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Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 11:59 AM
It seems that J has been found in one of the EHG samples from Karelia:


In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1)

Not long ago, I recall saying something along the lines of "We simply don't know where J came from, for all I know it could've come from the Pontic-Caspian steppe". Many a true word said in jest, seems reality is slowly catching up with my sense of humour (I know Karelia isn't the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but still, at this rate J1 will be found in a Yamna sample) :P

Throw in the fact that J2a was also found in sample I0708 from Barcın Hyk and this becomes even more confusing. We have different samples with radically different autosomal profiles carrying Y-DNA J. Either the association, between specific uniparental lineages and ancient components is inherently flawed or we're simply not seeing the full picture here.

Either way, this goes on to prove that contemporary data is utterly unreliable... I mean, Karelia looks more serious a contender than the Transcaucasus as J's homeland. Of course, I'm expecting this to change, but one thing's for sure: The J tribe was a pretty mysterious one.

ZephyrousMandaru
10-11-2015, 12:20 PM
What subclade of J did the EHG Karelian belong to? The Barcin farmer belonged to J2, so do you think it might be J1 or J2?

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 12:34 PM
What subclade of J did the EHG Karelian belong to? The Barcin farmer belonged to J2, so do you think it might be J1 or J2?

It's just J*, at least judging by the SNPs (PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291).

J1 DYS388=13
10-11-2015, 12:43 PM
These two branches of J1 Z1828 are European

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.kQRaWcsg-lmU&usp=sharing

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k_oKfltPsiqI&usp=sharing

and they don't have any known Anatolian relatives within about 7,600 years, according to http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

I suppose these could be the oldest European branches of J1. But no ancient samples of J1 have been found.

RCO
10-11-2015, 12:43 PM
We do not know what type of J was found in Karelia. We can find some pretty basal J1 types in Finland nowadays
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/
If we can find the concentration of modern basal types of J1 (and some J2) around Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran we can observe that area as the dispersion point of the modern distribution. In one summer an individual can move from the Caspian Sea to Karelia if unopposed and of course the basal types of R1 changed from Mal`ta to the modern European phenotypes in contact with Northern Near Eastern DNA.

J1 DYS388=13
10-11-2015, 12:53 PM
Rico, what does the abbreviation PJL mean in http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ ?

DMXX
10-11-2015, 01:02 PM
Rico, what does the abbreviation PJL mean in http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ ?

They are Punjabis from Lahore (http://www.1000genomes.org/category/frequently-asked-questions/samples).

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 01:33 PM
We do not know what type of J was found in Karelia. We can find some pretty basal J1 types in Finland nowadays
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/
If we can find the concentration of modern basal types of J1 (and some J2) around Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran we can observe that area as the dispersion point of the modern distribution. In one summer an individual can move from the Caspian Sea to Karelia if unopposed and of course the basal types of R1 changed from Mal`ta to the modern European phenotypes in contact with Northern Near Eastern DNA.

J-Y6304 also came to mind, but I kind of doubt it has anything to do with this sample. It's equally likely we're looking at an unsuccessful branch of J which managed to make it into the EHG genepool. J is pretty old after all, old enough for an early branch of J* to make its way northwards prior to the Mesolithic.
Like I said, we're probably not seeing the full picture here.

ZephyrousMandaru
10-11-2015, 02:00 PM
I think this lends to support to the notion that J could very well be a proto-WHG lineage. Perhaps this unsuccessful lineage could have branched off and migrated towards Europe, while Middle Eastern J went in its in own direction. It could have been overrun by more success haplogroup lineages.

J Man
10-11-2015, 09:28 PM
This truly is quite fascinating. I never expected a Y-DNA haplogroup J sample to show up anywhere in Mesolithic Europe and especially not Karelia of all places! But it has shown up. The recent study entitled ''Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe'' tested the DNA of another Mesolithic individual from the Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov site among many others from various time periods. No subclade is listed for this individual and he is just called ''J''. He may truly belong to J*. There is a good chance that he comes from an extinct line of Y-DNA haplogroup J that migrated to Europe during either the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic and died out. When it comes to autosomal DNA he is very similar to the other EHG (Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers) samples that have been tested so far and his mtDNA haplogroup is U4a. Very interesting stuff!

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit?pli=1#gid=0

J Man
10-11-2015, 09:47 PM
It seems that J has been found in one of the EHG samples from Karelia:



Not long ago, I recall saying something along the lines of "We simply don't know where J came from, for all I know it could've come from the Pontic-Caspian steppe". Many a true word said in jest, seems reality is slowly catching up with my sense of humour (I know Karelia isn't the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but still, at this rate J1 will be found in a Yamna sample) :P

Throw in the fact that J2a was also found in sample I0708 from Barcın Hyk and this becomes even more confusing. We have different samples with radically different autosomal profiles carrying Y-DNA J. Either the association, between specific uniparental lineages and ancient components is inherently flawed or we're simply not seeing the full picture here.

Either way, this goes on to prove that contemporary data is utterly unreliable... I mean, Karelia looks more serious a contender than the Transcaucasus as J's homeland. Of course, I'm expecting this to change, but one thing's for sure: The J tribe was a pretty mysterious one.

J is a very old haplogroup and is a brother to haplogroup I. It could easily be the case that this Y-DNA J sample from Mesolithic Karelia belonged to a very old J branch that migrated to Europe during the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic while the more common types of J such as J1 and J2 we see today mainly stayed behind in West Asia/Near East. This J sample from Mesolithic Karelia probably belongs to a type of J that is now extinct.

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 10:06 PM
J is a very old haplogroup and is a brother to haplogroup I. It could easily be the case that this Y-DNA J sample from Mesolithic Karelia belonged to a very old J branch that migrated to Europe during the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic while the more common types of J such as J1 and J2 we see today mainly stayed behind in West Asia/Near East. This J sample from Mesolithic Karelia probably belongs to a type of J that is now extinct.

That's also what I tend to think, we're in dire need of ancient Near Eastern data though.

J Man
10-11-2015, 10:18 PM
That's also what I tend to think, we're in dire need of ancient Near Eastern data though.

We definitely need more ancient DNA from the Near East. Still though this J sample from Mesolithic Karelia is mind blowing!

