times and rich in urban centers with high developed craftsmanship attracted many of this nomads which mixed with them obviously and especially with the local elite. So I would be not surprised if Central Asian Saka carried significant amounts of L, J2/J1 and other south central Asian lines. Physical anthropologist also indicated that southern Saka were very close to modern Pamiri and rather west-Asian looking. But more northern groups would probably look very different.

Generalissimo
09-19-2015, 02:12 PM
Did this Altaic sample carried some unusal genetic signal which could maybe point from where his J2a came from? If I correctly remember it this sample was just very siberian and northern-shifted. I think there were several directions from where J2/J1 and G entered the steppe. The Caucasus for Scythians and South Central Asia for Saka/Siberian Iron Age nomads. But I wonder how much north people similar to BMAC spread prior to Indo-Iranians. They were very early in the tarim basin as far as I know. The high developed ancient regions of South Central Asia very important for trade during pre-modern times and rich in urban centers with high developed craftsmanship attracted many of this nomads which mixed with them obviously and especially with the local elite. So I would be not surprised if Central Asian Saka carried significant amounts of L, J2/J1 and other south central Asian lines. Physical anthropologist also indicated that southern Saka were very close to modern Pamiri and rather west-Asian looking. But more northern groups would probably look very different.

Those Iron Age Russian Altai samples are really mixed. The J2 sample RISE504 might well have some South Central Asia admix. It definitely has a lot of East Central Asian ancestry.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQWlBuRkVKQU83d0k/view?usp=sharing

Humanist
09-20-2015, 01:31 AM
From the Facebook J1 Y-DNA Project page:


According to one of the authors, this is just a preliminary thesis. The haplotypes will be published together with the final research paper.

DMXX
09-20-2015, 01:45 PM
Btw, small detail, but the J2 Iron Age Russian sample in Allentoft et al. is also basically from the Altai region. It's from Kytmanovo where the Andronovo samples come from.


I appreciate the correction on this, thank you. I've inadvertently misled readers by erroneously stating Y-DNA J2's found on opposite ends of the Iron Age steppe. Will make retroactive corrections on this later if time permits.

I also agree with Coldmountains on the likely sources for Y-DNA J2 in the Iron Age Altai (BMAC descendants incorporated into later Iranian steppe cultures) and in the Pontic-Caspian (diffusion from the Caucasus).

It's also possible the Altaian J2's might have come via Sintashta. Granted, all of Sintashta so far has been R1a1a, but the sample size is quite small (n<7?) and absence of evidence certainly isn't evidence of absence. BMAC pots are present in Sintashta, but that cannot serve as firm proof that it was accompanied by ethnic incorporation (referring to the "pots ≠ people" paradigm here).

parasar
09-20-2015, 04:20 PM
Here is the table of DNA results. The first four are labeled as Saltovo-Mayaki, the next two Sarmatian, and the last two Alan. R1a1a1b2a2 is presumably R-Z2124, as per ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html).

[It was found that the chronological framework of the II-IX centuries the male line of the population, is traditionally associated with the Sarmatian-Alan ethnic divisions] ... G2a-P15+, R1a1a1b2a-Z94+&Z95+, J1-M267+ and J2a-M410+

Is Z2122+ possible? Do we know the STRs?

R1a1a1b2a2 Z2124
• • • • • • • • • • R1a1a1b2a2a Z2123
• • • • • • • • • • R1a1a1b2a2b S4576/Z2122

parasar
09-20-2015, 10:57 PM
These samples being J1-Z1842 certainly is a possibility considering the place where they were found along with the G2a which is seemingly local in origin... Nevertheless, I think J1-M365 (or a subclade thereof) remains a very strong contender, so we really won't be able to tell until we know which J1 subclade these Sarmatians carried in this case.
Anyway, this recent discovery will warrant a lot of celebration from my part tomorrow, J1 has finally made it into the ancient DNA record! :biggrin1:

