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View Full Version : Should DF27* men (from the M343 SNP Pack) order the new DF27 SNP Pack?



lgmayka
10-30-2015, 02:52 AM
Now that FTDNA is actually offering an R1b-DF27 SNP Pack with a specific definition (161 SNPs), the question is: Should those who previously received a DF27* result from the R1b-M343 SNP Pack now order this one?

Specifically, in my project, #196199 and #399633 are DF27* according to the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack.

razyn
10-30-2015, 03:59 AM
Yes. The R1b-DF27 one, not the Z210 or the Z198 ones. There are three new packs, all tailored to distinct (large) segments of the DF27 project. (They didn't use my tailor, but their groupings are at least penetrable.)

lgmayka
10-30-2015, 09:20 AM
Yes. The R1b-DF27 one, not the Z210 or the Z198 ones.
Could you tell me more precisely which new subclades the new R1b-DF27 pack tests for (i.e., beyond what the R1b-M343 pack tests for)? Do Polish men have any realistic chance of testing positive for these additional subclades, or are they localized geographically?

I'm sorry to ask for such detail, but it is difficult to suggest to someone who has already spent $79 on one SNP pack, to spend another $99 on another, if the result is merely to move from DF27** to DF27***.

razyn
10-30-2015, 01:40 PM
I have emailed you with the details I have, on that.

Did not post the analysis here because Mike Walsh did it, I didn't. He shared it on the DF27 Yahoo group last night, if others are looking for it and not finding it here.

lgmayka
10-30-2015, 02:42 PM
I have emailed you with the details I have, on that.
My interpretation is that the new DF27 pack tests the following subclades beyond what the backbone pack tests. Some of them are on YFull's haplotree, often with different names.
A6137
CTS5885 (R-Y11849, British)
DF79 (R-DF79, Spanish)
FGC20747 (R-FGC20747, Iberian and Central European)
FGC23071
S400
BY3289
Z2552 (R-Z2552, Spanish; L617 subclade includes a Ukrainian but is already tested by M343 SNP Pack)
Z2560 (R-Z2559, Spanish, Scandinavian, and Italian)
Y14084 (R-Y13607, British)
Z31644
Z34609
S7432 (within R-S6206, Spanish)
BY3291

Krefter
10-30-2015, 02:51 PM
How much does the DF27 pack cost?

rln
10-30-2015, 06:27 PM
#Igmayka:
Thanks for your interpretation. These snps are broad but not very deep. Z2560 (R-Z2559, Spanish, Scandinavian, and Italian) is co-equal to DF83 under ZZ12 on the ytree.net site.

razyn
10-30-2015, 07:27 PM
#Igmayka:
Thanks for your interpretation. These snps are broad but not very deep.

lgmayka is specifically looking for SNPs at the same level as the ones already tested by his project members who took advantage of the M-343 Backbone pack. So in Mike W's analytical material that I sent him, he checked level 4 (except that in the case of those below ZZ19, he went down to level 5). The test itself, and Mike's documentation, goes down to level 9 in one case, level 8 in eleven cases, level 6 or 7 in most. These are just the 14 major, higher-level (and normally older) SNPs included in the DF27 pack, that were not included on the M-343 pack.

lgmayka
10-30-2015, 10:58 PM
How much does the DF27 pack cost?
The introductory price is $99. But this will presumably rise to $119 within a week or two, as with other SNP packs.

lgmayka
10-30-2015, 10:59 PM
These snps are broad but not very deep.
I only looked at the highest non-ZZ level. The SNP pack actually tests over 160 SNPs!

Rick
10-31-2015, 11:50 PM
Thanks to Mike for setting this up. Just placed my order.

John Marsh
11-01-2015, 04:41 AM
My interpretation is that the new DF27 pack tests the following subclades beyond what the backbone pack tests. Some of them are on YFull's haplotree, often with different names.
A6137
CTS5885 (R-Y11849, British)
DF79 (R-DF79, Spanish)
FGC20747 (R-FGC20747, Iberian and Central European)
FGC23071
S400
BY3289
Z2552 (R-Z2552, Spanish; L617 subclade includes a Ukrainian but is already tested by M343 SNP Pack)
Z2560 (R-Z2559, Spanish, Scandinavian, and Italian)
Y14084 (R-Y13607, British)
Z31644
Z34609
S7432 (within R-S6206, Spanish)
BY3291

Lawrence,

If the DF27 pack includes Z2552 it is a definite step forward, as it is potentially 500 to 1000 years before L617. I think Z2552 has not been well explored yet because it has not often been tested. It is not in BigY, or in the M343 backbone as I understand. FTDNA do test for it individually, but it is one of those secret SNPs not many people talk about much.

I can't say there is a high chance your Polish DF27s are Z2552, but those who you have found L617 in Poland are Z2552. By whatever means L617 got to Poland, ie 500 years ago or 3500 years ago, I am keeping an open mind, those Polish L617s came from a gene pool which included Z2552s. Because the Polish L617s are FGC14951-, making them quite a distinct branch from the English L617s so far, we can't be too sure what we will find in Poland.

I would say there will be some chance, may be just small, that other Polish DF27s will be Z2552. It is a hard call to say if it is a cost effective gamble to test other Polish DF27s for Z2552. I guess there are two choices, test or wonder. Although the chances they will be positive might be small, it would certainly be interesting if Z2552 were moderately common in Iberia.

