PDA

View Full Version : Celtic from the West



Pages : 1 [2]

Gravetto-Danubian
09-16-2016, 02:32 PM
The Most Recent Common Ancestor for all of P311 was a single individual. That equates to looking for a needle in the haystack during the Early Bronze Age.



One individual seems pretty unlikely, at least as far as the EBA is concerned (that's 2200 BC), or even the Copper Age, for that matter.
Mr P311 was one of several to many other, P311 that expanded into WE. It 's just that he happens to the the TMRCA.
(I.e. it could be networks of 25 - 50 related men initially, and by the EBA, we are talking about 20 men per settlement, hundreds/ thousands across Europe).

jdean
09-16-2016, 02:35 PM
There is something familiar about the writing style and especially the choice of content.

Last I heard dartraighe was arguing African's descended from Europeans but until mouse posted on that subject I was thinking the same thing : )

ArmandoR1b
09-16-2016, 02:54 PM
Possibly but I don't think so, maybe a cousin ?

I think it is him.


There is something familiar about the writing style and especially the choice of content.

There is way too much in common between mouse, dartraighe, 1792, and the other username he used here.



Last I heard dartraighe was arguing African's descended from Europeans but until mouse posted on that subject I was thinking the same thing : )
Not when he posted as 1798 on FTDNA forums. He would write exactly what he is writing here.

TigerMW
09-16-2016, 02:55 PM
One individual seems pretty unlikely, at least as far as the EBA is concerned (that's 2200 BC), or even the Copper Age, for that matter.
Mr P311 was one of several to many other, P311 that expanded into WE. It 's just that he happens to the the TMRCA.
(I.e. it could be networks of 25 - 50 related men initially, and by the EBA, we are talking about 20 men per settlement, hundreds/ thousands across Europe).

The P311 MRCA was a single man, by definition. That does not mean P311 started in this man or that there weren't other P311 men around at the time. In that regards, I agree that other P311 folks could have been around who's lineages are extinct. FTDNA has P311 as downstream of P310 and L11 so there are results somewhere that reflect this so I think it is still going to be stroke of luck to find a P311* ancient DNA skeleton.

I think we have to be looking for the whole family... L51+ P310-, P311*- to go with P312* and U106* as well as some of the other odds and ends like ZZ11*.

Dubhthach
09-16-2016, 03:12 PM
The Rathlin Island men left no Y descendants. Their autosomal dna profile is similar to modern western Europeans. It does not matter which group spread the Indo-European language. The reality is that the Irish people adapted it. That is what the autosomal dna is showing all of us.

You mean they haven't left descendants who have done BigY. I think it's too early to claim that there are no modern Y-DNA descendants of them. Of course given the fact that lineages daughter out we shouldn't be too surprise if their lineage (well the DF21+ confirmed one) might have daughter out in last ~4,000 years

jdean
09-16-2016, 04:12 PM
Last I heard dartraighe was arguing African's descended from Europeans but until mouse posted on that subject I was thinking the same thing : )

Not when he posted as 1792 on FTDNA forums. He would write exactly what he is writing here.

Your probably right, to be honest his argument was the usual incoherent gibberish but at the time I got the impression he was trying to prove everybody descended from the original inhabitants of NW Europe, including Africans.

Heber
09-16-2016, 04:52 PM
BEAKDNA. Beaker origins: Testing the hypothesis of late Neolithic dispersals from Iberia using both ancient and contemporary mitochondrial genomes
Research
The last few years have seen a revolution in both ancient DNA (aDNA) studies (palaeogenomics) and genomics due to the introduction of next-generation sequencing (NGS) methods. This opens up many questions concerning possible human dispersals in the archaeological record that were previously inaccessible to archaeogenetics, the application of molecular population genetics to studying the human past. In many ways, this unprecedented capacity to extract information on the human past, making it possible to access genetic data from an individual that lived thousands of years ago, has brought closer together the fields of archaeology and archaeogenetics. A realistic co-dependence is seriously emerging in the last few years based on the capacity to extract genetic information from human remains from well-defined archaeological contexts. In this project, we bring together an inter-disciplinary team of leading archaeologists, linguists and archaeogeneticists to tackle one of the major questions in European prehistory, the long-standing issue of the spread of the maritime Bell Beaker package, copper-working and possibly also Celtic languages in western and central Europe, from a putative common source in Iberia. Whether the Beaker culture spread was a demographic event with dispersal of people or mainly a cultural dispersal among indigenous people through interaction networks is one of the most debated issues in current European archaeology. We will address this question by the study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of both present-day samples and Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age human skeletal remains from Iberia and Britain. We will perform the largest sampling of Late Neolithic/Early Bronze human remains (with and without Beaker goods) from Iberia and Britain to date in terms of mtDNA (including whole genomes and shorter sequences complemented by coding-region SNPs for enhanced phylogenetic resolution). This should be able to provide us with a clear picture of the maternal line of descent of the population in that time period and particularly the differences between the “Beaker folk” and other people in regions under study and the observation or not of a common ancestry of Beaker associated remains.

Reference: PTDC/EPH-ARQ/4164/2014

date starting/end: 2016-2018

PI: Pedro Soares

"Thanks for your interest Gerard. Yes we will try Y and NGS if possible. mtDNA is usually better preserved in old samples, but if the samples permit it we will go further."

rms2
09-16-2016, 05:26 PM
The Rathlin Island men left no Y descendants.

Really? And you know that how?



Their autosomal dna profile is similar to modern western Europeans.

I would word that this way: the autosomal dna of modern western Europeans is similar to that of the Rathlin Island skeletons, except the Rathlin Island guys were more steppe-like.

The reason for the resemblance is that men like the Rathlin Islanders were among the ancestors of modern western Europeans, not because the Rathlin Islanders themselves were descended from western Europeans.



It does not matter which group spread the Indo-European language.

Yes, it does. Inquiring minds want to know, and a lot of ink is spilled on the subject.



The reality is that the Irish people adapted it.

The reality is that the Irish wouldn't be the Irish without it.



That is what the autosomal dna is showing all of us.

How is the autosomal dna showing all of us the Irish "adapted" Indo-European, whatever that means?

I think it has shown us that steppe ancestry is a big part of the western European heritage, and Ireland got a healthy dose of it.

rms2
09-16-2016, 05:33 PM
I think it is him . . .

I agree.

mouse
09-16-2016, 05:33 PM
Really? And you know that how?



I would word that this way: the autosomal dna of modern western Europeans is similar to that of the Rathlin Island skeletons, except the Rathlin Island guys were more steppe-like.

The reason for the resemblance is that men like the Rathlin Islanders were among the ancestors of modern western Europeans, not because the Rathlin Islanders themselves were descended from western Europeans.



Yes, it does. Inquiring minds want to know, and a lot of ink is spilled on the subject.



The reality is that the Irish wouldn't be the Irish without it.



How is the autosomal dna showing all of us the Irish "adapted" Indo-European, whatever that means?

I think it has shown us that steppe ancestry is a big part of the western European heritage, and Ireland got a healthy dose of it.

I don't think that 16% ANE is a lot of Steppe ancestry. Prof Bradley explained that the Rathlin individuals were not identical to modern populations, adding that further work was required to understand how regional diversity came about in Celtic groups.

David Mc
09-16-2016, 05:56 PM
I agree.

The fact that he hasn't denied it suggests that this is the case.

vettor
09-16-2016, 06:31 PM
Are you not splitting hairs here?
L21 males were not the only ones speaking a celtic language, but they formed the big majority and so - as they are males and the "winner" tends to pass its haplos - we can suggest at least that they were too the majority among the celtic languages first bearers into the Isles if not on the continent, no? Not sure, but a good hypothesis for work. I suppose in fact the celtic or rather proto-celtic more numerous bearers were P310 sons of all sort (so also U152 and others). Were they the first I-E speakers in East or only indoeuropeanized folks? I don't know yet. But in West there is some chance. I reason by great numbers, not by exceptional individual cases.

Clearly we are not serious in associating a language with a haplogroup marker !

If as stated lepontic is the oldest celtic marker
Celtic divided into various branches:

Lepontic, the oldest attested Celtic language (from the 6th century BC).[45] Anciently spoken in Switzerland and in Northern-Central Italy,

And This Lepontic is stated that it came via south-germany ....and .........we have haplogroup I2a found in the areas of lepontic ( north-Italy) and ancient swiss samples , associated with Bichon and Remendello in north-central Italy ..........then clearly the association should be I2a ( it's western branch ) is the original celtic marker and not R1b

vettor
09-16-2016, 06:36 PM
The fact that he hasn't denied it suggests that this is the case.

Just ask the person in question.........if he or she has integrity, they will answer truthfully

alan
09-16-2016, 10:38 PM
I agree with everything you say Jean, apart from the one relatively minor but important detail, and its probably semantics.

The idea that "Celtic" per se spread with BB is simply impossible for several reasons, and it is somewhat Celto-centrist by design.

First of all: linguists generally attribute the terminus post quem for the break up of proto-Celtic to some time in the second millenium. We know the La Tene model is out, so we don't even need to speak of it, it is simply far too late. The similarity of Celtic, aspects of their shared vocabulary & their cultural chronology, as well as the need for Celtic's influence on Germanic (which only really came into existance 500 BC, placing pre-Germanic to late M2), all point to the mid to late Bronze Age. I don't think this has ever really been debated much by linguists.

Then we have to remember the existence of non-Celtic western European languages (not including Germanic), like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venedic, not to mention, Italic, which all must also have come with Beaker, as per the model.
So quite obviously, BB can only be "early, western PIE", or pre-Celto-Italo-Liguro-Lusitano-Venedic, or whatever we might want to call it . At such an early juncture (2400 - 2000 BC), this language is basically just late dialectical Indo-European. Language takes time to differentiate and 'split', especially in these early IE groups who were obviously mobile and kept back n forth contacts with each other, which would have only retarded language differentiation further.

Moreover, I contend that this 'early western PIE" was still limited to the Rhine - Danube, and its outposts in Britain & Ireland. The steppe admixture hadn't really moved to Iberia or Italy; thus the proto-Italics had not even split off, until after c. 2200 BC. The break-up of western PIE this took place after 2000 BC, marking the beginning of a concerted development toward proto-Celtic, followed several hundred years later with the a splitting of proto-Celtic itself, where exactly is a secondary concern of mine. The expansion of this Celtic propper over earlier IE dialects in Britain could have been afforded by a few people- women, traders, royal patronage, families, etc, hence keeping it mostly L21 composition, and given that these newcomers were from a similar stock, the autosomal make up is unchanged.

That isnt far off my feelings. However, the huge area in which non-Germanic west IE or Celto-Italic covered gives a lot of space for divergence into dialects and commencing of shifts towards Celtic from an early period. The beaker phenomenon was far from uniform and spread very wide so its hard to say the where and when of linguistic development.

I happen to agree with you though that I firmly believe that the arrival of P312 and steppe genes into Italy and Spain will turn out to be at the very end of the beaker period. So on that basis I see the other Celto-Italic dialects we find in southern Europe in early history as being in central Europe until little before 2000BC. However, that doesnt mean shifts to Celtic could not have preceded 2000BC especially if we dont know where they occurred.

In general though I see the shifts to Celtic as minor enough to have been spread by elite emulation within an interaction zone. The origin and direction of spread of the shifts would be very hard to determine. My most favoured way of understanding how Celtic shifts could have been in both central Europe and the north Atlantic c. 2000BC is through aerial spread of elite dialects in the lattice of interaction of cultures of which Wessex, Unetice and Armorican dagger are the most famous but which include a much larger array of cultures in between in the isles, along the southern English channel to the Rhine. These areas essentially remain interacting throughout the Bronze Age so the exact timing of each shift would be hard to determine. I see Iberia as essentially isolated from this interaction lattice from perhaps 2200BC for 1000 years and highly unlikely to have shared in linguistic innovations in the north Atlantic and central Europe throughout that period. I think that is demonstrated by the late survival of Lusitanian type dialects throughout Atlantic Iberia.

alan
09-16-2016, 10:40 PM
I don't think that 16% ANE is a lot of Steppe ancestry. Prof Bradley explained that the Rathlin individuals were not identical to modern populations, adding that further work was required to understand how regional diversity came about in Celtic groups.

16% is only the ANE part of the steppe ancestry. The overall steppe ancestry required to transplant 16% ANE must be twice that if not more.

alan
09-16-2016, 11:18 PM
I am going to remain open on what Y DNA flowed through Corded Ware. Pre-Germanic languages may have sprung from Corded Ware and Corded Ware was lengthy in time and huge in territory. There is a lot that could have happened we don't understand.

