PDA

View Full Version : R1b-L21 Top-Layer and Misc Subclades SNP Pack



Mikewww
10-02-2015, 08:54 PM
The new FTDNA R1b-L21 SNP Pack is best described as the R1b-L21 Top-Layer and Misc Subclades SNP Pack. You could think of it as a backbone or orientation panel but it is much more of a stocky, short bush than a long backbone. This Pack is the early branching of L21, DF13, DF63, etc. A couple experimental SNPs, i.e. ZZ10, are thrown in. People with haplogroup labels R-L21, R-DF13 and R-Z2542 should definitely consider this.

The L21 Pack has bridge (pointer) SNPs to other larger SNP Packs of DF13, but there is a bonus for the smaller subclades.

Let's look at what the L21 Pack is NOT. It only has pointers or bridges to the following Packs available from FTDNA. They are the larger subclades of DF13 and the below Packs are specialized for people in these large subclades.

R1b-CTS4466 (Irish II/South types)
R1b-DF41 (CTS2501 & includes Royal Stewarts)
R1b-L1065 (CTS6838/CTS7030 & Scots Modal types)
R1b-L513 (11-13 Combo types)
R1b-M222 (Northwest Irish/Irish I types/Niall's badges)
R1b-Z253 (includes Irish III, Irish IV/Continental types)
R1b-Z255 (Irish Sea/Leinster Modal types & includes L159.2)
R1b-Z3000 (Clan Colla DYS425=null types)

One way to to look at the R1b-L21 SNP Pack is to consider it is everything else and the kitchen sink. If you compare the above already existing SNP Packs with the L21 Pack you see some groups are missing, though:

R1b-DF21 except Z3000
R1b-DF49 except M222

It doesn't take much to figure out that those two SNP Packs must be on their way to us also.

Now, back to what's in the R1b-L21 Top-Layer & Misc. SNP Pack. Besides the top layers, we see some smaller but good sized subclades with surprising depth of coverage. They include:

R1b-CTS3386, R1b-Z251, R1b-DF63, R1b-FGC5494, R1b-S1026, R1b-FGC11134 except CTS4466, R-MC14 and more.

In other words, not just those SNPs immediately above are included in the R1b-L21 Pack but several layers of SNPs underneath them. In a way, people in these smaller subclades get a free ride. Those smaller subclades will get well tested by a lot of people.

NGS testing (i.e. Big Y or FGC Elite) is still the preferable so you can discover your own line of SNPs.

However, this kind of SNP Pack is much more affordable. The R1b-L21 SNP Pack is a big pack with over 150 SNPs. It's $99 during their introductory first run and should go up to $119 when the first run is filled.

Mikewww
10-08-2015, 03:19 PM
...
R1b-DF21 except Z3000
... .
I think this is the next big competitive focus as FTDNA has been working on this. I see word is getting out as YSEQ just updated their DF21 panel. The competition is great. I was worried that the U106 might get too much attention but all of this is helping us in L21. ( :) just joking, I want to see the U106 guys have lot's of choices too.)

The best news is that L21ers are smart people. They are getting it that NGS testing really is the way to go (if you have the $). We have a new burst of Big Y orders with this $100 off promotion. I want to say "Remember the Alamo" but it is "Remember Lewis and Clark", the true explorers.

swid
10-08-2015, 04:49 PM
Out of curiosity, how many L21 SNP Pack orders by people in the L21 project made it into batch 644?

gogogenes
11-02-2015, 08:58 PM
I see that batch 644 now has an expectation date: Nov. 18 - Dec. 2.

On a side note, as Murphy's law would have it, after seven years of waiting for one of my uncle's matches to test beyond L21, his closest match (and probable surname match) shows up as DF63 on the same day that the batch expectation date was posted. At least I'll get confirmation and find out his CTS6919 status.

Mikewww
11-06-2015, 12:21 AM
Please report any problems you see in the early testing here.
We have about 25 or so results in. I haven't see anything that looks out of whack yet but we will probably have some need for reruns and perhaps a discarded SNP or two.

gogogenes
11-06-2015, 01:29 AM
I see that batch 644 now has an expectation date: Nov. 18 - Dec. 2.

On a side note, as Murphy's law would have it, after seven years of waiting for one of my uncle's matches to test beyond L21, his closest match (and probable surname match) shows up as DF63 on the same day that the batch expectation date was posted. At least I'll get confirmation and find out his CTS6919 status.

My uncle's results are back already and as it turns out a great value as he has tested four levels beyond DF63!

Mikewww
11-06-2015, 03:52 PM
My uncle's results are back already and as it turns out a great value as he has tested four levels beyond DF63!
Both Z251 and DF63 are well covered in the L21 pack. They, along with FGC5494, S1026, MC14, CTS3386, etc. are the "Misc." subclades. That doesn't sound so good, but they are essentially getting a "free ride" so a lot of people will get these SNPs exercised. We are finding the inclusion of FGC5494 in the M343 Backbone Pack as been very good for turning up people. FGC5494 may be larger than we thought.... that's why we test, to find out what we didn't know.

Mikewww
12-08-2015, 03:03 AM
Both Z251 and DF63 are well covered in the L21 pack. They, along with FGC5494, S1026, MC14, CTS3386, etc. are the "Misc." subclades. That doesn't sound so good, but they are essentially getting a "free ride" so a lot of people will get these SNPs exercised. We are finding the inclusion of FGC5494 in the M343 Backbone Pack as been very good for turning up people. FGC5494 may be larger than we thought.... that's why we test, to find out what we didn't know.

A bunch of R1b-L21 SNP Pack results came in. This will be particularly good for the smaller subclades as the L21 pack hits them pretty hard. I see new folks in A5846, CTS3386, BY2868, FGC35995, S1026, S1051, S16264, CTS1751, FGC5494, DF63 and Z251.

DF49xM222 had a good day but FGC5494 seems to be the subclade that won't stop growing. Once upon a time it was a rejected SNP. However, I think Z251 may be the winner for the day.

This will give Richard S plenty to do.

Huntergatherer1066
12-08-2015, 03:30 AM
My Nutter friend's results came in, Z253+. I don't see any irregularities at all, with ZZ10_1 and ZZ10_2 being positive as would be expected.

jova
12-08-2015, 04:32 AM
my L21 SNP pack results came in today, was part of Batch 645

Z251 and Z18092+

WOLFF éric
12-11-2015, 08:57 AM
A bunch of R1b-L21 SNP Pack results came in. This will be particularly good for the smaller subclades as the L21 pack hits them pretty hard. I see new folks in A5846, CTS3386, BY2868, FGC35995, S1026, S1051, S16264, CTS1751, FGC5494, DF63 and Z251.

L21 SNP pack result positiv for FGC35995/Y14240 (and FGC35996/Y14049 too by YFull and YSEQ) any informations ?

