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V-X
11-02-2015, 10:57 PM
The name is somewhat of a clue, but what exactly is the "celtic from the west" hypothesis and what are the arguments for and against it?

Have the papers by Haak et al and Lazaridis et al shifted opinion at all, and how likely is it to be rejected or accepted in the next few years?

Jean M
11-03-2015, 12:45 AM
The "Celtic from the West" hypothesis was propounded by eminent Celticists Profs John Koch (linguistics) and Barry Cunliffe (archaeology) a few years ago. They challenged the standard theory that Celtic developed in Central Europe in the Iron Age, and spread with the La Tène culture. Instead they propose that it spread from Iberia, perhaps with Bell Beaker.

There are indeed problems with the the idea that Celtic spread with La Tène. We have evidence of widespread Celtic before La Tène. Eminent prehistorian Kristian Kristiansen said in a lecture on 31 October that the theory of Celtic spread with La Tène is dead. He is not the only scholar to think so.

The idea of a spread of Celtic with Bell Beaker is not new. It has been proposed intermittently since the 1930s. But ideas have changed over the origin of Bell Beaker. Since 2001 it has been generally accepted that BB began in Iberia. Add to that a language once spoken in Iberia (Celtiberian) which linguistically is the most archaic known form of Celtic, plus place-names indicative of an older Indo-European language, you can see why the idea of Celtic developing in Iberia would appeal.

However linguists other than Prof. Koch seem unimpressed. One can see why. Proto-Celtic appears to have developed in contact with a precursor of Germanic. Koch himself recognised at the start that there was an alternative explanation for the archaic nature of Celtiberian, to wit that it was a language that retained archaic features by being cut off from the continuing development of Celtic in its heartland.

V-X
11-03-2015, 01:52 AM
Since 2001

What was the turning point?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-03-2015, 06:24 AM
As someone with a fairly basic level of knowledge at best, over the years I've hear about "Iberian" celts and "Germanic" celts. If such cultures existed around roughly the same period what connects them - is it dna to some extent, or just "cultural" and why the commonality?
A bit fanciful maybe, but is it possible that celtic culture partly emerged from the earlier people of the Isles, who certainly weren't dummies given what they achieved and who had the advantages of mineral and other wealth, particularly as metal working processes developed, acknowledging that it could have been a two-way process over a long period? They seemed to have had very early sea links with the mediterranean and other parts of the outside World. Interesting to ponder.:)

Heber
11-03-2015, 07:13 AM
The name is somewhat of a clue, but what exactly is the "celtic from the west" hypothesis and what are the arguments for and against it?

Have the papers by Haak et al and Lazaridis et al shifted opinion at all, and how likely is it to be rejected or accepted in the next few years?

There were three phases of the Cunliffe, Koch proposal:

1) Celtic from the West
https://www.academia.edu/7336002/Celtic_from_the_West._Alternative_Perspectives_fro m_Archaeology_Genetics_Language_and_Literature

2) Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages
http://gtr.rcuk.ac.uk/project/CE10AF6F-5655-4EC2-9A39-14D0A73C0816
https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

3) Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West
https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/

V-X
11-03-2015, 08:56 AM
Quite funny that they appear to be backtracking. This looks to me like a good example of a 'degenerative research program (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos#Research_programmes)' as described by Imre Lakatos. They are fiddling with the protective belt to protect their hard core. Even if they are paying lip service to the idea of being skeptical, in practice they are supporting only their theory, if those slides are anything to go by.

Confirmation bias (http://landman-psychology.com/ConfirmationBias.pdf) has gotten hold of them. (A must read psychology paper for any kind of researcher)

The knowledge that people typically consider only one hypothesis at a time and often make the assumption at the outset that that hypothesis is
true leads to the conjecture that reasoning might be improved by training people to think of alternative hypotheses early in the hypothesis evaluation process

They shot themselves in the foot by specifying Iberia I think. If they had stuck to a more broad "celtic from the bronze age" it would have been easier to fit the developing detail into that framework. Clearly some celtic elements are present in Iberia, but I don't see the need to select any of the available options that go beyond what we actually know, when there are multiple possibilities that are equally well supported by the available evidence. That's especially the case when we expect that there will be plenty of groundbreaking evidence and surprises over the next few years.

J1 DYS388=13
11-03-2015, 09:11 AM
In his summary, Prof. Cunliffe called on everyone, meaning the archaeologists, linguists, and geneticists in the room, to "look at our own data without preconceptions."

V-X
11-03-2015, 09:30 AM
In his summary, Prof. Cunliffe called on everyone, meaning the archaeologists, linguists, and geneticists in the room, to "look at our own data without preconceptions."

And yet everyone will interpret the next evidence in light of their own pet theory. :bounce:

V-X
11-03-2015, 10:02 AM
This video seems to be a concise exposition. The way he speaks about it makes it sound like it's mainly the origin of the celtic language(s) that is in question.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brxu_h_pzBg

J1 DYS388=13
11-03-2015, 10:40 AM
The introduction to the first Celtic From the West book addresses that.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 11:31 AM
In his summary, Prof. Cunliffe called on everyone, meaning the archaeologists, linguists, and geneticists in the room, to "look at our own data without preconceptions."

I don't recall that, but have little doubt that he meant preconceptions formed from other disciplines.

It has been part of archaeological theory for a long time that archaeologists should examine the material remains without bias from historical knowledge. Early archaeologists/antiquarians tended to interpret what they saw in the light of Classical learning. For example antiquary John Aubrey surveyed Stonehenge in the late 17th century. He rightly concluded that it was native not Roman. No doubt he had seen sufficient Roman remains to know that they built in ashlar or brick. But having read in Classical texts of druids in Britain just prior to the Roman conquest, he thought Stonehenge had been built by them. In fact it was built in prehistory and no Classical text was going to tell him who built it.

More recently, some geneticists have been over-reliant on other disciplines for their interpretations. As I said in Ancestral Journeys:


Genetic results were interpreted in the light of a convenient archaeological model; then the conclusion was taken as proof of the model. Other studies selected a migration familiar from the history books and set out to find its genetic traces. Any genetic marker along the trail of the known migration was then linked to it. The hitch here is that many migrations took similar routes to earlier ones. Furthermore the mass of migration in modern times has frequently muddied the tracks. Simple answers are in short supply.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 11:40 AM
What was the turning point?

A compilation of radiocarbon dates. Müller, J. and van Willigen, S. 2001. New radiocarbon evidence for European Bell Beakers and the consequences for the diffusion of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon, in F. Nicolis (ed.), Bell Beakers Today: Pottery, people, culture, symbols in prehistoric Europe. Proceedings of the International colloquium, Riva del Garda (Trento, Italy), 11-16 May 1998, pp. 59-75.

In fact the conference was 1998, so a lot of Bell Beaker experts would have known about it years before publication.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 12:11 PM
As someone with a fairly basic level of knowledge at best, over the years I've hear about "Iberian" celts and "Germanic" celts.


Amateurs may use such terms, but they could be misleading, and so are best avoided. The term "Iberian" can mean "pertaining to the Iberian peninsula", but it also could refer to a people, the Iberes, who spoke a non-Indo-European language and so were definitely not Celts. "Germanic" always means pertaining to the speakers of Germanic languages, who are/were definitely not Celts. If you want to talk about the people of Germany, you say "German". But Germany did not exist when Celts lived in what is now its territory.

If you want to talk about Celts who inhabited what is now German-speaking and French-speaking territory in the Iron Age, you can use the standard terms for their cultures i.e. Hallstatt and La Tène. Or you can call them Gauls.

J1 DYS388=13
11-03-2015, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE=Jean M;118391]I don't recall that, but have little doubt that he meant preconceptions formed from other disciplines.

The quote from Prof. C that I wish I had transcribed verbatim was something like "It may be that our theory is not right, but that is how academic discussion must proceed..." Did you catch it?

Jean M
11-03-2015, 12:35 PM
They shot themselves in the foot by specifying Iberia I think. If they had stuck to a more broad "celtic from the bronze age" it would have been easier to fit the developing detail into that framework.

The background was Prof. Cunliffe's wave of enthusiasm for the idea that the Atlantic had been a major route for human contacts over millennia. I remember hearing him lecture on the topic. It was interesting as a counter-weight to the usual emphasis on the Mediterranean and the Rhine. He then published the approach as Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples, 8000 BC to AD 1500 (2001).

Prof Koch meanwhile was eager to prove that the corpus of inscriptions in the South-Western palaeohispanic script were written in a Celtic language (which he thought was Tartessian). He felt that this would be crucial evidence for the existence of Celtic before La Tène. (In fact we already had such evidence in the Lepontic inscriptions in the southern Alps, plus Celtic personal names in Iberia.)

So they teamed up to promote the idea of Celtic from the West.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 12:40 PM
The quote from Prof. C that I wish I had transcribed verbatim was something like "It may be that our theory is not right, but that is how academic discussion must proceed..." Did you catch it?

No. I did not take notes on the summing up by Sir Barry. All I recall him saying is that thinking on the Indo-Europeans had been led by linguists in the first place, as was proper, then led by archaeologists for a comparatively short time, and now genetics was taking over as the lead discipline. Or words to that effect.

rms2
11-03-2015, 03:18 PM
A compilation of radiocarbon dates. Müller, J. and van Willigen, S. 2001. New radiocarbon evidence for European Bell Beakers and the consequences for the diffusion of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon, in F. Nicolis (ed.), Bell Beakers Today: Pottery, people, culture, symbols in prehistoric Europe. Proceedings of the International colloquium, Riva del Garda (Trento, Italy), 11-16 May 1998, pp. 59-75.

In fact the conference was 1998, so a lot of Bell Beaker experts would have known about it years before publication.

What is not clear in that report is the nature of the oldest rc-dated Beaker burials in Iberia and southern France. It would be nice to have some details. From what I understand (and I have mentioned this before), the oldest Iberian Beaker finds come from Neolithic-type collective tombs and involve bodies that are of Mediterranean type: short in stature, gracile, and longheaded, i.e., just the type associated with Near Eastern-derived farmers. Absent is the package we normally associate with Bell Beaker: single burial in a timber or stone lined pit covered with a round tumulus of a body on its side, with knees flexed, and accompanied by weapons, buttons with a v-shaped boring, and what are commonly regarded as archer's wrist guards. In addition, the bodies in these single graves under round tumuli are not Mediterranean but tend to be more robust, taller, and often brachycephalic.

So, the early Iberian Beaker bodies were buried in a different manner from the later Beaker bodies and are markedly different physically. It sounds as though they were two different kinds of people.

If that is the case, then radiocarbon dates are not telling the whole story and could be really misleading.

rms2
11-03-2015, 03:51 PM
. . .

If that is the case, then radiocarbon dates are not telling the whole story and could be really misleading.

I'm quoting myself to expand a little bit on what I wrote in that last post.

It sounds like what is being dated is a culture named for a type of pot and in which the pot is the thing. It might be our great misfortune that Bell Beaker was named for a pot, because apparently the pot is really not the thing.

The pot is only one aspect of Beaker, and not the most important aspect.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 03:57 PM
It sounds like what is being dated is a culture named for a type of pot and in which the pot is the thing. It might be our great misfortune that Bell Beaker was named for a pot, because apparently the pot is really not the thing.

The pot is only one aspect of Beaker, and not the most important aspect.

I agree entirely. This is a complex issue. The only way to find out who the people were genetically is to test their DNA. :)

Jean M
11-03-2015, 04:04 PM
From what I understand (and I have mentioned this before), the oldest Iberian Beaker finds come from Neolithic-type collective tombs and involve bodies that are of Mediterranean type: short in stature, gracile, and longheaded, i.e., just the type associated with Near Eastern-derived farmers. .....

However the Iberian BB pottery was not produced in a local Neolithic context, but within the context of a metal-working culture brought by immigrants. Genetically we may find that they were R1b on the male side, but having an autosomal signature much more EEF than Eastern BB, due to intermarriage with local women. On the other hand it is possible that the early metal-workers in Iberia derived from a source population close to the steppe, but including G2a and I2a founders. We won't know until the aDNA results start arriving.

What is clear is that farmers in Iberia did not suddenly come up with a whole package - sophisticated metal-working, domesticated horses, etc all by themselves. It arrived from somewhere on/close to the steppe.

rms2
11-03-2015, 05:10 PM
However the Iberian BB pottery was not produced in a local Neolithic context, but within the context of a metal-working culture brought by immigrants. Genetically we may find that they were R1b on the male side, but having an autosomal signature much more EEF than Eastern BB, due to intermarriage with local women. On the other hand it is possible that the early metal-workers in Iberia derived from a source population close to the steppe, but including G2a and I2a founders. We won't know until the aDNA results start arriving.

What is clear is that farmers in Iberia did not suddenly come up with a whole package - sophisticated metal-working, domesticated horses, etc all by themselves. It arrived from somewhere on/close to the steppe.

Is there evidence of horse domestication in the earliest Iberian Beaker burials? It seems to me it is those earliest Iberian Beaker burials that are at issue. They are the ones upon which the claim of priority for Iberian Beaker is based.

That's what I mean about the Müller and van Willigen paper. It doesn't really say anything about those very early Iberian Beaker burials. What is Beaker about them other than the pots?

rms2
11-03-2015, 05:32 PM
I get the impression that fully-formed, single-grave-tumulus Beaker was really late Vucedol (Vinkovci-Samogyvar/Mako) that somehow acquired Beaker pottery and, with it, that confusing moniker.

Because, other than the pots, there is nothing western about Beaker.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 05:43 PM
Is there evidence of horse domestication in the earliest Iberian Beaker burials? It seems to me it is those earliest Iberian Beaker burials that are at issue. They are the ones upon which the claim of priority for Iberian Beaker is based.

The horse domestication and metal-working arrived in Iberia before Bell Beaker pots (c. 3100 BC). I have laid all this out in both Ancestral Journeys and Blood of the Celts.

The pottery style had to start somewhere, but it does not mark the start of a whole new culture. This is the problem. The big changes come before the new tableware and in the middle of the long-lived bell-shaped pottery fashion. The big change before is the development of metallurgy, horse domestication, the adoption by Yamnaya of the whole Secondary Products package, etc on the European steppe. The big change in the middle was political/social, with the chief focus of what we call BB shifting from the mouth of the Tagus to the Carpathian Basin and then points north. New pottery (the "accompanying pottery") gets picked up in the Carpathian Basin, as well as the round barrow I suppose.

rms2
11-03-2015, 06:04 PM
I don't recall mention of horse domestication in Iberia that early in either of your books, Jean, but I guess I missed that.

Jean M
11-03-2015, 10:51 PM
I don't recall mention of horse domestication in Iberia that early in either of your books, Jean, but I guess I missed that.

Blood of the Celts, p. 87:


Another rich Copper Age culture appeared in Iberia. [Illustration 37] The earliest dates of copper-working there (c. 3100 BC) are for mining-metallurgical complexes in South-western Iberia, such as Cabezo Juré. It is revealing that this site was colonised by a community already specialised in copper production. These incomers lived within a fortified centre, dining well and importing luxuries, while in a village outside lived the lower-status workers. The well-protected elite controlled access to horses, used probably in the transport of copper ore. At this time Iberia had wild horses. Some of their DNA made its way into modern Iberian breeds. Horse bones are found together with Bell Beaker pottery throughout its range, so the idea that domesticated horses spread from Iberia with Bell Beaker has enjoyed a certain popularity, but sites such as Cabezo Juré, which precede Bell Beaker, suggest that the knowledge of horse-taming and copper-working arrived in Iberia together from the European steppe.

kinman
11-04-2015, 01:35 AM
It would not surprise me, although I wonder just how accurate the 3100 B.C. date is. In any case, I still believe that R-L11 gave rise to R-P312 about 5400 years ago (3400 B.C.) in the area of Moldova. Therefore that would still have given some of them 300 years to finally arrive in Iberia.
And if they brought plague to Iberia with them, even a relative small force could have taken over Cabezo Jure in a relatively short period of time (just as the Spanish Conquistadors would later do to the Aztecs with smallpox). Perhaps the local people in Cabezo Jure even initially regarded the Kurgan newcomers (on their horses) as gods.
-------------------Ken


Blood of the Celts, p. 87:
Horse bones are found together with Bell Beaker pottery throughout its range, so the idea that domesticated horses spread from Iberia with Bell Beaker has enjoyed a certain popularity, but sites such as Cabezo Juré, which precede Bell Beaker, suggest that the knowledge of horse-taming and copper-working arrived in Iberia together from the European steppe.

northkerry
11-04-2015, 06:51 AM
However the Iberian BB pottery was not produced in a local Neolithic context, but within the context of a metal-working culture brought by immigrants. Genetically we may find that they were R1b on the male side, but having an autosomal signature much more EEF than Eastern BB, due to intermarriage with local women. On the other hand it is possible that the early metal-workers in Iberia derived from a source population close to the steppe, but including G2a and I2a founders. We won't know until the aDNA results start arriving.

What is clear is that farmers in Iberia did not suddenly come up with a whole package - sophisticated metal-working, domesticated horses, etc all by themselves. It arrived from somewhere on/close to the steppe.


http://beniculturali.altaviadeimontiliguri.it/beniAVML/resources/cms/documents/MaggiPearceAntiquityML.pdf
"This paper presents twelve new radiocarbon dates from copper mines at Monte Loreto in Liguria,
northwest Italy, which indicate that extraction began around 3500 cal BC, making these the
earliest copper mines to be discovered in Western Europe so far. The dates are placed in their
regional context, with a discussion of results from Libiola and other sites associated with early
copper mining.
Keywords:
Copper Age, Italy, Liguria, early mining, copper metallurgy"

"Our understanding of the origins of copper metallurgy in Europe has developed somewhat
since Renfrew (1969, 1970: 306-8, figure 10) posited independent origins for copper
working in the Balkans and in the Iberian Peninsula. One key issue that has emerged is the
distinction between the circulation of copper artefacts, what Skeates (1994) has defined as
the ‘early metal-using horizon’, and the actual mining of copper ores for the manufacture
of artefacts. Thus small numbers of metal artefacts already occur in Italian late Neolithic
contexts: for example, an awl found in the Arene Candide cave (Finale Ligure, Savona
province) may be dated to 4000 cal BC or earlier and seems to be made of native copper
(Campana & Franceschi 1997).
Evidence for prehistoric copper mining was reported in the nineteenth century at a num-
ber of sites in Liguria, north-west Italy, notably by the geologist and pioneer of prehistoric
research, Issel (1879, 1892: 4-6). In this paper we present twelve new radiocarbon dates
obtained from recent excavations carried out by an international team at one of these – the
copper mines at Monte Loreto (Castiglione Chiavarese, Genoa province) (see Table 1).
The dates, obtained mostly from young-wood charcoal, document actual copper extraction
(rather than just metal use) from around 3500 cal BC, making these the earliest copper mines
discovered in Western Europe so far"

Net Down G5L
11-04-2015, 08:31 AM
It would not surprise me, although I wonder just how accurate the 3100 B.C. date is. In any case, I still believe that R-L11 gave rise to R-P312 about 5400 years ago (3400 B.C.) in the area of Moldova. Therefore that would still have given some of them 300 years to finally arrive in Iberia.
And if they brought plague to Iberia with them, even a relative small force could have taken over Cabezo Jure in a relatively short period of time (just as the Spanish Conquistadors would later do to the Aztecs with smallpox). Perhaps the local people in Cabezo Jure even initially regarded the Kurgan newcomers (on their horses) as gods.
-------------------Ken
So if we work on the hypothesis that steppe people brought the plague to neolithic/chalcolithic central and western Europe can we use population crashes in Europe (e.g. Shennan 2013 and records of mega settlement decline) to plot the early arrival of steppe peoples? We could then see if there is any correlation with evidence for horses and evidence for metalworking to see if they may have been common m events or successive events.
But oh for accurately dated information to be precise on all this.

Rasmussen 2015
DISCUSSION
Our calibrated molecular clock pushes the divergence dates for the early branching of Y. pestis back to 5,783 years ago, an additional 2,000 years compared to previous findings (Table S5, Figure S5) (Cui et al., 2013; Morelli et al., 2010). Furthermore, using the temporally stamped ancient DNA data, we are able to derive a time series for the molecular acquisition of the pathogenicity elements and immune avoidance systems that facilitated the
evolution from a less virulent bacteria with zoonotic potential, such as Y. pseudotuberculosis, to one of the most deadly bacteria ever encountered by humans (Figure 6). From our findings, we conclude that the ancestor of extant
Y. pestis strains was present by the end of the 4th millennium BC and was widely spread across Eurasia from at least the early 3rd millennium BC. The occurrence of plague in the Bronze Age Eurasian individuals we sampled (7 of 101) indicates that plague infections were common at least 3,000 years earlier than recorded historically. However, based on the absence of crucial virulence genes, unlike the later Y. pestis strains that were responsible for the first to third pandemics, these ancient ancestral Y. pestis strains likely did not have the ability to cause bubonic plague, only pneumonic and septicemic plague. These early plagues may have been responsible for the suggested population declines in the late 4th millennium BC and the early 3rd millennium BC (Hinz et al., 2012; Shennan et al., 2013).

Shennan 2013

6523

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131001/ncomms3486/fig_tab/ncomms3486_F3.html

Jean M
11-04-2015, 09:23 AM
"This paper presents twelve new radiocarbon dates from copper mines at Monte Loreto in Liguria, northwest Italy, which indicate that extraction began around 3500 cal BC, making these the earliest copper mines to be discovered in Western Europe so far. The dates are placed in their
regional context, with a discussion of results from Libiola and other sites associated with early copper mining.


Yes that is included in both Ancestral Journeys (2013), top of p. 115 and Blood of the Celts (2015), p. top p. 84.

Net Down G5L
11-04-2015, 10:28 AM
So if we work on the hypothesis that steppe people brought the plague to neolithic/chalcolithic central and western Europe can we use population crashes in Europe (e.g. Shennan 2013 and records of mega settlement decline) to plot the early arrival of steppe peoples? We could then see if there is any correlation with evidence for horses and evidence for metalworking to see if they may have been common m events or successive events.
But oh for accurately dated information to be precise on all this.


Hmmm
The Rasmussen Y pestis disease samples are:
Table 1. Overview of the Y. pestis Containing Samples
Sample Country Site Culture Date (cal BC) CO92 pMT1 pPCP1 pCD1
RISE00 Estonia Sope Corded Ware 2575–2349 0.39 0.36 1.40 0.66
RISE139 Poland Chociwel Unetice 2135–1923 0.14 0.24 0.76 0.28
RISE386 Russia Bulanovo Sintashta 2280–2047 0.82 0.96 1.12 1.60
RISE397 Armenia Kapan EIA 1048–885 0.25 0.40 6.88 0.50
RISE505 Russia Kytmanovo Andronovo 1746–1626 8.73 9.15 34.09 17.46
RISE509 Russia Afanasievo Gora Afanasievo 2887–2677 29.45 16.96 31.22 50.32
RISE511 Russia Afanasievo Gora Afanasievo 2909–2679 0.20 0.24 1.19 0.6


These correlate with Corded Ware heading west and carrying Pestis.

Shennan seems to identify western Neolithic population crashes at an earlier date but that depends how the data is interpreted. He rules out climate change as a correlating cause of the population crashes and proposes disease.

So other Allentoft samples were apparently not containing Pestis. is the presence of Pestis in samples implying a degree of immunity. would people who had died of Pestis show clear Pestis presence? Was there an earlier 'plague' disease that has not yet been identified in samples? could this be yet another critical future area of research?

rms2
11-04-2015, 12:00 PM
Blood of the Celts, p. 87:

Yes, I found that passage in the book on my train ride home.

I am still puzzled by the differences between very early Beaker burials in Iberia and later Beaker burials in Iberia and elsewhere.

kinman
11-04-2015, 01:18 PM
Yes, but the correlation would probably go beyond Corded Ware. R-L11 would not only have given rise to R-P312 (about 5400 years ago, in or near Moldova), but to R-U106 as well. From there U106 goes north (on the east side of the Carpathian Mountains) to become part of Corded Ware, while brother clade P312 (and relatives) went west to the Danube and up that river corridor on the other side of the Carpathians. So the plague (Yersinia pestis) could have been spread into Europe on both sides of the Carpathians just by the R1b men (Southern Yamnaya).

But then there were their R1a relatives as well. The R1b men had probably come from western Kazakhstan (or closeby near the Volga River), and gone west-southwest to the Moldova-southern Ukraine area. Meanwhile their R1a relatives (Northern Yamnaya) would have taken a more direct west-northwest route into northern Europe. If they too had developed some immunity to plague, they could have carried a third wave of plague into more northern parts of Europe. The R1a men and R1b-U106 men formed the Corded Ware Culture, while R-P312 (and relatives) formed the Bell Beaker Culture.

These "Kurgan" men had all the advantages. They had domesticated the horse (in or near western Kazakhstan) many centuries earlier, they had developed some immunity to plague, and they were bigger and presumably healthier. And having developed a genetic tendency to produce more sons than daughters probably helped as well. And they were not dependent on farming, so when the drought began in Europe about 5300 years ago, they weathered that problem fairly well. Those poor European farmers, smaller in stature, dependent on farming, lacking immunity to plague, and lacking all the advantages of domesticated horses-----they didn't stand a chance (even if there hadn't been a severe drought).

