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J Man
10-20-2015, 09:09 PM
Haplogroup J2a is probably the second most common Y-DNA haplogroup found among Arabs. I came across this project today which looks rather interesting. It focuses on the J2a-PH4970 Wael/Anizzah - Rabi'ah Adnanite tribes. I am quite curious about this. بنو وائل (The sons of Wael) and وائل (Wael) are mentioned for a number of the results in this project. Does anyone know exactly who ''Wael'' is?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Wayeel/default.aspx?section=yresults

ChrisR
10-21-2015, 12:21 AM
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabi%60ah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Bakr

Babylon_74
06-24-2016, 11:50 PM
J-M410 and especially the L26 is widely found in eastern Arab world including modern day Arabian peninsula,Iraq,Syria,Jordan, Israel(Palestine),and of course Lebanon.
Not only found in some tribal sectors of Eniza (Beni Wael) in Arabian Peninsula.It's actually a vital sub-group of many Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq such as Benu 'Amer-Obadah Tribe,Beni Asad (M92) both of are Adnanite,El-Soudan-Kinda Tribe (PF4610) and it's also available in Beni Saeed tribe,and Bou Darraj tribe ,needless to say it's also found in other western parts of Iraq including Beni Tay'-Mafarjah (PF5160),Beni Tay'-ElAssaf (F3133),and one sector of Dulaim tribe-Bou Mhall(PF5160) and also found in El-Serhan tribe in North-western Arabian Peninsula/Jordan (PF5160),Lukhm tribe in Levant (M319),Beni Sakhr tribe in Jordan(L1064)...etc

Babylon_74
06-24-2016, 11:58 PM
I have also to mention that J-M410 and L26 is also found in South West Asian populations such as Kurdish tribes,which is also make sense since that M410 predates both the composition of both Arabs and Kurds.

I can name couple of famous Kurdish tribes such as Talbani,Horami,Jaff....etc

J Man
06-25-2016, 12:33 AM
J-M410 and especially the L26 is widely found in eastern Arab world including modern day Arabian peninsula,Iraq,Syria,Jordan, Israel(Palestine),and of course Lebanon.
Not only found in some tribal sectors of Eniza (Beni Wael) in Arabian Peninsula.It's actually a vital sub-group of many Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq such as Benu 'Amer-Obadah Tribe,Beni Asad (M92) both of are Adnanite,El-Soudan-Kinda Tribe (PF4610) and it's also available in Beni Saeed tribe,and Bou Darraj tribe ,needless to say it's also found in other western parts of Iraq including Beni Tay'-Mafarjah (PF5160),Beni Tay'-ElAssaf (F3133),and one sector of Dulaim tribe-Bou Mhall(PF5160) and also found in El-Serhan tribe in North-western Arabian Peninsula/Jordan (PF5160),Lukhm tribe in Levant (M319),Beni Sakhr tribe in Jordan(L1064)...etc

Thank you for this information! It is quite useful and very interesting. I did not know that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a was found among the Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq. Do you have any information about the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among certain Marsh Arab tribes?

Abd.H
06-25-2016, 12:35 AM
Does anyone know exactly who ''Wael'' is?


Wael is an ancient ancestor which is believed to be the common ancestor for many Arabian tribes .
Bakr bin Wael is one of the largest branch , which is believed that Bakr the son of Wael is the common ancestor for this tribe .
Most of Bakr bin Wael Migrated to Mesopotamia and south eastern Anatolia in the 7th century , even '' Diyarbakır '' city in south eastern Turkey was named after Bakr bin Wael , in Arabic [Diyarbakır] means homes of Bakr or lands of Bakr tribe .

J Man
06-25-2016, 01:45 AM
Wael is an ancient ancestor which is believed to be the common ancestor for many Arabian tribes .
Bakr bin Wael is one of the largest branch , which is believed that Bakr the son of Wael is the common ancestor for this tribe .
Most of Bakr bin Wael Migrated to Mesopotamia and south eastern Anatolia in the 7th century , even '' Diyarbakır '' city in south eastern Turkey was named after Bakr bin Wael , in Arabic [Diyarbakır] means homes of Bakr or lands of Bakr tribe .

Your mention of Arabs in Anatolia reminded me of Sheikh Edebali who was quite influential in the shaping of the early Ottoman state. Sheikh Edebali apparently also belonged to the Banu Tamim tribe which has a good amount of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among it's members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Edebali

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 02:51 AM
Thank you for this information! It is quite useful and very interesting. I did not know that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a was found among the Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq. Do you have any information about the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among certain Marsh Arab tribes?

Those Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results are not part of genetic study.Actually they were tested separately by private Tribal DNA projects on FTDNA.

The Marsh Arabs Tribes that I was speaking about were not included in El-Zahery's famous study which solely concentrated on ((Eastern)) Marsh Arabs (Hawizah Marshes)along the Iranian border,On the other hand I meant the western Marsh Arabs,Unfortunately their wetlands were drained during and after the 1991 uprisings .

I'll try to attach a map that show the previous geographic location of those tribes.
9934

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 03:03 AM
the Banu Tamim tribe which has a good amount of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among it's members.


there's The Bou Ellyan -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (F3133>F3369),Needless to say about some Iraqi Temimi tribal samples which definately falls under the category of J2 haplogoup.Such as kit#304585,and kit#304624

J Man
06-25-2016, 03:24 AM
Those Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results are not part of genetic study.Actually they were tested separately by private Tribal DNA projects on FTDNA.

The Marsh Arabs Tribes that I was speaking about were not included in El-Zahery's famous study which solely concentrated on ((Eastern)) Marsh Arabs (Hawizah Marshes)along the Iranian border,On the other hand I meant the western Marsh Arabs,Unfortunately their wetlands were drained during and after the 1991 uprisings .

I'll try to attach a map that show the previous geographic location of those tribes.
9934

I know that you mentioned some of them above but can you please list the Marsh Arab tribes in which Y-DNA haplogroup J2a is present?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 03:25 AM
Actually there's few more Levantine "tribal" samples that falls under J2a such as Al-Atrash Family(PF5169) from Jabal al-Druze (Kit#M9540).Also
The Azar Family(L26) from Amioun/Koura (Northern Lebanon) ,which hold a Ghassanids tribal heritage(Kit#N74325) and Al-Khazen Family(Ghassanids tribal heritage)

http://www.khazen.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1580

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 03:28 AM
It's actually a vital sub-group of many Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq such as Benu 'Amer-Obadah Tribe,Beni Asad (M92) both of are Adnanite,El-Soudan-Kinda Tribe (PF4610) and it's also available in Beni Saeed tribe,and Bou Darraj tribe

their tested/predicted SNP(s) are put between parentheses...

__________________________________________________ ____________

Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) + (Kit#96297)
Obadah Tribe (Kit#193364,193340)
Beni Saeed Tribe (Kit#304599)
Bou Darraj Tribe (Kit#304635)
El-Soudan Tribe(Kit#195463)

J Man
06-25-2016, 04:08 AM
their tested/predicted SNP(s) are put between parentheses...

__________________________________________________ ____________

Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) + (Kit#96297)
Obadah Tribe (Kit#193364,193340)
Beni Saeed Tribe (Kit#304599)
Bou Darraj Tribe (Kit#304635)
El-Soudan Tribe(Kit#195463)

All of those are Marsh Arab tribes then?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 04:26 AM
Yes of course....Taking into consideration that Beni Asad is one of the most famous Adnanite tribes for more than 1400 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Asad_ibn_Khuzaymah

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 04:44 AM
Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) All three samples fall under the category of L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92

the strange thing they share the same line with an Aramaic Mandaic sample (Kit#220207) that share the same Mesopotamian geography in the Marshes.This can hint somehow that this lineage is indigenous and very old in this region .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

the 4th Sample(Kit#96297) is somehow distant under J2 Haplogroup.It falls upstream under the category of M410>PF5008>L581

J Man
06-25-2016, 04:52 AM
Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) All three samples fall under the category of L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92

the strange thing they share the same line with an Aramaic Mandaic sample (Kit#220207) that share the same Mesopotamian geography in the Marshes.This can hint somehow that this lineage is indigenous and very old in this region .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

the 4th Sample(Kit#96297) is somehow distant under J2 Haplogroup.It falls upstream under the category of M410>PF5008>L581

So Kit numbers 304616,304595 and 304575 all come from the Marsh Arab branch of the Beni Asad tribe? Is that correct?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 05:09 AM
So Kit numbers 304616,304595 and 304575 all come from the Marsh Arab branch of the Beni Asad tribe? Is that correct?

Yes,Taking into consideration that Kit#304575 belongs to El-Khayoun Sheikh's Family.They hold the Tribal leadership of Banu Asad

9935

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 06:00 AM
I just saw that you're Z2227+ive. I can see now your interest in Banu Asad 'cause both of you Z2227+ive

By the way there's a Lebanese family named (Hydar) which also means (Asad=Lion in Arabic)they also have clear Asadi Iraqian heritage
Their kit# is 342919 and they fall under the category of L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>PF7394
so basically it seems their ((Asadi)) MRCA is theoratically ((Z500))

9936

J Man
06-25-2016, 01:50 PM
Yes,Taking into consideration that Kit#304575 belongs to El-Khayoun Sheikh's Family.They hold the Tribal leadership of Banu Asad

9935

Wow now that is very interesting! So the chieftains of the Beni/Banu Asad belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a? That is confirmed?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 02:30 PM
So the chieftains of the Beni/Banu Asad belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a? That is confirmed?

Yes,It's confirmed.The genetic lineage of Chieftain of Banu Asad (Al-Khayoun Family) was tested and It's (J2a) L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92
Their tribal center was at (Al-Chabaish) marsh in Southern Iraq.

J Man
06-25-2016, 02:36 PM
Yes,It's confirmed.The genetic lineage of Chieftain of Banu Asad (Al-Khayoun Family) was tested and It's (J2a) L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92
Their tribal center was at (Al-Chabaish) marsh in Southern Iraq.

Who from the Al-Khayoun family tested do you know? The chieftain himself?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 02:55 PM
I have also one minor thing to mention .There is a Levantine/Druze cluster that I found in one of the FTDNA projects.This Syrio-Lebanese cluster seems to be
(J2a) L26>PF5116>Z2227>L558>M319

Even though this Syrio-Lebanese cluster doesn't seem to have an Asadi heritage like the Lebanese (Hydar) Family(L26>PF5116>Z2227>L558>M67>Z500>PF7394),
But one of its branches hold the name of (Tanoukh Tribe).Tanoukh is an old Arabian Tribal alliance that was composed of 3 or more minor Arabian tribes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanukhids

One of those 3 Tribes was the ancient (Lakhm) tribe.According to one story of origins of those Arabian tribal lineages .(Lakhm) was the brother of (Jutham) and both they have an Asadi/Adnanite heritage.

9939

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 02:59 PM
Who from the Al-Khayoun family tested do you know? The chieftain himself?

Frankly speaking I don't know for which family member the kit belongs, but it's clearly mentioned that the sample kit#304575 belongs to El-Khayoun family.

El-Khayoun family has lots of well known names such as Rasheed Al-Khayoun.

http://mesbar.org/bio/rasheed-al-khayoun/

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 03:54 PM
Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) All three samples fall under the category of L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92

the strange thing they share the same line with an Aramaic Mandaic sample (Kit#220207) that share the same Mesopotamian geography in the Marshes.This can hint somehow that this lineage is indigenous and very old in this region .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism



Here another Aramaic Mandaic sample L26>PF5116>M67>Z500>M92 from the same geographical location (Kit#199839)

9942

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 04:05 PM
I don't like to jump into historic conclusions,But by doing a quick brain storming it's clearly shown that there's some indigenous south-Mesopotamian genetic line in the Western Marshes that falls under the category of J2a(L26>PF5116>Z2227>L558>M67>Z500).

J Man
06-25-2016, 11:25 PM
Frankly speaking I don't know for which family member the kit belongs, but it's clearly mentioned that the sample kit#304575 belongs to El-Khayoun family.

El-Khayoun family has lots of well known names such as Rasheed Al-Khayoun.

http://mesbar.org/bio/rasheed-al-khayoun/

Okay I asked because every time a prominent Arab result ends up being J2 it seems like a whole bunch of the J1 Arabs refute it and say that the true lineage is J1.

J Man
06-25-2016, 11:29 PM
their tested/predicted SNP(s) are put between parentheses...

__________________________________________________ ____________

Beni Asad Tribe(Kit#304616,304595,304575) + (Kit#96297)
Obadah Tribe (Kit#193364,193340)
Beni Saeed Tribe (Kit#304599)
Bou Darraj Tribe (Kit#304635)
El-Soudan Tribe(Kit#195463)

How many members from the Marsh Arab branch of the Beni/Banu Asad tribe have tested overall?

