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JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-06-2015, 06:47 AM
As someone who isn't an expert on the Celts, I found the first programme in this 3- part BBC series about the early Celts interesting, particularly the first contact between the Celts and Romans in Tuscany, with not a good outcome for the Romans.
There was a suggestion that at the same time as the early Hallstatt (Austrian Alps) Celtic presence, written language evidence (Phoenician writing) has been found of a Celtic presence in Portugal and probably Spain.
What was not clear to me was whether they were saying that these were Central European and "Iberian" peoples who had the same origins or were they different peoples sharing a culture? Were they suggesting the early Celts may have migrated into central Europe from the West? There was also comment to the effect that recent discoveries may show that iron-age Celtic sword shapes ( leaf-shaped ) were based on earlier bronze-age sword shapes discovered in the British Isles, possibly implying an early flow of "Celtic Culture" out of the Isles into mainland Europe, rather the other way around? Pure speculation, nonsense, I don't know.
Sorry the link may not be accessible outside the UK.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQqQIwAGoVChMIm_u0rZetyAIVxEgUCh3_iwU9&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fiplayer%2Fepisode %2Fb06h3ytf%2Fthe-celts-blood-iron-and-sacrifice-with-alice-roberts-and-neil-oliver-episode-1&usg=AFQjCNESVD6kG4Z8ks0E6iUCtqQf9t7Tqg&sig2=eGnFdBk4L9Zjy6AfG2xBTw

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-06-2015, 07:30 AM
Just pondering the bronze age in the Isles, it is quite noticeable from this map how copper and tin deposits are largely concentrated in the West of mainland UK and Ireland and later on, iron ore in Wales. Could mineral wealth create and drive a culture?

6196

MacUalraig
10-06-2015, 09:00 AM
Watched it last night but think I will replay it on the iPlayer. Luckily I have Jean's new book to fill in the gaps :-) There is something about the Phoenicians in Iberia and a map on p. 95.

Will they get on to DNA in the later programmes though as it was noticeable by its absence?

Jean M
10-06-2015, 09:03 AM
I enjoyed it, but a few bits were grating. If I hear the word "sophisticated" from an archaeologist, I sigh, because this almost invariably means "I'm trying really, really hard to convince you that people without hot baths, central heating, literacy and bureaucracy could still have an interesting culture with a lot to offer." I prefer just to get on with telling people about the culture, and what is appealing about it, which in the case of the Celts is not difficult at all.

Also a four-wheeled vehicle is a wagon, not a chariot.

However these are small quibbles. It was overall a feast for the eyes and ears. It did the stuff that television does best, with its reconstructed battles and walks over the scenery. Can't put that in a book! :)

Jean M
10-06-2015, 09:05 AM
Just pondering the bronze age in the Isles, it is quite noticeable from this map how copper and tin deposits are largely concentrated in the West of mainland UK and Ireland and later on, iron ore in Wales. Could mineral wealth create and drive a culture?

It certainly did in the case of Bronze Age Britain and Ireland. Having both copper and tin gave the inhabitants a head start in western Europe in making bronze.

alan
10-06-2015, 09:18 AM
Just pondering the bronze age in the Isles, it is quite noticeable from this map how copper and tin deposits are largely concentrated in the West of mainland UK and Ireland and later on, iron ore in Wales. Could mineral wealth create and drive a culture?

6196

One thing not to lose sight of is that metal probably gained value with distance from source. So it is perhaps not surprising that the wealthiest beaker and early Bronze Age graves seem to come from area where middlemen lived, not at the metal sources.

Heber
10-06-2015, 09:25 AM
Just pondering the bronze age in the Isles, it is quite noticeable from this map how copper and tin deposits are largely concentrated in the West of mainland UK and Ireland and later on, iron ore in Wales. Could mineral wealth create and drive a culture?

6196

The idea that Celtic emerged early as a Lingua Franca in Bronze Age Atlantic Europe is behind Cunliffe and Koch, Celtic from the West, Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages and Indo-European from the East, Celtic from the West.
6203
The old idea that Celtic emerged late from the Iron Age Halstatt and Le Tene Culture is dated. I am glad the latest documentaries are picking up on this.
Ancient DNA from Eastern Europe tells us the Steppes (probably Maikop) play a major role in the expansion of the early branches of R1b.
There is evidence of a stelae trail from Maikop to Iberia which was probably one of the routes used by the Bell Beakers as well as the Mediterranean and Danube and Rhine / Rhone valleys. We still need ancient DNA from Western Europe to clarify the expansion of the later branches of R1b and in particular P312.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/bell-beaker-migrations/
https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Anglecynn
10-06-2015, 10:00 AM
It was a good documentary, not perfect but good overall. Was ironic that they went for the stereotypical 'battle scenes' which were so-so, but i suppose they are just a visual filler after all.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-06-2015, 11:50 AM
I look forward to try and find this show.
Sigh in advance as I bet it's not available in Oz.

