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George
10-12-2015, 01:57 PM
This looks extremely interesting.

Here's the abstract:

In search for initial Indo-European gene pool from genome-wide data on IE populations as compared with their non-IE neighbors

Oleg Balanovsky, Vavilow Institue of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow


Most researchers agree that there was a proto-Indo-European population which descendants spread the derived languages over half of Eurasia. During this migration, the IE-carriers have had to assimilate the local substratum populations which might predominate in numbers, and therefore “dissolve” the initial gene pool of the protoIE population. Then, most of present day IE populations should carry a genetic legacy of proto-IE population though it might form a small fraction of their gene pools. We tried to identify this proto-IE genetic component by genome-wide genotyping in 9 population pairs. Each pair consisted of IE population and its non-IE neighbor, for example IE French and Spanish vs non-IE Basque, IE Tajiks vs non-IE Uzbeks, and 7 other pairs. We searched for genetic markers which are shared by IE populations in contrast with their “paired” non-IE populations. We expected this proto-IE genetic component to be small, but found it is nearby zero. For example, if one looks for a markers present in all IE but absent in all paired populations (or for markers two times more frequent in the IE population than in the corresponding non-IE paired population), no one out of 128,000 studied markers fit these criteria. When criteria are released, the common IE genetic component could be formally identified but number of markers does not exceed the one expected from random distribution. The data mining is still in progress but it is already clear that most (if not all) presentday IE populations does not carry genetic legacy of proto-IE population. Hence, this proto-IE gene pool has been completely replaced by gene pools of assimilated populations. To explain this finding, the simple predominance of assimilated substratum is not enough. Indeed, even in case of language change through elite dominance, the dominated group is expected to make some genetic contribution, which is detectable by genome-wide scans (as was recently shown for Turkic speakers). Thus, we should conclude that IE languages spread by chain of elite dominance events: the population acquired IE language with small portion of proto-IE gene pool then in turn transmitted the language to the next population but made only minor genetic contribution in it. After some such chain links the proto-IE gene pool is expected to be completely dissolved which we indeed see in our data. This conclusion of the repeated language change events as a primary model for IE spread is supported by the historically recent and well documented example of Slavic languages. We studied all extant Balto-Slavic speaking populations by both, genome-wide and haploid genetic systems. The signals of substratum populations assimilated by expanding Slavs were strong but there were virtually no signal of initial Slavic gene pool. Though pan-IE genetic markers do not exist, in the restricted geographic scale the markers associated with particular phases of the IE expansion could be identified. The best example is the branch L657 of the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a: the branch originated in Eurasian steppe but is frequent only in the Indian IE populations. Considering this branch is 3,5-5 ky old, one may believe it as a marker of IndoAryan migration into South Asia. Another example is Y-chromosomal haplogroup G1 which might mark the previous phase, namely migration of (proto-)IndoIranians from South-West Asia into steppe areas. Taken together, these results made me skeptical about reconstructing earlier events of IE expansion from genetic data on (present day) populations, when the later events sometimes could (Indo-Aryans) and sometimes could not (Slavs) be traced in the contemporary gene pools. Note that increasing the number of genetic markers often does not help much, while increasing their information value – like deep analysis of Y-chromosomal haplogroups or autosomal haplotypes – might be productive way for tracing ancient population events.

Agamemnon
10-12-2015, 02:56 PM
Seems to me Balanovsky decided to go full retard (pardon my french).... Kinda disappointing, really.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wVagQ_LVd4

Coldmountains
10-12-2015, 03:32 PM
The best example is the branch L657 of the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a: the branch originated in Eurasian steppe but is frequent only in the Indian IE populations. Considering this branch is 3,5-5 ky old, one may believe it as a marker of IndoAryan migration into South Asia. Another example is Y-chromosomal haplogroup G1 which might mark the previous phase, namely migration of (proto-)IndoIranians from South-West Asia into steppe areas

Lol :biggrin1: Did he live the last years on another planet?

George
10-12-2015, 03:55 PM
Lol :biggrin1: Did he live the last years on another planet?

