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DMXX
12-31-2012, 09:54 AM
I refer readers to this recent publication (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail) by DNA Tribes, where they attempted some autosomal analyses of Eurasian populations.

In it, they made this comment with regard to their "Anatolian-Caucasus" component and its distribution in Europe:



Notably, Anatolia-South Caucasus percentages are lowest in sub-regions located at the geographical peripheries of Southwest and Northeast Europe, which would have been least affected by Neolithic expansions from near the Balkan Peninsula (see Figure 1). In addition, these low percentages are found in places where non-Indo-European languages are still spoken (Basque and Uralic languages). This suggests that the Anatolia-South Caucasus components might (in part) reflect genetic traces of Indo-European expansions since the Neolithic period. These expansions might have involved the mixed Neolithic buffer societies that expanded and dispersed from the Balkan Peninsula, who would have carried their Neolithic technologies and Indo-European languages into other parts of Europe.


After reviewing some archaeological, linguistic and genetic data several months ago, I have considered the Indo-Europeans to represent a hybrid population of local hunter-gatherer-foragers above the Pontic-Caspian watershed with early Neolithic migrants from the Near-East, represented by West Asian and North European components (as per popular ADMIXTURE labels). To my surprise, DNA Tribes has produced a document of some worth in this context.

I base this proposition on two simple observations:

1) Elevated North European component in Central Asia (e.g. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan) and South Asia (select Pakistani and Indian groups), as well as certain West Asian ethnic groups (e.g. Persians, Kurds) to a lesser extent. Refer to the maps below.(Partially confounded by the established migration corridor between Northeast Europe and East Asia facilitating the movement of prehistoric hunter-gatherers (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/07/secrets-of-central-asia-chapter-ii.html). Therefore, some of the North European component found in that stretch of steppeland is likely to be pre-Indo-European in origin.)

2) Elevated West Asian component among Indo-European-speaking Northeast Europeans and a lack of it in the outermost peripheries of Europe. Refer to this ACD Tool example (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qEuHu2yjr8g/UDDQjfwtSHI/AAAAAAAAAOc/X2Yt31ZR950/s1600/example.png) I carried out several months ago on Vaêdhya (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/08/introducing-acd-tool.html), this DNA Tribes publication and the maps below. (Possibly confounded by established neolithic demic diffusion via Anatolia through to SE Europe. )

As a side note, this proposition is further supported by the independent discovery of autosomal signals connecting either the North Caucasus or South-Central Asia with various parts of Europe by David W./Polako ("Interestingly, it looks from my experiments that Western Europeans do carry this [European-Volga-West Asian] influence at high levels, and I suspect it partly registers in them as "Gedrosia" in Dienekes' ADMIXTURE runs.") and Dienekes (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/indo-european-genetic-signatures-in.html) despite their opposing theories.

Finally, the reality of ADMIXTURE interpretation (results may not always be literal representations of ancestry) makes it quite possible that the early Indo-Europeans contributed to both the North European and West Asian values seen across Eurasia.

Two maps from the Dodecad K10a run to reinforce the point (although results from any project will suffice):


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WzZfCRFDJqw/T-pcp_u8NSI/AAAAAAAAAKE/b5zQviGXatw/s1600/Atlanticbaltic.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TK_t6TTXW20/T-pcZCZCzCI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/adNsHT6zV2A/s1600/Westasian.png

Thoughts appreciated.

lgmayka
01-02-2013, 09:09 PM
DNA Tribes' publication (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf) also says, intriguingly:
---
For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
---

Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.

J Man
01-03-2013, 12:05 AM
This new DNA Tribes update looks quite good. I have to read it in more detail but from what I see so far is looks very interesting.

Yorkie
01-03-2013, 10:52 AM
DNA Tribes' publication (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf) also says, intriguingly:
---
For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
---

Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.


Poland, again. Quelle surprise.

newtoboard
01-03-2013, 05:48 PM
DNA Tribes' publication (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf) also says, intriguingly:
---
For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
---

Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.

How did they determine the autosomal make up of Scythians? And I guess it is more eastern Ukraine/SE Belarus than W Ukraine used. Didn't Scythians also stretch into the Urals region defined by DNA tibes(Scythian seemed to have extended pretty far north and Absehvo was also in the forest steepe.)

