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Kuro
10-03-2015, 04:25 PM
First yes I am related to the person SwedeLover. 2nd that person - my brother - has about as much knowledge of DNA as a mouse trying to do engineering and as subtle as a bull-in-a-china shop. So in short, ignore him.


Now, I tried this on another forum and decided to ask here as well given as the other forum has some absolute nut whom as per their own DNA are of Germanic descendent but insist they are Celtic Irish. And comes up with some absolute wonderful BS to "prove" they are. Being as I am of Irish roots the guy just gets under my skin because when other posters poke Titanic sized holes in the "research" he/she then gets offensive :P


Anyways some of you may have heard of black Irish - fair skin, dark hair, dark eyes.

I doubt many of you have heard of dark Irish - whom are dark skinned, dark haired, and dark eyed.


My great grandfather was a dark Irishman. He was dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed - I won't say if they are common or not, as the term is rarely used nowadays, so the average person probably mistakes mix-bloods as being dark Irishmen - and great-granddad is one reason why some of my relatives [including my brother who last year all summer with conservation / outside could have passed for someone from the Mediterranean yet remove the high sun exposure of the summer - winter - and he goes back to pale with a slight hint of a tan] tan rather than burn in the sun.

Now before people start saying oh some African [slave] mix-blood descendent... my African DNA as per a number of DNA sites is pretty much nonexistent, however, my Spanish / Iberian DNA [and to a smaller extent Italian] is rather high [in fact, as per Geno 2.0 my 2nd reference population is actually Greek which was rather surprising as Greek doesn't even register on other sites].



Removing the dub of "Celtic" the people themselves are of Mediterranean descendent long before they moved to Germany - Europe and then into the UK. They were, after all, displaced by the Romans and the Romans forefathers. The word Gaul, which is oftentimes applied to the Celts as well, is Roman after all.

The modern Mediterranean are of Celtic / Roman background [specifically the La Tene Celts] - while the modern European/UKers are Celtic / Viking/German background [La Tene + Hallstatt]. Hence the difference in skin tone / complexion.



This is my father's forefather.

My thing is, is if I use dad's DNA the DNA is rarer.

There is hardly any matches on such sites as 23&me. FTDNA from the Y side matches with 8 other males, and if I am reading the Y "relation" properly we don't share a common relative in over 500 years. His DYS results are typically smaller in number [so older] than the so called Irish modals available in most. And his Y SNPs match only 13 people - including 3 1800s Spanish.

Now if I use DNA from dad's side - from women whom would have inherited some of the X from the forefather [the dark Irishman] or other male relatives - it turns out there their DNA is almost as rare. I mean despite the fact that this is a VERY old familial clan in Ireland there is actually very little relation to Ireland as per DNA [probably because the DNA samples used on pretty much every site are far more modern - so Viking Irish if you would]. Using FTDNA's mtDNA origins for example on one female relative to his familial clan gives us <0.1% Irish, 0.1% English/UK, and 1% Moldova - of the 56 countries listed her DNA has "hits" with 21 countries [compared to my mum's mtDNA which has some % with every single country] and a number of them have older [Iraq / Latvia] populations.


So my thing is - everyone says the Celts [or any true descendants] are "dead". Are they, or are the people researching simply looking in the wrong place?

I mean as said, my familial clan is OLD. Our non-anglicized name is said to have come from a single word in the Gaulish / Celtic language [and really the anglicized version is so off from the non-anglicized it is incredible] for our characteristic of battle and our family is traced clearly back to the 2nd Century [200 AD] though there is good possibility we went back to 500 BC. This is unlike some of the other so called "celtic" families whose names are often adopted from one or two celtic words or named after something of celtic origin. In this sense, they weren't named by Celts or have any real ties to the Celts but attempt to "fudge" to seem authentic... we were named specifically by Celtic/Gaulish origins.

Dubhthach
10-03-2015, 05:32 PM
I'm an Irishman, born in Ireland and have lived all my life in Ireland. We don't know anything about either "Black Irish" or "Dark Irish" (in Ireland "Black Irish" means Irish people who are actually Black or of mixed race background -- Ruth Negga for example), as far as we concerned "Black Irish" (as talked about on internet) is as american as using 4 leaf clover on St. Patrick day (hint the three leaves of Shamrock in fairytale is suppose to represent the Holy Trinity) or drinking Green beer.

DMXX
10-03-2015, 05:41 PM
It's definitely a trope that emerged from the "New World". In fact, I only learned of the phrase from materials produced by Euro-Americans (Internet posts, published historical accounts etc.).

rms2
10-03-2015, 06:26 PM
There is a similar myth about the so-called "Black Dutch". I think I read somewhere those myths were constructed as a cover for otherwise white people with some likely African admixture acquired in North America, like the Melungeons.

miiser
10-03-2015, 06:33 PM
Even in the States, there isn't any kind of agreement or consensus on what the term means. "Black Irish" is one of those terms that is used so infrequently that many people have never heard it, and it needs to be explained each time it gets used. Just about everyone defines it differently. I've heard it used in all the various ways mentioned above - black hair, dark skin, or mixed race. And its usage often results in a discussion over its definition.

rms2
10-03-2015, 06:38 PM
Even in the States, there isn't any kind of agreement or consensus on what the term means. "Black Irish" is one of those terms that is used so infrequently that many people have never heard it, and it needs to be explained each time it gets used. Just about everyone defines it differently. I've heard it used in all the various ways mentioned above. And its usage often results in a discussion over its definition.

That's very true. I've heard it applied to people simply because they had dark hair; otherwise, there was nothing particularly "black" about them. In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.

Dubhthach
10-03-2015, 07:16 PM
funniest bit of ad hominem direct at me all month. You've made my day :D

Though I appreciate the bit of "let's explain to Irishman what actually happens in his country".

Lirio100
10-03-2015, 07:57 PM
That's very true. I've heard it applied to people simply because they had dark hair; otherwise, there was nothing particularly "black" about them. In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.
I've only heard the term passed around as a joke in my ex-husband's family. His family is (non famous) Kennedy; he and his brother had black, very tightly curled hair, dark blue eyes, and an olive tone to their skin. They were more serious about a shape of skull they insisted was the Kennedy head....

rms2
10-03-2015, 08:09 PM
funniest bit of ad hominem direct at me all month. You've made my day :D

Though I appreciate the bit of "let's explain to Irishman what actually happens in his country".

The pity is that no doubt the mods will come along and delete the post you're referring to. It should be left to stand as a monument to . . . well, you know. ;)

MikeWhalen
10-03-2015, 08:25 PM
6147


...

6149

sincerely

Mike

oh, ya...
6151

miiser
10-03-2015, 08:31 PM
That's very true. I've heard it applied to people simply because they had dark hair; otherwise, there was nothing particularly "black" about them. In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.

My grandfather (3rd generation American) is Irish from the NYC area, fair skinned with straight jet black hair (as close to "black" as I've ever seen in a European). My dad is about 3/4 Irish and inherited the same hair color. They look fairly typically Irish, except for the unusually dark hair. My dad uses the term "black Irish" occasionally, and he seems to have picked it up from his parents. From the way he uses the term, my impression is that it wasn't any sort of an insult or racial slur within their community, but was just a way to classify and make sense of their appearance among an American community who expected an Irish person to look more like a stereotype. I imagine the conversation would have gone something like this, "He's Irish? But he doesn't look Irish." "Well, that's because he's black Irish."

rossa
10-03-2015, 08:35 PM
funniest bit of ad hominem direct at me all month. You've made my day :D

Though I appreciate the bit of "let's explain to Irishman what actually happens in his country".


I bet you don't even celebrate Saint Pattys day.

Dubhthach
10-03-2015, 08:50 PM
I bet you don't even celebrate Saint Pattys day.

Think that's conspiracy by Ronald McDonald to sell more burgers!

rms2
10-03-2015, 08:52 PM
Think that's conspiracy by Ronald McDonald to sell more burgers!

Isn't it amazing how Scots cuisine has spread throughout the world? ;)

But I guess Ronald is a Red Scot and not a Black Scot.

rms2
10-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Hey! I just thought of a precedent for this kind of thing. Didn't the Irish refer to the Danes as Black Foreigners and to the Norwegians as White Foreigners? (I forget the Gaelic terms.)

Dubhthach
10-03-2015, 08:57 PM
Isn't it amazing how Scots cuisine has spread throughout the world? ;)

But I guess Ronald is a Red Scot and not a Black Scot.

well McDonald = Mac Domhnaill -- son of Domhnall (Dónal), which derives from proto-Celtic *Dumno-valos eg. "World ruler", so ye could say it was pre-ordained given their name that they would astride the world of culinary delights like a colossus! ;)

Dubhthach
10-03-2015, 09:00 PM
Hey! I just thought of a precedent for this kind of thing. Didn't the Irish refer to the Danes as Black Foreigners and to the Norwegians as White Foreigners? (I forget the Gaelic terms.)

yup, what's even funnier is the word Dubh-gall (Dubhghall) got borrowed as a personal name, thence surnames such as Doyle (Ó Dubhghaill), McDowell/McDoual/McDougal (Mac Dubhghaill) and of coure the personal name "Dougal".