John.

Isidro
11-01-2015, 08:19 AM
Just ordered my Z198 pack.FTDNA tree does not give me further testing options but perhaps this pack will give me a fine hair final mutation. Will post results.

Piquerobi
11-01-2015, 01:40 PM
I have ordered it (the sample comes from my maternal grandfather). DF27 has so many clades, I had not ordered any test on it so far. That's exactly what I had been waiting! So far I was exploring more my paternal lineage (which is R1b-L11-DF100+).

Rick
12-15-2015, 11:59 PM
Seems some results are coming in today for the first batch of this panel. I got a Z225 out of it, as did two long standing STR-based matches of mine. Hurray!

Piquerobi
12-16-2015, 03:22 PM
The results came out today (from R1b-DF27+ it went to being classified as R1b-Z2545+):


DF27+, P310+, P311+, P312+, M269+, Z225+, Z229+, Z2543+, Z2545+, Z32164+, ZZ12_1+, ZZ12_2-, ZZ19_1-, Z34609-, Z37492-, Z2547-, Z2556-, Z2560-, Z2563-, Z2564-, Z2566-, Z2567-, Z2571-, Z2573-, Z268-, Z274-, Z296-, Z29614-, Z29624-, Z29875-, Z29878-, Z29884-, Z32156-, Z226-, M37-, M65-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L48-, M153-, M222-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, L176-, A2145-, A2146-, A431-, A432-, A433-, A434-, A4658-, A4659-, A4670-, A6456-, A6458-, A7014-, A7380-, A7385-, BY2285-, BY3232-, BY3235-, BY3286-, BY3287-, BY3288-, BY3290-, BY3291-, BY3292-, BY653-, BY834-, CTS1090-, CTS11567-, CTS416-, CTS5885-, CTS6578-, CTS7768-, CTS9952-, DF17-, DF79-, DF81-, DF83-, DF84-, FGC11369-, FGC11414-, FGC11419-, FGC13109-, FGC13125-, FGC14113-, FGC14114-, FGC14124-, FGC14126-, FGC14934-, FGC14951-, FGC17099-, FGC17102-, FGC17112-, FGC17114-, FGC20556-, FGC20747-, FGC20748-, FGC20755-, FGC20761-, FGC20764-, FGC20767-, FGC20816-, FGC21115-, FGC21124-, FGC21129-, FGC23066-, FGC23071-, FGC23074-, FGC23079-, FGC23083-, FGC30918-, FGC30962-, FGC30964-, FGC30993-, FGC30994-, FGC31068-, FGC8127-, L617-, L881-, M225-, M756-, PH133-, PH2047-, S1041-, S400-, SK2109-, Y13115-, Y14084-, Y14468-, Y14469-, Y15636-, Y15637-, Y15639-, Y15924-, Y15926-, Y16018-, Y16863-, Y17221-, Y17446-, Y17787-, Y4865-, Y4867-, Y5058-, Y5072-, Y5077-, Y6949-, Y6951-, Y7363-, Y7364-, YP4295-, Z1513-, Z1899-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z220-, Z223-

razyn
12-16-2015, 06:10 PM
I had 73 project members with results yesterday from the DF27 SNP pack. I think all but 14 of them got moved; those 14 were already in group E (DF27+ and Z195-) and didn't get a positive on any of the known, tested downstream SNPs. Some of those are still in progress, so they may yet get a better terminal SNP than ZZ12. A couple of people would have learned more from the Z209 pack, and a couple with BigY results didn't need it; but most of them picked the right test, and learned something we didn't know about in 2013. Fifteen of the 73 were just in group A -- before the SNP pack they only knew that they were DF27+.

StationMaster
12-16-2015, 06:31 PM
The test was quite helpful to me. I don't see how I could have reasonably guessed the SNPs I tested positive for. Individual SNP testing would have been much more expensive.

lgmayka
12-16-2015, 07:57 PM
I think all but 14 of them got moved; those 14 were already in group E (DF27+ and Z195-) and didn't get a positive on any of the known, tested downstream SNPs.
Those who are in R-ZZ19 are told that they belong in an F subgroup unknowable except via Big Y. What is an F subgroup?

gotten
12-16-2015, 08:19 PM
What is an F subgroup?

Dick has organized the FTDNA DF27 project into SNP groups that are denoted with capital letters. All the F SNP Groups have in common that they are ZZ19+ and each one represents a known SNP below ZZ19. The Group Eb has as comment: "Eb. ZZ12+, ZZ19+ (DF27+ Z195-) Terminal SNP should be an F subgroup, but BigY is needed if it was not found with DF27 pack."

Until a ZZ19 pack emerges the partial coverage by the DF27 pack, individual SNP testing or the Big-Y are the only options to explore it.

razyn
12-16-2015, 10:55 PM
IIRC my allegation that any known but missing SNPs could only be discovered via BigY was on the FTDNA "activity feed" or whatever they call it now. As an Administrator I'm not supposed to suggest testing with their competitors; and I pretty much follow that "guideline" when posting on their site. On the DF27 Yahoo group, I did mention FGC Elite. The point is, these packs are looking for SNPs they are told to look for. They weren't told in October (when the DF27 pack was launched) to look for SNPs discovered (or put on a public tree, so we knew they had been discovered) in November or since.