J1 DYS388=13
10-06-2015, 12:00 PM
This is where it is viewable here in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06h3ytf/the-celts-blood-iron-and-sacrifice-with-alice-roberts-and-neil-oliver-episode-1

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-06-2015, 12:45 PM
Watched it last night but think I will replay it on the iPlayer. Luckily I have Jean's new book to fill in the gaps :-) There is something about the Phoenicians in Iberia and a map on p. 95.

Will they get on to DNA in the later programmes though as it was noticeable by its absence?
This is what I tend to find frustrating, excavating Saxons, Celts etc. all over the place, but where is the DNA! ? :)

J1 DYS388=13
10-08-2015, 06:56 AM
This historian didn't like the way the show hopped back and forth in time ---
http://www.historytoday.com/rachel-pope/celts-blood-iron-and-sacrifice

VinceT
10-08-2015, 06:38 PM
I would like to view this myself soon, but I'm worried that it may treat the alleged impenetrable divide between Celtic and Germanic tribes as if there were an ocean between them, and not just a few hundred kilometers of land and a river or two.

J1 DYS388=13
10-08-2015, 08:13 PM
I don't think I heard the word Germanic in episode 1.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-13-2015, 04:47 AM
I would like to view this myself soon, but I'm worried that it may treat the alleged impenetrable divide between Celtic and Germanic tribes as if there were an ocean between them, and not just a few hundred kilometers of land and a river or two.

I found the second programme entertaining, but no doubt others will know more about it's short-comings.
Generally there does seems to be a tendency to describe "blocks" of people neatly moving around a landscape completely independently from each other. The perception could be that at a point in time one group conveniently disappears completely whilst another suddenly appears.This doesn't seem to apply so much to Roman civilisation where it seems to be acknowledged more that it was a multi-cultural and diverse society. There was a reference at the end of the programme to the Romanisation of the Celts, but what about in earlier periods I wonder?

rncambron
10-21-2015, 07:32 PM
I have now watched all three parts of the BBC series and found them visually entertaining and in some parts enlightening eg the exposition on metal working skills.
However I was somewhat discomfited by the book that accompanies the series.On page 252 Professor Alice Roberts discusses DNA.It is clear her input is derived from Cunliffe(Britain Begins) and incredibly Oppenheimer and is therefore out of date.
I had hoped books stating that the 'Iberian Glacial Refugium' was the principle source of Britain's DNA were a thing of the past.Apparently not.

MikeWhalen
10-21-2015, 07:52 PM
Thanks for pointing this series out John

the links you gave did not work for me in Canada, but I found the series on u tube...everyone should be able to get it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA-itb5NwDU

Mike

Jean M
10-21-2015, 09:18 PM
However I was somewhat discomfited by the book that accompanies the series. On page 252 Professor Alice Roberts discusses DNA.It is clear her input is derived from Cunliffe (Britain Begins) and incredibly Oppenheimer and is therefore out of date.
I had hoped books stating that the 'Iberian Glacial Refugium' was the principle source of Britain's DNA were a thing of the past. Apparently not.

Good grief! I'm very disappointed to learn that. I did tell her about Ancestral Journeys. I know that she has relied on Oppenheimer in the past, as indeed has Barry Cunliffe, but I hoped that I was making some headway.

rms2
10-21-2015, 11:26 PM
I've watched parts 1 and 2 on You Tube and was pleasantly surprised, since I usually expect Celtoskeptic-infected schlock from the media where the Celts are concerned.

Kwheaton
10-22-2015, 01:20 AM
I need a sanity check.....who were the earliest inhabitants of the British Isles? And where did they come from? I hear the Picts mentioned in the North....but honestly I always feel as if something is missing. The people appear before the Celts or were their earliest incarnations. So many cultures who are spoken of as discrete but probably were no more discrete than current inhabitants of any borderlands where language, food, money, art seems to bleed across the boundaries.

Did early people from Europe migrate to the Isles and back migrate into the mainland.....are as I suspect, a rich mix of peoples from all over mixing it up some 5,000-7,000 and traveling the coastlines trading as they went. It just makes sense to me whether or not there is good evidence. I watch as a bystander watching the sometimes heated debates of this origin over that. Did L21 arise from the Isles, Iberia or from East to West. I do not know the answers to any of these questions and I feel at a severe disadvanatge in the converstaions --- but I tend towards Jean's more complex explanations. If there is anything consistent throughout history it is that we often try to impose some historical simplistic explnation and then someday we are stung with some new evidence or truth.