WOLFF éric
12-11-2015, 08:59 AM
A bunch of R1b-L21 SNP Pack results came in. This will be particularly good for the smaller subclades as the L21 pack hits them pretty hard. I see new folks in A5846, CTS3386, BY2868, FGC35995, S1026, S1051, S16264, CTS1751, FGC5494, DF63 and Z251.

L21 SNP pack result positiv for FGC35995/Y14240 (and FGC35996/Y14049 too by YFull and YSEQ) any informations ?

FunkyWanderer
12-11-2015, 01:20 PM
I did the L21 Snp pack, and got the results this week. I was R-DF13 and after the Snp pack, I'm still the same R-DF13.

Mac von Frankfurt
12-11-2015, 02:42 PM
I did the L21 Snp pack, and got the results this week. I was R-DF13 and after the Snp pack, I'm still the same R-DF13.

Packs and Panels only test for known public SNPs so some men like us will fall through the holes in the panel. I don't have any statistical support for this theory but it seems L21 men from the continent tend to fall through more often because fewer of them have tested deeply so that part of the tree is not well developed. I decided to get the most comprehensive test I could and try to define my own twig hoping others will follow.

Mikewww
12-11-2015, 05:03 PM
...
Let's look at what the L21 Pack is NOT. It only has pointers or bridges to the following Packs available from FTDNA. They are the larger subclades of DF13 and the below Packs are specialized for people in these large subclades.

R1b-CTS4466 (Irish II/South types)
R1b-DF41 (CTS2501 & includes Royal Stewarts)
R1b-L1065 (CTS6838/CTS7030 & Scots Modal types)
R1b-L513 (11-13 Combo types)
R1b-M222 (Northwest Irish/Irish I types/Niall's badges)
R1b-Z253 (includes Irish III, Irish IV/Continental types)
R1b-Z255 (Irish Sea/Leinster Modal types & includes L159.2)
R1b-Z3000 (Clan Colla DYS425=null types)

One way to to look at the R1b-L21 SNP Pack is to consider it is everything else and the kitchen sink. If you compare the above already existing SNP Packs with the L21 Pack you see some groups are missing, though:

R1b-DF21 except Z3000
R1b-DF49 except M222

It doesn't take much to figure out that those two SNP Packs must be on their way to us also.....

There is an R1b-DF49xM222 SNP Pack now which includes DF23xM222 and other early branches such as the Ui Maine cluster and many of our favorite ZP SNPs.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=8

There is also an R1b-Z246 SNP Pack. Z246 is a large part of DF21 and includes DF25, DF5, etc.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=58

There is a gap still outstanding - the rest of DF21 beyond Z246 and Z3000. We can expect something to come for the Little Scots folks, P314 folks, etc.

oneillabu
12-11-2015, 07:34 PM
There is an R1b-DF49xM222 SNP Pack now which includes DF23xM222 and other early branches such as the Ui Maine cluster and many of our favorite ZP SNPs.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=8

There is also an R1b-Z246 SNP Pack. Z246 is a large part of DF21 and includes DF25, DF5, etc.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=58

There is a gap still outstanding - the rest of DF21 beyond Z246 and Z3000. We can expect something to come for the Little Scots folks, P314 folks, etc.

Does that include the 3000 year old novel snp S5488?

Janet winans
12-11-2015, 07:39 PM
Hello,would you have information on R1b1b2a1a2f?I appreciate any information on this..trying to understand all of this..Thank You..Janet

rms2
12-11-2015, 07:48 PM
Hello,would you have information on R1b1b2a1a2f?I appreciate any information on this..trying to understand all of this..Thank You..Janet

I believe that is 23andMe-speak for R1b-L21. Here is a pretty decent modern distribution map for R1b-L21. Hope it helps a little.

6872

Janet winans
12-11-2015, 08:38 PM
Thank you very much..

Agamemnon
12-11-2015, 09:17 PM
Yup, 23andMe still uses ISOGG's 2009 nomenclature (http://isogg.org/tree/2009/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html), so R1b1b2a1a2f is R1b-L21.

Rory Cain
12-17-2015, 10:46 PM
There is a gap still outstanding - the rest of DF21 beyond Z246 and Z3000. We can expect something to come for the Little Scots folks, P314 folks, etc.

Gerard Corcoran and Karen Rowan showed what enthusiastic amateurs can do by influencing FTDNA to add S5456 and it's subclade FGC11932 to the Ytree. This was really helpful as there are just so many amendments demanding attention at present, any assistance is gratefully received.
Alex Williamson believes S5456 could be added to FGC3213 as a combined SNP Pack. Gerard and Karen have helped bring S5456 to FTDNA's attention. Way to go!

Mikewww
12-18-2015, 11:53 PM
The combination of long STR haplotypes to go with SNP discovery and research has been capped off with widespread testing with the new R1b-L21 SNP Pack. The results are in and we have nearly done in the unclustered and undifferentiated folks.

The currently posted R1b-L21_Haplotypes file has 13,009 67 STR haplotypes and 4,480 111 STR haplotypes. Of the 13,009 67 STR haplotypes, all but 894 are SNP confirmed something other than L21* or DF13* or in reasonable STR based varieties that have SNP confirmed subclades and are not L21* and not DF13*.

That means that at least 93% of us are in downstream subclades of L21 or DF13.

I think we've crushed the asterisk ("*"). Great work by all.

Rory Cain
12-19-2015, 06:45 AM
Great work indeed. Now to break up the log-jam downstream of DF13. ZZ10 was a great start. Am I right that it takes a Canadian to break up a log-jam and that ZZ10 was a rejected SNP rescued from the rapids by Alex Williamson, who used it to good effect?

timkeeton
01-07-2016, 09:47 PM
Received my results back from R-L21 SNP Pack batch 654: R-Z253+