Babylon_74
06-25-2016, 11:45 PM
Okay I asked because every time a prominent Arab result ends up being J2 it seems like a whole bunch of the J1 Arabs refute it and say that the true lineage is J1.

I'll try to choose my words wisely this time.Unfortunately some J1 fanatics and J1 ego centrist keyboard warriors are the disease of the Y-DNA forums in the Arab world.


How many members from the Marsh Arab branch of the Beni/Banu Asad tribe have tested overall?

As far as I know there's 5 confirmed Beni Asad tribal Samples.
4/5 are J2a ,while the 5th sample are on E Haplogroup (Kit#185440).

I dare any J1 ego centrist to prove scientifically that Beni Asad tribe are on J1 Haplogroup,Whether Historically,Geographically or Genetically!

J Man
06-26-2016, 01:41 AM
I'll try to choose my words wisely this time.Unfortunately some J1 fanatics and J1 ego centrist keyboard warriors are the disease of the Y-DNA forums in the Arab world.



As far as I know there's 5 confirmed Beni Asad tribal Samples.
4/5 are J2a ,while the 5th sample are on E Haplogroup (Kit#185440).

I dare any J1 ego centrist to prove scientifically that Beni Asad tribe are on J1 Haplogroup,Whether Historically,Geographically or Genetically!

No your words were perfectly fine my friend. I just asked because like we know so many Arabs seem to think that all true Arabs only belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J1. I have nothing against Arabs at all indeed I find Arab culture very interesting.

Viktor Reznov
06-26-2016, 02:04 AM
I'll try to choose my words wisely this time.Unfortunately some J1 fanatics and J1 ego centrist keyboard warriors are the disease of the Y-DNA forums in the Arab world.

The ISIS of the genetic community! :lol:

Babylon_74
06-26-2016, 02:16 PM
No your words were perfectly fine my friend. I just asked because like we know so many Arabs seem to think that all true Arabs only belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J1. I have nothing against Arabs at all indeed I find Arab culture very interesting.

In my humble opinion they have to calm their tits first then they should take a deep steady breath while trying to widen their narrow minded perspective and study again what were those relatively modern "ethnic" names such as Arabs,Arameans,Hebrews,Armenian,Kurds,Persians...e tc in the line of new genetic studies.


The ISIS of the genetic community! :lol:

Indeed,Any modern day genetic fanatic should embrace his/her "ethnic" genetic diversity.We should respect the idea that at one time our distant and diverse(Hunter/gatherer)ancestors had chosen later a relativity modern ethnic name for a reason or another.
Genetic Exclusivity in Tribal system is a fairy tale in my humble opinion.

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 05:05 AM
Dear J-Man,

The 4th Beni Asad sample (Kit#N96297) belongs to Al-Turayhi branch is a little bit upstream in J2a (M410>PF5008>L581 )

This stream is probably rare in Iraqi results unless the Obadah(Beni Amer) samples(kit#193364,193340) +AlSaray(Beni Taghlib) samples (kit#193339,193342)+Temim sample (kit#304627)are confirmed to be +ive for L581.

This can change the preliminary geographical conclusion about this SNP,Because we already know that both Obadah/Amer Tribe,Saray/Taghlib Tribe are actually Marsh Arabs tribes and they do form with the Temimi sample a Mesopotamian cluster.

9963

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 05:24 AM
I just discovered in the (Iraqi DNA Project) a New Beni Asad tribal sample (kit#328600) from Nasriyah
Luckily it's also a J2a sample :)

which rises the total numbers to 5/6 J2a Beni Asad Tribal samples....

9964

J Man
06-27-2016, 04:24 PM
I just discovered in the (Iraqi DNA Project) a New Beni Asad tribal sample (kit#328600) from Nasriyah
Luckily it's also a J2a sample :)

which rises the total numbers to 5/6 J2a Beni Asad Tribal samples....

9964

Does he match with any of the other Banu/Beni Asad samples?

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 05:26 PM
Does he match with any of the other Banu/Beni Asad samples?

(kit#328600) from Beni Asad/Nasriyah is only a 12 markers sample.Unfortunately it doesn't seems to be on the same cluster with other Banu Asad samples.Even on Haplgroup Predictor it didn't seem to be even a J2a

87% J2b
12% J2a

9968



Unlike The 4th Beni Asad sample (Kit#N96297) which belongs to Beni Asad/Al-Turayhi branch which was a little bit upstream in J2a (M410>PF5008>L581 ).
Again this sample may fall within some old Mesopotamian L581 line.

its final position depends on the "Probable" L581 cluster within some other Marsh Arabs tribes

9969

King
06-27-2016, 05:35 PM
I'm from Nasiriyah myself (if you're talking about the city and not some sub-tribe) :p.

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 06:30 PM
I'm from Nasiriyah myself (if you're talking about the city and not some sub-tribe) :p.

Nasiriyah social structure is tribal!...Unless you're not ethnically an Arab ...Can you elaborate more dear King?...are you Iraqi?...Do you have a Y-DNA result?

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 07:17 PM
Nasiriyah social structure is tribal!...Unless you're not ethnically an Arab ...Can you elaborate more dear King?...are you Iraqi?...Do you have a Y-DNA result?

There's no need for further elaboration Sir..... شلونك حجي :)

King
06-27-2016, 07:26 PM
There's no need for further elaboration Sir..... شلونك حجي :)

الحمد لله

Yea, both my parents are from Iraq. Paternally I'm from Nasiriyah and maternally I'm from Samawah. There's only one person from my paternal tribe who tested on ftdna, he turned up J2 (I don't think he has any further testing done; I'll have to double check sometime). And 2 from my mother's tribe have tested on ftnda, and they are both J1 YSC234+ FGC11+ FGC1695+ (no further subclades were tested).

As for me, I haven't tested.

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 07:45 PM
الحمد لله

Yea, both my parents are from Iraq. Paternally I'm from Nasiriyah and maternally I'm from Samawah. There's only one person from my paternal tribe who tested on ftdna, he turned up J2 (I don't think he has any further testing done; I'll have to double check sometime). And 2 from my mother's tribe have tested on ftnda, and they are both J1 YSC234+ FGC11+ FGC1695+ (no further subclades were tested).

As for me, I haven't tested.

At first glance I thought you were a friend of mine .... he's on R1b Haplogroup by the way :)...

Do you mind if I know your Paternal and Maternal Tribes' name?

King
06-27-2016, 07:53 PM
At first glance I thought you were a friend of mine .... he's on R1b Haplogroup by the way :)...

Do you mind if I know your Paternal and Maternal Tribes' name?

Check your inbox. I sent you a PM.

J Man
06-27-2016, 09:09 PM
(kit#328600) from Beni Asad/Nasriyah is only a 12 markers sample.Unfortunately it doesn't seems to be on the same cluster with other Banu Asad samples.Even on Haplgroup Predictor it didn't seem to be even a J2a

87% J2b
12% J2a

9968



Unlike The 4th Beni Asad sample (Kit#N96297) which belongs to Beni Asad/Al-Turayhi branch which was a little bit upstream in J2a (M410>PF5008>L581 ).
Again this sample may fall within some old Mesopotamian L581 line.

its final position depends on the "Probable" L581 cluster within some other Marsh Arabs tribes

9969

Okay so for the Banu/Beni Asad tribe out of all the men tested so far from that tribe there are 4 Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results, 1 likely haplogroup J2b result and 1 haplogroup E result.

J Man
06-27-2016, 09:14 PM
Those Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results are not part of genetic study.Actually they were tested separately by private Tribal DNA projects on FTDNA.

The Marsh Arabs Tribes that I was speaking about were not included in El-Zahery's famous study which solely concentrated on ((Eastern)) Marsh Arabs (Hawizah Marshes)along the Iranian border,On the other hand I meant the western Marsh Arabs,Unfortunately their wetlands were drained during and after the 1991 uprisings .

I'll try to attach a map that show the previous geographic location of those tribes.
9934

That is quite an interesting map. I see ''J2'' and ''J1'' marked in green on it. Y-DNA results of certain western Marsh Arab tribes?

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 09:33 PM
That is quite an interesting map. I see ''J2'' and ''J1'' marked in green on it. Y-DNA results of certain western Marsh Arab tribes?

Yes ,as an example (Fartous Tribe) that used to live North to Beni Asad Tribal area has a one confirmed J1 result (kit#415171) and it bares the resemblance of typical FGC 11 southern/(Yemeni) markers

9970

415171 Al-fartusi (Wakas studies T) Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 11 13 11 30

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 09:41 PM
Yes ,as an example (Fartous Tribe) that used to live North to Beni Asad Tribal area has a one confirmed J1 result (kit#415171) and it bares the resemblance of typical FGC 11 southern/(Yemeni) markers

9970

415171 Al-fartusi (Wakas studies T) Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 11 13 11 30

There's also one Al-Issa (Beni Saeed) tribe sample (kit#32873) that used to live North to Fartous tribal area

328573 ال عيسى - بني سعيد - الناصرية Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 10 13-18 11 16 12 14 11 32

Its markers may resemble some older J1 stream (But Definitely +L858)

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 11:08 PM
There's also one Al-Issa (Beni Saeed) tribe sample (kit#32873) that used to live North to Fartous tribal area

328573 ال عيسى - بني سعيد - الناصرية Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 10 13-18 11 16 12 14 11 32

Its markers may resemble some older J1 stream (But Definitely +L858)

On the other hand J1 is clearly dominant in ((Eastern))Marsh Arabs tribes such as:


1-Azairij tribe (kit#304612) and (kit#304564)

304612 آل ازيرج Iraq J-FGC4 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30
304564 ال ازيرج Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 11 13 11 30


2-Banu Lam tribe (kit#429062)

429062 Iraq J-M267 12 24 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 29

3-Bahadel Tribe (kit#328588)

328588 Iraq - 12 23 14 11 0-0 11 17 11 13 0 31

4-Banu Ka'ab Tribe (kit#304637)

304637 Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-17 11 17 12 13 11 29

5-Beni Mayah (Rabi'a)Tribe(3 samples)

304626 الشحمان - مياح - ربيعة Iraq J-FGC1696 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30
179344 Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 10 13 11 29
304625 Iraq J-FGC1696 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 12 11 29


6-Beni Aboudah (Rabi'a)Tribe(kit#179345)

179345 Rabe'A - Abbodah Iraq J-L222 12 23 14 10 13-19 11 17 12 13 11 30


7-Beni Attab (Rabi'a)Tribe (kit#304574)

304574 عتاب Iraq J-FGC4453 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30


__________________________________________


with the exception of El-Soudan tribe which is J2 (Kit#195463) and some few tribal samples on different Haplogroups.

J Man
06-27-2016, 11:12 PM
On the other hand J1 is clearly dominant in ((Eastern))Marsh Arabs tribes such as:


1-Azairij tribe (kit#304612) and (kit#304564)

304612 آل ازيرج Iraq J-FGC4 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30
304564 ال ازيرج Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 11 13 11 30


2-Banu Lam tribe (kit#429062)

429062 Iraq J-M267 12 24 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 29

3-Bahadel Tribe (kit#328588)

328588 Iraq - 12 23 14 11 0-0 11 17 11 13 0 31

4-Banu Ka'ab Tribe (kit#304637)

304637 Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-17 11 17 12 13 11 29

5-Beni Mayah (Rabi'a)Tribe(3 samples)

304626 الشحمان - مياح - ربيعة Iraq J-FGC1696 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30
179344 Iraq J-M267 12 23 14 11 13-18 11 17 10 13 11 29
304625 Iraq J-FGC1696 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 12 11 29


6-Beni Aboudah (Rabi'a)Tribe(kit#179345)

179345 Rabe'A - Abbodah Iraq J-L222 12 23 14 10 13-19 11 17 12 13 11 30


7-Beni Attab (Rabi'a)Tribe (kit#304574)

304574 عتاب Iraq J-FGC4453 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30


__________________________________________


with the exception of El-Soudan tribe which is J2 (Kit#195463) and some few tribal samples on different Haplogroups.

So the 4 Y-DNA haplogroup J2a Banu/Beni Asad samples/results come from men who are from tribal families that have been part of the Banu/Beni Asad tribe along their direct paternal lines for a very long time correct?

Babylon_74
06-27-2016, 11:59 PM
So the 4 Y-DNA haplogroup J2a Banu/Beni Asad samples/results come from men who are from tribal families that have been part of the Banu/Beni Asad tribe along their direct paternal lines for a very long time correct?

Yes,I believe so.I guess I already stated that in previous posts.

J Man
06-28-2016, 12:23 AM
Yes,I believe so.I guess I already stated that in previous posts.

Interesting thanks...Which tribe do you belong to?

