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E_M81_I3A
10-11-2015, 06:56 PM
"Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe", Mathieson et al. 2015

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract?%3Fcollection=

From the study:

"Middle Bronze Age Poltavka culture, Samara, Russia (n=5) : Five Middle Bronze Age (MBA) individuals described here were excavated by Samara archaeologists at five different MBA kurgan cemeteries of the Poltavka culture, all located in the Samara oblast. The Poltavka culture evolved from the Yamnaya culture beginning about 2900-2800 BCE and lasted until about 2200-2100 BCE. Four of the five individuals are directly dated with 14C dates that fall between 2925-2484 BCE. Poltavka graves exhibited new types of pottery vessels and some small innovations in grave shape and construction compared with the earlier Yamnaya, but the Poltavka economy was a continuation of the mobile pastoral economy introduced during the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya period beginning about 3300 BCE. MBA Poltavka settlements excavated during the Samara Valley Project were ephemeral seasonal camps that yielded <1 artifact per 2m2, a signal of high mobility"

"Lopatino II, grave kurgan 1, grave 1 - 10440 / SVP53. Lopatino II is a cemetery of kurgans dated to both the EBA and MBA located on the Sok River in Samara oblast, within a regional cluster of Bronze Age kurgan cemeteries. Kurgan 1, grave 1 contained a male (confirmed genetically) age 25-35 with red ochre staining on his distal tibia. Y-chromosome haplotype R1b1a2a2, MtDNA type I3a." (2885-2665 BCE)

"The Yamnaya from Samara and Kalmykia, the Afanasievo people from the Altai (3300-82 3000 BCE), and the Poltavka Middle Bronze Age (2900-2200 BCE) population that followed the Yamnaya in Samara, are all genetically homogeneous, forming a tight “Bronze Age steppe” cluster in PCA (Fig. 1b), sharing predominantly R1b Y-chromosomes"

E_M81_I3A
10-14-2015, 06:22 AM
I3a, a very rare haplogorup (<0,1%), is nowadays found mostly in countries with high percentages of R1b in northwestern Europe. Haplogroup I3a has not been found in Neolithic remains from Europe to date. Its presence in the Unetice culture (Haak, Lazaridis et al. 2015), among ancient Scythians (Der Sarkissian et al. 2011) and now in the Poltavka culture (Mathieson et al. 2015) confirm an Indo-European origin.

zamyatin13
10-14-2015, 01:21 PM
I noticed the I3a with some interest, as it had previously turned up in a Unetice context alongside my own haplogroup I1a1.

I1a1 turns up in the Mathieson study too, but in Srubnaya, in a similar timeframe to the Unetice samples. I'm assuming, like you said, that both these haplogroups are spread by Indo-European peoples.

The earlier origins of I in the Caucasus/Northern Iran does kind of hint at a mixing of these groups with Steppe cultures as the Mathieson report suggests, i.e. the mixing of 'Armenian' and Ancient North-Eurasian elements in Yamnaya.

Krefter
10-14-2015, 02:02 PM
I agree. hg I is absent from Neolithic farmers. It first appears with Corded Ware, as I3a. I looks like a "Teal" lineage.

FredH
04-07-2016, 04:23 PM
"Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe", Mathieson et al. 2015

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract?%3Fcollection=

From the study:

"Middle Bronze Age Poltavka culture, Samara, Russia (n=5) : Five Middle Bronze Age (MBA) individuals described here were excavated by Samara archaeologists at five different MBA kurgan cemeteries of the Poltavka culture, all located in the Samara oblast. The Poltavka culture evolved from the Yamnaya culture beginning about 2900-2800 BCE and lasted until about 2200-2100 BCE. Four of the five individuals are directly dated with 14C dates that fall between 2925-2484 BCE. Poltavka graves exhibited new types of pottery vessels and some small innovations in grave shape and construction compared with the earlier Yamnaya, but the Poltavka economy was a continuation of the mobile pastoral economy introduced during the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya period beginning about 3300 BCE. MBA Poltavka settlements excavated during the Samara Valley Project were ephemeral seasonal camps that yielded <1 artifact per 2m2, a signal of high mobility"

"Lopatino II, grave kurgan 1, grave 1 - 10440 / SVP53. Lopatino II is a cemetery of kurgans dated to both the EBA and MBA located on the Sok River in Samara oblast, within a regional cluster of Bronze Age kurgan cemeteries. Kurgan 1, grave 1 contained a male (confirmed genetically) age 25-35 with red ochre staining on his distal tibia. Y-chromosome haplotype R1b1a2a2, MtDNA type I3a." (2885-2665 BCE)

