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Arame
10-15-2015, 05:02 AM
We have a G2-P303 from Neolithic Anatolia. http://yfull.com/tree/G2a2b2a/
It is a relatively successful (compared to others ) Neolithic lineage because it is present from India to Europe. (1-3% frequency).
One of his subclades the P303>U1 is very frequent among Abkhaz-Adyghean nations (24-40%). It seems it is one of their main founder lineage.
Outside of Caucasus the U1 is either inexistant or rare. Except Turkey and Palestine where it can be explained by Circassian's forced migration. Also in Italy 1% (?)

Now the question is how, where and when the G2-U1 lineage got his ANE?
Because obviously his ancestral P303 didn't have it in Anatolia. But modern North West Caucasians have quite significant ANE (22-24%).

What theories we have? Was ANE natively present before the ENF farmers came in Caucasus or it came invaded later when ENF farmers were already established there.

lgmayka
10-15-2015, 10:13 AM
Outside of Caucasus the U1 is either inexistant or rare.
On YFull's haplotree, G-U1 (http://yfull.com/tree/G2a2b2a1a/) has been found among Belgians, Irish, and Mexicans.

Arame
10-15-2015, 12:40 PM
G-U1
Nortern/
Eastern Europe
Latvia 0.0
Estonia 0.8
Belorussia 0.3
Poland 0.0
Ukraine 0.5
Russia North 0.0
Russia west/central 0.0
Russia South 0.0
Kalmyks (Russia) 0.0
Bashkirs (Russia) 1.1
Mordvins (Russia) 0.0
Chuvashes (Russia) 0.0
Udmurts (Russia) 0.0
Tatars (Russia) 0.0
Western /Central
/SouthernEurope
Netherlands 0.0
Denmark 0.0
Germany 0.0
Czech 0.0
Slovakia 0.0
Slovaks Roma (gypsies) 0.0
Slovenia 1.0
Hungarians 0.0
Austria 0.0
Eastern Iberia 0.0
Southern Iberia 0.0
Western Iberia 0.0
Northern Iberia 0.0
Central Iberia 0.0
France 0.0
France, Provence 0.0
Sardinia set1 0.0
Sardinia set2 0.2
Corsica 0.0
Sicily 0.0
Italy 1.0
Switzerland 0.0
Balkan
Bosnians 0.0
Croatians 0.0
Moldovans 0.0
Romanians 0.0
Bulgarians 0.5
Crete 0.3
Greece 0.0
Near/Middle East
Morocco Berbers 0.0
Egypt 0.0
Jordan 0.0
Lebanese 0.0
Syria 0.0
Askenazi Jews 0.0
Non-Askenazi Jews 0.0
Qatar 0.0
United Arab Emirates 0.0
Oman 0.0
Yemen 0.0
Palestina 16.7
Druze (Israel) 0.0
Kurds Turkey (Cilicia) 0.0
Turkey West 0.6
Turkey Central 2.4
Turkey East 1.0
Greeks (Smyrna) 3.4
Greeks (Phocaea) 0.0
Assyrians 0.0
Azeris (Iran) 0.7
Iran set1 0.4
Iran set2 0.4
Caucasus South
Abkhazes 22.8
Armenians 1.4
Georgians 6.1
South Ossetians 0.0
Caucasus Northwest
Abasins 23.3
Adyghes 39.7
Balkars 6.6
Cherkessians 36.5
Kabardinians 29.1
Karachays 7.2
Nogays 6.9
North Ossetians 2.3
Caucasus Northeast
Andis 0.0
Avars 0.0
Bagvalals 0.0
Chamalals 0.0
Chechens 0.0
Darginians 0.0
Ingushes 0.0
Karanogays 0.0
Kumyks 7.9
Lezgis 0.0
Tabassarans 0.0
Mountain Jews 0.0
Central Asia
Kurds (Kazahstan) 0.0
Arabs (Kasashtan) 0.0
Kazakhs 1.1
Kyrgyz 0.7
Mongolia 0.0
South Asia
Pakistan 0.0
Parsis (India) 0.0

This are the frequencies of U1 in West Eurasia according to Rootsi et al. So I don't think my statement was erroneous. Some Europeans having U1 here and there are quite normal. After all NW Caucasus is in Europe geographically speaking, and very close to Steppe from where various movements toward Europe are attested.

