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One-Eyed King
10-14-2015, 02:42 PM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html Where would the Oceanin ancestry come from?

parasar
10-14-2015, 03:06 PM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html Where would the Oceanin ancestry come from?

It is impossible that modern Oceanian can have anything to do ancestrally with a 24kybp sample.
So it is common ancestry.
Ust-Ishim who can be thought of as an ancestor to MA1 is statistically equally close to Oceanians and MA1.

One-Eyed King
10-14-2015, 04:23 PM
Would Mal'ta boy have had any Australoid ancestry? because Oceanians are Australoid.

xKeleix
10-14-2015, 08:08 PM
Would Mal'ta boy have had any Australoid ancestry? because Oceanians are Australoid.

Did you read the previous comment?
I suggest you take off your modern racialist goggles when looking at ancient diversity. There's always a good chance that ancients have common ancestry with moderns, and likely the cause is the reverse, ie "Australoids" have some possible Malta-like ancestry, or that they share common ancestors. When looking at ADMIXTURE and like programs, direction of geneflow is not always certain.

epoch
10-23-2015, 12:18 PM
It is impossible that modern Oceanian can have anything to do ancestrally with a 24kybp sample.
So it is common ancestry.
Ust-Ishim who can be thought of as an ancestor to MA1 is statistically equally close to Oceanians and MA1.

I thought John Hawks commented on the Ust'-Ishim genome that it looked like a dead end. On what grounds would you call Ust'Ishim an ancestor to MA1? Or is it just that he looks like what is called basal Crown Eurasian, i.e related to the ancestral population of both east and west Eurasians?

epoch
10-23-2015, 02:40 PM
It is impossible that modern Oceanian can have anything to do ancestrally with a 24kybp sample.
So it is common ancestry.
Ust-Ishim who can be thought of as an ancestor to MA1 is statistically equally close to Oceanians and MA1.

You are probably right.

However, let us entertain ourselves with the thought. Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/24/analyses-of-the-oase-1-genome/) did an analysis which showed that Oase 1 had roughly 10% Austranesian or how he would call it. That is about what Ust'-Ishim, who was older, had. Furthermore, a mystery population appeared to have contributed Austranesian and Onge admixture to some, not all, South-American Indians. Karitiana has it, Mixe not.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/nature14895_Skoglund_2015.pdf

Also, recently 80.000 year old teeth have been found in Hunan, China. We also have seen a paper that claims that they find a signal of a very earlier migration out of Africa reached Australia, based on cranial data.

http://www.livescience.com/44988-humans-dispersed-earlier-than-thought.html

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, all the admixture pointing to Australian and/or Onge are leftovers from this earliest migration, which extended to at least to Hunan and possibly further. Could we find that with D-Stats? For instance, would Mixe,Karitiana (so the component is in there) - Ust'Ishim,Oase 1 or anything as is done in the Skoglund paper weasel out such an admixture?

PS: Let's boldly lump in the strange Mungo Man mtDNA.

EDIT: Not seen in Davidski of Eurogenes K15 of Oase 1 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/oase-1-early-modern-human-from-romania.html)

epoch
10-25-2015, 09:46 PM
EDIT: Not seen in Davidski of Eurogenes K15 of Oase 1 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/oase-1-early-modern-human-from-romania.html)

Actually it is:



Oceanian 9.36

Erik
10-26-2015, 12:12 AM
Would Mal'ta boy have had any Australoid ancestry? because Oceanians are Australoid.

So? What do -oid groupings have to do with anything?

I might as well be wondering about "Orientalid" ancestry in Europeans due to the neolithic revolution.

tamilgangster
10-26-2015, 02:20 AM
The Ma'lta boy is a distinct, population with no modern descendents in pure form. The oceanian is probably noise which shows up because its a distinct branch of crown eurasian which makes it show up as a mix of various OOA populaions. Other possibilities is that since Ocenians were descended from an earlier OOA branch they absorbed mixture from a population from the Ocenians lineage. ANother theory is that since the denisova cave in located in siberia, the Malta people probably have denisovan admixture which shows up as Ocenian.

Inigo Montoya
10-26-2015, 02:05 PM
ANother theory is that since the denisova cave in located in siberia, the Malta people probably have denisovan admixture which shows up as Ocenian.
Didn't any researcher think to test that? It seems so obvious.

Kale
10-26-2015, 02:42 PM
Didn't any researcher think to test that? It seems so obvious.

Maybe a tiny tiny bit, but nothing significant.
Orang Ancient_Denisova Dai Papuan 0.0341 6.651
Orang Ancient_Denisova English Papuan 0.0362 6.949
Orang Ancient_Denisova Karitiana Papuan 0.0349 5.722
Orang Ancient_Denisova MA1 Papuan 0.0325 3.740

tamilgangster
10-26-2015, 02:51 PM
Didn't any researcher think to test that? It seems so obvious.