-----------Ken Kinman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hmmm
The Rasmussen Y pestis disease samples are:
Table 1. Overview of the Y. pestis Containing Samples
Sample Country Site Culture Date (cal BC) CO92 pMT1 pPCP1 pCD1
RISE00 Estonia Sope Corded Ware 2575–2349 0.39 0.36 1.40 0.66
RISE139 Poland Chociwel Unetice 2135–1923 0.14 0.24 0.76 0.28
RISE386 Russia Bulanovo Sintashta 2280–2047 0.82 0.96 1.12 1.60
RISE397 Armenia Kapan EIA 1048–885 0.25 0.40 6.88 0.50
RISE505 Russia Kytmanovo Andronovo 1746–1626 8.73 9.15 34.09 17.46
RISE509 Russia Afanasievo Gora Afanasievo 2887–2677 29.45 16.96 31.22 50.32
RISE511 Russia Afanasievo Gora Afanasievo 2909–2679 0.20 0.24 1.19 0.6


These correlate with Corded Ware heading west and carrying Pestis.

Shennan seems to identify western Neolithic population crashes at an earlier date but that depends how the data is interpreted. He rules out climate change as a correlating cause of the population crashes and proposes disease.

So other Allentoft samples were apparently not containing Pestis. is the presence of Pestis in samples implying a degree of immunity. would people who had died of Pestis show clear Pestis presence? Was there an earlier 'plague' disease that has not yet been identified in samples? could this be yet another critical future area of research?

Jean M
11-04-2015, 02:31 PM
I am still puzzled by the differences between very early Beaker burials in Iberia and later Beaker burials in Iberia and elsewhere.

The great diversity of early BB burials in Iberia was the topic of Catriona Gibson's part of the talk she and Kerri Cleary gave at the Aberystwyth conference. Kerri Cleary covered Ireland. I didn't manage to get as much of it noted down as I would have liked, but the key point made was that the change to standardization comes c. 2200 BC, as I rather suspected. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015&p=118455&viewfull=1#post118455

Heber
04-22-2016, 10:49 PM
Celtic from the West 3 will be published 30th April.
Has anyone ordered it and is this the right thread to discuss the various papers?

Celtic from the West 3: Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages — questions of shared language [Hardback]
Barry Cunliffe (Editor); John T. Koch (Editor)

Oxbow Special Price: £33.95
Amazon Price: $67.90

ISBN: 9781785702273 | Published by: Oxbow Books | Series: Celtic Studies Publications | Year of Publication: 2016 | Language: English 480p, H246 x W189 (mm)
Status: 30th April 2016

Celtic from the West 3

Details

The Celtic languages and groups called Keltoi (i.e. ‘Celts’) emerge into our written records at the pre-Roman Iron Age. The impetus for this book is to explore from the perspectives of three disciplines—archaeology, genetics, and linguistics—the background in later European prehistory to these developments. There is a traditional scenario, according to which, Celtic speech and the associated group identity came in to being during the Early Iron Age in the north Alpine zone and then rapidly spread across central and western Europe. This idea of ‘Celtogenesis’ remains deeply entrenched in scholarly and popular thought. But it has become increasingly difficult to reconcile with recent discoveries pointing towards origins in the deeper past. It should no longer be taken for granted that Atlantic Europe during the 2nd and 3rd millennia BC were pre-Celtic or even pre-Indo-European. The explorations in Celtic from the West 3 are drawn together in this spirit, continuing two earlier volumes in the influential series.

Table of Contents

Introduction
BARRY CUNLIFFE & JOHN T. KOCH 1
part I: Archaeology
1. Behind the Warriors: Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic
Europe (3rd millennium BC)
Laure Salanova 13
2. The Lost Cultures of the Halberd Bearers: a non-Beaker ideology in
later 3rd millennium Atlantic Europe
stuart needham 40
3. Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use
and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period
catriona d. Gibson 83
4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111
5. Burial Practices in Ireland during the Late 3rd millennium BC—
connecting new ideologies with local expressions
kerri cleary 139
6. Stelae, Funerary Practice, and Group Identities in the Bronze
and Iron Ages of SW Iberia: a moyenne durée perspective
Dirk brandherm 179
7. Language Shift and Political Context in Late Bronze Age Ireland:
some implications of hillfort chronology
William O’Brien 201
8. Metal, Metalwork, and Specialization: the chemical composition
of British Bronze Age swords in context
Peter Bray 229
9. Emerging Settlement Monumentality in North Wales during
the Late Bronze and Iron Age: the case of Meillionydd
Raimund Karl 247
10. Ephemeral Abundance at Llanmaes: Exploring the residues and
resonances of an Earliest Iron Age midden and its associated
archaeological context in the Vale of Glamorgan
Adam Gwilt, Mark Lodwick, Jody Deacon, Nicholas
Wells, Richard Madgwick, & Tim Young 277
[ v ]

part II: Genetics
11. The Genetic Structure of the British Populations and their Surnames
Bruce J. Winney & Walter F. Bodmer 305
12. Archaeogenetic and Palaeogenetic Evidence for Metal Age Mobility
in Europe
Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, & Martin B. Richards 321
part III: Linguistics
13. Archaeology and Language Shift in Atlantic Europe
J. P. Mallory 345
14. The Question of a Hamito-Semitic Substratum in Insular Celtic
and Celtic from the West
Steve Hewitt 365
15. Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze
Age and Proto-Celtic
JOHN T. KOCH 383
16. Ancient Personal Names in the Iberian Peninsula and Parallels in
Celtic Inscribed Artefacts from Early Medieval Britain and Ireland
Fernando Fernández Palacios 429
17. ancillary study: Sound Change, the Italo-Celtic Linguistic
Unity, and the Italian Homeland of Celtic
Peter Schrijver 465
18. ancillary study: Celtic as Vasconized Indo-European?
Three structural arguments
Theo Vennemann 475
Index 495

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/celtic-from-the-west-3.html

http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-West-Atlantic-questions-language/dp/1785702270/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461364355&sr=1-1&keywords=Celtic+from+the+west+3

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/news-and-events/atlantic-europe-in-the-metal-ages-aema-database-launch/

Heber
05-04-2016, 07:20 AM
The great diversity of early BB burials in Iberia was the topic of Catriona Gibson's part of the talk she and Kerri Cleary gave at the Aberystwyth conference. Kerri Cleary covered Ireland. I didn't manage to get as much of it noted down as I would have liked, but the key point made was that the change to standardization comes c. 2200 BC, as I rather suspected. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3392-Celts-2015&p=118455&viewfull=1#post118455

Cartriona Gibsons paper is now available online.

Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between Iberia and the British Isles 2800-800 BC
By Catriona Gibson and John Koch

Europe's Atlantic Façade has long been treated as marginal to the formation of the European Bronze Age and the puzzle of the origin and early spread of the Indo-European languages. Until recently the idea that Atlantic Europe was still a wholly pre-Indo-European world throughout the Bronze Age remained plausible. Rapidly expanding evidence for the later prehistory and the pre-Roman languages of the West increasingly exclude that possibility. It is therefore time to refocus on a narrowing list of 'suspects' as possible archaeological proxies for the arrival of this great language family and emergence of its Celtic branch. This reconsideration inevitably throws penetrating new light on the Beaker Complex and the Atlantic Bronze Age to ask what else they brought with them. The studies presented here introduce diverse perspectives on the formation of later prehistoric Atlantic Europe and the implications of new evidence for interregional connections.

https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

Jean M
05-04-2016, 12:00 PM
Cartriona Gibsons paper is now available online.

No - that is the paper from Celtic in the West 2. I'm talking about the paper read at Aberystwyth, which will appear in Celtic from the West 3: Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period.

I have that book on order. It should be out now.

Heber
05-06-2016, 06:52 PM
.

I have that book on order. It should be out now.

The availability date on Amazon has shifted from 30th April to 30th June.

Celtic from the West 3: Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages questions of shared language Hardcover – June 30, 2016
by John T. Koch (Editor), Barry Cunliffe (Editor)

Jean M
05-06-2016, 07:03 PM
The availability date on Amazon has shifted from 30th April to 30th June.

So that's why it hasn't arrived.

Heber
05-17-2016, 11:17 PM
The availability date on Amazon has shifted from 30th April to 30th June.

Celtic from the West 3: Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages questions of shared language Hardcover – June 30, 2016
by John T. Koch (Editor), Barry Cunliffe (Editor)

Amazon's release date has slipped again.

Available for Pre-order. This item will be released on August 31, 2016.

Heber
05-30-2016, 09:13 AM
I noticed that the Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages database is now online and working.
Great fun doing searches and creating customised maps for Beaker Pots, Stelae, Metalwork, Burials, Ages, Individuals etc.

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/search/

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/database-faqs/

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/about-the-project/

With thousands of artefacts in the data base and more to be added it will become a great resource for anyone interested in Bronze Age, Iron Age Europe.

Heber
06-04-2016, 02:16 PM
I noticed that the Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages database is now online and working.
Great fun doing searches and creating customised maps for Beaker Pots, Stelae, Metalwork, Burials, Ages, Individuals etc.

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/search/

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/database-faqs/

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/about-the-project/

With thousands of artefacts in the data base and more to be added it will become a great resource for anyone interested in Bronze Age, Iron Age Europe.

Using the new AEMA database, if I search for Bell Beaker male burials in Bronze Age Ireland, Isles I get the following.

Central South East Ireland
9622

South Ireland
9623

Ireland
9624

Isles
9625

Potential future aDNA testing candidates.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-europe-in-the-metal-ages/?etslf=9484&eq=atlantic

Heber
06-04-2016, 02:43 PM
Here is a search of Stelae in Copper Age Iberia and Atlantic in The Broader Metal Ages

Copper Age SW Iberia
9626

Copper Age Iberia
9627

Metal Age Atlantic
9628

They appear to expand from SW Iberia to Iberia in Copper Age and move further West in Bronze Age. I suspect the database is not complete however early patterns are interesting.

Heber
08-11-2016, 02:32 PM
Duplicate

Heber
08-11-2016, 02:41 PM
Following several delays, Celtic from the West 3, Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages is finally published and available.

10920

https://twitter.com/AEMAP_UoW/status/763731098325090304

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/celtic-from-the-west-3.html

MacUalraig
08-12-2016, 10:05 AM
Browsed through it in the university bookshop just now but think I'm going to pass for now at £45 for a hardback copy.

Heber
08-12-2016, 01:06 PM
Following several delays, Celtic from the West 3, Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages is finally published and available.

10920

https://twitter.com/AEMAP_UoW/status/763731098325090304

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/celtic-from-the-west-3.html

These are the chapters which interest me:

Table of Contents

Introduction
BARRY CUNLIFFE & JOHN T. KOCH 1
part I: Archaeology
1. Behind the Warriors: Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic
Europe (3rd millennium BC)
Laure Salanova 13

3. Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use
and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period
catriona d. Gibson 83
4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111
5. Burial Practices in Ireland during the Late 3rd millennium BC—
connecting new ideologies with local expressions
kerri cleary 139
6. Stelae, Funerary Practice, and Group Identities in the Bronze
and Iron Ages of SW Iberia: a moyenne durée perspective
Dirk brandherm 179

part II: Genetics
11. The Genetic Structure of the British Populations and their Surnames
Bruce J. Winney & Walter F. Bodmer 305
12. Archaeogenetic and Palaeogenetic Evidence for Metal Age Mobility
in Europe
Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, & Martin B. Richards 321
part III: Linguistics
13. Archaeology and Language Shift in Atlantic Europe
J. P. Mallory 345

15. Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze
Age and Proto-Celtic
JOHN T. KOCH 383

Index 495

razyn
08-12-2016, 01:11 PM
Browsed through it in the university bookshop just now but think I'm going to pass for now at £45 for a hardback copy.
I just clicked on Heber's second link (Oxbow Books), and it shows a "Special Price: £33.75." If that helps.

Jean M
08-25-2016, 06:23 PM
My copy of Celtic from the West 3 has just arrived.

Have just flicked through the contribution by Pala, Soares and Richards. Very disappointing. Nothing new, and if anything it backtracks in common sense from the position of Martin Richards at the conference, probably because Pala is the lead author. She is still hanging on desperately to ideas that most other geneticists have given up on. She misconstrues a number of things in support of her pet ideas, insisting on calling ANE "South-West Asian" for example, and making statements about R1b that will make your hair stand on end folks.

Jean M
08-25-2016, 06:43 PM
On the other hand the contribution by linguist Peter Schrijver is useful stuff. He comes down solidly in favour of an Italo-Celtic node and makes the logical deduction that Celtic developed in geographical proximity to the Italic branch. He argues for a Celtic homeland in NW Italy, which I don't buy because of

The linguistic presence in NW Italy of Ligurian.
The Proto-Celtic links to pre-Germanic.


Vennemann is his usual potty self.

O'Brien politely begs to differ from Mallory, The Orgins of the Irish (2013), p. 278 in the latter's suggestion that the Celtic language arrived in Ireland with hillforts c. 1000 BC. The hillforts generally spring from a Middle Bronze Age background. He sees them as related to political instability, warrior culture, regional identities, etc.

In their introduction, Koch and Cunliffe have taken on board the latest aDNA evidence, including Cassidy et al 2015 for Ireland.

Now settling down to read the Gibson paper.

Baltimore1937
08-25-2016, 10:08 PM
My take, at least partially from David Anthony's "Horse..." book, is that the Italo-Celtic split took place in the Carpathian Basin (Hungary, etc). The Celts went up the Danube, etc., and the Italic branch went westward into northern Italy, etc. That could also explain why FTDNA My Origins gives a few of us a rather large percent of "Southern Europe" for seemingly no good reason.

Jean M
08-25-2016, 10:41 PM
Catriona Gibson, Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period. The title is the same as that of the paper she read in April 2014 at the AEMA one-day forum in Cardiff, but may well include material from her continuing research since then, some of which was covered in a paper read in October 2015.

Gibson neatly places a stick of dynamite under the edifice of previous supposition on this topic. Main points:


There are some single graves in the late Neolithic. Some collective or communal burial continued into the Copper Age and beyond. So the picture is not as clear-cut as previously thought i.e. that single graves first arrive in the Copper Age/Beaker period.
Re-use of megalithic monuments in the Bell Beaker period was often seen in the past as robbing, deliberate destruction, or a newly arrived group claiming control of territory. But more often that not this re-use appears to respect previous monuments and their occupants.
Bell Beaker burials are often placed in peripheral parts of monuments, or in new structures added.
Some BB inhumations in re-used monuments were complete crouched inhumations with individual grave goods, but often they were deposited as partially or fully disarticulated.
Following Bell Beaker re-use, some megalithic monuments were formally closed through deliberate blocking of the entrance.
Megalithic monuments with Beaker burials are not ubiquitous throughout Atlantic Europe, but form distinct zones. There is a pattern of sites near the coast and navigable river arteries (see map below).
The dates suggest two periods of megalithic re-use: at the start of the Bell Beaker period, and a flurry around 2450/2400-2250 cal. BC, the latter often coinciding with their dramatic closure.
The closure of the monuments also roughly coincides with the abandonment of many of the large enclosed settlements in Iberia.


This is her map showing the locations of megalithic monuments re-used for Bell Beaker burials.

11176

Jean M
08-26-2016, 12:45 PM
I have now read the introduction more carefully. Koch and Cunliffe gently back-peddle a degree or two. Main points:


The PIE homeland. Though not stated, Koch adopted a neutral stance on this to accommodate Cunliffe's preference for Renfrew's theory of PIE. They now accept (with caveats) that the recent flurry of aDNA papers supports the IE steppe homeland, but tactfully stress that said papers prove Renfrew right in two ways: firstly showing that farming was carried into Europe via a major population turnover; secondly showing that there was no major population turnover in the Iron Age.
The PC homeland. They interpret the latter as evidence that PIE evolved into Celtic in situ across western Europe without a secondary homeland. They explain that Koch's suggestion that PC actually developed in Iberia was not identical with the overall Celtic-from-the-West proposal, but just "a narrow possibility within the scope of the general proposition." Koch appears to have abandoned this in favour of the more nebulous thinking of Garrett 2006 in which all the Indo-European branches were formed "from a shallowly-differentiated Late PIE dialect continuum".
Celtic from the West formulated as "The PIE parent language reached Atlantic Europe as PIE and then evolved into Celtic there. It did not undergo the linguistic innovations defining Celtic (such as the weakening of *p) in some secondary homeland (such as central Europe) and then move west in a secondary migration."
Atlantic Bronze Age. Key idea of Celtic-from-the-West idea is that "Proto-Celtic had been the lingua franca of Atlantic Europe before the Bronze-Iron Transition."
The linguistic layer-cake, with one wave of IE following another, that I mentioned in Blood of the Celts (and in AJ in relation to Slavs following Balts following something closer to PIE), is echoed in the Koch and Cunliife introduction as a way of explaining language replacement without mass migration or a "precipitous elite dominance".
Proto-Celtic dates pre- Iron Age. The archaeological evidence that Iberia broke contact with Atlantic Europe c. 900 BC and Ireland became isolated c. 700 BC, yet both contained Celtic speakers when we enter history is re-stated. Once we have recorded evidence of Celtic, it is not the same Celtic language everywhere, but a family of related languages, so its parent was older.


By formulating the theory in this way, they are less vulnerable to contrary evidence. They can accommodate the place-name evidence of PIE/Old European place-names in Iberia and the British Isles, and my suggestion in Blood of the Celts that Celtic moved south to Galicia along the Atlantic route in the Atlantic Bronze Age. It does not have to move north from Iberia. It just has to be present in the Atlantic Bronze Age.

They bravely include in the volume the two linguistic papers I mentioned above, by Schrijver and Vennemann, neither of which supports an Iberian homeland for PC or adopts the Garrett 2006 position. A secondary homeland is envisaged by both.

The major problems that I see are:

Genetic. The similarity between Bronze Age populations and modern European ones in containing all three major components of the present European gene pool does not rule out subsequent migration from place to place within Europe by populations who already have all three of said components. These migrations will just be less easy to track and attention is liable to turn to Y-DNA haplogroups and/or the use of rare "trace elements" so to speak, for example in distinguishing between Romano-British and Ango-Saxon.
Linguistic. They are still stuck with the fact that Proto-Celtic shows contact with Pre-Germanic and either split from a common Proto-Italo-Celtic node or had early close contact with Proto-Italic. Geographically it cannot have sprung up anywhere along the Atlantic facade.


However the conclusion in that Proto-Celtic must have existed prior to the Iron Age is sound and well-founded.

Dubhthach
08-26-2016, 12:51 PM
isn't the contact with "Pre-Germanic" not in the direction of Proto-Celtic/Celtic -> Pre-Germanic eg. loanwords from Celtic into Pre-Germanic which are then affected by sound changes of Grimms Law?

I didn't think there was any evidence of borrowings other way around (Pre-Germanic -> Celtic), so in case of Celtic -> Pre-Germanic, one could argue this is knock on affect of Iron age (eg. contacts with Urnfield/Hallstat etc.)

Jean M
08-26-2016, 01:02 PM
isn't the contact with "Pre-Germanic" not in the direction of Proto-Celtic/Celtic -> Pre-Germanic eg. loanwords from Celtic into Pre-Germanic which are then affected by sound changes of Grimms Law?

I didn't think there was any evidence of borrowings other way around (Pre-Germanic -> Celtic), so in case of Celtic -> Pre-Germanic, one could argue this is knock on affect of Iron age (eg. contacts with Urnfield/Hallstat etc.)

The contact with Germanic is apparently of two types, the earlier of which I still have not got a grip on. (I need to read up on it.) The later type is indeed the obviously Iron Age borrowings from Celtic into Proto-Germanic that we can position in time and place as contact La Tene to Jastorf.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 02:28 PM
Chapter 1: Laure Salanova, Behind the Warriors: Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic Europe (3rd millennium BC) is available in full from academia.edu https://www.academia.edu/26779296/Behind_the_warriors_Bell_Beakers_and_identities_in _Atlantic_Europe_third_millennium_B.C. and Researchgate.

So I will just post here her map of northern France showing the location of collective BB burials (red dots) and single graves with Bell Beaker grave goods (black rectangles), to facilitate comparison with the map from Catriona Gibson above, showing BB re-use of megalithic monuments. As you can see, both types shown by Salanova tend to be close to the coast or navigable rivers. So for me, this indicates the routes used by Bell Beaker makers, rather than just one type of burial favoured along migration/trade routes.

The pattern, as previously recognised, leans more to collective burial in the west and single burial in the east, but with some overlap.

11184

razyn
08-26-2016, 05:11 PM
The pattern, as previously recognised, leans more to collective burial in the west and single burial in the east, but with some overlap.
[/ATTACH]
To me, the pattern in that map (of the black rectangles) leans to the pottery tail's having wagged the cultural dog.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 06:55 PM
On reflection, I think I should draw attention as well to Salanova's very useful map showing the relationship between the Grand-Pressigny flint workshop and three All-Over Ornamented (AOO) beaker burials, with features suggestive of CW/Single Grave Culture. I may have to drop my opposition to the "fusion corridor"! Or at least these provide evidence for some coming and going between the Rhine and the West.

11207


Three graves from northern France give rise to the question of the existence of traders, which could explain the long-distance exchanges recorded during the 3rd millennium BC (Fig. 1.9). These three burials share some particularities that distinguish them from other Bell Beaker graves. They contain men or women buried in oval or rectangular pits in an extended position, oriented according to an east-west axis, similar to what is observed in the Corded Wares and Single Grave Cultures. Surrounding one of these graves, located near Poitiers at La Folie, a circular ditch was found, in which postholes indicated the existence of a wooden palisade, similar to examples from the Lower Rhine Valley (Tchérémissinoff et al. 2011). In these three burials, the grave goods are invariably composed of All-Over-Ornamented (AOO) beakers, with slender profiles and cord- or spatula-impressed decorations, and of blades or daggers composed of yellow flint from the Grand-Pressigny region (Indre-et-Loire, France). The two AOO graves from the Paris Basin (Jablines and Ciry-Salsogne) are dated from 2570-2450 cal BC (Salanova 2011). All of the characteristics of these graves refer to foreign burial practices, from their architecture to their grave goods, which find comparisons in the Netherlands.... These graves are geographically located on the road that linked the Grand-Pressigny flint workshops to the Lower Rhine Valley, where daggers and blades imported from the Grand-Pressigny region have been recorded and were frequently included as grave goods associated with AOO beakers (Lanting & Waals 1976; Delcourt-Vlaeminck 2004). These three graves could therefore reflect an ethnic identity, including foreign traders in charge of another exchange network, linking the Atlantic coast to the Rhine Valley. This network did not remain thereafter; importations stopped at approximately 2400 cal BC, probably being replaced by exchanges of copper daggers.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 07:18 PM
Chapter 2: Stuart Needham, The Lost Cultures of the Halberd Bearers: a non-Beaker ideology in later 3rd millennium Atlantic Europe.

Needham has written an entire paper on halberds without telling us what they were for, apart from one mention that they were weapons. This wraps in fog his argument that they spread among those peoples opposed to the Bell Beaker people. He goes to great lengths to show that the pattern of find spots for Copper Age halberds seems generally to avoid Bell Beaker sites, as though the halberds belonged to non-Bell Beaker people. So far so good. He calculates that the earliest halberds are those of Remedello c. 3000 BC. Is a picture fitting together? But then we are left wondering why people opposed to the Bell Beaker types became fond of the halberd. :\

I am no expert on weaponry, but I happen to know that in historic times, the halberd was used as a weapon of infantry against mounted men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

David Mc
08-26-2016, 08:36 PM
Chapter 2: Stuart Needham, The Lost Cultures of the Halberd Bearers: a non-Beaker ideology in later 3rd millennium Atlantic Europe.

Needham has written an entire paper on halberds without telling us what they were for, apart from one mention that they were weapons. This wraps in fog his argument that they spread among those peoples opposed to the Bell Beaker people. He goes to great lengths to show that the pattern of find spots for Copper Age halberds seems generally to avoid Bell Beaker sites, as though the halberds belonged to non-Bell Beaker people. So far so good. He calculates that the earliest halberds are those of Remedello c. 3000 BC. Is a picture fitting together? But then we are left wondering why people opposed to the Bell Beaker types became fond of the halberd. :\

I am no expert on weaponry, but I happen to know that in historic times, the halberd was used as a weapon of infantry against mounted men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

While I would love to agree with you on this point (as I am one of those who advocates that mounted warfare was likely a component in Bell Beaker success), the later halberd was a pole-arm and very much used in the way you've described. The early halberds were much shorter, though, weren't they? If they are as short as I have thought they were they would likely have been used more like a hand-axe or tomahawk. But I could be wrong about lengths.

David Mc
08-26-2016, 08:56 PM
One halberd was found with its haft intact in Carn, Co. Mayo. It was about 1.2 meters long, suggesting that it was used in more of an axe-like manner (although it's still a big weapon). On the other hand we have rock art from Val Fontalba, Mont Bego which suggests they might sometimes have been attached to much longer shafts. The latter could very likely have been effective against mounted opponents.

11208

David Mc
08-26-2016, 09:06 PM
Here's an interesting article on early Bronze Age halberds by Ronan O'Flaherty. I haven't yet figured out how to upload articles in the archive, so I'll just link to it here:

https://www.academia.edu/1640582/A_weapon_of_choice_-_experiments_with_replica_EBA_halberd

Jean M
08-26-2016, 09:15 PM
Here's an interesting article on early Bronze Age halberds by Ronan O'Flaherty. I haven't yet figured out how to upload articles in the archive, so I'll just link to it here:

Thanks. I'll put it in the Vault shortly.

