N1b without the transversion from 16176 G to A

[dhunter]

Hi all,

I am N1b 16176G (I do not have the transversion from G-A) what is the DNA community calling this now?

From what I have read N1b with the transversion from 16176G to A (16176A) is called N1b2 and closely associated with European Jews.

So what is N1b with 16176G called ? Also what people are associated with this group ?

Thanks!

[lgmayka]

According to the latest mtDNA phylotree (http://phylotree.org/tree/subtree_N.htm), N1b itself has the C16176g mutation. N1b1b then has the further G16176A mutation. Again, this is according to the very latest terminology (which may or may not be what your testing company is using).

Take a look at the mtDNA results in the Polish(-Lithuanian Commonwealth) Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults). Search for C16176g . You will find plenty of entries, most of them apparently Polish or Lithuanian. I suspect that FTDNA is using a slightly older terminology, according to which N1b2 has 16176A.

[dhunter]

Ok so I am just N1b, from what I am seeing N1b is being called N1b1 ?

So what groups are currently associated with N1b?

[lgmayka]

So what groups are currently associated with N1b?
Take a look at the mtDNA N Project results (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nmtdna/default.aspx?section=mtresults).

[dhunter]

Looks like all non jewish people without the 16176 G to A transversion, interesting.

[Cellachán]

Interesting also to note that after the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth areas+Belarus, that the next most amount of N1b1b (archaic terminology now, it seems) is South Italy.

[Cellachán]

I don't have much to support this notion, but in the case of N1b1/N1b1b's such as myself (with maternal roots in eastern europe), I've lately given some thought if there is a Roma connection. I know the haplogroup is not particularly South Asian, but it is known that the early Roma first traveled to the middle east with some picking up genes there and Then some time later heading towards Europe....i..e. males of indian origin with a proto-roma identity could have lived in the near east for some time, married a local woman, moved to Europe and became "Romani".

23andMe does not detect any South Asian in my mother, so if it's there it obviously is more distant than 200-500 years ago. I've not tested her or myself on ancestryDNA, which apparently goes back a bit further.

Her known ancestry is 1/2 East Euro (Belarusians of "simultaneous" Polish and Russian self-proclaimed identity), 1/4 Danish, 1/4 remainder split between German (Swabian, I Believe), and 1/16 Ashkenazi.

My mom's Eurogenes K13:
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 37.28
2 North_Atlantic 32.84
3 West_Med 11.92
4 East_Med 6.83
5 West_Asian 5.66
6 South_Asian 1.77
7 Red_Sea 1.43
8 Siberian 1.39


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Polish @ 5.615799
2 Hungarian @ 6.944128
3 Croatian @ 7.364062
4 East_German @ 7.437738
5 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 7.537293
6 Ukrainian @ 8.367209
7 Polish @ 9.347516
8 Austrian @ 9.387593
9 Moldavian @ 11.180273
10 Southwest_Finnish @ 12.414995
11 Southwest_Russian @ 12.811396
12 Russian_Smolensk @ 12.933526
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 13.416420
14 Estonian_Polish @ 13.507435
15 Belorussian @ 13.618048
16 North_Swedish @ 14.169118
17 Serbian @ 15.586457
18 Finnish @ 15.714602
19 Estonian @ 16.162874
20 Kargopol_Russian @ 16.297646

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_German +50% South_Polish @ 2.123548


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Estonian_Polish +25% Orcadian +25% Romanian @ 1.106264


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++
1 Estonian + Estonian_Polish + Serbian + South_Dutch @ 0.994914
2 French + Hungarian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Russian @ 1.006805
3 Lithuanian + North_Italian + North_Swedish + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.031910
4 East_German + Polish + Serbian + Southwest_Finnish @ 1.041756
5 Estonian + Russian_Smolensk + Serbian + South_Dutch @ 1.048694
6 Estonian_Polish + Hungarian + South_Dutch + Southwest_Russian @ 1.097012
7 Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Orcadian + Romanian @ 1.106264
8 Estonian + Lithuanian + Romanian + South_Dutch @ 1.110855
9 Estonian + French + Lithuanian + Serbian @ 1.130045
10 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Romanian + Southwest_English @ 1.159342
11 Estonian + Estonian_Polish + Serbian + West_German @ 1.160213
12 Lithuanian + North_Italian + North_Swedish + Southwest_Russian @ 1.169903
13 Estonian_Polish + French + South_Polish + South_Polish @ 1.170097
14 Belorussian + Croatian + South_Dutch + South_Polish @ 1.170770
15 East_German + Russian_Smolensk + Serbian + Southwest_Finnish @ 1.178339
16 Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Hungarian + South_Dutch @ 1.185554
17 Estonian_Polish + Hungarian + Russian_Smolensk + South_Dutch @ 1.188112
18 Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Orcadian + Serbian @ 1.195627
19 Croatian + Estonian_Polish + South_Dutch + South_Polish @ 1.197117
20 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Romanian + Southeast_English @ 1.197196

So far pretty firmly northern european, yes? (of course without saying, mixed between east and west)

Here is her ran with the Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer+Farmer tool. (Note: I realise this isn't a very serious tool, runs off of some outdated assumptions, etc.)...the reason I am posting it is because the South Asian Hunter-Gatherer to my quick glance seems a Tad high? How do europeans tend to score here?