We also have the fission/fusion (some say reflux) events at the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware interaction zones.

YFull estimates the TMRCA of the L151, L11, P310, P311 block as 4900 ybp or about 2900 BC. This about the time that the Corded Ware culture appeared.

The Most Recent Common Ancestor for all of P311 was a single individual. That equates to looking for a needle in the haystack during the Early Bronze Age.

Now, it must considered that this single individual must have had some logistical support in order for his descendants to have diversified into so many geographies so quickly. This means it is not quite so difficult as the needle in the haystack.

Where do we think L51+ P311- types originated?

I have often said people waiting for an L51xL11 to turn up will probably be waiting till hell freezes over. It doesnt seem to have expanded much and L51 did very little until L11. It may have been a bare survival tiny lineage for vast nos of centuries. Chances of finding a pre-L11 L51xL11 guy are probably laughably remote.

However it does appear that from L11 onwards there was soon rapid expansion. That should be a lot easier to pick up in ancient DNA. Well we have of course already found P312, U106 and U152 in the period 2300-1900BC in a small sample. The real trick if L11 dates back to 2900BC is to find some people from the first 3 or 4 centuries of its existence i.e. before beaker was known in central Europe. Its either going to be located in pre-central European beaker in Iberia (I dont think it will) or in a pre-beaker culture in central Europe.

As to Corded Ware, I dont think it can be ruled out yet as a P312 vector. We already have an example whereby U106 ended up in a CW related group in Scandinavia even though this seems v atypical. This means its not impossible other lineages were present in CW, including P312 or an L11 ancestor of P312. There are simply not enough datapoints to rule anything out. It still stands out as the only clearcut example of a culture which has been proven to genetically link eastern Europe to lands as far west as the Rhine and Switzerland. No other culture is widely agreed to create that link and of course CW covers almost all of northern and north-central Europe from Ukraine and the Baltic to the Rhine so its kind of hard to ignore. Its also the culture with the largest overlap with beaker - from the Carpathians to the Rhine. So although beaker genetically doesnt not seem to correspond with 'typical CW' at all, neither does U106 in CW battle axe culture in Scandinavia.

Another question is are central European beaker people an ethnic group or an aloof and perhaps inbred subset of specialists belonging to another culture? I dont know.

I am taken by the idea that they were a specialist group of horse riding traders who were aloof from nearby CW populations. I also wonder if they were horse riding metal specialists who were already operating and supplying CW groups for a few centuries before beaker pottery arrived in central Europe. That doesnt tell us anything about their origins but it would imply the P312 horse riding metal traders could have had a pre-beaker existence doing exactly the same function. Some papers have shown that corded ware metallurgy was identical to beaker except in style preferences. So were the P312 groups in pre-beaker times (in central European terms pre-2500BC) doing exactly the same role for the CW peoples? That doesnt mean the pre-beaker P312 specialists were CW people themselves. Another clue might be that in pre-beaker times the metals used in CW culture were mostly from Carpathian ores. So perhaps before beaker arrived in C Europe, the P312 lines were specialist horsemen traders who distributed this Carpathian metal throughout the CW cultural area. The key to their origin is probably the use of the horse for riding IMO. Unfortunately this is notoriously rare to be easily identifiable.

rms2
09-16-2016, 11:20 PM
Just ask the person in question.........if he or she has integrity, they will answer truthfully

No, he won't. He's been banned at least twice already.

sktibo
09-16-2016, 11:55 PM
Please forgive me if this no longer applies to the discussion, but for what it's worth:

I was playing around with the Rathlin Islander's DNA on gedmatch and the results were pretty scary close to my own kit (v2 k15) :

1 Atlantic 32.46
2 North_Sea 30.18
3 Baltic 13.1
4 West_Med 9.24
5 Eastern_Euro 6
6 West_Asian 4.27
7 Amerindian 2.22
8 Siberian 1.06
9 Southeast_Asian 0.8

Notably, the Rathlin Islander's Atlantic score of 32.45 vs mine of 32.46... I'd say that's pretty close to exact, and it's the primary component for both of us. The Baltic isn't far off as well as we have a difference of 0.06.
The thing is (unfortunately in my case, as I admire Gaelic culture above all others) running some of the pure-bred Irish folks' kits on here (Thank you for letting me BTW) shows that I'm pretty far off from them. Therefore, this might indicate that this fellow didn't really resemble the later Irish peoples.

Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert on any of this, and this post may be total bunk. But I thought there was a chance it may be interesting or useful so I've decided to post it here.

Jessie
09-17-2016, 06:35 AM
Please forgive me if this no longer applies to the discussion, but for what it's worth:

I was playing around with the Rathlin Islander's DNA on gedmatch and the results were pretty scary close to my own kit (v2 k15) :

1 Atlantic 32.46
2 North_Sea 30.18
3 Baltic 13.1
4 West_Med 9.24
5 Eastern_Euro 6
6 West_Asian 4.27
7 Amerindian 2.22
8 Siberian 1.06
9 Southeast_Asian 0.8

Notably, the Rathlin Islander's Atlantic score of 32.45 vs mine of 32.46... I'd say that's pretty close to exact, and it's the primary component for both of us. The Baltic isn't far off as well as we have a difference of 0.06.
The thing is (unfortunately in my case, as I admire Gaelic culture above all others) running some of the pure-bred Irish folks' kits on here (Thank you for letting me BTW) shows that I'm pretty far off from them. Therefore, this might indicate that this fellow didn't really resemble the later Irish peoples.

Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert on any of this, and this post may be total bunk. But I thought there was a chance it may be interesting or useful so I've decided to post it here.

I haven't looked at the Gedmatch results too closely but Rathlin definitely is most closely related to the modern day populations of Insular Celtic people. Here are the modern populations that share the most haplotypes with Rathlin. What I find interesting is that Germany/Austria and France are above England also the distance of the Basque with Syrians, Turkish and Chuvash above them.

Scottish 36.512
Ireland 36.313
Welsh 35.745
GermanyAustria 33.658
French 32.299
English 32.213
Norwegian 31.425
Orcadian 30.072
Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613
Hungarian 28.995
Belorussian 28.418
Polish 26.957
NorthItalian 27.829
Bulgarian 26.21
SouthItalian 26.127
Russian 25.537
Lithuanian 25.067
Greek 24.341
Syrian 23.896
Turkish 23.886
Chuvash 23.865
Basque 23.824

Also Rathlin's K15 Mixed Mode is this which is similar to modern day Irish results.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

Dubhthach
09-17-2016, 07:18 AM
I haven't looked at the Gedmatch results too closely but Rathlin definitely is most closely related to the modern day populations of Insular Celtic people. Here are the modern populations that share the most haplotypes with Rathlin. What I find interesting is that Germany/Austria and France are above England also the distance of the Basque with Syrians, Turkish and Chuvash above them.

Scottish 36.512
Ireland 36.313
Welsh 35.745
GermanyAustria 33.658
French 32.299
English 32.213
Norwegian 31.425
Orcadian 30.072
Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613
Hungarian 28.995
Belorussian 28.418
Polish 26.957
NorthItalian 27.829
Bulgarian 26.21
SouthItalian 26.127
Russian 25.537
Lithuanian 25.067
Greek 24.341
Syrian 23.896
Turkish 23.886
Chuvash 23.865
Basque 23.824

Also Rathlin's K15 Mixed Mode is this which is similar to modern day Irish results.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

The mix-mode run basically implies that Rathlin sample was more "east shifted" than modern Irish comparison. Of course we have to remember that current Irish population has had 4k years to undergo genetic drift from Rathlin. That and we assume that eventually we saw admixture with pre-existing population.

I always use the comparison of Latin America, modern Mexican's and Brazilians are only product of about 500 years of admixture and recombination. In comparison modern Irish are basically result of 4-5,000 years of admixture/recombination. On such a timescale eventually everyone gets somewhat even distribution of ancestral components across the population.

What we really need is aDNA from late Iron age/Early medieval period to help give us a benchmark of Irish population before 1169. The Ballyhanna graveyard discovered in 2003 in Donegal might provide interesting data point, as it was contuinous used for 600-800 years and contained close on 1,200 remains:

http://wordwellbooks.com/Donegal

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/news/204204/Ballyhanna-reveals-new-insights-into-the.html

mouse
09-17-2016, 09:33 AM
You mean they haven't left descendants who have done BigY. I think it's too early to claim that there are no modern Y-DNA descendants of them. Of course given the fact that lineages daughter out we shouldn't be too surprise if their lineage (well the DF21+ confirmed one) might have daughter out in last ~4,000 years

I should have said that none of the DF21 tested so far have no connection to the Rathlin Islander. I would love to see someone that is tested today connected to any one of the ancients. The Big Y SNPs are not all good quality because some of mine have been rejected by Thomas Khran. It cost one dollar per SNP to find this out.

avalon
09-17-2016, 11:09 AM
The mix-mode run basically implies that Rathlin sample was more "east shifted" than modern Irish comparison. Of course we have to remember that current Irish population has had 4k years to undergo genetic drift from Rathlin. That and we assume that eventually we saw admixture with pre-existing population.

I always use the comparison of Latin America, modern Mexican's and Brazilians are only product of about 500 years of admixture and recombination. In comparison modern Irish are basically result of 4-5,000 years of admixture/recombination. On such a timescale eventually everyone gets somewhat even distribution of ancestral components across the population.

What we really need is aDNA from late Iron age/Early medieval period to help give us a benchmark of Irish population before 1169. The Ballyhanna graveyard discovered in 2003 in Donegal might provide interesting data point, as it was contuinous used for 600-800 years and contained close on 1,200 remains:


Yep, one thing I noticed from the PCA (Cassidy et al) was that actually it was a Hungarian Bronze Age individual that was a closer match to modern British Isles samples rather than the Rathlin individials who were slightly more Eastern Europe shifted.

From a Welsh perspective the other intriguing point was the haplotype-based affinity between Hungarian Bronze age and Welsh.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F1.large.jpg

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg

Gravetto-Danubian
09-17-2016, 11:15 AM
Yep, one thing I noticed from the PCA (Cassidy et al) was that actually it was a Hungarian Bronze Age individual that was a closer match to modern British Isles samples rather than the Rathlin individials who were slightly more Eastern Europe shifted.

From a Welsh perspective the other intriguing point was the haplotype-based affinity between Hungarian Bronze age and Welsh.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F1.large.jpg

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg

Some of it might be projection, but otherwise that pattern is not limited to British, but virtually all "mainstream" Europeans, perhaps apart from some of the northernmost groups who retain more of the Yamnaya & CWC inheritance (eg Estonians) . This was shown by an anonymous poster on another blog through IBD analysis.

What it means is more difficult to say; but it shows subtle but important gene flow from the Carpathian basin after the copper age, during Bronze Age; probably because it was a cultural (& probably linguistic) Hub

mouse
09-17-2016, 11:44 AM
So, red is for WHG,yellow for ENF and green for ANE. The Irish BA samples have very little green which is Yamnaya related dna but the EHG seems to be the same colour as WHG. Is that right?!!!

avalon
09-17-2016, 11:59 AM
Some of it might be projection, but otherwise that pattern is not limited to British, but virtually all "mainstream" Europeans, perhaps apart from some of the northernmost groups who retain more of the Yamnaya & CWC inheritance (eg Estonians) . This was shown by an anonymous poster on another blog through IBD analysis.

What it means is more difficult to say; but it shows subtle but important gene flow from the Carpathian basin after the copper age, during Bronze Age; probably because it was a cultural (& probably linguistic) Hub

Thanks.

Just regarding the high haplotype- based affinity between Rathlin1 and modern celtic fringe people shown on that heatmap, presumably this is basically referring to R1b-L21?

Jessie
09-17-2016, 12:25 PM
Thanks.

Just regarding the high haplotype- based affinity between Rathlin1 and modern celtic fringe people shown on that heatmap, presumably this is basically referring to R1b-L21?

No it's based on autosomal dna. "The most striking feature of the haplotype sharing by the Irish Bronze Age genome is its high median donation levels to Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations (Fig. 3). In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y. The Hungarian Bronze Age genome shows more affinity with central European populations. Interestingly, for both Bronze Age genomes, the modern Basque population displays outlying low-affinity scores compared with neighboring western European samples, supporting recent findings that suggest a continuity between the Basques and Iberian Chalcolithic groups (25).

