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Krefter
10-01-2015, 12:50 AM
I found a French video about Loschbour-man titled "The Male of Loschbour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUnh_X3jH0w)" from a few years ago and about "The Female of Loschbour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cmlovynSh4)" from this year. If there are any French-speakers reading please translate. It's interesting to see an attempt to reconstruct the world that Loschbour and his relatives lived in.

Recap:"Loschbour's" genome is the main reference of "WHG" people who are documented in Ancient DNA to have lived from Spain to Hungary 8,000 year ago, but probably lived in most of Europe and farther east than Anatolia. "WHG" is an accurate genetic category for a people(not ethnic group, untitled by genes) who contributed significant ancestry to all West Eurasians but don't exist in their pure form anymore. Ultimately they are probably mix of the first human settlers of West Eurasia and North Asia.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6108&stc=1http://www.lameuse.be/sites/default/files/imagecache/pagallery_450x300/2014/09/18/505257274_B973600377Z.1_20140918191216_000_GCN3574 8Q.2-0.jpg

J Man
10-01-2015, 03:10 AM
So it is possible that WHG like people existed into Anatolia and parts of the Northern Near East possibly. Maybe they represent the pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer elements that was assimilated into the very early Neolithic farming groups that first expanded out of the Levant during the early Neolithic.

Krefter
10-01-2015, 04:06 AM
So it is possible that WHG like people existed into Anatolia and parts of the Northern Near East possibly. Maybe they represent the pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer elements that was assimilated into the very early Neolithic farming groups that first expanded out of the Levant during the early Neolithic.

Yes because West Asians have lots of WHG-related ancestry to. Being hunter gatherers doesn't define WHG in West Asia like it did in Europe. There could have been heavily Basal Eurasian people who were hunter gatherers that Basal Eurasian-rich farmers encountered. In Europe WHG groups could have become farmers, EEF groups borrowing cultural-traits from WHGs, etc. There's a simplistic view on Farmer-hunter gatherer relations.

It'll be interesting to see how all the WHG groups ranging from Ireland to Mesopotamia were related and who their common ancestor is. Differences must have developed from being isolated for 1,000s or 10,000s of years. An Abstract recently confirmed 11,000 years ago people in Hungary and Switzerland were WHG.

Bernard
10-01-2015, 06:47 AM
If there are any French-speakers reading please translate. It's interesting to see an attempt to reconstruct the world that Loschbour and his relatives lived in.

There is nothing about DNA for the woman of Loschbour. It is about a cremation dated between 7000 and 6700 BC. There are some traces of incisions on the skull, maybe a ritual about removing the scalp. It is the oldest burial in Luxembourg.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2015, 10:06 AM
Yes because West Asians have lots of WHG-related ancestry to. Being hunter gatherers doesn't define WHG in West Asia like it did in Europe. There could have been heavily Basal Eurasian people who were hunter gatherers that Basal Eurasian-rich farmers encountered. In Europe WHG groups could have become farmers, EEF groups borrowing cultural-traits from WHGs, etc. There's a simplistic view on Farmer-hunter gatherer relations.

It'll be interesting to see how all the WHG groups ranging from Ireland to Mesopotamia were related and who their common ancestor is. Differences must have developed from being isolated for 1,000s or 10,000s of years. An Abstract recently confirmed 11,000 years ago people in Hungary and Switzerland were WHG.

You mean common ancestors. My understanding is that, unlike haploid markers (which descend in simple, linear manner), autosomal groupings like 'WHG' are probably the result of several groups admixed in a rhizomic manner, drifted during the LGM, etc
I very much doubt "WHG" extended to Mesopotamia, although its precursor might have existed there, and probably did.

ADW_1981
10-01-2015, 12:53 PM
Let's wait for the data from NW Anatolia to draw any conclusions. People who lived in Anatolia were themselves hunter-gatherers prior to the discovery of farming. The presence of "new" ancestry in Europe around 6500 BC is due to immigration from the Middle East. The reason for the distinctness in due to thousands of years of isolation between Anatolia and northern Eurasia. The formation of "EEF", if you will is from the absorption of some local European hunter gatherer bands along the travels of the Middle Eastern newcomers in Europe to places like Stuttgart. It is no surprise that the earliest farmers show the least amount of admixture with local Europeans, and the later ones are quite mixed with local foragers.

Agamemnon
10-01-2015, 03:11 PM
There is nothing about DNA for the woman of Loschbour. It is about a cremation dated between 7000 and 6700 BC. There are some traces of incisions on the skull, maybe a ritual about removing the scalp. It is the oldest burial in Luxembourg.

Indeed, IMO the authors were too quick to dismiss cannibalism, in this case since this practice is strikingly similar to ritual endocannibalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism) as practiced by the Fore of Papua New Guinea (who used to scalp their dead relatives in order to extract the brain prior to cremation).

Krefter
10-01-2015, 03:24 PM
Indeed, IMO the authors were too quick to dismiss cannibalism, in this case since this practice is strikingly similar to ritual endocannibalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism) as practiced by the Fore of Papua New Guinea (who used to scalp their dead relatives in order to extract the brain prior to cremation).

That makes sense. She lived in a primitive and depressing world. Only small parts of Loschbour-Woman's skull were preserved. This is why Loschbour-man has a very differnt facial-structure than her reconstruction.

parasar
10-01-2015, 05:26 PM
That makes sense. She lived in a primitive and depressing world. Only small parts of Loschbour-Woman's skull were preserved. This is why Loschbour-man has a very differnt facial-structure than her reconstruction.

The female reconstruction does not have the prominent brow ridge seen on the male.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_BZZam1jlk/Urwk1uI31XI/AAAAAAAACVM/_LI7YcKEdZU/s1600/Lochsbourskull.png

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6108&stc=1

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2015, 11:34 PM
Let's wait for the data from NW Anatolia to draw any conclusions. People who lived in Anatolia were themselves hunter-gatherers prior to the discovery of farming. The presence of "new" ancestry in Europe around 6500 BC is due to immigration from the Middle East. The reason for the distinctness in due to thousands of years of isolation between Anatolia and northern Eurasia. The formation of "EEF", if you will is from the absorption of some local European hunter gatherer bands along the travels of the Middle Eastern newcomers in Europe to places like Stuttgart. It is no surprise that the earliest farmers show the least amount of admixture with local Europeans, and the later ones are quite mixed with local foragers.


"People in Anatolia were foragers before farming". Indeed they were. I'd bet they were very close to "WHG" based on similarities to the Balkan Epi-Gravettian. Moreover, they were well separated to the proto-Natufians from the levant - geographically and culturally.

'The formation of "EEF", if you will is from the absorption of some local European hunter gatherer bands along the travels of the Middle Eastern newcomers in Europe to places like Stuttgart. It is no surprise that the earliest farmers show the least amount of admixture with local Europeans, and the later ones are quite mixed with local foragers"

No doubt. The question is where this WHG was picked up. The mutterings here and there are it was mostly from Anatolia itself, and the Balkans, and less so from central Europe !