I will go further and say that perhaps U1 didn't arrive in NW Caucasus directly from Anatolia but from Balkans via North of Black Sea. In this case it can be a movement related to Cucuteni Tripolye people. But this of course doesn't explain the ANE. The frequency of steppe R1a/R1b among them is not sufficient to explain the ANE also.

Arame
10-15-2015, 12:46 PM
The highest level of P303>U1 is among the Shapsugs a Circassian tribe. More than 80%.


These areas are a small part of historical Circassia, in addition to diaspora (Amman, Naour, Marj Al-hamam, Wadi Al Seer) Jordan, Turkey, Iraq, Israel (Kfar Kama), Syria, Europe, United States of America. The first Circassians to settle in Amman were from the Shapsug tribe and as a result the Shapsugs neighbourhood considered the oldest neighbourhood in the Capital Amman and was the down town of it,[1] however later other Circassians from the Kabardian, Abadzekh and Bzadoug tribes also came to Amman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapsugs

Arame
10-15-2015, 01:02 PM
Btw the U1 is just an approximation. It is quite possible that Caucasian specific U1 will have his own branch. The G-L1266 is a good candidate. http://yfull.com/tree/G-L1266/

The data from this U1 Project favour that idea.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-U1?iframe=yresults

Padre Organtino
10-16-2015, 08:51 AM
The most likely source for Caucasus ANE is a proto-Alarodian expansion from South-Central Asia (my guess).
You see that it has made very EEF-like porto-Armenians shift in the direction of North-East Caucasians in the Bronze Age.
Then with diffusion it has spread to proto-Kartvelians and NW-Caucasians.

Krefter
10-16-2015, 09:46 AM
R1b-Z103 and mtDNA? The G2-U1 could be founder effect.

Arame
10-16-2015, 02:04 PM
Krefter

According to Balanovsky NW Caucasians have various degree of R1a/R1b. But my impression is that their level is not sufficient to explain the ANE.
Shapsugs R1a 4% , R1b 0%
Abkhazians R1a 10.3 , R1b 12.1%
Circassians R1a 19.7% , R1b 4.9%

They also have some J2, L, Q also susceptible to bring some ANE.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yEhTXsNb4Rc/VgQxd4iqW8I/AAAAAAAADBE/pihFZPIQr5M/s1600/Balanovsky2011tab.JPG

For the mtDNA part I don't know much.

And this is the Yunusbayev 2011 with more data.samples, Abazins, Adyghe and Kabardins included.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/TnDt35U9quI/AAAAAAAAEHs/jbFjkOzRV5o/s1600/caucasus-ychrom.png

Arame
10-16-2015, 02:12 PM
Padre Organtino

Well my question was more about genetics than linguistics. But I agree that invasion from South Central Asia bringing ANE is very probable. Also I want to understand was the ANE natively present (with some hunter gatherers) before the EEF or this probable 'invasion' came after the EEF people established there.

Anabasis
10-16-2015, 03:02 PM
In my opinion ANE component should split into 2 piece. One is actually near eastern the other one is step type and those 2 piece is irrelevant with each other. But its a fact that north Caucasian populations have step influence by protecting their own native character dominantly. Thats why you are being confused by looking into Y haploypes along north caucasians.

Padre Organtino
11-09-2015, 04:30 PM
Padre Organtino

Well my question was more about genetics than linguistics. But I agree that invasion from South Central Asia bringing ANE is very probable. Also I want to understand was the ANE natively present (with some hunter gatherers) before the EEF or this probable 'invasion' came after the EEF people established there.

IMO, almost all of ANE has probably arrived later. At least to the South of Caucasus slopes (not sure about North). Otherwise at least some of ANE would have made it with Neolithic people into Europe.