Population
Anatolian Farmer 8.92
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 60.60
Middle Eastern Herder 2.11
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.30
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 2.41
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 1.16
East African Pastoralist 0.27
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
Mediterranean Farmer 24.22
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer -

Heck, for shits and giggles, how about Harrapaworld

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 50.95
2 Mediterranean 24.54
3 Caucasian 10.38
4 Baloch 9.38
5 SW-Asian 1.60
6 S-Indian 1.26


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 hungarian_behar @ 5.460579
2 slovenian_xing @ 5.686664
3 n-european_xing @ 7.096649
4 utahn-white_hapmap @ 8.715175
5 utahn-white_1000genomes @ 9.697888
6 ukranian_yunusbayev @ 10.993290
7 british_1000genomes @ 11.690642
8 orcadian_hgdp @ 12.927253
9 french_hgdp @ 14.844302
10 serbian_harappa @ 16.211567
11 belorussian_behar @ 16.451572
12 mordovian_yunusbayev @ 16.824457
13 russian_behar @ 18.336557
14 russian_hgdp @ 19.911428
15 romanian-a_behar @ 21.838100
16 lithuanian_behar @ 23.665443
17 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 24.335606
18 chuvash_behar @ 24.831873
19 spaniard_behar @ 27.722132
20 italian_hgdp @ 28.489140

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% french_hgdp +50% mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.806484


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% orcadian_hgdp +25% romanian-a_behar +25% russian_behar @ 1.708005


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
1 mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.202198
2 mordovian_yunusbayev + n-european_xing + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar @ 1.309754
3 mordovian_yunusbayev + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.446860
4 bulgarian_yunusbayev + mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp @ 1.471657
5 british_1000genomes + mordovian_yunusbayev + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.479961
6 mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.508562
7 bulgarian_yunusbayev + mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.515004
8 british_1000genomes + mordovian_yunusbayev + n-european_xing + serbian_harappa @ 1.524366
9 mordovian_yunusbayev + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.535319
10 british_1000genomes + mordovian_yunusbayev + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.537508
11 british_1000genomes + mordovian_yunusbayev + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.616722
12 mordovian_yunusbayev + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_hapmap + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.667432
13 british_1000genomes + mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar @ 1.676013
14 british_1000genomes + romanian-a_behar + russian_hgdp + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.681672
15 mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar @ 1.688906
16 bulgarian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + russian_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.691876
17 mordovian_yunusbayev + n-european_xing + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.694427
18 mordovian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.706063
19 orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + romanian-a_behar + russian_behar @ 1.708005
20 bulgarian_yunusbayev + orcadian_hgdp + russian_hgdp + utahn-white_hapmap @ 1.714949

MDLP World 4?
# Population Percent
1 North_and_East_European 44.74
2 South_and_West_European 37.52
3 Caucaus_Parsia 8.79
4 Middle_East 5.09
5 Indian 2.32


Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ukrainian-West @ 4.246828
2 Croatian_V @ 4.392070
3 Ukrainian_V @ 4.737345
4 Slovakian @ 5.211855
5 Latvian_V @ 5.455017
6 German @ 5.834690
7 Czech @ 6.293179
8 Ukrainian-Center @ 6.381220
9 Sorb @ 7.275447
10 German-North @ 7.519333
11 Slovenian @ 8.183615
12 Ukrainian-East @ 8.295634
13 Ukrainian @ 8.349366
14 Hungarian @ 8.359639
15 Russian_cossack @ 8.792766
16 Belarusian_V @ 8.924065
17 Croatian @ 9.356253
18 Mordovian_V @ 9.530561
19 Russian_South @ 9.603542
20 Swedish_V @ 9.646342

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romania +50% Latvian @ 1.965018


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Estonian +25% Romania +25% Gagauz @ 1.512831


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Latvian_V + Russian_cossack + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.252789
2 Latvian_V + Romania + Latvian + Ukrainian-West @ 1.263167
3 Latvian_V + Romania + Ukrainian-West + Lithuanian @ 1.276222
4 Latvian_V + Ukrainian + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.290395
5 Latvian_V + Russian_V + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.293797
6 Latvian_V + Romania + Ukrainian-East + Belarusian @ 1.300078
7 Latvian_V + Polish + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.314405
8 Latvian_V + Estonian + Romania + Ukrainian-West @ 1.322498
9 Latvian_V + Romania + Belarusian + Polish_V @ 1.352003
10 Latvian_V + Ukrainian_V + Romania + Lithuanian @ 1.370356
11 Latvian_V + Ukrainian_V + Romania + Latvian @ 1.384014
12 Latvian_V + Russian_South + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.394865
13 Latvian_V + Russian_Center + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.412204
14 Latvian_V + Belarusian_V + Romania + Belarusian @ 1.426838
15 Estonian + Romania + Latvian + Gagauz @ 1.441854
16 Romania + Latvian + Latvian + Gagauz @ 1.446915
17 Latvian_V + Romania + Lithuanian + Ukrainian-Center @ 1.455531
18 Latvian_V + Romania + Lithuanian_V + Ukrainian-Center @ 1.456314
19 Russian_V + Romania + Ukrainian-Center + Ukrainian-Center @ 1.458770
20 Latvian_V + Ukrainian_V + Estonian + Romania @ 1.508467

I don't suspect it's there, nor do I care if it is or it isn't. Just been going at all angles, trying to figure out the origin of my haplo.

What do you crazy kats think?