Of course to medieval Gael no doubt part of reason for Danish "swarthyness" was due to fact that they actually get a summer in Denmark and as a result have tans!

Fionnghall would technically be more "fair/blonde foreigners", though obviously in oldest strata of irish Fionn (Find = old irish version) meant "white"

AtWhatCost
10-04-2015, 12:26 AM
I think most of the Doyle's are subclades under L21 too, perhaps a good case for L21 Vikings.

AtWhatCost
10-04-2015, 12:28 AM
Well, that attack from left field was quite enlightening. Let's see if you can make it to 5 posts, matey.

bobp
10-04-2015, 01:09 AM
I'm an Irishman, born in Ireland and have lived all my life in Ireland. We don't know anything about either "Black Irish" or "Dark Irish" (in Ireland "Black Irish" means Irish people who are actually Black or of mixed race background -- Ruth Negga for example), as far as we concerned "Black Irish" (as talked about on internet) is as american as using 4 leaf clover on St. Patrick day (hint the three leaves of Shamrock in fairytale is suppose to represent the Holy Trinity) or drinking Green beer.


My wife's parents came from Ireland (father from Mayo -surprisingly U106 / mother from Kerry) - they both talked about the "Black Irish" and had the following theories: Celt or Armada or Protestant):\

David Mc
10-04-2015, 01:25 AM
They may have talked about "black Irish," but it is a descriptor that originates in North America.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 01:27 AM
... as is, I believe, the speculation about stranded sailors from the Spanish Armada.

rms2
10-04-2015, 01:56 AM
I've heard the Spanish Armada theory, too. Weird, because usually the only reason for it is dark hair. Big deal. Most northern Europeans have dark hair, in my experience anyway, and I have been there.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 02:20 AM
Very true. One of my aunts (Northern Irish) used to argue that dark hair came from the Spaniards, but she first heard the theory from some cousins from overseas.

Lirio100
10-04-2015, 03:07 AM
Very true. One of my aunts (Northern Irish) used to argue that dark hair came from the Spaniards, but she first heard the theory from some cousins from overseas.

Have these terms actually been taken seriously at some time? I honestly have never heard them outside Irish descendants here I've known, and then they were used as jokes.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 03:25 AM
Genealogical research has always had its eccentrics. Someone has a ridiculous idea, and shares it with someone else, and then it morphs into "fact." I had some real arguments over the purported Armada input with the aforementioned aunt before she (I think) accepted that it was a myth.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 06:19 AM
I think most of the Doyle's are subclades under L21 too, perhaps a good case for L21 Vikings.

Well perhaps not, my point above was that Dubhghall actually became a personal name, used by members of Irish nobility. As a result someone bearing the name Ó Dubhghaill (O'Doyle) is probably descended from a man called Dubhghall (Dougal in english) as oppose to been related to say Nikolaj Coster-Waldau or Helena Christensen.

Here's copy/paste of a post I did about name on facebook before:

---
As for Doyle, the notion that it's a Viking surname strikes me as over-literalism. There are multiple acccounts of men bearing the first name Dubhghall (Dubhgall), so much so that the name is eventually borrowed into English as personal name Dougal. Names such as Ó Dubhghaill (Doyle), Mac Dubhghaill (McDowell, McDougal) simply imply that their titular ancestor bore the personal name Dubhghall.

For example one of the Rigdamna (Kingly material eg. potential successor/ruler) of the Cinéal nEoghain was murdered in 978 bore the personal name Dubhghall. In this case he was the son of the "Táinste of Aileach" (eg. his father Donnchadha was expected to be next King of Northern Uí Néill)

===
M978.6

Dubhghall, mac Donnchadha, tanaisi Ailigh, do mharbhadh lá Muiredhach mac Flainn, lá a bhráthair, & Muiredhach féisin do mharbhadh laa chenél ria c-cionn mís a c-cionaidh Dubhghaill.
===

Or later for example:
==
M1284.3

Dubhgall mac Maghnusa Ui Bhaoighill taoiseach Cloiche Chinn Fhaoladh do mharbhadh do mhuintir Ui Mhaoil Ghaoithe.
==

"Dubhgall the sone of Maghnus O'Boyle" there you have prime example of a Gaelic dynast where both father and son have "Viking" personal names, let the O'Boyle's are part of the Cinéal Conaill, and we have at least one DF85+ O'Boyle out there.

Perhaps one of earliest men we know bearing it as a personal name is recorded as been killed in 923, he had been mentioned earlier as injured in a battle in 912. He was specifically of the Uladh (Ulstermen), in his case he was actual son of King of the Uladh (King of Ulster)

--
M923.4

Dubhghall, mac Aodhaa, righ Uladh, do mharbhadh la h-Ulltoibh .i. la Cenel Maelche.
--

---

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 06:30 AM
... as is, I believe, the speculation about stranded sailors from the Spanish Armada.

What's ironic about this is that official English (aka Dublin Castle) response to Spanish armada ships been wrecked on Irish coast in 1588 was to massacare all Spanish survivors. As a result there are several Armada mass graves around Ireland due to actions of both English forces as well as Gaelic Irish "notables" who didn't want to end up on wrong side of regime.

The Spanish who did survive often did so by been smuggled to Scotland, though in some cases there was disaster on the way. The most famous example was the galleass Girona, which sank on the Antrim coast. She had been repaired with help from Irish chieftain and had pick up over 800 spanish surviors from La Rata Santa Maria Encoronada and Duquesa Santa Ana. Unfortunatly she was wrecked on cliffs near Dunluce castle, while trying to make her way east to safe port in Scotland, result was over 1300 men drowned (think Titanic death toll but in 16th century!)

You can see salvaged gold from it in museum in Belfast:
https://img2.nmni.com/Images/UM-What-s-On/Collections/World-Cultures/Salamander-pendent

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lv6wpF-vL.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/68/fa/bb/68fabbb5f65c9837813d2ad6b9f438f3.jpg

https://nmni.com/Images/UM-What-s-On/Collections/World-Cultures/salamander_coins300web.aspx

Given that Ireland was in the throes of "Tudor conquest" at this period, something that would culminate in the nine year war of 1594-1603 it wasn't in the interest of Dublin castle authorties to leave a Spaniard alive in Ireland from the wrecks.

Moderator
10-04-2015, 06:40 AM
[MOD] Some action along unrelated lines will probably be taken against the OP soon (as ever, please PM one of these Bot accounts for details from admins).


The pity is that no doubt the mods will come along and delete the post you're referring to. It should be left to stand as a monument to . . . well, you know. ;)

Well, half a day of buffoonery exposure should suffice for our regulars.

If even cultured and mighty Rome had its public spectacles, suppose we could occasionally do with some of that round here too. :)

alan
10-04-2015, 08:21 AM
'Black' in modern times in Ireland (certainly in the north) is used as a pejorative term for Protestants by Catholics. Its the only use of the term 'Black' for a subset of the Irish population I have ever heard in Ireland. It seems originally to derive from the somber clothing used by protestant settlers centuries ago.

alan
10-04-2015, 08:34 AM
There are a few myths in the north of Ireland about phenotype of catholics and protestants. The most prevailing one I have heard is that the fairly rare thing of having a yellowish/olivey tint to skin tone is more a Protestant thing. It seems to me that freckly skin is far more common among catholics (mostly seen on kids). I think there is a belief too that red hair is more of a catholic thing and blonde more protestant but brown hair is dominant on both sides IMO. To be honest IMO the difference is not great in colouring (many of the Protestants come from Scottish roots and so are similar genetically to the native Irish anyway) but in features. However this is hard to quantify. I think maybe protestants have narrower faces and heads and more prominent noses. Both sides say each other's eyes are too close together hahahaha.

Jean M
10-04-2015, 09:23 AM
Well, half a day of buffoonery exposure should suffice for our regulars.

See also post #10.

jdean
10-04-2015, 09:25 AM
... as is, I believe, the speculation about stranded sailors from the Spanish Armada.

The story did the rounds in S. Wales too, my grandmother (who just turned 90) was told it by the headmaster of her school. That would have been in the 1930s but of course may have come from America. In this case it was used to explain the dark hair and slightly swarthy skin tones that aren't uncommon in the area.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 09:31 AM
I think rather telling that there is no compound word such as "Dubh-ghael" in Irish language (I just made that up there), with regards to protestants in north and history of wearing dark. I had a look in Dineen's dictionary there (1926)

There would seem that the compound word Albanach which usually means Scottish (Alban + ach suffix), also at time was used to describe presbystrians (given origin of Ulster presbytrians hardly surprising), but also as a name for type of puffin


(so called possibly from it's solemn expression and black drapery).