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 10:24 PM
We definitely need more ancient DNA from the Near East. Still though this J sample from Mesolithic Karelia is mind blowing!

Oh yeah, no doubt about that. It certainly makes an association between J and some sort of early HG population far more likely in a Near Eastern context and could potentially provide an answer to the general paucity of J (both J1 and J2, especially the former) in Neolithic remains. It also goes on to show that we shouldn't rely on contemporary data too much and that we ought to keep an open mind. Considering all the surprises we've stumbled upon in Europe, I'm ready to bet the Near East's genetic past is bound to be full of surprises.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-11-2015, 10:31 PM
Oh yeah, no doubt about that. It certainly makes an association between J and some sort of early HG population far more likely in a Near Eastern context and could potentially provide an answer to the general paucity of J (both J1 and J2, especially the former) in Neolithic remains. It also goes on to show that we shouldn't rely on contemporary data too much and that we ought to keep an open mind. Considering all the surprises we've stumbled upon in Europe, I'm ready to bet the Near East's genetic past is bound to be full of surprises.

Ill say. If Europe has thrown curve balls, imagine what the entire "middle East" will show over the eons !

Il Pap
10-11-2015, 10:33 PM
The karelian sample was J* because of no-calls or negative downstreams ?

Anyway, we don't know what the original J bearers were like autosomally. This case makes me remember of the R1b (v88 supposedly) neolithic farmer guy which despite his Y-chromosome had no trace of ANE.

J Man
10-11-2015, 10:35 PM
Oh yeah, no doubt about that. It certainly makes an association between J and some sort of early HG population far more likely in a Near Eastern context and could potentially provide an answer to the general paucity of J (both J1 and J2, especially the former) in Neolithic remains. It also goes on to show that we shouldn't rely on contemporary data too much and that we ought to keep an open mind. Considering all the surprises we've stumbled upon in Europe, I'm ready to bet the Near East's genetic past is bound to be full of surprises.

I think that there is a chance that the J2a lineage found in this recent study in the Early Neolithic context from Anatolia may have come from an assimilated Anatolian forager originally. Only one J2a sample has shown up out of the 15 samples from that Early Neolithic group from Anatolia.

Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroups: 7 G2a, 1 G, 2 H2, 1 H, 1 I, 1 I2c, 1 J2a, 1 C1a2

J Man
10-11-2015, 10:37 PM
The karelian sample was J* because of no-calls or negative downstreams ?

Anyway, we don't know what the J bearers were like autosomally. This case makes me remember of the R1b (v88 supposedly) neolithic farmer guy which despite his Y-chromosome had no trace of ANE.

The Y-DNA J individual from Mesolithic Karelia in this study is pretty much exactly the same as the other R1 EHG samples when it comes to autosomal DNA.

Il Pap
10-11-2015, 10:47 PM
The Y-DNA J individual from Mesolithic Karelia in this study is pretty much exactly the same as the other R1 EHG samples when it comes to autosomal DNA.

I meant the original J bearers, not this one in particular. There is a strong evidence that the original R bearer was ANE like but for J, we don't know, we only have the autosomal profile of 2 sons, the karelian EHG one and the anatolian EEF one. We have also to keep in mind that J is older than R and much closer to the out of Africa event and WHG certainly formed much times after the first appearance of J and I .

J Man
10-11-2015, 10:55 PM
I meant the original J bearers, not this one in particular. There is a strong evidence that the original R bearer was ANE like but for J, we don't know, we only have the autosomal profile of 2 sons, the karelian EHG one and the anatolian EEF one. We have also to keep in mind that J is older than R and much closer to the out of Africa event and WHG certainly formed much times after the first appearance of J and I .

Ahhh okay well yeah we do not know what the original J bearers were like when it comes to autosomal DNA. At least not yet.

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 10:56 PM
Ill say. If Europe has thrown curve balls, imagine what the entire "middle East" will show over the eons !

My point exactly ;)


I meant the original J bearers, not this one in particular. There is a strong evidence that the original R bearer was ANE like but for J, we don't know, we only have the autosomal profile of 2 sons, the karelian EHG one and the anatolian EEF one. We have also to keep in mind that J is older than R and much closer to the out of Africa event and WHG certainly formed much times after the first appearance of J and I .

Well J is at least 30,000 years old, so there's plenty of time for an unsuccessful J branch to make it northwards during the Paleolithic and end up in the EHG gene pool... Like I said, we are in dire need of ancient data from the Near East at this point, and we should keep an open mind as a rule of thumb because the odds are that the Near East's genetic past was pretty complex.


I think that there is a chance that the J2a lineage found in this recent study in the Early Neolithic context from Anatolia may have come from an assimilated Anatolian forager originally. Only one J2a sample has shown up out of the 15 samples from that Early Neolithic group from Anatolia.

Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroups: 7 G2a, 1 G, 2 H2, 1 H, 1 I, 1 I2c, 1 J2a, 1 C1a2

Indeed, the paucity of J2a in Neolithic farmers is mind-boggling considering all the fancy theories which linked J2a's dispersal to that of agriculture from the Near East.

J Man
10-11-2015, 11:01 PM
My point exactly ;)



Well J is at least 30,000 years old, so there's plenty of time for an unsuccessful J branch to make it northwards during the Paleolithic and end up in the EHG gene pool... Like I said, we are in dire need of ancient date from the Near East at this point, and we should keep an open mind as a rule of thumb because the odds are that the Near East's genetic past was pretty complex.

Now this Y-DNA J sample from Mesolithic Karelia is just classified as J* correct? Is he negative for M267 and M172? No calls?

Agamemnon
10-11-2015, 11:03 PM
Now this Y-DNA J sample from Mesolithic Karelia is just classified as J* correct? Is he negative for M267 and M172? No calls?

Yep, just J* for the time being... I don't know whether this sample is truly negative for M267 and M172, it could very well be halfway in between either branch.

J Man
10-11-2015, 11:51 PM
Yep, just J* for the time being... I don't know whether this sample is truly negative for M267 and M172, it could very well be halfway in between either branch.

It will be interesting to see if any more J will show up as more Mesolithic Eastern European samples are tested.