A1078-, A1101-, A1105-, A1120-, A1148-, A1149-, A1308-, A1772-, A2121-, A228-, A237-, A241-, A286-, A5381-, A551-, A555-, A5843-, A5845-, A5846-, A5917-, A6078-, A6138-, A7254-, A7297-, A7298-, A7302-, A7806-, A7810-, A7812-, A897-, A92-, A959-, A967-, A970-, BY118-, BY246-, BY2583-, BY2601-, BY2604-, BY2666-, BY2723-, BY2868-, BY2899-, BY2916-, BY2972-, BY3070-, BY317-, BY3226-, BY3227-, BY3228-, BY3229-, BY3230-, BY561-, BY575-, BY592-, BY595-, BY674-, BY676-, BY701-, BY747-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS1864-, CTS2457-, CTS310-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS5454-, CTS6919-, CTS9686-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, F4006-, FGC10047-, FGC11134-, FGC11293-, FGC11963-, FGC11986-, FGC13300-, FGC13304-, FGC13758-, FGC13899-, FGC17164-, FGC18030-, FGC18229-, FGC18230-, FGC19319-, FGC2913-, FGC30632-, FGC32861-, FGC34569-, FGC35995-, FGC36422-, FGC436-, FGC5494-, FGC5511-, FGC5512-, FGC5561-, FGC9655-, L1065-, L1444-, L21+, L226-, L371-, L513-, L555-, L583-, L679-, L96-, M222-, MC14-, S1021-, S1026-, S1050-, S1051-, S1088-, S11556-, S12547-, S16264-, S19268-, S19558-, S9294-, S9793-, Y9091-, Y9096-, YFS444735-, Z16245-, Z16246-, Z16250-, Z16500-, Z16502-, Z16506-, Z16886-, Z16891-, Z16910-, Z16943-, Z16944-, Z17553-, Z17653-, Z17901-, Z17967-, Z17971-, Z17992-, Z18092-, Z18108-, Z18600-, Z19670-, Z2185-, Z246-, Z251-, Z253+, Z2542+, Z255-, Z3000-, ZS3152-, ZZ10_1+, ZZ10_2+

Rory Cain
01-24-2016, 09:59 PM
One way to to look at the R1b-L21 SNP Pack is to consider it is everything else and the kitchen sink. If you compare the above already existing SNP Packs with the L21 Pack you see some groups are missing, though:

R1b-DF21 except Z3000
R1b-DF49 except M222

It doesn't take much to figure out that those two SNP Packs must be on their way to us also.

Now, back to what's in the R1b-L21 Top-Layer & Misc. SNP Pack. Besides the top layers, we see some smaller but good sized subclades with surprising depth of coverage. They include:

R1b-CTS3386, R1b-Z251, R1b-DF63, R1b-FGC5494, R1b-S1026, R1b-FGC11134 except CTS4466, R-MC14 and more.

In other words, not just those SNPs immediately above are included in the R1b-L21 Pack but several layers of SNPs underneath them. In a way, people in these smaller subclades get a free ride. Those smaller subclades will get well tested by a lot of people.

NGS testing (i.e. Big Y or FGC Elite) is still the preferable so you can discover your own line of SNPs.

However, this kind of SNP Pack is much more affordable. The R1b-L21 SNP Pack is a big pack with over 150 SNPs. It's $99 during their introductory first run and should go up to $119 when the first run is filled.

Jeff Hatcher received his L21 SNP Pack results. It delivered DF21+, but otherwise left him in the same situation he was in - taking shots in the dark via one-by-one- Sanger tests at $39 per shot. It remains a process of eliminatin for him. The only sub-clades of DF21 that the L21 Pack eliminated were Z3000 and Z246. But one can still be S971+ even if Z3000-, and one can also be FGC3903+ even if one is Z246-. And we know that Geno Z246- results were wrong, so that creates uncertainty about Jeff's Z246- being correct. He has since tested S5488- by one-at-a-time testing that SNP Packs are supposed to eliminate.

Mikewww
01-24-2016, 10:19 PM
Jeff Hatcher received his L21 SNP Pack results. It delivered DF21+, but otherwise left him in the same situation he was in - taking shots in the dark via one-by-one- Sanger tests at $39 per shot. It remains a process of eliminatin for him. The only sub-clades of DF21 that the L21 Pack eliminated were Z3000 and Z246. But one can still be S971+ even if Z3000-, and one can also be FGC3903+ even if one is Z246-. And we know that Geno Z246- results were wrong, so that creates uncertainty about Jeff's Z246- being correct. He has since tested S5488- by one-at-a-time testing that SNP Packs are supposed to eliminate.
If someone can wait, there are supposed to be at least two more packs for DF21 and then it will have complete coverage.

I think it appears Z246 is problematic. If so, DF25 needs to be in the L21 top-layer pack and in the M343 Backbone pack. I'm going push updates on those packs quickly, but FTDNA is slow. I'm pretty sure S971 is included in one of the last two DF21 packs (for full coverage).

Mikewww
01-24-2016, 10:25 PM
If someone can wait, there are supposed to be at least two more packs for DF21 and then it will have complete coverage.

I think it appears Z246 is problematic. If so, DF25 needs to be in the L21 top-layer pack and in the M343 Backbone pack. I'm going push updates on those packs quickly, but FTDNA is slow. I'm pretty sure S971 is included in one of the last two DF21 packs (for full coverage).

There was just a posting on the R1b L21 yahoo group that someone received a haplogroup label R-S6000. That's a good sign that we are nearing these other packs as S6000 is downstream of S5488 and is not covered yet. FTDNA is working on this part of the haplotree.

Rory Cain
01-25-2016, 09:52 PM
There was just a posting on the R1b L21 yahoo group that someone received a haplogroup label R-S6000. That's a good sign that we are nearing these other packs as S6000 is downstream of S5488 and is not covered yet. FTDNA is working on this part of the haplotree.

These things don't happen by themselves. I recruited a number of the S6000 guys and have been working with them. They were receptive to SNP testing and their testing gave me the evidence needed to submit S6000 for inclusion in the Y-tree. A little reward for their active participation. The desk officer at FTDNA will expedite any submission that arrives as a complete package. The S6000 guys gave me the evidence needed for that.
However the SNP Pack assembly process works quite separately to the development of SNP packs. That involves a different desk officer, different processes, and quite possibly different criteria. It is much slower. And I haven't seen the same assurance that a complete submission will be expedited. In short it's a little more if a mystery to me, whereas anyone who gets off their butt and does a decent SNP submission for the Ytree is assured that will be expedited. Thanks, S6000 testers! Thanks FTDNA!

Mikewww
01-25-2016, 10:17 PM
These things don't happen by themselves. I recruited a number of the S6000 guys and have been working with them. They were receptive to SNP testing and their testing gave me the evidence needed to submit S6000 for inclusion in the Y-tree. A little reward for their active participation. The desk officer at FTDNA will expedite any submission that arrives as a complete package. The S6000 guys gave me the evidence needed for that.
However the SNP Pack assembly process works quite separately to the development of SNP packs. That involves a different desk officer, different processes, and quite possibly different criteria. It is much slower. And I haven't seen the same assurance that a complete submission will be expedited. In short it's a little more if a mystery to me, whereas anyone who gets off their butt and does a decent SNP submission for the Ytree is assured that will be expedited. Thanks, S6000 testers! Thanks FTDNA!
Absolutely and it is the project administrators, citizen-scientists and passionate testers providing the energy and doing the heavy lifting. I'm not sure what the assembly versus development process is. Are you talking about haplotree updates versus product updates?

Rory Cain
01-25-2016, 11:59 PM
Absolutely and it is the project administrators, citizen-scientists and passionate testers providing the energy and doing the heavy lifting. I'm not sure what the assembly versus development process is. Are you talking about haplotree updates versus product updates?