:D

In right column fifth entry, overdot on a consonant is equivalent to consonant + h
so:
Albanaċ == Albanach

As dictionay dates from 1926 the irish head words are written in "Cló Gaelach" (Gaelic type), obviously now adays children learn to use "Cló Romanach" (Roman type) when learning Irish, of course it's same alphabet, just different typeface/calligraphy

That and they dropped the overdots so: ḃ -> bh, ċ -> ch, ḋ -> dh, ḟ -> fh, ġ -> gh, ṁ -> mh, ṗ -> ph, ṡ -> sh, ṫ -> th -- that and ⁊ (tironian "et") instead of &.
http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/pictures/0034-aits.png

avalon
10-04-2015, 09:43 AM
I've heard the Spanish Armada theory, too. Weird, because usually the only reason for it is dark hair. Big deal. Most northern Europeans have dark hair, in my experience anyway, and I have been there.

I beg to differ. ;)

Most adult northern Europeans have medium brown hair, which is not the same as dark hair. Dark hair to my mind is black or dark brown and from a distance some dark brown hair can appear black. And of course, most adult Northern Europeans start out with much lighter hair as children.

IMO the Irish and the Southern British in general have higher frequencies of dark brown/black hair than other countries at a similar latitude. For example, the Netherlands, Northern Germany, Poland and Scandinavia. It's probably not a huge difference but I do believe it is there.

This is supported by a recent genetic hair study which compared Ireland, Greece and Poland. The Irish came out as having higher levels of dark brown hair than Poland.

Gray Fox
10-04-2015, 10:51 AM
Wow this one just kinda got away from me! I just started a new job and I'm working nights, so I hadn't had a chance to even read the OP.. :behindsofa:

GTC
10-04-2015, 11:18 AM
In right column fifth entry, ...

I have yet to meet a Scotsman who didn't bristle at being referred to as a 'Scotchman'.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 11:52 AM
I have yet to meet a Scotsman who didn't bristle at being referred to as a 'Scotchman'.

Sure and I doubt many like been called a Puffin either ;) though in this case it's probably the puffin that wouldn't like been called Scottish.

rms2
10-04-2015, 12:55 PM
I beg to differ. ;)

Most adult northern Europeans have medium brown hair, which is not the same as dark hair. Dark hair to my mind is black or dark brown and from a distance some dark brown hair can appear black. And of course, most adult Northern Europeans start out with much lighter hair as children.

IMO the Irish and the Southern British in general have higher frequencies of dark brown/black hair than other countries at a similar latitude. For example, the Netherlands, Northern Germany, Poland and Scandinavia. It's probably not a huge difference but I do believe it is there.

This is supported by a recent genetic hair study which compared Ireland, Greece and Poland. The Irish came out as having higher levels of dark brown hair than Poland.

I guess where we differ is on what one would call dark hair. I haven't been in every country in Europe (never been to the Scandinavian countries, for example), but where I have been there was an abundance of people with what I would call dark hair, i.e., medium brown to very dark brown. So, for me, medium brown hair is dark hair, being medium brown and not light brown or sandy blond.

I began life as a very light blond myself, but my hair darkened over time until by my late twenties I had medium brown verging on dark brown hair, with a kind of auburn tint.

When I was in the Netherlands, I saw loads of people with dark hair, and I am not including immigrants from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. I haven't been in Poland, but I lived in Russia for awhile. There appearances vary, but I would say most of the people have dark hair.

Lirio100
10-04-2015, 04:04 PM
'Black' in modern times in Ireland (certainly in the north) is used as a pejorative term for Protestants by Catholics. Its the only use of the term 'Black' for a subset of the Irish population I have ever heard in Ireland. It seems originally to derive from the somber clothing used by protestant settlers centuries ago.

Oddly enough, I have heard this usage one time, long time ago. I had made a joke about my then husband to a fellow grad student, he turned serious and told me it was a pejorative term and I shouldn't use it. SE Michigan had a good number of Irish immigrants in the 19th century (see Irish Hills, Corktown) so perhaps it travelled too before disappearing from use.

avalon
10-04-2015, 04:20 PM
I guess where we differ is on what one would call dark hair. I haven't been in every country in Europe (never been to the Scandinavian countries, for example), but where I have been there was an abundance of people with what I would call dark hair, i.e., medium brown to very dark brown. So, for me, medium brown hair is dark hair, being medium brown and not light brown or sandy blond.

I began life as a very light blond myself, but my hair darkened over time until by my late twenties I had medium brown verging on dark brown hair, with a kind of auburn tint.

When I was in the Netherlands, I saw loads of people with dark hair, and I am not including immigrants from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. I haven't been in Poland, but I lived in Russia for awhile. There appearances vary, but I would say most of the people have dark hair.

Fair enough, it does depend on the precise definition that is being used.

For what is it worth, that recent genetic study I mentioned was based on some sort of hair colour phenotype predictor.

Their figures were:

Poland
Black hair 11%, dark brown 23%, light brown/dark blond 44%, blond 14%, auburn/red/red blond 9%

Ireland
black hair 4%, dark brown 47%, light brown/dark blond 33%, blond 5% and auburn/red/red blond 12%

So, IMO, although Poland has higher frequencies of black hair, the overall impression is that the Irish are generally darker haired than the Poles due to their lower frequencies of blond and light brown hair.

Just to add, on eye colour, the results for brown eyes were 23% Ireland, 31% Poland and for Greece 76%.

MikeWhalen
10-04-2015, 05:44 PM
without crossing the admin bots, this 'post' from a day ago probably does not make much sense-so in short....

...a guy went stupid and ugly on a regular poster in a particularly 'over-the-top' way
in response, I placed 5 memes through out the knuckle heads post to let him know what I thought of his childish temper tantrum

when the admins decided to remove the offensive post by the knuckle head, they also, sensibly, 'edited' my rejoinder to remove the dopes words

sadly, we are left with some midly amusing memes but with nothing for them to 'hang' on or have a contex with

thus, the long winded explanation for a rather simple thing
...but please believe it was very creative and witty and i did not cuss once...which must be a record for me
:)



6147

6149

sincerely

Mike

oh, ya...
6151

6166

6167

jdean
10-04-2015, 06:02 PM
without crossing the admin bots, this 'post' from a day ago probably does not make much sense-so in short....

...a guy went stupid and ugly on a regular poster in a particularly 'over-the-top' way
in response, I placed 5 memes through out the knuckle heads post to let him know what I thought of his childish temper tantrum

when the admins decided to remove the offensive post by the knuckle head, they also, sensibly, 'edited' my rejoinder to remove the dopes words

sadly, we are left with some midly amusing memes but with nothing for them to 'hang' on or have a contex with

thus, the long winded explanation for a rather simple thing
...but please believe it was very creative and witty and i did not cuss once...which must be a record for me
:)



6166

6167

I was particularly amused with Attachment 6147 when I read the original post and still find it funny now, even out of context : )

rms2
10-04-2015, 06:57 PM
Fair enough, it does depend on the precise definition that is being used.

For what is it worth, that recent genetic study I mentioned was based on some sort of hair colour phenotype predictor.

Their figures were:

Poland
Black hair 11%, dark brown 23%, light brown/dark blond 44%, blond 14%, auburn/red/red blond 9%

Ireland
black hair 4%, dark brown 47%, light brown/dark blond 33%, blond 5% and auburn/red/red blond 12%

So, IMO, although Poland has higher frequencies of black hair, the overall impression is that the Irish are generally darker haired than the Poles due to their lower frequencies of blond and light brown hair.

Just to add, on eye colour, the results for brown eyes were 23% Ireland, 31% Poland and for Greece 76%.

I haven't made any studies of the subject, and, like I said, I've never been to Poland, but my general impression of northern Europeans is that most of them have brown hair that, if I were pressed, I would have to characterize as dark. That's not to say there are no fair-haired people or bald headed men; there are.

The whole "Black Irish", "Black Dutch" thing here in North America seems to me to center on dark hair, as if people just expect the Irish and Dutch to all be fair haired, and if they're not, there must be some strange historical (or hysterical) way to explain it, like shipwrecked Spanish sailors or wayfaring post-LGM Basques or lost Atlanteans or who-knows-what.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 07:33 PM
I put it up there with that other great american innovation when it comes to all things Irish namely: "Corn beef and cabbage". In Ireland the dish is actually "Bacon and Cabbage", Corn beef was cheaper in the likes of New York as a result irish immigrants started eating "Corn beef and Cabbage", however as a dish it's unknown in Ireland like "Green beer" except as an import from US popular culture ;)

Of course the other great Irish tradition that had distinctly american twist to it is Halloween :)

rms2
10-04-2015, 07:44 PM
I put it up there with that other great american innovation when it comes to all things Irish namely: "Corn beef and cabbage". In Ireland the dish is actually "Bacon and Cabbage", Corn beef was cheaper in the likes of New York as a result irish immigrants started eating "Corn beef and Cabbage", however as a dish it's unknown in Ireland like "Green beer" except as an import from US popular culture ;)

Of course the other great Irish tradition that had distinctly american twist to it is Halloween :)

Funny. We've always eaten corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day and imagined it was a genuine Irish tradition. I've always enjoyed Halloween as long as I can remember. Although I have known for years that there are a lot of American accretions attached to it, I valued Halloween as the one holiday with at least some Celtic roots.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 08:01 PM
I could be wrong, but I recall reading that the Corn beef was borrowed from Jewish community in New York by Irish immigrants. Obviously it does lead to alot more kosher St. Patrick's day meal! ;)

As for Halloween well one prime example of change due to New World influences is use of Pumpkins instead of Turnips for Jack O'Laterns, Pumpkins lot easier to carve, and now standard fair here in Ireland as well.