Agamemnon
10-12-2015, 12:05 AM
It will be interesting to see if any more J will show up as more Mesolithic Eastern European samples are tested.

I concur, I sincerely hope someone will take the time to look into this... But let's say I'm not really optimistic, if all the J* in Soqotra still hasn't been looked into, I doubt someone will rush to look into this mysterious J case.

J Man
10-12-2015, 12:13 AM
I concur, I sincerely hope someone will take the time to look into this... But let's say I'm not really optimistic, if all the J* in Soqotra still hasn't been looked into, I doubt someone will rush to look into this mysterious J case.

Another sort of mysterious deal is the decent amount of J2b found among the Kola Saami in a study from a number of years ago. I can't find the link for this study but I remember reading that before. I did not really expect to see much of any J among the Saami at all.

royking
10-12-2015, 12:54 AM
I think that there is a chance that the J2a lineage found in this recent study in the Early Neolithic context from Anatolia may have come from an assimilated Anatolian forager originally. Only one J2a sample has shown up out of the 15 samples from that Early Neolithic group from Anatolia.

Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroups: 7 G2a, 1 G, 2 H2, 1 H, 1 I, 1 I2c, 1 J2a, 1 C1a2
This J2a also has a mtDNA that is N1b1a. N1b is common in Georgia 6.9%; NE Caspian in Iran 9.5% and among my n=88 Assyrians 4.5%. He could very well be an assimilated forager if J2a has a more northern and eastern distribution at this time. Most of the burials in the paper are infants/neonates. His is recorded as disturbed. Perhaps he was a trader or an assimilated forager. The autosomal PC plot will help if he is one of the 3 NW Anatolian Neolithic samples that seems to drift toward ANE.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-12-2015, 01:23 AM
This J2a also has a mtDNA that is N1b1a. N1b is common in Georgia 6.9%; NE Caspian in Iran 9.5% and among my n=88 Assyrians 4.5%. He could very well be an assimilated forager if J2a has a more northern and eastern distribution at this time. Most of the burials in the paper are infants/neonates. His is recorded as disturbed. Perhaps he was a trader or an assimilated forager. The autosomal PC plot will help if he is one of the 3 NW Anatolian Neolithic samples that seems to drift toward ANE.


Roy I know what you're getting at; but I don't think there were any foragers in Anatolia at this time :)

J Man
10-12-2015, 01:26 AM
Roy I know what you're getting at; but I don't think there were any foragers in Anatolia at this time :)

Yeah the individual himself was not a forager but his direct paternal line ancestor may have been an assimilated Northwest Anatolian forager. Very hard to say anything for sure though about this at this point anyway.

J Man
10-12-2015, 01:52 AM
Is there any information about the pigmentation alleles of this Y-DNA J EHG sample from Mesolithic Karelia?

paulgill
10-12-2015, 01:57 AM
I think this lends to support to the notion that J could very well be a proto-WHG lineage. Perhaps this unsuccessful lineage could have branched off and migrated towards Europe, while Middle Eastern J went in its in own direction. It could have been overrun by more success haplogroup lineages.

J1 Middle Eastern has many branches, the main one being P58. I am J1-P58-Z1853*, one branch of Z1853 seems to be basically in the Middle East while the other branches like mine are found in NW Europe, Armenia and India, relationships between these Z1853 branches appears to be some 5000 to 7000 years old.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-12-2015, 03:13 AM
I think the J in Mesolithic Europe makes sense, actually.

The late Mesolithic in EE shows links to NW - central Asia by way of the Kelteminar culture, various forms of microblades and ceramic styles skirting around the Caspian sea.

I know there are advocates of R1b being found in pre-Bronze Age central-western Asia (eg me). To me, this strengthens the case. If J was found in Karelia, why not R1 the south ??

Megalophias
10-12-2015, 03:29 AM
If J was found in Karelia, why not R1 the south ??
Because the only genetic contact between north and south was in the form of a stream of sexy farm-girls, preferably kidnapped on horseback. Duh. ;)

J Man
10-12-2015, 03:30 AM
Because the only genetic contact between north and south was in the form of a stream of sexy farm-girls, preferably kidnapped. Duh.

:lol:

DMXX
10-12-2015, 06:52 AM
Ill say. If Europe has thrown curve balls, imagine what the entire "middle East" will show over the eons !

Speaking of curve balls...

I'd absolutely love it if, by some bizarre processes of demographic flux, the Y-DNA J* in Soqotra has something to do with the Y-DNA J Mesolithic Karelian. :D

Anabasis
10-12-2015, 07:34 AM
If we dont argue Mesolithic C found in Europe as Mongolian no need to argue Mesolithic J as near eastern. Its very normal to find J where I exist as far as they are sister clades. J2a found in NW Anatolia is much more important which might e ancestral of millions of people along Mediterranean and middle east...

paulgill
10-12-2015, 08:00 AM
If we dont argue Mesolithic C found in Europe as Mongolian no need to argue Mesolithic J as near eastern. Its very normal to find J where I exist as far as they are sister clades. J2a found in NW Anatolia is much more important which might e ancestral of millions of people along Mediterranean and middle east...

There is tons of 10000 yrs old J2a in NW south Asia, possibly responsible for IVC, Mehrgarh and BMAC, J2b is present also.

J Man
10-12-2015, 06:13 PM
There is tons of 10000 yrs old J2a in NW south Asia, possibly responsible for IVC, Mehrgarh and BMAC, J2b is present also.

There are some very old examples of J2a out there in different parts of Eurasia I think. Same with J2b and certain types of J1. The vast majority of J2a, J2b and J1 today though likely spread around during the Neolithic I think.

Agamemnon
10-12-2015, 08:35 PM
There are some very old examples of J2a out there in different parts of Eurasia I think. Same with J2b and certain types of J1. The vast majority of J2a, J2b and J1 today though likely spread around during the Neolithic I think.

I seriously doubt that, to say the least... But again, I could be wrong.

J Man
10-12-2015, 09:39 PM
I seriously doubt that, to say the least... But again, I could be wrong.

Sorry I should have said ''started to spread around mainly during the Neolithic.'' The Bronze and Iron Ages were also important times for the spread and migrations of J2a, J2b and J1.