I am reading broadly on this topics but I still feel something is missing? Am I alone?

Jean M
10-22-2015, 10:07 AM
I need a sanity check.....who were the earliest inhabitants of the British Isles? And where did they come from?

Back to Ancestral Journeys - preferably use the latest edition, the paperback out this year, as this includes the latest from ancient DNA:


The earliest Homo sapiens inhabitants of Britain were Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. I have a map on p. 51 to show how they entered Europe. They did not get as far as Ireland.
Then came the Ice Age which covered much of the Isles with sheets of ice. See map p. 58. Britain was deserted by animals and humans.
As the ice retreated both animals and their human hunters moved north from Iberia and southern France to populate Britain and Ireland. These were the first Homo sapiens to enter Ireland. See chapter 4 in AJ. The dominant mtDNA haplogroups of these people across Europe were U4 and U5, and the dominant Y-DNA was haplogroup I. Autosomally their signature is Western Hunter-gatherer (WHG).
Farmers arrived in the British Isles c. 4000 BC from across the Channel. This was a late arrival of farming - so late that it was dominated by dairy farmers. See chapter 6. Across Europe the farmers brought a new range of mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups. The predominant Y-DNA haplogroup was G2a. Autosomally their signature was new to Europe and has been labelled Early European Farmer (EEF).
Bell Beaker brought metallurgy to the British Isles c. 2400 BC. See chapter 10. This culture forms part of the wave from the European steppe carrying a range of new cultural traits, and a new autosomal DNA signature, dubbed Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE). The dominant Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a and R1b. It is deduced that this wave of newcomers carried the earliest Indo-European languages to enter the British Isles. I think that by the end of the Bell Beaker period this had settled to Celtic.



I hear the Picts mentioned in the North..

"Picts" was just the Roman name for the Celtic tribes north of the Roman frontier in Britain. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celticscothighlands.shtml

rms2
10-22-2015, 12:02 PM
. . .
Generally there does seems to be a tendency to describe "blocks" of people neatly moving around a landscape completely independently from each other . . .

I think that tendency comes from the need to generalize and present the big picture in order to make things understandable in a reasonable amount of time. I don't think anyone, with perhaps a few exceptions, really thinks things are always so neat and tidy; however, if one becomes bogged down in minutiae, possible exceptions, and this and that detail, complication and caveat, he will never get anywhere.

Try describing or drawing a simple leaf, for example. Unless one wants to spend a lifetime on its every intricate detail, he's going to have to focus on the big picture.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-22-2015, 12:53 PM
Thanks for pointing this series out John

the links you gave did not work for me in Canada, but I found the series on u tube...everyone should be able to get it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA-itb5NwDU

Mike

You are welcome Mike. I'm glad you were able to find it.

Kwheaton
10-22-2015, 01:49 PM
Back to Ancestral Journeys - preferably use the latest edition, the paperback out this year, as this includes the latest from ancient DNA:


The earliest Homo sapiens inhabitants of Britain were Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. I have a map on p. 51 to show how they entered Europe. They did not get as far as Ireland.
Then came the Ice Age which covered much of the Isles with sheets of ice. See map p. 58. Britain was deserted by animals and humans.
As the ice retreated both animals and their human hunters moved north from Iberia and southern France to populate Britain and Ireland. These were the first Homo sapiens to enter Ireland. See chapter 4 in AJ. The dominant mtDNA haplogroups of these people across Europe were U4 and U5, and the dominant Y-DNA was haplogroup I. Autosomally their signature is Western Hunter-gatherer (WHG).
Farmers arrived in the British Isles c. 4000 BC from across the Channel. This was a late arrival of farming - so late that it was dominated by dairy farmers. See chapter 6. Across Europe the farmers brought a new range of mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups. The predominant Y-DNA haplogroup was G2a. Autosomally their signature was new to Europe and has been labelled Early European Farmer (EEF).
Bell Beaker brought metallurgy to the British Isles c. 2400 BC. See chapter 10. This culture forms part of the wave from the European steppe carrying a range of new cultural traits, and a new autosomal DNA signature, dubbed Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE). The dominant Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a and R1b. It is deduced that this wave of newcomers carried the earliest Indo-European languages to enter the British Isles. I think that by the end of the Bell Beaker period this had settled to Celtic.