Here's a Turnip one from early 20th century in musuem:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Traditional_Irish_halloween_Jack-o%27-lantern.jpg/466px-Traditional_Irish_halloween_Jack-o%27-lantern.jpg

Gray Fox
10-04-2015, 08:06 PM
After I got into genealogy and became familiar with a few of the more popular terms, I always took Black Irish or Dutch to be a term to explain away any potential African or Amerindian ancestry. I'd never actually heard of either of them until I became interested in this hobby. It's definitely a loaded term and seems to always be a precursor to something like this little display. I noticed that this fellow volunteered that he was only 0.1% African, after Dubhthach mentioned something about Black Irish meaning an Irish person of African descent (At least to people in Ireland). That's a pretty big hint to his motives right there.

Dubhthach
10-04-2015, 08:17 PM
If wouldn't surprise me if people would say Naisrín was "Black Irish" of course in her case she is half egyptian, though brought up in the Conamara Gaeltacht, her mother been a native irish speaker (father is a Doctor):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvus7IFyFMA

alan
10-04-2015, 08:22 PM
I beg to differ. ;)

Most adult northern Europeans have medium brown hair, which is not the same as dark hair. Dark hair to my mind is black or dark brown and from a distance some dark brown hair can appear black. And of course, most adult Northern Europeans start out with much lighter hair as children.

IMO the Irish and the Southern British in general have higher frequencies of dark brown/black hair than other countries at a similar latitude. For example, the Netherlands, Northern Germany, Poland and Scandinavia. It's probably not a huge difference but I do believe it is there.

This is supported by a recent genetic hair study which compared Ireland, Greece and Poland. The Irish came out as having higher levels of dark brown hair than Poland.

Think you have that wrong. That study found the Irish to have lighter hair, eyes and skin than the Poles, Italians and Portuguese. Some people were surprised the Irish were lighter on all measures than Poles but in my experience they are both brown haired, blue eyed people predominantly with the main difference the Irish have a red minority and the Poles more a blonde minority.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/gwas-study-of-pigmentation-in-four.html

MikeWhalen
10-04-2015, 08:25 PM
thanks, i have been saving that for a while now just for the right time

M

David Mc
10-04-2015, 08:33 PM
I've certainly heard people speak of "the black north," but that, as Jean says, has nothing to do with physical features.

alan
10-04-2015, 08:42 PM
The Irish have ceased to be some sort of genetic museum of isolates over the last number of generations. I notice in the comments that Daniel Day Lewis is sometimes brought up. Bad example - he is part Jewish and English and IMO his features are not at all typically Irish. Similarly Sean Connery (real name Tom Connery) has as much if not more native Scots grandparentage than Irish. The Irish acting family that gave us John Lynch (Cal and In the name of the father) and Susan Lynch are half Italian. There are also a lot of Irish-Romanian 2nd generation people due to the Irish taking in many during their problems.

There is a lot of daft comments on the net like the last three generations of mobility and migration hadnt happened. I have even seen Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean) used as a good example of a Brit hahahaha - but he is Jewish despite the non-Jewish sounding name.

alan
10-04-2015, 08:46 PM
I've certainly heard people speak of "the black north," but that, as Jean says, has nothing to do with physical features.

The word 'black' (often with expletive added just after) is still commonly used in the north by (mostly rural) catholics for virulently bigoted individuals among the local protestants. I have even heard very sectarian protestant villages and towns called 'black holes'.

alan
10-04-2015, 08:47 PM
I've certainly heard people speak of "the black north," but that, as Jean says, has nothing to do with physical features.

pronounced 'de black nort'

alan
10-04-2015, 08:49 PM
I put it up there with that other great american innovation when it comes to all things Irish namely: "Corn beef and cabbage". In Ireland the dish is actually "Bacon and Cabbage", Corn beef was cheaper in the likes of New York as a result irish immigrants started eating "Corn beef and Cabbage", however as a dish it's unknown in Ireland like "Green beer" except as an import from US popular culture ;)

Of course the other great Irish tradition that had distinctly american twist to it is Halloween :)

cabbage bacon and champ is still perfect grub for a cold rainy day.

rms2
10-04-2015, 08:59 PM
After I got into genealogy and became familiar with a few of the more popular terms, I always took Black Irish or Dutch to be a term to explain away any potential African or Amerindian ancestry. I'd never actually heard of either of them until I became interested in this hobby. It's definitely a loaded term and seems to always be a precursor to something like this little display. I noticed that this fellow volunteered that he was only 0.1% African, after Dubhthach mentioned something about Black Irish meaning an Irish person of African descent (At least to people in Ireland). That's a pretty big hint to his motives right there.

I've also heard those terms used in that way, i.e., as cover for lineage that was at one time viewed as shameful and something to be hidden and not discussed. I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts in this thread in connection with the Melungeons.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 09:04 PM
I could be wrong, but I recall reading that the Corn beef was borrowed from Jewish community in New York by Irish immigrants. Obviously it does lead to alot more kosher St. Patrick's day meal! ;)

As for Halloween well one prime example of change due to New World influences is use of Pumpkins instead of Turnips for Jack O'Laterns, Pumpkins lot easier to carve, and now standard fair here in Ireland as well.

Here's a Turnip one from early 20th century in musuem:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Traditional_Irish_halloween_Jack-o%27-lantern.jpg/466px-Traditional_Irish_halloween_Jack-o%27-lantern.jpg

It has to be said, that's a lot more terrifying looking than most carved pumpkins...

Gray Fox
10-04-2015, 09:19 PM
I've also heard those terms used in that way, i.e., as cover for lineage that was at one time viewed as shameful and something to be hidden and not discussed. I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts in this thread in connection with the Melungeons.

Yeah, I seen you did after I posted lol I'm still catching up with this one. Not trying to steal your thunder :P

Jean M
10-04-2015, 09:23 PM
I've certainly heard people speak of "the black north," but that, as Jean says, has nothing to do with physical features.
Me? Are you sure? I've not heard of "the black north". I've heard of the Black Country, which name comes from coal and industrialisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country

alan
10-04-2015, 09:49 PM
It has to be said, that's a lot more terrifying looking than most carved pumpkins...

I still use Turnips. I think they are more creepy - especially if you leave the thready/hairy bits on. Pumpkins (which for me only existed in Peanuts books when I was a kid) are much easier but I discovered if you how grow turnips (not using chemical fertilisers etc) the flesh is softer, more moist and much easier to dig out.

alan
10-04-2015, 09:52 PM
Me? Are you sure? I've not heard of "the black north". I've heard of the Black Country, which name comes from coal and industrialisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country

I dont want to put words into his mouth but he may be meaning the term 'the Black north' which people in the Republic of Ireland traditionally referred to Northern Ireland. Its a bit old fashioned now to say that but it was in common use until not so long ago. People in Northern Ireland call the south 'Mexico' because its 'south of the border'.

alan
10-04-2015, 09:55 PM
It has to be said, that's a lot more terrifying looking than most carved pumpkins...

Yep its simple but that is one of the most creepy lanterns I have seen. Talking of which its only about 3 weeks till halloween now.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 09:55 PM
Me? Are you sure? I've not heard of "the black north". I've heard of the Black Country, which name comes from coal and industrialisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country

Sorry Jean. I was actually referring to Alan's post (#30). For some reason I thought it was you who referenced black clothes.

David Mc
10-04-2015, 10:33 PM
I suspect most usages of "black" actually are slurs, signifying "darkness," or even "evil." This is going back too far to be directly applicable, but Crom Dubh carries the sense of what I mean. It wouldn't have been a stretch for Protestants or Catholics to have considered their opposites to be in darkness in the bad old days.

Dubhthach
10-05-2015, 05:42 AM
I dont want to put words into his mouth but he may be meaning the term 'the Black north' which people in the Republic of Ireland traditionally referred to Northern Ireland. Its a bit old fashioned now to say that but it was in common use until not so long ago. People in Northern Ireland call the south 'Mexico' because its 'south of the border'.