Also, although SNP pack results were posted yesterday, if one logs in to those kits and opens the Haplotree display, a few SNP names below DF27 are still in orange, nominally meaning the test for it is "in progress." I didn't open the Haplotree display for all 73 new kits, but did look at perhaps a dozen. It is possible that further discoveries might be made, in any such kit. I am not holding my breath, but it is possible.

All of my remarks about alphabetized groups E, F or whatever refer to the only project I attempt to run, the R1b-DF27 and Subclades haplogroup project at FTDNA. I have co-admin rights in a few other projects, including DF27 at YFull and my own surname at FTDNA; but I don't mess with their groupings -- just use some of the admin tools, to learn what I can.

jfttrh44
03-12-2016, 05:34 PM
Yes. The R1b-DF27 one, not the Z210 or the Z198 ones. There are three new packs, all tailored to distinct (large) segments of the DF27 project. (They didn't use my tailor, but their groupings are at least penetrable.)

Since you seem to know a lot. I am R1b1b2a1a in 23andme (V4 chip), and I did not know that they did not test for some clades as DF27 and others. I am from Spain, I am not U106, but I cannot confirm that I am DF27+ or others since they donīt test it on v4 of their chip.

What is the best way to know what is my real subclade? Which is the best company to test? Quality-price relation. It is ridiculous that on v3 they tested for it and on v4 they donīt test DF27, so many people from Spain just get a R1b1b2a1a and nothing else. It is disapointing.

BTW I am also one of those rare V mtdn, probably V14 or V15 but, I just got "V" from 23andme. I donīt know why they donīt announce it on their web: "Our subclades tests are very limited, so maybe you just get a very generic one".

REWM
03-12-2016, 06:48 PM
I am R1b1b2a1a and tested with 23andme, but on the V3 chip. They do not test for DF27 on any of their chips that I know of.

If you are looking to test for DF27 then YSEQ.net or Family Tree DNA would be your options.

YSEQ.net is by far the cheaper and faster company.
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1934

razyn
03-12-2016, 07:34 PM
Since you seem to know a lot. I am R1b1b2a1a in 23andme (V4 chip), and I did not know that they did not test for some clades as DF27 and others.
I don't know a lot about 23andMe, though I did have my first test there (because a friend who had bought ten kits at a discount for his surname project, and only sold seven to its members, gave me a kit that was otherwise due to expire in a few weeks). I learned relatively little from the 23andMe analysis, such as it was. But a guy named Adriano Squecco used to do free analyses that were very detailed, if people sent him their raw data. I was among those who did so. He could only see the Y positions that the 23andMe version of the Illumina chip had been told to look at; and that coverage was not nearly broad enough to find all of our relevant SNPs, to determine fine subclade detail. But if one happened to have a then-known SNP, in a position that was scanned, the 23andMe test found it. And Adriano's Facebook page reported it (independent of 23andMe).

Also, autosomal results from that version of 23andMe data could be transferred to Family Finder at FTDNA for $50. I did that, too. And Family Finder has been much more useful to me than the erratic tools and services available through 23andMe itself.

jfttrh44
03-12-2016, 08:52 PM
I am R1b1b2a1a and tested with 23andme, but on the V3 chip. They do not test for DF27 on any of their chips that I know of.

If you are looking to test for DF27 then YSEQ.net or Family Tree DNA would be your options.

YSEQ.net is by far the cheaper and faster company.
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1934

Yes, it looks the cheapest one. But what if I am not DF27?. It says 17.50 plus shipping cost. (to Europe, at least 40-50$). If I have to spend 80$ to test for each clade that is not U106...

What 23andme should do it test DF27! It is so strange that they do not test it as many people in Europa can have this clade!. At least they should announce it, because it is like if I have thrown money to the dustbin: just R1b1b2a1a!. I wanted to know more and they should offer that option or at least tell us in advance that they donīt do some important clades.

jfttrh44
03-12-2016, 08:54 PM
I don't know a lot about 23andMe, though I did have my first test there (because a friend who had bought ten kits at a discount for his surname project, and only sold seven to its members, gave me a kit that was otherwise due to expire in a few weeks). I learned relatively little from the 23andMe analysis, such as it was. But a guy named Adriano Squecco used to do free analyses that were very detailed, if people sent him their raw data. I was among those who did so. He could only see the Y positions that the 23andMe version of the Illumina chip had been told to look at; and that coverage was not nearly broad enough to find all of our relevant SNPs, to determine fine subclade detail. But if one happened to have a then-known SNP, in a position that was scanned, the 23andMe test found it. And Adriano's Facebook page reported it (independent of 23andMe).

Also, autosomal results from that version of 23andMe data could be transferred to Family Finder at FTDNA for $50. I did that, too. And Family Finder has been much more useful to me than the erratic tools and services available through 23andMe itself.

I tried the transfer to Family Finder but they donīt allow v4 chips of 23andme. Just until v3. So, nothing.

What do you think about gedmatch?

I posted this message for those that said that "it only serves for the last 500 years":
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4576-Do-you-trust-23andme-s-Ancestry-Composition-or-GEDmatch-calculators-more&p=145115&viewfull=1#post145115

REWM
03-12-2016, 10:02 PM
Yes, it looks the cheapest one. But what if I am not DF27?. It says 17.50 plus shipping cost. (to Europe, at least 40-50$). If I have to spend 80$ to test for each clade that is not U106...