Not discounting the value of this J1 find in any way.
But, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf
ABO from Tenerife (2210 60 to 1720 60 BP), Gomera (1743 40 to 1493 40 BP), Hierro (1740 50 to 970 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 60 to 750 60 BP)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SnfiYPdwxeI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/mso6Joa8an8/s1600/canary.jpg

parasar
09-20-2015, 11:23 PM
mtDNA, Y DNA results in Spreadsheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PQF7vHBCA3JXMZ-CsaTseInGd0bdvJWfjg-Tk_s20U/edit#gid=0)

One of the Medival Saltovo-Mayaki individuals had mtDNA I4a and Y DNA R1a1a1b2a2. There's a over 3,00 year old Karasuk individual who had mtDNA I4a1 and Y DNA R1a1a1b. Out of about 1,000 ancient samples, that Karasuk guy is the only one with I4a1. Out of about 8,000 modern samples I4a1 pops up in: Spain, Italy, Sweden(high frequency, prob. founder effect), Russia, Greece, and Ireland. In all except Sweden, I4a1 is represented by only one sample.

For Sarmations: 2/2 Y DNA J1 I'm guessing points to West Asia. The mtDNA H1c points to Europe. I don't know much about subclades of K1a, but I think if K1a3 would point to West Asia but I'm not sure.
For Alans: R1a1a1b2a2-Z95 and G2a looks like mixed West Asian/Sintashta. I don't have high coverage X or W data. My only example of W1c from modern samples 8,000 is from Italy.
Saltovo-Mayaki: G, J2a, R1a1a1b2a2-Z95 mixed West Asian/Sintashta. I4a I think if anything points to Sintashta and D4m2 to Siberia.

In all ages it looks they were have mixed West Asian/European lineages. Would this make sense archaeology and history wise?

I4a1
Tamil
Dravidian ARA56 South India I4a1 129-223-304-311-391 199-204-250
http://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-015-1547-4/MediaObjects/439_2015_1547_MOESM1_ESM.xls

Agamemnon
09-21-2015, 12:04 AM
Not discounting the value of this J1 find any way.
But, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf
ABO from Tenerife (2210 60 to 1720 60 BP), Gomera (1743 40 to 1493 40 BP), Hierro (1740 50 to 970 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 60 to 750 60 BP)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SnfiYPdwxeI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/mso6Joa8an8/s1600/canary.jpg

Good point, J1 was found in pre-Hispanic Guanche samples, and even though this is a very interesting find, it isn't exactly what I'd call ancient data.

Tomenable
09-21-2015, 08:36 AM
Good point, J1 was found in pre-Hispanic Guanche samples

And R1b-M269 as well.

rms2
09-21-2015, 11:53 AM
And R1b-M269 as well.

Yes, and we went over that before. They aren't old enough to get too excited about. The earliest possible dates in the range of possible dates are Iron Age, as I recall.

Arame
09-22-2015, 05:43 AM
Physical anthropologist actually saw continuity between Scythians and older inhabitants of the Pontic -Caspian steppe (Timber Grave) and significant differences between Scythians of Europe and Saka of Central Asia. But physical anthropology is often unreliable and full of contradicting conclusions.

Coldmountains

The paper has one sentence about autosomal components.


Анализ аутосомных маркеров показал, что, хотя в генофонде изученных популяций фиксируются примеси разных направлений, в целом же можно говорить о том, что здесь обнаружены типичные европейские генотипы.
translation.

Despite having various admixtures, in general we can say that they have a typical European genotypes.

J Man
09-22-2015, 07:27 PM
I agree with an earlier poster regarding an Iron Age diffusion of G2a, J1 and J2 onto the steppes.

We know J2 was found on the eastern side of the Iron Age steppes (Russia and the Altai, Allentoft et al.), so we now essentially have confirmation that the individuals residing on the steppes from 500 B.C. - 500 A.D. certainly weren't just R1a and R1b.



Pretty much. Typology specifically is quite problematic.

Having said that, some of the more objective analyses for the measurements (e.g. multivariate clustering) can produce useful hints regarding what one should expect. Such methods indicated Neolithic steppe cultures and Afanasievo represented a single robust cluster. aDNA has unequivocally confirmed this to be so.