Yes, you appear to have linked the two. But I know how S6000 got on the Ytree and it was nothing to do with SNP Pack development. Unlike the old days when FTDNA brought out Ytrees that were already obsolete, and would accept no changes until yet another obsolete ytree replaced it, they are now responsive to updates and have even appointed an officer to handle them. But the SNP Packs are a totally different matter, different officer, different process, and I doubt the link that you drew from S6000's appearance. That had nothing to do with the other much slower and less responsive process. Sorry.

Rory Cain
03-12-2016, 09:43 PM
FTDNA cleared some of their backlog this week, including a number of R1b-Z246 SNP Packs. FTDNA like the "Z"-series names. They sound really cool. Good for marketing purposes. Poor choice though. Z3000 is in fact a sub-clade of S971, making it sound like S971 was excluded, although I understand this was not the case.

Similarly the cool-sounding Z246 is downstream of FGC3903 which is downstream of Z30233. FGC3903 is included, even though the choice of Z246 for a name makes it sound like FGC3903 was excluded. Z30233 is not included because until Rathlin1, it was not realised that Z30233 is the upstream marker.

Z246 was always reported as being negative in Geno, even when reporting the downstream markers of DF25, DF5 & Z248 as positive! Quality control never picked up on that a
ambiguity! Now, in the SNP Packs, it seems that Z246 is being reported with an asterix, as Z246*. No, that doesn't mean Z246+ and negative for everything else downstream. Well, it does mean that anywhere else, but that's apparently not what FTDNA mean. To them, the asterix means heterozygous or more bluntly, "we don't know".

FTDNA are now kindly re-running a batch of dubious Z246- results I queried. I hope those folks haven't spent too much on testing other SNPs in the meantime. Several tested the next most likely SNP, S5488, and most "Z246-" folks received negative results for S5488 as well. My guess is that a fair number of them will actually be Z246+.

swid
07-07-2016, 03:12 PM
Mike, do you know if there's any plans in the near/intermediate future to refresh the existing L21 Pack or to release a V2 version of it?

Now that (just about) all the big subclades below L21 have had their own packs released, the L21 Pack should be able to be further focused on the smaller subclades and incorporate SNP discoveries over the past year.

Mikewww
07-07-2016, 03:40 PM
FTDNA cleared some of their backlog this week, including a number of R1b-Z246 SNP Packs. FTDNA like the "Z"-series names. They sound really cool. Good for marketing purposes. Poor choice though. Z3000 is in fact a sub-clade of S971, making it sound like S971 was excluded, although I understand this was not the case. ....
My experience with FTDNA is they have no preference for Z series SNP names. They have a process but they have many, many S SNP names to go with many, many FGC, A, etc. SNP names.

You can look across the aboard at the SNPs in the Packs by going to the Advanced Tests/Buy Now and then select SNP Pack in the filter box. You'll see what I'm talking about.

The reason I say they have a process is I've submitted SNPs to them with names that I thought were most popular only to find out later they picked other synonyms, including A and FGC names. It is apparent to me they go to some database and pick what they think is the most valid name (probably the oldest by registry date.) I don't know and I don't really care as I've thrown in the towel on synonym naming confusion. I hoped ISOGG would help but they can't on this, apparently.

... as I think about this, it makes sense that Z SNP names would be the first registered in many cases as our hobbyists who document these, for instance Alex Williamson, only create a new SNP name when a prior name is not registered as far as their knowledge.

Mikewww
07-07-2016, 03:43 PM
Mike, do you know if there's any plans in the near/intermediate future to refresh the existing L21 Pack or to release a V2 version of it?

Now that (just about) all the big subclades below L21 have had their own packs released, the L21 Pack should be able to be further focused on the smaller subclades and incorporate SNP discoveries over the past year.

Yes, they are due for a refresh. What needs to be added?

swid
07-07-2016, 06:23 PM
The two I know of offhand are BY4046 (for purely selfish reasons, but at least it's a public subclade directly below ZZ10) and Z39589 (for DF13 phylogeny reasons, even if has to be as a add-on Sanger run like DF27).

I'd have to cross-reference the existing SNPs in the Pack with the Big Tree, FTDNA's tree, and what's covered in other packs to create a thorough list of proposed updates.

swid
08-18-2016, 07:38 PM
This is a very rough draft of what could be in the V2 L21 Pack...the formatting's not the best, but it should get the point across.

This is every SNP that is up to three levels down of L21 on the Big Tree as of today (August 18) and is a total of 151 SNPs.