"The Yamnaya from Samara and Kalmykia, the Afanasievo people from the Altai (3300-82 3000 BCE), and the Poltavka Middle Bronze Age (2900-2200 BCE) population that followed the Yamnaya in Samara, are all genetically homogeneous, forming a tight “Bronze Age steppe” cluster in PCA (Fig. 1b), sharing predominantly R1b Y-chromosomes"
The Y-DNA Haplogroup of this person is R1bM269 but L51- then P312- & U106 - he is in fact Z2103+ clearly from Eastern Europe like the others buried people in Samara. We have others I3a persons found in Germany but it seems that these people found in Germany have western Y-Haplogroup L51. Also I3a seemed to be found more in North Western Europe. So how comes this Mt-Haplogroup were found mixed with Eastern Y-DNA?

faulconer
05-30-2016, 08:48 PM
The Y-DNA Haplogroup of this person is R1bM269 but L51- then P312- & U106 - he is in fact Z2103+ clearly from Eastern Europe like the others buried people in Samara. We have others I3a persons found in Germany but it seems that these people found in Germany have western Y-Haplogroup L51. Also I3a seemed to be found more in North Western Europe. So how comes this Mt-Haplogroup were found mixed with Eastern Y-DNA?

My guess is that I3a came from the East(Caucasus) and spread into Europe with IE and western Yamnaya descendants carrying L51. If I3a is indeed a Teal lineage it makes sense that it would be living with L23 on the steppe before L51 and Z2103 appeared (one seeming to go East and the other West).

There are certainly a lot of other possibilities (which I have enjoyed reading about on this forum), but to me, this seems like the most simple explanation.

FredH
05-31-2016, 01:11 PM
My guess is that I3a came from the East(Caucasus) and spread into Europe with IE and western Yamnaya descendants carrying L51. If I3a is indeed a Teal lineage it makes sense that it would be living with L23 on the steppe before L51 and Z2103 appeared (one seeming to go East and the other West).

There are certainly a lot of other possibilities (which I have enjoyed reading about on this forum), but to me, this seems like the most simple explanation.

Except that L51 mutation is 6200 years old according to Yfull estimates. At that time L51 was an Early Farmer of Neolithic age , then L51 mutation must have been already there when the I3a came along with L51 4500 years ago, during early Bronze age, according to the Pontic Steppe scenario, but then why do we have absolutly no L51+ in Yamnaya ancient DNA but only in Western Europe and no Z2103 samples in Europe but only in the Pontic Steppe?
Something doesn't work in the Steppe Scenario.
Let ' say that L51 mutation appeared in Europe 6200 years ago, then the Steppe migration must have occured before L51 mutation during Neolithic age , 6200 years ago, and not at early bronze age,4500 years ago, as predicted by Steppe scenario.
All in all, the age of L51 and the data don't fit the 4500 years old Pontic Steppe Migrations scenario. When the Indo Europeans L23 became L51 in Europe along with I3a , 6200 years ago, they were just Early Farmers mixed with Western Hunter-Gatherers. They had nothing to do with Bronze age technlogy and they were probably from Near East where Early farmers came from. This idea support the IE language expansion along with Early Farmers of Neolithic from Near Esat through Anatolia, the Anatolian Hypothesis defended by Colin Renfrew.

faulconer
05-31-2016, 04:35 PM
Except that L51 mutation is 6200 years old according to Yfull estimates. At that time L51 was an Early Farmer of Neolithic age , then L51 mutation must have been already there when the I3a came along with L51 4500 years ago, during early Bronze age, according to the Pontic Steppe scenario, but then why do we have absolutly no L51+ in Yamnaya ancient DNA but only in Western Europe and no Z2103 samples in Europe but only in the Pontic Steppe?
Something doesn't work in the Steppe Scenario.
Let ' say that L51 mutation appeared in Europe 6200 years ago, then the Steppe migration must have occured before L51 mutation during Neolithic age , 6200 years ago, and not at early bronze age,4500 years ago, as predicted by Steppe scenario.
All in all, the age of L51 and the data don't fit the 4500 years old Pontic Steppe Migrations scenario. When the Indo Europeans L23 became L51 in Europe along with I3a , 6200 years ago, they were just Early Farmers mixed with Western Hunter-Gatherers. They had nothing to do with Bronze age technlogy and they were probably from Near East where Early farmers came from. This idea support the IE language expansion along with Early Farmers of Neolithic from Near Esat through Anatolia, the Anatolian Hypothesis defended by Colin Renfrew.