[Added] Done.

Heber
08-26-2016, 11:01 PM
Received my copy.
Here are some initial notes on the format in bold.
Where the paper is available on Academia.com I provide a link.
Looking forward to reading it and providing feedback.

Celtic from the West 3
Celtic from the West 3: Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages*The Celtic languages and groups called Keltoi (i.e. ‘Celts’) emerge into our written records at the pre-Roman Iron Age. The impetus for this book is to explore from the perspectives of three disciplines—archaeology, genetics, and linguistics—the background in later European prehistory to these developments. There is a traditional scenario, according to which, Celtic speech and the associated group identity came in to being during the Early Iron Age in the north Alpine zone and then rapidly spread across central and western Europe. This idea of ‘Celtogenesis’ remains deeply entrenched in scholarly and popular thought. But it has become increasingly difficult to reconcile with recent discoveries pointing towards origins in the deeper past. It should no longer be taken for granted that Atlantic Europe during the 2nd and 3rd millennia BC were pre-Celtic or even pre-Indo-European. The explorations in Celtic from the West 3 are drawn together in this spirit, continuing two earlier volumes in the influential series.Table of Contents

Introduction
BARRY CUNLIFFE & JOHN T. KOCH 1
part I: Archaeology

General idea that PIE came from the East (Steppes), Celtic from the West (Atlantic) possibly Iberia with the expansion of Bell Beaker.

1. Behind the Warriors: Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic
Europe (3rd millennium BC)
Laure Salanova 13

https://www.academia.edu/26779296/Behind_the_warriors_Bell_Beakers_and_identities_in _Atlantic_Europe_third_millennium_B.C._


2. The Lost Cultures of the Halberd Bearers: a non-Beaker ideology in
later 3rd millennium Atlantic Europe
stuart needham 40

Several detailed maps of Ireland and Britain showing Halberd / Beaker boundary.

3. Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use
and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period
catriona d. Gibson 83

Clear distribution of Bell Beaker graves in Megalithic context in Atlantic Europe.
Distribution of megalithic monuments in atlantic europe with evidence of reuse in the Beaker period.

4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111

Examples of beautiful gold discs and lunulae from Isles and Portugal.

5. Burial Practices in Ireland during the Late 3rd millennium BC—
connecting new ideologies with local expressions
kerri cleary 139

Detailed maps of Bell Beaker burials in Ireland including discoveries in megalithic monuments.

6. Stelae, Funerary Practice, and Group Identities in the Bronze
and Iron Ages of SW Iberia: a moyenne durée perspective
Dirk brandherm 179

Detailed set of useful maps of SW Iberia showing distribution of anthromorphic stelae and Tartessian inscriptions.

7. Language Shift and Political Context in Late Bronze Age Ireland:
some implications of hillfort chronology
William O’Brien 201

Detailed maps and tables of 100 prehistoric hill forts in Ireland showing location of 6 excavated sites.*


8. Metal, Metalwork, and Specialization: the chemical composition
of British Bronze Age swords in context
Peter Bray 229

Detailed distribution maps of European copper axes, daggers and halberds in metal ages showing alloy type.

9. Emerging Settlement Monumentality in North Wales during
the Late Bronze and Iron Age: the case of Meillionydd
Raimund Karl 247

Detailed maps and sketches of settlements in North Wales in the Metal Ages.

10. Ephemeral Abundance at Llanmaes: Exploring the residues and
resonances of an Earliest Iron Age midden and its associated
archaeological context in the Vale of Glamorgan
Adam Gwilt, Mark Lodwick, Jody Deacon, Nicholas
Wells, Richard Madgwick, & Tim Young 277

Sketches and detailed inventory of findings in Vale of Glamorgan Iron Age midden. Interesting artistic interpretation of findings.

- [ v ]

part II: Genetics
11. The Genetic Structure of the British Populations and their Surnames
Bruce J. Winney & Walter F. Bodmer 305

Detailed maps showing fineSTRUCTURE clustering of POBI samples and selected surname analysis.

12. Archaeogenetic and Palaeogenetic Evidence for Metal Age Mobility
in Europe
Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, & Martin B. Richards 321
part III: Linguistics

Genome wide SNP analysis of global populations.*
PC Analysis depicting relationships between mtDNA haplogroups frequency variation in modern day West Eurasian populations and samples from Early Neolithic to Early Bronze Age showing West to East cline.
Detailed analysis of mtDNA H and the Brotherton and Brandt papers.
The team had access to unpublished work from David Reich.

13. Archaeology and Language Shift in Atlantic Europe
J. P. Mallory 345

Explanation of language shift.

14. The Question of a Hamito-Semitic Substratum in Insular Celtic
and Celtic from the West
Steve Hewitt 365

Detailed tables and map of Celtic and Phoenician contact zones.

15. Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze
Age and Proto-Celtic
JOHN T. KOCH 383

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

Detailed maps and tables of Atlantic and SW Iberian zones showing distribution of metalwork and boundary between Indo European and Non Indo European languages.
References Brotherton, Haak, Allentoft, Cassidy, Pala, Winney and Bodmer.

16. Ancient Personal Names in the Iberian Peninsula and Parallels in
Celtic Inscribed Artefacts from Early Medieval Britain and Ireland
Fernando Fernández Palacios 429

Maps of early personal and surnames in Iberia.

17. ancillary study: Sound Change, the Italo-Celtic Linguistic
Unity, and the Italian Homeland of Celtic
Peter Schrijver 465

Proposal for a Proto Italo Celtic node.*

18. ancillary study: Celtic as Vasconized Indo-European?
Three structural arguments
Theo Vennemann 475

Comparison of Celtic from the West and Vasconic Theory.
Proposal for Celtic as most Vasconized branch of Indo European.

Index 495

Gravetto-Danubian
08-26-2016, 11:31 PM
On reflection, I think I should draw attention as well to Salanova's very useful map showing the relationship between the Grand-Pressigny flint workshop and three All-Over Ornamented (AOO) beaker burials, with features suggestive of CW/Single Grave Culture. I may have to drop my opposition to the "fusion corridor"! Or at least these provide evidence for some coming and going between the Rhine and the West.

11207

I suggest you do ;)
It's far more feasible than the "pre- Yamnaya sailors" scenario you're still propounding in the "Gimbutas.." thread

rms2
08-26-2016, 11:37 PM
. . .

18. ancillary study: Celtic as Vasconized Indo-European?
Three structural arguments
Theo Vennemann 475

Comparison of Celtic from the West and Vasconic Theory.
Proposal for Celtic as most Vasconized branch of Indo European.

Index 495

Oh, boy. Guess he's still at it.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 11:41 PM
I suggest you do ;)
It's far more feasible than the "pre- Yamnaya sailors" scenario you're still propounding in the "Gimbutas.." thread

I see I hooked a fish with that fly of mine. :biggrin1:

Jean M
08-26-2016, 11:43 PM
Oh, boy. Guess he's still at it.

Indeed. Never flags.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-27-2016, 12:18 AM
Following several delays, Celtic from the West 3, Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages is finally published and available.

10920

https://twitter.com/AEMAP_UoW/status/763731098325090304

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/celtic-from-the-west-3.html


No E-book available. Rather odd for a 2016 book.

Jean M
08-27-2016, 12:43 AM
Chapter 4: Thorough paper by Timberlake, but I don't think anyone will want me to go into detail as there is nothing earth-shattering.

Chapter 5: Kerri Cleary, Burial Practices in Ireland during the Late 3rd millennium BC—connecting new ideologies with local expressions

I'm calling down blessings on the head of Kerri Cleary. The title does not cover the whole of the content here. She provides a useful potted history of prehistoric transport in Ireland, covering boats, wheels, causeways, cart pieces, yokes and horses. She follows that with an introduction to the Bell Beaker culture in Ireland, before plunging into the title topic. She covers re-use of Neolithic monuments, the role of wedge tombs, megalithic cists and recently discovered pit burials. She revaluates the dating and/or cultural affiliation of some burials. New radiocarbon dates for various sites. Chronology: the number of confirmed BB burials is low until c. 2200/2150 BC.

Jean M
08-27-2016, 03:45 PM
Chapter 6. Dirk Brandherm, Stelae, Funerary Practice, and Group Identities in the Bronze and Iron Ages of SW Iberia: a moyenne durée perspective

Wow! This was a good talk and is even better beefed up as a paper. In the talk he aimed at shredding the link made by John Koch between Tartessos and the stelae with writing in the SW palaeohispanic script. He did a very effective job in my view (see below).

But here we have in addition a lot of interesting detail that supports the idea of Urnfield influence much further along the coast of Iberia than is usually shown in the standard maps. We have in SW Iberia in the Late Bronze Age a sudden end to inhumation plus Urnfield-type pottery and a Proto-Villanova razor. There are also cremation burials in urns. (I postulate in Blood of the Celts that Ligurian entered Iberia and spread along the coast in the Late Bronze Age.)

He also notes links with the Atlantic Late Bronze Age of NW Europe, such as the Herzsprung shield depictions on stelae, like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age#/media/File:Estela_de_Logrosan_(Caceres-Espa%C3%B1a).png

In the Early Iron Age there is a dramatic resurgence of inhumations in SW Iberia, closely resembling the burials of the Middle Bronze Age in the same region. (This is in stark contrast to burial customs in the Guadalquivir basin, considered the home of Tartessos.) Along with these SW burials came the re-emergence of decorated grave slabs and funerary stelae harking back to those of the Middle Bronze Age, the big difference being that those of the Early Iron Age carried inscriptions. It is in the SW that the overwhelming majority of the inscriptions in the SW script occur. Hence Brandherm's contention that these inscriptions have nothing to do with Tartessos.

Jean M
08-27-2016, 08:44 PM
Chapter 2: Stuart Needham, The Lost Cultures of the Halberd Bearers: a non-Beaker ideology in later 3rd millennium Atlantic Europe.

Needham has written an entire paper on halberds without telling us what they were for, apart from one mention that they were weapons. This wraps in fog his argument that they spread among those peoples opposed to the Bell Beaker people.

And now chapter 8: Peter Bray, Metal, Metalwork, and Specialization: the chemical composition of British Bronze Age swords in context

Explodes Needham's argument without even trying. The 3rd millenium BC halberds of Iberia were 91.7 % of Iberian copper. The remainder were made of copper from Ross Island, famously a Bell Beaker site. The halberds found in Britain were 76.7% made of copper from Ross Island. The halberds of France were 66.7 % of Iberian copper, 16.7 % of Ross Island copper and 16.7% of more local copper. Where are the enemies of Bell Beaker smuggling weapons from Remedello for their comrades in the Resistance? Hmmm.

Heber
09-04-2016, 08:42 PM
Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages explores the development of language in Atlantic Europe (Britain, Ireland, northwest France, western Iberia) from 2900BC to the arrival of Latin (AD 400)....

The project makes extensive use of GIS in compiling scientific evidence and a huge body of historical, linguistic and archaeological data, together with object metadata from the National Museum of Wales....

The chronological parameters are broad, from early metallurgy in the region (c. 2800 BC) until the transformation of the Ancient Celtic languages (c. AD 500). The geographical span is the Atlantic Façade, from Scotland in the north to Ireland in the west and Spain in the south....

Researchers can use the AEMA Database to create their own customised maps from the thousands of artifacts recorded in the database.]

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/en/

http://pin.it/2xlhlnt


11391

11392

11392

11393

alan
09-05-2016, 12:09 AM
It seems linguistically impossible for Celtic to have spread from the west. Celtic shares a load of core vocab with Germanic from the pre-proto phase of both languages. These words are not known in the Italic branch. So if there was a Celto-Italic zone at one time, the part of it that led to Celtic was very intimately interacting with the pre-proto-Germanic zone while the rest was not. Its close to impossible to see that contact as having taken place west of the Rhine.

razyn
09-05-2016, 12:48 AM
Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages explores the development of language in Atlantic Europe (Britain, Ireland, northwest France, western Iberia) from 2900BC to the arrival of Latin (AD 400)....
The list of investigators (finding of which was not simple) kind of looks as if the old Celtic from the West crowd since 2013 dropped Oppenheimer; didn't substitute anyone from the pesky field of genetics who has actually learned something in the past decade; and added on some GIS guys from King's College.
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/artshums/depts/ddh/research/projects/current/atlantic.aspx
It may be a decent database, and I like new maps of old stuff. But they have been motivated by the same agenda (about Celts) for 15 years or so. I think I'd as soon stick with JeanM, she seems more agile about noticing when the genetic evidence points somewhere new.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 01:53 AM
The list of investigators (finding of which was not simple) kind of looks as if the old Celtic from the West crowd since 2013 dropped Oppenheimer; didn't substitute anyone from the pesky field of genetics who has actually learned something in the past decade; and added on some GIS guys from King's College.
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/artshums/depts/ddh/research/projects/current/atlantic.aspx
It may be a decent database, and I like new maps of old stuff. But they have been motivated by the same agenda (about Celts) for 15 years or so. I think I'd as soon stick with JeanM, she seems more agile about noticing when the genetic evidence points somewhere new.

Am i recalling incorrectly, or was Oppenheimer starting his own DNA lab ?

Heber
09-05-2016, 12:18 PM
Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (3rd millennium BC)

Laure Salanova

The typology of the material culture, circulation of know-how, preferences regarding settlement and mobility patterns reveal a coherent Atlantic entity, in continuity with the previous periods and providing the basis of the Bronze Age Complex....

Along the Atlantic façade of Europe, a coherent Bell Beaker entity has been recognized, defining a regional identity that prefigures the Atlantic Bronze Age Complex....

However, the similarities described along the Atlantic coast, which involve the circulation of know-how and of craftsmen, could effectively demonstrate the existence of supra-regional languages, shared at least by this group of specialists....

https://www.academia.edu/26779296/Behind_the_warriors_Bell_Beakers_and_identities_in _Atlantic_Europe_third_millennium_B.C._

11399

11398

1.10. Distribution of the main regional Bell Beaker pottery styles. From Salanova 2005, modified.

Heber
09-05-2016, 12:34 PM
I am posting these recent papers here as they are relevant to Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages.

Bell Beaker connections along the Atlantic façade: the gold ornaments from Tablada del Rudrón, Burgos, Spain
Andrew P. Fitzpatrick

School of Archaeology and Ancient History, University of Leicester, University Road, Leicester, GB-LE1 7RH, United Kingdom [email protected]
Germán Delibes de Castro and Elisa Guerra Doce
Dpto. de Prehistoria, Arqueología, Antropología Social y CC.TT. Historiográficas, Universidad de Valladolid, Plaza del Campus, s/n, 47011 Valladolid, Spain [email protected]; [email protected]
Javier Velasco Vázquez
Dpto. de Ciencias Históricas, Universidad de Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, C/Pérez del Toro, 1, 35004 Las Palmas, Spain [email protected]

Abstract
The gold ornaments from a well-furnished burial in the Bell Beaker tumulus at Tablada del Rudrón, Burgos, in northern Spain are very similar to ornaments best known in Britain and Ireland. The insular ornaments, which were either earrings, tress rings or parts of headdresses, have been found in well-furnished graves of the 24- 23rd century BC and were symbols of high status. Although the Tablada del Rudrón ornaments are similar to finds from England, they are not identical and their decoration is related to those on a different type of object found in Ireland. This fusion of ‘similar but different’ reflects the nature of the Bell networks along the Atlantic façade.

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11401

http://www.archaeopress.com/Public/download.asp?id=%7B0D06803F-CC8D-48DC-8842-668007DF2505%7D

Heber
09-05-2016, 12:42 PM
Salt and Beakers in the third millennium BC

Elisa Guerra Doce
Dpto. de Prehistoria, Arqueología, Antropología Social y CC.TT. Historiográficas, Universidad de Valladolid, Plaza del Campus, s/n, 47011 Valladolid, Spain [email protected]

Abstract
Salt was, and still is, a crucial element for the survival of agro-pastoral societies. Apart from its use as a condiment and as a dietary supplement for humans and livestock, it plays a very important role in the preservation of foodstuffs and in a range of industries (leather tanning, cloth dyeing, among others). An increasing number of sites confirm that salt was intensively exploited in prehistoric Europe from the Neolithic onwards, and it thus became an item of exchange in the trade networks. This paper focuses on the production of salt and its socio-economic implications during the third millennium BC. It is argued here that Beaker elites might have assumed control over its circulation in Western Europe. We also suggest some hypothesis about the relationship between trade routes and the distribution of the Beaker phenomenon in Europe.

http://www.archaeopress.com/Public/download.asp?id=%7B0D06803F-CC8D-48DC-8842-668007DF2505%7D

11402

Heber
09-05-2016, 12:54 PM
The role of flint arrowheads in Bell Beaker groups
of the Central Iberian Peninsula

Patricia Ríos Mendoza
Dpto. de Prehistoria y Arqueología, Universidad Autónoma de Madrid,
C/ Tomás y Valiente, 1, 28049 Madrid, Spain
[email protected]

Abstract
From the early years of this century, after the rise of processualists analysis and explanations, publications and conferences about Bell Beaker clearly perceived the abandonment of the idea of ‘Bell Beaker culture’ as a phenomenon. Scholars start speaking rather of Bell Beaker ideas with different backgrounds and cultural traditions. It is from then they begin to wonder about the reasons that lead each area to adopt certain elements
of the Bell Beaker set and others not.
In this sense we believe that only in recent years the form of understand the archaeological Bell Beaker record is starting to change, giving rise to new interpretations that enrich research after years of analyzing contexts and materials conditioned or subject to exchange prestige objects ideas looking for an originating focus and a global European explanation.
In this article, we try to follow the lead of these new ways of analyzing, with a first approach to the role that flint arrowheads could play in Madrid region, taking into account not only its absence on the Bell Beaker set, but the technological lithic development of chalcolithic societies in this area, and the different household and funerary contexts they have been recovered. The goal is to propose possible answers to the question: why some
things in the Bell Beaker set are adopted and others not? And a first step arises in the study area from the observation of the absence of flint arrowheads, however present in many other areas near and far. Why do not appear flint arrowheads in the Bell Beaker set of the region of Madrid?
The presence of flint arrowheads has not been much debated or for Bell Beaker researchers. The most important studies on the subject have been focused on the variability of these objects in relation to European Bell Beaker variants.
We aim to show the interpretative and analytical possibilities that can be derived by the flint arrowheads of Bell Beaker contexts in Madrid region, taking into account a wide range of new data that we know from the archaeological record for the regional Late Prehistory.

http://www.archaeopress.com/Public/download.asp?id=%7B0D06803F-CC8D-48DC-8842-668007DF2505%7D

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Jean M
09-05-2016, 04:37 PM
Am i recalling incorrectly, or was Oppenheimer starting his own DNA lab ?

He is not trained in that field. You may be thinking of Martin Richards, whose aDNA lab at Huddersfield certainly should be up and working now.

Heber
09-05-2016, 08:01 PM
The lost cultures of the Halberd Bearers: A non Beaker ideology in later third millennium Atlantic Europe.
Stuart Needham

"Although no uniform inception horizon may be identified, unlike the case for the primary Beaker package, nevertheless the Atlantic family of halberds has sufficient linkages to suggest that it too represented some kind of network of affiliation through much of Atlantic Europe during the last centuries of the 3rd millennium BC...."

"The pace of discoveries of Beaker sites is such that their regional distributions are developing at an alarming rate..."

There are several detailed distribution maps of Ireland, Britain, France and Iberia showing separate zones for Halberd and Bell Beaker. Bell Beaker would appear to be more Maritime and Fluvial whereas Halberd appears to be inland. The majority of Halberds are found in the Atlantic zone with the highest concentration of finds in Ireland. The Halberds generally belong to Copper and Early Bronze and Bell Beaker to Early to Mid Bronze Age.

11409

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Heber
09-05-2016, 09:31 PM
3. Closed for Business or Cultural Change? Tracing the re-use and final blocking of megalithic tombs during the Beaker period.
Catriona Gibson 83

The continued use or reuse of early megalithic monuments for Beaker burials discussed in chapters 1 and 5, is the main focus for Catriona Gibson.
The evidence considered is mainly from from the Iberian Penisula, where numerous recently obtained, high quality AMS dates now reveal a recurrent sequence implying an ideological shift marked by a conspicuous and intentional transformation of the ritual landscape. In many examples, formal closure of Megalithic tombs coincides with the abandonment of enclosed settlements in the same area at the same time of intensifying exchange networks during the later 3rd millennium BC, about 400 years after the earliest Beakers in the lower Tagus.

11417

Clear distribution of Bell Beaker graves in Megalithic context in Atlantic Europe.

11418

Distribution of megalithic monuments in atlantic europe with evidence of reuse in the Beaker period.

11419

Heber
09-06-2016, 12:28 PM
4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111

Examples of beautiful gold discs and lunulae from Isles and Portugal.



Chapter 4 concerns the arrival of metallurgy and the Beaker Package in western Britain.
AMong several early mining sites in Ceredigion, Simon Timberlake gives special attention to the Copa Hill workings at Cwmystwyth.
New evidence, including AMS dates with Bayesian modelling, favour an "out of Ireland" model for the incoming technology and new people in the sequence Ireland > Central Wales > North Wales > NW England. Copper prospecting began at Cwmystwyth in the period 2200 - 1900 BC, before activity had ceased at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, and before full scale production began at Great Orme near Llandudno on Wales North coast. This account is consistent with the testimony of the 19th century find, near Cwmystwyth Pontrhydygroes, of a halberd of Ai copper of Ross Island provenance. THe Banc Tynddol gold sun-disc was found near The Copa Hill site in a probable grave. There are Atlantic parallels of the late 3rd millennium BC for this object, especially looking towards Armorica and Iberia. The disc can be seen as evidence for mobile metal-using newcomers arriving around the time that mining began there....


THe association with the "Bell Beaker package" however is clear here, as it was at the Ross Island mine although most of the dates from the working of the Cwmystwyth mine are later. What we are probably looking at therefore is the likely 'signature' of its discoverer.

Banc Tynddol, Wales
11429

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banc_Ty%27ndd%C3%B4l_sun-disc

Monaghan, Ireland
11430

Stonehenge, England
11431

Cabeceiras de Basto, Portugal
11432

alan
09-06-2016, 01:34 PM
The far western stuff is interesting but it does not explain the fact there are no steppe genes or L11 derivtive yDNA in central and western Europe pre-2800BC or so in the ancient DNA record while ancient DNA does show this presence in all tested samples in the same zone after 2500BC. Any model for the beaker story has to explain how this influx of eastern genetics (still unknown in SW Europe in immediate pre-beaker copper age samples in Italy, France and Iberia) appeared across Europe in the period 2800-2000BC (albeit the timing for each area is hazy). Any model that fails to explain an eastern genetic influx across the whole of beaker Europe by at least the end of the beaker period is missing something key. So a simple out of the west model is kind of useless.

We all have our opinions on how eastern genes got west (seemingly pretty well everywhere by the end of the beaker era). My own is that the initial beaker inventers were basically middle Neolithic Iberian farmers with a small influx of metallurgists ultimately from SE Europe but not steppic in origin. Same as the Remedello and Languedoc people. My feeling is that this early western beaker using group expanded (interestingly during a severe drought period) spread into southern France and through some passes into central Europe c. 2500BC then intermarried with local groups there. The central European groups they contacted included L11/P312 horse riders (human bone evidence).

At some point, probably very rapidly, these local male lineages (with Iberian wives) decided to cut out the middle man and usurped their Iberian 'fathers in law's' newly founded central European extension of their trade network. Over the period of a century this P312 group extended north. It also slowly penetrated towards the south and west and by the late beaker stage it had taken over even the heartlands of the original non-R1b beaker pot users in SW Europe. I think Sion perfectly shows this sort of process. Pre-beaker copper workers (in a zone with Remedello symbols) were 'replenished' by contacts with Iberian beaker users prob c. 2500BC or just before and were subsequently usurped by central European beaker users a century or so later. That change at Sion probably represents a process repeated along many important trade routeways round this time.

I should probably note that in my model of what essentially amounts to 2 beaker groups, I see the early western non-P312/non-steppic/non-IE beaker groups as also slowly creeping up the Atlantic shore of France to around the Loire. However by the time the isles were settled, the two beaker groups had probably bumped back into each other somewhere around the Breton-Normandy border area. There is no doubt that the P312 groups - specifically L21 - were the winners of that clash of two beaker cultures and, given that L21 is brother clade to U152, I have no doubt the winning group was that form the east. Personally I believe that once L21 had reached northern France and the isles, it took over the Atlantic coast route by slowly peculating southwards down the western coast of France as far as the Spanish border area.

This may have been a very long term process starting in the beaker era but continuing into the later Bronze Age. One thing may people reading casually about the Atlantic Bronze Age dont realise is the evidence is far stronger for influences and objects flowing north to south down the Atlantic coast - not from south to north as many think. As I pointed out in another post, the key to L21's isles dominance must have related to acquiring marine transport skills and craft capable of sailing the rough seas around the isles and NW France. Once acquired this would give an almost permanent advantage in any nearby areas where water based transport is more practical or crucial than land based ones. Basically a maritory. The L21 maritory probably included the isles, the continental channel coast, Atlantic France and the lower Rhine.