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

rms2
09-17-2016, 12:42 PM
So, red is for WHG,yellow for ENF and green for ANE. The Irish BA samples have very little green which is Yamnaya related dna but the EHG seems to be the same colour as WHG. Is that right?!!!

They had a fairly substantial level of the green component on the chart above, second only to Corded Ware in that Late Neolithic and Bronze Age section, whereas the Middle Neolithic Irish woman had zero green. So, Ireland went from zero steppe autosomal dna in the Middle Neolithic to a healthy dose of it by the Bronze Age. Looks like something happened around the same time Indo-European was introduced to Ireland.

mouse
09-17-2016, 12:45 PM
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

"First, from ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1), we examined the green Caucasus
ancestry component. We presume an ultimate source of this as
the Yamnaya where it features at a proportion of 40% of their
total ancestry. In our three Irish Bronze Age samples, it is present
at levels between 6–13%, which, when scaled up to include the
remaining 60% of Yamnaya ancestry, imply a total of 14–33%
Yamnaya ancestry and therefore 67–86% MN in the Irish Bronze
Age. Second, for each Bronze Age Irish individual, we calculated
the proportion of MN ancestry by using the ratio f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty;
X, Dai)/f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Gok2, Dai), which gave
estimates between 72 ± 4% to 74 ± 5%, implying again a substantial
Yamnaya remainder. Third, we followed the methods described in
Haak et al. (9), which use a collection of outgroup populations, to
estimate the mixture proportions of three different sources, Linearbandkeramik
(Early Neolithic; 35 ± 6%), Loschbour (WHG; 26 ±
12%), and Yamnaya (39 ± 8%), in the total Irish Bronze Age
group. These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of
∼32% Yamnaya ancestry."

rms2
09-17-2016, 12:54 PM
. . . These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of
∼32% Yamnaya ancestry."

Thanks for making my point. The Ballynahatty Middle Neolithic woman had none of it, so something changed pretty radically in Ireland between the Middle Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when both Indo-European and R1b-L21 were introduced to the island.

mouse
09-17-2016, 01:40 PM
Thanks for making my point. The Ballynahatty Middle Neolithic woman had none of it, so something changed pretty radically in Ireland between the Middle Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when both Indo-European and R1b-L21 were introduced to the island.

You can't tie autsomal dna to YDNA. There could be other YDNA groups in Ireland during the Bronze Age with more or less Yamnaya dna. The CWC are said to have 75% Yamnaya autosomal dna but they were all R1a so far. The Ballynahatty Middle Neolithic woman had a similar amount of WHG to Rathlin.

avalon
09-17-2016, 01:51 PM
No it's based on autosomal dna. "The most striking feature of the haplotype sharing by the Irish Bronze Age genome is its high median donation levels to Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations (Fig. 3). In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y. The Hungarian Bronze Age genome shows more affinity with central European populations. Interestingly, for both Bronze Age genomes, the modern Basque population displays outlying low-affinity scores compared with neighboring western European samples, supporting recent findings that suggest a continuity between the Basques and Iberian Chalcolithic groups (25).

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

Thanks. For haplotype I was just thinking in terms of uniparental markers but it's obviously more than that.

Something interesting I just read in supplementary, is that as well as with Rathlin1, modern British and Irish samples also showed highest haplotype based affinity with Loschbour (WHG). Scotland was highest at 40.362 median haplotype donation in that dataset.

This is table S14.2 in supplementay.

rms2
09-17-2016, 01:58 PM
You can't tie autsomal dna to YDNA. There could be other YDNA groups in Ireland during the Bronze Age with more or less Yamnaya dna. The CWC are said to have 75% Yamnaya autosomal dna but they were all R1a so far. The Ballynahatty Middle Neolithic woman had a similar amount of WHG to Rathlin.

Yes we can in this case, because we are able to reason and make logical inferences.

Corded Ware never made it to Ireland, where R1a is scarce. So, scratch that as a likely source of the steppe autosomal dna in the Rathlin Islanders and the modern Irish.

R1b-L21 is overwhelmingly predominant in Ireland, dates to the Bell Beaker period, was the y haplogroup of the Rathlin Islanders, and is a subclade of R1b-L23, which has already turned up in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker. German Bell Beaker has a Yamnaya-like autosomal component of ~50%, and the Rathlin Islanders show an affinity for German Bell Beaker. Their steppe component is slightly reduced to about 32% because they were descended from Bell Beaker people who had mixed with the Late Neolithic Irish population. The Late Neolithic Irish population, like the Ballynahatty woman, had zero steppe autosomal dna.

Indo-European arrived in Ireland with the Bell Beaker people, as did R1b-L21 and steppe autosomal dna. IMHO, one has to either be willfully blind or have some powerful contrary motivation not to see that.

avalon
09-17-2016, 02:06 PM
So, red is for WHG,yellow for ENF and green for ANE. The Irish BA samples have very little green which is Yamnaya related dna but the EHG seems to be the same colour as WHG. Is that right?!!!

This is true but i think the important point is that the Indo-Europeans already had ENF and WHG when they arrived in Ireland. Looks like they picked up a chunk of Neolithic farmer ancestry en route to the Isles.

mouse
09-17-2016, 03:58 PM
Yes we can in this case, because we are able to reason and make logical inferences.

Corded Ware never made it to Ireland, where R1a is scarce. So, scratch that as a likely source of the steppe autosomal dna in the Rathlin Islanders and the modern Irish.

R1b-L21 is overwhelmingly predominant in Ireland, dates to the Bell Beaker period, was the y haplogroup of the Rathlin Islanders, and is a subclade of R1b-L23, which has already turned up in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker. German Bell Beaker has a Yamnaya-like autosomal component of ~50%, and the Rathlin Islanders show an affinity for German Bell Beaker. Their steppe component is slightly reduced to about 32% because they were descended from Bell Beaker people who had mixed with the Late Neolithic Irish population. The Late Neolithic Irish population, like the Ballynahatty woman, had zero steppe autosomal dna.

Indo-European arrived in Ireland with the Bell Beaker people, as did R1b-L21 and steppe autosomal dna. IMHO, one has to either be willfully blind or have some powerful contrary motivation not to see that.

All of the modern Irish have Steppe ancestry not just those who are L21. Is that not right?

ArmandoR1b
09-17-2016, 04:22 PM
So, red is for WHG,yellow for ENF and green for ANE. The Irish BA samples have very little green which is Yamnaya related dna but the EHG seems to be the same colour as WHG. Is that right?!!!

You really miss the point about the results. Red is Hunter-Gatherer including Eastern Hunter-Gatherer.

This is what it really is per the study -

(C) A plot of ADMIXTURE ancestry components (K = 11) of these same ancient genomes.
In West and Central Europe, ancient individuals are composed almost entirely of two dominant strands of ancestry, linked to hunter–gatherer (red)
and early farmer (orange) populations, until the Late Neolithic. At this point, a third (green) Caucasus component features. Previously, this component was
only seen in ancient Steppe and Siberian populations such as the Yamnaya. The three Rathlin genomes each display this Caucasus strand of ancestry whereas
the Irish Neolithic does not.

Now take a good look at the heat maps.

Irish Neolithic Ballynahatty is closest to modern Sardinians and Iberians and they are all high in Neolithic Early European Farmer ancestry.

Irish Bronze Age Rathlin1 is closest to modern Irish per the heat map and if you look at the admixture results in C there is an obvious increase in both HG and Caucasus. Since there was a rise in Caucasus there was also a rise in EHG. Both from Yamnaya.

Since Yamnaya was R1b-M269 and Rathlin1 was R1b-DF21 but no R1b-M269 has ever been found in a Neolithic group then there is one obvious conclusion. R1b-M269 in modern Irish people comes from a group with Yamnaya related ancestry such as found in the Irish Bronze Age Rathlin1 specimen.

The evidence continues to mount against your hypothesis that R1b-M269 has been in Ireland since a long time before the Bronze Age.

ArmandoR1b
09-17-2016, 04:25 PM
All of the modern Irish have Steppe ancestry not just those who are L21. Is that not right?

lol, your consistent use over the years of rhetorical questions to try to prove your points is extremely comical. They don't work in your favor. They only prove you have a deep misunderstanding of the issue.

mouse
09-17-2016, 05:56 PM
You really miss the point about the results. Red is Hunter-Gatherer including Eastern Hunter-Gatherer.

This is what it really is per the study -

(C) A plot of ADMIXTURE ancestry components (K = 11) of these same ancient genomes.
In West and Central Europe, ancient individuals are composed almost entirely of two dominant strands of ancestry, linked to hunter–gatherer (red)
and early farmer (orange) populations, until the Late Neolithic. At this point, a third (green) Caucasus component features. Previously, this component was
only seen in ancient Steppe and Siberian populations such as the Yamnaya. The three Rathlin genomes each display this Caucasus strand of ancestry whereas
the Irish Neolithic does not.

Now take a good look at the heat maps.

Irish Neolithic Ballynahatty is closest to modern Sardinians and Iberians and they are all high in Neolithic Early European Farmer ancestry.

Irish Bronze Age Rathlin1 is closest to modern Irish per the heat map and if you look at the admixture results in C there is an obvious increase in both HG and Caucasus. Since there was a rise in Caucasus there was also a rise in EHG. Both from Yamnaya.

Since Yamnaya was R1b-M269 and Rathlin1 was R1b-DF21 but no R1b-M269 has ever been found in a Neolithic group then there is one obvious conclusion. R1b-M269 in modern Irish people comes from a group with Yamnaya related ancestry such as found in the Irish Bronze Age Rathlin1 specimen.

The evidence continues to mount against your hypothesis that R1b-M269 has been in Ireland since a long time before the Bronze Age.

I did not say that R1b was in Ireland before the BA. P312 was in its infancy according to Mike W at beginning of the BA and how would a small group of P312 males change the dna of the native Irish by 32%? The natives belonged to I2b and G males and U5, H1 and H3 females.

kevinduffy
09-17-2016, 06:39 PM
I did not say that R1b was in Ireland before the BA. P312 was in its infancy according to Mike W at beginning of the BA and how would a small group of P312 males change the dna of the native Irish by 32%? The natives belonged to I2b and G males and U5, H1 and H3 females.

What are you saying then? It seems like you are disagreeing with people just to disagree with them. Do you have a theory of your own?

kevinduffy
09-17-2016, 06:45 PM
All of the modern Irish have Steppe ancestry not just those who are L21. Is that not right?

Someone can have L21 ancestry without being L21 themselves. For example, if your maternal grandfather was L21 but your paternal grandfather was something else then you would not carry the L21 marker but would have L21 ancestry.

mouse
09-17-2016, 07:23 PM
Yep, one thing I noticed from the PCA (Cassidy et al) was that actually it was a Hungarian Bronze Age individual that was a closer match to modern British Isles samples rather than the Rathlin individials who were slightly more Eastern Europe shifted.

From a Welsh perspective the other intriguing point was the haplotype-based affinity between Hungarian Bronze age and Welsh.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F1.large.jpg

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg

I looked at the K15 first for my number population in the oracle and then these four above. My K15 shows Ireland as my number one population and that is correct. Irish Neolithic woman M427312, 5,200 ybp, ,Sardinian. Rathlin 1 M232268,4,200, ybp, North Germany. NEI F999937 7,200 ybp, Sardinian. BR2 F999933, 3,200 ybp, Austrian.

kevinduffy
09-17-2016, 07:41 PM
I don't think that 16% ANE is a lot of Steppe ancestry. Prof Bradley explained that the Rathlin individuals were not identical to modern populations, adding that further work was required to understand how regional diversity came about in Celtic groups.

But I think that Bradley was arguing that further genetic contributions were made by later migrants, not that the Rathlin individuals made no contribution to the modern Irish population.

Heber
09-17-2016, 08:10 PM
I suspect he was referring to the earlier fourth strand of European Ancestry CHG from the South Caucasus which did not appear in time for the Cassidy paper and which is described here.

http://phys.org/news/2015-11-fourth-strand-european-ancestry-hunter-gatherers.html

Professor Daniel Bradley, leader of the Trinity team, said: "This is a major new piece in the human ancestry jigsaw, the influence of which is now present within almost all populations from the European continent and many beyond....

However, the sequencing of ancient DNA recovered from two separate burials in Western Georgia - one over 13,000 years old, the other almost 10,000 years old - has enabled scientists to reveal that the Yamnaya owed half their ancestry to previously unknown and genetically distinct hunter-gatherer sources: the fourth strand....

The widespread nature of the Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry following its long isolation makes sense geographically, says Professor Ron Pinhasi, a lead senior author from University College Dublin. "The Caucasus region sits almost at a crossroads of the Eurasian landmass, with arguably the most sensible migration routes both west and east in the vicinity."