Would you say that the I3a found with Z2103(Samara) and the I3a found with L51(Unetice) came from a common source found in an L23(xL51,xZ2103) population in Europe and then Z2103 moved East (along with I3a) to become the Yamnaya culture (already carrying the IE language from an Anatolian source)?

FredH
05-31-2016, 05:36 PM
Would you say that the I3a found with Z2103(Samara) and the I3a found with L51(Unetice) came from a common source found in an L23(xL51,xZ2103) population in Europe and then Z2103 moved East (along with I3a) to become the Yamnaya culture (already carrying the IE language from an Anatolian source)?

Yes I would say that the early Farmer IE from Near East or Western Asia L23(x51,xZ2103) split into 2 lines @ 6500bp (4500 bc):
- one line went to the Pontic Steppes giving Z2103 branch
- the other line to Central & Western Europe giving L51 branch
This scenario fits quite well the bill in 2 points:
1 L51 & Z2103 are 6000 years old mutation corresponding to the Neolithic Expansion from Near East to Europe.
2 no L51 in Pontic Steppe aDNA , no Z2103 in Western Europe aDNA

I3a met some Europeans L51 somewhere in Europe some time between 4500BC and 2000 BC giving the Unetice Samples in Germany.
Another I3a met some Yamnayas Z2103 somewhere some time between 4500BC and 2500 BC giving the Yamnaya sample in Lopatino (Pontic Steppe).
I don't do any hypothese so far on I3a origin. But in any case it seems inconsistent that L51 & I3a came along together from Pontic Steppe at early Bronze Age (2500BC or 4500 bp).
I3a met L51 in Europe or L23 before in Western Asia but before 6500bp in this case?
We can say that I3a found in Pontic Steppe came from Europe following a contact , a trade between European L51 and Yamnaya Z2103 peoples or the other way around but so far there is much more I3a samples in Western Europe and I3a is actualy most found in Western Europe.

faulconer
05-31-2016, 06:12 PM
Yes I would say that the early Farmer IE from Near East or Western Asia L23(x51,xZ2103) split into 2 lines @ 6500bp (4500 bc):
- one line went to the Pontic Steppes giving Z2103 branch
- the other line to Central & Western Europe giving L51 branch
This scenario fits quite well the bill: L51 & Z2103 are 6000 years old mutation corresponding to the Neolithic Expansion from Near East to Europe along with the IE language and not to the Early Bronze age Yamnaya migrations.
I3a met some Europeans L51 somewhere in Europe some time between 4500BC and 2000 BC giving the Unetice Samples in Germany.
Another I3a met some Yamnayas Z2103 somewhere some time between 4500BC and 2500 BC giving the Yamnaya sample in Lopatino (Pontic Steppe).
I don't do any hypothese so far on I3a origin. But in any case it seems inconsistent that L51 & I3a came along together from Pontic Steppe at early Bronze Age (2500BC or 4500 bp).
I3a met L51 in Europe or L23 before in Western Asia but before 6500bp in this case?
We can say that I3a found in Pontic Steppe came from Europe folowing a contact , a trade between European L51 and Yamnaya Z2103 peoples or the other way around.

I think this is a very interesting idea. Can't wait for more ancient DNA results! I like the idea of L23 and I3a coming together before L51 and Z2103 as it seems to be a simple explanation for why they would be found together later but I certainly don't think we have enough evidence yet. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. It's certainly fun to think about (especially as we are both L23 and I3a!)

FredH
06-01-2016, 05:41 AM
I agree. hg I is absent from Neolithic farmers. It first appears with Corded Ware, as I3a. I looks like a "Teal" lineage.

a tour on Wikipedia Haplogroup I (mtDNA) tells another story with ref.:

Haplogroup I is a descendant (subclade) of haplogroup N1e'I (Behar 2012b) and sibling of haplogroup N1e (Behar 2012b). It is believed to have arisen somewhere in West Asia between 17,263 and 24,451 years before present (Behar 2012b). It has been suggested that its origin may be in Iran or more generally the Near East (Terreros 2011).
mt-hg I probably came to Europe in the Neolithic Early Farmers train with R1b. I3a is only found in Unetice Culture samples 2000 BC. I see no I3a Corded Ware sample in this list: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml
Let 's Note that Unetice samples have much more Early Farmers admixture than Corded Ware peoples.