It does not appear from modern distributions that L21 had much power on the coasts of Iberia beyond Biscay. That area was probably someone else's maritory. Similarly it seems unlikely that the L21 maritory extended much east of the Rhine. This north Germanic (in a modern geographical sense) zone was probably a U106 dominated maritory by the beaker era and of course into the Nordic Bronze Age. We have hard evidence of this. The latter even had a very different trajectory in boat development so that fits rather well with the idea that the seas around the isles and the seas around Scandinavia were separate maritories.

A third maritory was apparently Iberia and clearly DF27 came to dominate that zone. However, DF27 is actually weakest in the Atlantic coast of Iberia and I personally suspect that back in 2800-2400BC and later this maritory was not run by P312 groups of any kind. I think it was run by Neolithic non-R1b lines (bar perhaps the odd V88 and similar) and only later did DF27 arrive at the end of the beaker era. DF27 does not have a maritime type cline and rises in the east of Iberia so I dont think they controlled Iberian beaker era coastal trade. Indeed it is worth noting that the entire Atlantic linkage between Atlantic Iberia and the isles fell from grace c. 2200-1000BC and Iberia commenced a very long period mixture of insularity or turning southwards to the Med.

alan
09-06-2016, 02:00 PM
4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111

Examples of beautiful gold discs and lunulae from Isles and Portugal.



Chapter 4 concerns the arrival of metallurgy and the Beaker Package in western Britain.
AMong several early mining sites in Ceredigion, Simon Timberlake gives special attention to the Copa Hill workings at Cwmystwyth.
New evidence, including AMS dates with Bayesian modelling, favour an "out of Ireland" model for the incoming technology and new people in the sequence Ireland > Central Wales > North Wales > NW England. Copper prospecting began at Cwmystwyth in the period 2200 - 1900 BC, before activity had ceased at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, and before full scale production began at Great Orme near Llandudno on Wales North coast. This account is consistent with the testimony of the 19th century find, near Cwmystwyth Pontrhydygroes, of a halberd of Ai copper of Ross Island provenance. THe Banc Tynddol gold sun-disc was found near The Copa Hill site in a probable grave. There are Atlantic parallels of the late 3rd millennium BC for this object, especially looking towards Armorica and Iberia. The disc can be seen as evidence for mobile metal-using newcomers arriving around the time that mining began there....


THe association with the "Bell Beaker package" however is clear here, as it was at the Ross Island mine although most of the dates from the working of the Cwmystwyth mine are later. What we are probably looking at therefore is the likely 'signature' of its discoverer.

Banc Tynddol, Wales
11429

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banc_Ty%27ndd%C3%B4l_sun-disc

Monaghan, Ireland
11430

Stonehenge, England
11431

Cabeceiras de Basto, Portugal
11432

the interesting thing about that Welsh mine is it is not Arsenical ore like Ross Island. Ross Island seems to have been a one-off in isles terms and the hardness of the copper its arsenical ore produced simply lost its mega-importance when tin alloying kicked in after a couple of centuries. The Welsh mine seems to be an early stage of that process whereby pure soft copper was no longer an issue due to tin alloying

George Chandler
09-06-2016, 02:39 PM
4. Copper mining, Prospection, and the Beaker Phenomenon
in Wales—the significance of the Banc Tynddol gold disc
Simon Timberlake 111

Examples of beautiful gold discs and lunulae from Isles and Portugal.



Chapter 4 concerns the arrival of metallurgy and the Beaker Package in western Britain.
AMong several early mining sites in Ceredigion, Simon Timberlake gives special attention to the Copa Hill workings at Cwmystwyth.
New evidence, including AMS dates with Bayesian modelling, favour an "out of Ireland" model for the incoming technology and new people in the sequence Ireland > Central Wales > North Wales > NW England. Copper prospecting began at Cwmystwyth in the period 2200 - 1900 BC, before activity had ceased at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, and before full scale production began at Great Orme near Llandudno on Wales North coast. This account is consistent with the testimony of the 19th century find, near Cwmystwyth Pontrhydygroes, of a halberd of Ai copper of Ross Island provenance. THe Banc Tynddol gold sun-disc was found near The Copa Hill site in a probable grave. There are Atlantic parallels of the late 3rd millennium BC for this object, especially looking towards Armorica and Iberia. The disc can be seen as evidence for mobile metal-using newcomers arriving around the time that mining began there....


THe association with the "Bell Beaker package" however is clear here, as it was at the Ross Island mine although most of the dates from the working of the Cwmystwyth mine are later. What we are probably looking at therefore is the likely 'signature' of its discoverer.

Banc Tynddol, Wales
11429

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banc_Ty%27ndd%C3%B4l_sun-disc

Monaghan, Ireland
11430

Stonehenge, England
11431

Cabeceiras de Basto, Portugal
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Does it mention the Beaker evidence in the east of what is now Scotland?

George

Heber
09-06-2016, 05:06 PM
Does it mention the Beaker evidence in the east of what is now Scotland?

George

Chapter 11 deals with POBI. Not specific to Bell Beaker.
I have not yet read an analysis of Bell Beaker in East Scotland.

11. The Genetic Structure of the British Populations and their Surnames
Bruce J. Winney & Walter F. Bodmer 305

Detailed maps showing fineSTRUCTURE clustering of POBI samples and selected surname analysis.

Heber
09-06-2016, 07:00 PM
5. Burial Practices in Ireland during the Late 3rd millennium BC—
connecting new ideologies with local expressions
kerri cleary 139

Detailed maps of Bell Beaker burials in Ireland including discoveries in megalithic monuments.

In chapter 5, Kerri Clery's examination of burial practices in Ireland during the late 3rd millennium BC throws new light on two phenomena that arrived evidently together c 2450/2400 BC: copper metallurgy and the Beaker complex. There are numerous instances over the next centuries of megalithic traditions reinterpreted in response to the incoming ideology, such as burials 'individualised' in cists or 'cist like compartments'. The inclusion of 18 new and 16 previously published AMS radiocarbon dates clarifies the transformations occurring during this period, notably the emergence of new ceramic types c 220/2150 BC. Ireland was clearly connected to the world overseas during the late 3rd millennium BC, and evidence for ocean going vessels is also considered. The overview of ground transport includes what are now the earliest directly dated horse remains in Ireland. These belong to the Middle Bronze Age, though other horse bones associated with earlier dated material are discussed....

The importance of the island in the prehistory of Western Europe has long been established, from the exploitation of porcelain the for axe manufacture in the Neolithic to the mining of copper from at least c 2400 BC onwards and the crafting of exquisite gold objects throughout the Bronze Age;all of which placed Ireland not on the edge but bound to the other communities of the Atlantic seaboard and beyond.

Based on current evidence, the lack of Beaker grave goods and when present the fragmentary nature of the pots, certainly seems to have more in common with particular parts of Iberia and north-western France, such as the Tagus Estuary, Alentejo, and the Paris Basin.

There is little doubt that Irelands's resources and geographical positioning on important routes of travel along the Atlantic facade ensured that the island was linked to diverse communities as the 'Metal Ages' began. It seems then that the adoption of wider fashions was deliberately selective and perhaps linked to the supply of metal and gold work, ultimately resulting in the coexistence of inter-related funerary practices that fused new ideologies with local expressions.


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See also
The Changing Face of Neolithic and Bronze Age Ireland: A Big Data Approach to the Settlement and Burial Records

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http://pure.qub.ac.uk/portal/files/51967609/the_changing_face.pdf

Heber
09-06-2016, 07:47 PM
6. Stelae, Funerary Practice, and Group Identities in the Bronze
and Iron Ages of SW Iberia: a moyenne durée perspective
Dirk brandherm 179

Detailed set of useful maps of SW Iberia showing distribution of anthromorphic stelae and warrior depictions

In Chapter 6, Dirk Brandherm builds a case for an Early Iron Age revival of a Middle Bronze Age burial ritual in Southern Portugal. This development is interrupted as a nativist reaction to the South-western Orientalizing Complex, as found ascendant in neighbouring regions east of Guadiana. Those Iron Age necropolises most resemble their forerunners of 500-1000 years before include find spots of SW stelae with writing. The nativist interpretation of these burials thus carries implications beyond archeology concerning the origins of the earliest Palaeolith-Hispanic scripts, as employed on the SW stelae, and the names recorded in the inscriptions, and their language as a whole. Brandherm also argues against the sometimes contradictory use of the term Tartes(s)os for phenomena in the Southern Iberian Peninsula of Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age.

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I was struck by the similarity of the v notch shields depicted on the stelae of SW Iberia including Solana de Cabanas and similar v notch shields found in Clonbrin in Co. Longford, Ireland.

Solana de Cabanas
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Clonbrin, Co. Longford, Ireland
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Heber
09-06-2016, 08:39 PM
7. Language Shift and Political Context in Late Bronze Age Ireland:
some implications of hillfort chronology
William O’Brien 201

Detailed maps and tables of 100 prehistoric hill forts in Ireland showing location of 6 excavated sites.

Chapter 7 takes as its keynote a recent proposal by Mallory (2013b, 278) that the rise of the hill forts could reflect Centers of power through which a foreign influence introduced a new language to multiple social domains in Ireland c 1000 BC. WIlliam O'Brien summarises the investigation of six large, multiple enclosure hill forts in the southern half of Ireland, carried out from 2004-11. THese produced numerous C dates consistent with the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age (c. 1400 - 1150 BC). Irish hill forts have correctly been linked with the arrival and early proliferation of the sword c. 1300-1100 BC). The sites continue to develop until an 'apparent collapse of hill fort culture' in the 8th century BC (during the Dowris phase). 'In the absence of firm evidence for a significant intrusive population' during this period, O'Brien withholds support from the theory of the hill fort as the social vector for the Celtization or Indo-Europeanization of Ireland.

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See also
O'Brien, W; (2013) 'Bronze Age copper mining in Europe' In: Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

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Appears to follow an Atlantic and Stelae Trail path.

https://www.academia.edu/9220917/OBrien_W_2013_Bronze_Age_copper_mining_in_Europe_I n_Oxford_Handbook_of_the_Bronze_Age._Oxford_Oxford _University_Press

Jean M
09-06-2016, 09:25 PM
O'Brien, W; (2013) 'Bronze Age copper mining in Europe' In: Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

I have that in my library, but wasn't sure if I should put it in the Vault. All advice on the copyright issue gratefully received.

Heber
09-07-2016, 12:05 AM
The far western stuff is interesting but it does not explain the fact there are no steppe genes or L11 derivtive yDNA in central and western Europe pre-2800BC or so in the ancient DNA record while ancient DNA does show this presence in all tested samples in the same zone after 2500BC. Any model for the beaker story has to explain how this influx of eastern genetics (still unknown in SW Europe in immediate pre-beaker copper age samples in Italy, France and Iberia) appeared across Europe in the period 2800-2000BC (albeit the timing for each area is hazy). Any model that fails to explain an eastern genetic influx across the whole of beaker Europe by at least the end of the beaker period is missing something key. So a simple out of the west model is kind of useless.

There are many models of how Steppe genes got west in time for the expansion of Bell Beaker.
One model is Indo-European from the East, Celtic from the West as proposed by John Koch.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

I would go further and suggest that the initial migration west was from the Caucasus, Maikop, Kura Araxes, Armenia, Georgia or even Zagros, prior to the Steppic formation. However aDNA from these regions and Atlantic Europe should help clarify the story.

All of the recent Steppe papers are referenced in CFTW including Reich, Allentoft, Haak and Lazaridis and Soares is collaborating with Reich so I guess he knows what is coming down the line.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-07-2016, 06:42 AM
^^^
I can't comment on the issue of Tartessian or "Basque substrate", but Koch's general approach to archaeology and sociolinguistics seems very reasonable

Heber
09-07-2016, 08:47 AM
This is a good primer for Catriona Gibsons paper and an explanation of the connections between Iberia and the Isles.

Rethinking the Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe


chapter three
Beakers into Bronze: tracing connections Between western iBeria and the British isles 2800–800
B
https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

In recent years, the subject of long-distance interaction in prehistory has regained popularity, after a protracted period of neglect when small-scale local and regional exchange networks were emphasized. This change in attitude has been prompted by several new developments, including groundbreaking research in genetics, linguistics, and scientific techniques in archaeology, all of which have contributed to tracing the movement of objects and people in the past with more accuracy and conviction. The application of strontium and oxygen isotope analysis in archaeological fields of inquiry has demonstrated that small groups of people were travelling considerable distances in prehistory, particularly during the Bronze Age. In central Europe, isotope analysis of Beaker groups in Bavaria has confirmed that approximately a quarter of the population from several cemeteries had moved extensive distances since their childhood (Grupe
et al.1997; Price, Grupe & Schröter 1998; Price et al.2004). In Britain, the preliminary strontium and oxygen isotope results of the ‘Beaker People Project’ demon-strate that although most people were ‘local’ to an area, there is some evidence for inter-regional movement (Parker Pearson et al. 2006; Jay & Richards 2007; Larsson & Parker Pearson (eds.) 2007). Isotope results from several recently excavated Beaker and Early Bronze Age burials from the Stonehenge environs, however, indicate that, although exceptional, supra-regional travel can be demonstrated by the presence of foreigners hailing from both central and Atlantic Europe, and possibly also from the Mediterranean (Fitzpatrick 2002; 2004; 2009; 2011, 203–7, 230–4; Chapter 2 above; Evans, Chenery, & Fitzpatrick 2006). Furthermore, strontium and oxygen isotope results from skeletons from Cliffs End, Ramsgate, in Kent, imply that movement of people also occurred during the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age. Nearly two thirds of the individuals analysed would appear to have come from abroad, with potential homelands including Scandinavia and the Iberian Peninsula (McKinley, Schuster, & Millard this volume, Chapter 6).

Heber
09-07-2016, 08:55 AM
^^^
I can't comment on the issue of Tartessian or "Basque substrate", but Koch's general approach to archaeology and sociolinguistics seems very reasonable

He addresses the "Tartessian" issue in
Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

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Jean M
09-07-2016, 10:23 AM
Koch's general approach to archaeology and sociolinguistics seems very reasonable

Profs. Koch and Cunliffe both have high reputations in their respective fields. Specifically they have produced works on the Celts that have become standard texts. I have on my shelves or computer:


Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts (1997)
Cunliffe, Iron Age Communities in Britain, 4th edition (2005)
Koch (in collaboration with others), An Atlas for Celtic Studies (2007)
Koch (ed.), Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia (2006)
Koch and Carey, The Celtic Heroic Age: Literary Sources for Ancient Celtic Europe & Early Ireland & Wales (2003) (compliation of translations)


Their collaboration on the "Celtic from the West" project generated many useful papers (including some which strongly criticized their theory), read initially at conferences (most of which I attended) and then mainly published in the three Celtic from the West volumes. These included some exciting, hot-from-the-field archaeology papers from Wessex Archaeology and Catriona Gibson, and contributions from some rising young stars in linguistics (Isaac, Schrijver). After a shaky start on genetics, they gradually realised that using modern DNA interpreted by Oppenheimer was not the latest thinking in genetics and ended up with a paper from Wolfgang Haak at the last conference in 2015. Good for them!

I drew on the above many times for my own book on the Celts, which could not have been written at the speed it was without them.

However core elements of the Celtic-from-the-West theory have been rejected by the overwhelming majority of their peers in their respective fields. These include the very ideas of which they were most fond. They will move on. Prof Cunliffe in particular is noted for his ability to change his mind in the light of new evidence.

R.Rocca
09-07-2016, 03:13 PM
The far western stuff is interesting but it does not explain the fact there are no steppe genes or L11 derivtive yDNA in central and western Europe pre-2800BC or so in the ancient DNA record while ancient DNA does show this presence in all tested samples in the same zone after 2500BC. Any model for the beaker story has to explain how this influx of eastern genetics (still unknown in SW Europe in immediate pre-beaker copper age samples in Italy, France and Iberia) appeared across Europe in the period 2800-2000BC (albeit the timing for each area is hazy). Any model that fails to explain an eastern genetic influx across the whole of beaker Europe by at least the end of the beaker period is missing something key. So a simple out of the west model is kind of useless.

We all have our opinions on how eastern genes got west (seemingly pretty well everywhere by the end of the beaker era). My own is that the initial beaker inventers were basically middle Neolithic Iberian farmers with a small influx of metallurgists ultimately from SE Europe but not steppic in origin. Same as the Remedello and Languedoc people. My feeling is that this early western beaker using group expanded (interestingly during a severe drought period) spread into southern France and through some passes into central Europe c. 2500BC then intermarried with local groups there. The central European groups they contacted included L11/P312 horse riders (human bone evidence).

At some point, probably very rapidly, these local male lineages (with Iberian wives) decided to cut out the middle man and usurped their Iberian 'fathers in law's' newly founded central European extension of their trade network. Over the period of a century this P312 group extended north. It also slowly penetrated towards the south and west and by the late beaker stage it had taken over even the heartlands of the original non-R1b beaker pot users in SW Europe. I think Sion perfectly shows this sort of process. Pre-beaker copper workers (in a zone with Remedello symbols) were 'replenished' by contacts with Iberian beaker users prob c. 2500BC or just before and were subsequently usurped by central European beaker users a century or so later. That change at Sion probably represents a process repeated along many important trade routeways round this time.

I should probably note that in my model of what essentially amounts to 2 beaker groups, I see the early western non-P312/non-steppic/non-IE beaker groups as also slowly creeping up the Atlantic shore of France to around the Loire. However by the time the isles were settled, the two beaker groups had probably bumped back into each other somewhere around the Breton-Normandy border area. There is no doubt that the P312 groups - specifically L21 - were the winners of that clash of two beaker cultures and, given that L21 is brother clade to U152, I have no doubt the winning group was that form the east. Personally I believe that once L21 had reached northern France and the isles, it took over the Atlantic coast route by slowly peculating southwards down the western coast of France as far as the Spanish border area.

This may have been a very long term process starting in the beaker era but continuing into the later Bronze Age. One thing may people reading casually about the Atlantic Bronze Age dont realise is the evidence is far stronger for influences and objects flowing north to south down the Atlantic coast - not from south to north as many think. As I pointed out in another post, the key to L21's isles dominance must have related to acquiring marine transport skills and craft capable of sailing the rough seas around the isles and NW France. Once acquired this would give an almost permanent advantage in any nearby areas where water based transport is more practical or crucial than land based ones. Basically a maritory. The L21 maritory probably included the isles, the continental channel coast, Atlantic France and the lower Rhine.

It does not appear from modern distributions that L21 had much power on the coasts of Iberia beyond Biscay. That area was probably someone else's maritory. Similarly it seems unlikely that the L21 maritory extended much east of the Rhine. This north Germanic (in a modern geographical sense) zone was probably a U106 dominated maritory by the beaker era and of course into the Nordic Bronze Age. We have hard evidence of this. The latter even had a very different trajectory in boat development so that fits rather well with the idea that the seas around the isles and the seas around Scandinavia were separate maritories.

A third maritory was apparently Iberia and clearly DF27 came to dominate that zone. However, DF27 is actually weakest in the Atlantic coast of Iberia and I personally suspect that back in 2800-2400BC and later this maritory was not run by P312 groups of any kind. I think it was run by Neolithic non-R1b lines (bar perhaps the odd V88 and similar) and only later did DF27 arrive at the end of the beaker era. DF27 does not have a maritime type cline and rises in the east of Iberia so I dont think they controlled Iberian beaker era coastal trade. Indeed it is worth noting that the entire Atlantic linkage between Atlantic Iberia and the isles fell from grace c. 2200-1000BC and Iberia commenced a very long period mixture of insularity or turning southwards to the Med.

As you know, long before the pre-beaker period, humans have traveled along coasts and waterways. Horse riding likely heightened the need for networks near water. While some form of marine transport is needed to explain the links between continental Bell Beaker and British/Irish Bell Beaker, it is not a necessary component anywhere else on the continent. Let's not forget that the Neolthics themselves had a pretty good handle on northern maritime crossings, as evidenced by Gok4 in Sweden and Ballynahatty in Ireland both resembling modern day Sardinians and ancient Neolithics. I'm not saying that maritime travel wasn't important, just that it likely wasn't a key differentiator for P312 that horse riding was.

razyn
09-07-2016, 04:26 PM
I'm not saying that maritime travel wasn't important, just that it likely wasn't a key differentiator for P312 that horse riding was.
I go off on the maritime thing occasionally because it interests me. But I don't think there's any necessary distinction between pastoralists (or cowboys) and boatmen; those horsey guys migrating westward across the steppe either had to cross several of the biggest rivers anywhere, or use the waterways as their routes in the first place. It can be done, it's just difficult and smells bad. Boats stout enough to bring ores or ingots down a river, from the mineral-rich hills to where the agriculture and the people were, were also stout enough to move cows and horses. These guys had to know several tricks besides riding, chopping heads, drinking from beakers, and erecting stelae. Some of the tricks were the province of specialists, we might call them metallurgists or shipwrights, but they were within the basic culture.

Heber
09-07-2016, 07:15 PM
8. Metal, Metalwork, and Specialization: the chemical composition
of British Bronze Age swords in context
Peter Bray 229

Detailed distribution maps of European copper axes, daggers and halberds in metal ages showing alloy type

Chapter 8 represents evidence for the chemical composition of British Late Bronze Age swords gathered by Peter Bray at the Oxford Archealogy Laboratory as a member of the AEMA team. Bray begins by discussing the pervasive idea that the sword was an object of special cultural significance and the resulting expectation that the production of swords had differed from other metal objects, being the work of craftsmen with special social status, who were either more wide ranging than other metal workers or less so, being permanently attached to particular chieftains. Despite these expectations, an analysis of the chemistry - taking into account four frequent elemental 'impurities' and the effects of resmelting and mixing - shows that axes and swords had the same chemistry and metal histories, thus failing to support a unique role for the sword smith.

Heber
09-08-2016, 12:14 PM
9. Emerging Settlement Monumentality in North Wales during
the Late Bronze and Iron Age: the case of Meillionydd
Raimund Karl 247

Detailed maps and sketches of settlements in North Wales in the Metal Ages.

The central focus of Chapter 9 is the occupation history of Iron Age hill fort of Meillionydd in North Wales, including a discussion of its environs on the ally Peninsula. From this evidence, Raimund Karl develops a theory of the social significance of enclosures, as these become significant features in landscape from the Late Bronze Age. Crossing disciplines, he analyses the Welsh word Llys 'enclosure, court' and its Celtic cognate. Evidence from the Welsh laws shows that the meaning 'place of judgement and authority' predates the semantic influence of Anglo Norman and English court.

Heber
09-08-2016, 12:42 PM
10. Ephemeral Abundance at Llanmaes: Exploring the residues and
resonances of an Earliest Iron Age midden and its associated
archaeological context in the Vale of Glamorgan
Adam Gwilt, Mark Lodwick, Jody Deacon, Nicholas
Wells, Richard Madgwick, & Tim Young 277

Sketches and detailed inventory of findings in Vale of Glamorgan Iron Age midden. Interesting artistic interpretation of findings.

In chapter 10, Adam Gwilt, Mark Lodwick, Jody Deacon, Nicolas Wells, Richard Madgwick and Tim Young present finds from a major escalation and public engagement project undertaken between 2003 and 2010 by Amgueddfa Cymru - National Museum of Wales and supported by The Portable Antiquities Scheme in Wales. The site at Llanmaes in the western Vale of Glamorgan comprised a midden of Earliest Iron Age date overlying an settlement that began in the Middle Bronze Age. The wide range of finds from the midden include varied metalwork of the Llyn Fawr period (c. 800 - 600 BC). There is a remarkable preponderance of pig amongst the faunal domesticated, at 71%, reflecting hundreds of animals of all ages, carrying implications for feasting practices.

On a lighter note...

A clip from a film commissioned by Amgueddfa Cymru – National Museum Wales for Origins – In Search of Early Wales (the new displays of the National Archaeology Collection). Shown on to a wall in the middle of the exhibition, the projector beam passes over the 3,000 year old cauldron that features in the animation. Not far away, in another case sits the Caergwrle Bowl, a 3,500 year old vessel whose maker had a hide boat in mind...

The star of the film is Y Twrch Trwyth, the demonic wild boar of Welsh legend, who is found, sacrificed and reborn. Perhaps a little irritated by the trauma, he sets off on the rampage across the land of hill forts, leaving a trail of destruction behind him. Finally, he sets sail for Ireland where, in another story he is found and hunted by King Arthur in his first appearance in world literature (Culhwch ac Olwen)

https://vimeo.com/42572290

Some beautiful art from Sean Harris ....

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Heber
09-08-2016, 05:30 PM
part II: Genetics
11. The Genetic Structure of the British Populations and their Surnames
Bruce J. Winney & Walter F. Bodmer 305

Detailed maps showing fineSTRUCTURE clustering of POBI samples and selected surname analysis.

Chapter 11 by Bruce Winney and Walter Bodmer presents results and interpretations based on the high quality and extensive genetic data collected by the Oxford based People of the British Isles (POBI) project, ongoing since 2004. Aiming to investigate UK population structure at a finer level, the project is an important milestone and demonstrates discernible differences between the historically Anglo-Saxon and various Celtic regions reflected in the genetics of the present day inhabitants. The POBI dataset will be of continuing significances ancient DNA becomes more available and diagonal comparisons with modern evidence will aid essentially in its analysis.