DMXX
01-04-2013, 10:18 AM
How did they determine the autosomal make up of Scythians? And I guess it is more eastern Ukraine/SE Belarus than W Ukraine used. Didn't Scythians also stretch into the Urals region defined by DNA tibes(Scythian seemed to have extended pretty far north and Absehvo was also in the forest steepe.)

They may have used some Scythian auDNA STR data from 2009, but IIRC those samples were from East-Central Asia. If so, DNA Tribes has to be using modern populations in South Russia as a proxy.

newtoboard
01-04-2013, 05:06 PM
They may have used some Scythian auDNA STR data from 2009, but IIRC those samples were from East-Central Asia. If so, DNA Tribes has to be using modern populations in South Russia as a proxy.

That doesn't make that much sense to me. The R1a of the Slavs is different from Indo-Iranian R1a. M458 dominates the Pontic-Caspian steepe and it is pretty obvious that proto-Slavs come West from poland. Not to mention the plethora of other ydna like I1, I2, N1c, R1b-M269 found among Russians. Their origins isn't the same as the Scythians imo. Scythians probably lacked Mediterranian components while the modern inhabitants of their Scythian area have them often making up around 15 to 20% of their autosmal make up.

DMXX
01-04-2013, 06:13 PM
That doesn't make that much sense to me. The R1a of the Slavs is different from Indo-Iranian R1a. M458 dominates the Pontic-Caspian steepe and it is pretty obvious that proto-Slavs come West from poland. Not to mention the plethora of other ydna like I1, I2, N1c, R1b-M269 found among Russians. Their origins isn't the same as the Scythians imo. Scythians probably lacked Mediterranian components while the modern inhabitants of their Scythian area have them often making up around 15 to 20% of their autosmal make up.

I was referring to autosomal DNA STR data, not Y-Chromosome STR's. When I looked into it years back, the south Siberian (presumed) Scythians matched the Kyrgyz better than any other extant population in both quality and quantity.

If we are going to rely on ADMIXTURE results and/or terminology and continue reverse-extrapolating results from extant populations onto the extinct, it actually appears there was a Mediterranean component brought eastwards (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e1ALMfS83jY/T-pcBZNWk2I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/LPAWoG1QXo8/s1600/Mediterreanean.png).

Compare and contrast with Dienekes' Red Sea component from the same run (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-at1aaypu8dY/T-pc189JYTI/AAAAAAAAAKM/xZVD_E3AGTA/s1600/redsea.png), which - Despite a similar overlap across the Middle-East and North Africa as the Mediterranean component - barely made it through Turkey and Iran, let alone South-Central Asia and beyond.

AJL
01-05-2013, 02:32 AM
Poland, again. Quelle surprise.

Not just Poland: lgmyaka is clearly indicating the effect is strongest in the entire area from around Poland in the west to somewhere around Kazakhstan or the far interior of Russia in the east, and from around the Volga or Urals in the north, south to around the Caucasus or Persia.

I would say given the present distribution of IE languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

and this chart of IE languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

an ultimate origin somewhere near the Black and Caspian seas seems most likely: but that doesn't mean Poland did not or could not have inherited a fair chunk of this autosomal DNA; indeed, it seems likely it did given geography and given where Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Iranian languages all meet,or at least at one point met.

DMXX
01-05-2013, 09:53 AM
an ultimate origin somewhere near the Black and Caspian seas seems most likely: but that doesn't mean Poland did not or could not have inherited a fair chunk of this autosomal DNA; indeed, it seems likely it did given geography and given where Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Iranian languages all meet,or at least at one point met.

I need to affirm this point with some further reading, but the presence of Iranic languages in the European steppe is something I'm not fully convinced by.

As far as I'm aware, that conclusion was reached based on fragments of names and sketchy historical sources. I am only aware of the Scythians from central Asia (Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) receiving special attention by the ancient Persians.

newtoboard
01-05-2013, 03:28 PM
Not just Poland: lgmyaka is clearly indicating the effect is strongest in the entire area from around Poland in the west to somewhere around Kazakhstan or the far interior of Russia in the east, and from around the Volga or Urals in the north, south to around the Caucasus or Persia.

I would say given the present distribution of IE languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

and this chart of IE languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

an ultimate origin somewhere near the Black and Caspian seas seems most likely: but that doesn't mean Poland did not or could not have inherited a fair chunk of this autosomal DNA; indeed, it seems likely it did given geography and given where Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Iranian languages all meet,or at least at one point met.