Anabasis
11-09-2015, 07:09 PM
G-L1266 seems 7200 years old ( http://yfull.com/tree/G-L1266/ ) and its found also in great Britain. I suppose that U1 and G-L1266 might be neoletic clades. One reason this paternal line create a founder effect along north west Caucasian populations. You should not forget that the populations of Caucasia are mostly occured as founder effect of specific paternal lines due to high isolation level of mountains. And what i learned about that genetics, autosomal components does not correlate linear with YDNa haplogroups. Because in history while men kill men, men also rape women. But women can be alive but men mostly cant.

Tag Heuer
11-09-2015, 08:03 PM
G-L1266 seems 7200 years old ( http://yfull.com/tree/G-L1266/ ) and its found also in great Britain. I suppose that U1 and G-L1266 might be neoletic clades. One reason this paternal line create a founder effect along north west Caucasian populations. You should not forget that the populations of Caucasia are mostly occured as founder effect of specific paternal lines due to high isolation level of mountains. And what i learned about that genetics, autosomal components does not correlate linear with YDNa haplogroups. Because in history while men kill men, men also rape women. But women can be alive but men mostly cant.
Caucasian peoples have never lived isolated in mountains.

Anabasis
11-09-2015, 08:14 PM
Caucasian peoples have never lived isolated in mountains.

I have never seen "centralizied" empire-states in caucausia history. Most of the ethno- cultures lived thier own teritories altough sometimes they had some conflicts with each other. And each teritory partialy isolated with each other. Thats why high frequencies of haplogroups exsist in caucausia.

Tag Heuer
11-09-2015, 08:40 PM
I have never seen "centralizied" empire-states in caucausia history. Most of the ethno- cultures lived thier own teritories altough sometimes they had some conflicts with each other. And each teritory partialy isolated with each other. Thats why high frequencies of haplogroups exsist in caucausia.

Firstly, there hasn't been any Caucasian Empire, but there were states such as Durdzuk Country, Simsir, Serir, Tavasporan etc. Secondly, Caucasians were a part of Alania, Khazaria etc. Thirdly, what conflicts "sometimes with each other" are you talking about? And finally, high frequencies exist only among some populations in Dagestan (Kubachins and some Tsez people) and among Ingush people - thats it. Check information carefully before you write something like you just wrote above. And yeah , how "having empire" relates to "being isolated in mountains"? If you don't have empire you should go to mountains? Very interesting.

Coldmountains
11-09-2015, 08:47 PM
IMO, almost all of ANE has probably arrived later. At least to the South of Caucasus slopes (not sure about North). Otherwise at least some of ANE would have made it with Neolithic people into Europe.

ANE in the Caucasus must be very old. If it arrived with Indo-Europeans from the north WHG would be higher and I also don't think it arrived after the Neolithic age else the Caucasian population with whom Yamnaya mixed would have no ANE but they had a lot.

Padre Organtino
11-09-2015, 08:50 PM
ANE in the Caucasus must be very old. If it arrived with Indo-Europeans from the north WHG would be higher and I also don't think it arrived after the Neolithic age else the Caucasian population with whom Yamnaya mixed would have no ANE but they had a lot.

Well, yes, if by "old" you mean 3-4 thousand years BC then it was there at that time. If e talk about 6-7 thousand years BC then I think the answer is No.

Anabasis
11-09-2015, 08:53 PM
Firstly, there hasn't been any Caucasian Empire, but there were states such as Durdzuk Country, Simsir, Serir, Tavasporan etc. Secondly, Caucasians were a part of Alania, Khazaria etc. Thirdly, what conflicts "sometimes with each other" are you talking about? And finally, high frequencies exist only among some populations in Dagestan (Kubachins and some Tsez people) and among Ingush people - thats it. Check information carefully before you write something like you just wrote above. And yeah , how "having empire" relates to "being isolated in mountains"? If you don't have empire you should go to mountains? Very interesting.