The original Nature paper is here:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html

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alan
09-08-2016, 07:09 PM
As you know, long before the pre-beaker period, humans have traveled along coasts and waterways. Horse riding likely heightened the need for networks near water. While some form of marine transport is needed to explain the links between continental Bell Beaker and British/Irish Bell Beaker, it is not a necessary component anywhere else on the continent. Let's not forget that the Neolthics themselves had a pretty good handle on northern maritime crossings, as evidenced by Gok4 in Sweden and Ballynahatty in Ireland both resembling modern day Sardinians and ancient Neolithics. I'm not saying that maritime travel wasn't important, just that it likely wasn't a key differentiator for P312 that horse riding was.

I would add coastal Scandinavia to the areas where sea transport would be much more important than horses. There are still many areas, especially Norway, where its much easier to travel by boat between A and B.

I agree though that its only in certain areas that it was vital. My guess anyway is that once the steppe gene carrying beaker folk reached the northern seas they probably had to deal with the local coastal Neolithic farmers to acquire sea transport or skills. There is no doubt at all from the very fact the farmers where able to settle the isles including the offshore smaller islands and also from the mid to later Neolithic prestige object distribution maps that the people of the isles and the coasts on other side of the channel had the ability to sail across the English channel, the Irish Sea and make journeys to and from the isle of Man, Orkneys, Shetlands etc.

I suspect the beaker people mixed with existing mariners they found there among the late Neolithic people- very much as I suspect the Neolithic people themselves who crossed to the isles 1500 years earlier had probably acquired boats and skills from mixing with the much more coast-and major river-focused Mesolithic people. In both cases they are v unlikely to have arrived at the coast and spent generations trying to re-invent marine technology and skills when it was clearly already there in pre-beaker times.

Provision of boats could of course have been part of a marriage agreement or dowry or clientship agreement and the knowledge could of course have been acquired after a bit of time. It seems almost certain that L21's dominance of the north-west Atlantic has something to do with them being a rare case of a beaker lineage who acquired the skills and technology to sail the very rough open seas of that area (which still take a terrible tole on fishermen in modern boats even today).

However I agree the horse was generally more important across the vast bulk of Europe and although we only have a little evidence we now know that some beaker guys did habitually ride. I have generally found over the decades that when there is a big change seen in the patterns and the reason is long debated, it usually ultimately emerges that a key technical or subsistence innovation or climate is the cause. It has always seemed very likely to me that the sudden ability to have huge trade and contact networks across almost all of Europe that we see in the beaker phase probably was linked to horses. Isotopes of course hinted at a huge upturn in mobility.

So IMO the beaker people probably were the first to introduce horse riding across the vast bulk Europe. Very much distinct from the impact of block wheeled wagons pulled by oxen. Horse riding is much faster, more likely to involve specialist subsets of a settled population than entire populations and perhaps best suited to wide networking in contrast to the plodding movement of whole families of mobile pastoralists in wagons which is unsuited anyway to non-steppe Europe. I think there was always an oblique clue to the importance of the horse in the obsession with this in Celtic and to a lesser degree Italic and Germanic mythology. A lot of the shared (not borrowed) Celto-Germanic vocab relates to horses too and apparently dates to the pre-proto phases of the languages so its very old. The beaker distribution of course does largely coincide with the Celto-Italic-Germanic zone.

alan
09-08-2016, 07:54 PM
another less pleasant reality of horses is they made it possible to form protection rackets which we give the nicer name 'clientship' to.

As well as being able to cover much larger distances at a slow pace, I understand cantering horses or ponies are fine to cover about 10 miles and can cover that ground in an hour. I suppose that would be 5 miles if they had to make the return journey home without resting. Over a shorter distance of 2 miles the horses or ponies could be galloped to cover the ground in around 5 minutes.

So a posse of horsemen had awesome power and fear factor over those without horses due to their ability to move and strike much faster than dispersed farmers could come together.They probably didnt do much fighting on horseback but as a form of military transport and an instrument of terror it must have been a huge advantage over those without.

The summer 'sport' of lightning raids, burning the houses, stealing the cattle and heading for home ASAP before forces could gather was endemic in the Gaelic world and there was essentially no defense against it for dispersed farmers into modern times (so they had to become clients of other similar people for defense). Once invented, the horse really gave a huge advantage to people who acquired them and wanted to exploit fear to prosper.

Heber
09-08-2016, 08:20 PM
UCD School of Classics are hosting a public lecture by Professor Sir Barry Cunliffe, Oxford University, entitled Celtic from the West on September 8th. Please see the Dublin page for details.

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Pity, I missed this lecture.

Nice review of his recent book, By Steppes, Ocean and Desert.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/161307

Dewsloth
09-08-2016, 08:37 PM
So a posse of horsemen had awesome power and fear factor over those without horses due to their ability to move and strike much faster than dispersed farmers could come together.They probably didnt do much fighting on horseback but as a form of military transport and an instrument of terror it must have been a huge advantage over those without.

The summer 'sport' of lightning raids, burning the houses, stealing the cattle and heading for home ASAP before forces could gather was endemic in the Gaelic world and there was essentially no defense against it for dispersed farmers into modern times (so they had to become clients of other similar people for defense). Once invented, the horse really gave a huge advantage to people who acquired them and wanted to exploit fear to prosper.

Boats can do pretty much the same thing, so we can't say for sure those existing northwest Atlantic neolithic mariners weren't already familiar with the concept before it was tried out overland with horses.

zamyatin13
09-08-2016, 08:40 PM
Probably the wrong thread for this, but did anyone go to the Bradley talk in Dublin today? Sounded like it might have the potential for some announcements.

alan
09-08-2016, 08:55 PM
There are many models of how Steppe genes got west in time for the expansion of Bell Beaker.
One model is Indo-European from the East, Celtic from the West as proposed by John Koch.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

I would go further and suggest that the initial migration west was from the Caucasus, Maikop, Kura Araxes, Armenia, Georgia or even Zagros, prior to the Steppic formation. However aDNA from these regions and Atlantic Europe should help clarify the story.

All of the recent Steppe papers are referenced in CFTW including Reich, Allentoft, Haak and Lazaridis and Soares is collaborating with Reich so I guess he knows what is coming down the line.

I am still sitting on the fence as to when and where the actual shifts that define Celtic occurred. I am certain it happened at some point 2500-1200BC and I would prob narrow that to 2200-1200BC. The most important relatively new linguistic paper I read was about the the Celto-German vocab cented around war, clientship, horses, ritual and religion that isnt usually shared with any other branches including Italic. It is not borrowed from Celtic or Germanic or vice versa because the words both break down back to natural pre-proto forms of both languages. So at some point the subset of Celto-Italic that led on to Celtic (but not the subset that led to Italic was very intimately interacting with pre-Germanic in the pre-proto-Celtic period. The vocab is of such core things - apparently the stuff of higher prestige - that we must be talking about key aspects about society and beliefs.

This vocab must have been shared at a point when the pre-proto-Celts and the ancestors of the Italics were no longer in regular contact. The Alps are presumably the most likely barrier to explain such a division. So the story of the arrival of the Italics into Italy could bookend the story of the Celto-Germanic contact but unfortunetly the former is hotly debated too.

The other thing is people try to date the proto-Celtic period by the most modern object or material within this vocab - like Iron. Problem is though noone ever considers how long the proto-Celtic period was. It could have been stetched out over many centuries if a network of innovation and sharing was maintained across the proto-Celtic world. Iron for example could have just been a final shared word in a proto-Celtic phase that had lasted 1000 years

My own feeling is Celtic originated among peoples who were in peculiarly close contact with pre-proto-Germans for a long period. The Celts appear to be the Celto-Italic subset who came to share a great deal of fundamental aspects of social structure and beliefs with the pre-proto-Germans. The question then is if this is stuff only known to the Celts and Germans but not the Italics then its unlikely that it comes from the original Celto-Italic shared background. The earliest scenario would be the beaker-CW overlap zone from the Rhine eastwards. Later scenarios are possible too. The commonly held belief is that Germanic evolved in the local iron age out of Bronze Age pre-proto-Germanic which probably existed in the Nordic Bronze Age. This is restricted to north Germany and Scandinavia. So its very hard to see how the profound early Celto-Germanic vocab sharing could come from anywhere other than within or close to Germany.

Jean M
09-08-2016, 09:05 PM
Probably the wrong thread for this, but did anyone go to the Bradley talk in Dublin today? Sounded like it might have the potential for some announcements.

There are several tweets by https://twitter.com/FionaFitzsimons from the talk:


Prof DAN BRADLEY speaking now on Ancient Irish DNA @NLIreland #IrishGenealogy


Working with ancient DNA involves a computational challenge of moving around a huge amount of data & making sense of it Prof Dan Bradley


DNA degrades over time so preservation is a real concern in analysing ancient DNA Prof Bradley @NLIreland


Neolithic tomb Ballynahatty, Down 1st sample of ancient Irish DNA - a woman farmer with Southern European genes - ancestry not local


3 ancestral genomes in ancient Europe: hunter-gatherers Mesolithic: Anatolian Neolithic; Steppe Warriors Bronze Age Dan Bradley @NLIreland


Other ancient DNA samples from 3 Bronze Age farmers on Rathlin Island off Antrim Coast. Their genes show Anatolian ancestry Prof Dan Bradley
(She's just confused there.)


Irish people have the highest ability of any people in the world to drink milk as adults: it's written into our genomes Prof Dan Bradley


Excellent talk by Dan Bradley on ancient DNA to a capacity crowd @NLIreland Taking questions now

alan
09-08-2016, 09:07 PM
Boats can do pretty much the same thing, so we can't say for sure those existing northwest Atlantic neolithic mariners weren't already familiar with the concept before it was tried out overland with horses.

very true although the mortality rate in very basic boats in northern seas must have been very bad - it remained incredibly high among fishermen into modern times. Still is the riskiest job to do. It also limits where you can raid and of course you are limited by tides, weather etc. Even the Norwegian Vikings going down Scotland and Ireland's Atlantic coast and up the rivers ultimately could only retain a hold on islands, forts, urban enclaves etc. I think the horse would allow a much more systematic and consistent method of forming networks of domination and control. Another key factor is that the main prey of traditional raiding (before monasteries created nucleated sites full of precious metal objects to steal) was cattle raiding. 99% of the population simply didnt have much else in the way of mobile goods worth risking your neck to steal. That being so, raiding in small primitive boats would be an incredibly clumsy way to steal cattle. Not impossible but would be on a hell of a small scale and very clumsy.

Heber
09-08-2016, 09:08 PM
Probably the wrong thread for this, but did anyone go to the Bradley talk in Dublin today? Sounded like it might have the potential for some announcements.

Unfortunately I am out of the country this week and missed two very interesting lectures from Bradley and Cunliffe.

Posted on another thread:
"Talk by Bradley today at NLI covered the paper from last December. Neolithic farmer ancient dna like modern Iberia. Bronze age ancient dna most like current population in Ireland Scotland and Wales. New dna component from the Caucasus. Bradley indicated that the timing of this last movement of people might be eventually linked to change in material culture and the arrival of indo European languages."

Interesting that he emphasises Caucasus the 4th compenent which I believe will be the key to this puzzle.

alan
09-08-2016, 09:09 PM
There are several tweets by https://twitter.com/FionaFitzsimons from the talk:












(She's just confused there.)

so old news to us DNA obsessives

alan
09-08-2016, 09:12 PM
UCD School of Classics are hosting a public lecture by Professor Sir Barry Cunliffe, Oxford University, entitled Celtic from the West on September 8th. Please see the Dublin page for details.

11490

Pity, I missed this lecture.

Nice review of his recent book, By Steppes, Ocean and Desert.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/161307

I reckon Heber is Cunliffe's agent :0)

Heber
09-08-2016, 09:47 PM
I reckon Heber is Cunliffe's agent :0)

Alan,
There are two masters
Cunliffe for Celtic Archealogy
Koch for Celtic Linguistics
Nobody else comes close.
Some of their critics do not speak let alone master a Celtic language or indeed broader Indo European languages.
Unfortunately I don't control my agenda and cannot attend the lectures. I would like to.
I look forward to a new generation of scholars who stand on the shoulders of these giants.

Jean M
09-08-2016, 10:05 PM
I look forward to a new generation of scholars who stand on the shoulders of these giants.

I've already told them that I'm perching on their shoulders. :) Sir Barry has been an inspiration to me since I began (almost 31 years ago) working for an archaeological unit he ran. It was eye-opening to do a little research for him and then later read what he did with the data. His whole approach appealed to me. So you can imagine how little pleasure it has given me to disagree with him in the smallest way.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-08-2016, 10:06 PM
I would add coastal Scandinavia to the areas where sea transport would be much more important than horses. There are still many areas, especially Norway, where its much easier to travel by boat between A and B.

I agree though that its only in certain areas that it was vital. My guess anyway is that once the steppe gene carrying beaker folk reached the northern seas they probably had to deal with the local coastal Neolithic farmers to acquire sea transport or skills. There is no doubt at all from the very fact the farmers where able to settle the isles including the offshore smaller islands and also from the mid to later Neolithic prestige object distribution maps that the people of the isles and the coasts on other side of the channel had the ability to sail across the English channel, the Irish Sea and make journeys to and from the isle of Man, Orkneys, Shetlands etc.

I suspect the beaker people mixed with existing mariners they found there among the late Neolithic people- very much as I suspect the Neolithic people themselves who crossed to the isles 1500 years earlier had probably acquired boats and skills from mixing with the much more coast-and major river-focused Mesolithic people. In both cases they are v unlikely to have arrived at the coast and spent generations trying to re-invent marine technology and skills when it was clearly already there in pre-beaker times.

Provision of boats could of course have been part of a marriage agreement or dowry or clientship agreement and the knowledge could of course have been acquired after a bit of time. It seems almost certain that L21's dominance of the north-west Atlantic has something to do with them being a rare case of a beaker lineage who acquired the skills and technology to sail the very rough open seas of that area (which still take a terrible tole on fishermen in modern boats even today).

However I agree the horse was generally more important across the vast bulk of Europe and although we only have a little evidence we now know that some beaker guys did habitually ride. I have generally found over the decades that when there is a big change seen in the patterns and the reason is long debated, it usually ultimately emerges that a key technical or subsistence innovation or climate is the cause. It has always seemed very likely to me that the sudden ability to have huge trade and contact networks across almost all of Europe that we see in the beaker phase probably was linked to horses. Isotopes of course hinted at a huge upturn in mobility.

So IMO the beaker people probably were the first to introduce horse riding across the vast bulk Europe. Very much distinct from the impact of block wheeled wagons pulled by oxen. Horse riding is much faster, more likely to involve specialist subsets of a settled population than entire populations and perhaps best suited to wide networking in contrast to the plodding movement of whole families of mobile pastoralists in wagons which is unsuited anyway to non-steppe Europe. I think there was always an oblique clue to the importance of the horse in the obsession with this in Celtic and to a lesser degree Italic and Germanic mythology. A lot of the shared (not borrowed) Celto-Germanic vocab relates to horses too and apparently dates to the pre-proto phases of the languages so its very old. The beaker distribution of course does largely coincide with the Celto-Italic-Germanic zone.

I agree with all such possibilities
For now, one can only keep waiting for more solid evidence, or systematic reviews exploring the specialist links between horses and Beakers ;)

Whilst BB might have "introduced" horses to Western Europe (although deposits are seen in earlier cultures like Altheim), it is notable that (IIRC) BB lack the symbolic "horse burials" seen amongst the elites of Sintashta, the Thraco- Cimmerians, or Unetice; or earlier horse -eating cultures like Samara.

IMHO all *western Beaker hubs look coastal & riverine

Gravetto-Danubian
09-09-2016, 12:47 AM
The arrival of CWC culture to northeast Europe & eastern Scandinavia is relatively straightforward: the (delayed) arrival of a productive economy. Similarly, BB in northwest Europe, including Britain, more or less coincides the introduction of Copper metallurgy into areas previously reliant on flint. In each case, the key aspect is economics and production.

So, what remains to be fully clarified is the genesis of the "Bell Beaker East" group in Germany & the Czech lands; and the timing of their move into Iberia and Italy.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-09-2016, 01:15 PM
I agree with all such possibilities
For now, one can only keep waiting for more solid evidence, or systematic reviews exploring the specialist links between horses and Beakers ;)

Whilst BB might have "introduced" horses to Western Europe (although deposits are seen in earlier cultures like Altheim), it is notable that (IIRC) BB lack the symbolic "horse burials" seen amongst the elites of Sintashta, the Thraco- Cimmerians, or Unetice; or earlier horse -eating cultures like Samara.

IMHO all *western Beaker hubs look coastal & riverine

I have to state though that given L51 came from the East, its appearance as far as Ireland by 2400 BC implies great rapidity, whatever the details.

Heber
09-10-2016, 10:47 AM
12. Archaeogenetic and Palaeogenetic Evidence for Metal Age Mobility
in Europe
Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, & Martin B. Richards 321
part III: Linguistics

The three disciplines involved in the studies here - Archealogy, genetics and linguistics - are progressing on the levels of primary data and methodology, but not at the same rate. Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, and Martin Richards convey the rapid, and now rapidly accelerating, advances in the genetic study of the human past. Chapter 12 provides an accessible overview of progress in the field of Archaeogenetics, from its beginnings in the late 20th century. We are now poised on an important threshold. Yet fundamental questions remain concerning the population associated with the Beaker phenomenon - at its earliest stages in the Iberian Peninsula and after it had spread widely in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC - and what this might imply for the linguistic prehistory of Atlantic Europe.

Genome wide SNP analysis of global populations.*
PC Analysis depicting relationships between mtDNA haplogroups frequency variation in modern day West Eurasian populations and samples from Early Neolithic to Early Bronze Age showing West to East cline.
Detailed analysis of mtDNA H and the Brotherton and Brandt papers.
Expansion of H with Bell Beaker from Iberia.
Possible arrival of Yamnaya Package in SW Europe in time for expansion of Maritine Bell Beaker from Iberia.

"Introduction. The three phases of Archaeogenetics.
Phase 1 70s. Cavalli-Sforza. Blood groups.
Large scale demic diffusion of Near Eastern populations into Europe.
Phase 2 80s-00s mtDNA, Y, STRs, modern DNA
Out of Africa,
Phase 3 10s, aDNA, NGS
LBK, Caucasus, Steppes, Anatolia, Iberia migrations
Haak, Brandt, Brotherton, Reich, Allentoft, Richards, Pinhasy, Lazaridis, Bradley

The prehistoric background to European genetic variation
History of various migrations and mainly mtDNA evidence
Description of three autosomal components

Ancient DNA and the palimpsest effect
Small scale movements over time obscure the signal from the one before
Vikings in Orkney, Genghis Khan,

A Bronze Age reshaping of European genetic diversity
Complex shifting of distribution on mtDNA N,U,H,J in Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze Age

The Haplogroups H enigma
Haak, Brandt, Brotherton
Clear signal of expansion of H from Iberia to Central Europe but without population replacement, consistent with infiltration, small enclaves that were settled by carriers of the Beaker complex. Confirmed by non metric dental traits.

Modelling post Neolithic demographic changes
Nevertheless the indications from what is a now quiet a large mtDNA sample that Early Neolithic Central European mtDNAs had unusually low levels of haplogroups H suggest that something significant happened to affect the distribution of this haplogroups in the Late Neolithic. And if the source for H1 and H3 is indeed south-west Europe then Iberia may be implicated in subsequent dispersals into Central Europe that may match the archeological evidence for the spread of the Beaker complex....

We should note that the R1b lineages seen in the Yamnaya samples are very divergent from those shared both by the German Bell Beaker samples and many West European men. Thus both an earlier spread from the east and a more recent re-dispersal from the west may be possible.

Late Neolithic Immigration from Eastern Europe
THe Yamnaya has been proposed as the antecedent of the European Corded Ware culture, which arrived in Central Europe about 4,800 years ago as well as the region from which the Indo-European languages may have have spread to Europe (Mallory, Anthony)....
However again we note that this is a deep branching R1b lineage very different from the majority of those seen in Western Europe today and seen more commonly in Eastern Europe.

Conclusions
On the other hand , the suggestion has been made that ideological elements of the 'Yamnaya Package' may have spread as far as Iberia by the early 3rd millennium BC (Harrison & Heyd). If this were the case , one might plausibly imagine that Indo European arrived too, and that it might have emerged as Proto-Celtic in time for the subsequent Maritime Beaker expansions from Iberia (Koch 2013, Mallory 2013).
Further data is clearly essential to bolster the provisional conclusions about dispersal and population turnover that are beginning to be made...."

Acknowledgements
....and David Reich for access to unpublished work.
I understand that Soares. Co-author of this paper has access to the Iberian Bell Beaker samples from Carer de Paris and others and is collaborating with Reich on the expected 'massive' Bell Beaker paper.
Can't wait.:).

11517

mouse
09-10-2016, 11:54 AM
Chapter 12, page 356, much of haplogroup H ,the most frequent haplogroup in modern Europeans,is most likely to have evolved in the Late Glacial and Mesolithic of Iberia (Soares etal 2010).

Heber
09-10-2016, 12:35 PM
Chapter 12, page 356, much of haplogroup H ,the most frequent haplogroup in modern Europeans,is most likely to have evolved in the Late Glacial and Mesolithic of Iberia (Soares etal 2010).

"H1 and H3 both appear likely to have arisen in pre-Neolithic Iberia, yet H1 appears in Central European aDNAs only with the LBK, and H3 with the Middle Neolithic. "P357.

Heber
09-10-2016, 02:07 PM
12. Archaeogenetic and Palaeogenetic Evidence for Metal Age Mobility
in Europe
Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, & Martin B. Richards 321
part III: Linguistics

The three disciplines involved in the studies here - Archealogy, genetics and linguistics - are progressing on the levels of primary data and methodology, but not at the same rate. Maria Pala, Pedro Soares, and Martin Richards convey the rapid, and now rapidly accelerating, advances in the genetic study of the human past. Chapter 12 provides an accessible overview of progress in the field of Archaeogenetics, from its beginnings in the late 20th century. We are now poised on an important threshold. Yet fundamental questions remain concerning the population associated with the Beaker phenomenon - at its earliest stages in the Iberian Peninsula and after it had spread widely in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC - and what this might imply for the linguistic prehistory of Atlantic Europe.

Genome wide SNP analysis of global populations.*
PC Analysis depicting relationships between mtDNA haplogroups frequency variation in modern day West Eurasian populations and samples from Early Neolithic to Early Bronze Age showing West to East cline.
Detailed analysis of mtDNA H and the Brotherton and Brandt papers.
Expansion of H with Bell Beaker from Iberia.
Possible arrival of Yamnaya Package in SW Europe in time for expansion of Maritine Bell Beaker from Iberia.

"Introduction. The three phases of Archaeogenetics.
Phase 1 70s. Cavalli-Sforza. Blood groups.
Large scale demic diffusion of Near Eastern populations into Europe.
Phase 2 80s-00s mtDNA, Y, STRs, modern DNA
Out of Africa,
Phase 3 10s, aDNA, NGS
LBK, Caucasus, Steppes, Anatolia, Iberia migrations
Haak, Brandt, Brotherton, Reich, Allentoft, Richards, Pinhasy, Lazaridis, Bradley

The prehistoric background to European genetic variation
History of various migrations and mainly mtDNA evidence
Description of three autosomal components

Ancient DNA and the palimpsest effect
Small scale movements over time obscure the signal from the one before
Vikings in Orkney, Genghis Khan,

A Bronze Age reshaping of European genetic diversity
Complex shifting of distribution on mtDNA N,U,H,J in Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze Age

The Haplogroups H enigma
Haak, Brandt, Brotherton
Clear signal of expansion of H from Iberia to Central Europe but without population replacement, consistent with infiltration, small enclaves that were settled by carriers of the Beaker complex. Confirmed by non metric dental traits.

Modelling post Neolithic demographic changes
Nevertheless the indications from what is a now quiet a large mtDNA sample that Early Neolithic Central European mtDNAs had unusually low levels of haplogroups H suggest that something significant happened to affect the distribution of this haplogroups in the Late Neolithic. And if the source for H1 and H3 is indeed south-west Europe then Iberia may be implicated in subsequent dispersals into Central Europe that may match the archeological evidence for the spread of the Beaker complex....

We should note that the R1b lineages seen in the Yamnaya samples are very divergent from those shared both by the German Bell Beaker samples and many West European men. Thus both an earlier spread from the east and a more recent re-dispersal from the west may be possible.

Late Neolithic Immigration from Eastern Europe
THe Yamnaya has been proposed as the antecedent of the European Corded Ware culture, which arrived in Central Europe about 4,800 years ago as well as the region from which the Indo-European languages may have have spread to Europe (Mallory, Anthony)....
However again we note that this is a deep branching R1b lineage very different from the majority of those seen in Western Europe today and seen more commonly in Eastern Europe.

Conclusions
On the other hand , the suggestion has been made that ideological elements of the 'Yamnaya Package' may have spread as far as Iberia by the early 3rd millennium BC (Harrison & Heyd). If this were the case , one might plausibly imagine that Indo European arrived too, and that it might have emerged as Proto-Celtic in time for the subsequent Maritime Beaker expansions from Iberia (Koch 2013, Mallory 2013).
Further data is clearly essential to bolster the provisional conclusions about dispersal and population turnover that are beginning to be made...."