L21
---->A5846
---->---->A5840
---->---->---->Y17193 (variants of single surname)
---->---->---->A5835 (single surname)
---->A7905
---->---->A7900
---->BY2899 (single surname)
---->DF63
---->---->CTS6919
---->---->---->A92
---->---->---->---->BY654
---->---->---->---->Z16506
---->---->---->BY7794
---->---->BY592
---->---->---->Z16245
---->---->---->---->Z16246
---->---->---->A7810
---->---->BY711
---->---->---->BY707 (single surname)
---->DF13
---->---->DF21
---->---->---->FGC3213
---->---->---->---->Z16532
---->---->---->---->ZZ1 (palindrome)
---->---->---->---->S7180 (single surname)
---->---->---->S971
---->---->---->---->FGC23375
---->---->---->---->FGC3371
---->---->---->---->Z3000
---->---->---->Z30233
---->---->---->---->S5201
---->---->---->BY10442
---->---->---->S5488
---->---->---->---->Z16294
---->---->---->---->BY518 (palindrome)
---->---->---->---->Z17568
---->---->---->---->A6484
---->---->L513
---->---->---->S5668
---->---->---->---->A7
---->---->---->---->Z16340
---->---->---->---->Z16357
---->---->---->S6365
---->---->---->---->Z16361
---->---->---->---->Z16385
---->---->---->---->L705
---->---->---->Z23506 (single surname?)
---->---->---->Z23532
---->---->---->FGC13437
---->---->---->---->ZS7698
---->---->---->L192 (single surname)
---->---->FGC11134
---->---->---->A353 (indel)
---->---->---->---->Z16250
---->---->---->---->S3675
---->---->---->A286
---->---->---->---->Z17992
---->---->---->---->FGC49407
---->---->---->ZZ44 (palindrome)
---->---->---->---->FGC11293
---->---->---->---->A9871
---->---->FGC5494
---->---->---->FGC5561
---->---->---->---->FGC32810
---->---->---->---->FGC19916
---->---->---->---->A6368
---->---->---->---->A913
---->---->---->---->FGC7448
---->---->---->---->FGC19319
---->---->---->---->Z16503
---->---->---->Y15901
---->---->---->---->Y9089
---->---->---->---->A7675
---->---->---->A7254
---->---->---->A7820 (single surname)
---->---->---->A7758
---->---->Z17300 (may be below Z39589)
---->---->A9507 (may be below Z39589)
---->---->---->S7323
---->---->ZZ10 (palindrome)
---->---->---->BY4046
---->---->---->CTS3386
---->---->---->---->S19268
---->---->---->---->Z17970
---->---->---->MC14
---->---->---->---->Y16773
---->---->---->---->BY246
---->---->---->Z253
---->---->---->---->Z2534
---->---->---->---->FGC13898
---->---->---->---->ZZ6 (palindrome)
---->---->---->---->BY4086 (palindrome)
---->---->---->Z255
---->---->---->---->Z16429
---->---->---->---->Z16434
---->---->---->---->FGC39971
---->---->---->---->Z16437
---->---->Z39589 (indel)
---->---->---->DF41
---->---->---->---->A40
---->---->---->---->S775
---->---->---->---->FGC8621
---->---->---->---->Y5628
---->---->---->---->A874
---->---->---->---->BY160
---->---->---->---->MC21
---->---->---->---->FGC14676
---->---->---->---->FGC13017
---->---->---->---->BY1221
---->---->---->DF49
---->---->---->---->Z2980
---->---->---->---->BY260
---->---->---->---->FGC11210
---->---->---->L1335
---->---->---->---->L1065
---->---->---->---->Z16450
---->---->---->Z251
---->---->---->---->Z16943
---->---->---->---->S11556
---->---->---->---->FGC13899
---->---->---->S1051
---->---->---->---->FGC9661
---->---->---->---->S1050
---->---->---->FGC35995
---->---->---->---->14842551-C-A
---->---->---->A4556
---->---->---->---->FGC43856
---->---->---->BY575
---->---->---->---->FGC2913
---->---->---->BY3925
---->---->---->---->A9508
---->---->---->FGC13780
---->---->---->---->CTS3937
---->---->---->CTS1751
---->---->---->---->ZZ49 (palindrome)
---->---->---->---->BY3943
---->---->---->FGC13742
---->---->---->---->CTS11994
---->---->---->L371
---->---->---->---->FGC30633
---->---->---->S16264
---->---->---->---->L679
---->---->---->Z16500
---->---->---->---->A9029
---->---->---->---->A8816
---->---->---->S1026
---->---->---->---->BY3928
---->---->---->---->A1101
---->---->---->---->A1108
---->---->---->---->Z16886

Mikewww
08-18-2016, 08:21 PM
This is a very rough draft of what could be in the V2 L21 Pack...the formatting's not the best, but it should get the point across.

This is every SNP that is up to three levels down of L21 on the Big Tree as of today (August 18) and is a total of 151 SNPs.
...

We are due for a refresh but this it is not necessarily a number of layers from L21 top-down approach. It is more of a top layer and misc. subclades. For instance, subclades like S1026 have more branching but probably can't justify their own pack.

They will accept SNPs from non-FTDNA testing, just won't add them to the haplotree until a couple derived show up on their system.

BTW, I'm counting they have 1,055 distinct branches in the L21 haplotree.

swid
08-19-2016, 04:14 PM
Mike, with the help of the FTDNA haplotree spreadsheet you created, I took another stab at what the starting point SNP-wise of the L21 top-level and misc subclades would look like...on that spreadsheet there are 248 branches in the L21 section of the haplotree that are *not* below DF21, CTS2501/DF41, L513, DF49, FGC11134, Z251, FGC17059 (a step above L1335) , Z255, and Z253.

Given the amount of branching already known underneath L21's smaller subclades and assuming that FTDNA keeps its Pack sizes about what they are, you could make a justification to eventually split the L21 Pack into a "Z39589 Top-Level and Misc Subclades" Pack and a "L21 (xZ39589)" Pack. :)

Cofgene
08-19-2016, 04:27 PM
I believe from a technology point of view there is no reason why the size of a pack could not be larger other than that would drive an increase in price. The topic of splitting some existing packs may be difficult if one is relying on STR predictions to guide users straight to a 2nd tier pack and save the expenditure of doing an upper level filtering pack. When looking at splitting an existing pack is there a way to do it so that STRs can still be used to point the path towards the correct pack?

Mikewww
08-19-2016, 04:38 PM
I believe from a technology point of view there is no reason why the size of a pack could not be larger other than that would drive an increase in price. The topic of splitting some existing packs may be difficult if one is relying on STR predictions to guide users straight to a 2nd tier pack and save the expenditure of doing an upper level filtering pack. When looking at splitting an existing pack is there a way to do it so that STRs can still be used to point the path towards the correct pack?

I thought Vince T or someone explained that this kind of technology has limits but it is not black and white line. As you push the envelope, there can be more difficulty with errors. I asked FTDNA about this and they did say the limit is not a hard line. I know they like to keep the number of SNPs well below 200 and more like 150 but I think that this the gray area.

It is a nice benefit if one can leverage STR predictions to pick a specific SNP Pack to test, but there is no need for that with a proper configuration of the R1b-M343 Backbone Pack. It should have pointer SNPs to all of the Packs in R1b.

Examples of packs for subclades that I'm familiar with that have some nice predictive STRs include:
Z1285 (Irish IV), M222 (NW Irish, L513 (11-13 Combo), L1065 (Scots Modal). Probably the Armenian Haplotype will work for the Z2103 Pack. I'm not that knowledgeable outside of L21 on STR predictions.

George Chandler
08-20-2016, 07:19 PM
Hi Swid,

The tree is a bit wrong with S1051. So far it's unknown if FGC9661 is above or below S1051. Every test result I've received which appears negative for one of the ancient five (S1051, FGC9655, FGC9661, FGC9657 & FGC9658), I have retested that sample through YSEQ only to have it return a positive result. Below that there are several main ancient branches including S1050, FGC17906, FGC17938 etc. I'm not sure if people want add them as it's such a large number of SNP's within it. Testing the ancient five though may one day help to find that ancient branch that has been so far elusive.

Thanks
George

swid
10-04-2016, 02:27 PM
Take three on proposed updates to the L21 SNP Pack...using the FTDNA Tree Outline spreadsheet and cross-referencing it with the existing SNPs in the pack, these are the remaining SNPs that are directly below L21, DF13, DF63, ZZ10, or Z39589 and are not currently included:

L580
M18
FGC17059
BY4046
Z39589
A9507
BY3925
FGC13742
FGC33712
BY711
A7905

There's currently 170 SNPs in the L21 pack, so I know adding another 11 would be approaching the numerical limit of SNPs in a single pack.

oneillabu
10-14-2016, 04:15 PM
I think this is the next big competitive focus as FTDNA has been working on this. I see word is getting out as YSEQ just updated their DF21 panel. The competition is great. I was worried that the U106 might get too much attention but all of this is helping us in L21. ( :) just joking, I want to see the U106 guys have lot's of choices too.)