What 23andme should do it test DF27! It is so strange that they do not test it as many people in Europa can have this clade!. At least they should announce it, because it is like if I have thrown money to the dustbin: just R1b1b2a1a!. I wanted to know more and they should offer that option or at least tell us in advance that they donīt do some important clades.

I don't know what the shipping to Europe is, but $5 for the United States. You would only have to pay shipping once. If you wanted more testing done they use the same sample you already sent. You could also do a panel test.

http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=16349

23andme focus is on Medical not Ancestry. What Ancestry do report is very basic and outdated for Haplogroups.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2016, 11:26 AM
Yes, it looks the cheapest one. But what if I am not DF27?. It says 17.50 plus shipping cost. (to Europe, at least 40-50$). If I have to spend 80$ to test for each clade that is not U106...

What 23andme should do it test DF27! It is so strange that they do not test it as many people in Europa can have this clade!. At least they should announce it, because it is like if I have thrown money to the dustbin: just R1b1b2a1a!. I wanted to know more and they should offer that option or at least tell us in advance that they donīt do some important clades.

Since you are R1b1b2a1a at 23andme you are negative for U106, U152, L21, M167/SRY2627, and M153. You can follow the procedure at http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/a-web-site-with-tools-for-y-and-other-dna-analysis/ to see that for yourself. That information along with the fact that your paternal line is from Spain and the Valverde et al. study at http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html found 0% L238 and DF19 in Spain and the FTDNA and 1,000 Genomes projects haven't found Latin Americans or Spaniards with those SNPs but almost 100% DF27 when they are R1b but negative for U106, U152, and L21 then it would be extremely rare for you to be negative for DF27. You would very likely save money by getting the DF27 SNP test at YSEQ. After that, if positive for DF27, you will probably want to get the DF27 panel test at YSEQ http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=10749

jfttrh44
03-13-2016, 12:57 PM
Since you are R1b1b2a1a at 23andme you are negative for U106, U152, L21, M167/SRY2627, and M153. You can follow the procedure at http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/a-web-site-with-tools-for-y-and-other-dna-analysis/ to see that for yourself. That information along with the fact that your paternal line is from Spain and the Valverde et al. study at http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html found 0% L238 and DF19 in Spain and the FTDNA and 1,000 Genomes projects haven't found Latin Americans or Spaniards with those SNPs but almost 100% DF27 when they are R1b but negative for U106, U152, and L21 then it would be extremely rare for you to be negative for DF27. You would very likely save money by getting the DF27 SNP test at YSEQ. After that, if positive for DF27, you will probably want to get the DF27 panel test at YSEQ http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=10749

Thanks. I will take a look.

But, I have read on other thread that it could also be useful to do NatGeo, by the cost it will go almost the same than doing what you suggest (also with the panel test)

"NatGeo has selected their 12,000 Y-DNA SNPs from a worldwide population, whereas BritainsDNA have selected their 14,000 Y-DNA SNPs from a mainly European population and therefore has a bias in favour of haplogroup R1b1a2a1a."

It would be much better BristainsDNA but they doesnīt seem to send to my country.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2016, 01:07 PM
Thanks. I will take a look.

But, I have read on other thread that it could also be useful to do NatGeo, by the cost it will go almost the same than doing what you suggest (also with the panel test)

"NatGeo has selected their 12,000 Y-DNA SNPs from a worldwide population, whereas BritainsDNA have selected their 14,000 Y-DNA SNPs from a mainly European population and therefore has a bias in favour of haplogroup R1b1a2a1a."

It would be much better BristainsDNA but they doesnīt seem to send to my country.

I have a couple of CSV files from NatGeo results and the YTree has a list of DF27 SNPs at http://www.ytree.net/ I am going to see which ones downstream DF27 are in the NatGeo test and let you know which ones aren't in NatGeo but are in the YSEQ panel. By the way, NatGeo has put some people into the wrong subclade including some DF27 people. See the threads at http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0

update: There are only about 200 SNPs, including equivalents, downstream from DF27 that are in the NatGeo CSV file that are also visible in the tree at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29 There might be a dozen more SNPs that are in the NatGeo test that are downstream from DF27 but they are very likely insignificant for you.
These are the SNPs downstream from DF27 that are in the NatGeo test (I had to separate equivalents) -