J Man
10-12-2015, 09:48 PM
Here is the ADMIXTURE plot from the Mathieson study. The Y-DNA J male from Mesolithic Karelia is one of the EHG samples. As we can see he is very similar to the other Y-DNA R1a male from Mesolithic Karelia and the R1b male from Mesolithic Samara when it comes to autosomal DNA.

http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/Mathieson_shwqaew.png

Trojet
10-12-2015, 09:51 PM
Balkan/European J2b2-L283 is still a mystery. The Neolithic spread of it from the Near East is questionable to me now that none of it was found in NW Neolithic Anatolia, same with E-V13. But again that's just one Neolithic site from a specific time, and of course no Neolithic or Bronze Age aDNA from the southern Balkans either to come to any conclusions.

J Man
10-12-2015, 09:53 PM
Balkan/European J2b2-L283 is still a mystery. The Neolithic spread of it from the Near East is questionable to me now that none of it was found in NW Neolithic Anatolia same with E-V13. But again that's just one Neolithic site from a specific time, and of course no Neolithic or Bronze Age aDNA from the southern Balkans either to come to any conclusions.

Yes keep in mind that the number of Neolithic samples from Anatolia is still low. J2b may show up there at some point but we need more ancient samples to see for sure. Same goes for E-V13.

J Man
10-13-2015, 02:15 AM
It is interesting to note that some modern day J* samples have been discovered in a variety of locations in Eurasia.

''Subclade distribution[edit]

Paragroup J-P209*[edit]

Paragroup J-P209*[Phylogenetics 1] includes all of J-P209 except for J-M267 and J-M172. J-P209* is rarely found outside of the island of Socotra, off the coast of Yemen, where it is quite frequent at 71.4%.[5] Haplogroup J-P209* also has been found with lower frequency in Oman (Giacomo 2004), Ashkenazi Jews,[6] Saudi Arabia (Abu-Amero 2009), Greece (Giacomo 2004), the Czech Republic (Giacomo 2004 and Luca 2007), Uygurs [7] and several Turkic peoples.[8] (Cinnioglu 2004 and Varzari 2006).

The following gives a summary of most of the studies which specifically tested for J-M267 and J-M172, showing its distribution in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-P209

Chad Rohlfsen
10-13-2015, 02:58 AM
http://www.zin.ru/labs/theriology/staff/sablin/references/mannermaa_et_al._2008.pdf

J Man
10-13-2015, 11:18 AM
http://www.zin.ru/labs/theriology/staff/sablin/references/mannermaa_et_al._2008.pdf

A great study/paper. Is the Y-DNA J male from that study you linked above by Kristiina Mannermaa, Andrei Panteleyev & Mikhail Sablin one of the samples from the graves they studied that had bird bones in it?

ADW_1981
10-13-2015, 12:54 PM
Balkan/European J2b2-L283 is still a mystery. The Neolithic spread of it from the Near East is questionable to me now that none of it was found in NW Neolithic Anatolia, same with E-V13. But again that's just one Neolithic site from a specific time, and of course no Neolithic or Bronze Age aDNA from the southern Balkans either to come to any conclusions.

A modern frequency of a haplogroup in a particular region, is completely different from looking at the ancient one. If you look at the frequency of G-P303 in the Balkans today for example, it would not be your first guess as the prime mover and shaker of farming in Europe.

Trojet
10-13-2015, 01:52 PM
A modern frequency of a haplogroup in a particular region, is completely different from looking at the ancient one. If you look at the frequency of G-P303 in the Balkans today for example, it would not be your first guess as the prime mover and shaker of farming in Europe.

Of course. And I'm not coming to any conclusions based on modern frequency. Without any ancient DNA, I could make the argument that J2b2-L283 could actually predate Neolithic G in the Balkans, since this subclade is almost exclusively found in the Balkans/Europe and the highest diversity of it is in the Balkans. Also the TMRCA according to YFull is 9700 years which would seem to predate the Neolithic:
www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

The same thing can be said about E-V13. It's "ancestor" E-L618 and anything downstream including E-V13 look very "Balkan" diversitywise and frequency wise:
www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

So both of these could actually be Mesolithic HG that didn't really mix up much with the Neolithic arrivals in the Balkans. Or on the other hand, based on expansion times (4300 ybp for both) a Bronze Age arrival in the Balkans could be proposed. But without a good sample of aDNA it's impossible to come to any such conclusions.

J Man
10-19-2015, 07:01 PM
Does anyone know if any pigmentation alleles were tested for this Y-DNA J male from Mesolithic Karelia?

parasar
10-22-2015, 06:55 PM
J is a very old haplogroup and is a brother to haplogroup I. It could easily be the case that this Y-DNA J sample from Mesolithic Karelia belonged to a very old J branch that migrated to Europe during the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic while the more common types of J such as J1 and J2 we see today mainly stayed behind in West Asia/Near East. This J sample from Mesolithic Karelia probably belongs to a type of J that is now extinct.

Are you of the opinion that J is older in West Asia/Near East than in Europe (incld. Anatolia)?

J Man
10-22-2015, 07:41 PM
Are you of the opinion that J is older in West Asia/Near East than in Europe (incld. Anatolia)?

Yes I am.

parasar
10-22-2015, 07:45 PM
Yes I am.

Thanks, and Y-I?

J Man
10-22-2015, 07:51 PM
Thanks, and Y-I?

I think that it is likely that Y-DNA haplogroup I originated in Europe.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-22-2015, 08:04 PM
I think that it is likely that Y-DNA haplogroup I originated in Europe.

Yes ; possibly entering as IJ *

parasar
10-22-2015, 08:07 PM
I think that it is likely that Y-DNA haplogroup I originated in Europe.

IJ formed ~46000ybp
I and J lines split ~43000ybp.
This split could have occurred either in Asia or Europe (incld. Analolia). I think a split in Europe is more likely, with J travelling east.

RCO
10-22-2015, 11:38 PM
It's strange they had only resolution to give the nomenclature of R1a and R1b and in the case of J only a general J* even when J1 and J2 are much older than R1a and R1b

J Man
10-23-2015, 12:26 AM
IJ formed ~46000ybp
I and J lines split ~43000ybp.
This split could have occurred either in Asia or Europe (incld. Analolia). I think a split in Europe is more likely, with J travelling east.