Bth denisovan genome and Malta genome are fairly newly discovered. There hasn't been any test for denisovan admixture among them yet afaik

Megalophias
10-26-2015, 03:08 PM
Bth denisovan genome and Malta genome are fairly newly discovered. There hasn't been any test for denisovan admixture among them yet afaik

The Denisivan genome was included in the MA-1 paper. There was a migration edge to Papuans but not to MA-1.

Inigo Montoya
10-26-2015, 03:40 PM
The Denisivan genome was included in the MA-1 paper. There was a migration edge to Papuans but not to MA-1.
Okay, so I just re-read the SI of Raghavan et al.'s paper. No edge between Denisovans and MA1 anywhere in there. But we are only shown results with 0-4 migration edges, although the text mentions that tests were run with 0-10 edges, which is the range for Treemix, and figure SI.11a shows that likelihood reaches a maximum at 9 edges.
I have neither the data nor the knowledge to do the Treemix test myself, but hopefully I piqued someone's curiosity hint hint :)

epoch
10-26-2015, 05:21 PM
Maybe a tiny tiny bit, but nothing significant.
Orang Ancient_Denisova Dai Papuan 0.0341 6.651
Orang Ancient_Denisova English Papuan 0.0362 6.949
Orang Ancient_Denisova Karitiana Papuan 0.0349 5.722
Orang Ancient_Denisova MA1 Papuan 0.0325 3.740


How does the following do?

Mixe Karitiana Ust'-Ishim Oase-1
Mixe Karitiana Kostenki 14 Oase-1
Mixe Karitiana Kostenki 14 MA1

EDIT: Or Mixe Surui rather than Mixe Karitiana. The former has more of the mystery population adding Oceanian and Onge to Indians.
You could add "Oase1 MA1" as well..

epoch
10-26-2015, 05:28 PM
The Denisivan genome was included in the MA-1 paper. There was a migration edge to Papuans but not to MA-1.

Ust'-Ishim does have a rather large Oceanian and Onge part and the research paper explicitly stated they found no Denisovan admixture.


In contrast, we fail to detect any contribution from Denisovans, although such a contribution exists inpresent-day people not only in Oceania, but to a lesser extent also in mainland east Asia

Megalophias
10-26-2015, 05:48 PM
Ust'-Ishim does have a rather large Oceanian and Onge part and the research paper explicitly stated they found no Denisovan admixture.
The Reich 2011 paper about Denisovan admixture modelled Sahullanders (is that a word?) as about half Onge-like and half something older with high Denisovan admixture. So there are a lot of possibilities for Oceanian affinity. There was also the recent paper arguing for a very early first wave out of Africa that contributed significantly to Sahullanders (maybe the ones who interbred with Denisovans?) - those first wavers could have contributed independently to different populations, and they weren't necessarily all Denisovan-admixed either.

Kale
10-26-2015, 06:25 PM
How does the following do?

Mixe Karitiana Ust'-Ishim Oase-1
Mixe Karitiana Kostenki 14 Oase-1
Mixe Karitiana Kostenki 14 MA1

EDIT: Or Mixe Surui rather than Mixe Karitiana. The former has more of the mystery population adding Oceanian and Onge to Indians.
You could add "Oase1 MA1" as well..

Sorry I can't run any stats. I've asked numerous times for people to tell me how, but have been ignored.

epoch
10-26-2015, 06:41 PM
Sorry I can't run any stats. I've asked numerous times for people to tell me how, but have been ignored.

Thank you anyway. I can't seem to find any documentation on it, either.

parasar
10-26-2015, 06:56 PM
Ust'-Ishim does have a rather large Oceanian and Onge part and the research paper explicitly stated they found no Denisovan admixture.

Not statistically significant I believe.
The paper does note:
"Ustí-Ishim probably does not share the small amount of Denisovan ancestry that has previously been reported for East Asians ...
There is a tendency, though not significant, for the Neandertal and Denisovan to share more alleles with Ustí-Ishim than with Western Eurasians"

epoch
10-26-2015, 07:06 PM
The Reich 2011 paper about Denisovan admixture modelled Sahullanders (is that a word?) as about half Onge-like and half something older with high Denisovan admixture. So there are a lot of possibilities for Oceanian affinity. There was also the recent paper arguing for a very early first wave out of Africa that contributed significantly to Sahullanders (maybe the ones who interbred with Denisovans?) - those first wavers could have contributed independently to different populations, and they weren't necessarily all Denisovan-admixed either.

Aha. I see you are entertaining yourself with the tought as well :-) The admixture has been found in some southern American Indians as well, as I stated before. I still remain it is probably nothing. But we sure can play around with the idea.

epoch
10-26-2015, 07:07 PM
Not statistically significant I believe.
The paper does note:
"Ust’-Ishim probably does not share the small amount of Denisovan ancestry that has previously been reported for East Asians ...
There is a tendency, though not significant, for the Neandertal and Denisovan to share more alleles with Ust’-Ishim than with Western Eurasians"

O. I entirely missed that.

Megalophias
10-27-2015, 12:27 AM
Sorry I can't run any stats. I've asked numerous times for people to tell me how, but have been ignored.
You need to download the software from the labs in question and run them in Linux I think. Won't work in Windows.