David Lordkipanidze, Director of the Georgian National Museum and co-author of the paper, said: "This is the first sequence from Georgia - I am sure soon we will get more palaeogenetic information from our rich collections of fossils."

rms2
09-17-2016, 11:53 PM
All of the modern Irish have Steppe ancestry not just those who are L21. Is that not right?

Right, but if one is really Irish, he no doubt has plenty of lines whose males were R1b-L21. Kind of hard for the Irish to avoid that.

Same for the Welsh and Scots, and, really, even for the English.

ArmandoR1b
09-18-2016, 04:31 AM
I did not say that R1b was in Ireland before the BA. P312 was in its infancy according to Mike W at beginning of the BA and how would a small group of P312 males change the dna of the native Irish by 32%? The natives belonged to I2b and G males and U5, H1 and H3 females.
It wasn't a small group of P312 males and in the group there were would have been females belonging to the same autosomal group as the P312 males.

ArmandoR1b
09-18-2016, 04:38 AM
I looked at the K15 first for my number population in the oracle and then these four above. My K15 shows Ireland as my number one population and that is correct. Irish Neolithic woman M427312, 5,200 ybp, ,Sardinian. Rathlin 1 M232268,4,200, ybp, North Germany. NEI F999937 7,200 ybp, Sardinian. BR2 F999933, 3,200 ybp, Austrian.

Rathlin 1 M232268,4,200, ybp gets North Germany as the first result because that is where the Bell Beaker P312 people were from. But Rathlin 1 M232268 still gets 3 Irish @ 9.273491 and you also conveniently leave out the details that agree with the heat maps.


Kit Num: M232268
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.413251


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 7.791201


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.791089
2 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.791201
3 La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.810342
4 Irish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.810678
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.922435
6 Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.980188
7 La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.996135
8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 8.002673
9 Danish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 8.004673
10 Danish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 8.007087
11 Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish @ 8.020887
12 Danish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.028337
13 Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 8.034504
14 Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.055216
15 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German @ 8.064316
16 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 8.069336
17 La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.069387
18 North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.080923
19 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English @ 8.087984
20 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 8.140745

mouse
09-18-2016, 07:47 AM
Rathlin 1 M232268,4,200, ybp gets North Germany as the first result because that is where the Bell Beaker P312 people were from. But Rathlin 1 M232268 still gets 3 Irish @ 9.273491 and you also conveniently leave out the details that agree with the heat maps.


Kit Num: M232268
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.413251


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 7.791201


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.791089
2 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.791201
3 La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.810342
4 Irish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.810678
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.922435
6 Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.980188
7 La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.996135
8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 8.002673
9 Danish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 8.004673
10 Danish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 8.007087
11 Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish @ 8.020887
12 Danish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.028337
13 Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 8.034504
14 Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.055216
15 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German @ 8.064316
16 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 8.069336
17 La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.069387
18 North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.080923
19 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English @ 8.087984
20 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 8.140745

La Brana is Iberian. I thought that Jean M, in her book, wrote that the Russian immigrants arrived in Iberia and the Bell Beaker spread from there to Germany and the Isles.

mouse
09-18-2016, 07:55 AM
Right, but if one is really Irish, he no doubt has plenty of lines whose males were R1b-L21. Kind of hard for the Irish to avoid that.

Same for the Welsh and Scots, and, really, even for the English.

I think that everyone agrees that the native Irish Y-line belonged to I2b and they are in the minority in Ireland today. If one is born in Ireland he or she is really Irish. I don't think BY166 was born in Ireland.

Jessie
09-18-2016, 09:18 AM
La Brana is Iberian. I thought that Jean M, in her book, wrote that the Russian immigrants arrived in Iberia and the Bell Beaker spread from there to Germany and the Isles.

La Brana is not close to any present European population today but was very northern shifted and more like Scandinavians. La Brana was also from Haplogroup C.

Dubhthach
09-18-2016, 09:23 AM
Right, but if one is really Irish, he no doubt has plenty of lines whose males were R1b-L21. Kind of hard for the Irish to avoid that.

Same for the Welsh and Scots, and, really, even for the English.

Likewise I wouldn't be surprised if I have haplogroup R-U106 or I1 in my ancestry given that my mothers surname is the most english surname of Hawkins (though present in Ireland since the 16th century) -- of course given the L21 has a pluarity even in England the Hawkins line might be L21 as well. Likewise R-DF27 or I2 probably shows up in some of other lineages if you go back far enough.

Dubhthach
09-18-2016, 09:27 AM
La Brana is Iberian. I thought that Jean M, in her book, wrote that the Russian immigrants arrived in Iberia and the Bell Beaker spread from there to Germany and the Isles.

La Brana is one of oldest WHG examples, dude makes modern Scandinavians look like they are from central Europe on PCA graphs, he was also Haplogroup C, dark skinned and had blue eyes. He's mesolithic.

Dubhthach
09-18-2016, 09:33 AM
I think that everyone agrees that the native Irish Y-line belonged to I2b and they are in the minority in Ireland today. If one is born in Ireland he or she is really Irish. I don't think BY166 was born in Ireland.

BY166 and Ireland? Sure all the BY166 that we know of is from Wales, Welsh borders and surrounding areas. Haplogroup I2 is probably linked to Mesolithic/Neolithic, though it's just as probable given La Brana that original mesolithic in Ireland had Haplogroup C. However it's also quite possible that certain types of I2 only expanded into Ireland during later periods.

Needless say a I2 man living in Ireland today is more than likely going to have male ancestors (on female lines) that were R-L21, it's side effect of L21 making up over 70% of Irish male population (as per Busby)

mouse
09-18-2016, 10:28 AM
BY166 and Ireland? Sure all the BY166 that we know of is from Wales, Welsh borders and surrounding areas. Haplogroup I2 is probably linked to Mesolithic/Neolithic, though it's just as probable given La Brana that original mesolithic in Ireland had Haplogroup C. However it's also quite possible that certain types of I2 only expanded into Ireland during later periods.

Needless say a I2 man living in Ireland today is more than likely going to have male ancestors (on female lines) that were R-L21, it's side effect of L21 making up over 70% of Irish male population (as per Busby)

You are right of course. Some of the I2b is probably more recent but I think that it is one group we could link to the Mesolithic Irish. The thing that we all don't know is when did L21 expand in Ireland. I have read that the M222 group we see today are a result of an expansion around 2000 years ago. It would not surprise me if there were more M222 people in America than in Ireland.

If we assume that 32% of the Irish genome is Yamnaya dna and that includes the 2% Y then 68% of our dna is not linked to the "Celts".



"The Y chromosome spans more than 59 million building blocks of DNA (base pairs) and represents almost 2 percent of the total DNA in cells."

ArmandoR1b
09-18-2016, 10:50 AM
La Brana is Iberian.
La Braña wasn't R1b either. The fact that the Rathlin 1 M232268 buried in Ireland about 4,200, ybp has plenty of Isles DNA and at the same time has plenty of Yamnaya related autosomal DNA along with an R1b-P312 subclade, which descends from a branch that Yamnaya descend from, and all modern Irish also have plenty of Yamnaya related DNA along with plenty of males with an R1b-P312 subclade means that the change was simultaneous.

I also went back into the thread to see what else you have said on the subject of the Y-DNA and autosomal DNA that shows an obvious connection to a Yamnaya related people. You think that there could be other YDNA groups in Ireland during the Bronze Age with more or less Yamnaya DNA but you also quoted where the study showed ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry in the Rathlin specimens. Since we know what the amount of the Yamnaya related DNA is, and it is huge, then there is obviously going to be a huge ingression of Yamnaya related Y-DNA in Ireland. Guess what that is.


I thought that Jean M, in her book, wrote that the Russian immigrants arrived in Iberia and the Bell Beaker spread from there to Germany and the Isles.

You should ask her directly what specifically she wrote.

mouse
09-18-2016, 12:12 PM
La Braña wasn't R1b either. The fact that the Rathlin 1 M232268 buried in Ireland about 4,200, ybp has plenty of Isles DNA and at the same time has plenty of Yamnaya related autosomal DNA along with an R1b-P312 subclade, which descends from a branch that Yamnaya descend from, and all modern Irish also have plenty of Yamnaya related DNA along with plenty of males with an R1b-P312 subclade means that the change was simultaneous.

I also went back into the thread to see what else you have said on the subject of the Y-DNA and autosomal DNA that shows an obvious connection to a Yamnaya related people. You think that there could be other YDNA groups in Ireland during the Bronze Age with more or less Yamnaya DNA but you also quoted where the study showed ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry in the Rathlin specimens. Since we know what the amount of the Yamnaya related DNA is, and it is huge, then there is obviously going to be a huge ingression of Yamnaya related Y-DNA in Ireland. Guess what that is.



You should ask her directly what specifically she wrote.

I did not say La Brana was R1b but the calculator shows that Rathlin 1 has matching autosomal SNPs to him. I just showed the number one population of Rathlin using K15. There is no such thing as a pure race and I am just an Irishman. I am happy to be part of the Celtic culture and language but I am a product of all the migrations that took place over the last 10,000 years. I have read Jean's book.

ArmandoR1b
09-18-2016, 01:09 PM
I did not say La Brana was R1b but the calculator shows that Rathlin 1 has matching autosomal SNPs to him.
Yes, he has matching autosomal SNPs to him but that is only a portion of his DNA. It's the other portion that matches Yamnaya in both autosomal DNA and the R1b-M269 haplogroup.


I just showed the number one population of Rathlin using K15. Yes, you did show ONLY the number one population which isn't always the correct one and you conveniently left out the rest.


There is no such thing as a pure race and I am just an Irishman. I am happy to be part of the Celtic culture and language but I am a product of all the migrations that took place over the last 10,000 years.So then we are in agreement that Yamnaya related autosomal DNA and Yamnaya related R1b-M269 entered Ireland at the same time with the same people. I'm glad that you cleared that up after all of these posts.


I have read Jean's book.So have I and you have oversimplified what she wrote and that's why you need to ask her what she wrote. You need a better understanding of it.

rms2
09-18-2016, 04:22 PM
. . .

If we assume that 32% of the Irish genome is Yamnaya dna and that includes the 2% Y then 68% of our dna is not linked to the "Celts".


"The Y chromosome spans more than 59 million building blocks of DNA (base pairs) and represents almost 2 percent of the total DNA in cells."

I'm sorry, but what you wrote above makes no sense. You are mixing apples and oranges, y-dna and autosomal dna.

Each male has a single y chromosome, which he can pass only to his sons, but he passes 22 autosomal chromosomes on to all his offspring, both girls and boys. Those 22 chromosomes, along with whichever sex chromosome, x or y, he passes along, form half of the 23 pairs of chromosomes borne by each of his children. They get the other half (23) from their mother, who also got half of hers from her father and half from her mother.

I don't know how much of the Irish genome can be attributed to the Celts, but you cannot reasonably claim that Yamnaya-like autosomal dna did not arrive in Ireland mainly with R1b-L21 simply because the y chromosome itself is only a small percentage of the genome. The y chromosome accompanied the Yamnaya-like autosomal dna, but the two were not one and the same. The Yamnaya-like autosomal dna got passed on independently of the y chromosome (especially in the case of girls), and non-R1b men could acquire it through mothers whose R1b fathers themselves or whose R1b paternal ancestors bore it to Ireland in the first place.

rms2
09-18-2016, 04:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that the native Irish Y-line belonged to I2b and they are in the minority in Ireland today. If one is born in Ireland he or she is really Irish. I don't think BY166 was born in Ireland.

I never said BY166 is Irish. I don't think it is. My father line, as far as I can tell, and based on my 111-marker and Big Y matches, is Welsh. The Irish ancestry I have comes from females on both my dad's and mom's sides of the family, but it is not unsubstantial.

I don't want to argue with you about what makes one really Irish. After all, a whole lot of ink has been spilled (and no small amount of blood) over the years on the subject of ethnic, racial, and national identity, and still people disagree. But you said all the Irish have Yamnaya-like autosomal dna and yet not all of them are R1b-L21. Apparently you intended that as some sort of argument that the men who brought R1b-L21 to Ireland therefore could not be responsible for the Yamnaya-like autosomal dna in Ireland. I responded by pointing out that if one is really Irish, he pretty obviously has a lot of lines in his pedigree whose males were R1b-L21. I guess what I meant by really Irish is someone whose family has been in Ireland for at least a few generations and whose relatives are of similar ancestry. Thus, a modern Irishman might not be R1b-L21 himself, maybe not even any kind of R1b, yet he still has plenty of male ancestors from collateral lines who were R1b-L21. It's practically inescapable, given the preponderance of R1b-L21 in Ireland. Ireland is the world's hot-hot-hotspot for L21. It would be hard to throw a rock there and not hit an L21+ guy.

mouse
09-18-2016, 05:06 PM
I never said BY166 is Irish. I don't think it is. My father line, as far as I can tell, and based on my 111-marker and Big Y matches, is Welsh. The Irish ancestry I have comes from females on both my dad's and mom's sides of the family, but it is not unsubstantial.