What makes you think that?

Agamemnon
10-23-2015, 12:41 AM
Personally, I think I originating in the Near East is equally likely.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-23-2015, 04:59 AM
What makes you think that?

I think he got the dates from YFull ?

I agree with Agamemnon that J* likely formed from the IJ which stayed in near east; I* from that which went to Europe

ZephyrousMandaru
10-23-2015, 05:33 AM
Europe wasn't even inhabited by our species until 40,000 years ago, Middle Easterners are also more genetically diverse than Europeans are. I don't see how IJ originally arose in Europe, the opposite seems more likely to me.

Mbantua
10-23-2015, 05:41 AM
I would not take the J* finding in a hunter/gatherer from Europe's east as being set in gold. Haplogroup testing in the J haplogroup is still in infancy as it is not the right haplogroup for Europeans being basically assigned to foreigners like Arabs and Jews. Most of the testing in the J haplogroup has been paid for by individuals of that haplogroup not by corporate or government funded Universities or scientists. I doubt that men in Socotra are J*. It is tens of thousands of years old, those men must have numerous haplogroup SNP mutations overlooked by researchers who are sticking with M267 and P58, and looking no further.

The bias for R1b and R1a1 is tremendous and distorting to all other haplogroups.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-23-2015, 07:52 AM
Europe wasn't even inhabited by our species until 40,000 years ago, Middle Easterners are also more genetically diverse than Europeans are. I don't see how IJ originally arose in Europe, the opposite seems more likely to me.

More like 47000; from Temneta Dupka, Bulgaria .
(AMS, calibrated).

J Man
10-23-2015, 12:55 PM
It's strange they had only resolution to give the nomenclature of R1a and R1b and in the case of J only a general J* even when J1 and J2 are much older than R1a and R1b

Well it could be the case that this Mesolithic sample from Karelia truly is just a basal Y-DNA J* type. Or it could be part of a branch of J that has just been discovered.

J Man
10-23-2015, 01:00 PM
I would not take the J* finding in a hunter/gatherer from Europe's east as being set in gold. Haplogroup testing in the J haplogroup is still in infancy as it is not the right haplogroup for Europeans being basically assigned to foreigners like Arabs and Jews. Most of the testing in the J haplogroup has been paid for by individuals of that haplogroup not by corporate or government funded Universities or scientists. I doubt that men in Socotra are J*. It is tens of thousands of years old, those men must have numerous haplogroup SNP mutations overlooked by researchers who are sticking with M267 and P58, and looking no further.

The bias for R1b and R1a1 is tremendous and distorting to all other haplogroups.

So you think that this Y-DNA J* Mesolithic hunter-gatherer sample from Karelia in reality could have more downstream mutations that are part of a different branch of haplogroup J rather than J1 or J2?

parasar
10-23-2015, 02:13 PM
I would not take the J* finding in a hunter/gatherer from Europe's east as being set in gold. Haplogroup testing in the J haplogroup is still in infancy as it is not the right haplogroup for Europeans being basically assigned to foreigners like Arabs and Jews. Most of the testing in the J haplogroup has been paid for by individuals of that haplogroup not by corporate or government funded Universities or scientists. I doubt that men in Socotra are J*. It is tens of thousands of years old, those men must have numerous haplogroup SNP mutations overlooked by researchers who are sticking with M267 and P58, and looking no further.

The bias for R1b and R1a1 is tremendous and distorting to all other haplogroups.

IMO there is no reason to disregard the J* finding in Eastern Europe. By J* of course we don't mean this is ancestral to J1 and J2, the time-frame makes this impossible. It is more likely a basal line to J1 and J2.

Edward J
10-23-2015, 03:20 PM
I would not take the J* finding in a hunter/gatherer from Europe's east as being set in gold. Haplogroup testing in the J haplogroup is still in infancy as it is not the right haplogroup for Europeans being basically assigned to foreigners like Arabs and Jews. Most of the testing in the J haplogroup has been paid for by individuals of that haplogroup not by corporate or government funded Universities or scientists. I doubt that men in Socotra are J*. It is tens of thousands of years old, those men must have numerous haplogroup SNP mutations overlooked by researchers who are sticking with M267 and P58, and looking no further.

The bias for R1b and R1a1 is tremendous and distorting to all other haplogroups.

What do you mean by J being 'not the right haplogroup for Europeans'? Are you implying an ethnocentric bias? I am new to this field of study, so I am not up to speed on how professional bias would be impacting research. Isn't the mainstream theory that R1s would have originated outside of Europe also?

Anabasis
10-23-2015, 04:39 PM
*** Anyway no need to argue with this kind people. I deleted my post.***

Sangarius
10-23-2015, 05:38 PM
Haplogroup testing in the J haplogroup is still in infancy as it is not the right haplogroup for Europeans being basically assigned to foreigners like Arabs and Jews. ...

lol wtf is this shit?

RCO
10-23-2015, 06:05 PM
We can easily detect nowadays what kinds and types of J SNPs are usually found in different places, as they can belong to whatever different ethnic and geographical groups in Europe or Asia and even possibly guess the religion and nationality in many cases because they have some pretty well organized ethno-historical clusters. I think the identities are clearly defined and the big question is about the ancient origins and movements. I have a pretty good idea just observing the J basal phylogenetic tree and of course we are still waiting archaelogical definitions and NGS-Y articles from the J types located in strategic places like Eastern Anatolia, Southern Caucasus, Northern Iran and the Caspian Sea. Of course types of J have been there since the IJ or J long lines of SNPs existed and autosomal genomes will be extremely interesting because R haplogroup moved from Central-Eastern Asia or from Sundaland while IJ has been around or relatively close to where they possibly were born and they are still found there nowadays. J is extremely geopolitical as the lands where they have been in the last 30000/20000 years.

J1 DYS388=13
10-23-2015, 07:01 PM
Ricardo,

Does what you know about Y-DNA J support this whole genome finding? ---

"We find in Armenians and other genetic isolates in the Near East high shared ancestry with ancient European farmers, with ancestry proportions being similar to present-day Europeans but not to present-day Near Easterners. These results suggest that genetic isolates in the Near East – Cypriots (an island population), Near Eastern Jews and Christians (religious isolates), and Armenians (Ethno-linguistic isolate) – probably retain the features of an ancient genetic landscape in the Near East that had more affinity to Europe than the present populations do..."