Well usually Dundalk that has that honour, it been known as "El Paso" cause "it's south of border down Mexico way" ;)

moesan
10-05-2015, 11:05 AM
The Irish have ceased to be some sort of genetic museum of isolates over the last number of generations. I notice in the comments that Daniel Day Lewis is sometimes brought up. Bad example - he is part Jewish and English and IMO his features are not at all typically Irish. Similarly Sean Connery (real name Tom Connery) has as much if not more native Scots grandparentage than Irish. The Irish acting family that gave us John Lynch (Cal and In the name of the father) and Susan Lynch are half Italian. There are also a lot of Irish-Romanian 2nd generation people due to the Irish taking in many during their problems.

There is a lot of daft comments on the net like the last three generations of mobility and migration hadnt happened. I have even seen Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean) used as a good example of a Brit hahahaha - but he is Jewish despite the non-Jewish sounding name.

I don't think the bulk of today irish people are too concerned by the new mixings provided by migration even if things are changing on, but what is sure is the artistic spheres have always been the ground of people of complete or partly foreign origin, in every country, so pictures actors are not the better examples to take to illustrate deep local ancestry! by the way I add that, surprisingly, the politic sphere is also a high spot of foreign people, when you grasp the surface.

rms2
10-05-2015, 12:09 PM
I still use Turnips. I think they are more creepy - especially if you leave the thready/hairy bits on. Pumpkins (which for me only existed in Peanuts books when I was a kid) are much easier but I discovered if you how grow turnips (not using chemical fertilisers etc) the flesh is softer, more moist and much easier to dig out.

For me, it's as hard to imagine Halloween without pumpkins as it is to imagine Italian cuisine without tomato sauce, yet both pumpkin and tomato are New World products.

I remember when we visited Chepstow and were walking around town I noticed Sweetgum trees (Liquidambar styraciflua) planted on one of the streets. That's a North American tree. They grow like weeds here in Virginia (and nearly everywhere else in the southeastern quarter of North America).

avalon
10-05-2015, 06:25 PM
Think you have that wrong. That study found the Irish to have lighter hair, eyes and skin than the Poles, Italians and Portuguese. Some people were surprised the Irish were lighter on all measures than Poles but in my experience they are both brown haired, blue eyed people predominantly with the main difference the Irish have a red minority and the Poles more a blonde minority.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/gwas-study-of-pigmentation-in-four.html

It looks like we are referring to different studies. The one I am talking about was Ireland, Poland and Greece. See table 1 in the pdf http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973%2812%2900181-0/abstract?cc=y=

The figures I quoted are also broadly in line with that Harvard study of the 1940s which had dark brown hair at around 40% I believe. Not that it really matters, but I just think that the Irish and Brits on the whole (perhaps not Scotland and the Danelaw areas) have more of the darker shades of brown hair than other Northern Europeans.

And I don't think Rowan Atkinson is Jewish, where did you read that?

alan
10-05-2015, 07:28 PM
It looks like we are referring to different studies. The one I am talking about was Ireland, Poland and Greece. See table 1 in the pdf http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973%2812%2900181-0/abstract?cc=y=

The figures I quoted are also broadly in line with that Harvard study of the 1940s which had dark brown hair at around 40% I believe. Not that it really matters, but I just think that the Irish and Brits on the whole (perhaps not Scotland and the Danelaw areas) have more of the darker shades of brown hair than other Northern Europeans.

And I don't think Rowan Atkinson is Jewish, where did you read that?

I wouldnt dispute that the British and Irish have darker hair on average than north Germanics around the north sea and Baltic coasts but that is comparing them with the lightest haired area in the world. They also are much lighter than Med. peoples in hair colour. I would say the Irish and Brits hair colour is pretty well similar to most of the remainder of central Europe. Judging by a combination of hair and eye colour maps the closest continentals to the Irish/west highland Scottish combination of very high frequency of light eyes and hair darker than north Germanics/lighter than Med. seems to be in Normandy.

alan
10-05-2015, 07:36 PM
It looks like we are referring to different studies. The one I am talking about was Ireland, Poland and Greece. See table 1 in the pdf http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973%2812%2900181-0/abstract?cc=y=

The figures I quoted are also broadly in line with that Harvard study of the 1940s which had dark brown hair at around 40% I believe. Not that it really matters, but I just think that the Irish and Brits on the whole (perhaps not Scotland and the Danelaw areas) have more of the darker shades of brown hair than other Northern Europeans.

And I don't think Rowan Atkinson is Jewish, where did you read that?

another thing to bare in mind is I have noticed super pale dark brown haired people who go off from perma-cloudy areas to hot countries like Australia end up less pale/more ruddy but with their hair sun bleached a couple of shades lighter. It happened to me working outdoors in a sunny clime in just a few months a years back when my adult mid to dark brown hair went all the way to mousey in just a few months and my corpse like complexion almost went like a Nordic reddy-gold. If I had kept on going I would have ended up a negative of myself LOL

Rory Cain
12-02-2015, 03:39 AM
I think most of the Doyle's are subclades under L21 too, perhaps a good case for L21 Vikings.
You might have to do better than that!

Dubhthach
12-02-2015, 10:10 AM
Using Doyle as a proxy for vikings is spectactulay bad example of literalism, when it comes to language you can't speak. Here's copy/paste of a post I made on "Irish DNA" forum on Facebook:


----
As for Doyle, the notion that it's a Viking surname strikes me as over-literalism. There are multiple acccounts of men bearing the first name Dubhghall (Dubhgall), so much so that the name is eventually borrowed into English as personal name Dougal. Names such as Ó Dubhghaill (Doyle), Mac Dubhghaill (McDowell, McDougal) simply imply that their titular ancestor bore the personal name Dubhghall.

For example one of the Rigdamna (Kingly material eg. potential successor/ruler) of the Cinéal nEoghain was murdered in 978 bore the personal name Dubhghall. In this case he was the son of the "Táinste of Aileach" (eg. his father Donnchadha was expected to be next King of Northern Uí Néill)

===
M978.6

Dubhghall, mac Donnchadha, tanaisi Ailigh, do mharbhadh lá Muiredhach mac Flainn, lá a bhráthair, & Muiredhach féisin do mharbhadh laa chenél ria c-cionn mís a c-cionaidh Dubhghaill.
===

Or later for example:
==
M1284.3

Dubhgall mac Maghnusa Ui Bhaoighill taoiseach Cloiche Chinn Fhaoladh do mharbhadh do mhuintir Ui Mhaoil Ghaoithe.
==

"Dubhgall the sone of Maghnus O'Boyle" there you have prime example of a Gaelic dynast where both father and son have "Viking" personal names, let the O'Boyle's are part of the Cinéal Conaill, and we have at least one DF85+ O'Boyle out there.

Perhaps one of earliest men we know bearing it as a personal name is recorded as been killed in 923, he had been mentioned earlier as injured in a battle in 912. He was specifically of the Uladh (Ulstermen), in his case he was actual son of King of the Uladh (King of Ulster)

--
M923.4

Dubhghall, mac Aodhaa, righ Uladh, do mharbhadh la h-Ulltoibh .i. la Cenel Maelche.
---

As we can see a high status individual like the son of the King of the Uladh (that's "Ulster" to english speakers) could bear Dubhghall as a personal name in the early 10th century!

----edit-----

Whoops seems like I've already posted that in this thread ;)

AtWhatCost
12-02-2015, 07:26 PM
You might have to do better than that!
Actually, since some of the Doyle's were actually D'Ouilli, from Normandy, I can do better than that. It's a heck of a lot more sensible than so much else I've seen posted (singleton mania...). Other than that, my interest here has waned.

Rory Cain
12-02-2015, 07:45 PM
Actually, since some of the Doyle's were actually D'Ouilli, from Normandy, I can do better than that. It's a heck of a lot more sensible than so much else I've seen posted (singleton mania...). Other than that, my interest here has waned.
Of course, "Norman" is the standard answer for everything. Congratulations in putting in such wonderful intellectual effort and err search. The O'Doyle clan will no doubt be eternally grateful! LOL!

rms2
12-02-2015, 08:05 PM
And the Norman argument is not a good one for evidence of Viking origin anyway, since the base population of Normandy was likely Gallo-Roman rather than Scandinavian. R1b-L21 appears to be the most frequent y haplogroup in Normandy, but it probably represents the non-Scandinavian, Gallo-Roman natives.

Rory Cain
12-02-2015, 09:17 PM
And the Norman argument is not a good one for evidence of Viking origin anyway, since the base population of Normandy was likely Gallo-Roman rather than Scandinavian. R1b-L21 appears to be the most frequent y haplogroup in Normandy, but it probably represents the non-Scandinavian, Gallo-Roman natives.

Indeed, as I know you found from managing another project, one finds lots of Norman wannabees but surprisingly few unmistakeably genuine Scando-Normans. I might venture further and suggest that a number of "Norman" pedigrees may well turn out to be Victorian-era fiction (or modern fiction).