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 12:33 AM
Interesting thanks...Which tribe do you belong to?

Beni Sa'ad tribe.....They have 2 confirmed J2 samples ...Mine is (J2a4h2d) or J-L243...My Preliminary assumption till now that I also belong to an old Mesopotamian J2 lineage

J Man
06-28-2016, 12:35 AM
Beni Sa'ad tribe.....They have 2 confirmed J2 samples ...Mine is (J2a4h2d) or J-L243...My Preliminary assumption till now that I also belong to an old Mesopotamian J2 lineage

How many men from your tribe of Beni Sa'ad have tested so far do you know?

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 12:54 AM
How many men from your tribe of Beni Sa'ad have tested so far do you know?

Maybe about 4 to 5 "random"samples....Most of them came on different Haplogroups and frankly speaking I'm not really sure about their accuracy of resembling a true Beni Saad Lineage .

Like Beni Asad my Tribe had theoretically left the Arabian Peninsula and migrated to the north to Euphrates river banks in southern Iraq 1000 years ago.The only difference is that my own Tribe had taken a big military blow by the Ottomans 300 to 400 years ago .According to our oral tribal history we lost a big tribal battle in front of them which led to the destruction of our main tribal structure and the dispersal of our tribal branches into different geographical locations in Iraq.We still name it the Battle of "Hamret Saad" حمرة سعد or "The Bloody battle of Benu "Saad"

J Man
06-28-2016, 01:32 AM
Maybe about 4 to 5 "random"samples....Most of them came on different Haplogroups and frankly speaking I'm not really sure about their accuracy of resembling a true Beni Saad Lineage .

Like Beni Asad my Tribe had theoretically left the Arabian Peninsula and migrated to the north to Euphrates river banks in southern Iraq 1000 years ago.The only difference is that my own Tribe had taken a big military blow by the Ottomans 300 to 400 years ago .According to our oral tribal history we lost a big tribal battle in front of them which led to the destruction of our main tribal structure and the dispersal of our tribal branches into different geographical locations in Iraq.We still name it the Battle of "Hamret Saad" حمرة سعد or "The Bloody battle of Benu "Saad"

Interesting stuff.

J Man
06-28-2016, 02:05 AM
Maybe about 4 to 5 "random"samples....Most of them came on different Haplogroups and frankly speaking I'm not really sure about their accuracy of resembling a true Beni Saad Lineage .

Like Beni Asad my Tribe had theoretically left the Arabian Peninsula and migrated to the north to Euphrates river banks in southern Iraq 1000 years ago.The only difference is that my own Tribe had taken a big military blow by the Ottomans 300 to 400 years ago .According to our oral tribal history we lost a big tribal battle in front of them which led to the destruction of our main tribal structure and the dispersal of our tribal branches into different geographical locations in Iraq.We still name it the Battle of "Hamret Saad" حمرة سعد or "The Bloody battle of Benu "Saad"

How long has your own direct paternal line been part of the Beni Sa'a'd tribe do you know?

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 02:28 AM
How long has your own direct paternal line been part of the Beni Sa'a'd tribe do you know?

At least 10 generations and the rest is fairly speculative.It's not a problem with my own Tribe.It's Bedouin thing.They usually depend on oral/verbal traditions.They rarely document things or keep written records like the "Sayids" and "Sherifs" have -A.K.A- the People that share a direct paternal lineage with Imam Ali Ibn Abi Taleb (The cousin of Muhammed the Prophet),Needless to say that Ottoman period (almost 500 years)resembled the dark ages in Bedouins history.

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 02:47 AM
At least 10 generations and the rest is fairly speculative.It's not a problem with my own Tribe.It's Bedouin thing.They usually depend on oral/verbal traditions.They rarely document things or keep written records like the "Sayids" and "Sherifs" have -A.K.A- the People that share a direct paternal lineage with Imam Ali Ibn Abi Taleb (The cousin of Muhammed the Prophet),Needless to say that Ottoman period (almost 500 years)resembled the dark ages in Bedouins history.

Another critical issue is that zero Genealogy books were written during Ottoman period and before that was the big blow of the Mongol invasion of Baghdad and the destruction and the end of the Abbasid era.We are speaking here about a time line almost 800 years. Just right before those 800 years the most of big Bedouin Migrations happened (Like My own tribe).On the other hand Beni Asad migration happened much earlier than ours (1200 years+ago)....Same thing happened to Beni Amer,Beni Temim....The medieval Muslim historians and Arabic Genealogists had documented those major bedouin migrations from Arabian Peninsula towards Iraq,The Levant and North Africa...etc

For that reason "Modern" bedouin tribes from Arabian Peninsula and Gulf countries lack the proper historicity that links them with the major bedouin tribes they claim they come from!

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 03:25 AM
For that reason "Modern" bedouin tribes from Arabian Peninsula and Gulf countries lack the proper historicity that links them with the major bedouin tribes they claim they come from!

To through more lights on this controversial point.I can give you an example from Ibn Said Al-Andalusi's book (Nashwat Al-Tarab Fi Tarikh Jahliyat Al-Arab)-(685 Hijri/ 1286 A.D)when he was mentioning Temim tribe in Arabian Peninsula.He said they were totally dispersed there,They do not exist as a tribe anymore in Nejd....They already left to Basra/Iraq...etc

Almost 100 years before him Al-Hazimi(584 Hijri/1190 A.D) named the 6 main branch of Temim tribe(Anbar-Riyah-Nahshal-Saad-Darem-Mushaji') and put them totally in Iraq/Basra region not in Arabia.

Similarly Ibn Khaldoun -the Famous Historian and sociologist from the 14th century-when he mentioned Temim Tribe in Arabia he said : ((They were dispersed later in the cities and they do not have any traces in Arabian Peninsula)...So any claimed connections between a modern bedouin tribe in Arabian Peninsula and the old Bedouin Temim tribe is purely imaginitive. Thus The old Temim tribe that we knew from the old genealogical books has to be found in Iraq...etc

J Man
06-28-2016, 03:38 AM
To through more lights on this controversial point.I can give you an example from Ibn Said Al-Andalusi's book (Nashwat Al-Tarab Fi Tarikh Jahliyat Al-Arab)-(685 Hijri/ 1286 A.D)when he was mentioning Temim tribe in Arabian Peninsula.He said they were totally dispersed there,They do not exist as a tribe anymore in Nejd....They already left to Basra/Iraq...etc

Almost 100 years before him Al-Hazimi(584 Hijri/1190 A.D) named the 6 main branch of Temim tribe(Anbar-Riyah-Nahshal-Saad-Darem-Mushaji') and put them totally in Iraq/Basra region not in Arabia.

Similarly Ibn Khaldoun -the Famous Historian and sociologist from the 14th century-when he mentioned Temim Tribe in Arabia he said : ((They were dispersed later in the cities and they do not have any traces in Arabian Peninsula)...So any claimed connections between a modern bedouin tribe in Arabian Peninsula and the old Bedouin Temim tribe is purely imaginitive. Thus The old Temim tribe that we knew from the old genealogical books has to be found in Iraq...etc

I found this page about some Arab Y-DNA results that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2. I used Google Translate and I am sorry for the rough translation.

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.arabiandna.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-4240.html&prev=search

A few lines here stood out to me.

''Ibn Abbad
03-22-2014, 04:27 PM
J2 of the elders of the tribe Almzaraa Emirates

http://dnaarab.com/showthread.php?t=4054''


''j2 clans of the Goran Jammaz Hashemite Jordan Hosseinieh

http://www.dnaarab.com/showthread.php?t=5051''

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 04:08 AM
I found this page about some Arab Y-DNA results that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2. I used Google Translate and I am sorry for the rough translation.

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.arabiandna.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-4240.html&prev=search

A few lines here stood out to me.

''Ibn Abbad
03-22-2014, 04:27 PM
J2 of the elders of the tribe Almzaraa Emirates

http://dnaarab.com/showthread.php?t=4054''


''j2 clans of the Goran Jammaz Hashemite Jordan Hosseinieh

http://www.dnaarab.com/showthread.php?t=5051''

Yes I'm acquainted with this Arab DNA Forum.The writer of the thread is J2a Balushi man.He was naming some famous J2a samples such as:

The chieftain/Sheikh of (El-Mazari'i Tribe) in UAE (Kit#M7003).

and a second sample from El-Gera'an Tribe from Northern Jordan and he's linking it to (Howeitat Tribe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howeitat

This tribe actually have a "Weak" genealogical lineage that links them with the (Sherifs).Actually this sample does not even reflect the (Howeitat tribe) main genetic line
Most of the Howeitat are J1(YSC0000076)

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 04:17 AM
But there's an interesting thing about (El-Gera'an Tribe)sample from Northern Jordan(Irbid/Efron) that I was already tracking long time ago.They seemed to be tested by smgf and it's a L243+ like me :)

J Man
06-28-2016, 04:34 AM
Yes I'm acquainted with this Arab DNA Forum.The writer of the thread is J2a Balushi man.He was naming some famous J2a samples such as:

The chieftain/Sheikh of (El-Mazari'i Tribe) in UAE (Kit#M7003).

and a second sample from El-Gera'an Tribe from Northern Jordan and he's linking it to (Howeitat Tribe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howeitat

This tribe actually have a "Weak" genealogical lineage that links them with the (Sherifs).Actually this sample does not even reflect the (Howeitat tribe) main genetic line
Most of the Howeitat are J1(YSC0000076)

So the Chieftain/Sheikh of the El-Mazari'i tribe from the UAE himself actually tested and belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a?

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 04:47 AM
So the Chieftain/Sheikh of the El-Mazari'i tribe from the UAE himself actually tested and belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a?

Yes someone tested him,But I think his sample is upstream L26.

But it's said that the majority of his (Mazari'i tribe/Sing. Mazroui) are on T haplogroup

J Man
06-28-2016, 05:05 AM
Yes someone tested him,But I think his sample is upstream L26.

But it's said that the majority of his (Mazari'i tribe/Sing. Mazroui) are on T haplogroup

It would be good to see his haplotype.

Since he is the Chieftain/Sheikh it could be that his paternal line lineage is different from many of his tribesmen.

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 05:12 AM
It would be good to see his haplotype.

Since he is the Chieftain/Sheikh it could be that his paternal line lineage is different from many of his tribesmen.

He's not the only J2 Chieftain/Sheikh that his paternal line lineage is different from many of his tribesmen.I remember also The Sheikh of Khawlan Yemeni tribe.
(Khawlan) is one of the oldest Arabian tribe in Southern Arabia...Its origins is so old in history that its main line is so J1- Upstream

There should be some historical explanation behind this riddle :(

J Man
06-28-2016, 05:23 AM
He's not the only J2 Chieftain/Sheikh that his paternal line lineage is different from many of his tribesmen.I remember also The Sheikh of Khawlan Yemeni tribe.
(Khawlan) is one of the oldest Arabian tribe in Southern Arabia...Its origins is so old in history that its main line is so J1- Upstream

There should be some historical explanation behind this riddle :(

Do you know of any other Arab tribes who have Chieftains/Sheikhs that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a?

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 05:40 AM
Do you know of any other Arab tribes who have Chieftains/Sheikhs that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a?

Concerning The Khawlan Sheikh's sample just keep this nugget of information on hold until I get Khawlani confirmation for that.

I'm sure there's a lot "High Profile" J2a samples.Unfortunately this Genetic lineage was fought ferociously the whole past 6 years on Tribal DNA forums.It had been called names such as "Persian","Ajami"="Non-Arabic","Nestorian","Greek","Phoenician"...etc in order to degrade it.Unfortunately this psychological warfare was encouraged by some J1 fanatics and made lots of J2a tribal samples to "Vanish" because of this well organised genetic intimidation.


I already named for you some high profile (Tay' Tribe) sample (kit#415178)....Al-Assaf (Tay) are considered to be the most high Profile (Tay) leadership in Iraq and Syria...Also Al-Atrash Sample(kit#9540) from Syria- Jebel Druze is another High-Profile tribal sample.

J Man
06-28-2016, 05:40 PM
J-M410 and especially the L26 is widely found in eastern Arab world including modern day Arabian peninsula,Iraq,Syria,Jordan, Israel(Palestine),and of course Lebanon.
Not only found in some tribal sectors of Eniza (Beni Wael) in Arabian Peninsula.It's actually a vital sub-group of many Mesopotamian Marsh Arabs tribes in Southern Iraq such as Benu 'Amer-Obadah Tribe,Beni Asad (M92) both of are Adnanite,El-Soudan-Kinda Tribe (PF4610) and it's also available in Beni Saeed tribe,and Bou Darraj tribe ,needless to say it's also found in other western parts of Iraq including Beni Tay'-Mafarjah (PF5160),Beni Tay'-ElAssaf (F3133),and one sector of Dulaim tribe-Bou Mhall(PF5160) and also found in El-Serhan tribe in North-western Arabian Peninsula/Jordan (PF5160),Lukhm tribe in Levant (M319),Beni Sakhr tribe in Jordan(L1064)...etc

You mention the ''Beni Wael'' above here. I take it you obviously mean this group on this DNA project correct?