It does make one wonder if the two ancient J2 samples from the Allentoft et al. study from Iron Age Altai plus this new J2 sample from the Saltovo-Mayaki culture in Russia were of Turkic origins?

Krefter
09-22-2015, 07:34 PM
Coldmountains

The paper has one sentence about autosomal components.


translation.

Despite having various admixtures, in general we can say that they have a typical European genotypes.

They tested autosomal DNA? How many markers?

Arame
09-23-2015, 04:36 AM
Krefter

They don't specify the number of markers. In the Russian forum someone posted that the details with autosomes and deeper Y DNA SNPs will be presented later.

Also they have 126 aDNA samples from LBA, Iron age to medieval period. Samples are available not only from Steppe region but also from North Caucasus. How many of them have successful extraction they don't mention.

Arame
09-23-2015, 05:43 AM
OK it seems we confused the Beslan ( Sarmatians J1 ) location.

There is another small village Beslan (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_% D0%91%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD) ( 230 inhabitants) in Rostov region near town Salsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsk)

It makes sense because it is in the Steppe region not the Ossetia North Caucasus.

A new update.

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo

So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.

Tomenable
09-23-2015, 09:27 AM
Coming back to the issue of appearance of J1 haplogroup in aDNA record:

To be honest, 2 Sarmatian samples J1 are dated to ca. 1815-1700 years ago (200-300 AD).

And 5 ABO samples of J1 from the Canary Islands are dated to ca. 2270-690 years ago:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf

So they are not really less ancient than Sarmatian J1, but rather from roughly the same period.


J1 was found in pre-Hispanic Guanche samples, and even though this is a very interesting find, it isn't exactly what I'd call ancient data.

Well - it is about as ancient as G. Afanasiev's Sarmatian samples, perhaps slightly more or slightly less ancient.

vettor
09-23-2015, 06:06 PM
It does make one wonder if the two ancient J2 samples from the Allentoft et al. study from Iron Age Altai plus this new J2 sample from the Saltovo-Mayaki culture in Russia were of Turkic origins?

Please make clear what you mean turkic origin..............I assume you mean central-Asian ( where Turkic originates )

Tomenable
09-23-2015, 08:57 PM
And once again coming back to J-M267 in ancient DNA record:

It seems that we also have one ancient DNA sample of J1 haplogroup from Old Kingdom Egypt:

From "Ancient Egyptians and their DNA" thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2147-Ancient-Egyptians-and-their-DNA

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/43154-Egyptian-Old-Kingdom-and-New-Kingdom-Ancient-DNA-results?p=1178041&viewfull=1#post1178041


@beyoku lays out the following Old Kingdom (OK) and Middle Kingdom (MK) Y-SNP and mtDNA results:

Old Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3f
A-M13, L0a1
B-M150, L3d
E-M2, L3e5
E-M2, L2a1
E-M123, L5a1
E-M35, R0a
E-M41, L2a1
E-M41, L1b1a
E-M75, M1
E-M78, L4b
J-M267, L3i
R-M173, L2
T-M184, L0a

Middle Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3x
E-M75, L2a1
E-M78, L3e5
E-M78, M1a
E-M96, L4a
E-V6, L3
B-M112, L0b

Check also:

"Egyptian Ancient Dna from the Old and Middle Kingdoms": http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28925-Egyptian-Ancient-Dna-from-the-Old-and-Middle-Kingdoms

"Egyptian Old Kingdom and New Kingdom Ancient DNA results": http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=1

Agamemnon
09-23-2015, 09:38 PM
^^ This is just a rumour really, I wouldn't put much faith into it as long as we don't have the data.

J Man
09-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Please make clear what you mean turkic origin..............I assume you mean central-Asian ( where Turkic originates )

Turkic by language and culture.

Arame
09-24-2015, 09:26 AM
J Man

According to that paper the burials of people with East Asian ancestry ( most probably Khazars ) are different from the Alanian burials.
Turkish burials are in pit-graves while Alanians are either in catacombs or cremated. I think they will present some Turkish Khazarian genetic data also.

