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Just_Doc
10-21-2015, 02:29 AM
Hey Folks,

Recent listener, first time caller.

I am wondering which R1a SNP pack I should pull the trigger on - the Z283, the Z280 or neither?

I am a bit confused in regards to what my actual subclade is because according the 23&me, I am M207+, M306+, P224+, P227+, P232+, P280+, and P285-; however, it is not clear as to whether or not 23&me tests for P285. I will assume that since I test positive for 6 out of 7 of the defining mutations, that the 7th one is a given, according to the chipset and the known information.

To add more confusion, when comparing the deeper data on my chip with SNPedia subclades, I appear to also be M64.2+, M87+ and M204-; as well as P278+. Despite being M204-, would it also be safe to assume that my actual subclade is closer to R1a1a1c/R1a1a1a2c?

If this is indeed the case, is it still worth paying for the SNP package, or should I pick and choose which additional SNP's to test, and if so, does anyone have any recommendations?

Also, if there is someone out there who has some info regarding parallel SNP's that 23&me DOES test for that would by default narrow things down a bit in terms of subclades, I would be more than willing to post my info up for analysis.

lgmayka
10-21-2015, 03:22 AM
To add more confusion, when comparing the deeper data on my chip with SNPedia subclades, I appear to also be M64.2+, M87+ and M204-; as well as P278+.
If you are actually P278+ , then you belong to R-P278 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-P278.2/) (or R-P278.2, since P278.1 is in haplogroup E (http://yfull.com/tree/E-M4254/)). But R-P278 is quite specific--it is ordinarily found in Central and Eastern Europe. Are you sure you are interpreting 23andMe's data properly? Does 23andMe say you are R1a1a, or are you interpreting that for yourself?

paulgill
10-21-2015, 03:56 AM
Hey Folks,

Recent listener, first time caller.

I am wondering which R1a SNP pack I should pull the trigger on - the Z283, the Z280 or neither?

I am a bit confused in regards to what my actual subclade is because according the 23&me, I am M207+, M306+, P224+, P227+, P232+, P280+, and P285-; however, it is not clear as to whether or not 23&me tests for P285. I will assume that since I test positive for 6 out of 7 of the defining mutations, that the 7th one is a given, according to the chipset and the known information.

To add more confusion, when comparing the deeper data on my chip with SNPedia subclades, I appear to also be M64.2+, M87+ and M204-; as well as P278+. Despite being M204-, would it also be safe to assume that my actual subclade is closer to R1a1a1c/R1a1a1a2c?

If this is indeed the case, is it still worth paying for the SNP package, or should I pick and choose which additional SNP's to test, and if so, does anyone have any recommendations?

Also, if there is someone out there who has some info regarding parallel SNP's that 23&me DOES test for that would by default narrow things down a bit in terms of subclades, I would be more than willing to post my info up for analysis.

By spending $100 on each SNP pack and ending up with a $400 bill, I suggest that you buy FullGenomes 4x WGS for $350.00 and be done with all your Ydna concerns in one shot.

Just_Doc
10-21-2015, 11:20 AM
23&Me has my paternal haplogroup listed as R1a1. No interpretation on that end.

In regards to the other SNP's, I became curious after visiting the SNPedia page that lists the defining mutations needed for each respective clade. I use the SNPTips browser plug in, so every time a SNP is mentioned by its RSID and it matches what data I have, it illuminates. I will attach screen shots when I get home to illustrate.

Is it possible that I am seeing autosomal artifact? I suppose that ultimately I would need to go back into my 23&me data or my full Promethese report and figure out what specific gene the defining mutation is on.

Just_Doc
10-21-2015, 11:20 AM
The FTDNA SNP Pack is $119 I believe.

paulgill
10-21-2015, 11:50 AM
The FTDNA SNP Pack is $119 I believe.

But you may need many packs and still wouldn't get your terminal SNP with SNP packs.

Just_Doc
10-22-2015, 01:53 AM
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If you are actually P278+ , then you belong to R-P278 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-P278.2/) (or R-P278.2, since P278.1 is in haplogroup E (http://yfull.com/tree/E-M4254/)). But R-P278 is quite specific--it is ordinarily found in Central and Eastern Europe. Are you sure you are interpreting 23andMe's data properly? Does 23andMe say you are R1a1a, or are you interpreting that for yourself?

I appreciate the insight.
I have attached the screenshots to illustrate what I mentioned before. Any thoughts?

lgmayka
10-22-2015, 09:44 PM
I am wondering which R1a SNP pack I should pull the trigger on - the Z283, the Z280 or neither?
So-called SNP packs are offered by FTDNA. Have you been tested by FTDNA at all? If you have only been tested by 23andMe, it is crucial that you determine whether you are actually P278+ or not. If you are P278+ , you belong to R-P278, which is already very specific. If you appear to be P278+ but want to double-check, you could order the P278 SNP test from Yseq. If you want to make sure you don't have an independent occurrence, you could order Yseq's entire Z280 SNP panel.