1. بني وائل - التواجر - التويجري - نجد - الرياض - المجمعة - القصيم J2a1a1a2-L26>PF5160/Z2221>PF5197>PF5172>PF5169 , T-Clan PH4970+ FGC16088+ FGC35005+ FGC35007+

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Wayeel/default.aspx?section=yresults

ddugas
06-28-2016, 05:54 PM
Babylon_74:

We've talked before about SNP testing as we are both members of J-L24 DNA project. I've recently discovered a new match from Iraq and he represents the closest SNP match I have now as well as my closest STR match. Kit is 359321. He has not mentioned any tribal affiliation, just that he has family all over Iraq-Baghdad, Mosul, Kufa was what he told me. He lives in England presently. Its been a bit of a challenge to learn more about his ancestry but i would like to learn more.

In any event, we have both done Big Y and share 8 unique SNPs downstream of J-F3133, FGC9962, J-Y14700 that no one else shares.

The Tay tribe kit you mention above is also somehwere down the J-F3133 branch and is currently undergoing a Big Y test, compliments of the J-L24 DNA Project so you will find out much more about its terminal position. EDIT: Just received word the Tay kit 415178 is FGC9927 which is equivalent to FGC9876 and downstream of FGC9961

J-Man, we've discussed tribes before and as you know, there are many J2a's that are within many of the arab tribes but also sometimes the dominant cluster of a tribe (Soudan and Tamimi are both predominant J-L25/F3133/FGC9961)

Another branch of this clade is also part of the dataset from Qatar that has been analyzed by Yfull and is typed J-FGC9876 (also downstream of FGC9961)

J Man
06-28-2016, 06:14 PM
Babylon_74:

We've talked before about SNP testing as we are both members of J-L24 DNA project. I've recently discovered a new match from Iraq and he represents the closest SNP match I have now as well as my closest STR match. Kit is 359321. He has not mentioned any tribal affiliation, just that he has family all over Iraq-Baghdad, Mosul, Kufa was what he told me. He lives in England presently. Its been a bit of a challenge to learn more about his ancestry but i would like to learn more.

In any event, we have both done Big Y and share 8 unique SNPs downstream of J-F3133, FGC9962, J-Y14700 that no one else shares.

The Tay tribe kit you mention above is also somehwere down the J-F3133 branch and is currently undergoing a Big Y test, compliments of the J-L24 DNA Project so you will find out much more about its terminal position. EDIT: Just received word the Tay kit 415178 is FGC9927 which is equivalent to FGC9876 and downstream of FGC9961

J-Man, we've discussed tribes before and as you know, there are many J2a's that are within many of the arab tribes but also sometimes the dominant cluster of a tribe (Soudan and Tamimi are both predominant J-L25/F3133/FGC9961)

Another branch of this clade is also part of the dataset from Qatar that has been analyzed by Yfull and is typed J-FGC9876 (also downstream of FGC9961)

ddugas can you please send me a link about the Soudan tribe's Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results?

ddugas
06-28-2016, 06:40 PM
ddugas can you please send me a link about the Soudan tribe's Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results?

Their project is private. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Al-SuwaidiTribe/

They are in the J_L24 tree though. They are L363+, a subclade of FGC9962, FGC9927/9876, FGC9961, Z7700/F3133, L25. You can view the tree here: http://kemal.comuv.com/l24/J2-L24(2016-06-28).pdf


over 100 have tested to my knowledge.

And we are now seeing suwaidi, tamimi, tayy and others, many from the arabian gulf region are all falling under FGC9961. The data from the J-L24 project and the J2 middle east project carries many of these haplotypes.

Babylon_74
06-28-2016, 09:40 PM
You mention the ''Beni Wael'' above here. I take it you obviously mean this group on this DNA project correct?

1. بني وائل - التواجر - التويجري - نجد - الرياض - المجمعة - القصيم J2a1a1a2-L26>PF5160/Z2221>PF5197>PF5172>PF5169 , T-Clan PH4970+ FGC16088+ FGC35005+ FGC35007+

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Wayeel/default.aspx?section=yresults

I believe so. Beni Wael is a generic name for Eniza tribe members


Babylon_74:

We've talked before about SNP testing as we are both members of J-L24 DNA project. I've recently discovered a new match from Iraq and he represents the closest SNP match I have now as well as my closest STR match. Kit is 359321. He has not mentioned any tribal affiliation, just that he has family all over Iraq-Baghdad, Mosul, Kufa was what he told me. He lives in England presently. Its been a bit of a challenge to learn more about his ancestry but i would like to learn more.

In any event, we have both done Big Y and share 8 unique SNPs downstream of J-F3133, FGC9962, J-Y14700 that no one else shares.



Hi ddugas,

Good to hear from you again.Yes I remember well our conversations couple of years ago.
It's great news that you have found an Iraqi match. I've just check (kit#359321) markers and I've found that he's (YCAII=19-22) which may hint that his sample could be slightly older than yours or maybe he's nearer than you to the Basal split of your most recent common SNP (MRCA)


The Tay tribe kit you mention above is also somehwere down the J-F3133 branch and is currently undergoing a Big Y test, compliments of the J-L24 DNA Project so you will find out much more about its terminal position. EDIT: Just received word the Tay kit 415178 is FGC9927 which is equivalent to FGC9876 and downstream of FGC9961



Great updated news concerning the terminal position of Al-Assaf (Tay) sample,Indeed it's an important tribal sample. I've attached a quote from a Levantine tribes book(in Arabic Language) describing the importance of this tribal branch as the most original and most prestigious within Tay Tribe

9974



ddugas can you please send me a link about the Soudan tribe's Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results?

*(Al-Suwaidi/Soudan) Tribe from UAE is different from (Soudan) Tribe from Southern Iraq

The first UAE tribe-as already mentioned by David-is in the line of J-L25/F3133 and they are part of Beni-Yas tribal confederation.
the second tribe is the Iraqi Marsh Arab one and they are in upstream line of PF4610

J Man
06-29-2016, 01:36 AM
I believe so. Beni Wael is a generic name for Eniza tribe members



Hi ddugas,

Good to hear from you again.Yes I remember well our conversations couple of years ago.
It's great news that you have found an Iraqi match. I've just check (kit#359321) markers and I've found that he's (YCAII=19-22) which may hint that his sample could be slightly older than yours or maybe he's nearer than you to the Basal split of your most recent common SNP (MRCA)



Great updated news concerning the terminal position of Al-Assaf (Tay) sample,Indeed it's an important tribal sample. I've attached a quote from a Levantine tribes book(in Arabic Language) describing the importance of this tribal branch as the most original and most prestigious within Tay Tribe

9974




*(Al-Suwaidi/Soudan) Tribe from UAE is different from (Soudan) Tribe from Southern Iraq

The first UAE tribe-as already mentioned by David-is in the line of J-L25/F3133 and they are part of Beni-Yas tribal confederation.
the second tribe is the Iraqi Marsh Arab one and they are in upstream line of PF4610

So the majority of the UAE Al-Suwaidi/Soudan tribesmen that have tested so far belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J-L25/F3133? I ask this because I can't see the project results because it is private.

Babylon_74
06-29-2016, 10:00 AM
So the majority of the UAE Al-Suwaidi/Soudan tribesmen that have tested so far belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J-L25/F3133? I ask this because I can't see the project results because it is private.

Since it's a Private Tribal DNA Project I don't either have access to it ...which is a frustrating thing genetically speaking...But I think the use of the word "Majority" is pretty accurate in this case...I heard once from a trusted source that the majority of Al-Suwaidi/Soudan tribesmen in the UAE are J-L25/F3133 with a few probable J-L222 samples

I have this modal markers for a single J2 Al-Suwaidi member which is not officially confirmed yet,But it's still better than nothing for comparative purposes

9992

ddugas
06-29-2016, 01:35 PM
Hi Jman:

The haplotype of the tribe is actually not the one referenced above. That one I believe is another isolated J2 with the same surname. The L363 haplotype dominant in that tribe is Y search BWWAZ

21 of my total 45 Big Y matches carry the surname Suwaidi. Both them and I are under FGC9962 as you can see from the L24 tree link I referenced above. In addition to them and myself, under FGC9962, there is a Bani Khalid from Eastern Saudi Arabia, a Kuwaiti surnamed AlRashed, Iraqi surnamed Rasheed, another Kuwaiti and a Dutch result all under FGC9962.

Their project is private, but those who meet the match threshold for Big Y can see all the results and their terminal SNPs. Among the list of 21 Suwaidi's in my Big Y includes one titled Sultan.

Here is an article on the research they are doing http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/genealogy-and-the-uae-stories-that-reveal-who-we-are#full

I do not think deal their objectives deal with deep ancestry. I believe they are using DNA mostly to try to find family markers and understand the branches within their tribe, so for them, our discussion of tribes and haplogroups is less important and relevant to what they are trying to accomplish. Even as a match I have emailed them and received no reply or communication. They only deal with a haplogroup project admin who has been generous with his time in providing analysis of their Big Y and FGC results.

J Man
06-29-2016, 01:38 PM
Since it's a Private Tribal DNA Project I don't either have access to it ...which is a frustrating thing genetically speaking...But I think the use of the word "Majority" is pretty accurate in this case...I heard once from a trusted source that the majority of Al-Suwaidi/Soudan tribesmen in the UAE are J-L25/F3133 with a few probable J-L222 samples

I have this modal markers for a single J2 Al-Suwaidi member which is not officially confirmed yet,But it's still better than nothing for comparative purposes

9992

Have you asked about the confirmation for the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Khawlani Chieftain/Sheikh as well?

J Man
06-29-2016, 01:41 PM
Hi Jman:

The haplotype of the tribe is actually not the one referenced above. That one I believe is another isolated J2 with the same surname. The L363 haplotype dominant in that tribe is Y search BWWAZ

21 of my total 45 Big Y matches carry the surname Suwaidi. Both them and I are under FGC9962 as you can see from the L24 tree link I referenced above. In addition to them and myself, under FGC9962, there is a Bani Khalid from Eastern Saudi Arabia, a Kuwaiti surnamed AlRashed, Iraqi surnamed Rasheed, another Kuwaiti and a Dutch result all under FGC9962.

Their project is private, but those who meet the match threshold for Big Y can see all the results and their terminal SNPs. Among the list of 21 Suwaidi's in my Big Y includes one titled Sultan.

Here is an article on the research they are doing http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/genealogy-and-the-uae-stories-that-reveal-who-we-are#full

I do not think deal their objectives deal with deep ancestry. I believe they are using DNA mostly to try to find family markers and understand the branches within their tribe, so for them, our discussion of tribes and haplogroups is less important and relevant to what they are trying to accomplish. Even as a match I have emailed them and received no reply or communication. They only deal with a haplogroup project admin who has been generous with his time in providing analysis of their Big Y and FGC results.

Thank you for the info ddugas. Do you know how many Al-Suwaidi men have had their Y-DNA tested in their project?

ddugas
06-29-2016, 02:08 PM
According to Ybrowse 47 are derived for L363.

Their ancestry is traced back to a Yemeni sheikh named Suwad Al-Kindi.

J Man
06-29-2016, 05:52 PM
According to Ybrowse 47 are derived for L363.

Their ancestry is traced back to a Yemeni sheikh named Suwad Al-Kindi.

And they are all confirmed members of the Al-Suwaidi tribe correct?

ddugas
06-29-2016, 06:42 PM
21 L363+ are in my big Y list and all have the same surname. I know of only 1 other person who may or may not be part of that tribe that is derived and that is Al-Shaibani from Oman who is L363+. His STRs are very close to the Suwaidi.

J Man
06-29-2016, 09:29 PM
there's The Bou Ellyan -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (F3133>F3369),Needless to say about some Iraqi Temimi tribal samples which definately falls under the category of J2 haplogoup.Such as kit#304585,and kit#304624

This branch looks quite interesting as well.

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 03:34 AM
Their ancestry is traced back to a Yemeni sheikh named Suwad Al-Kindi.

(Suwad-Souda-Soudan) is a debatable/controversial name David.It's often been connected upon similarities in pronunciation to a famous historical Kendi knight (From early Islamic Period) whose name is (El-Moqdad IBen Al-Aswad Al-Kendi) المقداد بن الأسود الكندي.I even read about a Tribal branch from Kitkan Kurdish tribe that claim to be a recent migration from Southern Iraq to northern Syria .This particular Tribal branch named themselves (Souda)and they claim also Arab/Kendi ancestry and a vague connection to a person named (El-Mukhtar El-Aswad) which means Mukhtar the Black.