Being isolated peacefully in mountains is much more positive for me rater then being empire. And being isolated in a specific place makes those pops ancient and native which is something good for me. And most of the caucasian populations have high frequancies of specific haplogroups. (if you compare anatolia and iran, Caucause pops are absolutely Isolated)

Tag Heuer
11-09-2015, 08:54 PM
In Transcaucasia isolated populations are mostly Zan-Kartvelian peoples, as they have very high frequencies of G hg and also they score high in ME in FamilyFinder tests whereas (North) Caucasians, in this case Chechens, usually have 50-60% Caucasus, then Europe (W. Europe, Scandinavia and Finland) and then Iranian cluster (Balochi, Kurds, Pashtuns + Dardic Kalash people) ( the rest of Caucasians usually have Eastern Europe instead of Western). Chechens are predominantly J2, then goes J1, L3, the rest are L2, Q1a, R1a, R1b, G2, I2.

Coldmountains
11-09-2015, 08:58 PM
Well, yes, if by "old" you mean 3-4 thousand years BC then it was there at that time. If e talk about 6-7 thousand years BC then I think the answer is No.

EEFs were from Anatolia and not the Caucasus so the lack of ANE among them is not proving that it was absent in the Caucasus during that period. Already Khvalynsk people had some Near Eastern/Caucasian teal ancestry which included some ANE. So it must be older in the Caucasus than 6000 years in my opinion.

Tag Heuer
11-09-2015, 08:59 PM
Being isolated peacefully in mountains is much more positive for me rater then being empire. And being isolated in a specific place makes those pops ancient and native which is something good for me. And most of the caucasian populations have high frequancies of specific haplogroups. (if you compare anatolia and iran, Caucause pops are absolutely Isolated)
And if u compare Anatolians/Turks to Scots, Basque people, English people Europeans are isolated too. I don't state that being isolated is bad, but isolated were only some certain Caucasian populations which reflected in their haplogroup frequencies and autosomal results.

Padre Organtino
11-09-2015, 09:02 PM
EEFs were from Anatolia and not the Caucasus so the lack of ANE among them is not proving that it was absent in the Caucasus during that period. Already Khvalynsk people had some Near Eastern/Caucasian teal ancestry which included some ANE. So it must be older in the Caucasus than 6000 years in my opinion.

Except both you and I know Khvalynsk is a little far from Caucasus for that. IMO teal came from Central Asia where Neolithic MENAs have mixed with ANE hunter-gatherers. Some of teal people mixed with EHG early on around Volga.
Then there was a back migration to Middle East and Caucasus. We see a very sudden and rapid advancement of cultures like Kura-Araxes. They probably represent these people.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-09-2015, 09:52 PM
Being isolated peacefully in mountains is much more positive for me rater then being empire. And being isolated in a specific place makes those pops ancient and native which is something good for me. And most of the caucasian populations have high frequancies of specific haplogroups. (if you compare anatolia and iran, Caucause pops are absolutely Isolated)

i think this idea is more based on romantic visions than fact. Caucasus peoples weren't living "isolated in mountains". The Caucasus has long served as a gateway from the steppe to be south, and vice-versa. And most communities lived down on the plains, they just had the option to also exploit highland pastures during winter seasons, etc.
aDNA will tell us more, but perhaps the Caucasus has seen its fair share of admixture and even replacement. I doubt it's a place which has been "frozen in time".

Coldmountains
11-09-2015, 09:58 PM
Except both you and I know Khvalynsk is a little far from Caucasus for that. IMO teal came from Central Asia where Neolithic MENAs have mixed with ANE hunter-gatherers. Some of teal people mixed with EHG early on around Volga.
Then there was a back migration to Middle East and Caucasus. We see a very sudden and rapid advancement of cultures like Kura-Araxes. They probably represent these people.

Davidski has shown that the population closest to the Near Eastern Ancestry of Yamnaya are Georgians and not Central Asians. Also we know that some Caucasian groups influenced the material culture of Neolithic steppe groups. Central Asia is too far away to be the source for teal in Yamnaya and i don't know of archaeological links between Central Asia and the Neolithic European steppe. East of Volga there were unlikely any Teal or ENF people with whom EHGs could mix. Teal people lived more in the south in Turkmenistan and Tajikistan but I don't think that people migrated from here to East Europe.