I don't want to argue with you about what makes one really Irish. After all, a whole lot of ink has been spilled (and no small amount of blood) over the years on the subject of ethnic, racial, and national identity, and still people disagree. But you said all the Irish have Yamnaya-like autosomal dna and yet not all of them are R1b-L21. Apparently you intended that as some sort of argument that the men who brought R1b-L21 to Ireland therefore could not be responsible for the Yamnaya-like autosomal dna in Ireland. I responded by pointing out that if one is really Irish, he pretty obviously has a lot of lines in his pedigree whose males were R1b-L21. I guess what I meant by really Irish is someone whose family has been in Ireland for at least a few generations and whose relatives are of similar ancestry. Thus, a modern Irishman might not be R1b-L21 himself, maybe not even any kind of R1b, yet he still has plenty of male ancestors from collateral lines who were R1b-L21. It's practically inescapable, given the preponderance of R1b-L21 in Ireland. Ireland is the world's hot-hot-hotspot for L21. It would be hard to throw a rock there and not hit an L21+ guy.

Did L21 originate in Ireland?

rms2
09-18-2016, 05:17 PM
Did L21 originate in Ireland?

No, IMHO it did not. YFull has it dated to about 2500 BC, and the earliest Bell Beaker graves in Ireland date to around 2300 BC, those in Britain to around 2400 BC. I think it likely that L21 is even a little older than YFull's estimate, so it could not have arisen in Ireland, unless one wants to argue that it predates Bell Beaker there.

Jean M
09-18-2016, 07:26 PM
I think we have the same ideas except you like to put all these languages into one group called Celtic and I disagree with this

No Vettor. It is not some personal quirk of mine to name a particular group of languages Celtic. That is the standand view of linguists. If you want to disagree with it, you would need a degree in linguistics and a PhD in the Celtic languages before anyone would be remotely interested.

Jean M
09-18-2016, 07:37 PM
I thought that Jean M, in her book, wrote that the Russian immigrants arrived in Iberia and the Bell Beaker spread from there to Germany and the Isles.

Russian immigrants? No. That would be a very misleading statement! :biggrin1: Russia did not exist as a country at that time. There were no Russians. Nor did Germany exist. These modern nation states are comparatively recent in the history of Europe.

mouse
09-18-2016, 07:50 PM
Russian immigrants? No. That would be a very misleading statement! :biggrin1: Russia did not exist as a country at that time. There were no Russians. Nor did Germany exist. These modern nation states are comparatively recent in the history of Europe.

Does the people who live in that region today not have dna from 4,500 years ago and the Russians not descended from them? On Page 95 of your book there is map showing the route of the earliest Indo-European and it shows movement from Iberia to southern Ireland and Cornwall. I think that is the route that the Maritime BB took to Ross Island.

alan
09-18-2016, 09:24 PM
Does the people who live in that region today not have dna from 4,500 years ago and the Russians not descended from them? On Page 95 of your book there is map showing the route of the earliest Indo-European and it shows movement from Iberia to southern Ireland and Cornwall. I think that is the route that the Maritime BB took to Ross Island.

there are no maritime beaker pottery sherds at Ross Island. There are very few from Ireland at all. There is a section on the Ross Island beaker pot in O'Briens large book on the Ross Island mine and from memory the pottery is either non-descript beaker or more of types related to Britain/the Rhine.

alan
09-18-2016, 09:39 PM
IMO when you put all of the Irish beaker characteristics together you can easily see its a relatively late arrival after different beaker groups had already met and mixed somewhere else for generations. It has both Atlantic and more Rhenish/central European aspects. The former may include aspects of metallurgy and use of megaliths. The latter includes a strangely high amount of Polypod bowls and hollow based arrowheads (rather than western type barbed and tanged ones) in Ireland for example - more than in Britain. Those both originate in central Europe. Then you have the beakers themselves that, where decorated, seem to link to Britain and the Rhine rather than maritime. So, Irish beaker looks like it arrived after the central European and Atlantic beaker aspects had already mixed elsewhere - which makes sense as Ireland was not settled by beaker people until 2400BC or after. I personally suspect Irish beaker groups originated somewhere like the Breton-Norman area where Atlantic and more eastern beaker influences bumped into each other and could have formed an appropriate mix by 2400BC.

Heber
09-18-2016, 10:52 PM
there are no maritime beaker pottery sherds at Ross Island. There are very few from Ireland at all. There is a section on the Ross Island beaker pot in O'Briens large book on the Ross Island mine and from memory the pottery is either non-descript beaker or more of types related to Britain/the Rhine.

The latest papers show a clear distribution of Atlantic Bell Beaker material in Ireland.

Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (3rd millennium BC)

Laure Salanova

The typology of the material culture, circulation of know-how, preferences regarding settlement and mobility patterns reveal a coherent Atlantic entity, in continuity with the previous periods and providing the basis of the Bronze Age Complex....

Along the Atlantic façade of Europe, a coherent Bell Beaker entity has been recognized, defining a regional identity that prefigures the Atlantic Bronze Age Complex....

However, the similarities described along the Atlantic coast, which involve the circulation of know-how and of craftsmen, could effectively demonstrate the existence of supra-regional languages, shared at least by this group of specialists....

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304925443_Behind_the_warriors_Bell_Beakers_and_ide ntities_in_Atlantic_Europe_third_millennium_BC

3. Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period.
Catriona Gibson 83

The continued use or reuse of early megalithic monuments for Beaker burials discussed in chapters 1 and 5, is the main focus for Catriona Gibson.
The evidence considered is mainly from from the Iberian Penisula, where numerous recently obtained, high quality AMS dates now reveal a recurrent sequence implying an ideological shift marked by a conspicuous and intentional transformation of the ritual landscape. In many examples, formal closure of Megalithic tombs coincides with the abandonment of enclosed settlements in the same area at the same time of intensifying exchange networks during the later 3rd millennium BC, about 400 years after the earliest Beakers in the lower Tagus.

Clear distribution of Bell Beaker graves in Megalithic context in Atlantic Europe.

Distribution of megalithic monuments in atlantic europe with evidence of reuse in the Beaker period.

Distribution of Bell Beaker sites in Ireland.

11729

11730

Heber
09-18-2016, 11:14 PM
An analysis of non metric dental variability of 1,674 Beaker samples across Europe shows a West (South) to East contribution.

Desideri J. and Besse M._2010_Swiss Bell Beaker population dynamics: eastern or southern influences ?

The work presented here is based on analysis of 1,674 individuals from five regions with Bell Beaker occupations:Switzerland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, southern France, and northern Spain. The studied samples and analysed groups are presented, respectively, in Tables 1and 2. Figure 1 presents the geographical localization of the sites.

In the context of this study, we have sought the provenance of the populational contribution at the end of the Neolithic and more specifically for the Bell Beaker inwestern Switzerland. Analysis of nonmetric dental variabil-ity has shown that a southern population contribution is clearly present in western Switzerland at the end of the Neolithic, thus confirming results of our earlier research on a regional scale that showed an external population contribution starting in the Final Neolithic and continuing during the Bell Beaker.

https://www.academia.edu/5866446/Desideri_J._and_Besse_M._2010_Swiss_Bell_Beaker_po pulation_dynamics_eastern_or_southern_influences_I n_Archaeological_and_anthropological_sciences_2

11732

Jessie
09-19-2016, 05:40 AM
This is true but i think the important point is that the Indo-Europeans already had ENF and WHG when they arrived in Ireland. Looks like they picked up a chunk of Neolithic farmer ancestry en route to the Isles.

Rathlin has middle Neolithic from Germany they don't appear to have picked up any from Ballynahatty. That's what the study says.

https://s22.postimg.io/5y9hc69ip/br2.jpg

avalon
09-19-2016, 07:39 AM
Rathlin has middle Neolithic from Germany they don't appear to have picked up any from Ballynahatty. That's what the study says.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Rathlin had already acquired his Neollithic farmer ancestry before he arrived in Ireland.

It will be interesting to see more ancientDNA from Ireland tested to see how much, if any, mixing took place between Indo-Europeans and Neolithics.

mouse
09-19-2016, 08:02 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Rathlin had already acquired his Neollithic farmer ancestry before he arrived in Ireland.

It will be interesting to see more ancientDNA from Ireland tested to see how much, if any, mixing took place between Indo-Europeans and Neolithics.

If he had German Neolithic autosomal dna then he could have got it from his mother or one of his grandmothers. If his ancestors were in Ireland for a few generations he would have dna similar to the Ballynahatty woman.

ArmandoR1b
09-19-2016, 10:10 AM
This is true but i think the important point is that the Indo-Europeans already had ENF and WHG when they arrived in Ireland. Looks like they picked up a chunk of Neolithic farmer ancestry en route to the Isles.


Rathlin has middle Neolithic from Germany they don't appear to have picked up any from Ballynahatty. That's what the study says.


Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Rathlin had already acquired his Neollithic farmer ancestry before he arrived in Ireland.

It will be interesting to see more ancientDNA from Ireland tested to see how much, if any, mixing took place between Indo-Europeans and Neolithics.

I hadn't even paid attention to that part until you guys brought it up. This is the part that explains it in more detail -

This indicates that while the Irish Bronze Age contains
a substantial amount of Middle Neolithic ancestry we find no strong evidence to suggest that the Irish
population from which Ballynahatty came was its source. It is also not likely to be identical to the
component of Middle Neolithic ancestry found in German LN/BA samples, or indeed any continental
LN/BA so far sampled.

mouse
09-19-2016, 11:49 AM
Comparing Kit F999916 (LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky) and M232268 (Rathlin1 IrelandBA)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 200 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 100 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.5 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
1 6,247,685 7,063,914 1.7 271
1 12,172,416 14,243,724 4.1 522
1 109,408,405 110,436,476 1.6 365
1 212,665,147 213,955,335 1.7 381
1 240,075,930 240,660,496 1.8 235
2 29,726,348 30,848,531 2.0 461
2 36,906,089 37,921,097 1.6 370
2 218,938,086 220,342,535 2.3 464
2 228,740,228 229,882,408 1.6 367
3 4,142,766 4,688,504 1.6 244
3 51,777,952 53,957,747 1.6 606
3 72,453,713 73,239,024 1.9 262
3 74,758,601 77,008,730 1.9 453
3 170,830,526 172,447,603 1.7 442
3 174,508,758 175,567,088 1.6 366
3 183,013,769 184,361,532 2.4 295
4 106,225,434 108,341,262 1.6 538
5 31,127,170 31,715,101 1.5 287
5 74,323,498 75,463,274 2.0 327
5 141,867,735 142,489,174 1.6 269
6 1,652,398 2,344,098 2.2 219
6 24,186,036 25,083,512 1.7 479
6 138,053,358 139,040,390 2.3 374
7 28,396,883 29,068,416 1.5 306
8 28,356,379 29,248,981 2.0 233
8 82,118,950 83,677,726 1.5 408
9 14,557,981 15,075,796 1.6 303
9 77,361,006 78,013,816 1.6 375
9 89,910,535 91,028,820 2.0 316
10 125,853 1,505,126 3.1 486
10 44,691,464 48,153,610 1.6 424
10 116,309,256 117,852,563 1.8 423
10 122,390,443 123,066,171 1.6 360
11 18,814,323 19,405,895 1.8 257
12 2,659,482 3,309,218 2.0 303
12 10,850,298 11,735,958 1.6 243
14 30,428,775 31,503,609 2.1 251
14 87,418,971 88,643,946 1.7 391
15 30,226,590 31,093,852 2.3 236
15 31,886,005 32,699,709 1.9 242
15 37,943,010 39,665,500 1.7 501
15 66,808,248 67,859,259 2.2 297
15 68,554,993 69,466,523 1.8 235
16 1,541,768 2,885,091 2.7 831
16 19,970,380 21,113,219 1.7 317
16 53,348,302 54,049,428 1.5 375
16 77,315,480 77,570,325 1.7 249
17 54,851,199 56,724,234 1.5 330
18 72,574,012 73,033,449 1.6 255
19 3,330,046 4,130,636 3.2 250
19 9,069,186 9,937,526 2.2 215
19 40,248,121 40,986,419 1.9 318
19 60,431,625 61,005,602 1.9 207
20 4,783,338 5,441,842 3.1 272
20 7,690,326 8,607,690 2.1 418
21 37,643,179 38,574,710 1.5 339
22 18,551,251 19,710,064 2.2 276
22 22,292,404 23,475,453 2.2 349
Largest segment = 4.1 cM
Total of segments > 1.5 cM = 112.1 cM
58 matching segments

910022 SNPs used for this comparison.

Jean M
09-19-2016, 03:45 PM
Does the people who live in that region today not have dna from 4,500 years ago and the Russians not descended from them?

