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BillMC
10-14-2015, 10:56 PM
I recently received my DNA results from Scotland's DNA. It came as a surprise to find that I have an 'Anglo Saxon' DNA marker which is I-S1954. I take it that this is not the only Anglo Saxon marker.

Scotland's DNA sent me a map of its distribution which includes 0.5% for Scotland, England and Holland, 1% for Denmark, Lower Saxony, NE Germany and N Poland, 0.1% for S Germany and 0.2% for Ireland. Surprisingly it was 2% for Wales, yet there was none in the actual ancestrial homeland of the Anglo Saxons - Schleswig-Holstein. Yes I know that the Anglo Saxons also included the Frisians and Jutes the later which in turn were called the Danes.

The reuslts have confused me when I try to put them into a historical perspective. How does Wales get the highest results -could this have been due to the Danish influence during the Viking period?

How can I relate these results to my Scottish heritage? I have a Highland surname representing a clan which occupied the central Highlands close to Loch Earn. I expected a Pictish, NE Irish or Norwegian Viking marker - certainly not an Anglo Saxon or Danish one. The settlements of these people were far removed from the central Highlands.

Yes there were Anglo Saxon and Danish settlers in Scotland during the Medieval period but they were only on the east and southern parts of Scotland. One of the maps sent by Scotland's DNA shows a regional distribution for the British Isles and the central Highlands of Scotland has 1% for this marker so too has the central east and SE of Scotland, but it doesn't appear anywhere else in Scotland. This compares with 2% for north England and Wales, 1% for central and SE England and Ulster.

In 685AD the Picts had a big battle with the Northumbrian Angles and defeated them- so maybe my distant ancester was one of the Angles enslaved by the Picts or possibly a maurading Danish Viking who raped my great, great, to the n'th degree Pictish grandmother. My mitrocondrial DNA is H3 which is common throughout western and central Europe.

Of course I expect that long before Anglo Saxon and Viking times interactions between Scotland and places on the other side of the North Sea were going on and that my ancester may have came to Scotland at any time since Neolithic times.

Is there anyone else here with the same marker as myself? I would also like to know if anyone has any historical explainations as to how this marker got to the various parts of Scotland and rest of the British Isles.

drabcon
10-23-2015, 09:44 AM
Hi Bill, you should think about joining the Z-140 facebook group. They can compare your results to others in your subclades who have BIG-Y tested. This may allow you estimate the regional distribution of common ancestors among members at different times in the past. The page is here https://www.facebook.com/groups/I1.Z140.YDNA.Project/

Brad

BillMC
10-24-2015, 01:40 PM
Thanks Brad. This is a closed group so I am still waiting until they accept me.

MacUalraig
10-24-2015, 05:08 PM
Bill, I'm not in your genetic group but have a paper trail back to Fortingall in Perthshire. Why would you expect Norse Vikings in the area you mention around Loch Earn? Also may I ask if you have an individual paper trail back to where your surname is most concentrated or are you just making a generic comment? My own surname has at least half a dozen different genetic lines in the highlands so even if you do personally trace to Loch Earn, I wouldn't be too surprised at whatever terminal SNP you end up with IMHO.

BillMC
10-25-2015, 10:15 PM
Bill, I'm not in your genetic group but have a paper trail back to Fortingall in Perthshire. Why would you expect Norse Vikings in the area you mention around Loch Earn? Also may I ask if you have an individual paper trail back to where your surname is most concentrated or are you just making a generic comment? My own surname has at least half a dozen different genetic lines in the highlands so even if you do personally trace to Loch Earn, I wouldn't be too surprised at whatever terminal SNP you end up with IMHO.

Hi MacUalraig,
I was under the impression that only four types of gene markers could be found throughout the Scottish Highlands - those of the post Ice Age hunter gatherers, those of the Picts, those of the Northern Irish and those of the Norwegean Vikings. The later two of course being more likely in the west rather than in the central or eastern Highlands.

Let's face it MacUalraig surely a Norwegean Viking marker would be more likely than an Anglo Saxon one - and this was the category that ScotlandsDNA described my one as being. I therefore find it very puzzling to put my gene marker into a historical context.