Z195
Z198
CTS4188
S14445
S11121
S11475
S22015
Z269
Z263
Z201
Z203
Z202
CTS8289
Z207
CTS4299
FGC11226
FGC11232
FGC11235
FGC11237
FGC11240
FGC11244
FGC11248
FGC11252
CTS3444
CTS5447
CTS5606
CTS10355
CTS4549
CTS606
CTS3555
CTS6340
A173
Z15291
Z2675
CTS9158
Z2675
L165
BY129
Y5120
BY130
Y5111
BY131
Y5112
BY134
Y5128
BY135
Y5132
BY132
Y5119
Y5110
Y5113
Y5122
Y5115
Y5123
Y5134
Y5131
Y5133
Y5121
Z274
S1306
CTS7768
S1319
S11695
SK2120
FGC14126
FGC14124
FGC14129
M428
FGC14132
FGC14133
FGC14135
BY2073
Z268
Z220
Z209
S25783
CTS4065
Z211
Z270
Z213
Z218
Z221
Z278
Z212
CTS12074
M153
CTS10504
CTS7870
S21184
CTS9050
CTS8196
ZZ12
FGC20767
FGC20750
FGC20751
FGC20752
FGC20756
FGC20758
FGC20761
FGC20762
FGC20763
FGC20766
FGC20748
FGC20769
CTS7204
CTS11087
F1343
CTS9952
Z227
CTS7759
Z240
Z234
Z2563
CTS9545
CTS6519
Z2567
BY834
BY837
BY1134
BY1293
BY1356
BY1477
BY1485
BY1711
BY1779
BY2194
L617
FGC14937
FGC14936
DF81
Y7352
FGC21119
Y7356
FGC21120
FGC21115
Y7354
FGC21122
Y7357
FGC21124
FGC21123
Y7358
Y6952
Y6953
Y6954
FGC20554
CTS7356
PR4859
BY1058
BY1177
BY1211
BY1364
BY1380
BY1467
BY1717
BY2114
BY2533
BY1067
BY2285
Y5075
FGC22213
Y5076
FGC22190
A641
FGC19598
Y5058
FGC22195
Y5059
FGC22205
Y5062
FGC22194
FGC22193
Y5063
FGC22196
Y5065
FGC22191
FGC22218
Y5069
FGC22206
Y5070
FGC22224
Y5077
FGC22203
Y5073
FGC22209
FGC22225
F3032
A431
Y3267
A432
F1928
Z1513
FGC11373
FGC11395
FGC11394
FGC11398
FGC11411
FGC11378
FGC11379
FGC11413
FGC11380


The YSEQ DF27 Panel has 124 SNPs. Even though there are less DF27 SNPs than NatGeo it's probably all you need to test to find your terminal SNP and the YSEQ test is cheaper than Natgeo.

jfttrh44
03-13-2016, 03:35 PM
I have a couple of CSV files from NatGeo results and the YTree has a list of DF27 SNPs at http://www.ytree.net/ I am going to see which ones downstream DF27 are in the NatGeo test and let you know which ones aren't in NatGeo but are in the YSEQ panel. By the way, NatGeo has put some people into the wrong subclade including some DF27 people. See the threads at http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0

Ok. Thanks. Is there any SNP that is already tested in 23andme (v4 chip) that is downstream from DF27 and that I could look at it?

Besides DF27, what other possibility could I be considering that I am negative to most of the others?

REWM
03-13-2016, 04:06 PM
Ok. Thanks. Is there any SNP that is already tested in 23andme (v4 chip) that is downstream from DF27 and that I could look at it?

Besides DF27, what other possibility could I be considering that I am negative to most of the others?

M167/SRY2627, and M153 are downstream of DF27 under the Z195 branch that you would be negative for.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2016, 04:11 PM
Ok. Thanks. Is there any SNP that is already tested in 23andme (v4 chip) that is downstream from DF27 and that I could look at it?

M167/SRY2627 and M153 are the only SNPs downstream from DF27 that are tested by 23andme.


Besides DF27, what other possibility could I be considering that I am negative to most of the others?
If you are asking which other SNPs downstream from the 23nadme R1b1b2a1a haplogroup that you are probably negative for but not tested by 23andme- they are DF99 DF19 L238 A9063. The likelihood that you are positive for any of those is extremely small. Only DF19 and L238 are tested by NatGeo.

I updated one of my previous posts with the DF27 SNPs that are found in the NatGeo test. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5734-Should-DF27*-men-%28from-the-M343-SNP-Pack%29-order-the-new-DF27-SNP-Pack&p=145263&viewfull=1#post145263

jfttrh44
03-13-2016, 08:16 PM
M167/SRY2627, and M153 are downstream of DF27 under the Z195 branch that you would be negative for.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29

Thanks.



M167/SRY2627 and M153 are the only SNPs downstream from DF27 that are tested by 23andme.


If you are asking which other SNPs downstream from the 23nadme R1b1b2a1a haplogroup that you are probably negative for but not tested by 23andme- they are DF99 DF19 L238 A9063. The likelihood that you are positive for any of those is extremely small. Only DF19 and L238 are tested by NatGeo.

I updated one of my previous posts with the DF27 SNPs that are found in the NatGeo test. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5734-Should-DF27*-men-%28from-the-M343-SNP-Pack%29-order-the-new-DF27-SNP-Pack&p=145263&viewfull=1#post145263


I will look at which one I will do. Do you know if there is any new kind of test or any new kind of company with new technology for DNA test in the incomming months? I donīt want to spend money in something, if maybe in 4-5 months there is something much more complete that cost just 50-100$ more than what I expect to spend now.

jfttrh44
03-13-2016, 08:18 PM
Armando, I have found this post from you:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3839-The-Major-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-R1b-M269-in-West-Europe-Lucotte-et-al-2015&p=70753&viewfull=1#post70753