"Picts" was just the Roman name for the Celtic tribes north of the Roman frontier in Britain. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celticscothighlands.shtml

Jean,

Thanks for the recap....I do think you make my point very well. We have waves of different Haplogroups which with comings and goings are going to be constantly mixing up the gene pool, clustering and dispersing. Their identities are mostly defined by outsiders who are not the best sources of information even if they are our only source. We have DNA that does not stay put any more than the people who carry it and we try to recreate the reality of how it happened from the shreads of evidence we find now. I guess as a relative newcomer to these ancient worlds the bewildering array of theories terminology etc are hard to wrap one's head around and there's such a lack of information at the earliest eras that we me have the same name WHG for a fairly diverse group of people even if we can cluster their atDNA.

I guess my gut tells me that there are a few surprises coming in the next ten years that may turn things on their head and prove that some things as are we expected. At least I am starting to get the lay of the land and the language so I shall keep plodding on....

Jean M
10-22-2015, 02:45 PM
.. there's such a lack of information at the earliest eras that we me have the same name WHG for a fairly diverse group of people even if we can cluster their atDNA. ... I guess my gut tells me that there are a few surprises coming in the next ten years that may turn things on their head

We now have a lot more Y-DNA for the earlier eras than I had in Ancestral Journeys (2013) and there certainly have been surprises. Some Y-DNA haplogroups that are vanishingly rare in Europe today appear in earlier eras. The revised version of AJ is not out in the US yet, but the aDNA results are online:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Heber
10-22-2015, 03:28 PM
I can now watch episode 1,2 and 3 on Youtube. Previously episode 1 was blocked.
The quality is very good and the photography stunning.
There is a lot of focus on the Iron Age, Halstatt, Le Tene and very little so far on the Bronze Age.
I will reserve judgement until I watch all three episodes.

rms2
10-24-2015, 02:42 PM
I just finished watching Episode 3. I think that, overall, the series was pretty good. No mention of Celtoskeptic hogwash about there never having been any Celtic peoples, in fact, just the opposite. Excellent!

I really enjoyed the bit about the recreation of the Celtic chariot, and the segment on Roman infantry tactics. Having been a big city policeman myself who has served in a few serious riots, I can appreciate how the Romans, although outnumbered, were able to successfully deal with chaotic individual fighters through their superior organization, discipline and tactics. Although we weren't killing people, our riot tactics, right down to use of the big shields and long batons (in place of the gladius or pilum), and the "stomp-and-drag" forward march, have changed little since Roman times.

A very well done and enjoyable series. Beats the heck out of anything else I have seen done on the Celts in a very long time.

Heber
10-24-2015, 10:42 PM
I finished all episodes. It is an excellent series with beautiful artefacts and photography. The battle recreations were interesting. I would have liked to see a some discussion on genetic evidence and a bit more on Bronze Age and even the transition from Bell Beaker. It is a good companion to the British Museum Exhibit, Celts Art and Identity.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celts-art-and-identity/

rms2
10-25-2015, 02:17 AM
I get the impression that Neil Oliver is a good guy, and Alice Roberts is certainly easy on the eyes. Btw, I noticed that Alice Roberts had an accent in which "ow" is pronounced kind of like a long "i". What sort of accent is that? Roberts is a Welsh surname. Is Alice Welsh?

Jean M
10-25-2015, 09:39 AM
Is Alice Welsh?

She was born in Bristol. Her accent is not Welsh, though her surname may well be.

It was the fact that she worked at one time at Bristol University (like Time Team's Mick Aston) that brought her into television via Time Team.

Jean M
10-25-2015, 10:26 AM
No mention of Celtoskeptic hogwash about there never having been any Celtic peoples, in fact, just the opposite.

John Koch is the key there I think. When I was still writing Blood of the Celts, I made it clear to Alice Roberts that I do not support Celtoscepticm, and the producer of the series was interested in my book and in contact with my publisher about it. But in the end the team evidently went for Koch and Cunliffe. Can't really blame them. These are two of the most distinguished Celticists in the country. John Koch had no hesitation in including the Insular Celts in his excellent Celtic atlas and encyclopedia. He uses the same definition of a Celt as I do - someone who spoke a Celtic language. So following him meant that the team could boldly use the word that everybody recognises, with academic blessing. The price was climbing on board the Celtic-from-the-West train.

rms2
10-25-2015, 01:38 PM
. . . The price was climbing on board the Celtic-from-the-West train.

That's not such a high price, and the engineers on board that train are certainly well qualified. I may not be ready to stoke the engine myself, but it beats riding the Celtoskeptic train to nowhere.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x2m6i4KFqg

Jean M
10-25-2015, 03:40 PM
beats riding the Celtoskeptic train to nowhere.