Tomenable
09-24-2015, 11:00 AM
Saltovo-Mayaki culture was not exclusively Turkic but multi-ethnic, it included ethnically Iranic Alans as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki


Saltovo-Mayaki is the name given by archaeologists to the early medieval culture of the Pontic steppe region roughly between the Don and the Dnieper Rivers. This culture was a melting pot of Onogur, Khazar, Pecheneg, Magyar, Alan, and Slavic influences. During the 9th century the Saltovo-Mayaki culture was closely associated with the Khazar Khaganate, and archaeological sites from this period are one way that historians track the geographic scope of Khazar influence.

Those could as well be descendants of Alans who got assimilated by Turks, or spoke Turkic as a lingua franca.

Alans themselves were a branch of Sarmatians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_North_Ossetia-Alania

ZephyrousMandaru
09-24-2015, 12:13 PM
The presence of J1 in the Samartians is quite impressive, however this doesn't in and of itself prove that J1 had a northern origin (Caucasus, Anatolia, Iran). It only slightly strengthens the Caucasus as a plausible hypothesis for its purported origin. We still have yet to uncover any aDNA remains in the Middle East, which could very well harbor even more ancient varieties of J1. But until then, J1's history and origins are far from established.

J Man
09-24-2015, 01:43 PM
J Man

According to that paper the burials of people with East Asian ancestry ( most probably Khazars ) are different from the Alanian burials.
Turkish burials are in pit-graves while Alanians are either in catacombs or cremated. I think they will present some Turkish Khazarian genetic data also.

So which type of burial is the J2a man in this study from?

Arame
09-24-2015, 02:10 PM
So which type of burial is the J2a man in this study from?

It is impossible to understand from the text. Just the number k10. K can mean katakomb in Russian but can also mean Kurgan. So I don't know.

Also a person with the nickname Fire on the Russian molgen (http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,8459.15.html) claims that he has viewed the STRs of Alanian and Sarmatians samples. In he's opinion they look like Iranian and West Indian. Also he thinks that the J1 doesn't look like Caucasian Z1828. But of course it is just a speculation on STRs.
They hope they will have more SNPs for better classification.



Совпаденцы Алан и Сарматов по STR маркерам из юго-западной Индии. и из югозападной границы Ирана
по мтднк Мазендеран и Кавказ


Нет, по маркерам не похож на Z1828, но самое важное сделать дополнительно снипы, так как по STRмаркерам можно ошибаться

parasar
09-24-2015, 02:20 PM
It is impossible to understand from the text. Just the number k10. K can mean katakomb in Russian but can also mean Kurgan. So I don't know.

Also a person with the nickname Fire on the Russian molgen (http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,8459.15.html) claims that he has viewed the STRs of Alanian and Sarmatians samples. In he's opinion they look like Iranian and West Indian. Also he thinks that the J1 doesn't look like Caucasian Z1828. But of course it is just a speculation on STRs.
They hope they will have more SNPs for better classification.

Has Fire reviewed the STRs for the Z95/Z2124 samples too? If so, are DYS464, DYS456, DYS458 covered and repeats known?

parasar
09-24-2015, 02:34 PM
Has Fire reviewed the STRs for the Z95/Z2124 samples too? If so, are DYS464, DYS456, DYS458 covered and repeats known?

Google translated. Could a Russian speaker clarify this translation.
Thanks.
Fire:

I do not yet have data on SNP Z2124 Alan
We know that part of Alan Z94 and Z95 plus plus
The only full sovpadenets Alan negative on the Z2123
and has the SNIP
Z94 Plus
And these negative
CTS3605-, L657-, F2997-, F1345- CTS8448-, CTS6-, CTS3412-, Z2123-,




Alan and Sarmatians on the STR markers of the south-western India and from the south-western border of Iran
Does Fire mean south-eastern?

Arame
09-25-2015, 04:39 AM
parasar

He says that the only modern full overlap is negative Z2123- and Z94+

For the border I will ask him.

Arame
09-25-2015, 02:08 PM
Parasar

Fire says south west border of Iran. Also from Kuwait.