R1b1b2 R1b-M269
R1b1b2a R1b-L23
R1b1b2a1 R1b-L51
R1b1b2a1a rs13304168 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128 ISOGG 2015 R1b1a2a1a
R1b1b2a1a1 rs16981293 (M405/S21/U106) R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1a rs17222279 (M467/S29/U198) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d rs13303755 (L48) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d1 rs34283263 (L47) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a2b i3000029 M153 descendent of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2c i3000043 M167/SRY2627 descendant of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2f rs11799226 (L21) R1b-L21 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2f2 rs20321 R1b-M222 descendant of R1b-L21
R1b1b2a1a2d rs1236440 (S28) R1b-U152 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2d3* rs2566671 R1b-L2 descends from R1b-U152
R1b1b2a1a2d3a rs7067305 R1b-L20 descends from R1b-L2




And if positive is "derived", ie, on the right of the 2 options (A or G), then I have the following:

R1b1b2a1a2c i3000043 A or G G
R1b1b2a1a2f2 rs20321 A or G G
R1b1b2a1a2d3a rs7067305 A or G G

I am derived to this 3 (I am "G" in the 3). How can be explained?

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2016, 08:34 PM
Armando, I have found this post from you:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3839-The-Major-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-R1b-M269-in-West-Europe-Lucotte-et-al-2015&p=70753&viewfull=1#post70753

And if positive is "derived", ie, on the right of the 2 options (A or G), then I have the following:

R1b1b2a1a2c i3000043 A or G G
R1b1b2a1a2f2 rs20321 A or G G
R1b1b2a1a2d3a rs7067305 A or G G

I am derived to this 3 (I am "G" in the 3). How can be explained?

In order to see the ancestral and derived alleles you have to go to the mutation mapper at https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/ ,which I mentioned in the post you quoted, or the ISOGG SNP list at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

G is ancestral for the three SNPs that you mentioned so you are negative for all three of them.

variant call anc der
i3000043 (M167) G A
rs20321 (M222) G A
rs7067305 (L20) G A

jfttrh44
03-13-2016, 10:55 PM
In order to see the ancestral and derived alleles you have to go to the mutation mapper at https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/ ,which I mentioned in the post you quoted, or the ISOGG SNP list at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

G is ancestral for the three SNPs that you mentioned so you are negative for all three of them.

variant call anc der
i3000043 (M167) G A
rs20321 (M222) G A
rs7067305 (L20) G A

Totally understood now. I am negative to all of them in your post.

ximocarr
03-27-2016, 10:49 AM
Hi all I have just received my snp Terminal from FTDNA DF 27 pack, here is my results:A2145-, A2146-, A431-, A432-, A433-, A434-, A4658-, A4659-, A4670-, A6104 *, A6456-, A6458-, A7014-, A7380-, A7385-, BY2285-, BY3232-, BY3233-, BY3235-, BY3286-, BY3287-, BY3288-, BY3289-, BY3290-, BY3291-, BY3292-, BY3327-, BY3328-, BY3329-, BY3330-, BY3331 *, BY3332-, BY653-, BY834-, CTS1090-, CTS11567-, CTS1643-, CTS416-, CTS5885-, CTS6578-, CTS7768-, CTS9952-, DF17-, DF19-, DF27+, DF27+, DF79-, DF81-, DF83-, DF83-, DF84-, FGC11369-, FGC11414-, FGC11419-, FGC13109-, FGC13110 *, FGC13125-, FGC14113-, FGC14114-, FGC14115 *, FGC14124-, FGC14126-, FGC14934-, FGC14951-, FGC17099-, FGC17102-, FGC17112-, FGC17114-, FGC20556-, FGC20747-, FGC20748-, FGC20755-, FGC20761-, FGC20764-, FGC20767-, FGC20816-, FGC21115-, FGC21124-, FGC21129-, FGC23066-, FGC23071-, FGC23074-, FGC23079-, FGC23083-, FGC30918-, FGC30962-, FGC30964-, FGC30993-, FGC30994-, FGC31068-, FGC8127-, L165-, L176-, L21-, L617-, L881-, M153-, M222-, M225-, M269+, M65-, M756-, P312+, P312+, PH133-, PH2047-, S1041-, S400-, S7432-, SK2109-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Y13115-, Y14084-, Y14468-, Y14469-, Y15636-, Y15637-, Y15639-, Y15924-, Y15926-, Y16018-, Y16863-, Y17221-, Y17446-, Y17787-, Y4865-, Y4867-, Y5058-, Y5072-, Y5077-, Y6949-, Y6951-, Y7363-, Y7364-, YP4295-, Z1513-, Z1899-, Z195-, Z196-, Z196-, Z198 *, Z209-, Z20907-, Z220-, Z223-, Z225-, Z226-, Z229-, Z2543-, Z2545-, Z2547-, Z2549 *, Z2556-, Z2560-, Z2563-, Z2564-, Z2566-, Z2567-, Z2571-, Z2573-, Z268-, Z274-, Z296-, Z29614-, Z29624-, Z29875-, Z29878-, Z29884-, Z32156-, Z32164-, Z34609-, Z37492-, ZZ12_1+, ZZ12_2-, ZZ19_1+, ZZ20_1-. So, that means I'm zz 19-1 positive. Can anyone help me please with "No call or heterozygous call" for * results like A6104 * and the others. I'm from flemish ancestry.
cheers
ximo.