Acknowledgements
....and David Reich for access to unpublished work.
I understand that Soares. Co-author of this paper has access to the Iberian Bell Beaker samples from Carer de Paris and others and is collaborating with Reich on the expected 'massive' Bell Beaker paper.
Can't wait.:).

11517

Here is a link to the Archeogenetics Research Group

http://www.hud.ac.uk/research/researchcentres/targ/

Heber
09-10-2016, 03:18 PM
13. Archaeology and Language Shift in Atlantic Europe
J. P. Mallory 345

Explanation of language shift.

On familiar interdisciplinary terrain, J.P.Mallory begins Chapter 13 restating the challenges facing any attempt to map linguistics onto prehistoric Archealogy. From the premise that some language other than Celtic, or the Indo-European that became Celtic, had once been spoken in Atlantic Europe, he concludes that language shift had occurred. This was more probably a process of elite dominance than a turnover of demography / subsistence or, least probably, a system collapse. He notes that the branch of linguistics that customarily deals with late prehistory is habitually separate from those dealing with the sociolinguistics of bilingualism and second language acquisition. He sets up a model of four or more generations, leading from a situation in which a new language in introduced by a minority of newcomers, is then gradually taken up in some social domains by their indigenous neighbours, subsequently spreading to more domains and communities, then taken up as the household language by bilinguals, followed finally by the death of the indigenous language (corresponding to the pre-Celtic language or languages of Atlantic Europe).

Heber
09-10-2016, 03:23 PM
14. Question of a Hamito-Semitic Substratum in Insular Celtic
and Celtic from the West
Steve Hewitt 365

Detailed tables and map of Celtic and Phoenician contact zones.

For more than a century, leading scholars of the Celtic languages have observed and sought to explain parallels in syntactic features of the medieval and modern Goidelic and Brythonic languages with several non- Indo-European languages of the Middle East and North Africa. These same features are generally absent from the other Indo-European languages. Repeatedly these similarities have been seen as a substratum effect, the basis for a hypothesis that the Insular Celtic languages overlie a language or languages topologically similar to the Hamito-Semitic. One peculiarity of the published research on this 'Hamito-Semetic hypothesis' is that it's fullest presentation in the 1993 doctoral dissertation of Gensler, which remains unpublished. Therefore Steve Hewitt's account in Chapter 14 is particularly useful in providing a history of the idea and systematic listing of the diagnosis. Hamilton-Semetic/Insular Celtic features. The re-examination is also timely, as old assumptions are now questioned about where and when the attested Celtic languages evolved from the Proto-Indo-European. Hewitt's comparative examples are drawn mostly from Breton and Arabic.

Heber
09-10-2016, 03:29 PM
15. Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze
Age and Proto-Celtic
JOHN T. KOCH 383

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Ph...d_Proto-Celtic

Detailed maps and tables of Atlantic and SW Iberian zones showing distribution of metalwork and boundary between Indo European and Non Indo European languages.
References Brotherton, Haak, Allentoft, Cassidy, Pala, Winney and Bodmer.

Since formulated in Cunliffe (2001) , the Celtic from the West hypothesis has envisioned that Proto-Celtic was in use as the lingua Franca behind observable interactions defining the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, if not earlier still in Atlantic Europe. In Chapter 15 John T. Koch considers a range of linguistic evidence that sits more easily with this idea than with the traditional model. The primary dialect cleavage in the Celtic languages between Hispano-Celtic and Gaulish-Brythonic-Goidelic can be correlated with the precocious departure of the Iberian Peninsula from the Atlantic Bronze Age catalysed by the arrival of Phoeniciens by c. 900 BC. Of the western Indo-European branches (Celtic, Italic and Germanic) the consonant system of Celtic has evolved in a direction closest to that of the ancient non Indo-Europeanlanguages of south-west Europe, Iberian and Palaeolith-Basque. The common Hispano-Celticpersonal name Arquius 'archer' is derived from a western Indo European root with no Goedilic or Brythonic counterpart; bows and arrows died out in the Middle Bronze Age in Britain and Ireland, but continued as a high status weapon throughout the Iberian Bronze Age. The Celtic content of the SW inscriptions can be defended on the basis of scholarly consensus and the linguistic evidence. Exeter this corpus is seen as containing Celtic elements or simply being written in a Celtic language, this testimony is more consistent with the Celtic from the West model than with a Central European homeland.

11526

11527

11528

11530

See also

Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

Indo-European from the east and Celtic from the west: reconciling models for languages in later prehistory

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Celtic from the West. Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language, and Literature
https://www.academia.edu/7336002/Celtic_from_the_West._Alternative_Perspectives_fro m_Archaeology_Genetics_Language_and_Literature

Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between Iberia and the British Isles 2800-800 BC
https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

Tartessian as Celtic and Celtic from the West: both, only the first, only the second, neither

https://www.academia.edu/7399245/Tartessian_as_Celtic_and_Celtic_from_the_West_both _only_the_first_only_the_second_neither

Jean M
09-10-2016, 09:23 PM
Chapter 12, page 356, much of haplogroup H ,the most frequent haplogroup in modern Europeans,is most likely to have evolved in the Late Glacial and Mesolithic of Iberia (Soares etal 2010).

I shouldn't worry about it. They are clinging on to old ideas with this one.

alan
09-11-2016, 01:10 PM
15. Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze
Age and Proto-Celtic
JOHN T. KOCH 383

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Ph...d_Proto-Celtic

Detailed maps and tables of Atlantic and SW Iberian zones showing distribution of metalwork and boundary between Indo European and Non Indo European languages.
References Brotherton, Haak, Allentoft, Cassidy, Pala, Winney and Bodmer.

Since formulated in Cunliffe (2001) , the Celtic from the West hypothesis has envisioned that Proto-Celtic was in use as the lingua Franca behind observable interactions defining the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, if not earlier still in Atlantic Europe. In Chapter 15 John T. Koch considers a range of linguistic evidence that sits more easily with this idea than with the traditional model. The primary dialect cleavage in the Celtic languages between Hispano-Celtic and Gaulish-Brythonic-Goidelic can be correlated with the precocious departure of the Iberian Peninsula from the Atlantic Bronze Age catalysed by the arrival of Phoeniciens by c. 900 BC. Of the western Indo-European branches (Celtic, Italic and Germanic) the consonant system of Celtic has evolved in a direction closest to that of the ancient non Indo-Europeanlanguages of south-west Europe, Iberian and Palaeolith-Basque. The common Hispano-Celticpersonal name Arquius 'archer' is derived from a western Indo European root with no Goedilic or Brythonic counterpart; bows and arrows died out in the Middle Bronze Age in Britain and Ireland, but continued as a high status weapon throughout the Iberian Bronze Age. The Celtic content of the SW inscriptions can be defended on the basis of scholarly consensus and the linguistic evidence. Exeter this corpus is seen as containing Celtic elements or simply being written in a Celtic language, this testimony is more consistent with the Celtic from the West model than with a Central European homeland.

11526

11527

11528

11530

See also

Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

Indo-European from the east and Celtic from the west: reconciling models for languages in later prehistory

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Celtic from the West. Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language, and Literature
https://www.academia.edu/7336002/Celtic_from_the_West._Alternative_Perspectives_fro m_Archaeology_Genetics_Language_and_Literature

Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between Iberia and the British Isles 2800-800 BC
https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

Tartessian as Celtic and Celtic from the West: both, only the first, only the second, neither

https://www.academia.edu/7399245/Tartessian_as_Celtic_and_Celtic_from_the_West_both _only_the_first_only_the_second_neither

I dont believe at all in Celtic from the south-west for several reasons which I have posted about before. However the Phoencians raise an interesting point. I take a counterview that Iberians brief and late linkage with the much longer interlinked Atlantic groups further north may be due to early contact with the Phoenicians (perhaps before they made any permanent settlements) and borrowing their sail technology. That could have been the technology which encourage a sudden linkage with Atlantic peoples further north as it would have made it somewhat easier. However it all hinges on very fine dating that perhaps is not possible as yet. What is often missed by Celts from the west papers is that Iberia was a late and relatively brief addition to an Atlantic network that had been operating for 1000 years without Iberia from perhaps 2200BC-1200BC.

Heber
09-11-2016, 01:36 PM
I dont believe at all in Celtic from the south-west for several reasons which I have posted about before. However the Phoencians raise an interesting point. I take a counterview that Iberians brief and late linkage with the much longer interlinked Atlantic groups further north may be due to early contact with the Phoenicians (perhaps before they made any permanent settlements) and borrowing their sail technology. That could have been the technology which encourage a sudden linkage with Atlantic peoples further north as it would have made it somewhat easier. However it all hinges on very fine dating that perhaps is not possible as yet. What is often missed by Celts from the west papers is that Iberia was a late and relatively brief addition to an Atlantic network that had been operating for 1000 years without Iberia from perhaps 2200BC-1200BC.

Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (3rd millennium BC)

Laure Salanova

The typology of the material culture, circulation of know-how, preferences regarding settlement and mobility patterns reveal a coherent Atlantic entity, in continuity with the previous periods and providing the basis of the Bronze Age Complex....

Along the Atlantic façade of Europe, a coherent Bell Beaker entity has been recognized, defining a regional identity that prefigures the Atlantic Bronze Age Complex....

However, the similarities described along the Atlantic coast, which involve the circulation of know-how and of craftsmen, could effectively demonstrate the existence of supra-regional languages, shared at least by this group of specialists....

Copper prospecting began at Cwmystwyth in the period 2200 - 1900 BC, before activity had ceased at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, and before full scale production began at Great Orme near Llandudno on Wales North coast. This account is consistent with the testimony of the 19th century find, near Cwmystwyth Pontrhydygroes, of a halberd of Ai copper of Ross Island provenance. THe Banc Tynddol gold sun-disc was found near The Copa Hill site in a probable grave. There are Atlantic parallels of the late 3rd millennium BC for this object, especially looking towards Armorica and Iberia. The disc can be seen as evidence for mobile metal-using newcomers arriving around the time that mining began there....

The earliest Bell Beaker are found in SW Europe (SW Iberia), Tagus Estury, Alentejo.

In chapter 5, Kerri Clery's examination of burial practices in Ireland during the late 3rd millennium BC throws new light on two phenomena that arrived evidently together c 2450/2400 BC: copper metallurgy and the Beaker complex.

Based on current evidence, the lack of Beaker grave goods and when present the fragmentary nature of the pots, certainly seems to have more in common with particular parts of Iberia and north-western France, such as the Tagus Estuary, Alentejo, and the Paris Basin.

The Beaker finds in Ross Island and Rathlin suggest that Beaker had reached Ireland prior to 2000 BC.
All this happened before the Phoenician incursion.

alan
09-11-2016, 01:38 PM
The arrival of CWC culture to northeast Europe & eastern Scandinavia is relatively straightforward: the (delayed) arrival of a productive economy. Similarly, BB in northwest Europe, including Britain, more or less coincides the introduction of Copper metallurgy into areas previously reliant on flint. In each case, the key aspect is economics and production.

So, what remains to be fully clarified is the genesis of the "Bell Beaker East" group in Germany & the Czech lands; and the timing of their move into Iberia and Italy.

In all probability the traits of the Rhine groups indicate that they were created by a mixture of east and west types of beaker elements but it is very hard to imagine a scenario where the Rhine yDNA wasnt P312 and from the same origin as the beaker east group (central Europe) seeing as its pretty clear the central group was U152/P312 and its pretty clear L21 was the lineage commanding the nearest continental coasts opposite the isles c. 2400BC. The isles beaker folk also include people with the same sort of skulls as the beaker central group. I am pretty sure that prior to 2500BC no beaker using people had these distinct skulls so IMO the P312 beaker users are probably a distinct group who adopted some western and southern beaker traits from contact. I think there were at least two distinct beaker peoples and that the one carrying P312 and Yamnaya genes only formed c.2500BC in central Europe. The only question that still lingers but is crucial is where and in what culture did P312 or even L11 live before 2500BC. I dont believee it lay in the west at that date. Much more likely it lay in a culture who came into contact with non-P312 beaker-using south-west Europeans c. 2500BC.

In such a model (and I realise its just one opinion among many but it hasnt been proven or disproved and neither have any others) steppe genes met beaker somewhere in the contact zone between beaker pot users and steppe gene carrying central Europeans c.2500BC. In theory by 2500BC there were steppe genes all across central and northern Europe as far west as the Rhine and the meeting of beaker and steppe genes could have taken place anywhere. I dont think the sample is big enough or wide enough to rule out any cultures as carrying P312 in that zone. Lets put it this way - if (and I know there are ifs and buts) U106 could end up in the battle axe culture subset of an otherwise so far totally non-R1b CW culture, then other L11 including P312 could have ended up in an similarly atypical subset of CW culture elsewhere. This needs ruled out before we tie ourselves in loops because if P312 was within corded ware (even as some one-off inbred lineage of their metalworker's guild) then it would greatly simplify everything. I am not saying that is the reality or even that I think its likely but a bigger sample is needed to test it. I would prioritise testing the Corded Ware metal smith graves of which there are apparently a few. I would also test the Yamnaya metal workers grave just to test out the possibility that L11 was some kind of lineages carried by something akin to a metalworkers guild or clan. If it was then it would only turn up in very specific graves such as those that look like smiths

alan
09-11-2016, 01:53 PM
Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (3rd millennium BC)

Laure Salanova

The typology of the material culture, circulation of know-how, preferences regarding settlement and mobility patterns reveal a coherent Atlantic entity, in continuity with the previous periods and providing the basis of the Bronze Age Complex....

Along the Atlantic façade of Europe, a coherent Bell Beaker entity has been recognized, defining a regional identity that prefigures the Atlantic Bronze Age Complex....

However, the similarities described along the Atlantic coast, which involve the circulation of know-how and of craftsmen, could effectively demonstrate the existence of supra-regional languages, shared at least by this group of specialists....

Copper prospecting began at Cwmystwyth in the period 2200 - 1900 BC, before activity had ceased at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, and before full scale production began at Great Orme near Llandudno on Wales North coast. This account is consistent with the testimony of the 19th century find, near Cwmystwyth Pontrhydygroes, of a halberd of Ai copper of Ross Island provenance. THe Banc Tynddol gold sun-disc was found near The Copa Hill site in a probable grave. There are Atlantic parallels of the late 3rd millennium BC for this object, especially looking towards Armorica and Iberia. The disc can be seen as evidence for mobile metal-using newcomers arriving around the time that mining began there....

The earliest Bell Beaker are found in SW Europe (SW Iberia), Tagus Estury, Alentejo.

In chapter 5, Kerri Clery's examination of burial practices in Ireland during the late 3rd millennium BC throws new light on two phenomena that arrived evidently together c 2450/2400 BC: copper metallurgy and the Beaker complex.

Based on current evidence, the lack of Beaker grave goods and when present the fragmentary nature of the pots, certainly seems to have more in common with particular parts of Iberia and north-western France, such as the Tagus Estuary, Alentejo, and the Paris Basin.

The Beaker finds in Ross Island and Rathlin suggest that Beaker had reached Ireland prior to 2000 BC.
All this happened before the Phoenician incursion.

sorry - I maybe didnt make me post very clear.I mean the period after the initial most widespread beaker network had broken down c. 2200BC. Atlantic Iberia was basically disconnected from Atlantic France and the isles for about 1000 years after that.

So there would have been major linguistic divergence between Iberia and the other Atlantic groups further north who continued to trade with each other cross that period without any significant break. IF there was an Atlantic origin for Celtic it would much more likely have taken place in that northern group in the isles and northern France and the channel as far as the Rhine who did all keep in close interaction without the 1000 year period of disconnection that Iberia experience c. 2200-1200BC.

In that scenario I would expect c. 1200BC a north Atlantic lingua franca with Iberia having a dialect with 1000 years of divergence from them. The Atlantic Iberians would have then come into contact with those north Atlantic people and their language when they joined the party again around 1000BC.

I personally think the northern Atlantic lingua franca was a form of Celtic while I would expect a diverged Italo-Celtic dialect in Atlantic Iberia. So you could almost call me a north Atlanticist albeit I think the constant contact of the north Atlantic with central Europe and copying of the latter's metalwork from 2400-600BC makes me think the Celtic dialect may have been a lingua franca (or perhaps more correctly a linguistic convergence zone/a zone where diverging was prevented by constant elite contact) extended across northern France and down the Rhine and probably into key areas of central Europe.

The direction of influence and prestige dialect shift was probably central Europe to north-west because this is the very dominant direction of the spread of metalwork innovations across 2200-600BC.

alan
09-11-2016, 02:00 PM
I even think the name Gallia Celtica is a clue that Celtic may have had a north Atlantic early focus. If you look at the map, the bulk of it is the bit accessed from rivers flowing from the north-west. These rivers penetrate deep into Gaul and would be natural routes.

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/gaul.jpg

Heber
09-11-2016, 02:20 PM
sorry - I maybe didnt make me post very clear.I mean the period after the initial most widespread beaker network had broken down c. 2200BC. Atlantic Iberia was basically disconnected from Atlantic France and the isles for about 1000 years after that.

So there would have been major linguistic divergence between Iberia and the other Atlantic groups further north who continued to trade with each other cross that period without any significant break. IF there was an Atlantic origin for Celtic it would much more likely have taken place in that northern group in the isles and northern France and the channel as far as the Rhine who did all keep in close interaction without the 1000 year period of disconnection that Iberia experience c. 2200-1200BC.

In that scenario I would expect c. 1200BC a north Atlantic lingua franca with Iberia having a dialect with 1000 years of divergence from them. The Atlantic Iberians would have then come into contact with those north Atlantic people and their language when they joined the party again around 1000BC.

I personally think the northern Atlantic lingua franca was a form of Celtic while I would expect a diverged Italo-Celtic dialect in Atlantic Iberia. So you could almost call me a north Atlanticist albeit I think the constant contact of the north Atlantic with central Europe and copying of the latter's metalwork from 2400-600BC makes me think the Celtic dialect may have been a lingua franca (or perhaps more correctly a linguistic convergence zone/a zone where diverging was prevented by constant elite contact) extended across northern France and down the Rhine and probably into key areas of central Europe.

The direction of influence and prestige dialect shift was probably central Europe to north-west because this is the very dominant direction of the spread of metalwork innovations across 2200-600BC.

It is interesting to revisit the definition of Celtic from the West.
"The PIE parent language reached Atlantic Europe as PIE and then evolved into Celtic there. It did not undergo the linguistic innovations defining Celtic (such as weakening of the *p) in some secondary homeland (such as Central Europe) and then move west in a secondary migration...

However Celtic out of Iberia is not another name for Celtic from the West, but a narrow possibility within the scope of the general proposition....

As both general editors (Cunliffe and Koch) envision it, the principal artery of communication, for which Proto Celtic came to function as the lingua Franca was the Atlantic coastal route itself. The navigable rivers leading into the Center were secondary..."

I have no problem with Celtic from the Atlantic and Koch described it clearly in "Indo-European from the East, Celtic from the West". This is an older version of the current material but is available online.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

mouse
09-11-2016, 02:34 PM
I bought the book thinking that there would be a lot about R1b in it but that is not the case.

Jean M
09-11-2016, 02:43 PM
the Phoencians raise an interesting point. I take a counterview that Iberians brief and late linkage with the much longer interlinked Atlantic groups further north may be due to early contact with the Phoenicians (perhaps before they made any permanent settlements) and borrowing their sail technology.

A recent proposal is that ships from the Mediterranean penetrated not only the Atlantic, but the North Sea and the Baltic, to reach a trading centre in southeast Sweden, established initially by Mycenaeans 1750-1600 BC, succeeded by the Phoenicians in the Late Bronze Age. I'm still mulling this over. We certainly have evidence from Cliffs End, Thanet, Kent, of people from both SW Iberia and Scandinavia being buried there from the Late Bronze Age onward.

But the Phoenicians don't come into the picture in Iberia until the 8th century BC. It is not just a lack of their settlements before then, but any clue at all to their trade with Iberia. The Carthaginian explorer Himilco was sent to investigate the remote northwestern shores of Europe around 500 BC.

Heber
09-11-2016, 03:19 PM
16. Ancient Personal Names in the Iberian Peninsula and Parallels in
Celtic Inscribed Artefacts from Early Medieval Britain and Ireland
Fernando Fernández Palacios 429

Maps of early personal and surnames in Iberia.

In Chapter 16 Fernando Fernandez Palacios draws on extensive research on Palaeohispanic names with both the Hesperian project in Madrid and the AEMA project in Wales. He finds indigenes personal family and place names to be plausibly derived from the Celtic word for 'dog wolf'. A challenge in identifying these forms is that the inherited paradigm has three vowel grades *ku, *kun~, *kon~, and probably also a derived form with full grade *koun~. This is not the only set of Palaeohispanic names with closer parallels in Brythonic and Goidelic and in Gaulish, which raises the interesting questions of whether they represent peripheral survivals of usages that had declined in Gaul or evidence for direct contact by sea

Heber
09-11-2016, 03:20 PM
17. ancillary study: Sound Change, the Italo-Celtic Linguistic
Unity, and the Italian Homeland of Celtic
Peter Schrijver 465

Proposal for a Proto Italo Celtic node.

One long-standing unresolved problem of Indo-European linguistics is where the Celtic and Italic branches (the latter being the ancestral group of Latin) descend from a single protolanguage, Proto-Italic-Celtic. If this was the case, the implications would be incompatible with the idea that Celtic was an eastern Indo-European language as favoured by Isaac (2010) and the late K.H.Schmidt (2012). In Chapter 17 Peter Schrivjer presents a linguistic case for an Italo-Celtic protolanguage.
He finds the closest connections of Celtic with Ventic and Sabellian. On this basis he seeks the Proto-Celtic homeland in Italy and argues for an identification with the Canegrate Urnfield culture of the Italian Late Bronze Age c. 1300-1100 BC, situated north of the upper Po, thus overlapping the territory of the Lepontic inscriptions. This model implies subsequent expansions of Celtic 'out of Italy' to Central Europe, Gaul, the Iberian Peninsula, Britain and Ireland.

Heber
09-11-2016, 03:25 PM
18. Ancillary study: Celtic as Vasconized Indo-European?
Three structural arguments
Theo Vennemann 475

Comparison of Celtic from the West and Vasconic Theory.
Proposal for Celtic as most Vasconized branch of Indo European.

Theo Vennmann is well known for the 'Vasconic theory' which he restates with new arguments in Chapter 18. This theory is essentially that a language family whose only surviving member is Basque in the western Pyrenees was once widespread over western and Central Europe before the arrival of Indo-European. There is an inherent plausibility in that IE is rarely regarded as native to Western Europe, and there is no decisive evidence that Basque came to the region from somewhere else after IE. Vennmann follows and extends the case introduced in Chapter 15 for the evolution of Proto-Indo-European into Proto-Celtic reflecting contact with the p-less Palaeo-Basque and/or Iberian language. Vennmann continues to favour a Central European homeland fro Proto-Celtic.

vettor
09-11-2016, 06:45 PM
17. ancillary study: Sound Change, the Italo-Celtic Linguistic
Unity, and the Italian Homeland of Celtic
Peter Schrijver 465

Proposal for a Proto Italo Celtic node.

One long-standing unresolved problem of Indo-European linguistics is where the Celtic and Italic branches (the latter being the ancestral group of Latin) descend from a single protolanguage, Proto-Italic-Celtic. If this was the case, the implications would be incompatible with the idea that Celtic was an eastern Indo-European language as favoured by Isaac (2010) and the late K.H.Schmidt (2012). In Chapter 17 Peter Schrivjer presents a linguistic case for an Italo-Celtic protolanguage.
He finds the closest connections of Celtic with Ventic and Sabellian. On this basis he seeks the Proto-Celtic homeland in Italy and argues for an identification with the Canegrate Urnfield culture of the Italian Late Bronze Age c. 1300-1100 BC, situated north of the upper Po, thus overlapping the territory of the Lepontic inscriptions. This model implies subsequent expansions of Celtic 'out of Italy' to Central Europe, Gaul, the Iberian Peninsula, Britain and Ireland.

Venetic and Sabellian are adriatic coast people ............the celts arrived via the north and north-west and reached the adriatic coast last.

Heber
09-12-2016, 07:07 AM
Bell Beaker connections along the Atlantic façade: the gold ornaments from Tablada del Rudrón, Burgos, Spain
Fitzpatrick, Guerra Doce, Vazquez (2016)

Abstract
The gold ornaments from a well-furnished burial in the Bell Beaker tumulus at Tablada del Rudrón, Burgos, in northern Spain are very similar to ornaments best known in Britain and Ireland. The insular ornaments, which were either earrings, tress rings or parts of headdresses, have been found in well-furnished graves of the 24-23rd century BC and were symbols of high status. Although the Tablada del Rudrón ornaments are similar to finds from England, they are not identical and their decoration is related to those on a different type of object found in Ireland. This fusion of ‘similar but different’ reflects the nature of the Bell networks along the Atlantic façade.

http://www.archaeopress.com/Public/download.asp?id=%7B0D06803F-CC8D-48DC-8842-668007DF2505%7D

11561

11562

alan
09-12-2016, 05:33 PM
A recent proposal is that ships from the Mediterranean penetrated not only the Atlantic, but the North Sea and the Baltic, to reach a trading centre in southeast Sweden, established initially by Mycenaeans 1750-1600 BC, succeeded by the Phoenicians in the Late Bronze Age. I'm still mulling this over. We certainly have evidence from Cliffs End, Thanet, Kent, of people from both SW Iberia and Scandinavia being buried there from the Late Bronze Age onward.