The best news is that L21ers are smart people. They are getting it that NGS testing really is the way to go (if you have the $). We have a new burst of Big Y orders with this $100 off promotion. I want to say "Remember the Alamo" but it is "Remember Lewis and Clark", the true explorers.

I notice that the DF21 SNP pack is now available which is very welcome and we should be thankful to Mike for this, below is a list of the SNP's in the pack

SNPs included in the R1b-DF21 SNP Pack

Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
DF21, S5488, S7172, S7180, S7182, S7185, S7186, S7188, Y15984, Y15985, Y15987, Y16070, Y16072, Y16073, Z30233, BY9405, BY9406, BY9407, BY9408, BY9409, BY9410, BY9411, BY9412, BY9413, BY9414, BY9416, BY9417, M7465, CTS8704, FGC3903, FGC9749, DF25, Z16267, Z3000, Z3001, Z3010, Z3011, FGC23375, FGC23376, FGC23377, FGC23378, FGC23380, FGC23381, FGC19706, FGC33373, FGC33375, FGC33376, FGC33378, FGC33379, FGC33381, FGC33382, FGC33476, FGC33477, FGC33478, FGC33479, FGC33480, FGC33481, PH129, PH1665, S7858, S3058, S5452, S5470, S5456, S5459, S5460, S5468, S5478, S5480, S5483, S6166, S6296, S7133, BY3300, Z29558, Z10270, BY3736, BY3737, FGC11932, FGC11939, FGC11945, FGC19883, P314, Z16526, Z16527, Z16529, Z16530, Z16531, Z16532, Z16534, Z16535, Z16536, Z16832, Z16523, Z16525, Z16533, Z16537, Z16538, FGC14748, FGC14751, Z29539, Z29540, ZS4595, ZS4597, ZS4599, ZS4600, ZS4602, ZS4605, ZS4612, ZS4613, L362, FGC12099, A11018, ZS4606, A5813, A9070, ZS4598, ZZ50_1, ZZ50_2, FGC1058, S5199, Z29544, ZS4603, S7174


Includes the following SNPs that are NOT YET on the haplotree:
Z3017, S7859, ZZ1_1, ZZ1_2, FGC33377

There are some very notable SNP's below S5488 absent however such as BY518 which is very old and all of the other SNP's downstream of this, are there plans to include these later or have they been simply overlooked by mistake.

Mikewww
10-14-2016, 04:41 PM
I notice that the DF21 SNP pack is now available which is very welcome and we should be thankful to Mike for this, below is a list of the SNP's in the pack

SNPs included in the R1b-DF21 SNP Pack

Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
DF21, S5488, S7172, S7180, S7182, S7185, S7186, S7188, Y15984, Y15985, Y15987, Y16070, Y16072, Y16073, Z30233, BY9405, BY9406, BY9407, BY9408, BY9409, BY9410, BY9411, BY9412, BY9413, BY9414, BY9416, BY9417, M7465, CTS8704, FGC3903, FGC9749, DF25, Z16267, Z3000, Z3001, Z3010, Z3011, FGC23375, FGC23376, FGC23377, FGC23378, FGC23380, FGC23381, FGC19706, FGC33373, FGC33375, FGC33376, FGC33378, FGC33379, FGC33381, FGC33382, FGC33476, FGC33477, FGC33478, FGC33479, FGC33480, FGC33481, PH129, PH1665, S7858, S3058, S5452, S5470, S5456, S5459, S5460, S5468, S5478, S5480, S5483, S6166, S6296, S7133, BY3300, Z29558, Z10270, BY3736, BY3737, FGC11932, FGC11939, FGC11945, FGC19883, P314, Z16526, Z16527, Z16529, Z16530, Z16531, Z16532, Z16534, Z16535, Z16536, Z16832, Z16523, Z16525, Z16533, Z16537, Z16538, FGC14748, FGC14751, Z29539, Z29540, ZS4595, ZS4597, ZS4599, ZS4600, ZS4602, ZS4605, ZS4612, ZS4613, L362, FGC12099, A11018, ZS4606, A5813, A9070, ZS4598, ZZ50_1, ZZ50_2, FGC1058, S5199, Z29544, ZS4603, S7174


Includes the following SNPs that are NOT YET on the haplotree:
Z3017, S7859, ZZ1_1, ZZ1_2, FGC33377

There are some very notable SNP's below S5488 absent however such as BY518 which is very old and all of the other SNP's downstream of this, are there plans to include these later or have they been simply overlooked by mistake.

I think we have to recognize the DF21 project administrators. I know there is some sensitivity on this so I nervous about naming names. I'm more of a facilitator on Pack initiation and the overall configuration of Packs within R1b. The project admins, as is usual, do the real work. ... and they depend on the testers/investors themselves and the great phylogenetic work done by folks like Alex, etc. too as well as interpretation services.

I see that the S5488 AND the S3058 subclades are still not covered. This is really a DF21 top-layer and misc subclades pack which has pointers to but excludes the Z3000, Z246, S5488 and S3058 subclades. I better make sure the R1b Backbone gets all of those pointer SNPs if it doesn't have them already.

Mikewww
10-14-2016, 04:42 PM
I see there is a Z251 Pack too. It's about time. They have fairly complex branching.

SNP Pack R1b - Z251 SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
Z251, CTS4157, A551, FGC13899, BY3226, BY2916, Z18108, Z18092, BY3231, A2201, A228, A237, A241, A545, A555, Z17662, Z16943, Z16944, A5917, A6078, A959, A967, A969, CTS9686, FGC11986, S11556, S9294, FGC18229, FGC18230, FGC23554, FGC34569, L555, L583, A970, S19558, BY317, A1772, BY3656, BY3661, BY3663, BY3665, BY3669, BY3670, BY3671, BY3673, BY3676, BY3679, BY3688, BY3699, BY3704, BY3707, FGC15934, FGC19532, FGC19537, Z16930, Z16931, Z16932, Z16933, Z16934, Z16935, Z16936, Z16937, Z16942, Z16946, BY2920, BY2946, BY2929, BY2932, BY2937, BY2944, A9516, A9515, BY3969, BY3971, BY3975, A9710, A9518, BY3970, BY3972, BY3973, BY3977, BY3976, A9709, Z17663, Z17664, BY2914, BY2973, BY2975, BY2982, BY2983, BY2986, A968, BY118, A960, A964, A244, A245, A250, A242, A256, A238, A232, A240, FGC18246, FGC18247, FGC18248, FGC18272, FGC18235, A239, M6346, A243, A254, A546, BY3980, BY9005, A7078, A7079, A10584, A10557, S15808, A10556, A10559, Z18109, Z18110, Z18111, Z18112, Z18113, Y22431, Y15785, Y15786, Z18090, Z18091, Z18093, Z18101, Z18106, A693, FGC13582, Z18105, FGC11978, FGC11991, FGC13578, BY2990, BY2968, FGC20688, BY3968, BY3978