The people who live on the European steppe today are Romanian, Moldovan, Ukrainian and Russian. They represent just the most recent of numerous re-peoplings of that region, after Russsian and other western peoples began in the Middle Ages to push back the Turks and other eastern steppe peoples, who had over-run the whole Eurasian steppe from the east. Given that the European steppe was the homeland of PIE, then anyone who lives there now and speaks any Indo-European language is liable to have some DNA from Yamnaya. But that does not mean that all of their ancestors just stayed on the steppe from then until now. Far from it.


On Page 95 of your book there is map showing the route of the earliest Indo-European

That map shows my proposals for the routes of some early Indo-Europeans. The early Indo-Europeans moved in a number of directions from the steppe. My book Blood of the Celts is simply concerned with those who eventually developed the Celtic branch.


it shows movement from Iberia to southern Ireland and Cornwall. I think that is the route that the Maritime BB took to Ross Island.

I cannot speak specifically for Ross Island, but there are indications of some movement up the Atlantic route.

vettor
09-19-2016, 05:41 PM
No Vettor. It is not some personal quirk of mine to name a particular group of languages Celtic. That is the standand view of linguists. If you want to disagree with it, you would need a degree in linguistics and a PhD in the Celtic languages before anyone would be remotely interested.

The standard view by Linguists is what I stated, that Lepontic is the oldest Pre-celtic and celtic language

Its is different to Gaulish-celtic and different to the other celtic linguist systems.

http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/kalender/arkiv_2012/celtic_spring/Lepontisch_WS_2010.pdf/

This north-italian language called Lepontic was not the same Celtic language spoken in Celtic Gordia ( anatolia) , nor was it the same as Celtic britain, nor celtic Iberia.
Even older rhaetic, camunic, magre and venetic languages use this lepontic-celtic lettering..................really by time, Lepontic learnt from these others as they seem older.

avalon
09-19-2016, 06:34 PM
I hadn't even paid attention to that part until you guys brought it up. This is the part that explains it in more detail -

This indicates that while the Irish Bronze Age contains
a substantial amount of Middle Neolithic ancestry we find no strong evidence to suggest that the Irish
population from which Ballynahatty came was its source. It is also not likely to be identical to the
component of Middle Neolithic ancestry found in German LN/BA samples, or indeed any continental
LN/BA so far sampled.

Interesting and begs the question - where did Rathlin1 acquire his Neolithic ancestry from, if not identical to LN/BA German samples. Britain? France?

ArmandoR1b
09-19-2016, 07:39 PM
Interesting and begs the question - where did Rathlin1 acquire his Neolithic ancestry from, if not identical to LN/BA German samples. Britain? France?

That's a great question.

alan
09-19-2016, 07:46 PM
Interesting and begs the question - where did Rathlin1 acquire his Neolithic ancestry from, if not identical to LN/BA German samples. Britain? France?

with such a tiny sample the genetic evidence cant really help. Its especially nightmarish to answer if the beaker people were just tiny clans who tended to marry outgroup - each time they married out half their autosomal DNA changed. I think the simple answer is many things cannot to ascertained with single samples or a very light scattering of samples with huge gaps in space and time. A number of samples from one time and place need to be looked at to characterise something. There are large numbers of Neolithic human bone samples from every part of Europe so its only the will and the funding that is stopping us from characterising the Neolithic across Europe.

The Ballynahatty sample may not even be typical. The site at Ballynahatty is a very high status site with a sequence of later Neolithic monuments from passage tomb to Henge enclosure, timber circles and other features and finds including Grooved Ware pottery. It looks like a place of exceptional importance 3000-2500BC. It has for instance been argued that henge enclosures, timber circles and grooved ware were invented in the northern isles of Scotland. The whole sequence of monuments and finds throw up two-way links with Atlantic Britain from 3000-2500BC. Ideas in ritual monuments and pottery probably spread through marriage networks sealing prestige object trade. So, there is a possibility that the Ballynahatty women isnt even local. Ballynahatty is a place which can be seen in its sequence of monuments to be a site of exceptional importance and linked into the trends of Atlantic Britain for 500 years or more. You cant conclude anything on a single burial.

avalon
09-20-2016, 06:46 AM
with such a tiny sample the genetic evidence cant really help. Its especially nightmarish to answer if the beaker people were just tiny clans who tended to marry outgroup - each time they married out half their autosomal DNA changed. I think the simple answer is many things cannot to ascertained with single samples or a very light scattering of samples with huge gaps in space and time. A number of samples from one time and place need to be looked at to characterise something. There are large numbers of Neolithic human bone samples from every part of Europe so its only the will and the funding that is stopping us from characterising the Neolithic across Europe.

The Ballynahatty sample may not even be typical. The site at Ballynahatty is a very high status site with a sequence of later Neolithic monuments from passage tomb to Henge enclosure, timber circles and other features and finds including Grooved Ware pottery. It looks like a place of exceptional importance 3000-2500BC. It has for instance been argued that henge enclosures, timber circles and grooved ware were invented in the northern isles of Scotland. The whole sequence of monuments and finds throw up two-way links with Atlantic Britain from 3000-2500BC. Ideas in ritual monuments and pottery probably spread through marriage networks sealing prestige object trade. So, there is a possibility that the Ballynahatty women isnt even local. Ballynahatty is a place which can be seen in its sequence of monuments to be a site of exceptional importance and linked into the trends of Atlantic Britain for 500 years or more. You cant conclude anything on a single burial.

Totally agree, I've always said we're going to need quite a lot of ancient DNA from the Isles and from France from all periods to sort out the finer details of prehistory.

I was interested in what you said about Irish beaker possibly originating in NW France (an area not really tested much so far). Do you think that Rathlin's ancestors arrived via this route, rather than from a more easterly direction from the Rhine and then entering SE England before heading westwards to Ireland?

alan
09-20-2016, 07:22 AM
Totally agree, I've always said we're going to need quite a lot of ancient DNA from the Isles and from France from all periods to sort out the finer details of prehistory.

I was interested in what you said about Irish beaker possibly originating in NW France (an area not really tested much so far). Do you think that Rathlin's ancestors arrived via this route, rather than from a more easterly direction from the Rhine and then entering SE England before heading westwards to Ireland?

Rathlin early Bronze Age burials came during a phase of close contact between Ireland and northern Britain when food vessels replaced beakers. So they may well not be in-situ descendants of local beaker people or even Irish beaker people. They could be part of another intrusion from Britain c. 2200BC - that is c. 200 years after the first beaker pot in Ireland. One curious thing about the food vessel phase is the regular use of single unburned burials in subterranean cists was all but unknown until the food vessel phase in Ireland but had been known in Britain in the beaker phase.That is more profound a change than a shift in pottery and seems to me very likely to have been introduced from north Britain to Ireland. Rathlin belongs to the latter phenomenon. Also worth noting that to date no beaker appears to have been found in Rathlin so that may be evidence that they were fresh settlers of the island in the food vessel phase. Rathlin of course historically was a stepping stone between Ireland and the Scottish inner Hebrides and even in the Neolithic it had an important stone axe factory of a type that reached western Scotland in numbers.

alan
09-20-2016, 07:34 AM
Totally agree, I've always said we're going to need quite a lot of ancient DNA from the Isles and from France from all periods to sort out the finer details of prehistory.

I was interested in what you said about Irish beaker possibly originating in NW France (an area not really tested much so far). Do you think that Rathlin's ancestors arrived via this route, rather than from a more easterly direction from the Rhine and then entering SE England before heading westwards to Ireland?

regarding the genes of pre-beaker Neolithic people in the isles, they may not have been uniform. Sheridan sees a number of inputs of farmers from France albeit that one from NE France was the dominant one. She also notes more localised input from points further west along the north France coast including a Breton one that went up to the Hebrides. I think the genetics of Neolithic farmers crossing from Calais could have been to some degree different from farmers crossing from Brittany given the substantial archaeological differences between the early farmers in those areas. The degree of hunter-gather absorbtion could have varied for example. Unlike central Europe, northern coastal France was settled late by farmers and there could have been greater absorbtion of hunters than the norm even before they crossed the English channel. There is no ancient DNA to prove or disprove this. My feeling is the WHG component may have been elevated even in the first settlers of the isles. WHG had started to rise in the middle Neolithic of the continent which is contemporary to the early Neolithic of the isles so the process of reemergence of WHG may have happened before farmers even reached the isles.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-20-2016, 08:00 AM
I want to know is who exactly were the Stonehenge builders ?
Presumable some Atlantic farmer types . IIRC, mostly a cremating period ?

Jean M
09-20-2016, 10:04 AM
The standard view by Linguists is what I stated, that Lepontic is the oldest Pre-celtic and celtic language. Its is different to Gaulish-celtic and different to the other celtic linguist systems.

I´m glad that you are now referring to Lepontic and Cis-Alpine Gaulish as two different Celtic languages. Hold onto that thought. The family of languages is called Celtic. Lepontic and Gaulish are Celtic languages. The Celtic language in Anatolia is called Galician, and was a variety of Gaulish.

Lepontic is not the oldest Celtic language. It is just the earliest to be recorded in writing, unless we accept as Celtic the language recorded in the southwestern Hispanic script.

Never mind about the lettering that was used to write the various languages. It is not important.

Dubhthach
09-20-2016, 11:44 AM
Lepontic is not the oldest Celtic language. It is just the earliest to be recorded in writing, unlish we accept the language recorded in the southwestern Hispanic script as Celtic.t.

Indeed, plus it's a P-Celtic language, some have argued that it was vector for /kw/ -> /p/ shift in certain Celtic languages (Lepontic, Gaulish, Brythonic). Proto-Celtic in comparison had to be "Q-Celtic"

Schrijver talks about a basic division of Celtic into "Southern" and "Northern" Branches. with Southern including both Celtiberian and Lepontic. The "Northern Branch" been made up of Gaulish, Brythonic and Goidelic (sharing innovations not found in "Southern" branch)

If that basic model is accurate, than when it came to /kw/ -> /p/ shift it's probable that this was due to contact/trade networks where it spread out perhaps from Lepontic into Gaulish and eventually Brythonic. Ireland been in middle of a "Dark age" in period 800-300BC basically missed out on how the "posh people were talking" ;)

Jean M
09-20-2016, 06:30 PM
If that basic model is accurate, than when it came to /kw/ -> /p/ shift it's probable that this was due to contact/trade networks where it spread out perhaps from Lepontic into Gaulish and eventually Brythonic.

I think the Gaulish to Brittonic part is solid. It is obvious that La Tene moved from the Continent to Britain, not the other way around. One can quibble over the means of spread i.e. how much migration was required. Maybe we shall get a clue from aDNA someday. However linguists have come up with several suggestions for the why and where of the /kw/ -> /p/ shift. Naturally they tend to favour ideas invoilving contact with a language we happen to know about. I have mentioned the idea that Koch used to favour before he was bitten by the C-from-the-W bug. Someone else fleshed it out as contact with Etruscan, which also influenced some Italic languages. It´seems as good as any other idea, and better than Koch mark 2. But who knows?

Camulogène Rix
09-28-2016, 07:37 PM
What is your opinion about the "The Celts" by Alice Roberts (BBC). I came upon it in my favourite English bookshop in Paris but I may be disappointed if I compare it with Jean's lattest book upon this subject.

Heber
09-28-2016, 07:54 PM
What is your opinion about the "The Celts" by Alice Roberts (BBC). I came upon it in my favourite English bookshop in Paris but I may be disappointed if I compare it with Jean's lattest book upon this subject.