Just_Doc
10-23-2015, 06:19 PM
So-called SNP packs are offered by FTDNA. Have you been tested by FTDNA at all? If you have only been tested by 23andMe, it is crucial that you determine whether you are actually P278+ or not. If you are P278+ , you belong to R-P278, which is already very specific. If you appear to be P278+ but want to double-check, you could order the P278 SNP test from Yseq. If you want to make sure you don't have an independent occurrence, you could order Yseq's entire Z280 SNP panel.

Thanks for the info.

No, I have yet to be tested by FTDNA, which is why I initially asked which route to go in terms of the Y packages. Had I of not been tested by 23&me initially, then it would make sense to do the Y-25 or Y-37 test.

I suppose the question is, how reliable is the 23&me data?

You mentioned testing for P278 via Yseq. Anything else you would recommend regarding the R1 clade?

Edit - So, I feel a bit stupid at the moment. After some looking around I came to the conclusion that 23&Me does indeed assign HG's based on the assumption that if you have a mutation for rs3908 (M17), for instance, that you will also have a mutation for rs2020857 (M198), despite that SNP not actually being on their chip.

Is this a correct conclusion?

It would be interesting to know the Y chromosome locations that 23&Me uses to define particular HG's. Presumably, 23&Me most likely tested this SNP for another HG because they do not go any deeper than R1a1a for the R clade from my understanding and because it is also found in more than one HG.

According to the Raw data Browser, the P278.2 SNP (rs7067418) supposedly occurs at 8467053 on the Y chromosome, if that tells you anything. Is it possible that because that the presence of the 278.2 SNP would redefine my terminal SNP?

In light of this, I suppose the next step is to follow your advice and confirm though additional testing.

Just_Doc
02-03-2016, 09:35 PM
After the SNP discussion, I decided to get a Y37 test done. Yesterday I received my results and am really at a loss as to where to go next.

FTDNA states that my Haplogroup is M198, which is consistent with 23&Me.

When doing a YSearch genetics match for 12 markers with a genetic distance of 0, I get back mostly people in Hungary, Russia, Germany, Poland and Slovenia. When I expand the search to 37 markers with a distance of 4, I get one solid result from Germany. On FTDNA, under Ancestral Origins, same thing. Most heavily populated is Austria, Czech, Germany, Hungary, the Ukraine and Lithuania, most all of which have “Ashkenazi" in the comments section.

Talk about a shock.

Additionally, there are absolutely no matches for my surname, or any of it's variants. Understandably, my surname is fairly rare, but our family lineage runs deep in the United States and is well documented.....so much to the point that all of us presently living can trace our lineage to a single gentleman who arrived in Virginia in the mid-17th century. Prior to that however, there is nothing really substantial in the United States, or the UK, which is where our family was thinking he originated. To make a long story short, our family was always under the impression that our surname was a variant of the Tuathail/O’Tuathail surname from Kildare.

In light of this recent genetic information, I am really unsure as to what to think at this point. There are R1a1 exact matches from the UK in the areas in which we are believed to have come from, but the profile info for the matches is marked as private.

Would it be fair to assume that the most obvious answer is that there was some sort of NPE somewhere along the way? I do not think its reasonable to assume that my MCRA in America showed up claiming to be from the UK when my own genetic data does not support that notion. Then again...stranger things have been known to happen. I mean, Judaism was banned in the UK for centuries, so it may be just as likely that his family immigrated to the UK in the middle ages and changed their names to assimilate, but a timeline would be nice.

Consequently, I ordered the Y67 upgrade today in the hopes that it will get me some further answers and also ran Whit Athley's subclade program which placed me into G2a-M406. I have joined the FTDNA R1a group and applied to the Ashkenazi group, so hopefully that will provide some additional info.

Any comments or suggestions for me regarding how I should move forward with this info?

My FTDNA kit number is 461014 and my YSearch ID is EYUK4.

lgmayka
02-03-2016, 11:45 PM
When I expand the search to 37 markers with a distance of 4, I get one solid result from Germany.
Since you have a 37-marker match, you really should not pay attention to those at 12 or even 25 markers. Perhaps you could write to your match, suggesting that he upgrade to 67 markers too.

The R1a Project classifies you simply as "Unknown", so your upgrade to 67 markers is a good idea. (Although I might have suggested the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack instead.) You do not belong to any of the Jewish clusters of R1a.

Just_Doc
02-04-2016, 02:47 AM
I appreciate the insight.