But the Phoenicians don't come into the picture in Iberia until the 8th century BC. It is not just a lack of their settlements before then, but any clue at all to their trade with Iberia. The Carthaginian explorer Himilco was sent to investigate the remote northwestern shores of Europe around 500 BC.

This is an interesting read http://www.uhu.es/pablo.hidalgo/docencia/registro/archivos/ljsanchez/the%20precolonial%20phoenician%20emporium%20of%20h uelva.pdf



I

Jean M
09-12-2016, 05:44 PM
This is an interesting read

Wow! I'm behind the times. Thanks. I'll put it in the Vault.

alan
09-12-2016, 06:00 PM
A recent proposal is that ships from the Mediterranean penetrated not only the Atlantic, but the North Sea and the Baltic, to reach a trading centre in southeast Sweden, established initially by Mycenaeans 1750-1600 BC, succeeded by the Phoenicians in the Late Bronze Age. I'm still mulling this over. We certainly have evidence from Cliffs End, Thanet, Kent, of people from both SW Iberia and Scandinavia being buried there from the Late Bronze Age onward.

But the Phoenicians don't come into the picture in Iberia until the 8th century BC. It is not just a lack of their settlements before then, but any clue at all to their trade with Iberia. The Carthaginian explorer Himilco was sent to investigate the remote northwestern shores of Europe around 500 BC.

The whole issue of the spread of seaworthy sails and their spread is very interesting and of course little evidence survives for many places and periods. All we know is that in the Iron Age the sail was known among the maritime Celtic groups but was not used by the Germanics until much later. It seems likely that it was known by the late Bronze Age to me but as to when it first spread to NW Europe the evidence is thin. I think the extension of the Atlantic network to include Iberia around 1000BC - a far greater sailing distance - might suggest it existed by then in Atlantic Europe. Could have been earlier. Its curious though that the Germanics seem to have only adopted it very late though. Perhaps that is evidence that the sail only arrived in that zone after the Nordic Bronze Age when today's Germanic areas were in the doldrums. Or perhaps it appealed most to western groups who could use the westerly prevailing winds. The Germanics mostly face the north Sea and would have been against-wind when sailing west. Who knows.

alan
09-12-2016, 06:02 PM
Wow! I'm behind the times. Thanks. I'll put it in the Vault.

As seems to be the norm in Iberian archaeology the dating is wooly but it does suggest its possible that contact existed from 900BC anyway. The probability of course is no trace will remain of the first small scale explorations. I personally feel the sail concept prob spread to Iberia not long after c. 1000BC and Huelva of course has Isles originated bronzes so there is an Iberian stepping stone between Phoenicians and the isles in the later Bronze Age.

Heber
09-12-2016, 06:04 PM
This is an interesting read http://www.uhu.es/pablo.hidalgo/docencia/registro/archivos/ljsanchez/the%20precolonial%20phoenician%20emporium%20of%20h uelva.pdfI

Some very interesting papers on Heuvla and the Iberian Bronze - Iron Age Transition.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

alan
09-12-2016, 06:14 PM
Some very interesting papers on Heuvla and the Iberian Bronze - Iron Age Transition.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

my hunch remains the widening of the Atlantic trade c. 1000BC to attach Iberia to the northern Atlantic network for the first time since the beaker period over 1000 years earlier probably is linked to the spread of the sail concept. Lets put it this way, the stretch of water whereby one would sail north to Brittany and the Isles avoiding the dangerous Biscay waters seemed to have not been used c. 2200-1000BC and then suddenly was. I suspect new technology made that less of a daunting sail and that IMO has got to be the sail. We know of course the sail wasnt known around the isles in the early Bronze Age from the sewn plank boat remains but the sail is well attested among the Atlantic Celts in the Iron Age.

alan
09-12-2016, 06:18 PM
Some very interesting papers on Heuvla and the Iberian Bronze - Iron Age Transition.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

Interesting - slightly different chronology to what I had previous read

Jean M
09-12-2016, 06:52 PM
As seems to be the norm in Iberian archaeology the dating is wooly .

The same team published some radiocarbon dates for animal bones from Huelva, weighted average 930-830 BC. Paper is available https://www.academia.edu/27911861/THE_TWO_PHASES_OF_WESTERN_PHOENICIAN_EXPANSION_BEY OND_THE_HUELVA_FINDS_AN_INTERPRETATION

Heber
09-12-2016, 07:54 PM
Interesting - slightly different chronology to what I had previous read

Here is the chronology in table format.

TImeline
2800 - 2100 BC Bell Beaker Complex. SW Iberia, Tagus, Alentejo
2500 - 1700 BC Bell Beaker Ireland. Ross Island, Rathlin, BB in Megalithic Sites
1200 - 800. BC. Atlantic Late Bronze Age. Ireland, Britain, Brittany, Galicia, SW Iberia
1050 - 900 BC. Ria de Huevla Depositions. Huevla, Rio Tinto
900 BC. Arrival of the Phoenicians. Huevla, Gadiz, Tartessos

11577

11578

11579

11580

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

alan
09-12-2016, 09:57 PM
Here is the chronology in table format.

TImeline
2800 - 2100 BC Bell Beaker Complex. SW Iberia, Tagus, Alentejo
2500 - 1700 BC Bell Beaker Ireland. Ross Island, Rathlin, BB in Megalithic Sites
1200 - 800. BC. Atlantic Late Bronze Age. Ireland, Britain, Brittany, Galicia, SW Iberia
1050 - 900 BC. Ria de Huevla Depositions. Huevla, Rio Tinto
900 BC. Arrival of the Phoenicians. Huevla, Gadiz, Tartessos

11577

11578

11579

11580

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

I will have to have a read of that because I read other recent stuff where someone went to some pains the show Iberia didnt joint the Atlantic network till 1000BC or after. I dont have time now but will have a read over the stuff you posted on chronology soon.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-12-2016, 10:55 PM
Some very interesting papers on Heuvla and the Iberian Bronze - Iron Age Transition.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

Interesting paragraphs
It's states that it is "today generally accepted" that the primary split is Hispano-Celtic vs Gallic-Brittpnic- Goidelic .
But does the latter (Goidellic) really lies so close to Brittonic - Gallic ?

I'd have thought more like: Hispano-Celtic(Goidellic(Gallic ; Brittonic))

___________
With regard to the metalwork, Burgess & O'Connor warn
"These connections were, however, hardly sufficient
to talk yet of an Atlantic Bronze Age. Even at an advanced
stage of the Middle Bronze Age, the Channel core area
had to its north a Low Countries zone which, as one proceeds north, was increasingly influenced by northern Germany. "

The real tangible influences and incorporation of Iberia, they argue, came with Urnfield period, and I'd be inclined to agree.
The Atlantic zone of Iberia is where the archaic, pre-Celtic idioms of Lusitanian are found.

alan
09-12-2016, 11:41 PM
The real problem is the linguistic evidence only kicks in in the 600sBC while the period they are placing the initial spread of proto-Celtic is 1200-900BC. That gap will always leave room for many scenarios to be suggested.

I think its very healthy to have such vigerous pushing of an alternative to the old C. European Celtic origin model. I even think it is partly correct. However, I think if an Atlantic model is to be viable it needs major modification and the strange emphasis on Iberia needs to end. Iberia can certainly be part of it but I suspect it was a receiver not the origin point of Atlantic Celtic. In order to keep an Atlantic model for Celtic origin, and square it with the Celto-Germanic vocab from the pre-proto-German phase then the ancestors of the proto-Celts would surely have had to have at least originally have had a long period in contact with pre-proto-Germans who probably lived around the North Sea shores. That could not have taken place so far west as Iberia and a location no further west than the Rhine area seems much more plausible.

Alternatively perhaps this shared Celto-Germanic vocab occurred very early - such as the period when beaker and CW overlapped in or around Germany for several centuries after 2500BC and this was at a later stage in a pre-proto-Celtic form transported to Iberia. Certainly Celtic cannot have simply evolved from local beaker and beaker-descended groups in Iberia - a period of intimate Celtic-German contact in the pre-proto phase has to have happened first before an ancestor of Celtic could have been transplanted into Iberia. That had to have happened at some point between 2500BC and 1200BC if any Iberian origin for proto-Celtic is to be argued.

alan
09-12-2016, 11:54 PM
Interesting paragraphs
It's states that it is "today generally accepted" that the primary split is Hispano-Celtic vs Gallic-Brittpnic- Goidelic .
But does the latter (Goidellic) really lies so close to Brittonic - Gallic ?

I'd have thought more like: Hispano-Celtic(Goidellic(Gallic ; Brittonic))

___________
With regard to the metalwork, Burgess & O'Connor warn
"These connections were, however, hardly sufficient
to talk yet of an Atlantic Bronze Age. Even at an advanced
stage of the Middle Bronze Age, the Channel core area
had to its north a Low Countries zone which, as one proceeds north, was increasingly influenced by northern Germany. "

The real tangible influences and incorporation of Iberia, they argue, came with Urnfield period, and I'd be inclined to agree.
The Atlantic zone of Iberia is where the archaic, pre-Celtic idioms of Lusitanian are found.

yes most linguists now see extreme similarity in the insular Celtic languages and the Q-P split basically an aerial shift. Far more, including profound structural aspects like VSO word order set insular Celtic apart from the others. The knowledge that Hispano-Celtic split or branched off first has been around for maybe 20 years or more. The order of the split was probably Iberian from insular/Gaulish then Gaulish from insular then insular into Irish and British. That sort of model has been supported by the best linguists for some time and is much more convincing than old ideas which emphased the P-Q split. Unfortunately a lot of people read popular books which recycle models that have actually been hugely undermined for quarter of a century. Its even worse with the use of the Book of Invasions. Its been forensically taken apart and discredited as a source of any genuine facts for about 40 years+ but still people take it seriously.

Heber
09-13-2016, 01:14 AM
The real problem is the linguistic evidence only kicks in in the 600sBC while the period they are placing the initial spread of proto-Celtic is 1200-900BC. That gap will always leave room for many scenarios to be suggested.

I think its very healthy to have such vigerous pushing of an alternative to the old C. European Celtic origin model. I even think it is partly correct. However, I think if an Atlantic model is to be viable it needs major modification and the strange emphasis on Iberia needs to end. Iberia can certainly be part of it but I suspect it was a receiver not the origin point of Atlantic Celtic. In order to keep an Atlantic model for Celtic origin, and square it with the Celto-Germanic vocab from the pre-proto-German phase then the ancestors of the proto-Celts would surely have had to have at least originally have had a long period in contact with pre-proto-Germans who probably lived around the North Sea shores. That could not have taken place so far west as Iberia and a location no further west than the Rhine area seems much more plausible.

Alternatively perhaps this shared Celto-Germanic vocab occurred very early - such as the period when beaker and CW overlapped in or around Germany for several centuries after 2500BC and this was at a later stage in a pre-proto-Celtic form transported to Iberia. Certainly Celtic cannot have simply evolved from local beaker and beaker-descended groups in Iberia - a period of intimate Celtic-German contact in the pre-proto phase has to have happened first before an ancestor of Celtic could have been transplanted into Iberia. That had to have happened at some point between 2500BC and 1200BC if any Iberian origin for proto-Celtic is to be argued.

The old discredited model had Celtic Halstatt in contact with Germanic in the Iron Age as does the new model.
There were also many opportunities for Pre Proto Celtic speakers to exchange with the Pre Proto Germanic speakers in the highly mobile, rapidly expanding Bell Beaker Culture.
Hallast, Tyler Smith, Xue and Wei have clearly shown the rapid expansion of R1b in Europe and P312 in the Atlantic Zone.
I am sure someone in the future will model the expansion of P312 and U106 (and defining mutations) branch by branch and year by year using expanded modern and aDNA datasets to give us a better idea of the potential contact points.

11585

11586

The background of The celtic languages: Theories from archaeology and Linguistics.

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/GibsonWodtko.pdf

It is a misunderstanding to think that Celtic as an Indo-Europeanised language could only move from East to West, like lemmings walking over the Atlantic coast.
Koch describes clearly in Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West that traffic was in both directions and Cunliffe highlights that point in CW2016.P2.
In fact the best documented and greatest migrations of the Celts in ancient times flowed eastward down the Danube, into the Balkans, then Delphi and onwards to central Anatolia.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 02:02 AM
The old discredited model had Celtic Halstatt in contact with Germanic in the Iron Age as does the new model.
There were also many opportunities for Pre Proto Celtic speakers to exchange with the Pre Proto Germanic speakers in the highly mobile, rapidly expanding Bell Beaker Culture.
Hallast, Tyler Smith, Xue and Wei have clearly shown the rapid expansion of R1b in Europe and P312 in the Atlantic Zone.
I am sure someone in the future will model the expansion of P312 and U106 (and defining mutations) branch by branch and year by year using expanded modern and aDNA datasets to give us a better idea of the potential contact points.

11585

11586

The background of The celtic languages: Theories from archaeology and Linguistics.

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/GibsonWodtko.pdf

It is a misunderstanding to think that Celtic as an Indo-Europeanised language could only move from East to West, like lemmings walking over the Atlantic coast.
Koch describes clearly in Indo European from the East, Celtic from the West that traffic was in both directions and Cunliffe highlights that point in CW2016.P2.
In fact the best documented and greatest migrations of the Celts in ancient times flowed eastward down the Danube, into the Balkans, then Delphi and onwards to central Anatolia.

https://www.academia.edu/8299894/Indo-European_from_the_east_and_Celtic_from_the_west_re conciling_models_for_languages_in_later_prehistory

Discredited per whom ?
The Halstatt Chiefs were the centre of LBA- early Iron Age western Europe. What did the Atlantic fringe have in comparison which would make the former adopt the language of the latter ? (Just asking here, not dismissing)

Heber
09-13-2016, 08:44 AM
Discredited per whom ?
The Halstatt Chiefs were the centre of LBA- early Iron Age western Europe. What did the Atlantic fringe have in comparison which would make the former adopt the language of the latter ? (Just asking here, not dismissing)

From Archealogy, The Halstatt model ignores the Atlantic Bronze Age which was the "golden" age of exchanges in what are the traditional Celtic speaking countries. If we relate Celtic to Bell Beaker the Archealogy clearly shows an Atlantic Bell Beaker contact zone along the Atlantic facade.

From Linguistics, the CW model depends on contact with Paeleo Basque and Paeleo Iberian. The Halstatt model does not support this. The reconstructed tree of IE languages does not support an Iron Age birth of Celtic in Halstatt.

From genetics, if we assume Celtic is derived from Bell Beaker which expanded with R1b-P312 then Cassidy shows that L21 had already arrived on the Atlantic Zone in Ireland before 2000 BC. The estimated age of P312 is pushed back to the EBA, CA, LBA.

11588

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

Here are the notes I posted back in 2010 when the idea was first mooted. Even then prior to two major iterations the Halstatt model was looking untenable.

Here are some of the highlights
Part 1. Archealogy.
Celtization from the West, the contribution of architecture. Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade.
Fig 1.2 Distribution of mature La Tene culture. Includes the Isles and France, Germany, Switzerland.
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonization. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkens, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Meditterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earlist tombs - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millenium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Meditteranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archealogical ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stela fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.
Part 2: Genetics.
Western Celts? A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genomeshowing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day. Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade...
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of gnetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradiant from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.
Part 3 Language and Literature, origins of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tounge. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurance of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfiels and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotal,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

The Oxbow summary follows:
This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.



When the idea was first pr

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 09:04 AM
From Archealogy, The Halstatt model ignores the Atlantic Bronze Age which was the "golden" age of exchanges in what are the traditional Celtic speaking countries. If we relate Celtic to Bell Beaker the Archealogy clearly shows an Atlantic Bell Beaker contact zone along the Atlantic facade.

From Linguistics, the CW model depends on contact with Paeleo Basque and Paeleo Iberian. The Halstatt model do not support this. The reconstructed tree of IE languages does not support an Iron Age birth of Celtic in Halstatt

From genetics, if we assume Celtic is derived from Bell Beaker which expanded with R1b-P312 then Cassidy shows that L21 had already arrived on the Atlantic Zone in Ireland before 2000 BC.

11588

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K-qZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=huelva+celtic&source=bl&ots=ByTFmBcXkQ&sig=jNyNxR4ZNQ0EYrkBRdk7zDwg6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK3tzrs4rPAhXmBsAKHYhkD00Q6AEIHTAB#v=on epage&q=huelva%20celtic&f=false

Here are the notes I posted back in 2010 when the idea was first mooted. Even then prior to two major iterations the Halstatt model was looking untenable.

Here are some of the highlights
Part 1. Archealogy.
Celtization from the West, the contribution of architecture. Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade.
Fig 1.2 Distribution of mature La Tene culture. Includes the Isles and France, Germany, Switzerland.
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonization. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkens, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Meditterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earlist tombs - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millenium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Meditteranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archealogical ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stela fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.
Part 2: Genetics.
Western Celts? A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genomeshowing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day. Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade...
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of gnetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradiant from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.
Part 3 Language and Literature, origins of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tounge. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurance of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfiels and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotal,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

The Oxbow summary follows:
This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.



When the idea was first pr

Thanks for your reply.
However, the Halstatt model doesn't need Basque contact . That is only an assumption & requisite for the CW model, nor does it need the long debated position that Tartessian is Celticz

Secondly, in all fairness, the presence of L21 in 2400 BC Shouldnt be interpreted too simplistically, because very few linguists will be happy to make such equation as you have just done . Can you prove to me what exact language the man in Rathlin island spoke?

Thirdly you speak of "the tree" doesn't support a Halstatt model. What "tree" are you talking of ? The one which posits italo - Celtic split off in 3200 BC, despite the fact that in 3200 BC Yamnaya was still all compact & together; and that Italic probably didn't split off "core western IE" before 2000 BC?

I'm not saying Halstatt was the proto-Celtic; but it most undoubtedly elicited an important wave of influence. Ultimately, I'm not saying the CW is wrong, I'm just pointing out it'll need to come up with an answer as to how CW Celticized Central Europe. Pointing out that it was a "Golden age" doesn't really suffice

Heber
09-13-2016, 09:09 AM
This is the timeline showing the branching of the tree according to the CW model.
It is largely pre Iron Age.
11589

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 09:17 AM
This is the timeline showing the branching of the tree according to the CW model.
It is largely pre Iron Age.
11589

I agree wholly with such a chronology (btw by "Halstatt" I meant "Hallstatt period Europe"- which begins in 1200 BC, rather than the actual/ narrowly defined Halstatt culture (800 BC) in isolation.)
The issue now is of exactly where and social praxis . IMHO- this might relate to the the Bronze Age collapses, arrival of new Mediterranean traders in the southern coasts of W.E.; and rise of continental hereditary chiefdoms (I believe pointed out by Collis & Kristiansen)

Good luck with it :beerchug:

Jean M
09-13-2016, 10:26 AM
This is the timeline showing the branching of the tree according to the CW model.

And here is my timeline from Blood of the Celts:

11591

Jean M
09-13-2016, 10:35 AM
I agree wholly with such a chronology

You agree without doubt that Proto-Celtic arose in the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, rather than in Alpine west/central Europe? I'm sure Profs Koch and Cunliffe would be thrilled by your enthusiasm for an idea that has gone over like a lead balloon among the cognoscenti. :biggrin1:

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 10:37 AM
You agree without doubt that Proto-Celtic arose in the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, rather than in Alpine west/central Europe? I'm sure Profs Koch and Cunliffe would be thrilled by your enthusiasm for an idea that has gone over like a lead balloon among the cognoscenti. :biggrin1:

:)
Cmon Jean: the key word was "chronology" , not location
Is not sometime between MBA- to LBA the consensus amongst the cognoscenti ?
soon enough corroborative evidence will come via aDNA

Jean M
09-13-2016, 11:10 AM
:) Cmon Jean: the key word was "chronology" , not location

You relieve my mind. But frankly the Celtic-from-the-West debate is much more over location than chronology. A number of other archaeologists have dropped the once-popular idea that Celtic spread with La Tene. Kristiansen recently declared that idea dead.

The alternative view that Celtic spread with Bell Beaker has been around for decades and is gaining ground. But that does not require an origin for Proto-Celtic in Iberia, as I demonstrated in Blood of the Celts.

Jean M
09-13-2016, 11:29 AM
soon enough corroborative evidence will come via aDNA

Ancient DNA can tell us when and where people moved around. It cannot of itself tell us exactly what language they were speaking. We can make the deduction that migration could carry a new language. We can then fit that to the linguistic evidence. That is exactly what Dan Bradley's team at Trinity College Dublin did in the Cassidy 2015 paper. They showed that two men at Rathlin Island, Northern Island 2026–1885 BC and 2024–1741 BC (and another at a slightly later date) carried R1b-L21 and were autosomally similar to modern Irish people (descendants of people who once spoke a Celtic langauage), while being distinctly different to the EEF woman found in Northern Ireland. Their conclusion was that the Early Bronze Age could be the period at which the speakers of Celtic arrived in Ireland.

So matters are pretty clear already. More aDNA from all over the former Celtic-speaking world would be very welcome though.

Heber
09-13-2016, 11:59 AM
You agree without doubt that Proto-Celtic arose in the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, rather than in Alpine west/central Europe? I'm sure Profs Koch and Cunliffe would be thrilled by your enthusiasm for an idea that has gone over like a lead balloon among the cognoscenti. :biggrin1:

Who are these mysterious cognoscenti. Not the Westward Ho? Sword-Bearers and All the Rest of it crowd.:).
Do they speak or master celtic languages. Do they master Celtic archealogy?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 12:35 PM
A number of other archaeologists have dropped the once-popular idea that Celtic spread with La Tene. Kristiansen recently declared that idea dead.



Ancient DNA can tell us when and where people moved around. It cannot of itself tell us exactly what language they were speaking. We can make the deduction that migration could carry a new language. We can then fit that to the linguistic evidence. That is exactly what Dan Bradley's team at Trinity College Dublin, did in the Cassidy 2015 paper. They showed that two men at Rathlin Island, Northern Island 2026–1885 BC and 2024–1741 BC (and another at a slightly later date) carried R1b-L21 and were autosomally similar to modern Irish people (descendants of people who once spoke a Celtic langauage), while being distictly different to the EEF woman found in Northern Ireland. Their conclusion was that the Early Bronze Age could be the period at which the speakers of Celtic arrived in Ireland.

So matters are pretty clear already. More aDNA from all over the former Celtic-speaking world would be very welcome though.


The alternative view that Celtic spread with Bell Beaker has been around for decades and is gaining ground.

I agree with everything you say Jean, apart from the one relatively minor but important detail, and its probably semantics.

The idea that "Celtic" per se spread with BB is simply impossible for several reasons, and it is somewhat Celto-centrist by design.

First of all: linguists generally attribute the terminus post quem for the break up of proto-Celtic to some time in the second millenium. We know the La Tene model is out, so we don't even need to speak of it, it is simply far too late. The similarity of Celtic, aspects of their shared vocabulary & their cultural chronology, as well as the need for Celtic's influence on Germanic (which only really came into existance 500 BC, placing pre-Germanic to late M2), all point to the mid to late Bronze Age. I don't think this has ever really been debated much by linguists.

Then we have to remember the existence of non-Celtic western European languages (not including Germanic), like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venedic, not to mention, Italic, which all must also have come with Beaker, as per the model.
So quite obviously, BB can only be "early, western PIE", or pre-Celto-Italo-Liguro-Lusitano-Venedic, or whatever we might want to call it . At such an early juncture (2400 - 2000 BC), this language is basically just late dialectical Indo-European. Language takes time to differentiate and 'split', especially in these early IE groups who were obviously mobile and kept back n forth contacts with each other, which would have only retarded language differentiation further.

Moreover, I contend that this 'early western PIE" was still limited to the Rhine - Danube, and its outposts in Britain & Ireland. The steppe admixture hadn't really moved to Iberia or Italy; thus the proto-Italics had not even split off, until after c. 2200 BC. The break-up of western PIE this took place after 2000 BC, marking the beginning of a concerted development toward proto-Celtic, followed several hundred years later with the a splitting of proto-Celtic itself, where exactly is a secondary concern of mine. The expansion of this Celtic propper over earlier IE dialects in Britain could have been afforded by a few people- women, traders, royal patronage, families, etc, hence keeping it mostly L21 composition, and given that these newcomers were from a similar stock, the autosomal make up is unchanged.

Isidro
09-13-2016, 01:06 PM
I agree wholly with such a chronology (btw by "Halstatt" I meant "Hallstatt period Europe"- which begins in 1200 BC, rather than the actual/ narrowly defined Halstatt culture (800 BC) in isolation.)
The issue now is of exactly where and social praxis . IMHO- this might relate to the the Bronze Age collapses, arrival of new Mediterranean traders in the southern coasts of W.E.; and rise of continental hereditary chiefdoms (I believe pointed out by Collis & Kristiansen)

Good luck with it :beerchug:

Hallstatt period is worth looking into it, it follows The Urnfield culture (c. 1300 BCE – 750 BCE) was a late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age) culture of central Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).
There is no doubt that it did come into existence way prior to 800BC, the salt mines , in essence the "raison d'etre" probably reached a high 600 to 800 BC due to demographics and population demand for salt not only for consumption but for preservation in the middle of a continent, hence it's size, but is there a society or structure surrounding such territory chronologically between 2000 and 1000 BC?.

razyn
09-13-2016, 01:44 PM
I agree with everything you say Jean, apart from the one relatively minor but important detail, and its probably semantics.