Ancient DNA is shunting the Celtosceptic train into a siding where it can sit and rust. :) As I have been saying elsewhere, the argument of the Celtosceptics is that there is no proof of a genetic relationship between the Continental and Insular Celts. Given proof of such a relationship from ancient DNA, their case disintegrates. Won't be long now, I'd say, before we have it neatly tied up.

The problem for both the exhibition and the TV series was that they were planned before aDNA had even started that job, and we are still missing vital pieces of the puzzle. So they missed their chance to present a solid story that effectively kills Celtosceptism.

seferhabahir
10-25-2015, 09:27 PM
She was born in Bristol. Her accent is not Welsh, though her surname may well be.

It was the fact that she worked at one time at Bristol University (like Time Team's Mick Aston) that brought her into television via Time Team.

I watched the series a couple days ago (and enjoyed it quite a bit), but while watching Alice and listening to her accent, I was constantly reminded of Karine Hagen (the spokesperson for Viking Cruises), since they look similar, probably because of their haircuts and also have similar speech mannerisms. I have no idea what accent either one of them really has. Karine's father is Torstein Hagen, who is Norwegian, and Karine spent a lot of time in Russia, but obviously she had some kind of British education. You can find Karine's videos all over the web (and on TV).

alan
10-25-2015, 10:02 PM
I have now watched all three parts of the BBC series and found them visually entertaining and in some parts enlightening eg the exposition on metal working skills.
However I was somewhat discomfited by the book that accompanies the series.On page 252 Professor Alice Roberts discusses DNA.It is clear her input is derived from Cunliffe(Britain Begins) and incredibly Oppenheimer and is therefore out of date.
I had hoped books stating that the 'Iberian Glacial Refugium' was the principle source of Britain's DNA were a thing of the past.Apparently not.

There is of course truth in the fact that the reoopulation of Europe (except italy' the Balkans and south Ukraine/south Russia and Urals) after the glacial maximum was from south France and Spain but this is therefore much of Europe's story not Atlantic specific.

rncambron
10-25-2015, 10:55 PM
Suggest you buy the book and read it.
page 252
'Y-Chromosome data suggests that around 75% of British and Irish ancestors arrived even before the first farmers got here,in the Neothilic'
As I said in my original quote this is outdated nonsense

Jean M
10-26-2015, 11:14 AM
Suggest you buy the book and read it.
page 252
'Y-Chromosome data suggests that around 75% of British and Irish ancestors arrived even before the first farmers got here...' As I said in my original quote this is outdated nonsense

It certainly is. The only thing I can say in extenuation is that Alice Roberts was given a very short time in which to write a book on a topic on which she is not an expert, while doing other things as well. Presumably she simply did not have time to read up on the genetics, and relied on Oppenheimer. Very sad, but she is not the first to do so.

The Celtic-from-the-West crew did so from the start. Prof. Cunliffe took Oppenheimer's rubbish on the British seriously and cited it. There was a paper by Oppenheimer in the first Celtic from the West volume. I pointed out that this was out of date and recommended Mark Jobling. Jobling spoke at a subsequent meeting in the series organised by Profs. Cunliffe and Koch. He said in so many words that Oppenheimer was not taken seriously by geneticists and had got things wrong. Yet Oppenheimer has been invited to take part in the next such meeting at the end of this month. I'll report back on whether Oppenheimer has now accepted that the world has moved on.

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 11:47 AM
I think the works of Oppenheimer and all will end up having a very long "half-life". I note for example that recently published "The Irish Paradox" by broadcaster Sean Moncrieff (whose quite a good radio host) even mentions the old "Haplogroup 1" and "Basque connection" in chapter 1 (it's basically just a paragraph or two). The fact that people are still using designations such as "Haplogroup 1" in 2015 shows how much of a mountain we have to climb given how widely read stuff like Oppenheimer was and how much it often forms the public conscious when it comes to debate.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=4zmLCgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20irish%20paradox&pg=PT20#v=onepage&q&f=false

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "but the insular populations don't match DNA of continental Celts" argument comes from idea that we all just bunch of lost Basques as propagated by likes of Oppenheimer (of course it played into Celto-sceptism as "hey look we were right!") ;) Of course given that they had no aDNA from a "continental Celtic" archaeological context I always found that a rather weird assertion ;)

Jean M
10-26-2015, 12:36 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "but the insular populations don't match DNA of continental Celts" argument comes from idea that we all just bunch of lost Basques as propagated by likes of Oppenheimer (of course it played into Celto-sceptism as "hey look we were right!") ;)