In her own words:

https://youtu.be/qrlqhRmYuJY

And other interesting programs on the Celts:

https://youtu.be/brxu_h_pzBg

https://youtu.be/awzXYvvQ7MU

https://youtu.be/XS7OmcX3uRA

Saetro
09-28-2016, 08:59 PM
What is your opinion about the "The Celts" by Alice Roberts (BBC). I came upon it in my favourite English bookshop in Paris but I may be disappointed if I compare it with Jean's lattest book upon this subject.

They have just showed the series down here in Australia.
Not bad, especially on the early stuff, but inevitably there are some omissions, simplifications and generalisations.
(The Eagle of the Ninth never happened, in their version.)
Limited time requires choices.
Some of the most fascinating discussions in this forum have been on Celts in Spain. Almost nothing from this series on that.
And nothing on the Picts.
Then, in the last five minutes of the final program, came a series of statements that need not to be listened to.
They over simplified, misstated and pandered to people's preconceptions.

But, all up, it included much recent scholarship and was better than most documentaries on ancient cultures.
And the objects!
Watch it for them and some reconstructed villages/forts.

Heber
09-30-2016, 06:12 PM
O' Brien, W. 2016.
Language shift and political context in Bronze Age Ireland: some implications of hill fort chronology.

11895

11897

https://www.academia.edu/28822424/O_Brien_W._2016._Language_shift_and_political_cont ext_in_Bronze_Age_Ireland_some_implications_of_hil l_fort_chronology

Heber
10-31-2016, 07:30 PM
Common Ground and Progress on the Celtic of the South- western (SW) Inscriptions
John Koch

DRAFT
22 October 2016

"Our understanding of the emergence of the Celtic languages and their relationship with the rest of )ndo-European still rests largely on a three-way comparison of Gaulish, Brythonic, and Goidelic. Until the discovery of the first long Celtiberian inscription from Botorrita, little more than this was possible. )n the coming years, one important factor for our grasp of Celtic as a subset of )ndo-European will be how much Palaeohispanic evidence we can confidently include in the comparisons on which our evolving reconstruction of Proto-Celtic is based. Today, the classification remains uncertain for a large body of material from the western )berian Peninsula outside the Celtiberian area in the eastern Meseta. The linguistic affiliation of this evidence should be more than an exercise in arbitrary labelling. We will want to know whether the evidence points to distinct branches of )ndo-European that had formed somewhere else and then entered the Peninsula in waves or, rather, a pattern of long-term diversification of )ndo-European in
in situas a dialect continuum, along the lines foreseen by Renfrew.

. . . part of Kochs summing up of his conclusions and accomplishments runs: [)t is not hard to see that the SW corpus contains Celtic names."

"It is not hard to see that the matrix language contains forms that look like indo-European verbs and preverbs.
Combined, these categories make up more than half the corpus and are consistent with a particular classification. This is entirely correct and is the reason that Koch needs to be credited for showing that Tartessian is Celtic."

https://www.academia.edu/29569963/Common_Ground_and_Progress_on_the_Celtic_of_the_So uth-_western_SW_Inscriptions

Heber
11-01-2016, 07:54 PM
10 Tachwedd / 10 November
UNIVERSITY OF WALES CENTRE FOR ADVANCED WELSH AND CELTIC STUDIES

Ancient European genomics: a view from the west
Professor Dan Bradley (Trinity College Dublin)

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Centre/2016/SeminarauHydref16.pdf

fridurich
11-01-2016, 09:24 PM
10 Tachwedd / 10 November
UNIVERSITY OF WALES CENTRE FOR ADVANCED WELSH AND CELTIC STUDIES

Ancient European genomics: a view from the west
Professor Dan Bradley (Trinity College Dublin)

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Centre/2016/SeminarauHydref16.pdf

Sounds interesting!

Jean M
11-01-2016, 09:38 PM
Sounds interesting!

It will probably just cover the same ground as a recent talk of his (the podcast of which Heber kindly gave us a link to somewhere - I can't find the thread), which went no further than what has already been published. His lab is continuing to work on ancient DNA, but Prof. Bradley is unlikely to let out clues to results prior to publication. Otherwise I would be tempted to go all the way to deepest Wales for this lecture. :)

Jean M
11-01-2016, 09:39 PM
Duplicate. Sorry.

J1 DYS388=13
11-02-2016, 09:21 AM
It's an excellent talk, even without graphics.
https://soundcloud.com/eneclann/dan-bradley-ancient-dna-and-irish-origins

Heber
11-02-2016, 10:18 AM
It's an excellent talk, even without graphics.
https://soundcloud.com/eneclann/dan-bradley-ancient-dna-and-irish-origins

Anyone interested in Irish ancient DNA should listen to this informative and at times amusing lecture.

What I learned from this lecture:

The Portal Tomb of Maghera was probably erected by the local GAA team. The soccer team would probably be incapable of such a feat.
The Rathlin Island pub where the Bell Beakers were found probably owe Dan Bradley a free pint due to the article in the Washington Post
TCD (Trinity) researchers only drink Earl Grey tea. I presume this means they would not be caught dead with Barry's or Lyons Green Label.
The past is a different country.
Freckles and fair skin is not an illness.
Extreme frequency of lactose tolerance in Ireland especially West of Ireland.
First image of the Bronze Age Kurgan probably depicted in the "serious" movie Highlander.

What I noted and confirmed in the recent GGI2016 lecture was that the CHG (as opposed to ANE) component was key in the formation of the Steppe componant (circa 25m).

Jean M
11-02-2016, 10:33 AM
What I noted and confirmed in the recent GGI2016 lecture was that the CHG (as opposed to ANE) component was key in the formation of the Steppe componant (circa 25m).

No. What he is saying is that there was a mixture of CHG and ANE on the steppe. Rather than mention ANE, he simply refers to "the local hunter-gatherers", by which he means EHG. Prof Bradley is not overturning in this lecture what he knows from the work of David Reich's team, which he and his students cited in the paper Cassidy 2015. There is nothing at all about ancient DNA in this lecture which was not published in Cassidy 2015, as indeed he says himself at the start of the lecture. Here's the relevant extract from Cassidy 2015:


Bronze Age Replacement. Prior studies (7, 9, 10) convincingly demonstrate that Central European genomes from the late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age differ from the preceding MN due to a substantial introgression originating with Steppe herders linked to cultures such as the Yamnaya. Accordingly, we used a series of tests to gauge whether the ancestries of the Rathlin Early Bronze Age genomes were subject to this influence. D statistics confirmed that Ballynahatty and other MN individuals form clades with each other to the exclusion of these Irish Bronze Age samples. Specific disruption of continuity between the Irish Neolithic and Bronze Age is clear with significant evidence of both Yamnaya and EHG introgression into Irish Bronze Age samples when placed in a clade with any MN.

Heber
11-02-2016, 10:41 AM
No. What he is saying is that there was a mixture of CHG and ANE on the steppe. Rather than mention ANE, he simply refers to "the local hunter-gatherers". Prof Bradley is not overturning in this lecture what he knows from the work of David Reich's team, which he and his students cited in the paper Cassidy 2015. There is nothing at all about ancient DNA in this lecture which was not published in Cassidy 2015.

CHG and Caucasus Component is referenced. ANE is not referenced. Circa 25m.

Jean M
11-02-2016, 10:44 AM
CHG and Caucasus Component is referenced. ANE is not referenced. Circa 25m.

Yes I know. He is just not bothering in this lecture to talk about the origins of EHG. He is not entering into where ANE came from, etc (i.e. what other teams discovered.) His focus is on what he and his team discovered from the Irish samples.

[Added] I think it is an excellent lecture. It gives an Irish audience what they want to know about their origins. I think he would be horrified to have it misunderstood as a denial of the discoveries by David Reich's team, simply because he did not go into enough detail about them.

Heber
11-02-2016, 10:46 AM
Yes I know. He is just not bothering in this lecture to focus on the origins of EHG on the steppe. He is not entering into where ANE came from, etc.

I get the impression that ANE is out of fashion and CHG is the new black

Jean M
11-02-2016, 10:55 AM
I get the impression that ANE is out of fashion and CHG is the new black

Oh yes. :biggrin1: That's true enough. The latest discovery is always the most exciting, and especially if no-one is entirely sure what it means, so there is room for lots and lots of debate and discussion. We have plenty of proof of that right here on this forum.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-03-2016, 12:52 PM
It will probably just cover the same ground as a recent talk of his (the podcast of which Heber kindly gave us a link to somewhere - I can't find the thread), which went no further than what has already been published. His lab is continuing to work on ancient DNA, but Prof. Bradley is unlikely to let out clues to results prior to publication. Otherwise I would be tempted to go all the way to deepest Wales for this lecture. :)

You should be ok, we have stopped collecting heads, in most parts anyway. :) John

Jean M
11-03-2016, 01:19 PM
You should be ok, we have stopped collecting heads, in most parts anyway.

I went to a conference put together by Profs. Koch and Cunliffe in Aberystwyth last year and it was a long train journey plus hotel trip. I have been to other such conferences in Cardiff. That's just a short hop for me by comparison, and can be combined with a visit to my younger son in Ebbw Vale. Much easier. Of course Prof. Koch is based in Aberystwyth (and a lovely place it is too) so I can see why it is easier for him to lay on a lecture series there. I'm glad that he has invited Prof. Bradley. He will be getting the Irish aDNA results right from the person who made them. The picture is starting to come together for Britain and Ireland.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-03-2016, 04:34 PM
I went to a conference put together by Profs. Koch and Cunliffe in Aberystwyth last year and it was a long train journey plus hotel trip. I have been to other such conferences in Cardiff. That's just a short hop for me by comparison, and can be combined with a visit to my younger son in Ebbw Vale. Much easier. Of course Prof. Koch is based in Aberystwyth (and a lovely place it is too) so I can see why it is easier for him to lay on a lecture series there. I'm glad that he has invited Prof. Bradley. He will be getting the Irish aDNA results right from the person who made them. The picture is starting to come together for Britain and Ireland.

Ebbw Vale - that's the next valley to me. You can pop in for a coffee and explain my dna results. ;) John

Jean M
11-03-2016, 05:19 PM
Ebbw Vale - that's the next valley to me. You can pop in for a coffee and explain my dna results. ;) John

I see. This is the modern version of collecting heads. You just borrow brains for a bit. :biggrin1:

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-03-2016, 06:36 PM
I see. This is the modern version of collecting heads. You just borrow brains for a bit. :biggrin1:

We've got smarter. :) John

Heber
11-05-2016, 02:13 PM
Ebbw Vale - that's the next valley to me. You can pop in for a coffee and explain my dna results. ;) John

John, Are you planning to go to the Bradley lecture. If so could you take notes and ask for clarification on the CHG and ANE component.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-05-2016, 07:19 PM
John, Are you planning to go to the Bradley lecture. If so could you take notes and ask for clarification on the CHG and ANE component.

I'm afraid you over-estimate my understanding of these things, it would be way over my head. :)
I hope someone can help you out though. John

rms2
11-06-2016, 12:17 AM
It's an excellent talk, even without graphics.
https://soundcloud.com/eneclann/dan-bradley-ancient-dna-and-irish-origins

I really enjoyed listening to that lecture earlier this afternoon. Thanks for the link to it.

Dr. Bradley practically came out and said plainly that a pretty thorough-going genetic replacement took place in Ireland during the Bronze Age and that, in his words, it was "not very pleasant", implying that violence was involved in the process.

rms2
11-06-2016, 12:33 AM
I really enjoyed listening to that lecture earlier this afternoon. Thanks for the link to it.

Dr. Bradley practically came out and said plainly that a pretty thorough-going genetic replacement took place in Ireland during the Bronze Age and that, in his words, it was "not very pleasant", implying that violence was involved in the process.

Henri Hubert was saying that nearly a hundred years ago. Here he is in his book, The History of the Celtic People, speaking of the Beaker Folk in the Isles:



. . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country (p. 173).

fridurich
11-06-2016, 01:07 AM
John, Are you planning to go to the Bradley lecture. If so could you take notes and ask for clarification on the CHG and ANE component.

I'll confess I don't know what ANE and CHG stand for. There are other 3 letter abbreviations that I don't know what they mean. I'll try to look some of them up. I think the N in ANE may stand for Neolithic. It just came to me, that HG in CHG may stand for Hunter Gatherers. I think I have heard some of the abbreviations full names before. I know a lot more about DNA and genetic genealogy than I did, but there is still a whole lot for me to learn, and there are lots of people that know way more about it than I do. However, I'm willing to learn.

rms2
11-06-2016, 01:40 AM
I'll confess I don't know what ANE and CHG stand for. There are other 3 letter abbreviations that I don't know what they mean. I'll try to look some of them up. I think the N in ANE may stand for Neolithic. It just came to me, that HG in CHG may stand for Hunter Gatherers. I think I have heard some of the abbreviations full names before. I know a lot more about DNA and genetic genealogy than I did, but there is still a whole lot for me to learn, and there are lots of people that know way more about it than I do. However, I'm willing to learn.