Rory Cain
12-03-2015, 03:26 AM
There was a person posting under the pseudonym "Tumbleweed Hypothesis". His modus operandi was to throw up a ridiculous statement, supported by no meaningfull evidence whatsoever, in a blatant effort to provoke a reaction. I believe he was removed by the Moderator. I recognise the style here, even though hiding behind a different alias. O'Doyle Clan Vikings being evidence of L21 Vikings in general is a novel approach but otherwise shares the same m.o. The readers have been right to ignore this nonsense.

MikeWhalen
12-03-2015, 03:40 AM
Rory, his last 3 posts certainly sound trollish and petulant to me

hate it when I have to pull out old myron again....

6787

Mike

Moderator
12-03-2015, 06:23 AM
[MOD] Hi all,

We'd prefer if suspected trolls aren't "publicly outed" and are simply reported to us only, for the sake of minimizing unnecessary drama in this forum.

Please continue to report suspicious activity to us. Rest assured we're monitoring. Thanks for your cooperation.

Dubhthach
12-03-2015, 09:48 AM
D'Oyly is a name I've never heard of in an Irish context, it doesn't show up in Griffith Survey for Ireland (which is mid 19th century), it's also missing from the 1901 census.

In 1901 there was a total of 20,562 people bearing surname Doyle in Ireland, of this 19,827 are marked down as Roman Catholic (96.42%), take into account that in period 1901-1911 that Roman Catholics maded up about 73-75% of population (the census is 20 years before Partition), that would hint to me that Hugenot's who only arrive in Ireland post the "War of two Kings" (eg. 1691 onwards) didn't contribute hugely to makeup of people bearing the surname Doyle in Ireland.

It's fairly obvious given both distrubution throughout Ireland as well as number of surname variations (Doyle, McDowell, McDougal, O'Dowell etc.) that there were probably several independent occurrences of the name, all descended from different titular Dubhghall's (Dougal == anglisced variant of name).

Obviously one of the families is known to be of Hebridean origin been Gallowglasses, such an origin could point towards Gall-Ghaeil origin (eg. Norse-Gael)

Rory Cain
12-03-2015, 11:31 AM
Dubhthach, apparently I did the wrong thing in outing that troll, but now that it's done, I don't think you have to worry any further about his claims, including the alleged Norman D'Orly origin and whether they were L21 or became Irish O'Doyles. It was all a red herring. That would be why you didn't find any D'Orlys in Ireland, despite your best efforts.

estevard
01-09-2016, 05:42 AM
This discussion kicked off with the proposition of there being dark or black Irish. This was dismissed as a ‘New World trope’, as was the notion that Armada survivors might be their progenitors.

As a ‘colonial d’une autre coleur’ (Australian), I think this reflex tendency to blame the Americans is just a bit unfair.

It may be that the source of this ‘trope’ is entirely indigenous but largely forgotten in the place of its birth while lingering as a folk memory in some parts of the ‘New World’. A linguistic analogy: the strong terminal ‘r’ that features in some North Eastern US speech patterns is retained from the Elizabethan speech of the early English settlers but has largely vanished where it originated.

I offer as (admittedly feeble) evidence the following snippet from wikipedia about Avoch on the Moray Firth in Scotland: “Legend has it that the village was founded by survivors of the Spanish Armada.” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoch] The source of the legend is not identified but it is hardly likely to have been the New World.

As a further contribution to this debate, and linking the vegetable digression (turnips versus pumpkins) with the whole vexed issue of putting the word “black” anywhere near the word “Irish”, I offer the following lament from:—

The Farmer and Settler, Tuesday, 17 June 1913, page 7
[http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/116103587]

"BLACK" NOT "IRISH" BLIGHT.

An Irishman's Complaint.

An expert agricultural visitor from
Ireland (Mr. M'Carthy) objects to the
present potato blight, in Australia be-
ing called "Irish" blight, he says:
—"I do not see why you should call
it Irish blight. Your disease in the
potatoes is the 'black' blight, until re-
cently so common in Ireland, which is
the disease to be found amongst the
potato crops on the Continent and else-
where. So why 'Irish' blight? No
matter what precautions are taken, you
may expect that disease to make its
appearance in the potato crops wher-
ever the weather conditions are favor-
able. The weather conditions essen-
tial to the spread of the disease may be
said to be a moist, muggy atmosphere
and moisture in the ground. Given
these conditions, the disease is almost
certain to make its appearance. The
disease known by agriculturists of the
Commonwealth as 'Irish' blight, which
is really black blight, was known on
the Continent long before it was dis-
covered in Ireland."

Dubhthach
01-09-2016, 09:19 AM
Official policy of Dublin castle regime was that all Spanish survivors who came ashore in 1588 were to be put to sword (there are several Spanish armada mass graves in Ireland), all those who aid them were to be subjected to punitive action (including death and seizure of land), given that Scotland was a separate Kingdom at peace with the Spanish in 1588 it's not a comparable situation. If anything those Spanish who did survive landing in Ireland only did so because they managed to get to Scotland, which as a neutral gave them sanctuary. The account of Francisco de Cuellar is fairly typical of what happened to those lucky to get out of Ireland alive.

Leaving that aside Ireland was a majority Irish speaking island until 1800, it's only after this date that english became majority language, there is no equivalent of term "Black Irish" in the Irish language. If anything the term "Fear Dubh" (Black Man) is a name for the devil (someone with black skin is "Fear Gorm" -- "Blue man" in comparison)

Heber
01-09-2016, 11:34 AM
The "Black Irish" of Montserrat and Barbados were descendants of Cromwell's deportees.

https://youtu.be/0QHYFXDGf4Y

https://pin.it/JlL5mCR

Maurice Gleeson runs the Irish Caribbean Ancestry Reconnection by DNA (iCARA) project.

https://youtu.be/WzEQCmQdBhw

John Cleary runs the Scottish Prisoners Battle of Dunbar DNA project, many of whom suffered the same fate.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/scottish-po-ws/about/background

saxonlander
01-17-2016, 12:59 PM
First yes I am related to the person SwedeLover. 2nd that person - my brother - has about as much knowledge of DNA as a mouse trying to do engineering and as subtle as a bull-in-a-china shop. So in short, ignore him.


Now, I tried this on another forum and decided to ask here as well given as the other forum has some absolute nut whom as per their own DNA are of Germanic descendent but insist they are Celtic Irish. And comes up with some absolute wonderful BS to "prove" they are. Being as I am of Irish roots the guy just gets under my skin because when other posters poke Titanic sized holes in the "research" he/she then gets offensive :P


Anyways some of you may have heard of black Irish - fair skin, dark hair, dark eyes.

I doubt many of you have heard of dark Irish - whom are dark skinned, dark haired, and dark eyed.


My great grandfather was a dark Irishman. He was dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed - I won't say if they are common or not, as the term is rarely used nowadays, so the average person probably mistakes mix-bloods as being dark Irishmen - and great-granddad is one reason why some of my relatives [including my brother who last year all summer with conservation / outside could have passed for someone from the Mediterranean yet remove the high sun exposure of the summer - winter - and he goes back to pale with a slight hint of a tan] tan rather than burn in the sun.

Now before people start saying oh some African [slave] mix-blood descendent... my African DNA as per a number of DNA sites is pretty much nonexistent, however, my Spanish / Iberian DNA [and to a smaller extent Italian] is rather high [in fact, as per Geno 2.0 my 2nd reference population is actually Greek which was rather surprising as Greek doesn't even register on other sites].



Removing the dub of "Celtic" the people themselves are of Mediterranean descendent long before they moved to Germany - Europe and then into the UK. They were, after all, displaced by the Romans and the Romans forefathers. The word Gaul, which is oftentimes applied to the Celts as well, is Roman after all.

The modern Mediterranean are of Celtic / Roman background [specifically the La Tene Celts] - while the modern European/UKers are Celtic / Viking/German background [La Tene + Hallstatt]. Hence the difference in skin tone / complexion.



This is my father's forefather.

My thing is, is if I use dad's DNA the DNA is rarer.

There is hardly any matches on such sites as 23&me. FTDNA from the Y side matches with 8 other males, and if I am reading the Y "relation" properly we don't share a common relative in over 500 years. His DYS results are typically smaller in number [so older] than the so called Irish modals available in most. And his Y SNPs match only 13 people - including 3 1800s Spanish.

Now if I use DNA from dad's side - from women whom would have inherited some of the X from the forefather [the dark Irishman] or other male relatives - it turns out there their DNA is almost as rare. I mean despite the fact that this is a VERY old familial clan in Ireland there is actually very little relation to Ireland as per DNA [probably because the DNA samples used on pretty much every site are far more modern - so Viking Irish if you would]. Using FTDNA's mtDNA origins for example on one female relative to his familial clan gives us <0.1% Irish, 0.1% English/UK, and 1% Moldova - of the 56 countries listed her DNA has "hits" with 21 countries [compared to my mum's mtDNA which has some % with every single country] and a number of them have older [Iraq / Latvia] populations.


So my thing is - everyone says the Celts [or any true descendants] are "dead". Are they, or are the people researching simply looking in the wrong place?