The first Celtosceptics in the 1990s were operating in the era of Cavalli-Sforza and classical DNA markers. Cavalli-Sforza interpreted the data as showing evidence of a wave of Neolithic farmers entering Europe and then another wave from the steppe bringing Indo-European languages. That did not suit most archaeologists at the time. Then around 2000 we had the counter-blast from (modern) mtDNA, interpreted by Bryan Sykes, Martin Richards and a whole slew of other geneticists smitten with the population continuity worship then current in archaeology. The archaeologists loved this so intelligent (!) approach, lapped it up and did indeed cite it as proof that they were right about Celtoscepticism and the whole anti-migrationist paradigm.

Heber
10-26-2015, 01:42 PM
You can read much of Alice Roberts book The Celts on Google Books.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=KeL3CAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

There is a very comprehensive Timeline at the beginning.

It is misleading to judge Celtic from the West by the work of Oppenheimer.
John Koch gives a better interpretation in "Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West."
Koch links the Tartessian Stelae to those found in Kemi Oba and Maykop.
I look forward to reports of his presentation later this week.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-celts/

A point Cunliffe and Koch make is that the story of Bronze Age Atlantic trading is under represented in the Celtic studies which have traditionally emphasised Iron Age Halstatt and La Tene.

"Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa."

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-bronze-age/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-bronze-age-gold/

Jean M
10-26-2015, 02:44 PM
You can read much of Alice Roberts book The Celts on Google Books.

Thanks. That immediately settles the question of how she deals with Celtosceptism - i.e. pretty sensibly. :) That's in the introduction.

Jean M
10-26-2015, 03:05 PM
It is misleading to judge Celtic from the West by the work of Oppenheimer.

I don't Gerard, don't worry. I have judged the theory on linguistic grounds. Or rather I should say that it does not appear to be gaining support from linguists other than Prof Koch himself, and I can see why. The counter-arguments are persuasive. This does not mean that I think all of Koch's ideas are wrong. How can I, when he has pinched some from me? ;)

Nor do I think that all of Sir Barry's ideas are wrong. Heavens! I've been a huge admirer of his work for years. I feel that "Celtic from the West" has usefully brought Iberia and the Atlantic route into the limelight. The Celts of Iberia have been somewhat neglected, with all the focus on Hallstatt and La Tene. As you know, I feel that there is clear evidence of some movement along the Atlantic. I just don't feel that this was the route of initial Celticisation.

razyn
10-26-2015, 04:24 PM
I spent a little time with Koch's slides (or whatever that was, the Academia site linked by Heber in post #40). Actually found several things to agree with, somewhat to my surprise. I do think that whole Oxford Press crowd has a lot to answer for, but their colorful books and conference papers seem to keep a lot of other people interested, even if it's only at the level of footnoting their misconceptions. It's all good clean fun.

Jean M
10-28-2015, 11:24 PM
The TV series is now available on DVD: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B015ZXCS06/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3

Heber
10-30-2015, 02:07 PM
I don't Gerard, don't worry. I have judged the theory on linguistic grounds. Or rather I should say that it does not appear to be gaining support from linguists other than Prof Koch himself, and I can see why. The counter-arguments are persuasive. This does not mean that I think all of Koch's ideas are wrong. How can I, when he has pinched some from me? ;)

Nor do I think that all of Sir Barry's ideas are wrong. Heavens! I've been a huge admirer of his work for years. I feel that "Celtic from the West" has usefully brought Iberia and the Atlantic route into the limelight. The Celts of Iberia have been somewhat neglected, with all the focus on Hallstatt and La Tene. As you know, I feel that there is clear evidence of some movement along the Atlantic. I just don't feel that this was the route of initial Celticisation.

A major feature of the recent British Museum Celts, Art and Identity exhibition and Alice Roberts book, The Celts and the associated BBC series, Celts Blood, Iron and Sacrifice, was centered the magnificant Iron Age, La Tene, Torcs from Vix, Snettesham, Gundestrup, Glauberg etc.
However many of the Gold Bronze Age Irish Torcs and Lunulae (80% of those found in Europe) predate La Tene.
They are matched by similar finds in Portugal and NW Iberia (Galicia).

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-torcs/

Heber
10-30-2015, 04:01 PM
Interesting piece in today's Irish Times on the Celts.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/who-were-the-celts-it-s-complicated-1.2410501

Jean M
10-30-2015, 04:24 PM
However many of the Gold Bronze Age Irish Torcs and Lunulae (80% of those found in Europe) predate La Tene.
They are matched by similar finds in Portugal and NW Iberia (Galicia).