ZephyrousMandaru
11-09-2015, 10:24 PM
i think this idea is more based on romantic visions than fact. Caucasus peoples weren't living "isolated in mountains". The Caucasus has long served as a gateway from the steppe to be south, and vice-versa. And most communities lived down on the plains, they just had the option to also exploit highland pastures during winter seasons, etc.
aDNA will tell us more, but perhaps the Caucasus has seen its fair share of admixture and even replacement. I doubt it's a place which has been "frozen in time".

I agree, the Caucasus was populated by a Near Eastern farmers (from various parts of the Middle East, which includes Anatolia, the Fertile Crescent and perhaps even the Levant). All teal is, is a mesh of Near Eastern (Anatolian farmers, Fertile Crescent farmers, Levantine farmers) and ANE. During the Out-of-Africa migration, humans left Africa and initially entered the Middle East through the Bab-el-Mandeb (the land between Ethiopia and Yemen) through island hopping and also through Levantine corridor and colonized the Middle East. So we know that the Caucasus isn't "frozen in time" and had to have been inhabited by humans at some point.

Ashkenazim Jews are also relatively isolated, as are the Kalash, which is why Non-South-Central Asians score a percentage in each of these clusters. It signals an inverse genetic contribution from the Non-Kalash and Non-Ashkenazim Jewish populations into their respective gene pools, rather than the other way around. This is phenomenon is mirrored in Caucasian populations. When using only modern reference populations, MA-1 scores a considerable amount of Caucasus related admixture, this doesn't mean that MA-1 has Caucasian admixture, rather the other way around is true.

ZephyrousMandaru
11-09-2015, 10:26 PM
It's true that the source of Near Eastern admixture in Yamnaya is best represented by Georgians, however this doesn't inform us on why that is or where this Near Eastern admixture in Georgians is from. One clue might be that they acquired it from the Anatolian farmers, but in lieu of Near Eastern aDNA from other regions, this is currently our best estimation as to where it could have come from. In time, we'll learn more about how this Near Eastern admixture in Georgians is characterized.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-09-2015, 10:52 PM
Davidski has shown that the population closest to the Near Eastern Ancestry of Yamnaya are Georgians and not Central Asians. Also we know that some Caucasian groups influenced the material culture of Neolithic steppe groups. Central Asia is too far away to be the source for teal in Yamnaya and i don't know of archaeological links between Central Asia and the Neolithic European steppe. East of Volga there were unlikely any Teal or ENF people with whom EHGs could mix. Teal people lived more in the south in Turkmenistan and Tajikistan but I don't think that people migrated from here to East Europe.

Well, the Georgian farmer theory was known from Haak et al; who first advocated that model in absence of other evidence- and anything subsequent to that is nothing revolutionary or new. Perhaps it has stood up to closer scrutiny by others' analyses; but I'm not sure we should be making too confident an assertion when half of Eurasia hasn't yet been sampled- even if what we expect gives us geographical limits

Anabasis
11-09-2015, 11:20 PM
i think this idea is more based on romantic visions than fact. Caucasus peoples weren't living "isolated in mountains". The Caucasus has long served as a gateway from the steppe to be south, and vice-versa. And most communities lived down on the plains, they just had the option to also exploit highland pastures during winter seasons, etc.
aDNA will tell us more, but perhaps the Caucasus has seen its fair share of admixture and even replacement. I doubt it's a place which has been "frozen in time".