ANE = Ancient North Eurasian

CHG = Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (Caucasian in the sense of from the Caucasus Mountains, not in the sense of the archaic name for white people)

Heber
11-06-2016, 01:58 AM
I'll confess I don't know what ANE and CHG stand for. There are other 3 letter abbreviations that I don't know what they mean. I'll try to look some of them up. I think the N in ANE may stand for Neolithic. It just came to me, that HG in CHG may stand for Hunter Gatherers. I think I have heard some of the abbreviations full names before. I know a lot more about DNA and genetic genealogy than I did, but there is still a whole lot for me to learn, and there are lots of people that know way more about it than I do. However, I'm willing to learn.

WHG Western Hunter Gatherer
EEF. Early European Farmer
ANE Ancient North Eurasian
CHG Caucasus Hunter Gatherer

http://pin.it/YJXgKaq

http://pin.it/htjgJYY

Here is an explanation of the most recently discovered CHG component.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qw21YvmvgQ

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-06-2016, 05:58 AM
I'll confess I don't know what ANE and CHG stand for. There are other 3 letter abbreviations that I don't know what they mean. I'll try to look some of them up. I think the N in ANE may stand for Neolithic. It just came to me, that HG in CHG may stand for Hunter Gatherers. I think I have heard some of the abbreviations full names before. I know a lot more about DNA and genetic genealogy than I did, but there is still a whole lot for me to learn, and there are lots of people that know way more about it than I do. However, I'm willing to learn.

Don't worry, you are not on your own. ;) John

rms2
11-06-2016, 01:18 PM
I think we should change CHG to KHG, using the Russian name for the Caucasus: Кавказ (Kavkaz).

Typing Kavkaz is a lot quicker than typing Caucasian. ;)

fridurich
11-07-2016, 12:39 AM
WHG Western Hunter Gatherer
EEF. Early European Farmer
ANE Ancient North Eurasian
CHG Caucasus Hunter Gatherer

http://pin.it/YJXgKaq

http://pin.it/htjgJYY

Here is an explanation of the most recently discovered CHG component.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qw21YvmvgQ

Thanks for showing the full name of the groups. A very interesting video. I have heard of the Yamnaya (not sure about the spelling) Culture before. Good looking pins on Pinterest too. The one showing many different ethnic groups is pretty nice also. It is kind of mind boggling to think of some or all of the ancestors of the Irish and other Europeans as coming all of the way from the Caucasus region a very long time ago.

Heber
11-08-2016, 09:50 PM
Duplicate

Heber
11-08-2016, 09:50 PM
Thanks for showing the full name of the groups. A very interesting video. I have heard of the Yamnaya (not sure about the spelling) Culture before. Good looking pins on Pinterest too. The one showing many different ethnic groups is pretty nice also. It is kind of mind boggling to think of some or all of the ancestors of the Irish and other Europeans as coming all of the way from the Caucasus region a very long time ago.

The important thing is that we get Yamnaya or CHG as described in the Cassidy paper all the way to the edge of Atlantic Europe 4000 ybp and continuity with modern populations since then. I suspect we will find more samples like this.
We also have continuity in the Basques since the Neolithic as described by Gunther.
Both modern populations have peaks in R1b-P312 but different language families IE and non IE.
It will be very interesting to track the progress of CHG and R1b and understand the story of these two groups.
Still lots to learn.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917.abstract

rms2
11-08-2016, 11:16 PM
. . .
We also have continuity in the Basques since the Neolithic as described by Gunther . . .

Whoa. Wait just a minute. Where is the Neolithic y-dna from the Basques?

Heber
11-08-2016, 11:31 PM
Whoa. Wait just a minute. Where is the Neolithic y-dna from the Basques?

Did I say Neolithic y-DNA continuity from the Basques. No. Although Gunther did say:

"The Chalcolithic El Portalón individuals showed greatest genetic affinity to modern-day Basques. "

We also know that some experts called El Portalon ATP3 as R1b-M269+.
However I am prepared to wait for better quality samples to have a definitive opinion and as we are expecting a Big Bell Beaker paper from Iberia, that should help clarify the matter.

rms2
11-08-2016, 11:33 PM
Did I say Neolithic y-DNA continuity from the Basques. No. Although Gunther did say:

"The Chalcolithic El Portalón individuals showed greatest genetic affinity to modern-day Basques. "

We also know that some experts called El Portalon ATP3 as R1b-M269+.
However I am prepared to wait for better quality samples to have a definitive opinion and as we are expecting a Big Bell Beaker paper from Iberia, that should help clarify the matter.

You strongly implied it by talking about P312 immediately after posting about Basque continuity since the Neolithic.




We also have continuity in the Basques since the Neolithic as described by Gunther.
Both modern populations have peaks in R1b-P312 but different language families IE and non IE.


Very misleading.

ATP3 was not a good sample. That has been discussed ad nauseam here.

The two good samples from El Portalon were H2 and I2a.

Jessie
11-09-2016, 02:27 AM
The important thing is that we get Yamnaya or CHG as described in the Cassidy paper all the way to the edge of Atlantic Europe 4000 ybp and continuity with modern populations since then. I suspect we will find more samples like this.
We also have continuity in the Basques since the Neolithic as described by Gunther.
Both modern populations have peaks in R1b-P312 but different language families IE and non IE.
It will be very interesting to track the progress of CHG and R1b and understand the story of these two groups.
Still lots to learn.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917.abstract

What I've also found interesting is how distant the Irish are to the Basque even though these populations are both heavily R1b. A few years ago it was everywhere about how the Insular Celts were all descended from the Basque despite the fact that they were autosomally distant so it was always odd to me how this was claimed by some. Even with Rathlin the Basque are one of the most distant populations to them.

sweuro
11-09-2016, 02:58 AM
Did I say Neolithic y-DNA continuity from the Basques. No. Although Gunther did say:

"The Chalcolithic El Portalón individuals showed greatest genetic affinity to modern-day Basques. "

We also know that some experts called El Portalon ATP3 as R1b-M269+.
However I am prepared to wait for better quality samples to have a definitive opinion and as we are expecting a Big Bell Beaker paper from Iberia, that should help clarify the matter.
The Chalcolitic sample was still pretty much middle-neolithic like, altough with more WHG, but he lacked steppe. The Bronze-Age spaniard is so far the closest to basques.

Jean M
01-14-2017, 12:19 PM
Prof John Koch's latest version of Celtic from the West can be found in the February issue of Current Archaeology, now out, pp. 42+ : https://www.archaeology.co.uk/

Main differences:


He has shifted from his officially neutral position on the homeland of the Indo-Europeans (which he only adopted for the purposes of a joint project with Barry Cunliffe.) He accepts that the latest aDNA results favour the steppe hypothesis. He cites the aDNA from recent papers including Cassidy et al 2015 as evidence for the Copper/Bronze Age as the period in which IE speakers spread.
He has shifted towards my position in B of the C that the earliest Bell Beaker arrivals in Britain and Ireland would have spoken a language closer to PIE than Celtic, and that Celtic developed/spread in the Bronze Age within the Steppe-related, BB-descended populations.


But he is still pushing for Celtic having arisen in Iberia.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-15-2017, 01:56 AM
Prof John Koch's latest version of Celtic from the West can be found in the February issue of Current Archaeology, now out, pp. 42+ : https://www.archaeology.co.uk/

Main differences:


He has shifted from his officially neutral position on the homeland of the Indo-Europeans (which he only adopted for the purposes of a joint project with Barry Cunliffe.) He accepts that the latest aDNA results favour the steppe hypothesis. He cites the aDNA from recent papers including Cassidy et al 2015 as evidence for the Copper/Bronze Age as the period in which IE speakers spread.
He has shifted towards my position in B of the C that the earliest Bell Beaker arrivals in Britain and Ireland would have spoken a language closer to PIE than Celtic, and that Celtic developed/spread in the Bronze Age within the Steppe-related, BB-descended populations.


But he is still pushing for Celtic having arisen in Iberia.

Jean can you tell us the article title ? I cant find it on that website. TIA.

Heber
01-15-2017, 08:40 AM
Prof John Koch's latest version of Celtic from the West can be found in the February issue of Current Archaeology, now out, pp. 42+ : https://www.archaeology.co.uk/

Main differences:


He has shifted from his officially neutral position on the homeland of the Indo-Europeans (which he only adopted for the purposes of a joint project with Barry Cunliffe.) He accepts that the latest aDNA results favour the steppe hypothesis. He cites the aDNA from recent papers including Cassidy et al 2015 as evidence for the Copper/Bronze Age as the period in which IE speakers spread.
He has shifted towards my position in B of the C that the earliest Bell Beaker arrivals in Britain and Ireland would have spoken a language closer to PIE than Celtic, and that Celtic developed/spread in the Bronze Age within the Steppe-related, BB-descended populations.


But he is still pushing for Celtic having arisen in Iberia.

His 2014 paper highlighted "Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West".

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Jean M
01-15-2017, 12:29 PM
Jean can you tell us the article title ? I cant find it on that website. TIA.

I looked myself and couldn't find even a summary of the article on the website. Otherwise I would have linked direct to it. All you can see is the title of the article on the cover "Celtic from the West". On the cover the subtitle is "On the trail of a prehistoric lingua franca". Inside the subtitle is "In search of the archaeology of a language".

The idea of a "lingua franca" was that of Barry Cunliffe. It never struck me as plausible. It was an attempt to explain the movement of language without the movement of people. In strong contrast John Koch does not use the term in the actual article. Koch comes across as frankly delighted that migration is back on the menu of archaeological explanation, which makes collaboration with linguists much easier, as the latter didn't understand how language could move without people moving.

Jean M
01-15-2017, 12:50 PM
His 2014 paper highlighted "Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West".

To the best of my knowledge, no-one has ever proposed that PIE evolved in Iberia. So it had to be clear from the start that "Celtic from the West" was not proposing any such crazy idea. It was stated in the Introduction to the first Celtic from the West volume (2010), p. 2 that the Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age hypothesis "does not require a relocation of the Indo-European homeland itself to the west (nor favour a particular proposed homeland).."

The "Celtic from the West" project was officially neutral between the steppe IE homeland hypothesis (favoured by linguists, including Koch privately) and the Anatolian IE homeland hypothesis (favoured by many archaeologists, including Cunliffe privately).

A lot of archaeologists could not get past their conviction that there was such a huge population increase in the Neolithic that no subsequent migration could be large enough to have a significant effect, such as would be required to change languages. I leant that way myself at one time, about 10 years ago. But I was convinced by the linguistic evidence that IE was Copper Age, and therefore that there had been large migrations at that time, whatever the mechanism that made them possible. Evidence of boom followed by bust in Neolithic northern Europe suggested that some of these migrations could actually have been entering regions much less populated than previously supposed, making it easier to understand language change.

Then the ancient genetic evidence fell into place. At this point a lot of archaeologists were staggered, as they had not taken in the boom-and-bust scenario. So at one meeting where some archaeologists were given the aDNA results, the suggestion was made that plague carried by the steppe arrivals might have killed off the farmers they encountered, who had no resistance to it. Hence the rapid publication of a paper on plague in the various samples that the Reich lab had used for the papers showing the migration from the steppe. Personally I doubt whether this is the big solution. But it clearly made some archaeologists feel better.

Meanwhile Prof Koch had become enthusiastic about the stelae connection, hence his talk in 2014 which was outside the official line for the project.

ArmandoR1b
01-15-2017, 04:53 PM
What I've also found interesting is how distant the Irish are to the Basque even though these populations are both heavily R1b. A few years ago it was everywhere about how the Insular Celts were all descended from the Basque despite the fact that they were autosomally distant so it was always odd to me how this was claimed by some. Even with Rathlin the Basque are one of the most distant populations to them.
Right, the Rathlin specimen is one of the biggest pieces of evidence that there is a disconnect between Neolithic non-R1b-P312 and Bronze Age R1b-P312 at a time that is much closer to the time frame of a change in DNA throughout western Europe. It is a key specimen along with the other P312 Bronze Age specimens from Bell Beaker burials.

vettor
01-15-2017, 05:22 PM
What celtic markers travelled down the balkans and into anatolia. IIRC they even settled in both of these areas ...............circa 400BC