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
FGC11963, CTS10858, A10649, BY9004, BY9006, FGC18232, PF4217, M9609

Mikewww
10-14-2016, 04:43 PM
Take three on proposed updates to the L21 SNP Pack...using the FTDNA Tree Outline spreadsheet and cross-referencing it with the existing SNPs in the pack, these are the remaining SNPs that are directly below L21, DF13, DF63, ZZ10, or Z39589 and are not currently included:

L580
M18
FGC17059
BY4046
Z39589
A9507
BY3925
FGC13742
FGC33712
BY711
A7905

There's currently 170 SNPs in the L21 pack, so I know adding another 11 would be approaching the numerical limit of SNPs in a single pack.
M18 was sitting in the wrong place on their haplotree. I asked Michael Sager to remove it. I think it is a V88 branch.

In terms of a capacity limit in the L21 pack, I think it just received some relief - Z251, FGC5494, DF63 each have their own packs now.

swid
10-14-2016, 06:06 PM
M18 was sitting in the wrong place on their haplotree. I asked Michael Sager to remove it. I think it is a V88 branch.

In terms of a capacity limit in the L21 pack, I think it just received some relief - Z251, FGC5494, DF63 each have their own packs now.

Good deal on both fronts...I saw your post in the L21 Yahoo group that the number of SNP branches under L21 in the "other" category is 113. Now that virtually every larger subclade under L21 has at least one Pack of its own, that leads me to believe that a lot of these smaller subclades can make it into the next version of the L21 Pack. :)

oneillabu
10-26-2016, 07:39 PM
I think we have to recognize the DF21 project administrators. I know there is some sensitivity on this so I nervous about naming names. I'm more of a facilitator on Pack initiation and the overall configuration of Packs within R1b. The project admins, as is usual, do the real work. ... and they depend on the testers/investors themselves and the great phylogenetic work done by folks like Alex, etc. too as well as interpretation services.

I see that the S5488 AND the S3058 subclades are still not covered. This is really a DF21 top-layer and misc subclades pack which has pointers to but excludes the Z3000, Z246, S5488 and S3058 subclades. I better make sure the R1b Backbone gets all of those pointer SNPs if it doesn't have them already.

Just got this from FTDNA on a new R1b-S5488 SNP Pack, so all S5488 people should be thankful to Mike for this important package which will help to define this ancient SNP, one thing I noticed is that the BY518 SNP does not show up in the list and this is a very old SNP that defines a large cluster, is this simply an accidental omission from the list or has it been overlooked.

Once again thanks to Mike for helping with this package which is vital to S5488 people and DF21 in general


SNPs included in the R1b-S5488 SNP Pack

Includes the following SNPs (all on the haplotree):
S5488, A6484, A6486, A6488, A6489, A6490, A6492, A6494, A6495, A6496, A6498, A6499, FGC33041, FGC33047, FGC33049, FGC33052, FGC33053, FGC33055, FGC33057, FGC33060, FGC33056, A932, A933, A934, A935, A936, FGC11317, FGC11320, FGC11321, FGC11322, FGC11324, FGC11329, FGC11334, FGC11337, FGC11338, FGC11339, FGC11340, L1336, L1337, Z17568, Z16294, BY11116, BY11118, BY11121, BY3305, BY3306, BY3307, BY3308, S7837, ZZ21, L130, Z16282, Z16283, Z16286, Z16288, Z16290, Z16291, Z16292, Z16293, BY3302, BY3303, BY3304, Z16284, Z16289, Z29611, BY3301, M7964, S7200, Z16297, Z16299, Z16300, Z16302, Z16303, Z16304, Z16305, Z16306, Z16307, Z16308, Z16309, Z16310, Z16311, Z16314, Z16319, L720, S10807, BY11111, Z16543, S6003, BY634, BY635, BY636, BY637, BY638, BY639, BY640, FGC33971, FGC33972, FGC33973, FGC33974, Z17560, Z17562, Z17564, S6000, S6018, S6019, S7190, FGC43486, Z17557, Z17561, Z17558, FGC43477, FGC43478, FGC43479, FGC43481, FGC43483, BY11119, BY11112, BY11113, BY11114, BY11115, BY11120, BY4005, BY4006, BY4007, BY4008, BY4011, BY4012, S6024, Z17563, A6487, BY518, FGC33039, Z16542

swid
10-28-2016, 03:55 PM
For completeness' sake (even though it's been mentioned just about everywhere else already), the R1b - L21v2 SNP Pack came out this week as well:

--

Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
L21, Z290, DF21, DF25, M222, Z255, Z253, CTS6838, CTS2501, L371, CTS3386, CTS4466, CTS1751, L96, L226, L679, DF63, DF49, CTS5396, Z2185, Z16419, Z16420, BY575, DF41, FGC11134, FGC13780, FGC5494, L1335, MC14, S1026, S1051, S16264, Z16500, Z251, Z2542, Z17300, S5982, S5668, S6365, L1065, Z3000, Z19670, FGC436, A7297, Z17971, CTS1864, BY3227, BY2899, Z17992, Z17967, A7298, A6138, BY3228, A1078, A1101, A1105, A1120, A286, A5381, A5843, A5845, A5846, BY246, BY2601, BY2604, BY2666, BY2723, BY595, Z16910, Z16891, Z16886, Z16250, S9793, FGC11293, FGC13300, FGC13758, FGC15565, FGC18030, S19268, S1021, FGC32861, FGC35995, A7302, BY596, FGC13304, Z260, Z245, S3058, S5488, A8816, BY4045, BY4047, Z252, FGC9661, FGC9660, A11312, A7901, A7904, A7906, BY3031, A9507, A9508, BY3925, A5835, BY3927, A9039, A9871, FGC11271, BY11098, FGC11272, ZZ46_1, ZZ44_1, BY3928, A9029, BY576, BY9003, A9850, CTS6295, BY11097, S22219, FGC35783, FGC13742, FGC13748, FGC13783, FGC33712, Y17193, S5194, FGC30633, FGC10059, A7314, F110, S21225, Y16134, CTS10758, CTS10044, Y16233, Z17633, BY9000, S5257, FGC14724, FGC14726, Z17555, BY9002, FGC18023, CTS5296, S27175, Z17969, Z39589, FGC30631, FGC8000, FGC43856, FGC35996, FGC9557, FGC49407

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
Z17901, L1444, FGC2913, CTS3937, FGC10083

rivergirl
10-29-2016, 01:35 AM
I was very happy to see the version 2 L21 SNP Pack.
It has the. 9 known branches under CTS1751 covered. Hopefully some of the known or predicted CTS1751 men, who do not want to do a Big Y test will tt for this SNP Pack.
Big thanks to Mike W.