Yes I said that in my lecture in Dublin. ;) But I also pointed out the so-called "basket earrings" (more probably hair binders) in the National Museum of Ireland, that compare with the pair found with the Amesbury Archer, who came from near the Alps.

The earliest BB arrivals in Ireland were not necessarily the ones who brought Celtic. In fact I don't see how they can be, if there are some place-names which appear to be in an earlier form of Indo-European. That cannot have arrived before BB. So the earliest BB was IE-speaking, but not yet Celtic-speaking. That is my thinking.

Nor were the earliest BB arrivals in Ireland necessarily the ones whose descendants proliferated the most. The people who mined at Ross Island were a small band. They could have carried R1b-DF27. But the predominant clade in Ireland today is L21, which most probably arrived along the Rhine route. Obviously we need a lot more ancient DNA to really sort this out. For all we know at the moment, L21 could have arrived in the later waves from the Continent in the Iron Age! There are very big gaps in our knowledge.

Jean M
10-30-2015, 05:41 PM
Interesting piece in today's Irish Times on the Celts.

I'm glad that Julia Farley is not just playing to the archaeological establishment in this interview.

rossa
10-31-2015, 05:40 PM
Jean, just wondering during your time at the Dublin conference did you run into many Celtosceptics?

Jean M
10-31-2015, 06:40 PM
Jean, just wondering during your time at the Dublin conference did you run into many Celtosceptics?

If there were any present, they weren't heckling me.

rms2
10-31-2015, 09:13 PM
Yes I said that in my lecture in Dublin. ;) But I also pointed out the so-called "basket earrings" (more probably hair binders) in the National Museum of Ireland, that compare with the pair found with the Amesbury Archer, who came from near the Alps.

The earliest BB arrivals in Ireland were not necessarily the ones who brought Celtic. In fact I don't see how they can be, if there are some place-names which appear to be in an earlier form of Indo-European. That cannot have arrived before BB. So the earliest BB was IE-speaking, but not yet Celtic-speaking. That is my thinking.

Nor were the earliest BB arrivals in Ireland necessarily the ones whose descendants proliferated the most. The people who mined at Ross Island were a small band. They could have carried R1b-DF27. But the predominant clade in Ireland today is L21, which most probably arrived along the Rhine route. Obviously we need a lot more ancient DNA to really sort this out. For all we know at the moment, L21 could have arrived in the later waves from the Continent in the Iron Age! There are very big gaps in our knowledge.

Gimbutas believed Indo-European speakers arrived in Ireland early in the 4th millennium BC at the end of her Kurgan Wave I. She saw the Linkardstown Barrows as evidence of their presence.

This is from page 216 of The Civilization of the Goddess:



The Linkardstown tombs of eastern-central Ireland are a totally different type [from the Neolithic tombs of Ireland]. These are found in stone cists under round mounds, but unlike all of the megalithic tombs they are not receptacles for communal burials but are for single burials only. The eight that are considered in the Linkardstown group, and an additional twenty-two which are considered related, all contained the unburnt remains of an adult male. These burials are indications of the primacy of males within this culture. A few contained additional remains, usually a child or a younger person, and one site contained a cremation along with the inhumation. Although there may be more than one person in the tomb, the burial rite was performed only once and then the tomb was permanently closed. There is no evidence of an ongoing ritual as is present in the megalithic tombs.

The major grave good of these burials is a highly decorated round-bottomed clay bowl with a horizontal neck. The decoration covered the entire vessel and on all but one, a cruciform or rayed pattern covered the bottom . . .

These Linkardstown tombs are extremely important because they show the earliest evidence of single burial in Ireland and a completely different approach to burial than that provided by the megalithic tradition. They represent the Kurgan (Indo-European) tradition as convincingly demonstrated by Karlene Jones-Bley in her dissertation of 1989. Solar patterns on pottery belong to an alien ideology brought by people who buried their dead in single graves under round mounds. Analogies are known across the Channel in the Rhine and Upper Danube region where the earliest solar patterns emerged in the Rössen and Aichbühl-Schwieberdingen groups dated to the period of 4300-3900 B.C. (see chap. 10).


If she was right, then those people could be responsible for the Indo-European but non-Celtic place names in Ireland.

Jean M
10-31-2015, 10:26 PM
Gimbutas believed Indo-European speakers arrived in Ireland early in the 4th millennium BC at the end of her Kurgan Wave I. She saw the Linkardstown Barrows as evidence of their presence..... If she was right, then those people could be responsible for the Indo-European but non-Celtic place names in Ireland.