Seems like a weird map since it shows minority speakers. Armenian never stretched to the Caspian for example.

newtoboard
01-05-2013, 03:29 PM
I was referring to autosomal DNA STR data, not Y-Chromosome STR's. When I looked into it years back, the south Siberian (presumed) Scythians matched the Kyrgyz better than any other extant population in both quality and quantity.

If we are going to rely on ADMIXTURE results and/or terminology and continue reverse-extrapolating results from extant populations onto the extinct, it actually appears there was a Mediterranean component brought eastwards (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e1ALMfS83jY/T-pcBZNWk2I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/LPAWoG1QXo8/s1600/Mediterreanean.png).

Compare and contrast with Dienekes' Red Sea component from the same run (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-at1aaypu8dY/T-pc189JYTI/AAAAAAAAAKM/xZVD_E3AGTA/s1600/redsea.png), which - Despite a similar overlap across the Middle-East and North Africa as the Mediterranean component - barely made it through Turkey and Iran, let alone South-Central Asia and beyond.

I thought the Mediterranian component is Central Asia could be attributed to Neolithic farmers or late movements from Iran. It generally is very low in South Asia and among Pashtuns.

newtoboard
01-05-2013, 03:31 PM
I need to affirm this point with some further reading, but the presence of Iranic languages in the European steppe is something I'm not fully convinced by.

As far as I'm aware, that conclusion was reached based on fragments of names and sketchy historical sources. I am only aware of the Scythians from central Asia (Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) receiving special attention by the ancient Persians.



Its also based on Timber Grave's links with Andronovo. Contrary to the popular belief that the Scythian label just referred to slightly similar tribes Mallory says at some point the steppe and forest steepe world was homegnized by somebody. I think even the historical Cimmerians belong to that world.

AJL
01-05-2013, 04:55 PM
I need to affirm this point with some further reading, but the presence of Iranic languages in the European steppe is something I'm not fully convinced by.

As far as I'm aware, that conclusion was reached based on fragments of names and sketchy historical sources. I am only aware of the Scythians from central Asia (Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) receiving special attention by the ancient Persians.

Weren't there some inscriptions found on stelae in Ukraine that closely resembled Ossetian? Jean might be able to help us here.

AJL
01-05-2013, 04:58 PM
Seems like a weird map since it shows minority speakers. Armenian never stretched to the Caspian for example.

What's "weird" about a map that actually shows where IE languages are spoken?

leonardo
01-06-2013, 11:39 PM
Seems like a weird map since it shows minority speakers. Armenian never stretched to the Caspian for example.
It appears, in antiquity Armenia did reach the Caspian sea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parthia_001ad.jpg
http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/26862/Caspian_Sea_Region_Armenia_Sarmatia_Scythia_Persia _Assyria_etc/Solinus.html
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/armenia.php
The one issue I have not been able to resolve in my mind is what, I understand, to be the divide between the ancient peoples of the north and south Caucasus when it come to the PIE argument. Some stand on the side of the north Caucasus region as PIE, while others argue for the south Caucasus region. It appears, for some, the two can't meet.

DMXX
01-07-2013, 01:12 PM
It appears, in antiquity Armenia did reach the Caspian sea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parthia_001ad.jpg
http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/26862/Caspian_Sea_Region_Armenia_Sarmatia_Scythia_Persia _Assyria_etc/Solinus.html
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/armenia.php
The one issue I have not been able to resolve in my mind is what, I understand, to be the divide between the ancient peoples of the north and south Caucasus when it come to the PIE argument. Some stand on the side of the north Caucasus region as PIE, while others argue for the south Caucasus region. It appears, for some, the two can't meet.

newtoboard may have been referring to the northern Caspian coastline. That the Armenian language once stretched over a greater territory than the modern republic is certainly established.

Nevertheless, on a side note, I take interest in the "Aorsi" tribe who lived on the NW Caspian coast due to the apparent similarity with "Arsii", a name seen in Tocharian A texts from the Tarim.

newtoboard
01-07-2013, 03:15 PM
newtoboard may have been referring to the northern Caspian coastline. That the Armenian language once stretched over a greater territory than the modern republic is certainly established.

Nevertheless, on a side note, I take interest in the "Aorsi" tribe who lived on the NW Caspian coast due to the apparent similarity with "Arsii", a name seen in Tocharian A texts from the Tarim.