I will reach out to my match...though, I am debating if I should write him in German, or English. Having spent a number of years living in different cultures has made me cognizant of how we as Americans can often times come across as a bit pretentious.

So, even at a distance of 4, that puts he and I sharing MCRA at around 3 to 400 years ago, correct? I will do the R1a-Backbone pack in the near future..probably in the next two to three weeks or so. Do they need a new sample, or can they render the same sample that I sent in for the Y37 testing? In your opinion, is it too early to tell which R1a cluster I potentially belong to, simply based on my Y37 results?

I am by no means an expert...but would it be correct to think that each STR reads a bit like a piece of litmus paper, where you have an upper and lower value, and based on each value one is able to discern specific ethno and geographic information about the sample which culminates into an overall genetic origin? If so, how does one ascertain how long ago a specific event happened, such as migration, etc..?

lgmayka
02-04-2016, 05:08 AM
I am debating if I should write him in German, or English.
His email address has the .DE suffix, so I'm sure he would appreciate a fluent German email. But if your German is weak, I suggest you write to him in English; but at the top, add parenthetic permission for him to respond in German:
"Ich lese auf deutsch, aber muss auf englisch schreiben."


So, even at a distance of 4, that puts he and I sharing MCRA at around 3 to 400 years ago, correct?
I would not make nearly so bold a claim. 37 markers is still a rather low level of resolution. Your TMRCA could indeed be 400 years--or it could be much more.


I will do the R1a-Backbone pack in the near future..probably in the next two to three weeks or so. Do they need a new sample, or can they render the same sample that I sent in for the Y37 testing?
Frankly, I do not recommend that right now. Since you have already ordered an upgrade to 67 markers, I suggest you wait for the results of that. It may give us sufficient information to recommend a more specific SNP pack such as R1a-Z280.

FTDNA can ordinarily use the same sample for many tests. Only if all existing DNA samples are exhausted or spoiled, will FTDNA send you an email asking for confirmation of your postal address so that they can send you a new collection kit.


In your opinion, is it too early to tell which R1a cluster I potentially belong to, simply based on my Y37 results?
My best guess, based on your 37 markers, is that you would fall somewhere within the R-YP951 branch (http://yfull.com/tree/R-YP951/).


I am by no means an expert...but would it be correct to think that each STR reads a bit like a piece of litmus paper, where you have an upper and lower value, and based on each value one is able to discern specific ethno and geographic information about the sample which culminates into an overall genetic origin? If so, how does one ascertain how long ago a specific event happened, such as migration, etc..?
No, not really, because the Y-STRs do not mix and match independently (as they would if they were on different chromosomes). Rather, the entire collection of a man's Y-STRs should be treated as a unit (a haplotype). A numerical comparison between two Y-DNA haplotypes can give a very rough estimate of the TMRCA of their patrilineages. And only their patrilineages--no other lines of descent.

In contrast, Family Finder and similar autosomal tests can detect relationships along any line of descent, but within a rather recent timeframe (e.g., 3rd cousins).

Just_Doc
02-23-2016, 03:47 AM
67 STR results are now up. To be honest, I have no clue as to where to go from here. There is so much conflicting data out there concerning this, that it is hard to decide on what to believe.

Any thoughts?

lgmayka
02-23-2016, 05:01 AM
67 STR results are now up. To be honest, I have no clue as to where to go from here.
Your five nearest neighbors in the R1a Project are at a genetic distance of 15 (on 67 markers). That's a lot. But they all belong to the Z284 (Scandinavian) branch of R1a1a.

You have DYS594=11, which is strongly associated with R-Z284; and you have DYS531=12, which is strongly associated with the Z287 subclade of R-Z284.

So I would recommend the R1a-Z284 SNP Pack, for $119.

Just_Doc
02-24-2016, 12:46 AM
I appreciate the guidance. I will order the Z284 pack in the next week or so.

In the meantime, what is known about the Z284 subclade, and what does a distance of 15 mean exactly? I mean, how common are matches at 64 markers below that threshold?

As I understand things, the more markers that are tested, the lower the chances that I will find a direct match unless there is a paternal ancestor out there who has also had the testing done.

That said, what is the significance of exact matches at the 12 marker level, for instance? Is it simply a statistics game, in which 90% of people who are R1a1 will all match within one to two degrees at the 12 marker level?

lgmayka
02-25-2016, 12:21 AM
In the meantime, what is known about the Z284 subclade, and what does a distance of 15 mean exactly? I mean, how common are matches at 64 markers below that threshold?
R-Z284 is most commonly found in Scandinavia and the British Isles (and its former colonies, of course). A distance of 15 on 67 markers is quite large, suggesting that no one in the project is patrilineally related to you within the last couple thousand years or more. But note that your Y-DNA Matches page shows a fairly close match (distance 5 at 67 markers), with a German surname. Perhaps you can persuade him to join the R1a Project?