BTW I don't know what you mean by a 'paper trail'. All I know is that my clan name 'MacLaren' originates in the central Highlands near Loch Earn.

rncambron
10-25-2015, 10:45 PM
If you are a MacLaren you should be proud.
Obtain,read and memorise the book by Margaret MacLaren 'The MacLarens-A History of Clan Labhran'
The idea that a Scottish Clan is a homogeneous unit with DNA derived from an all dominant chief is mostly nonsense.The people of Perthshire were a mixed bag of sources.By the time your people took their recorded anglicised surname no doubt the local Chief was a MacLaren and hence your people took their name to secure protection but genetically the MacLaren subordinates were mostly distinct.The Chief's line was quite restricted as you will see in the book.

drabcon
10-26-2015, 05:56 AM
Hi Bill, Hopefully William has let you into the Z-140 group by now. I'm not in Z-140 but Z-138 so I can't look at your actual position in their tree

. . . . . .but what you should be able to do is place yourself in a cluster of other individuals with the same terminal SNP and then estimate the TMRCA and geographic spread of these people. This allows you to identify a likely location for this common paternal ancestor at that time. What you're after is the point at which all the names in you immediate subclade begin to cluster only in Scotland. Of course the resolution is limited by the number of other people who have already tested and so the common ancestor may well still be quite early (currently my closest MRCA is at around 100BC and definitely somewhere in Scandinavia), but as more people test you will get higher resolution and nearer to when surnames were introduced.

From what I've read I1 haplotypes like Z-140 & Z-138 most likely came into Scotland as either Roman foederati, Ango-Saxons, Danish or Norse vikings (Z-140 & Z-138 are just more common in southern Scandinavia/Denmark but they do occur in northern Scandinavia as well), or Normans. In general, each of these groups arrived at a quite different period which helps. If your MacLaren ancestors were based near Loch Earn, then the Norse vikings/galloglasses that raided into the Clyde would probably be the group that got closest to them geographically.

spruithean
10-26-2015, 09:30 PM
BillMC,

I also have a "highland" surname...

rncambron and drabcon are on the money here I feel,

ScotlandsDNA tends to label various haplogroups with "ethnic" nicknames without much to back up their claims, it is not at all unlikely for there to be Anglo-Saxon descendants in the highlands. Many Anglo-Saxons sought refuge in Scotland after 1066, also remember there were many "germanic" groups being permitted to settle in Scotland in the middle ages including Flemings, Brabanters, etc.

Z140 and it's subgroups could have come to Scotland in any of the ways Drabcon mentioned, from Roman foederati, Northumbrians (Anglo-Saxons), Scandinavian groups or even Flemings/Normans. Also the mention of the Clan MacLaren not being a homogenous group is accurate, there can be many progenitors for names like "MacLaren" or "Ferguson" or what have you, or broken men or people looking for protection would take on the local lords surname as previously mentioned in this thread.

Rory Cain
11-28-2015, 09:24 PM
Bill, I'm not in your genetic group but have a paper trail back to Fortingall in Perthshire...

We have corresponded on Anthrogenica sometimes but I have not followed up on the Fortingall connection that we share. I descend maternally from Blairs of Gartmore, Perthshire, with a further descent from a Menzies family in Laggan of Comrie near Comrie Castle, at the mouth of Glenlyon. One of that family married the daughter of Alexander McDougall of Drumcharry who forfeited that small estate for supporting Prince Charlie with the Atholl Brigade.

I believe that it is a local claim that what became St Andews University started here at Dull (I can see why it relocated). A famous piping school that rivalled the McCrimmons of Skye was also located here. Apparently Fortingall the place name can also be rendered as Fothergill the surname.

Yours is the only DNA sample I am immediately aware of from Fortingall, but I would expect a mix.

smparry
01-26-2016, 08:06 PM
Hi! I too have the surprizing Anglo-Saxon DNA marker I-S1954. My father's family came in the 11800's from Swansea, where there might be a Viking element. So far I can not et back further than 1750's on my direct line. I am also finding it hard to get much further information on this subgroup. My maternal DNA is H5a1p, which is easier to find in a UK pattern. Like you I would be interested in finding others with this marker, and so finding more about my ancestors. According to Genebase (which I used some years ago), one mutation seemed to have risen in the Croatian area about 18,000 years ago. But I've not been able to fins more.