Actually you can even trace the name (Souda) tribe to ancient Pre-Islamic inscriptions in Arabian peninsula.From a purely objective analytical point of view I can see the Soudan/Suwaidi of eastern coasts of Arabian peninsula to be an old genetic line in this geographical location much older than the composition of Beni Yas tribal confederation .Even J.J. Lorimer in (Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf) had hinted that this particular eastern tribe belongs to a slightly northern geographical Qatari node.Their old tribal geography(a small gulf 5 miles south to Al-Wakrah) was deserted according to J.J Lorimer because of the poor quality of its drinking water.

10015

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 03:51 AM
Hi Jman:

The haplotype of the tribe is actually not the one referenced above. That one I believe is another isolated J2 with the same surname. The L363 haplotype dominant in that tribe is Y search BWWAZ

21 of my total 45 Big Y matches carry the surname Suwaidi. Both them and I are under FGC9962 as you can see from the L24 tree link I referenced above. In addition to them and myself, under FGC9962, there is a Bani Khalid from Eastern Saudi Arabia, a Kuwaiti surnamed AlRashed, Iraqi surnamed Rasheed, another Kuwaiti and a Dutch result all under FGC9962.

Their project is private, but those who meet the match threshold for Big Y can see all the results and their terminal SNPs. Among the list of 21 Suwaidi's in my Big Y includes one titled Sultan.

Here is an article on the research they are doing http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/genealogy-and-the-uae-stories-that-reveal-who-we-are#full

I do not think deal their objectives deal with deep ancestry. I believe they are using DNA mostly to try to find family markers and understand the branches within their tribe, so for them, our discussion of tribes and haplogroups is less important and relevant to what they are trying to accomplish. Even as a match I have emailed them and received no reply or communication. They only deal with a haplogroup project admin who has been generous with his time in providing analysis of their Big Y and FGC results.

Good to know that David.I can see a geographical line that is extending from ancient "Mesopotamia" to eastern coast of Arabian Peninsula.Frankly speaking I have a controversial historical assumption,But I don't want to jump to an early conclusion.


Have you asked about the confirmation for the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Khawlani Chieftain/Sheikh as well?

No man.Not yet


This branch looks quite interesting as well.

Bou Ellyan -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (F3133>F3369) and Suwaidi/Soudan- Eastern Arabian coasts branch-which forms another huge cluster under(F3133> L363 )....those 2 F3133 tribal branches along with F3133 Al-Assaf (Tay) is definitely interesting historically speaking

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 04:06 AM
El-Soudan (Marsh Arab) sample has been clustered with with a European/Jewish Ashkenazi cluster along this line: PF4610>Z6049

10016

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 07:01 AM
Bou Ellyan -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (F3133>F3369) and Suwaidi/Soudan- Eastern Arabian coasts branch-which forms another huge cluster under(F3133> L363 )....those 2 F3133 tribal branches along with F3133 Al-Assaf (Tay) is definitely interesting historically speaking

I have to mention also that there was another famous Temimi Branch (Hamad/Bou Einayn) is highly probable under (F3133>F3369) .Unfortunately the Hamad/Bou Einayn-Temimi man tested didn't give the number for his kit
At that time.
he only gave his first 12 markers modal which matched 12/12 Bou Ellyan modal

10019

The Temimi Tribal Branch (Bou Einayn) was one of the biggest and highly influential Qatari tribe in Persian gulf late history.
According to Lorimer in (Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf) they were composed of 2000 member around Al-Wakrah area.

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 07:12 AM
The Temimi Tribal Branch (Bou Einayn) was one of the biggest and highly influential Qatari tribe in Persian gulf late history.
According to Lorimer in (Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf) they were composed of 2000 member around Al-Wakrah area.

I have to remind you again that according to Lorimer ,400 tribal members of Al-Swaidi/Soudan Tribal branch were residing at that time in a small gulf 5 miles south of Al-Wakrah

10020
*Map by Gustav Freytag (1852–1938), an Austrian-born mapmaker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Bidda

10021

ddugas
06-30-2016, 01:36 PM
Below is a snapshot of what we are starting to see under J-FGC9961. Note these are just big Y results, there are actually more cases (view J-L24 DNA project) but generally speaking we are seeing this subclade in Iraq, Iran and the Arabian Peninsula seemingly peaking in the Gulf though this may be a result of sample bias as many Gulf Arabs have done DNA testing. So I think we are seeing at least a bronze age common origin between Tayy, Tamimi, Soudan and many others. Another interesting observation is the few Europeans in this subclade do not cluster with each other but in each case cluster with a different Arab result suggesting a relatively more recent migration to Europe. I also think the subclade J-L243 that Babylon_74 is in probably spread in a similar fashion from a similar origin. At this point I chalk up this subclade to originating in Sumer, Elam or Jiroft cultures but who knows; DNA always seems to yield the unexpected...
10027

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 09:41 PM
Below is a snapshot of what we are starting to see under J-FGC9961. Note these are just big Y results, there are actually more cases (view J-L24 DNA project) but generally speaking we are seeing this subclade in Iraq, Iran and the Arabian Peninsula seemingly peaking in the Gulf though this may be a result of sample bias as many Gulf Arabs have done DNA testing. So I think we are seeing at least a bronze age common origin between Tayy, Tamimi, Soudan and many others.


Well I'm note sure about the ancient migration(s) of J2a lines to Nejd and to the Arabian gulf coasts such as the sample of Al-Mazroui Sheikh and many other Arab samples along PF5116 line, they could be part of the bronze age migrations or EBA.....But frankly speaking my preliminary assumption for L-25 and especially the (PF4888 and F3133) lines in the same area would go for more recent "historical" migration(s).

10040

Babylon_74
06-30-2016, 09:55 PM
Well I'm note sure about the ancient migration(s) of J2a lines to Nejd and to the Arabian gulf coasts such as the sample of Al-Mazroui Sheikh and many other Arab samples along PF5116 line, they could be part of the bronze age migrations or EBA.....But frankly speaking my preliminary assumption for L-25 and especially the (PF4888 and F3133) lines in the same area would go for more recent "historical" migration(s).

10040

I have this migration route of (Nestorian church missionaries)as an assumption in my mind

10041
*the brown arrows=Nestorian church missionaries routes
the green line=The silk road

I can give more circumstantial evidence if you're interested.

J Man
06-30-2016, 10:35 PM
Well I'm note sure about the ancient migration(s) of J2a lines to Nejd and to the Arabian gulf coasts such as the sample of Al-Mazroui Sheikh and many other Arab samples along PF5116 line, they could be part of the bronze age migrations or EBA.....But frankly speaking my preliminary assumption for L-25 and especially the (PF4888 and F3133) lines in the same area would go for more recent "historical" migration(s).

10040

Have you seen the haplotype or SNP results of the Al-Mazroui Sheikh?

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 12:10 AM
Have you seen the haplotype or SNP results of the Al-Mazroui Sheikh?

Yes,It's mentioned under the (kit#M7003) AL MAZROOEI - United Arab Emirates (J-Z6057)


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/uae?iframe=yresults

"Theoretically" speaking this sample is supposed to belong to one of the direct relatives of Sheikh Hamad Al-Mazroui' (Ras al-Khaimah)

10046

Hanna
07-01-2016, 12:36 AM
Beni Sa'ad tribe.....They have 2 confirmed J2 samples ...Mine is (J2a4h2d) or J-L243...My Preliminary assumption till now that I also belong to an old Mesopotamian J2 lineage

My grandfather is J2a4h2f (J2-L192.2). J2-L192.2 has a group on FTDNA. Mostly Anatolian based people are from this haplogroup, there are also some Arabs and even Indians!

www.familytreedna.com/public/j2-l1922?iframe=ycolorized

Does anybody have any opinions on this haplogroup?

J Man
07-01-2016, 12:52 AM
Yes,It's mentioned under the (kit#M7003) AL MAZROOEI - United Arab Emirates (J-Z6057)


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/uae?iframe=yresults

"Theoretically" speaking this sample is supposed to belong to one of the direct relatives of Sheikh Hamad Al-Mazroui' (Ras al-Khaimah)

10046

Okay thanks. Now I am sorry if I sound like I am repeating myself but this man who's kit number is M7003 and who's name is AL MAZROOEI is the current Chieftain/Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE correct?

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 01:53 AM
Okay thanks. Now I am sorry if I sound like I am repeating myself but this man who's kit number is M7003 and who's name is AL MAZROOEI is the current Chieftain/Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE correct?

Yes,I thought I already clarified this point

According to the people tested the man.His sample belongs to the Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE- (Ras al-Khaimah)

10047

http://www.arab-dna.com/arab/index.php/topic/683-%D8%B9%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%B1/

J Man
07-01-2016, 03:02 AM
Yes,I thought I already clarified this point

According to the people tested the man.His sample belongs to the Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE- (Ras al-Khaimah)

10047

http://www.arab-dna.com/arab/index.php/topic/683-%D8%B9%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%B1/

Yes you did but I just wanted to confirm it. This is quite interesting. So the Chieftain/Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a while the majority of his tribesmen belong to Y-DNA haplogroup T.

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 03:14 AM
My grandfather is J2a4h2f (J2-L192.2). J2-L192.2 has a group on FTDNA. Mostly Anatolian based people are from this haplogroup, there are also some Arabs and even Indians!

www.familytreedna.com/public/j2-l1922?iframe=ycolorized

Does anybody have any opinions on this haplogroup?

Concerning all the L-25 lines that were found among current Anatolians and Arabs such as Iraqis,Levantine,Arabian gulf countries,Christian Indian clusters ...etc
I have only a historic "Assumption" based on circumstantial evidence.

10040

I believe their geographical distribution follow the(Nestorian church missionaries) routes

10041
*the brown arrows=Nestorian church missionaries routes
the green line=The silk road

J Man
07-01-2016, 03:17 AM
My grandfather is J2a4h2f (J2-L192.2). J2-L192.2 has a group on FTDNA. Mostly Anatolian based people are from this haplogroup, there are also some Arabs and even Indians!

www.familytreedna.com/public/j2-l1922?iframe=ycolorized

Does anybody have any opinions on this haplogroup?

I that project which kit number is your grandfather's

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 03:17 AM
Yes you did but I just wanted to confirm it. This is quite interesting. So the Chieftain/Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a while the majority of his tribesmen belong to Y-DNA haplogroup T.

Yes,Now it would be really interesting if we investigate now the presence of this genetic line in Ras al-Khaimah-UAE

J Man
07-01-2016, 03:20 AM
Yes,Now it would be really interesting if we investigate now the presence of this genetic lines in Ras al-Khaimah-UAE

It would also be interesting to see the direct paternal line pedigree or family tree of the Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE since his direct paternal line ancestors also should be J2a.

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 03:55 AM
It would also be interesting to see the direct paternal line pedigree or family tree of the Sheikh of the Al-Mazroui tribe of the UAE since his direct paternal line ancestors also should be J2a.

I'll leave that for a Mazroui' tribe member.Their most famous paternal line pedigree link them with Temim Tribe.


*Geographical locations of J2 Lines in UAE:

10048

__________________________________________________ _____________

Another 2 important J2 samples (12 markers modal) which belongs to the famous Arabian tribe(Abd Qais) that used to live on the eastern coasts of Arabian peninsula

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abdul_Qays

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyunid_dynasty

1-Sanajrah(Abd Qais) from Iraq
2- Jahahfa/Oyounieen(Abd Qais) from Arabia

10049

vettor
07-01-2016, 07:05 AM
with Kuwaitis showing 100% of Persian ancestry

http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-015-1233-x

There is a very high chance that most people of the southern coast of the Persian gulf, will also be a high percentage of ancestral Persian

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 08:02 AM
with Kuwaitis showing 100% of Persian ancestry



Sir,I'm afraid that there's lots of generalization in this sentence.