Well of course time wasnt frozen in Caucaus but i regret that it was a gateway. Caucaus was a great barrier between isolating steps and Middle East -Anatolia. ( I dont claim that there wasnt gene flow but it reduced that possible gene flow dramaticly)

Silesian
11-09-2015, 11:29 PM
ANE in the Caucasus must be very old. If it arrived with Indo-Europeans from the north WHG would be higher and I also don't think it arrived after the Neolithic age else the Caucasian population with whom Yamnaya mixed would have no ANE but they had a lot.
Just for fun; and to compare later, when the Mathieson et al 2015 http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477 data is converted onto
Gedmatch. http://v2.gedmatch.com/login1.php

Kostenki k14_36k+/- sample-


6604
Eurogenes K7
6603
MDLP K13 Ultimate
6605
Eurasia K14 Neolithic
6606

Gravetto-Danubian
11-09-2015, 11:34 PM
Well of course time wasnt frozen in Caucaus but i regret that it was a gateway. Caucaus was a great barrier between isolating steps and Middle East -Anatolia. ( I dont claim that there wasnt gene flow but it reduced that possible gene flow dramaticly)

Well, it depends on definition of barrier. But most of the flow between Asia, the near east and the steppe in the copper age and early Bronze Age was via the Caucasus rather than the Kazakh-east caspian region.
The transmission of ideas and genes through the Caucasus is abundantly clear and not really debatable

Generalissimo
11-09-2015, 11:47 PM
Well, the Georgian farmer theory was known from Haak et al; who first advocated that model in absence of other evidence- and anything subsequent to that is nothing revolutionary or new.

Where does it say in Haak that Georgians are the best proxy for the Near Eastern related ancestry in Yamnaya?


Except both you and I know Khvalynsk is a little far from Caucasus for that.

Khvalynsk people had contacts with North Caucasian Eneolithic groups.

Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik > teal in Khvalynsk

The North Caucasus Piedmont: Eneolithic Farmers Before Maykop (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=nLIufwC4szwC&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik&source=bl&ots=DELn50uS7g&sig=DeB55fGbij97Y9z6u-FHlk9O4ls&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIlrXk_MGEyQIVQiCmCh0EWgef#v=on epage&q=Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik&f=false)

Gravetto-Danubian
11-10-2015, 03:03 AM
Where does it say in Haak that Georgians are the best proxy for the Near Eastern related ancestry in Yamnaya?

My bad (major brain freeze)! Haak used Armenians. :beerchug:





Khvalynsk people had contacts with North Caucasian Eneolithic groups.

Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik > teal in Khvalynsk

The North Caucasus Piedmont: Eneolithic Farmers Before Maykop (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=nLIufwC4szwC&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik&source=bl&ots=DELn50uS7g&sig=DeB55fGbij97Y9z6u-FHlk9O4ls&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIlrXk_MGEyQIVQiCmCh0EWgef#v=on epage&q=Meshoko-Svobodnoe-Zamok-Nalchik&f=false)

Yes they did. But before these Mezhoko Eneolithic groups from c. 5000 BC, what was there in the Nth Caucasus ? not much apparently. And what was the Nth Caucasian Eneolithic groups' origins ? Anthony a argues that the Meshoko- Novosvod-Majkop groups cuktures look different to the steppe; but they're also different to groups south of the Caucasus.

Genetically, we can surmise a Georgian-like group, but the Georgian like groups itself received impulses from elsewhere..


Btw Majkop weren't "farmers". They were pastoralists and metallurgists which influenced the incipient Yamnaya groups greatly

J Man
11-10-2015, 03:29 AM
In Transcaucasia isolated populations are mostly Zan-Kartvelian peoples, as they have very high frequencies of G hg and also they score high in ME in FamilyFinder tests whereas (North) Caucasians, in this case Chechens, usually have 50-60% Caucasus, then Europe (W. Europe, Scandinavia and Finland) and then Iranian cluster (Balochi, Kurds, Pashtuns + Dardic Kalash people) ( the rest of Caucasians usually have Eastern Europe instead of Western). Chechens are predominantly J2, then goes J1, L3, the rest are L2, Q1a, R1a, R1b, G2, I2.

You are Chechen yourself?

parasar
11-10-2015, 03:30 AM
We have no ancient DNA evidence from northern South Asia.
So it speculative at best. All we know is that places about 700 miles to the west of Georgia had no ANE in the Neolithic.