At 37 markers you have another match (distance 4), again with a German surname. Again, could you ask him to join the R1a Project?


As I understand things, the more markers that are tested, the lower the chances that I will find a direct match unless there is a paternal ancestor out there who has also had the testing done.
I would phrase it more optimistically: The more markers you test, the closer and more reliable the matches you will find. Distance 5 at 67, and distance 4 at 37, are more significant than distance 2 at 25.


That said, what is the significance of exact matches at the 12 marker level, for instance?
Not nearly as much, especially if the list is long.


Is it simply a statistics game, in which 90% of people who are R1a1 will all match within one to two degrees at the 12 marker level?
No, the situation in R1a1 is not quite that "bad." But since you have a match at 67 and a match at 37, I suggest you focus on those.

Just_Doc
06-11-2016, 08:05 PM
All -

Here are the results of my R1a backbone testing (only listing the SNP's that were "true" or "No Call" -

L448 - No call or heterozygous call
M198 - TRUE
M417 - TRUE
M420 - TRUE
M459 - TRUE
PF6162 - TRUE
Y2395 - TRUE
YP1168 - No call or heterozygous call
YP556 - No call or heterozygous call
YP582 - No call or heterozygous call
YP942 - No call or heterozygous call
Z282 - TRUE
Z283 - TRUE
Z284 - TRUE
Z287 - TRUE

So....Z284 SNP pack?

Any thoughts from anyone as to where this is leading at first glance? My first thought would be R1a1a1b1a3. Is this still a viable subclade, or is there something more updated?

The thing that I find odd is the fact that I am Z281- but Z282+?

Michał
06-13-2016, 08:56 PM
So....Z284 SNP pack?
Based on your 67 STR and R1a-Backbone pack results, it seems that the Z284 SNP pack is relatively unlikely to tell you more about your exact phylogenetic position in clade Z287. This is because your STR results do not fit any known subgrouping under Z287. There are three major subclades just under Z287 (CTS8277, CTS8401 and YP402) and two relatively rare minor subclades (YP5155 and F2405, neither of them tested by the Z284 SNP pack) that are currently known to us. Importantly, you have already been tested negative for CTS8277 and for both major subclades under CTS8401 (ie. Z281 and YP398). Since YP402 is not included in the Z284 pack and you are extremely unlikely to test positive for any SNPs downstream of YP402 that are included in that pack, there is a huge risk that you will test negative for all SNPs under Z287 that are tested by the Z284 pack.

Based on the above, I would consider the Big Y test (or any other NGS-based test, like Y Elite) to be the only Y-DNA test worth ordering in your case (maybe except upgrading your STR results to 111 markers, which may turn out useful when searching for potential distant matches). This is in full agreement with your current classification in the FTDNA R1a project, where you have been placed in category "8. ..>Z284>Z287-x (YP402 not tested, Big Y needed)".



Any thoughts from anyone as to where this is leading at first glance? My first thought would be R1a1a1b1a3. Is this still a viable subclade, or is there something more updated?
R1a1a1b1a3 corresponds to R-Z284, while you have been tested positive for the more downstream clade Z287 (which corresponds to R1a1a1b1a3b in the outdated ISOGG tree). BTW, those very long alphanumeric names are no longer used to describe the relatively young downstream subclades, mostly because the very fast progress associated with NGS testing makes such names extremely unstable, so in this particular case it is much more convenient to use the name R-Z287 (or R1a-Z287). For the relatively frequently updated Z287 tree, please see the Z287 part of the Experimental Y-DNA tree maintained by YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z287/.



The thing that I find odd is the fact that I am Z281- but Z282+?
Z281 is deep downstream from Z282, so the vast majority of Z282+ people are negative for Z281 (but all Z281+ men are positive for Z282). The numbers used for such names do not need to have anything to do with the phylogenetic relationship of corresponding mutations. These numbers simply reflect the order in which the mutations were discovered or registered.

Just_Doc
04-30-2018, 03:18 PM
So, it appears as though I have been assigned to Z287.

This past weekend, I received my Y-111 results. I also recently received information that kind of changed my entire perspective about all of this - it turns out that the person who I thought was my father, was not actually. That also explains why I was not finding any surname hits.

Now the issue is finding out if the paternal line for this new surname is direct, or if there was an earlier NPE somewhere along the way. It does have very strong connections to the time, haplogroup, and location of where Clan Donald was started; however, the new surname (Pollock) is quite well known, and specifically regarded to be R1b.

Any thoughts?