"Armenians’ genetic diversity reveals that the ancient Near East had higher affinity to Neolithic Europe than it does now, and that Bronze Age demographic processes had a major impact on the genetics of populations in this region."

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015206a.html

J Man
10-23-2015, 07:52 PM
This could possibly be solved if someone was able to get a hold of the Y-DNA J Mesolithic Karelian's raw data. For now he is just basal J*.

RCO
10-23-2015, 08:30 PM
Very interesting article. I don't know if the Y SNPs can be extracted from their files ?

J Man
10-23-2015, 09:03 PM
Very interesting article. I don't know if the Y SNPs can be extracted from their files ?

I do not know either unfortunately.

J Man
10-24-2015, 12:38 AM
Like I said before it still blows my mind that a Y-DNA J hunter-gatherer male has turned up in Mesolithic Karelia even if he is just J*. It is still important and really interesting.

J Man
11-21-2015, 12:11 AM
Have the Y-DNA files for this haplogroup J EHG been released? Anyone know?

RCO
11-24-2015, 12:12 AM
I think the Karelian J genome was released today Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians; I0211 UzOO40 Tooth - Y N EHG IGNORE IGNORE New 1240k data - 1 5500-5000 BCE 7015 7515 Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia Russia 61,65 35,65 0,136 149.746 M Yes 3.267.540 U4a J PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291 0,026

Supplementary Data 1 (101 KB )

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Datasets.html

Agamemnon
11-24-2015, 12:19 AM
I think the Karelian J genome was released today Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians; I0211 UzOO40 Tooth - Y N EHG IGNORE IGNORE New 1240k data - 1 5500-5000 BCE 7015 7515 Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia Russia 61,65 35,65 0,136 149.746 M Yes 3.267.540 U4a J PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291 0,026

Supplementary Data 1 (101 KB )

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Datasets.html

Already spoke of this here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5588-Y-Haplogroup-J-found-in-Karelian-Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer&p=113934&viewfull=1#post113934).

RCO
11-24-2015, 12:23 AM
I hope we can get more SNPs in the genome/file but I don't know how to read the data.

J Man
11-24-2015, 12:34 AM
Hopefully indeed something can be extracted from this.

ChrisR
11-24-2015, 02:58 AM
Likely J1b
See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5875-230-ancient-Eurasians-data-analysis-%28Mathieson-Reich-Haak-%29&p=122320&viewfull=1#post122320

victar
11-28-2015, 12:28 AM
I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.


CTS1138 +
CTS3210 +
CTS7412 +
YSC0001267 +
YSC0001262 +
YSC0000065 -
ZS127 -
ZS3573 -
ZS3601 -
ZS9577 -
ZS9579 -
ZS9580 -

paulgill
11-28-2015, 01:04 AM
I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.


CTS1138 +
CTS3210 +
CTS7412 +
YSC0001267 +
YSC0001262 +
YSC0000065 -
ZS127 -
ZS3573 -
ZS3601 -
ZS9577 -
ZS9579 -
ZS9580 -


Very interesting, and my WGS files are ready for you to update the J1 Tree. I have not downloaded them yet though.

Agamemnon
11-28-2015, 02:17 AM
I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.


CTS1138 +
CTS3210 +
CTS7412 +
YSC0001267 +
YSC0001262 +
YSC0000065 -
ZS127 -
ZS3573 -
ZS3601 -
ZS9577 -
ZS9579 -
ZS9580 -


Fascinating stuff, this sample being negative for YSC65 is quite telling IMO. It's unfortunate that F4306 and F1614 are no calls. I'd say this certainly suggests that the Caucasus was a J1 diversity hotspot, if not J1's homeland itself.

victar
11-28-2015, 06:22 AM
I'd say this certainly suggests that the Caucasus was a J1 diversity hotspot, if not J1's homeland itself.
Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html).

Agamemnon
11-28-2015, 01:24 PM
Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html).

I fail to see how the complete absence of J1 in all Neolithic remains to date as well as its presence in EHG and CHG samples is consistent with this narrative, if anything it does a big disfavour to this theory.

J Man
11-28-2015, 01:41 PM
Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html).

What? How is the finding of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 among an Upper Paleolithic man from the Caucasus and a Mesolithic man from Karelia consistent with J1 coming to Europe with Neolithic farmers? Not one J1 has shown up in any Neolithic remains yet.

RCO
11-28-2015, 02:08 PM
I think most of the European J1 is historical and related to historical migrations and wars in Europe arriving after the Iron Age or even after the Roman Empire. There's no homogeneity in the European J1 branches and the gaps can only be understood in reference to the J1 original lands because the European J1 clusters usually match more closely similar Near Eastern J1 branches than other European J1 clusters. No J1 was never found in any European Neolithic site and even in the Mediterranean areas possibly associated to Late Neolithic movements like the Sardinian J1 is always a local or regional cluster not found spreaded in other distant European regions because no Western European J1 has a deep chronology in Europe demonstrating an ancient presence there like the Karelian Mesolithic or the Caucasian CHG and the living Finn J1 individual as revealed in the last articles files only because the authors couldn't assume or could write about the major breakthrough of the ancient J1 remains and sequences in the texts for incompetence or other hidden interests. The Near Eastern differences between Northern Near Eastern basal types of J1 of Caucasian, Iranian, Anatolian, Armenian and Byzantine origins also can offer a big contrast with downstream derived P58 and subsequent downstream SNPs with origins associated to Southern Near Eastern, Levantine and Semitic origins in Europe like Phoenicians, Jews or Arabs depending on the phylogenetic positions in the J1 tree already found and occupied by J1 in Western Asia.

victar
11-28-2015, 05:16 PM
I fail to see how the complete absence of J1 in all Neolithic remains to date as well as its presence in EHG and CHG samples is consistent with this narrative, if anything it does a big disfavour to this theory.

You're welcome to your own theories, but I recommend you read the paper I cited.

Padre Organtino
11-28-2015, 05:29 PM
You're welcome to your own theories, but I recommend you read the paper I cited.