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 08:18 AM
I believe their geographical distribution follow the(Nestorian church missionaries) routes

10041
*the brown arrows=Nestorian church missionaries routes
the green line=The silk road

Just to throw more light on my historical "assumption"

1-Some Pre-Islamic Nestorian crosses/churches from (Al-Hira) area in Iraq

10053 10054 1005510056 10057

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hirah

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 08:26 AM
Just to throw more light on my historical "assumption"

1-Some Pre-Islamic Nestorian crosses/churches from (Al-Hira) area in Iraq

1005310054100551005610057

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hirah

2-Isaac of Nineveh(7th century Qatari born Nestorian Saint)/Bet Qataraye:

10058

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh

3-Pre-Islamic Nestorian Site in Sir Beni Yas Island (UAE) :

10059

Marawah Island Nestorian Church ():


1006510065

Locations of Marawa and Sir Beni Yas Islands(UAE) :

10064

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 08:44 AM
2-Isaac of Nineveh(7th century Qatari born Nestorian Saint)/Bet Qataraye:

10058

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh

3-Pre-Islamic Nestorian Site in Sir Beni Yas Island (UAE) :

10059


4-Pre-Islamic Nestorian Site in Jubeil/Eastern coasts Of Arabian Peninsula :

10060100611006210063

ddugas
07-01-2016, 11:49 AM
very interesting documentation Babylon_74. I was aware of the Nestorian presence in the Gulf and also aware of its impact on some of the tribes we were discussing. I believe the Banu Tamim have some nestorian roots and in wikipedia there is even mention of a legend that the ancestor of the tribe met a disciple.

"The family tree of Banu Tamim is as follows: Tamim son of Mowr son of Ed son of Amr son of Elijah son of Mudar[1] son of Nizar son of Adnan[2] son of Ishmael son of Abraham.[3] Tamim is one of the largest of all Arab tribes. The tribe has appeared in the first century, the ancestor of the tribe Tamim ibn Murr, met a disciple of Jesus Christ. The tribe, occupied the sixth century the eastern part of the peninsula before playing an important role with the revelation of Islam. They came into contact with Muhammad in the year VIII of the Hegira, but they did not immediately converted to Islam. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamimi

There is a Human Genones data sample from Stoneking-HGDP000021 which is a dravidian speaking brahui. They are FGC9923+ which is an equivalent FGC9962 SNP.

My current thinking is in line with your hypothesis which is actually probably more than hypothesis since there is already clear evidence of certain tribes having nestorian roots. But going deeper in time to the bronze age, this particular branch of J-F3133 I would say could be somewhat native to the gulf and maybe southern iran and evolved out of Sumer Elam or Jiroft.

ddugas
07-01-2016, 12:01 PM
Hi Hanna:

Yes, at this point L192.2 seems to originate in eastern Anatolia but I would assume it is found in Iran, Northern Iraq as well. I do think it too has an early christian connection as there is Armenian L192's and Arab L192s with similar haplotype and surname! I also think that the 1 or 2 cases in Italy are clustering with Armenians. But likely, the L192 clade is older than Christianity so it may be found in Kurds, Armenians, Turks and others but yes, eastern anatolia seems to be the hotspot for that clade. It has also been found in Saudi Arabia with some prominent families. I'm sure you have been in contact with Kamel Gazzah, he is probably the most knowledgeable on this subclade of L24.

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 01:12 PM
My current thinking is in line with your hypothesis which is actually probably more than hypothesis since there is already clear evidence of certain tribes having nestorian roots. .

In fact the "official" religion of most eastern coast tribes before the rise of Islam were The Nestorian Christianity.The most evident case for Nestorian influence were the Abd Qais and Banu Hanifa Tribal faith, while according to historians the major Temimi Tribal branch of Arabia were subdivided between Paganism/Polytheism and minor Zoroastrian influence,On the other hand their Mesopotamian counterpart in Al-Hira(Iraq) were obviously under the direct influence of Nestorian Church and all the way To Lakhm and Tay tribes.
________________________

*For further readings for those interested in the subject I recommend The Book (Arabia and The Arabs-From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam) By Robert G.Hoyland



But going deeper in time to the bronze age, this particular branch of J-F3133 I would say could be somewhat native to the gulf and maybe southern iran and evolved out of Sumer Elam or Jiroft

Still a plausible hypothesis Since the Nestorian church had later also a stronghold in this geographical location (Huzaya).This is why I was little bit frustrated that the recent Ancient DNA Study didn't include also prehistoric site from Mesopotamia such as (Jemdet Nasr),(Ubaid),(Samarah)which didn't help us at all unlocking the mystery of Sumerians.

Babylon_74
07-01-2016, 01:18 PM
But likely, the L192 clade is older than Christianity

Indeed,But how do you decode the presence of Christian Indian clusters (The Church of Saint Thomas) on both PF4888 and F3133 lines?

Hanna
07-01-2016, 02:08 PM
I that project which kit number is your grandfather's
281948

What do you think?

ddugas
07-01-2016, 02:18 PM
Indeed,But how do you decode the presence of Christian Indian clusters (The Church of Saint Thomas) on both PF4888 and F3133 lines?

I am reasonably confident this is a Syriac Christian migration to Kerala of 2 J-L25 lineages and I would say, supportive of your hypothesis.

Hanna
07-01-2016, 02:18 PM
Hi Hanna:

Yes, at this point L192.2 seems to originate in eastern Anatolia but I would assume it is found in Iran, Northern Iraq as well. I do think it too has an early christian connection as there is Armenian L192's and Arab L192s with similar haplotype and surname! I also think that the 1 or 2 cases in Italy are clustering with Armenians. But likely, the L192 clade is older than Christianity so it may be found in Kurds, Armenians, Turks and others but yes, eastern anatolia seems to be the hotspot for that clade. It has also been found in Saudi Arabia with some prominent families. I'm sure you have been in contact with Kamel Gazzah, he is probably the most knowledgeable on this subclade of L24.

Yes, I have contact with Kemal Gazza

My grandfather is Polat here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fs5eUwbT5zo/U1fjmSgT49I/AAAAAAAAAuo/g-YEm297kG0/s1600/L1922-37-02.png

My grandfather is in group 2.1 and there is an Italian in his group:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/t31.0-8/11110888_10153271197514324_1139127345937387561_o.j pg

J Man
07-01-2016, 04:28 PM
281948

What do you think?

This sample from the J2-L192.2 YDNA Project. 281948. Polat Mezreifısırık/Devedağı, Hunut/Çamlıkaya, İspir Turkey. He has an exact 12 marker match with a Zaza man from Eğil with a Dersim origin which looks interesting.

Babylon_74
07-02-2016, 01:15 PM
There's one unsolved genetic mystery. Even though it's not directly connected to Arabs and their tribal J2 lines ,But it's worth mentioning.
it's the high presence of J2a-M410>L26 lines (23.1%) and L24 lines(17.6%) in Zoroastrian of Yazd and Tehran

On the same genetic study The Gheshmi People living in (Qeshm Island)showed also high presence of M410>L26 and L24 lines (10.2%) and (12.2%) respectively

10101

I studied the early history of Qeshm Islandand I have found that it was inhabited and named earlier after (Banu Kawan) a known Tribal branch of (Abd Qais) Tribe.Another Aramaic version for the name in history was (Bar Kawan ) which mean Son of Kawan.

Banu kawan Island later was lost it's old Tribal name that used to link it to the Nestorian Arab Tribe(Abd Qais) and was replaced in medieval time by a new name that link it to a more recent Arabic Tribal ruler family (Al-Qasimi).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qasimi

This name was later deformed historically again by the Portuguese (Queximi) and the Persian (Qeshm) and recently the Arabs adopted later ironically another deformed version which is (Jesm).

I'll be really interested if Al-Qasimi tribe turned later to be J2a and its derivatives ,But this is only a speculation till now.What we have now is that only the people of Al-Qasimi Island or Banu Kawan island showed high presence of M410>L26 and L24 lines (10.2%) and (12.2%) respectively

Babylon_74
07-02-2016, 01:33 PM
10101

I studied the early history of Qeshm Islandand I have found that it was inhabited and named earlier after (Banu Kawan) a known Tribal branch of (Abd Qais) Tribe.Another Aramaic version for the name in history was (Bar Kawan ) which mean Son of Kawan.

Banu kawan Island later was lost it's old Tribal name that used to link it to the Nestorian Arab Tribe(Abd Qais) and was replaced in medieval time by a new name that link it to a more recent Arabic Tribal ruler family (Al-Qasimi).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qasimi

This name was later deformed historically again by the Portuguese (Queximi) and the Persian (Qeshm) and recently the Arabs adopted later ironically another deformed version which is (Jesm).

I'll be really interested if Al-Qasimi tribe turned later to be J2a and its derivatives ,But this is only a speculation till now.What we have now is that only the people of Al-Qasimi Island or Banu Kawan island showed high presence of M410>L26 and L24 lines (10.2%) and (12.2%) respectively

And a reminder...




Another 2 important J2 samples (12 markers modal) which belongs to the famous Arabian tribe(Abd Qais) that used to live on the eastern coasts of Arabian peninsula

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abdul_Qays

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyunid_dynasty

1-Sanajrah(Abd Qais) from Iraq
2- Jahahfa/Oyounieen(Abd Qais) from Arabia

10049

ddugas
07-02-2016, 02:41 PM
There is a paper coming out on Zoroastrians and it includes some Ancient DNA from Iran. It will be an interesting one to read...

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2016/06/another-ancient-genome-from-iran-coming.html

There is also a thread on this forum about the upcoming paper as well

Babylon_74
07-03-2016, 05:08 AM
10126

Another worth mentioning of possible demogaphical exchange of J2a lines between Mesopotamia and Eastern Arabia is the historical migration mentioned by (Strabo). the founding of (Gerrha) city by the Babylonian on the Eastern coasts of Arabian Peninsula

10127


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrha#cite_note-1

Babylon_74
07-03-2016, 05:19 AM
10126

Another worth mentioning of possible demogaphical exchange of J2a lines between Mesopotamia and Eastern Arabia is the historical migration mentioned by (Strabo). the founding of (Gerrha) city by the Babylonian on the Eastern coasts of Arabian Peninsula

10127


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrha#cite_note-1

Another worth mention internal migration within Mesopotamia itself is the Exile of the Christians of (Sinjar) سنجار and (Amida) آمد in 348 A.D by Shapur II to the Southern Marshs

10128

Babylon_74
07-03-2016, 11:24 AM
Nestorian Christianity in the Pre-Islamic UAE and Southeastern Arabia By Peter Hellyer

http://www.adias-uae.com/publications/hellyer01b.pdf

______________________________________

10133

Babylon_74
07-10-2016, 09:25 AM
Dear J-Man,

The 4th Beni Asad sample (Kit#N96297) belongs to Al-Turayhi branch is a little bit upstream in J2a (M410>PF5008>L581 )

This stream is probably rare in Iraqi results unless the Obadah(Beni Amer) samples(kit#193364,193340) +AlSaray(Beni Taghlib) samples (kit#193339,193342)+Temim sample (kit#304627)are confirmed to be +ive for L581.

This can change the preliminary geographical conclusion about this SNP,Because we already know that both Obadah/Amer Tribe,Saray/Taghlib Tribe are actually Marsh Arabs tribes and they do form with the Temimi sample (kit#304627) a Mesopotamian cluster.

9963


Do you know of any other Arab tribes who have Chieftains/Sheikhs that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a?


To through more lights on this controversial point.I can give you an example from Ibn Said Al-Andalusi's book (Nashwat Al-Tarab Fi Tarikh Jahliyat Al-Arab)-(685 Hijri/ 1286 A.D)when he was mentioning Temim tribe in Arabian Peninsula.He said they were totally dispersed there,They do not exist as a tribe anymore in Nejd....They already left to Basra/Iraq...etc

Almost 100 years before him Al-Hazimi(584 Hijri/1190 A.D) named the 6 main branch of Temim tribe(Anbar-Riyah-Nahshal-Saad-Darem-Mushaji') and put them totally in Iraq/Basra region not in Arabia.

Similarly Ibn Khaldoun -the Famous Historian and sociologist from the 14th century-when he mentioned Temim Tribe in Arabia he said : ((They were dispersed later in the cities and they do not have any traces in Arabian Peninsula)...So any claimed connections between a modern bedouin tribe in Arabian Peninsula and the old Bedouin Temim tribe is purely imaginitive. Thus The old Temim tribe that we knew from the old genealogical books has to be found in Iraq...etc

Another new J2a Tribal Iraqi Temimi Cluster away from the Temimi Iraqi sample (kit#304627) .This New genetic cluster seem also really interesting since it belongs to the Tribal branch of (Al-Masalha/Temim) .Taking into consideration that Temim chieftain in Iraq (Al-Suhail) is from this famous Temimi tribal branch :


304585 تميم Iraq J-M172 12 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 11 13 11 28
304608 تميم Iraq J-M172 12 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 11 13 11 29
304624 المصالحة ، تميم Iraq J-M172 12 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 11 13 11 29

Agamemnon
07-10-2016, 02:59 PM
We also have three J1 Tamimi clusters, each belonging to a different branch of YSC234, namely FGC6770 (under FGC2), FGC4361 (under FGC1721) and FGC4723 (under FGC4745). I think this goes on to show that tribal affiliation should not be taken literally, it is best understood as a confederation of clans which does not automatically imply common paternal descent for all members of the tribe... Either that or the differences are local.