Those maps are clearly showing empires not the majority population of those regions. Armenia in the map cover significant poriton of Georgia for example. Even the link iteslef talkes about the Armenian's immperalistic expansion. But I doubt the speakers in most of modern day East Azerbaijan or Georgia or N. Iraq as that map shows were speaking Armenian. A large potion of Antolia certainly is part of Armenia but not Eastern Azerbaijan, N. Iraq, or Georgia.

AJL
01-07-2013, 04:21 PM
I doubt the speakers in most of modern day East Azerbaijan or Georgia or N. Iraq as that map shows were speaking Armenian.

I am not claiming that IE originated precisely in what is now Armenia. The point is that we have an entire Armenian language family there, which is, cladistically, on par with other branches: Hellenic, Anatolian, Balto-Slavic, Italo-Celtic, Illyrian, and Indo-Iranian. Of these, I believe all branches except the Italo-Celtic and Illyrian are documented to have been found near to the two seas.

If PIE did not arise close to here, it is rather remarkable that so many divergent branches should be found around the Black and Caspian seas, isn't it? So, unsurprisingly, it is around these water bodies that most linguists believe PIE arose.

The existence of Caucasian languages and unique haplogroups in the mountains does not offer an effective challenge to this hypothesis, but it does prompt other questions about the origins and ways of life of the bearers of these haplogroups/languages.

Jean M
01-07-2013, 08:40 PM
Weren't there some inscriptions found on stelae in Ukraine that closely resembled Ossetian? Jean might be able to help us here.

Sorry - I have no knowledge of this. I can only cite the Circle of Iranian Studies (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Ossetians/ossets.htm):


Ossetic is classified as Northeastern Iranian, the only other surviving member of the subgroup being Yaghnobi, spoken more than 2,000 km to the east in Tajikistan. Both are remnants of the Avestan and Scytho-Sarmatian language groups which was once spoken across Central Asia. It also should be noted that Ossetic has substantial genetic similarities with Pashto, another Eastern Iranian language.

The Scythians were speakers of East Iranian, and some arrived on the European Steppe around the 8th century BC, driving out the Cimmerians. I am assuming that the Cimmerians spoke an Iranian language, since Celtic somehow came in contact with Iranian, and the most plausible way that could have happened is when Cimmerians moved up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin in the 9th and 8th centuries BC, and fed influences into the formation of the Hallstatt C culture c. 750 BC. All we actually know of their language is a few personal names mentioned in Assyrian records. They left no inscriptions, being illiterate.

AJL
01-07-2013, 08:56 PM
Thanks, Jean. That's an interesting site, and I've looked at this page in connection with this thread:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Scythian/saka_nomenclature.htm

Jean M
01-07-2013, 09:00 PM
This paper may be of interest: Mayor et al., Making Sense of Nonsense Inscriptions Associated with Amazons and Scythians on Athenian Vases (http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/mayor/071202.pdf) (2012)



Abstract: More than 2,000 “nonsense” inscriptions (meaningless strings of Greek letters) appear on ancient Greek vases. We ask whether some nonsense inscriptions and non-Greek words associated with figures of Scythians and Amazons represent meaningful sounds (phonemes) in foreign languages spoken in “Scythia” (Black Sea-Caucasus region). We analyze the linguistic patterns of nonsense inscriptions and non-Greek words on thirteen vases featuring Scythians and Amazons by otherwise literate vase painters (550-450 BC). Our results reveal that for the first time in more than two millennia, some puzzling inscriptions next to Scythians and Amazons can be deciphered as appropriate names and words in ancient forms of Iranian, Abkhazian, Circassian, Ubykh, and Georgian. These examples appear to be the earliest attestations of Caucasian and other “barbarian” tongues. This new linguistic approach to so-called nonsense inscriptions sheds light on Greco-Scythian relations, literacy, bilingualism, iconography, and ethnicity; it also raises questions for further study.

AJL
01-07-2013, 09:06 PM
Yes, very interesting!

DMXX
01-10-2013, 10:07 PM
More on the Aorsi (http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes19.html):



It is evident from this text that the Aorsi and their kinsmen, the Upper Aorsi, were tribes of Sarmatian origin and were masters of the lands lying along the coast of the Caspian Sea. The precise eastern boundaries of the Aorsi are unknown, but their influence probably extended to the Aral Sea. They were a great military power and for almost three centuries, until the arrival of the Alans, they played a major role in events of the northern Pontic region.