Anyone who has read the paper will understand that he has very little to do with European Neolithic.

kingjohn
11-28-2015, 05:42 PM
the karelia j1 show that some j1 members cross the caucasus mountains deep into
the north and less to the west like there j2 cousins.
just some thoughts thats why it wasn't discover yet in neolithic farmers remain
but maybe in the futuer it will.
adam

Agamemnon
11-28-2015, 06:10 PM
You're welcome to your own theories, but I recommend you read the paper I cited.

I did read the paper, as soon as it came out in fact... Which means I know that you know that Statsurblia is a ~13,700 year old Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer and that he was J1-F4306 (though the latter part isn't in the paper). In the same way the Karelian sample from Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov is an Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, so unless you're suggesting that the CHGs and EHGs were farmers who switched to foraging, I don't see how one could possibly interpret these results as somehow corroborating theories which ascribed J1's spread to the Neolithic "revolution". Granted, we don't have any ancient Near Eastern data from the Levant and Mesopotamia yet, but J1's association with a CHG-like population seems pretty convincing for the time being.

lgmayka
11-28-2015, 08:08 PM
I think most of the European J1 is historical and related to historical migrations and wars in Europe arriving after the Iron Age or even after the Roman Empire.
Isn't J-Z1828 almost entirely European? J-Z1828 diverged from its sibling J-L620 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2217/) over 18,000 years ago.

Viktor Reznov
11-28-2015, 08:28 PM
I did read the paper, as soon as it came out in fact... Which means I know that you know that Statsurblia is a ~13,700 year old Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer and that he was J1-F4306 (though the latter part isn't in the paper). In the same way the Karelian sample from Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov is an Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, so unless you're suggesting that the CHGs and EHGs were farmers who switched to foraging, I don't see how one could possibly interpret these results as somehow corroborating theories which ascribed J1's spread to the Neolithic "revolution". Granted, we don't have any ancient Near Eastern data from the Levant and Mesopotamia yet, but J1's association with a CHG-like population seems pretty convincing for the time being.
We probably should'nt even be arguing about it as long as we don't have Neolithic Y-DNA from the fertile crescent as opposed to just MtDNA(as far as knowing that most of the late Neolithic was "k" helps, and it does as far as telling certain people with certain agendas that we don't know enough yet about the maternal lines of certain people(;))), but it's not the "real thing".

Agamemnon
11-28-2015, 08:42 PM
Isn't J-Z1828 almost entirely European? J-Z1828 diverged from its sibling J-L620 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2217/) over 18,000 years ago.

Z1828 (especially its subclade Z1842) is the main J1 branch in the North Caucasus.


We probably should'nt even be arguing about it as long as we don't have Neolithic Y-DNA from the fertile crescent as opposed to just MtDNA(as far as knowing that most of the late Neolithic was "k" helps, and it does as far as telling certain people with certain agendas that we don't know enough yet about the maternal lines of certain people(;))), but it's not the "real thing".

Sure, but let's say that I'm rather skeptical right now because the CHGs formed their own cluster, so unless we get proof of the contrary (anything is possible right now, the Near East's genetic past is bound to be more complicated than Europe's) we're just arguing against the data. IMO we really need the J equivalent of Mal'ta boy to say anything useful about J's origins and how they relate to J1's dispersal.

RCO
11-28-2015, 08:59 PM
Isn't J-Z1828 almost entirely European? J-Z1828 diverged from its sibling J-L620 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2217/) over 18,000 years ago.

The most ancient and basal types of J1 can be found concentrated in the "Ancient J1 Belt" around the Northern Near Eastern (Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, Caspian Sea, Northern Iran) where the biggest diversity of J1 still can be found nowadays. J1 in Eastern Europe is only a projection of the expansion from that original J1 cradle areas.

You can find more crowded maps here:
J1*
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1_asterisk_Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=ymap
J1--CTS1267 (Z1828 or equivalent SNP)
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k_oKfltPsiqI&hl=en_US
J1-Z1842
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=47.517201%2C24.960938&spn=33.820262%2C71.806641&msa=0&mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k5GuTJB3-GxM
J1-L1189
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.kQRaWcsg-lmU&hl=en_US
J1-M365
http://tinyurl.com/5owkuh

victar
11-28-2015, 11:55 PM
Isn't J-Z1828 almost entirely European? J-Z1828 diverged from its sibling J-L620 over 18,000 years ago.
No, J-Z1828 is primarily Armenian and Anatolian. The European branches are later expansions.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Inigo Montoya
11-29-2015, 10:11 AM
lol wtf is this shit?

Dem furinners are stealing our haplogroups! :D

Inigo Montoya
11-29-2015, 10:20 AM
Z1828 (especially its subclade Z1842) is the main J1 branch in the North Caucasus.



Sure, but let's say that I'm rather skeptical right now because the CHGs formed their own cluster, so unless we get proof of the contrary (anything is possible right now, the Near East's genetic past is bound to be more complicated than Europe's) we're just arguing against the data. IMO we really need the J equivalent of Mal'ta boy to say anything useful about J's origins and how they relate to J1's dispersal.
Even with NGS, a genome the age of Mal'ta found in that region is bound to be heavily degraded. I fear it will not answer as much as we would like...

Gravetto-Danubian
11-29-2015, 10:33 AM
Vague and almost pointless question given the dearth of aDNA outside Europe and Russia, but what do people envisage as the territorial range of J haplogroups ~ before the Neolithic ?
The highland belt of the South Caucasus to Central Asia ? Or was that just the northern edge, with occasional moves even much more north ?

lgmayka
11-29-2015, 12:31 PM
The most ancient and basal types of J1 can be found concentrated in the "Ancient J1 Belt" around the Northern Near Eastern (Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, Caspian Sea, Northern Iran) where the biggest diversity of J1 still can be found nowadays. J1 in Eastern Europe is only a projection of the expansion from that original J1 cradle areas.
But that "projection" (the divergence of J-Z18463 from J-Z1828 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/)) occurred almost 8000 years ago. The purpose of my post was to correct your earlier statement that "most of the European J1 is historical and related to historical migrations and wars in Europe arriving after the Iron Age or even after the Roman Empire."