Babylon_74
07-10-2016, 04:35 PM
We also have three J1 Tamimi clusters, each belonging to a different branch of YSC234, namely FGC6770 (under FGC2), FGC4361 (under FGC1721) and FGC4723 (under FGC4745). I think this goes on to show that tribal affiliation should not be taken literally, it is best understood as a confederation of clans which does not automatically imply common paternal descent for all members of the tribe... Either that or the differences are local.

This is valid in case the tribe main branch hadn't migrate to Iraq historically speaking.This is what makes the J1>FGC1721 lines like (Al Haditha) /Al-A'nbar J1>L222>FGC7944 Temimi branch highly controversial heritage since it claims a direct decent from the ancient Adnanite Temim (Banu Al-A'nbar) while in fact it's clustered with a famous Qahtanite Tribe like (Dawasir-Al-Badareen) and share a total different historical geography.

Same debatable rule is applied for (Al-Wahbah) J1>L222>FGC6 Temimi branch highly controversial heritage since it also claims a direct decent from the migrated ancient Adnanite Temim while in fact it's clustered with a Qahtanite Tribe like (Benu Zaid-Qudha'a)

Concerning Al-Mazari'i (Banu Al-Anbar) Temimi J1>FGC4745 branch this particular tribal branch composes a different tribal story which needs further investigation since it's -L858.


By going back to Temimi J2a lines .I already mentioned both The (Bou Ellyan) -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (J2a>F3133>F3369) and most probably on the same genetic line the (Bou Einayn)-Eastern coasts of Arabia-Temimi branch.

I believe those particular J2a Arabian Peninsula Temimi branchs are parts of the historical (Banu Sa'ad/Temim) along with the Iraqi (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) .All three of them would compose the most accurate tribal confederation of the ancient bedouin Temim tribe

J Man
07-10-2016, 05:07 PM
We also have three J1 Tamimi clusters, each belonging to a different branch of YSC234, namely FGC6770 (under FGC2), FGC4361 (under FGC1721) and FGC4723 (under FGC4745). I think this goes on to show that tribal affiliation should not be taken literally, it is best understood as a confederation of clans which does not automatically imply common paternal descent for all members of the tribe... Either that or the differences are local.

I have always viewed tribes as made up of an alliance of distinct clans that are not always necessarily genetically related.

Babylon_74
07-10-2016, 05:28 PM
I have always viewed tribes as made up of an alliance of distinct clans that are not always necessarily genetically related.

Indeed,They wouldn't been able to survive in extreme and aggressive environment with scarce natural resources without composing tribal alliances from different genetic paternal lines.Otherwise a small tribal war or an epidemic would have totally wipe them to the degree of mass extinction.

J Man
07-11-2016, 02:20 AM
This is valid in case the tribe main branch hadn't migrate to Iraq historically speaking.This is what makes the J1>FGC1721 lines like (Al Haditha) /Al-A'nbar J1>L222>FGC7944 Temimi branch highly controversial heritage since it claims a direct decent from the ancient Adnanite Temim (Banu Al-A'nbar) while in fact it's clustered with a famous Qahtanite Tribe like (Dawasir-Al-Badareen) and share a total different historical geography.

Same debatable rule is applied for (Al-Wahbah) J1>L222>FGC6 Temimi branch highly controversial heritage since it also claims a direct decent from the migrated ancient Adnanite Temim while in fact it's clustered with a Qahtanite Tribe like (Benu Zaid-Qudha'a)

Concerning Al-Mazari'i (Banu Al-Anbar) Temimi J1>FGC4745 branch this particular tribal branch composes a different tribal story which needs further investigation since it's -L858.


By going back to Temimi J2a lines .I already mentioned both The (Bou Ellyan) -Nejdi Temimi branch- which forms a huge cluster under (J2a>F3133>F3369) and most probably on the same genetic line the (Bou Einayn)-Eastern coasts of Arabia-Temimi branch.

I believe those particular J2a Arabian Peninsula Temimi branchs are parts of the historical (Banu Sa'ad/Temim) along with the Iraqi (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) .All three of them would compose the most accurate tribal confederation of the ancient bedouin Temim tribe

Of all of the Temimi tribal members that have tested so far does the Bou Ellyan branch have the most members? That is have more men from the Bou Ellyan branch of the Temimi tribe tested than men from any other branch of the tribe?

Babylon_74
07-11-2016, 07:44 AM
Of all of the Temimi tribal members that have tested so far does the Bou Ellyan branch have the most members? That is have more men from the Bou Ellyan branch of the Temimi tribe tested than men from any other branch of the tribe?


I can summarize for you the importance of (Bou Ellyan) Tribal Temimi branch in two fundamental points:

1- Historically ,They were major part of the famous A'naqer Temimi tribal branch that ruled over Al-Qaseem (the heart of the Najd region) for 3 centuries.

2- Genetically ,They share the same Tribal Modal markers with the equally important Temimi (Bou Einayn) Tribal Temimi branch from Eastern coasts of Arabian Peninsula,That is

13 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 12 13 11 29

Actually this 12 markers modal is typical Modal hyplotype of the genetic line (J2a>F3133>F3369) which is also shared with other Eastern coasts families in Arabian Peninsula which eventually makes it an indigenous genetic line in that geographical region for at least 2.5K years, and links it directly to the historically famous Banu Sa'ad-Temim tribal branch that used to live in the Eastern region of Arabia that currently extended between modern day (Kuwait) in the north and modern day (U.A.E) in the south.So if you want to speak numbers this genetic Temimi line would definitely fit the criteria,Both demographically and historically.

N.B: There was an old Tribal Temimi quote that used to say:

إذا كنت من تميم ففاخر بحنظلة وكاثر بسعد وحارب بعمرو

which means: If you were from Temim(Tribe).Make your (Tribal) Honor in (Handhala)Branch,Exceed your numbers with
(Sa'ad)Branch,And fight with (A'mro) Branch.

Babylon_74
07-11-2016, 09:01 AM
We shouldn't also forget about the Iraqi (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) also have a clear (Banu Sa'ad-Temim) tribal heritage.Which makes all the 3 Famous Banu Sa'ad-Temimi branches J2a.

The (Bou Ellyan) and (Bou Einayn) both under (J2a>F3133>F3369),While (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) cluster still needs further tests to know its terminal SNP under J2a.

Babylon_74
07-11-2016, 10:07 AM
We shouldn't also forget about the Iraqi (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) also have a clear (Banu Sa'ad-Temim) tribal heritage.Which makes all the 3 Famous Banu Sa'ad-Temimi branches J2a.

The (Bou Ellyan) and (Bou Einayn) both under (J2a>F3133>F3369),While (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) cluster still needs further tests to know its terminal SNP under J2a.

My preliminary estimation for (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) genetic cluster is under

J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>Z6065>Y7708>M47

this is a parellel J2a genetic line of (Al-Khayoun /Banu Asad) cluster:


J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>M67>Z500>M92

Babylon_74
07-11-2016, 10:35 AM
My preliminary estimation for (Al-Masalha/Temimi branch) genetic cluster is under

J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>Z6065>Y7708>M47




In case my estimation was accurate .This particular J2a>L26>M47 line is not an alien genetic line to Eastern coasts of Arabian Peninsula-The original geographical region of Banu Sa'ad /Temim- since we already knew that there's one Jahahfa/Oyounieen(Abd Qais) sample from Arabia on this line

10314


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyunid_dynasty

along with multiple Eastern coasts Arabian samples from all around the Persian Gulf such as:

Kit#368080 from Kuwait,Kit#M7065 Oman ,Kit#M6687 from United Arab Emirates, ,Kit#H1067 Bender Abbas/ Iran J-M172,Kit#M5061 Saudi Arabia and Kit#260396 Qatar...etc

Babylon_74
07-12-2016, 08:56 PM
Below is a snapshot of what we are starting to see under J-FGC9961. Note these are just big Y results, there are actually more cases (view J-L24 DNA project) but generally speaking we are seeing this subclade in Iraq, Iran and the Arabian Peninsula seemingly peaking in the Gulf though this may be a result of sample bias as many Gulf Arabs have done DNA testing. So I think we are seeing at least a bronze age common origin between Tayy, Tamimi, Soudan and many others. Another interesting observation is the few Europeans in this subclade do not cluster with each other but in each case cluster with a different Arab result suggesting a relatively more recent migration to Europe. I also think the subclade J-L243 that Babylon_74 is in probably spread in a similar fashion from a similar origin. At this point I chalk up this subclade to originating in Sumer, Elam or Jiroft cultures but who knows; DNA always seems to yield the unexpected...
10027

David,Your Surname (Dugas/Dukas) seems interesting.I have also found a Kyrgyz Kuwaiti Sample in your genetic tree if I'm not mistaken.

You know I was reading lately about the Turco-Mongol tribal confederations and I have found an interesting tribal branch which was the Keraites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keraites

I'm sure you have read about the famous Nestorian Keraite princess (Doquz) ,and in some spelling she was named (Dukas) طقز خاتون.

10343 10344

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doquz_Khatun

I'm not sure if there was some real paternal connection between the 2 names.Especially she was a princess not even a prince.I know it could be a wild distant theory away from your European family surname.But have you consider digging further into this historical probability at least out of curiosity ?

ddugas
07-13-2016, 02:26 PM
Interesting Babylon_74.

My paternal ancestor was from Oloron-Sainte-Marie in the Pyrenees, 50KM from the spanish border. It is on the Somport Pass which was a very well documented route to/from Spain, Aragon and Zaragoza specifically. I suspect my ancestors were involved in the textile trade both there, and when they came to "New France" as fur traders. Oloron is a textile town. Merchants in Oloron were involved in the trade of textiles with Sephardic Jews in Aragon and Zaragoza in the 1400s; the town was the first stop for Moors coming out of Spain (over 10 thousand in 1609) and Henri of Bearn used Moorish/Morisco soldiers at various times. It is said that moorish ancestry runs deep in Bearnaise people from this area. That being said, the picture just isn't clear enough yet IMHO. The alans also had run of this pass early on. Right now I am researching the Banu Hud and Banu Tujibi of Zaragoza who came from Yemen.

There is another Dugas ancestor who came from the same area, Abraham Dugas. He is SNP tested J-P279. My line is FGC9961+, FGC9962+, FGC32503+ which is shared with only 1 other individual from Iraq. What I find interesting is the correlation with the other dugas ancestor-we both share a surname and a terminal haplogroup subclade found in the same areas of the Middle East despite both of us coming from an area of France that can show upwards of 80-90% R1b and I

Babylon_74
07-13-2016, 04:23 PM
My paternal ancestor was from Oloron-Sainte-Marie in the Pyrenees, 50KM from the spanish border. It is on the Somport Pass which was a very well documented route to/from Spain, Aragon and Zaragoza specifically. I suspect my ancestors were involved in the textile trade both there, and when they came to "New France" as fur traders. Oloron is a textile town. Merchants in Oloron were involved in the trade of textiles with Sephardic Jews in Aragon and Zaragoza in the 1400s; the town was the first stop for Moors coming out of Spain (over 10 thousand in 1609) and Henri of Bearn used Moorish/Morisco soldiers at various times. It is said that moorish ancestry runs deep in Bearnaise people from this area. That being said, the picture just isn't clear enough yet IMHO.

Interesting heritage,The only genetic dilemma is the scarcity of J2-L24 lines in Aragon and Zaragoza specifically.

10365

I only read about 4 J2 samples from the Basque country in the latest Spanish genetic study.Unfortunately they do not follow a pattern or a modal.

10366

But that doesn't exclude entirely the Moorish J2- L24 hypothesis .Actually I have one Lebanese (El-Hoss) under my Terminal SNP L243 that does have well known Moorish/Andalucian ancestry.In my case it didn't lead to a solid theory since my Terminal SNP (PF4888>L243) is quite old.Still we have another genetic riddle which is your closest Iraqi sample!




Right now I am researching the Banu Hud and Banu Tujibi of Zaragoza who came from Yemen


Yemeni Genetic lines definitely have a tangible effect on Moorish gene pool .The problem with Yemeni genetic lines they are clearly J1 dominated.

In fact I had some historical suspicions about the Jewish Benu Yehya cluster (J1-L816) was in fact a Moorish Judaized genetic line and it's somehow connected to Moorish Benu Yehya of Niebela (a Yemeni Yahseb tribe) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niebla,_Spain

In fact their upstream J1 SNP is definitely Yemini and they share it with the Jabr/Khawlan tribe.

I'll also try to read more about Banu Hud and Banu Tajib/Kindah of Zaragoza.Hopefully I can find some interesting stuff.