Plus from what we have seen, based on modern populations, modern Armenians & Georgians best fit as Neolithic + South Asian.

Lazaridis et al. the lowest f3-stat for Armenians, Georgians, etc. is EEF+South Asian "EEF South Asian Armenian, Georgian****, Georgian_Jew*, Iranian_Jew***, Iraqi_Jew***"
Table 1: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2014_Nature_Lazaridis_EuropeThreeAncestries.pdf

Haber et al. the lowest f3-stat for Armenians is Sardinians+Central & South Asians "Central and South Asians Sardinians -0.00110183 -16.261"
Table 1: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/18/015396.full.pdf

Haak et al. "However, the lowest Z-score of statistics of the form f3(Armenian; X, Y) involves the (X, Y) = (LBK_EN, Sindhi) pair (value -0.00575, Z=-15.3), so the signal of admixture from the Yamnaya is not the strongest one for Armenians. Moreover, as shown in SI 7, the Yamnaya have a negative f3-statistic with (X, Y) = (Karelia_HG, Armenian). A negative statistic for both Armenians and Yamnaya with each other as a reference population may suggest that a third (unsampled) population admixed into both the Yamnaya and to Armenians."

And we do not know as yet what/where about that potential third population.

Generalissimo
11-10-2015, 03:49 AM
Plus from what we have seen, based on modern populations, modern Armenians & Georgians best fit as Neolithic + South Asian.

f3 doesn't provide a model of a fit, it's a test of admixture. But because it can detect admixture in the absence of the true sources of gene flow, there's no way of knowing how accurate its output is.

Georgians have barely any ASI, or maybe even none, so they can't actually be modeled as significantly South Asian.

You're also ignoring what I just posted, which is that the Near Eastern related admixture entered the steppe during the Khvalynsk period, and Khvalynsk had contacts with the North Caucasian groups I mentioned.

Padre Organtino
11-10-2015, 04:13 AM
In Transcaucasia isolated populations are mostly Zan-Kartvelian peoples, as they have very high frequencies of G hg and also they score high in ME in FamilyFinder tests whereas (North) Caucasians, in this case Chechens, usually have 50-60% Caucasus, then Europe (W. Europe, Scandinavia and Finland) and then Iranian cluster (Balochi, Kurds, Pashtuns + Dardic Kalash people) ( the rest of Caucasians usually have Eastern Europe instead of Western). Chechens are predominantly J2, then goes J1, L3, the rest are L2, Q1a, R1a, R1b, G2, I2.

Actually Georgian haplogroups are much more of a salad bowl with J2 and R1b being very frequent in the Eastern part of the country. As for the isolation - most Northern Caucasus is actually more "inbred" so to say simply due to greater village isolation. Especially true for Ingushetiya and Dagestan. Less for Chechnya maybe. The fact that NCs are initially more heterogenous than SCs is not very important here.

parasar
11-10-2015, 04:56 AM
f3 doesn't provide a model of a fit, it's a test of admixture. But because it can detect admixture in the absence of the true sources of gene flow, there's no way of knowing how accurate its output is.

Georgians have barely any ASI, or maybe even none, so they can't actually be modeled as significantly South Asian.

You're also ignoring what I just posted, which is that the Near Eastern related admixture entered the steppe during the Khvalynsk period, and Khvalynsk had contacts with the North Caucasian groups I mentioned.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind about ASI:
First, it is very diverse, and it is not easy to be close to a highly diverse population.
Second, it is quite isolated, after separation from ANI ancestors it stayed apart for long before admixing with ANI.

It is not clear to me as yet what Near Eastern related means. Yamna has Near Eastern related, right, but no EEF. But isn't EEF also considered to be Near Eastern related.

Tag Heuer
11-10-2015, 08:08 AM
Actually Georgian haplogroups are much more of a salad bowl with J2 and R1b being very frequent in the Eastern part of the country. As for the isolation - most Northern Caucasus is actually more "inbred" so to say simply due to greater village isolation. Especially true for Ingushetiya and Dagestan. Less for Chechnya maybe. The fact that NCs are initially more heterogenous than SCs is not very important here.
you're right, J2 is very frequent on the east of Georgia in Tusheti, Kakheti, Mtiuleti etc. It's believed that these peoples have Chechen and Ingush origin.