I have no idea about this G1 claim. Perhaps it is indeed garbage. But since I don't belong to the politically correct genetic brigade, WHOLESALE dismissals leave me cold, particularly with supporting references to second rate films.:amen:

Coldmountains
10-12-2015, 05:06 PM
I have no idea about this G1 claim. Perhaps it is indeed garbage. But since I don't belong to the politically correct genetic brigade, WHOLESALE dismissals leave me cold, particularly with supporting references to second rate films.:amen:

At least he is right about my L657 ancestors (I am a carrier of it thanks to my pashtun line ). But I really want to see the evidences for his other statement. 90+% of steppe Indo-Iranians tested so far were R1a and the Alans are G2 if I am not wrong. Bit nevertheless earlier Indo-Iranians are basically almost all R1a-Z94 and seem to lack G. Ironically we have now a lot of evidences that Indo-Iranians originated not in the steppe originally but in the forest steppe north of it so me must be joking if he suggest they arrived from southwest Asia in the steppe

George
10-12-2015, 05:19 PM
At least he is right about my L657 ancestors (I am a carrier of it thanks to my pashtun line ). But I really want to see the evidences for his other statement. 90+% of steppe Indo-Iranians tested so far were R1a and the Alans are G2 if I am not wrong. Bit nevertheless earlier Indo-Iranians are basically almost all R1a-Z94 and seem to lack G. Ironically we have now a lot of evidences that Indo-Iranians originated not in the steppe originally but in the forest steppe north of it so me must be joking if he suggest they arrived from southwest Asia in the steppe

Yes, I think it would be better to see the whole paper before deciding what to dismiss or not. Perhaps the final sentence of his abstract should also have been emphasized: "Note that increasing the number of genetic markers often does not help much, while increasing their information value – like deep analysis of Y-chromosomal haplogroups or autosomal haplotypes – might be productive way for tracing ancient population events"

Generalissimo
10-12-2015, 05:27 PM
His bogus claim is based on this.

Deep Phylogenetic Analysis of Haplogroup G1 Provides Estimates of SNP and STR Mutation Rates on the Human Y-Chromosome and Reveals Migrations of Iranic Speakers (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122968)

So G1 looks more like a Neolithic marker that eventually got picked up by Turks.

RCO
10-12-2015, 08:55 PM
I think it is a good article but still incomplete because Balanovsky can investigate the other haplogroups as well. Just investigate matches between ancient core Iranians and follow the lines of expansion. Not only G1 but the "Deep Phylogenetic Analysis of Haplogroups" J1, J2 and others, for instance would be interesting to "Provides Estimates of SNP and STR Mutation Rates on the Human Y-Chromosome and Reveals Migrations of Iranic Speakers". Just investigate all SNPs and STRS around the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran and they would be important in terms of comparison of the Iranic expansions via Sarmatians, Alans, Scyths and others.

lgmayka
10-12-2015, 09:49 PM
With respect to Indo-European:

Balanovsky imagines that a language is so genetically linked that it is directly traceable in the DNA 5000 years later, by comparing an IE speaker to his next-door neighbor. This is not realistic. The comparison between Tajiks and Uzbeks is particularly problematic because Uzbeks may have previously spoken an Indo-European language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks#Ancient_history) and been later "converted" to Turkic. A more robust comparison would have been Europe vs. the Middle East, or Central Asia vs. China.

With respect to Slavs:

Heaven knows that I have argued strenuously against the Total Population Replacement hypothesis of Slavic expansion. But Balanovsky goes to the other, equally ridiculous extreme: How can he claim "virtually no signal of initial Slavic gene pool" when it's pretty obvious in the R1a and I2a haplotrees?

George
10-12-2015, 10:07 PM
With respect to Indo-European:

Balanovsky imagines that a language is so genetically linked that it is directly traceable in the DNA 5000 years later, by comparing an IE speaker to his next-door neighbor. This is not realistic. The comparison between Tajiks and Uzbeks is particularly problematic because Uzbeks may have previously spoken an Indo-European language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks#Ancient_history) and been later "converted" to Turkic

***** This is hardly a problematic comparison. A Turkic-speaking elite conquered an Iranic-speaking population and caused a language shift while leaving no genetic trace. Which is his main point.*****


. A more robust comparison would have been Europe vs. the Middle East, or Central Asia vs. China.