Melcombe
02-14-2016, 08:07 PM
Is there anyone else here with the same marker as myself? I would also like to know if anyone has any historical explainations as to how this marker got to the various parts of Scotland and rest of the British Isles.



What ho, Cousin...

I have it - and I suspect my otherwise anglo-welsh ancestry is responsible in part for the incidence attributed to the Principality.

For my part, I'm delighted to have the connection (the rest of my results place me squarely in Europe). I understand the original S1954 concentrations run along the northern plains of Germany / Baltic coast? I was surprised that the incidence in GB is as low as 0.5%, although I understand the cultural influence of the Anglo-Saxon migration was much wider than its genetic contribution. I suspect that anywhere with decent farmland on the eastern side of GB was a reasonable place to turn up in a longboat and stay put - that goes for Lowland (modern) Scotland and up to & beyond Aberdeen ? (best potato country north of the border)

My understanding is that the ancient genetics of Scotland are marginally more diverse than for most of the rest of the UK? Since the sea was maybe more of a highway than a barrier to our ancient ancestors that's unsurprising perhaps. In any case as a keen student of agriculture, I'd say that hybrid vigour is something worth having.

Best wishes from the sunny south coast of England.

David

spruithean
07-28-2017, 02:21 AM
I'm going to revive this thread, as it did mention the I-S1954 as Anglo-Saxon, here are some interesting things to read through:

Aberlady Angles, fascinating Anglo-Saxon discovery in Aberlady, Scotland
https://aberladyangles.com/anglo-saxons/

Oswald & the Irish
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/ziegler.html

The Anglo-British Cemetery at Bamburgh
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Bamburgh.html

What's in a name?
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Matthews.html

Post-Severan Cramond:
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Cessford.html

spruithean
08-26-2017, 11:38 PM
Here are a few more interesting reads pertaining to Germanic cultures and history.

The Anglo-Saxon Runic Inscriptions
http://www.arild-hauge.com/eanglor.htm

Heroes, Saints, and Martyrs: Holy Kingship from Bede to Aelfric
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/9/hare.html

In search of Beowulf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C0sFXU0SLo
A fairly interesting watch, with some debatable comments made about the Anglo-Saxons and the Adventus Saxonum.

Bernicia/Bryneich
https://hefenfelth.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/lkm-berniciabryneich/

Dictionary of the Scots Language (Dictionar o the Scots Leid)
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/history-of-scots/origins/
Fairly interesting information here, I'm most interested in some of the mentions of early Anglo-Saxon involvement in Scotland and early cultural syncretism of Anglo-Saxons and Cumbrians.

spruithean
09-26-2017, 05:18 PM
Let's face it MacUalraig surely a Norwegean Viking marker would be more likely than an Anglo Saxon one - and this was the category that ScotlandsDNA described my one as being. I therefore find it very puzzling to put my gene marker into a historical context.

BTW I don't know what you mean by a 'paper trail'. All I know is that my clan name 'MacLaren' originates in the central Highlands near Loch Earn.

While I know the following could be coincidental, around the time of Edward I of England and the Ragman rolls notably in Lennox there was an individual with the name "Duncan son of Patrick mac Eadwulf (http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/7379/#)". He wasn't the only "Mac Edulf" in the area, there are a number of them:


Malcolm son of Gilla Micheil mac Eadwulf (http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/16015/#)
Duncan son of Gilla Micheil mac Eadwulf (http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/17637/#)
Duncan son of Eadwulf (http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/10224/#)


Gilla Micheil's wife seems to have also had a Celtic name "Mythoc" and another grandson of an Eadwulf, John son of Michael son of Eadwulf also had a wife with a Celtic name: Farbhlaidh (http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/16947/#).

I would imagine a few of these descendants of Eadwulf came as soldiers, as there is mention in an entry for Dunbartonshire history of a Duncan MacEdolf who is listed as a "militibus".


And more (http://db.poms.ac.uk/search/search?basic_search_type=people&query=Eadwulf&ordering=personfull&years=1093-1314&show_all=false)

Seems to me there were a number of men of (possible) Anglo-Saxon origin in areas typically ruled by Celtic mormaers. If you check out some of the people from Lothian, the Borders and Dumfries-Galloway on that website you'll find some interesting networks between families in modern Scotland and Cumbria/Northumberland.