I mean as said, my familial clan is OLD. Our non-anglicized name is said to have come from a single word in the Gaulish / Celtic language [and really the anglicized version is so off from the non-anglicized it is incredible] for our characteristic of battle and our family is traced clearly back to the 2nd Century [200 AD] though there is good possibility we went back to 500 BC. This is unlike some of the other so called "celtic" families whose names are often adopted from one or two celtic words or named after something of celtic origin. In this sense, they weren't named by Celts or have any real ties to the Celts but attempt to "fudge" to seem authentic... we were named specifically by Celtic/Gaulish origins.

There is no such thing as a "specific" dark Irish. Your father happens to be very dark-haired, dark-eyed and Irish. Nothing special!

alan
01-17-2016, 04:16 PM
The thing is by isles standards Irish hair is not particularly dark. From the modern stats I have seen Scots only have fractionally less dark hair. It was clearly very common to have dark brown hair as an adult in the less Germanic settled parts of the isles. However remember that by the standards of Europe (with the exception of the populations along the continental North Sea and Baltic coast areas who are small in numbers) the darker haired parts of the isles are not dark at all and as light as all of central Europe and much lighter than Med. countries. So certainly the Germanics had blonder hair but they are an exception.

Med. people like the Romans coming up to the Celtic lands and the isles would have still seem the Celts they encountered in central and then north-west Europe as significantly lighter haired, bluer eyed and taller than them as is still the case today in the same areas if you look at modern pigment maps. They had not yet encountered Germanics who had even lighter hair. I think people dont seem to realise the Romans were talking in RELATIVE terms. That doesnt require that the Celts they encountered to look like Dolph Lundgren. If the Romans encountered Celts in Europe who looked like a bunch of Irish and Scots do today they would find them distinctive just as today they would immediately be able to tell a crowd of soccer fans from those countries visiting Rome. Individuals may pass as a local but a larger group of foreigners almost always are obvious to locals. The fried beacon red face of isles people visiting hot countries is usually a dead giveaway LOL

BillMC
03-29-2016, 07:56 PM
Are these 'Dark Irish' people racially/genetically related to the Silures of Wales?

dnoone
03-29-2016, 10:29 PM
8500
My grandmother from west of Ireland.

dnoone
03-29-2016, 10:30 PM
8500
My grandmother from west of Ireland.

ThirdTerm
03-30-2016, 02:02 AM
The Black Irish is a pejorative term used to describe Irish people with dark features, black hair, a dark complexion and dark eyes, which cannot be explained by African or Near Eastern admixture. Haplogroup frequencies in Ireland are: I1 6%, I2a 1%, I2b 5%, R1a 2.5%, R1b 81%, J1 1%, G2a 1% and E1b1b 2%. The Irish people predominantly belong to R1b that is also common in the Iberian peninsula and the R1b people are thought to have arrived from Anatolia. R1b is also associated with red hair and 10% of the population in Ireland are naturally red-haired. The Celts are the R1b people who maintained their ethnic integrity better than the British, based on the low frequencies of Scandinavian haplogroups introduced by Norse migrations, while the British Isles were completely overrun by the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings during the 9th and 10th centuries. The Black Irish are pure Celts without Scandinavian admixture, who are largely found in rural areas of Ireland, where Norse settlements weren't established. On the other hand, the Irish people living in urban and coastal areas such as Dublin, marked red in the historical map, have significant Norse admixture (I1, I2a, I2b).



I2b2 is a very rare subclade of Haplogroup I and was only discovered in May 2005. It is purely European. There is still much to discover about it, but its story is being advanced by gifted hobbyists such as Hans de Beule who has published a number of articles on the wanderings of I2b2 people. Haplogroup I was one of the earliest groups to settle on the continent around 40,000 years ago. Today I2b2 is thinly spread over Europe but its frequency is highest in the Upper Rhine region of Germany, making it a likely point of origin around 6-7,000 years ago. Given its subsequent spread across Europe over the millenia, it is entirely possible that I2b2 people moved northwards into Denmark and possibly southern Norway to eventually become Vikings. Certainly, there were complex movements of peoples all over the Continent over this period, complicating the DNA picture considerably.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Vikings-in-British-Isles.jpg

Scandinavian communities in northern England and Ireland merged with the local populations, as evidenced by the modern connection between Danish and German I2b2 samples with northern English and Irish ones, suggesting that some I2b2s mingled with north German and Scandinavian populations and migrated to England and Ireland as Vikings. The impact on culture and language of this Anglo-Scandinavian assimilation in northern England is still felt to this day, particularly in the distinctive dialects of English spoken in the north, which can still be unintelligible to people from the south!

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Web-Rimmer-NW-Europe.jpg

This map, courtesy of Worldnames showing the modern distribution of people with the surname Rimmer in northwest Europe supports this. It shows an unusually high concentration in west Lancashire, as well as a moderate frequency in Denmark (and a very low frequency in Norway and Sweden). A prehistoric origin, or an Anglo-Saxon origin, would explain a more uniform frequency of I2b2s from the continent across the length and breadth of England, but does less to explain the later presence of a high concentration of people with a common surname in such a localised area.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/y-dna-test-i-am-a-viking-ok/

David Mc
03-30-2016, 02:07 AM
Haplogroup frequencies in Ireland are: I1 6%, I2a 1%, I2b 5%, R1a 2.5%, R1b 81%, J1 1%, G2a 1% and E1b1b 2%. The Irish people predominantly belong to R1b that is also common in the Iberian peninsula and the R1b people are thought to have arrived from Anatolia. R1b is also associated with red hair and 10% of the population in Ireland are naturally red-haired. The Celts are the R1b people who maintained their ethnic integrity better than the British, based on the low frequencies of Scandinavian haplogroups introduced by Norse migrations, while the British Isles were completely overrun by the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings.

This model (Anatolian) is badly out of date... I think you've been pointed towards the latest data on another thread.

Dubhthach
03-30-2016, 11:19 AM
The Black Irish is a pejorative term used to describe Irish people with dark features, black hair, a dark complexion and dark eyes, which cannot be explained by African or Near Eastern admixture. Haplogroup frequencies in Ireland are: I1 6%, I2a 1%, I2b 5%, R1a 2.5%, R1b 81%, J1 1%, G2a 1% and E1b1b 2%. The Irish people predominantly belong to R1b that is also common in the Iberian peninsula and the R1b people are thought to have arrived from Anatolia. R1b is also associated with red hair and 10% of the population in Ireland are naturally red-haired. The Celts are the R1b people who maintained their ethnic integrity better than the British, based on the low frequencies of Scandinavian haplogroups introduced by Norse migrations, while the British Isles were completely overrun by the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings during the 9th and 10th centuries. The Black Irish are pure Celts without Scandinavian admixture, who are largely found in rural areas of Ireland, where Norse settlements weren't established. On the other hand, the Irish people living in urban and coastal areas such as Dublin, marked red in the historical map, have significant Norse admixture (I1, I2a, I2b).

That map is badly wrong with regards to extent of Viking settlement in Ireland, there was never that amount of settlement. In context of Leinster the following is alot more accurate:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin-vikings.jpg

Jean M
03-30-2016, 12:23 PM
Are these 'Dark Irish' people racially/genetically related to the Silures of Wales?

In very general terms, excluding fairly recent arrivals, the populations of Britain and Ireland have a lot in common genetically. Both populations descend from the same mixture of inputs: Mesolithic, early farmer and Bell Beaker, followed by varying amounts of Anglo-Saxon, Viking and Norman, not to mention movement between the two islands. But anyone hoping to work out the genetics from appearances is liable to get sucked into a swamp of speculation.

Hair, eye and skin colouring varies in Ireland and Wales, just as it does in all of Europe. On average, these colourings get darker from north to south in Europe. This leads to stereotypes. Stereotypes make for quick and easy recognition of strangers and probably were very useful in insecure times past. "Looks unfamiliar" would be a good reason for children to run and hide and men to get their weapons out to be on the safe side.

However stereotypes can be a nuisance in genealogy. They lead to false expectation and the construction of myths to "explain" normal variation. The Romans, encountering more pale colouring in northern Europe than they found at home, succumbed to stereotype-creation. Tacitus was convinced that the Germani all had 'wild blue eyes, reddish hair and huge frames'. Finding that the Caledonians of northern Britain fitted the same description, he supposed that they were of Germanic stock! By contrast the swarthy faces and curly hair of the Silures of south Wales he attributed to Iberian descent. He was wrong. And so are we liable to go wrong if we can't get beyond the superficial.

I would be amazed to learn that every single Caledonian was actually a redhead in Roman times! Just as I would be astonished to learn that every single Silurian was swarthy with curly hair. These would just be stereotypes created from a greater predominance of a particular phenotype. Both the Silures and the Caledonians presumably derived from the same mix of incoming, Celtic-speaking Bell Beaker people c. 2400 BC and the local farmers whose ancestors had brought farming to Britain c. 4000 BC. Just by chance it might happen that one particular male or female ancestor ended up with more descendants in one part of Britain than another. If that ancestor carried a gene for red hair, you would get more red-heads. And so on. Genetic drift is the technical term.