Padre Organtino
11-10-2015, 09:16 AM
you're right, J2 is very frequent on the east of Georgia in Tusheti, Kakheti, Mtiuleti etc. It's believed that these peoples have Chechen and Ingush origin.

They have Vainakh admixture but even Batsbis speak a language that's quite distinct from Chechen-Ingush.

Shaikorth
11-10-2015, 09:32 AM
We have no ancient DNA evidence from northern South Asia.
So it speculative at best. All we know is that places about 700 miles to the west of Georgia had no ANE in the Neolithic.

Plus from what we have seen, based on modern populations, modern Armenians & Georgians best fit as Neolithic + South Asian.

Lazaridis et al. the lowest f3-stat for Armenians, Georgians, etc. is EEF+South Asian "EEF South Asian Armenian, Georgian****, Georgian_Jew*, Iranian_Jew***, Iraqi_Jew***"
Table 1: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2014_Nature_Lazaridis_EuropeThreeAncestries.pdf

Haber et al. the lowest f3-stat for Armenians is Sardinians+Central & South Asians "Central and South Asians Sardinians -0.00110183 -16.261"
Table 1: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/18/015396.full.pdf

Haak et al. "However, the lowest Z-score of statistics of the form f3(Armenian; X, Y) involves the (X, Y) = (LBK_EN, Sindhi) pair (value -0.00575, Z=-15.3), so the signal of admixture from the Yamnaya is not the strongest one for Armenians. Moreover, as shown in SI 7, the Yamnaya have a negative f3-statistic with (X, Y) = (Karelia_HG, Armenian). A negative statistic for both Armenians and Yamnaya with each other as a reference population may suggest that a third (unsampled) population admixed into both the Yamnaya and to Armenians."

And we do not know as yet what/where about that potential third population.

The lowest f3-stats Everest got for Georgians and Armenians using a very wide variety of samples (project members and academic) involved North Africans and Samaritians + MA-1. Sardinians and South Asians were included in those runs, but their stats were weaker. Results involving Sardinians had the most negative z-scores in the case of Armenians though.

Arame
11-10-2015, 01:12 PM
Shaikort
Thanks. That was a news for me.
Is there any link on that Everest's study?

parasar
11-10-2015, 01:43 PM
I believe it was in the treemix thread
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software&p=43494&viewfull=1#post43494

Shaikort
Thanks. That was a news for me.
Is there any link on that Everest's study?

Shaikorth
11-10-2015, 02:02 PM
Shaikort
Thanks. That was a news for me.
Is there any link on that Everest's study?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lxOPNZ8lPEHzFHDoqE8Lpjh9mC0BrOQUg7jrIygZIOA/edit?pli=1

Tag Heuer
11-10-2015, 06:11 PM
They have Vainakh admixture but even Batsbis speak a language that's quite distinct from Chechen-Ingush.

Bats language is close to Chechen Highlanders' dialects. The main barrier is high amount of borrowings from Georgian language in Bats lang.

Inal
03-18-2016, 10:01 PM
Hello Arame. Is there an alternative name for ANE? Which calculator should I use to find out my ANE score? I'm asking because all my ancestors are also from the Northwest Caucasus. I'm from the Circassian sub-branch of Kebertei (Cabardians).

I shared some of my Gedmatch results here.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6683-Interpreting-my-Gedmatch-results

MonkeyDLuffy
04-08-2016, 02:07 PM
Hello Arame. Is there an alternative name for ANE? Which calculator should I use to find out my ANE score? I'm asking because all my ancestors are also from the Northwest Caucasus. I'm from the Circassian sub-branch of Kebertei (Cabardians).

I shared some of my Gedmatch results here.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6683-Interpreting-my-Gedmatch-results

Eurogenes ANE K7