Babylon_74
07-13-2016, 06:24 PM
I'll also try to read more about Banu Hud and Banu Tajib/Kindah of Zaragoza.Hopefully I can find some interesting stuff.


According to historians (Banu Hud)of Zaragoza had two probable genealogical lineages:

1- They go back to Abu Ayoub Souleiman Ben (Hud) Al-Juthami,Where (Hud) is the first of their ancestors to enter Spain with the Arabs.
Some track (Hud) back to (Salim Mawla Abu Hudhayfa) a freed Persian slave from Istakhr.(Hud) back to (Abdulah) Ben (Mousa) Ben (Salim)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Mawla_Abu_Hudhayfa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istakhr

2-The other line they track (Hud) to (Rauh Ben Zinba') Al-Juthami.The chieftain of Jutham tribe* during early Omayyad era.

*This is highly unprobable since (Jutham) Tribal samples in the Levant and Egypt are J1>YSC0000076. Actually the Tribal geography of (Jutham) hasn't yield a dominant genetic line other than the YSC 76.

10381

Babylon_74
07-13-2016, 07:07 PM
and Banu Tajib/Kindah of Zaragoza.Hopefully I can find some interesting stuff.

On the other hand Kindah Tribe has some historical J2-L24 potentials since we have two different J2>F3133 tribes from UAE that share a Kindi Heritage.

1-Al-Sudan/Suwaidi Tribe,Already discussed previously .Their line is F3133>(L363)
2-Al-Ghayidi/Gawayid Tribe* (Kit#M6424 and M6398)
_______________________________________

*It will be genetically interesting to know Al-Gawayid tribe terminal SNP.

Mustache
07-16-2016, 05:06 AM
What are your thoughts on J2a-M410 origins in Yemen? According to the study by Abu Amero et al. it comes to 4.84% over there.

J Man
07-16-2016, 06:01 AM
On the other hand Kindah Tribe has some historical J2-L24 potentials since we have two different J2>F3133 tribes from UAE that share a Kindi Heritage.

1-Al-Sudan/Suwaidi Tribe,Already discussed previously .Their line is F3133>(L363)
2-Al-Ghayidi/Gawayid Tribe* (Kit#M6424 and M6398)
_______________________________________

*It will be genetically interesting to know Al-Gawayid tribe terminal SNP.

Has it been confirmed that the dominant/majority Y-DNA haplogroup lineage of the Al-Sudan/Suwaidi tribe is J2a-F3133?

Babylon_74
07-16-2016, 06:49 AM
What are your thoughts on J2a-M410 origins in Yemen? According to the study by Abu Amero et al. it comes to 4.84% over there.

There's some old and indigenous J2a and J2b lines in Southern Arabia (Yemen and Dhofar region/Oman) ,But frankly speaking it's hard to track their initial historical migration to Southern Arabia.A quick scan in Yemeni Dna projects can give you a clearer idea for those genetic J2 lines.

As an example:

M7065 Al-Khalis Oman J-M172 12 23 14 10 12-16 11 15 12 13 11 29

279677 Dhofar Study Unknown Origin J-M172 12 23 14 10 12-17 11 15 11 13 11 29

279674 Dhofar Study Dhofar Oman J-M172 12 24 14 10 16-16 11 15 12 14 11 30

255674 Al-Khidri Amran/Yemen J-M172 12 25 15 9 13-18 11 17 12 13 11 29

279799 AL Kholani San'a/Yemen J-M172 12 25 14 10 13-14 11 14 11 14 11 30

279675 Ba-Oqbah Al-Kindi Yemeni Yemen J-M172 12 23 14 10 13-16 11 16 11 13 11 30

279246 Al-Hakmani Unknown Origin J-M172 12 23 15 9 19-19 11 15 12 12 11 28

Babylon_74
07-16-2016, 07:07 AM
Has it been confirmed that the dominant/majority Y-DNA haplogroup lineage of the Al-Sudan/Suwaidi tribe is J2a-F3133?

It's almost confirmed that the majority of Al-Sudan/Suwaidi tribe in UAE are J2a-F3133,But you can not get an "official" confirmation since their Y-DNA project is still private.
Actually they were described 100 years ago in (The Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf) as "different" and that you can always differentiate them from the other surrounding tribes they were living with.

10474

Babylon_74
07-16-2016, 07:20 AM
What are your thoughts on J2a-M410 origins in Yemen? According to the study by Abu Amero et al. it comes to 4.84% over there.

There's an important point worth to mention.Actually you can not relate those old J2a lines in Southern Arabia to the Sasanian Empire conquest of Yemen during the reign of (Khosrau I) and the time of (Sayf ibn Dhi-Yazan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayf_ibn_Dhi-Yazan

Since (Al-Abna') Persian tribes الأبناء who were the current descendants of those Sassanid officers and soldiers are according to DNA forums on different genetic lines such as:

Al-Dailami =J1* and J1-P58
Al-Halimi= R1b1b2
Al-Dubaili=E1b1b1c
Al-Zindani=E1b1b1c

ddugas
07-16-2016, 11:06 AM
Has it been confirmed that the dominant/majority Y-DNA haplogroup lineage of the Al-Sudan/Suwaidi tribe is J2a-F3133?

they are but you won't see it published. They wholly make up the L363 clade under FGC9962 which is under FGC9961 and F3133.

As I mentioned to you earlier, there are over 20 Suwaidi's on my big Y match list that are L363+. Included in that list is one titled "Sultan". They get analysis from one of the J-L24 Project admins to go through the Big Y and FGC data and all their private SNPs below L363 are on the J-L24 tree which you can find here: http://kemal.comuv.com/l24/J2-L24(2016-06-28).pdf

Jman, I will send you a PM.

J Man
07-24-2016, 04:11 PM
I can summarize for you the importance of (Bou Ellyan) Tribal Temimi branch in two fundamental points:

1- Historically ,They were major part of the famous A'naqer Temimi tribal branch that ruled over Al-Qaseem (the heart of the Najd region) for 3 centuries.

2- Genetically ,They share the same Tribal Modal markers with the equally important Temimi (Bou Einayn) Tribal Temimi branch from Eastern coasts of Arabian Peninsula,That is

13 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 12 13 11 29

Actually this 12 markers modal is typical Modal hyplotype of the genetic line (J2a>F3133>F3369) which is also shared with other Eastern coasts families in Arabian Peninsula which eventually makes it an indigenous genetic line in that geographical region for at least 2.5K years, and links it directly to the historically famous Banu Sa'ad-Temim tribal branch that used to live in the Eastern region of Arabia that currently extended between modern day (Kuwait) in the north and modern day (U.A.E) in the south.So if you want to speak numbers this genetic Temimi line would definitely fit the criteria,Both demographically and historically.

N.B: There was an old Tribal Temimi quote that used to say:

إذا كنت من تميم ففاخر بحنظلة وكاثر بسعد وحارب بعمرو

which means: If you were from Temim(Tribe).Make your (Tribal) Honor in (Handhala)Branch,Exceed your numbers with
(Sa'ad)Branch,And fight with (A'mro) Branch.

Have any Sheikhs/Chieftains of the Bou Ellyan branch of the Temimi tribe tested?

Babylon_74
07-25-2016, 12:15 AM
Have any Sheikhs/Chieftains of the Bou Ellyan branch of the Temimi tribe tested?

a specific Sheikhs/Chieftain sample ?...not to my knowledge

J Man
10-11-2016, 04:23 AM
Any new J2a Arab tribal results lately?

wmehar
01-05-2017, 08:34 PM
There's an important point worth to mention.Actually you can not relate those old J2a lines in Southern Arabia to the Sasanian Empire conquest of Yemen during the reign of (Khosrau I) and the time of (Sayf ibn Dhi-Yazan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayf_ibn_Dhi-Yazan

Since (Al-Abna') Persian tribes الأبناء who were the current descendants of those Sassanid officers and soldiers are according to DNA forums on different genetic lines such as:

Al-Dailami =J1* and J1-P58
Al-Halimi= R1b1b2
Al-Dubaili=E1b1b1c
Al-Zindani=E1b1b1c

Tribe Ad Dulaimi also has J2/R1a members demonstrating a somewhat strong presence so far.


Dulaim clan

Haplogroup

Al-Bu Mahal [7] J-M172
Al-Bu Sodah [8] J-L243
Al-Jersat [9] J-M267
Al-Mahamda [10] J-M267
Albu Alwan [11] R-M198, R-M512
Al-Bu Fahd [12] R-M512
Others R-M512

Smilelover
09-02-2017, 07:12 AM
Any new J2a Arab tribal results lately?

My uncle result came and classified as
J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>L558>Z17181>M319>? order of BigY or J2 SNP Panel

Edward J
09-02-2017, 11:35 AM
There have been some Big Ys added under J-Z43045
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z43045/

Edward J
09-02-2017, 11:36 AM
I am not sure if this grouping has any connection to a certain tribe.

Ghassanid
08-16-2019, 12:43 AM
Hello, regarding the kit N74325, can we conclude to what tribe or ethnicity it belongs to? My speculations is that it represent Phoenician or Jewish Y-DNA. Ghassanids would mostly have had J1 Y-DNA, however, there were Jews (possibly with J2 Y-DNA) in Yemen for many centuries. Is there enough evidence to discard other assumptions of J2 populations, such as Greek, Roman, etc? What evidence is there to support that this kit belongs to, or does not belong to a specific ethnicity? Someone once told me that my haplotype is Cohanim and Sephardic, however I do find it unlikely that my ancestors lived in Spain. This contradicts the Ghassanid lineage and the presence of this surname in north Lebanon. Any clarification would of great help- Thank you

alchemist223
08-16-2019, 02:51 AM
Is this your kit? I would join the J2 projects (here at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/j2-m172/about/background and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/j2-arab/about/background) at FTDNA in order to learn more about your subclade and its origin.

Ghassanid
08-16-2019, 09:59 AM
Yes, this is my kit. I am already member of those groups. I am J2a4 (not sure if this changed over time) and I have 67 STR's. 12-1 I have a match in England. Apologies for the lack of knowledge in genealogy, trying to learn more over time

J Man
06-10-2020, 03:38 PM
Anyone know of any Bedouin results that are J2a?

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 03:51 PM
Anyone know of any Bedouin results that are J2a?

I've found J-L70 Bedouins from the following tribes:
- 3 from Banu Tayy > Bani Skhr
- 1 from Banu Tamim
- 1 from Banu Kinanah

J Man
06-10-2020, 03:53 PM
I've found J-L70 Bedouins from the following tribes:
- 3 from Banu Tayy > Bani Skhr
- 1 from Banu Tamim
- 1 from Banu Kinanah

Interesting....They are 100% confirmed Bedouins along their paternal lines?

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 03:55 PM
Interesting....They are 100% confirmed Bedouins along their paternal lines?

That's just what FTDNA says

qallezan65
09-24-2020, 01:25 AM
Hi everyone. My maternal grandfather is Lebanese, and his family claims to be descended from the Ghassanid kings. His paternal haplogroup is J-Z7671 (NevGen says there is a 100% chance that it is J-CTS6804), and I recently ordered him a Y-700 test. Is it possible that he could still be a descendant of the Ghassanids, or does his haplogroup contradict that?

subzero85
09-24-2020, 08:04 PM
(kit#328600) from Beni Asad/Nasriyah is only a 12 markers sample.Unfortunately it doesn't seems to be on the same cluster with other Banu Asad samples.Even on Haplgroup Predictor it didn't seem to be even a J2a

87% J2b
12% J2a

9968



Unlike The 4th Beni Asad sample (Kit#N96297) which belongs to Beni Asad/Al-Turayhi branch which was a little bit upstream in J2a (M410>PF5008>L581 ).
Again this sample may fall within some old Mesopotamian L581 line.

its final position depends on the "Probable" L581 cluster within some other Marsh Arabs tribes

9969

Is Bani Assad part of Quraysh?

maroco
09-24-2020, 08:06 PM
I’m the future king of banu hilal

Dewsloth
09-24-2020, 08:17 PM
Hi everyone. My maternal grandfather is Lebanese, and his family claims to be descended from the Ghassanid kings. His paternal haplogroup is J-Z7671 (NevGen says there is a 100% chance that it is J-CTS6804), and I recently ordered him a Y-700 test. Is it possible that he could still be a descendant of the Ghassanids, or does his haplogroup contradict that?

I don't know the answer to that question, but greetings from the Lebanese J-M47 side :biggrin1:

qallezan65
12-05-2020, 02:12 PM
I got my Lebanese grandfather's Y-700 results. His terminal SNP is J-Z40558. So far, he is the only Lebanese man on YFull or FamilyTreeDNA to fall under this specific subclade. He shares the most SNPs with the Tunisian sample (same man on both sites).