Stephen1986
03-30-2016, 01:56 PM
.

I have Rimmer ancestors myself from North Meols, as well as large amounts of ancestry from all over North West England, which is where I'm from.

moesan
04-06-2016, 05:43 PM
In very general terms, excluding fairly recent arrivals, the populations of Britain and Ireland have a lot in common genetically. Both populations descend from the same mixture of inputs: Mesolithic, early farmer and Bell Beaker, followed by varying amounts of Anglo-Saxon, Viking and Norman, not to mention movement between the two islands. But anyone hoping to work out the genetics from appearances is liable to get sucked into a swamp of speculation.

Hair, eye and skin colouring varies in Ireland and Wales, just as it does in all of Europe. On average, these colourings get darker from north to south in Europe. This leads to stereotypes. Stereotypes make for quick and easy recognition of strangers and probably were very useful in insecure times past. "Looks unfamiliar" would be a good reason for children to run and hide and men to get their weapons out to be on the safe side.

However stereotypes can be a nuisance in genealogy. They lead to false expectation and the construction of myths to "explain" normal variation. The Romans, encountering more pale colouring in northern Europe than they found at home, succumbed to stereotype-creation. Tacitus was convinced that the Germani all had 'wild blue eyes, reddish hair and huge frames'. Finding that the Caledonians of northern Britain fitted the same description, he supposed that they were of Germanic stock! By contrast the swarthy faces and curly hair of the Silures of south Wales he attributed to Iberian descent. He was wrong. And so are we liable to go wrong if we can't get beyond the superficial.

I would be amazed to learn that every single Caledonian was actually a redhead in Roman times! Just as I would be astonished to learn that every single Silurian was swarthy with curly hair. These would just be stereotypes created from a greater predominance of a particular phenotype. Both the Silures and the Caledonians presumably derived from the same mix of incoming, Celtic-speaking Bell Beaker people c. 2400 BC and the local farmers whose ancestors had brought farming to Britain c. 4000 BC. Just by chance it might happen that one particular male or female ancestor ended up with more descendants in one part of Britain than another. If that ancestor carried a gene for red hair, you would get more red-heads. And so on. Genetic drift is the technical term.


I agree about stereotypes
But I think some statistical differences exist(ed) and are/were not a result of pure hazard; by the way the differences in more than a trait, and pigmentation among them, show that the variation today is not so strong among genuine Welsh regions than among Scottish regions, region by region speaking (I agree in every place exist individuals with different features). These differences are explained by history and ancestry and very few by only drifts according to myself (I trust myself, too much?!?). What is true today can have been true in past; and Siluri could have been a truly special tribe where at the time the today mix of ancestors was not already fully achieved. The same for Caledonians; that said I have no data about ancient Caledonians (the name seems celtic to me) which could confirm they were germanic by origin.
detail: pigmentation of eyes/hairs does not follow a full pattern of North-South opposition. The selection of responsible genes is not so straightaway and simplistic than believed by someones.

Jean M
04-06-2016, 07:10 PM
The same for Caledonians; that said I have no data about ancient Caledonians (the name seems celtic to me) which could confirm they were germanic by origin.

The Caledonians were Celtic. That is why it seems so amusing to modern Scots that Tacitus thought red hair = Germanic.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-06-2016, 07:32 PM
Certain features tend to stand out from the norm I think. Red haired people for example tend to get noticed, as might blonde hair and blue eyes in a population where such features are uncommon. We tend to notice the unusual or striking, whereas numerically such people might not be that common and may give us a slightly false impression.

rms2
04-06-2016, 11:35 PM
Certain features tend to stand out from the norm I think. Red haired people for example tend to get noticed, as might blonde hair and blue eyes in a population where such features are uncommon. We tend to notice the unusual or striking, whereas numerically such people might not be that common and may give us a slightly false impression.

That is true, and I know the first part of this is just anecdotal, but when I was in Ireland and Wales, I sure saw a lot of redheads, especially young people, and here you and I are, both of Welsh ancestry, and you carry two red hair variants, and I carry one.

Now look at BritainsDNA's map of the frequency of red hair variant carriers based on results from its Red Head Test:

8616

moesan
04-07-2016, 09:45 PM
Certain features tend to stand out from the norm I think. Red haired people for example tend to get noticed, as might blonde hair and blue eyes in a population where such features are uncommon. We tend to notice the unusual or striking, whereas numerically such people might not be that common and may give us a slightly false impression.

TRUE, but the fact Siluri were not noticed as red hairs (statement exagerated or not) COULD be of some releavance, EXCEPT IF the observation was very inaccurate, made upon a too litlle sample...all the way it's too late to verify it to date.

moesan
04-07-2016, 09:48 PM
I add I think the admixtures analysis are not yet so accurate and precise some believe. But we can already see the European Hg's were not so level according to places; the antrhopology, so often moked, shows even WHG is a not too precise concept. Future could tell us one day I think.

BillMC
04-14-2016, 07:01 PM
In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.

Yes, like the Black Douglas - Sir James Douglas (also known as Good Sir James and the Black Douglas) (c. 1286 – 1330) was a Scottish knight and feudal lord. He was one of the chief commanders during the Wars of Scottish Independence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Douglas,_Lord_of_Douglas

Anath
04-29-2016, 09:00 AM
My maternal grandpa and his parents were 'dark Scots/Welsh' with black hair, olive skin and blue eyes. His mtdna is j1b1a and features not due to any 'racial admixture'. Here's a young pic.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11062315_1657683404454965_400325031102382259_n.jpg ?oh=e9e85adad0e44533f52df1878f3de14b&oe=57A52594

jdean
04-29-2016, 10:14 AM
My maternal grandpa and his parents were 'dark Scots/Welsh' with black hair, olive skin and blue eyes. His mtdna is j1b1a and features not due to any 'racial admixture'. Here's a young pic.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11062315_1657683404454965_400325031102382259_n.jpg ?oh=e9e85adad0e44533f52df1878f3de14b&oe=57A52594

Which of these two are we supposed to be looking at, from the photo the fellow in the foreground wouldn't stand out in any Uk or Ireland town center.

Anath
04-29-2016, 11:20 AM
Which of these two are we supposed to be looking at, from the photo the fellow in the foreground wouldn't stand out in any Uk or Ireland town center.

My maternal grandpa and in the pic, they were on holiday in Singapore. Yes, i know he looks quite ambiguous but people used to make comments at him asking if he was Italian often, a big immigration group to Australia from the 50s.

jdean
04-29-2016, 12:42 PM
My maternal grandpa and in the pic, they were on holiday in Singapore. Yes, i know he looks quite ambiguous but people used to make comments at him asking if he was Italian often, a big immigration group to Australia from the 50s.

I suppose that's the thing, variations in phenotypes across Europe are subtle but differ even in the same environment. I haven't used skin block since I was kid (even on skiing holidays) but have seen people who come from the same area blister even though they were using high factor lotions. My ancestry is 99% British going back this last 200 yrs with a dab of Irish.

Anath
04-29-2016, 01:16 PM
I suppose that's the thing, variations in phenotypes across Europe are subtle but differ even in the same environment. I haven't used skin block since I was kid (even on skiing holidays) but have seen people who come from the same area blister even though they were using high factor lotions. My ancestry is 99% British going back this last 200 yrs with a dab of Irish.

I'm full British at least on my mums side, but the only one to have inherited the dead white skin and reddish brown hair, no one else has it.
Most Australians aren't that smart and believe too many stereotypes when it comes to phenotypical looks, i was always asked was i irish.. the one thing i'm not, simply because i'm pale xD real creative, guys.

jdean
04-29-2016, 03:27 PM
I'm full British at least on my mums side, but the only one to have inherited the dead white skin and reddish brown hair, no one else has it.
Most Australians aren't that smart and believe too many stereotypes when it comes to phenotypical looks, i was always asked was i irish.. the one thing i'm not, simply because i'm pale xD real creative, guys.

Skin tone is effected by a lot of things, one of which is age, if you compare me to my grandchildren I appear very dark but against a weather beaten farmer I'd probably look quite pallid.

Somebody posted images of an albino Indian family a while back who looked Scandinavian.

Anath
04-29-2016, 11:46 PM
Skin tone is effected by a lot of things, one of which is age, if you compare me to my grandchildren I appear very dark but against a weather beaten farmer I'd probably look quite pallid.

Somebody posted images of an albino Indian family a while back who looked Scandinavian.

I'm 28 but one of my sisters has dark olive skin and the other is just a beige white tanned girl, so i guess the genes came out in extremes :P
Hah i should have a look at that pic.. but from what my boyfriend says, Scandinavians usually tan to the level of my beigey sister.