With respect to Slavs:

Heaven knows that I have argued strenuously against the Total Population Replacement hypothesis of Slavic expansion.

*****The TRH is one thing, and the Partial Replacement hypothesis quite another. You have never offered any convincing arguments against the latter as far as I know.*****

But Balanovsky goes to the other, equally ridiculous extreme: How can he claim "virtually no signal of initial Slavic gene pool" when it's pretty obvious in the R1a and I2a projects?

*****I'll wait until I can read his paper and maybe I'll agree with you. His claims do sound strange but the abstract may have been miscomposed.*****




I'll wait for the whole paper before totally dismissing him.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-13-2015, 12:04 AM
I'm not sure I agree with all his conclusions, but I do like one aspect- the IE might have been a punctuated, syncopated affair and not "waves" flowing from a magical epicentre, as Gimbutas and her modern followers described.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-13-2015, 12:06 AM
With respect to Indo-European:

Balanovsky imagines that a language is so genetically linked that it is directly traceable in the DNA 5000 years later, by comparing an IE speaker to his next-door neighbor. This is not realistic. The comparison between Tajiks and Uzbeks is particularly problematic because Uzbeks may have previously spoken an Indo-European language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks#Ancient_history) and been later "converted" to Turkic. A more robust comparison would have been Europe vs. the Middle East, or Central Asia vs. China.

With respect to Slavs:

Heaven knows that I have argued strenuously against the Total Population Replacement hypothesis of Slavic expansion. But Balanovsky goes to the other, equally ridiculous extreme: How can he claim "virtually no signal of initial Slavic gene pool" when it's pretty obvious in the R1a and I2a haplotrees?

Larry I've not heard of the "total replacement Slavic theory". Afaik admixture has long been recognised. What hasn't been clealry established is where admixture did take place, when, the proportions etc

lgmayka
10-13-2015, 02:05 AM
Larry I've not heard of the "total replacement Slavic theory".
Until rather recently, one very prominent and highly respected poster in this forum not only espoused the Total Population Replacement hypothesis, but claimed that it was the archaeological consensus. She specifically used the phrases "virtually empty (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=7918#p7918)" and "almost deserted (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=7932&sid=bf6ca7e2a4381f146995da742c11d583#p7932)" to describe the lands into which the Slavs expanded.

To her credit, she no longer publicly defends TPRH as far as I know. I brought up the matter in this thread only as the opposite extreme from Balanovsky's bizarre assertion.

In his book The Early Slavs, P. M. Barford seems to stake out a middle ground (p. 46), perhaps implying that a new elite replaced the old.
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It is equally possible that a Germanic elite left the area, and that, for one reason or another, the population left behind preferred not to use cultural markers of Germanic type. Perhaps we are seeing an expression of a changed world outlook on the collapse of the old social order, in which the Germanic-style zone with its extensive use of prestige goods and competitiveness was replaced by a styleless and more egalitarian material culture.
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Gravetto-Danubian
10-13-2015, 02:27 AM
Until rather recently, one very prominent and highly respected poster in this forum not only espoused the Total Population Replacement hypothesis, but claimed that it was the archaeological consensus. She specifically used the phrases "virtually empty (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=7918#p7918)" and "almost deserted (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=7932&sid=bf6ca7e2a4381f146995da742c11d583#p7932)" to describe the lands into which the Slavs expanded.

To her credit, she no longer publicly defends TPRH as far as I know. I brought up the matter in this thread only as the opposite extreme from Balanovsky's bizarre assertion.

In his book The Early Slavs, P. M. Barford seems to stake out a middle ground (p. 46), perhaps implying that a new elite replaced the old.
---
It is equally possible that a Germanic elite left the area, and that, for one reason or another, the population left behind preferred not to use cultural markers of Germanic type. Perhaps we are seeing an expression of a changed world outlook on the collapse of the old social order, in which the Germanic-style zone with its extensive use of prestige goods and competitiveness was replaced by a styleless and more egalitarian material culture.
---

Oh I see thanks for clarifying.