palamede
03-30-2016, 08:27 PM
Hi all I have just received my snp Terminal from FTDNA DF 27 pack, here is my results:A2145-, A2146-, A431-, A432-, A433-, A434-, A4658-, A4659-, A4670-, A6104 *, A6456-, A6458-, A7014-, A7380-, A7385-, BY2285-, BY3232-, BY3233-, BY3235-, BY3286-, BY3287-, BY3288-, BY3289-, BY3290-, BY3291-, BY3292-, BY3327-, BY3328-, BY3329-, BY3330-, BY3331 *, BY3332-, BY653-, BY834-, CTS1090-, CTS11567-, CTS1643-, CTS416-, CTS5885-, CTS6578-, CTS7768-, CTS9952-, DF17-, DF19-, DF27+, DF27+, DF79-, DF81-, DF83-, DF83-, DF84-, FGC11369-, FGC11414-, FGC11419-, FGC13109-, FGC13110 *, FGC13125-, FGC14113-, FGC14114-, FGC14115 *, FGC14124-, FGC14126-, FGC14934-, FGC14951-, FGC17099-, FGC17102-, FGC17112-, FGC17114-, FGC20556-, FGC20747-, FGC20748-, FGC20755-, FGC20761-, FGC20764-, FGC20767-, FGC20816-, FGC21115-, FGC21124-, FGC21129-, FGC23066-, FGC23071-, FGC23074-, FGC23079-, FGC23083-, FGC30918-, FGC30962-, FGC30964-, FGC30993-, FGC30994-, FGC31068-, FGC8127-, L165-, L176-, L21-, L617-, L881-, M153-, M222-, M225-, M269+, M65-, M756-, P312+, P312+, PH133-, PH2047-, S1041-, S400-, S7432-, SK2109-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Y13115-, Y14084-, Y14468-, Y14469-, Y15636-, Y15637-, Y15639-, Y15924-, Y15926-, Y16018-, Y16863-, Y17221-, Y17446-, Y17787-, Y4865-, Y4867-, Y5058-, Y5072-, Y5077-, Y6949-, Y6951-, Y7363-, Y7364-, YP4295-, Z1513-, Z1899-, Z195-, Z196-, Z196-, Z198 *, Z209-, Z20907-, Z220-, Z223-, Z225-, Z226-, Z229-, Z2543-, Z2545-, Z2547-, Z2549 *, Z2556-, Z2560-, Z2563-, Z2564-, Z2566-, Z2567-, Z2571-, Z2573-, Z268-, Z274-, Z296-, Z29614-, Z29624-, Z29875-, Z29878-, Z29884-, Z32156-, Z32164-, Z34609-, Z37492-, ZZ12_1+, ZZ12_2-, ZZ19_1+, ZZ20_1-. So, that means I'm zz 19-1 positive. Can anyone help me please with "No call or heterozygous call" for * results like A6104 * and the others. I'm from flemish ancestry.
cheers
ximo.

You are ZZ19_1+ZZ20_1- while ZZ19 and ZZ20 are in the same node for the following trees with 2 branches below . you are Z34609-, the first branch and there is no test for the second branch Z31644+, FGC40707+, but below in ths branch you are Z37492-,PH2047-,FGC13109-,BY2285-,A2146- (negative for 4 sub-branches it remains 2 or 3 sub-branches in ytree of Alex Williamson.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31
https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/home/phylogenetic-tree

ZZ19 and ZZ20 are SNPs in a palindromic area, and their tests are more complicate than other SNPs. If the result is confirmed, you would be in a new branch

Maybe you should send your result file to
Alex Williamson
E-mail: scotsgenealogy (at) gmail.com
http://www.ytree.net/

razyn
03-30-2016, 09:46 PM
Can anyone help me please with "No call or heterozygous call" for * results like A6104 * and the others. I'm from flemish ancestry.
cheers
ximo.
In general, heterozygous calls are hard to resolve, may need more reads of the given site than the SNP pack reports, etc. In a number of cases, a heterozygous call (some reads for the ancestral form, and some for the mutation) would be the positive one, for that SNP. A sample that didn't have the mutation would produce all ancestral reads. But I don't know how many of the remaining asterisk positions in your test fall into that category; one would need to look up each one in something like Alex's Mutations Index, maybe YBrowse, or the browser available at YFull to administrators of groups.

Since you asked the same question on the DF27 Yahoo group, and Stephen has been looking them up one at a time, I haven't tried to duplicate his effort.

Pascal
01-12-2019, 10:52 AM
Hi all,
I am French, R1b1a1b1a1a2a4 (DF27>A431). Is there any interest for me to buy the DF27 SNP pack?
Not clear to me what could be found downstream A431

razyn
01-12-2019, 02:59 PM
I am French, R1b1a1b1a1a2a4 (DF27>A431). Is there any interest for me to buy the DF27 SNP pack?
Not clear to me what could be found downstream A431

I'd think not, but I don't know how you learned that you are A431 in the first place. (YSEQ, LivingDNA, 23andMe, FGC or some other test not taken at FTDNA?) Usually that level of awareness comes after a SNP pack -- or a NextGen test, such as BigY, that's already checking more possibilities than a SNP pack.