Mikewww
11-08-2016, 04:33 PM
I've been asked to provide an update on this refresh. The product update came out the week before last but I've been too busy to review. I started to review it this morning.

1. I can't get FTDNA to add a product description besides the title but this should be called the R1b-L21 top-layer and misc. subclades SNP Pack. There are already specialized packs from FTDNA for most of the major subclades of L21.

2. First thing I see is there are 158 SNPs. Everyone gets tested for every SNP so it provides some cross-validation of SNP results.

3. There are a number of small subclades included, it looks like all of the branching for each of these at one SNP per branch.

4. Much of the top-layer of branching includes phylogenetic equivalents, particularly for SNPs in CombBED regions. Examples:
L21 plus Z245, Z260, Z290
DF41 plus CTS2501, FGC8000
DF49 plus FGC436
S1051 plus FGC9660, FGC9661
CTS3386 plus CTS10044
MC14 plus Y16233, Z17633
Z253 plus Z252
Z255 plus Z16419, Z16420
L1335 plus FGC9557, S5257
I'm a little surprised Z252 made it.

Essentially, the inclusion of these equivalents is an effort to smash the "asterisks" from L21*, DF13* people.

Mikewww
12-27-2016, 04:39 PM
I've been asked to provide an update on this refresh. The product update came out the week before last but I've been too busy to review. I started to review it this morning.

1. I can't get FTDNA to add a product description besides the title but this should be called the R1b-L21 top-layer and misc. subclades SNP Pack. There are already specialized packs from FTDNA for most of the major subclades of L21.

2. First thing I see is there are 158 SNPs. Everyone gets tested for every SNP so it provides some cross-validation of SNP results.

3. There are a number of small subclades included, it looks like all of the branching for each of these at one SNP per branch.

4. Much of the top-layer of branching includes phylogenetic equivalents, particularly for SNPs in CombBED regions. Examples:
L21 plus Z245, Z260, Z290
DF41 plus CTS2501, FGC8000
DF49 plus FGC436
S1051 plus FGC9660, FGC9661
CTS3386 plus CTS10044
MC14 plus Y16233, Z17633
Z253 plus Z252
Z255 plus Z16419, Z16420
L1335 plus FGC9557, S5257
I'm a little surprised Z252 made it.

Essentially, the inclusion of these equivalents is an effort to smash the "asterisks" from L21*, DF13* people.

I went through this top-layer and misc. subclades haplotree branching and requested at least one SNP per branch for the Advanced Tests/SNP (Sanger Sequencing) menu. I received notification that some of these SNPs are now available. Let me know if you see branches still uncovered. If it is on the haplotree and in an SNP Pack FTDNA is saying they will make it available by Sanger Sequencing. I've had a bit of a run-in with them as I think they need to update their SNP Packs on a committed pace.

swid
12-27-2016, 06:11 PM
Thanks, Mike! I got emails this morning that BY4047 and BY4045 are now available as individual tests, so I figured that they had cleared through some of that backlog.

Did you put in a request one or more of the SNPs in the BY12512 block? If not, I'll submit those requests myself.

Mikewww
12-27-2016, 06:29 PM
Thanks, Mike! I got emails this morning that BY4047 and BY4045 are now available as individual tests, so I figured that they had cleared through some of that backlog.

Did you put in a request one or more of the SNPs in the BY12512 block? If not, I'll submit those requests myself.
I don't remember. FTDNA should provide an request queue to query so that we can see what is already submitted, but they need to provide what is already available with the pos-anc-der detail first.
This ends up being more inefficient for them as well as us.

I recommend just going into myFTDNA, UPGRADES (blue button), ADVANCED TESTS-BUY NOW (blue button) then SELECT A PRODUCT = SNP and key in the first few letters of the SNPs you are looking for and see what comes up. If you don't see it, then go to the GAP tool Y DNA SNP report to REQUEST AN SNP (blue button).

R. Walker
01-26-2017, 04:14 AM
I had my son, X Uren tested in October last year on the R1b - L21v2 SNP Pack. The results are back, and he is now Confirmed Haplogroup R-ZZ46_1. So what does this mean? It looks like there isn't anything below that he can be tested for. Has anyone else gotten this result?
Thanks,
R. Walker

Mikewww
01-26-2017, 11:17 AM
I had my son, X Uren tested in October last year on the R1b - L21v2 SNP Pack. The results are back, and he is now Confirmed Haplogroup R-ZZ46_1. So what does this mean? It looks like there isn't anything below that he can be tested for. Has anyone else gotten this result?
Thanks,
R. Walker
What is his kit #? Please have him join the R-L21 project if hasn't already and I'll look at his results. At first glance, I think he is in a subclade marked by FGC11134.

swid
01-26-2017, 02:49 PM
I had my son, X Uren tested in October last year on the R1b - L21v2 SNP Pack. The results are back, and he is now Confirmed Haplogroup R-ZZ46_1. So what does this mean? It looks like there isn't anything below that he can be tested for. Has anyone else gotten this result?

I saw you asked the same question on the R-L21 project's Activity Feed; here's the reply I put there:

--

"I take it he is FGC11293-, then? Interestingly, FGC11293 is listed in the same block as ZZ46 on the Big Tree, but FTDNA has them on separate levels on their haplotree. There's been a couple people who have been found to be ZZ46* through Big Y testing: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1372

Also, join the R-FGC11134 and Subclades Project, if you haven't already."

R. Walker
01-26-2017, 06:43 PM
Thanks, his kit # is N69669. I have him tested only to y 67, but he has also been Geno2.0 tested at the Genographic Society. He is already in the R-L21 group. EDIT Yes he is FGC11293 neg. Is the R-FGC11134 and Subclades Project at FTDNA?

swid
01-18-2018, 09:14 PM
Mike, any word on whether we'll see an L21v3 Pack at some point?

Once all the holiday sale Big Y results are in (and we've had time to digest the results/get the tree updated), it'll probably be time to look at refreshing the top-level L21 pack again.

Mikewww
01-19-2018, 02:13 PM
Mike, any word on whether we'll see an L21v3 Pack at some point?

Once all the holiday sale Big Y results are in (and we've had time to digest the results/get the tree updated), it'll probably be time to look at refreshing the top-level L21 pack again.

This in the works but FTDNA is slow I would never forecast dates for them.

swid
01-19-2018, 03:05 PM
Thanks, Mike.

Given how vast the L21 haplotree is at this point, I'd thought about proposing an R-ZZ10 (xZ253 xZ255) Pack at some point. If a refresh is already in the works, though, I should probably get that figured out sooner rather than later so that (if approved), we can move some SNPs out of the L21 Pack whenever the next version happens.