In the J1 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults), those listed in J-Z18463 (as J-BY69, J-M8963, J-Z18471, J-L1189, J-ZS3178, J-Z31382, J-ZS3128, and J-ZS5318) come from:
United Arab Emirates
Hungary
Poland
Slovakia
Turkey
Germany
Qatar
France
Norway
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Albania
Italy
Britain
Bulgaria
Greece
Finland

Not the Caucasus. This list of countries correlates fairly well with R1a-Z283.

DMXX
11-29-2015, 12:54 PM
Vague and almost pointless question given the dearth of aDNA outside Europe and Russia, but what do people envisage as the territorial range of J haplogroups ~ before the Neolithic ?
The highland belt of the South Caucasus to Central Asia ? Or was that just the northern edge, with occasional moves even much more north ?

I'm going to guess something close to RCO's established assessment for J1 (S Caucasus, E Anatolia and N Iran).

J2 could have overlapped with that, albeit with a slightly more southern distribution (S Anatolia, W Iran).

South-Central Asia very well could have been the easternmost extent of pre-Neolithic J's distribution. We can be more confident that the western boundary had to have stopped around W Anatolia (as per the EEF carrying farmers).

Establishing the eastern and southern boundaries is impossible for now without aDNA... We'd have to rely on conjecture (which I don't think anyone's particularly fond of at this point after years of card house collapses :) ).

A mix of pure and educated guesswork on my part, once more.

RCO
11-29-2015, 02:13 PM
We can find and locate via STRs and SNPs all J1 (just like all other haplogroups) temporal thickness in a region. If we can establish a regular structured cluster we can try to calculate the TMRCA of that specific cluster in that specific region different from others. That's what I am trying to investigate in my own J1-M365 in Western Iberia with a recent historical star like expansion and a regular frequency in the Portuguese demographic stock. The problem with J1 in Eastern Europe has been the fluidity of ethnic or national frontiers where J1 ethnic and national clusters could be regularly found. J1 in Eastern Europe can be very fragmented and isolated just like the Finnish basal YF02055, http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/ a very ancient basal type in the J1 haplogroup, a real living fossil in the J1 phylogenetic dimension, but we can't find an organized structure of matches or a regular frequency, even a small one, in any ethnic or national space in Eastern Europe and that condition would apply for almost all interesting basal J1 cases in Eastern Europe.

DMXX has a very important question.
We can observe here:

6746
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVE1yZWIzdDdNM2s/view

Of course we need to investigate the ancient genomes from Northern Iran and Central Asia but we have the ancient and modern genomes atDNA from the Caucasus. Just compare ancient Kotias and Satsurblia samples with modern J1 Land in Dagestan or Lezgin, Azeri, Iran, Tajiks and ancient Scythians, some Sarmatians were also identified as J1 some weeks ago and then move to ancient admixed Yamnaya and we can also detect the ancient basal J and J1 belt more or less associated with the newly discovered CHG with different languages but stretching in a continuum from the Caucasian Black Sea, the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran and going to Iranian Sogdiana and Bactria close to modern Central Asian Tadjikistan samples still in line even after thousands of years of admixtures, but the basal J continuum can still be recognized there.

Agamemnon
11-29-2015, 04:24 PM
If CHG is a mixture of Basal Eurasian with something else, that leaves open the question of J's potential association with Basal Eurasian, in which case an expansion of J1 with Neolithic farmers would still be a viable scenario. Needless to say, Levantine and Mesopotamian data (especially from the Gulf, as the "Gulf Oasis" hypothesis is a serious contender for J's cradle) is sorely needed to answer these questions, let alone provide educated guesses.

kinman
12-02-2015, 11:12 PM
I've just started looking into this, but to me it looks like the cradle of Haplogroup J (as well as Haplogroup I) is Kurdistan. So if I were looking for basal parahaplogroup individuals for either I or J, Kurdistan is where I would start. Too bad it is in such a troubled part of the world.
------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If CHG is a mixture of Basal Eurasian with something else, that leaves open the question of J's potential association with Basal Eurasian, in which case an expansion of J1 with Neolithic farmers would still be a viable scenario. Needless to say, Levantine and Mesopotamian data (especially from the Gulf, as the "Gulf Oasis" hypothesis is a serious contender for J's cradle) is sorely needed to answer these questions, let alone provide educated guesses.

Agamemnon
12-03-2015, 01:42 AM
I've just started looking into this, but to me it looks like the cradle of Haplogroup J (as well as Haplogroup I) is Kurdistan. So if I were looking for basal parahaplogroup individuals for either I or J, Kurdistan is where I would start. Too bad it is in such a troubled part of the world.
------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possible, but until we get our hands on ancient data from the region, this is just an educated guess.

Moe12
10-03-2018, 06:48 PM
Three such hunter-gathering individuals of the male sex have had their DNA results published. Each was found to belong to a different Y-DNA haplogroup: R1a, R1b, and J.

Jones et al. (2015) analyzed genomes from males from western Georgia, in the Caucasus, from the Late Upper Palaeolithic (13,300 years old) and the Mesolithic (9,700 years old). These two males carried Y-DNA haplogroup: J* and J2a. The researchers found that these Caucasus hunters were probably the source of the farmer-like DNA in the Yamnaya, as the Caucasians were distantly related to the Middle Eastern people who introduced farming in Europe.[web 1] Their genomes showed that a continued mixture of the Caucasians with Middle Eastern took place up to 25,000 years ago, when the coldest period in the last Ice Age started.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture#Near_East_population

Also J1 was found among Sarmatians or Scythians if I recall correctly.

Although are the Pontic-Caspian steppes a real contender for the homeland of J or was your opening statement more of a "sarcastic" one? I find it interesting if it is really.

Arch Hades
10-10-2018, 06:18 PM
I think J probably arose or at least became dominant somwhere in the Iran Neolithic-CHG hotzone.

IMO a more interesting question is where do IJ come from? That may have been a northern forager related haplogroup.

J Man
10-13-2018, 03:46 AM
Interestingly enough J1 has been found twice now in Mesolithic Russia. Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov and Popovo.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1lIgW0PYocrT-vEkg2RKodHEPTZ0&ll=56.024960053984266%2C49.70607069273183&z=4