Interesting idea, but it looks like Alan is not convinced. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5515-Linkardstown-Barrows&p=111627&viewfull=1#post111627

V-X
11-01-2015, 03:06 AM
Yes this series was fairly pedestrian, which is not too surprising from the BBC these days who like to dumb down science. It's worrying when a clueless amateur like me can spot the nonsense spouted by so called experts.

Too much focus on the big names like Boudica and not enough on the people and culture. Was tartan really so popular in the iron age? That's something which stood out to me as being peculiar.

Still it was a fun show to watch and its nice to see that period discussed rather than the bloody Tudors yet again.

Jean M
11-01-2015, 08:35 AM
Was tartan really so popular in the iron age? That's something which stood out to me as being peculiar.

A weave similar to tartan was preserved in the salt mine at Hallstatt. Perhaps that was not explained in the section on the mine. I don't recall.

Jenny
11-01-2015, 10:47 AM
Yes, but Neil Oliver Is always fun to listen to

rozenfeld
11-01-2015, 10:50 AM
The woman from Huldremose’s skirt has a checkered pattern: http://sciencenordic.com/dyed-clothes-came-fashion-early-iron-age

This is from Denmark, so unlikely Celtic, but it seems that indeed this pattern was popular.

rms2
11-01-2015, 11:52 AM
Interesting idea, but it looks like Alan is not convinced. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5515-Linkardstown-Barrows&p=111627&viewfull=1#post111627

I would like to see the dissertation mentioned by Gimbutas:



They [i.e., the Linkardstown Barrows] represent the Kurgan (Indo-European) tradition as convincingly demonstrated by Karlene Jones-Bley in her dissertation of 1989.


Apparently Jones-Bley actually studied those barrows.

rms2
11-01-2015, 01:42 PM
Apparently Jones-Bley's dissertation is entitled, The Earliest Indo-European burial tradition in neolithic Ireland, and may be available via inter-library loan: The Earliest Indo-European burial tradition in neolithic Ireland (http://www.worldcat.org/title/earliest-indo-european-burial-tradition-in-neolithic-ireland/oclc/602389209).

avalon
11-01-2015, 03:19 PM
I enjoyed this series, particularly the third episode although I thought it was inaccurate to refer to Cornish as a living, Celtic language in the same way that Welsh, Gaelic and Breton are still spoken as community languages.

Only a tiny number of people actually speak Cornish fluently and this is more down to recent attempts to revive the language. Technically, I believe it died out in the 18th century.

Heber
11-01-2015, 05:23 PM
A weave similar to tartan was preserved in the salt mine at Hallstatt. Perhaps that was not explained in the section on the mine. I don't recall.

And don't forget the Bronze Age, Tarim Basin Mummies, who wore a well preserved tartan weave similar to that of Halstatt and Scotland.

Although the mummies have been found in various locations within the basin, and vary in age, they all share one further common feature; the high quality of the woven textiles they were buried with, many of them with a tartan pattern. Even more intriguing, the tartan patterns uncovered in Chinese Turkestan resemble not only those of the old Hallstatt culture (bi-coloured twill weave or three coloured plain weave) but also those of Scottish tartans (multi-coloured twill), which are not found anywhere else.

http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.nl/2014/01/of-tartan-celts-and-long-dead-mummies.html?m=1

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WY0acUCvZEs

vettor
11-01-2015, 05:32 PM
in the program it states that they found bronze-age celtic swords in britain at least 150 years older than bronze-age celtic swords in Halstatt. Which makes them think that the celts went from west to east in migration ..........so southern germany area was a late area. portugal was mentioned as a starting place.

vettor
11-01-2015, 05:40 PM
in program 2, it showed the area of modern france which was gallic/celtic and southern France was not part of it. The show even mentioned that the celts went to trade with non-celtic people in southern france .
I stated before that the romans never associated southern france with celtic. the only people mentioned in history thre where ibres and ligres people with some greek towns.


what do people think about the celtic alphabet found in portugal which suggests it was phoenician in origin?

Heber
11-01-2015, 07:30 PM
what do people think about the celtic alphabet found in portugal which suggests it was phoenician in origin?

Professor Alice Roberts says it is a Phoenician Alphabet but a Celtic Language.

http://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

http://www.historyireland.com/pre-history-archaeology/tartessian-europes-newest-and-oldest-celtic-language/

http://www.academia.edu/5980789/The_Atlantic_Fringe_hypothesis_for_the_Celtic_home land_and_the_Tartessian_inscriptions

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/