Given the timing and based on this, it is tempting to speculate the Aorsi may have inherited their ethnonym from the Tarim Tocharians.

Ian B
02-26-2013, 01:42 AM
JeanM: So modern Ossetian is the nearest we can get to Scythian, but has there been any work done to compare Cetic with any of the modern north east european langauges-are there any similarities?:confused:

Ian B
02-26-2013, 01:57 AM
I need to affirm this point with some further reading, but the presence of Iranic languages in the European steppe is something I'm not fully convinced by.

As far as I'm aware, that conclusion was reached based on fragments of names and sketchy historical sources. I am only aware of the Scythians from central Asia (Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) receiving special attention by the ancient Persians.

I thought the Scythian "homeland" was in the Austro/Hungarian region, or has that idea now been revised by later studies?:confused:

AJL
02-26-2013, 02:56 AM
I thought the Scythian "homeland" was in the Austro/Hungarian region, or has that idea now been revised by later studies?:confused:

I suspect that area was only ever believed to to be the very fringe of Scythian influence, while around the Caspian and Aral Seas was probably much closer to the centre.

newtoboard
02-26-2013, 01:32 PM
I thought the Scythian "homeland" was in the Austro/Hungarian region, or has that idea now been revised by later studies?:confused:

No. The Scythian homeland was South Siberia, Kazakhstan and the European steepe (and forest steepe in some cases) ie the lands covered by Abashevo, Andronovo and Timber Grave.

Silesian
02-26-2013, 02:22 PM
At one point it must have encroached upon the Balkans.

"Ateas (ca. 429 BC–339 BC) was described in Greek and Roman sources as the most powerful king of Scythia, who lost his life and empire in the conflict with Philip II of Macedon in 339 BC. His name also occurs as Atheas, Ateia, Ataias, and Ateus."

"Towards the end of his life, Ateas increasingly encroached upon the Greek-Macedonian sphere of influence in the Balkans."

"Peace was bought at the price of concession of 20,000 Scythian women and as many steppe mares to the Macedonians."

AJL
02-26-2013, 04:24 PM
At one point it must have encroached upon the Balkans.

{SNIP}

"Towards the end of his life, Ateas increasingly encroached upon the Greek-Macedonian sphere of influence in the Balkans."

Yes, but again that was the fringes rather than the centre.

Jean M
02-26-2013, 06:25 PM
.. has there been any work done to compare Celtic with any of the modern north east European languages-are there any similarities?

Linguists have compared Celtic languages, surviving and dead, with all the other Indo-European languages. Naturally there are similarities, since they all belong to the Indo-European family. The only other language branch which is sufficiently similar to Celtic for some linguists to postulate a common ancestor is Italic, but there are signs that Pre-Proto-Germanic was in contact with Proto-Celtic. If you are asking about resemblances to Uralic languages such as Finnish or Latvian, I don't know of any specific to the Celtic branch. I wouldn't expect any.

Jean M
02-26-2013, 06:39 PM
I thought the Scythian "homeland" was in the Austro/Hungarian region

You may have seen a map showing the Scythians in the Carpathian Basin and raiding from there. That was not their original homeland. The Danube corridor from the steppe has been the way into Europe for a long succession of peoples.

DMXX
02-27-2013, 01:16 AM
I thought the Scythian "homeland" was in the Austro/Hungarian region, or has that idea now been revised by later studies?:confused:

Herodotus' Histories stated that several theories in ancient times regarding the origins of the Scythians existed and he favoured the one where they left the lands close to the Aral Sea/Syr Darya (confused for the Araxes river) towards Europe.

Interpret this alongside the consensus Eurasian steppe hypothesis of the Indo-European expansions and you have the region comprising as the eastern portion of the Pontic-Caspian steppe through the Urals to the Aral Sea in Kazakhstan as the likely stretch of steppeland from which the Scythians arose.

This happens to the area where - as per the Eurasian steppe theory again - the Proto-Indo-Iranians originated (linked with the Sintashta culture).

lgmayka
03-06-2013, 01:01 AM
If you are asking about resemblances to Uralic languages such as Finnish or Latvian
Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language)is a Baltic language, like Lithuanian. Perhaps you meant to refer to Estonian or the nearly extinct Livonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language).

Jean M
03-06-2013, 10:17 AM
Yes thank you lgmakya. More haste less speed.