Pascal
01-13-2019, 01:19 PM
It is the result given by 23&Me, using reference human assembly build 37, it is said in the raw data file (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/assembly/GCF_000001405.13/), from a DNA sample analysis made in December 2018.

razyn
01-14-2019, 05:11 AM
A BigY test at FTDNA (or other NextGen sequencing of -- or including -- the Y chromosome) might well reveal some new structure below A431. France hasn't been covered very well by such testing, so far. I doubt if the basic DF27 SNP Pack would tell you much that you don't already know -- although the version of your chip test at 23andMe is more significant than the fact that they use build 37. (Dec. 2018 would, I believe, be v. 5, and better than the older versions. ArmandoR1b is the expert on that, and he has posted on this thread.)

Here is some structure that's already been found, below A431. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=217&star=false

Most of it is not tested for, on the DF27 SNP Pack. It, or something that's not yet on it, would be found with the BigY, or with some other companies' tests of similarly deep coverage. FGC now offers a "long read" product that theoretically will open a lot of new possibilities; but at first there won't be many matches to be had, since extant databases have not been reading that way. Sometimes, pioneers make the most exciting leaps forward. And sometimes they die of thirst in the desert.

Pascal
01-14-2019, 06:03 PM
Thank you razyn, I do confirm that it comes from a v5 version. In fact I had found the Ytree phylogenic tree below A431, which is not the same than on YSEQ (for instance), which let me think that it is the really beginning of downstream tests on this branch. For other DF27>A431 descendants' information, I would like to add that I know my genealogy til about 1580 as well as my patrilineal origin til about 1100 (my surname is a toponym, situated not far from the nest of the first holders of the name ; it is uncommon enough to attest that all the people who hold it have the same ancestor, living in the Poitou region about 900-1000 years ago ; if this can help to elucidate/reject some theories about DF27>S250>..., I would be happy too share evidences even if I am aware of that there is still a gap of 3000 years to fill in).

razyn
01-14-2019, 06:37 PM
I looked up what SNPs are tested by FTDNA's current DF27 SNP Pack. You can search for the various known mutations below A431 (e.g. at the ytree link in my last post; or at YFull). It's likely that there are a few others identified in results that haven't been made available to Alex Williamson (for the Big Tree, at ytree dot net). Some mutations may have been seen only once, in which case Alex doesn't display them (until there's a match in a second sample). FTDNA, YSEQ, FGC, YFull and ISOGG all treat the issue of what constitutes a new "branch" in slightly different ways. The very newest discoveries, or those not confirmed in FTDNA's data from their tested clients, aren't going to be on a SNP Pack, anyhow. Those are updated very infrequently.

R1b - DF27 SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
P312, Z195, Z274, Z220, Z268, CTS7768, Z229, Z225, CTS11567, Z223, Z226, DF27, A4670, DF17, DF81, DF83, FGC20761, L617, L881, Y5058, Z198, Z209, Z2573, Z296, BY653, BY3232, Y15924, BY3233, BY3235, A2145, A2146, A431, A432, A434, A4658, A4659, ZZ19_1, ZZ12_1, BY2285, BY834, CTS1090, CTS1643, CTS416, CTS5885, CTS6578, CTS9952, DF79, DF84, Z37492, Z34609, Z32156, Z29884, FGC11369, FGC11414, FGC11419, FGC13109, FGC14113, FGC14114, FGC14115, FGC14124, FGC14126, FGC14934, FGC14951, FGC17099, FGC17102, FGC20747, FGC20748, FGC20755, FGC20764, FGC20816, FGC21115, FGC21124, FGC23066, FGC23079, FGC23083, FGC30918, FGC30964, FGC30993, FGC30994, FGC31068, Z29878, Z29875, Z29624, Z29614, M756, PH2047, S1041, SK2109, Y13115, Y14468, Y14469, Y15636, Z2571, Z2566, Z2564, Z2563, Y15637, Y15639, Y15926, Y4865, Y4867, Z2560, Y5077, Y6949, Y6951, Y7363, YP4295, Z1513, Z1899, Z196, Z2547, Z2545, A7385, Z20907, Y17221, FGC21129, BY3287, BY3288, BY3289, BY3290, BY3291, BY3292, FGC13125, FGC17114, Z2567, FGC20556, A433, Y14084, Y5072, A6456, Y17446, FGC23074, Z2556, Y16018, PH133, Z2543, S7432, FGC30962, A7014, Y17787, A7380, FGC17112, Z32164, A6458, Y16863, FGC20767, Y7364, FGC23071, BY3327, BY3328, BY3329, BY3330, BY3331, BY3332

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
ZZ20_1, ZZ12_2, FGC13110, FGC8127, M225, BY3286, S400
______________

Just for the record, I no longer run the big DF27 project for FTDNA, Lucas McCaw does. (I'm too old to crunch massive data on a daily basis; I'm lucky to remember my grocery list.) But I did run it for the first four years, 2013-17, including when FTDNA's SNP packs were introduced.

There may be a useful A431 group somewhere, a few guys from that side of DF27 were very interested for a while. Mher Ishkhanian in Armenia is one, Doug Thornton in VA is another. One might run into them on Facebook ISOGG or P312 groups, or maybe some Russian site loosely attached to YFull (or Semargl). I don't recall any A431s who are ancestrally French, and active on forums I've followed. But my recall is imperfect.

Edit: Mher mentioned a match whose ancestry, at least, is French: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3218-Draft-DF27-section-in-Celts-book&p=250006&viewfull=1#post250006