The idea that "Celtic" per se spread with BB is simply impossible for several reasons, and it is somewhat Celto-centrist by design.

First of all: linguists generally attribute the terminus post quem for the break up of proto-Celtic to some time in the second millenium. We know the La Tene model is out, so we don't even need to speak of it, it is simply far too late. The similarity of Celtic, aspects of their shared vocabulary & their cultural chronology, as well as the need for Celtic's influence on Germanic (which only really came into existance 500 BC, placing pre-Germanic to late M2), all point to the mid to late Bronze Age. I don't think this has ever really been debated much by linguists.

Then we have to remember the existence of non-Celtic western European languages (not including Germanic), like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venedic, not to mention, Italic, which all must also have come with Beaker, as per the model.
So quite obviously, BB can only be "early, western PIE", or pre-Celto-Italo-Liguro-Lusitano-Venedic, or whatever we might want to call it . At such an early juncture (2400 - 2000 BC), this language is basically just late dialectical Indo-European. Language takes time to differentiate and 'split', especially in these early IE groups who were obviously mobile and kept back n forth contacts with each other, which would have only retarded language differentiation further.

Moreover, I contend that this 'early western PIE" was still limited to the Rhine - Danube, and its outposts in Britain & Ireland. The steppe admixture hadn't really moved to Iberia or Italy; thus the proto-Italics had not even split off, until after c. 2200 BC. The break-up of western PIE this took place after 2000 BC, marking the beginning of a concerted development toward proto-Celtic, followed several hundred years later with the a splitting of proto-Celtic itself, where exactly is a secondary concern of mine. The expansion of this Celtic propper over earlier IE dialects in Britain could have been afforded by a few people- women, traders, royal patronage, families, etc, hence keeping it mostly L21 composition, and given that these newcomers were from a similar stock, the autosomal make up is unchanged.

I agree with most of this, but don't think its minor theoretical variance from Jean's timeline is mostly semantics. It's mostly gaps in the timeline. The bigger one is 2800-2200 (then something happens); then there's another gap from 1700-1200 (until something else happens).

The Bell Beaker sample I0806 (from the Haak et al. 2015 paper, and more recent ones) has within the past week been identified as R1b-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250. It was originally radiocarbon dated (time of death of the sample) to 2296-2206 BCE; and he was over 50, so born around 2310 BCE, plus or minus 50 years. Basically, he's at the tail end of Jean's first, 600 year gap. During that interval of time (and space) the P312 mutation happened somewhere; its large Z40481 branch diverged from L21 (which is found diversified on Rathlin Island, pretty much at the end of the same gap) and others (DF19, L238, Y18209, A9063); the DF99 and ZZ37 men had gone, or would go, one way, while ZZ11 went another; the U152 part of ZZ11 may have stayed mostly close to the Alps -- assuming this movement was actually from the head of the Danube to the head of the Rhine -- but the DF27 part was present (at least) on the Elbe watershed, getting buried at Quedlinburg among fellow Bell Beakers in a former Corded Ware cemetery. About a thousand years later, this area was speaking Germanic; but that language family as such falls into a separate gap on this timeline.

Jean M
09-13-2016, 01:52 PM
Who are these mysterious cognoscenti. ... Do they speak or master celtic languages. Do they master Celtic archeaology?

A fair selection of the cognoscenti have had their papers published in the three Celtic from the West books. To me the crucial ones are linguists. Fundamentally this is a linguistic question. This does not mean that I could just ask any native Welsh-speaker that I know to give me an opinion on the topic. Years ago I spent ages arguing with some native Welsh speakers who had been completely brain-washed by Celtoscepticism. :) One of them could scarcely believe Blood of the Celts when it came out! It's a funny old world.

I'm going with academic linguists, who point out that Proto-Celtic developed either from a common ancestor with Proto-Italic, or in close proximity to the latter, and also in contact with pre-Germanic, and in some contact with an Iranian language (plausibly that of the Cimmerians who moved up the Danube from the steppe and fed into the developing Hallstatt culture such things as wagon burials.)

Jean M
09-13-2016, 02:04 PM
I agree with everything you say Jean, apart from the one relatively minor but important detail, and its probably semantics. The idea that "Celtic" per se spread with BB is simply impossible for several reasons.

I was referring to the fact that a spread with Bell Beaker has been proposed by a series of archaeologists from the 1930s onwards. To be exact: Hubert 1934, 186; Dillon and Chadwick 1967, 4; Corcoran 1970, 24; Anthony 2007, 367. I simply meant that this idea was not novel to Cunliffe and Koch.

I quibble with it. I feel that early Bell Beaker people most probably spoke something closer to Alteuropäisch/Old European, which would explain the place-names deduced to come from that language in both Iberia and the British Isles. As you can see on my timeline, I see Early Celtic, Italic and Ligurian probably in Late Bell Beaker 2200-1700 BC. Then Celtic in 1200-750 BC Bronze Age Hallstatt, as has been generally supposed.

moesan
09-13-2016, 03:53 PM
Venetic and Sabellian are adriatic coast people ............the celts arrived via the north and north-west and reached the adriatic coast last.

They have not always being there. They are come surely from somewhere in North as other meta-italic languages, so Central Europe in a broad acception of the word. But this hypothesis placing first Celts in Northern Italy, if not changing too many things because North Italy was "member" of the Alpine region in some way, seems to me giving a too recent date for birthday of Celtic languages.
As I'm taking part - with humility - in the discussion, I give my point concerning strata (sub- or super-): we cannot assign the phonetic tendancies of known today language of Spain to all ancient (pre-latin) pops of Iberia; Atlantic fringes and Iberia share some common phonetic features ( a lot found in Celtic languages, maybe inherited from non-Celts) but Basques and Gascons/Aquitanians are apart and even it should be maybe 2 distinct substrata in North-Spain which have influenced Castillan romance making a very distinct post-latin language. So generalization for ancient Iberia is mistaking, I think.Maybe a kind of Cantabrican substrata giving the basking of the 'zh'/'sh' sound in the mouth - tendancy found at lower level in Poitou-Charente France - and independently the aspiration of F- >> /h//X/; all that is uncertain but the point is a certain heterogeneity in ancient Iberia even before Celts or Latins or others.

moesan
09-13-2016, 05:30 PM
I have not red as many books as you.
I give just some remarks, whatever their worth; sorry by advance for my english:
- the Halstatt thing is a fact; it is maybe not purely Celtic. The cultural peak of Hallstatt does not mark by force the birth of a completely new culture nor the birth of an ethny! Concerning the possible cradle of true Celts - I personally see it in a rather large enough territory, but with strongholds around Western Alps and Rhine/Danube - it seems having received there a new elite (roughly said one for four among rich tombs?), is that to prove this new elite was the true Celts? Hallstatt heritage seems having been partly "absorbed" in La Tène period (more egalitarian or less highly hyerarchized, new settlements in other places). Here I say: things did not begin there with Hallstatt period. It recalls me when people think a subpop separates itself from the main pop at the very time a new SNP appears in its tree; time correlations are not so simple.
- proto-Lusitanians: I see them as close enough to proto-Celts, as were maybe the proto-Ligurians: results of mixing between predecessors and western I-Eans without a too deep forking yet.
- syntax: the neo-Celtic languages of today are all from the Isles. Have we an Celtiberian syntax as influenced by supposed semitic-hamitic substratum? (or an other; I avow I'm without any knowledge here) - If I rely on someones, the known continental Celtic syntax was not so different from other I-Eans syntaxes of the time. So how a Celtic language expansion from West-Iberia would have celtized the Alps regions without transmitting them its peculiar syntax? A local Alps evolution does not seem too evident here. I rather think the syntaxic evolution occurred a bit later in the isles by cause of a substratum which is still to be found. We can suppose elite writings were different from folk pronounciation after some times but if elites had a "normal" I-Ean syntax even after having lived a long time in Iberia or around, the supposed Atlantic substratum is not BY FORCE the launcher of Celtic and the today syntax of Isles Celtic (Breton among them) cannot be taken as a reference for ancient Celtiberian, supposed direct heir of proto-Celtic by someones, except if we have examples of Celtiberian syntax checking it; no proof based upon the modern syntax by itself, I think.

vettor
09-13-2016, 06:51 PM
They have not always being there. They are come surely from somewhere in North as other meta-italic languages, so Central Europe in a broad acception of the word. But this hypothesis placing first Celts in Northern Italy, if not changing too many things because North Italy was "member" of the Alpine region in some way, seems to me giving a too recent date for birthday of Celtic languages.
As I'm taking part - with humility - in the discussion, I give my point concerning strata (sub- or super-): we cannot assign the phonetic tendancies of known today language of Spain to all ancient (pre-latin) pops of Iberia; Atlantic fringes and Iberia share some common phonetic features ( a lot found in Celtic languages, maybe inherited from non-Celts) but Basques and Gascons/Aquitanians are apart and even it should be maybe 2 distinct substrata in North-Spain which have influenced Castillan romance making a very distinct post-latin language. So generalization for ancient Iberia is mistaking, I think.Maybe a kind of Cantabrican substrata giving the basking of the 'zh'/'sh' sound in the mouth - tendancy found at lower level in Poitou-Charente France - and independently the aspiration of F- >> /h//X/; all that is uncertain but the point is a certain heterogeneity in ancient Iberia even before Celts or Latins or others.

I am stating the first celts appear in Central germany from ethnic Gallic people, they ( celts )then moved and absorbed the gallics in southern germany before going into the alps

mouse
09-13-2016, 07:42 PM
Ancient DNA can tell us when and where people moved around. It cannot of itself tell us exactly what language they were speaking. We can make the deduction that migration could carry a new language. We can then fit that to the linguistic evidence. That is exactly what Dan Bradley's team at Trinity College Dublin did in the Cassidy 2015 paper. They showed that two men at Rathlin Island, Northern Island 2026–1885 BC and 2024–1741 BC (and another at a slightly later date) carried R1b-L21 and were autosomally similar to modern Irish people (descendants of people who once spoke a Celtic langauage), while being distinctly different to the EEF woman found in Northern Ireland. Their conclusion was that the Early Bronze Age could be the period at which the speakers of Celtic arrived in Ireland.

So matters are pretty clear already. More aDNA from all over the former Celtic-speaking world would be very welcome though.

How do we know that the Bell Beaker people changed the language of the native peoples who lived in Ireland?

Jean M
09-13-2016, 07:46 PM
I am stating the first celts appear in Central germany from ethnic Gallic people, they ( celts )then moved and absorbed the gallics in southern germany before going into the alps

You are getting confused by the terminology again. The Galli (Gauls) spoke a Celtic language. There were other Celtic languages. The Galli (Gauls) are therefore just one branch of the Celts. The Galli were indeed very mobile in the period when there were literate Greeks and Romans to write down these things. So we have a written record of the Gauls ejecting the Etruscans from the Po Valley c. 400 BC, and the Gauls entering Asia Minor, where the Greeks called them Galatoi (Galatae in Latin) c. 280 BC and so on.

But this is not the start of the story of the Celts. The story of the Celts begins in pre-history. That is a long time before the Classical Greeks and Romans even existed. That early period, the very start of the story, is what this thread is about.

Jean M
09-13-2016, 08:00 PM
How do we know that the Bell Beaker people changed the language of the native peoples who lived in Ireland?

The people who lived in Ireland before the Bell Beaker people were:


Mesolithic. The first arrivals were a few hunter-gatherers. We don't know what language they spoke, but it would have vanished when the island was settled by farmers.
Neolithic. The first farmers arrived c. 3800 BC. They would have brought their own language, derived from a language or languages which were brought to Europe from Anatolia with farming from about 7000 BC. These languages have left few traces. But we know that they did not belong to the Indo-European family, which was born too late to have travelled with the early farmers.


So the earliest migration which could have brought an Indo-European language to Ireland was Bell Beaker. It seems from certain place-names that the first Indo-European language in Ireland was Old European, a bit closer to the original Indo-European language (PIE) than to Celtic, but Celtic must have arrived fairly soon thereafter, because Ireland is remarkable for the lack of non-Celtic linguistic traces in place-names etc.

mouse
09-13-2016, 08:29 PM
The people who lived in Ireland before the Bell Beaker people were:


Mesolithic. The first arrivals were a few hunter-gatherers. We don't know what language they spoke, but it would have vanished when the island was settled by farmers.
Neolithic. The first farmers arrived c. 3800 BC. They would have brought their own language, derived from a language or languages which were brought to Europe from Anatolia with farming from about 7000 BC. These languages have left few traces. But we know that they did not belong to the Indo-European family, which was born too late to have travelled with the early farmers.


So the earliest migration which could have brought an Indo-European language to Ireland was Bell Beaker. It seems from certain place-names that the first Indo-European language in Ireland was Old European, a bit closer to the original Indo-European language (PIE) than to Celtic, but Celtic must have arrived fairly soon thereafter, because Ireland is remarkable for the lack of non-Celtic linguistic traces in place-names etc.

We know that Rathlin Islanders did not leave any Y descendants and Rathlin's K13 is a strange result for a Celt.
K13, M232268, Rathlin 1,Ireland BA.
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.4
6 Amerindian 2.2
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06
9 Siberian 0.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Brahmin_UP @ 4.14
2 94.3% Norwegian + 5.7% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.15
3 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Gujarati @ 4.18
4 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Kshatriya @ 4.18
5 95% Norwegian + 5% Sindhi @ 4.24
6 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Kanjar @ 4.25
7 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kurumba @ 4.26
8 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% Kalash @ 4.26
9 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Velamas @ 4.27
10 96% Norwegian + 4% Piramalai @ 4.27
11 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Dharkar @ 4.29
12 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% North_Kannadi @ 4.29
13 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% Dusadh @ 4.29
14 95.7% Norwegian + 4.3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 4.29
15 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kol @ 4.3
16 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Burusho @ 4.31
17 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Pathan @ 4.31
18 95.4% Norwegian + 4.6% Bangladeshi @ 4.33
19 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Sakilli @ 4.33
20 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Chamar @ 4.34

Jean M
09-13-2016, 09:00 PM
We know that Rathlin Islanders did not leave any Y descendants.

Really? I confess that I had not heard this. So they were all L21, but the L21 that saturates Ireland today is from other L21 men who arrived in the Bell Beaker period, but did not get buried in some convenient place to be found and DNA tested just yet? Frankly this is just par for the course with aDNA.

ArmandoR1b
09-13-2016, 09:09 PM
We know that Rathlin Islanders did not leave any Y descendants and Rathlin's K13 is a strange result for a Celt.
K13, M232268, Rathlin 1,Ireland BA.
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.4
6 Amerindian 2.2
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06
9 Siberian 0.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Brahmin_UP @ 4.14
2 94.3% Norwegian + 5.7% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.15
3 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Gujarati @ 4.18
4 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Kshatriya @ 4.18
5 95% Norwegian + 5% Sindhi @ 4.24
6 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Kanjar @ 4.25
7 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kurumba @ 4.26
8 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% Kalash @ 4.26
9 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Velamas @ 4.27
10 96% Norwegian + 4% Piramalai @ 4.27
11 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Dharkar @ 4.29
12 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% North_Kannadi @ 4.29
13 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% Dusadh @ 4.29
14 95.7% Norwegian + 4.3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 4.29
15 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kol @ 4.3
16 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Burusho @ 4.31
17 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Pathan @ 4.31
18 95.4% Norwegian + 4.6% Bangladeshi @ 4.33
19 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Sakilli @ 4.33
20 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Chamar @ 4.34

I have found Eurogenes K13 Oracle-4 to be the best way to find the populations that a person belongs to. The regular Oracle is pretty much trash for a lot of Europeans.

Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.40
6 Amerindian 2.20
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Norwegian @ 5.854991
2 Swedish @ 6.378155
3 Danish @ 6.435699
4 North_Dutch @ 6.943228
5 North_German @ 7.111557
6 Irish @ 8.086287
7 Orcadian @ 8.527667
8 West_Scottish @ 8.822106
9 Southeast_English @ 10.981000
10 Southwest_English @ 11.587136
11 North_Swedish @ 12.113091
12 South_Dutch @ 14.523604
13 West_German @ 15.031170
14 East_German @ 17.276731
15 Austrian @ 17.773823
16 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.165777
17 French @ 21.226280
18 Hungarian @ 21.971560
19 South_Polish @ 25.624912
20 La_Brana-1 @ 26.125484

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Swedish @ 5.763251


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Swedish +25% Swedish +25% West_Scottish @ 5.718463


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.654887
2 Danish + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673533
3 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.695946
4 Irish + Swedish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.708336
5 Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.714194
6 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.717242
7 Swedish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.718463
8 Irish + North_German + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.726860
9 Danish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.727204
10 Danish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.735286
11 North_German + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.738239
12 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.744429
13 Danish + Danish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.755604
14 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.760739
15 Danish + Danish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.763251
16 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.771631
17 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.772011
18 Danish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.800724
19 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.815938
20 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.816245

Gravetto-Danubian
09-13-2016, 10:24 PM
Really? I confess that I had not heard this. So they were all L21, but the L21 that saturates Ireland today is from other L21 men who arrived in the Bell Beaker period, but did not get buried in some convenient place to be found and DNA tested just yet? Frankly this is just par for the course with aDNA.

Yep
Or new arrivals from the continent, who spoke Celtic ?

Has anyone calculated the TMRCA of Irish L21?

Jean M
09-13-2016, 10:53 PM
Or new arrivals from the continent, who spoke Celtic ?

We can expect layers and layers of incomers speaking Celtic, mainly from Britain, rather than direct from the Continent. There was to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland and its bigger neighbour in the Bronze Age. Then Ireland was somewhat cut off for a while in the Iron Age, as it lost its prime position as a supplier of bronze and gold (and probably had some rotten weather as well.) Things perked up enough c. 300 BC to attract people from northern Britain with La Tene material. Then groups of Britons apparently fled the Romans to Ireland. Then Britons probably fled the Anglo-Saxons to Ireland. But it wasn't all one-way traffic. Very likely people fled from Ireland to Britain in that nasty Iron Age economic downturn. Then Irish raided Roman Britain, and some managed to settle in parts of western Britain. As for modern times, there are millions of people in Britain with at least one Irish grandparent (who are currently queuing up for Irish passports.)

So it's liable to be a question of trying to sort out by subclades who got to Ireland when. Won't be easy. I have a bet on M222 with La Tene. But who knows? ;)

Jessie
09-14-2016, 03:47 AM
We know that Rathlin Islanders did not leave any Y descendants and Rathlin's K13 is a strange result for a Celt.
K13, M232268, Rathlin 1,Ireland BA.
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.4
6 Amerindian 2.2
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06
9 Siberian 0.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Brahmin_UP @ 4.14
2 94.3% Norwegian + 5.7% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.15
3 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Gujarati @ 4.18
4 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Kshatriya @ 4.18
5 95% Norwegian + 5% Sindhi @ 4.24
6 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Kanjar @ 4.25
7 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kurumba @ 4.26
8 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% Kalash @ 4.26
9 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Velamas @ 4.27
10 96% Norwegian + 4% Piramalai @ 4.27
11 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Dharkar @ 4.29
12 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% North_Kannadi @ 4.29
13 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% Dusadh @ 4.29
14 95.7% Norwegian + 4.3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 4.29
15 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kol @ 4.3
16 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Burusho @ 4.31
17 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Pathan @ 4.31
18 95.4% Norwegian + 4.6% Bangladeshi @ 4.33
19 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Sakilli @ 4.33
20 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Chamar @ 4.34

You'd be surprised. It's not that much different from modern Irish results. A little more north shifted but not by much. It's difficult to know what a "Celt" result would look like anyway. I'm not sure whether something like Celtic can be measured genetically.

My K13 isn't that different considering the timeframe.

Population
North_Atlantic 52.04
Baltic 25.27
West_Med 9.81
West_Asian 7.25
East_Med 1.77
Red_Sea 1.50
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.75
Amerindian 1.38
Oceanian 0.24
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Irish + 42.9% Norwegian @ 2.28
2 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% West_Scottish @ 2.33
3 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Swedish @ 2.54
4 51.6% North_Dutch + 48.4% Irish @ 2.56
5 70.2% West_Scottish + 29.8% Swedish @ 2.58
6 61.6% North_Dutch + 38.4% West_Scottish @ 2.6
7 88.2% Irish + 11.8% North_Swedish @ 2.61
8 94.4% Irish + 5.6% Finnish @ 2.67
9 94.5% Irish + 5.5% La_Brana-1 @ 2.68
10 93.4% Irish + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.72
11 95.3% Irish + 4.7% East_Finnish @ 2.72
12 76.2% Irish + 23.8% North_German @ 2.72
13 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% North_German @ 2.74
14 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Chuvash @ 2.74
15 84.2% West_Scottish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.75
16 65.5% Irish + 34.5% Danish @ 2.75
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% Finnish @ 2.77
18 97.1% Irish + 2.9% Mari @ 2.78
19 95.4% Irish + 4.6% Estonian @ 2.79
20 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Erzya @ 2.8

mouse
09-14-2016, 06:00 AM
The K15 is better for some Irish people. Here are Rathlin's K15 results. Some Irish academics say that the majority of Irish people are not descended from the Celts.



Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Kit M232268

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 7.71
2 Danish 8.22
3 Irish 8.29
4 West_Scottish 8.61
5 North_Dutch 9.59
6 Southeast_English 9.62
7 Orcadian 10.88
8 Southwest_English 11.43
9 Norwegian 11.78
10 Swedish 12.03
11 South_Dutch 12.1
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_Norwegian 12.98
14 Southwest_Finnish 14
15 East_German 14.55
16 West_German 14.87
17 Austrian 16.65
18 French 17.07
19 Finnish 17.76
20 Hungarian 18.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

Jessie
09-14-2016, 07:13 AM
The K15 is better for some Irish people. Here are Rathlin's K15 results. Some Irish academics say that the majority of Irish people are not descended from the Celts.



Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Kit M232268

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 7.71
2 Danish 8.22
3 Irish 8.29
4 West_Scottish 8.61
5 North_Dutch 9.59
6 Southeast_English 9.62
7 Orcadian 10.88
8 Southwest_English 11.43
9 Norwegian 11.78
10 Swedish 12.03
11 South_Dutch 12.1
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_Norwegian 12.98
14 Southwest_Finnish 14
15 East_German 14.55
16 West_German 14.87
17 Austrian 16.65
18 French 17.07
19 Finnish 17.76
20 Hungarian 18.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

A lot of that was due to the idea that Celtic came to places like Ireland from trade and not population movement. I think genetics is proving a lot of that thinking wrong. I think a lot of things will be revised with the new genetics information coming out.

The K15 of Rathlin is not too different than mine either. Not sure if you could say that there doesn't appear to have been too much change of population judging by these oracles.

Mine

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.1
9 Siberian 0.07
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Swedish @ 2.74
2 96.9% West_Scottish + 3.1% Chechen @ 2.76
3 97.1% West_Scottish + 2.9% North_Ossetian @ 2.77
4 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Tabassaran @ 2.78
5 89.9% Irish + 10.1% North_Swedish @ 2.79
6 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Chechen @ 2.8
7 67.9% Irish + 32.1% North_Dutch @ 2.81
8 74.3% West_Scottish + 25.7% North_German @ 2.82
9 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Lezgin @ 2.82
10 97.2% West_Scottish + 2.8% Kabardin @ 2.82
11 86.3% Irish + 13.7% West_Norwegian @ 2.83
12 97.3% West_Scottish + 2.7% Adygei @ 2.83
13 97% West_Scottish + 3% Tabassaran @ 2.83
14 98% Irish + 2% North_Ossetian @ 2.84
15 97.1% West_Scottish + 2.9% Lezgin @ 2.84
16 86.3% Irish + 13.7% Norwegian @ 2.84
17 97.3% West_Scottish + 2.7% Balkar @ 2.85
18 94.8% Irish + 5.2% Finnish @ 2.85
19 96% Irish + 4% Estonian @ 2.86
20 98% Irish + 2% Kabardin @ 2.86

moesan
09-14-2016, 07:36 AM
I am stating the first celts appear in Central germany from ethnic Gallic people, they ( celts )then moved and absorbed the gallics in southern germany before going into the alps

I think I know you by Eupedia?
This Gallic/Celtic division is still to be proved... Surely some subdivision existed among globally celtic speaking pops but the choice of these known namings is without basis, and there were surely more than two subdivisions.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 08:39 AM
Some Irish academics say that the majority of Irish people are not descended from the Celts.

Yes indeed. For decades large numbers of archaeologists in Europe were seduced by anti-migrationism. They did not want to believe that people moved around in prehistory, except for the initial movement of Homo sapiens across the globe, and the movement of people to re-populate regions that had been covered in ice or otherwise uninhabitable at the height of the last Ice Age. (Those movements could scarcely be denied.)

But now attitudes are changing. In the first decade of this new millennium, some brave archaeologists were already starting to rebel against what had become a rigid orthodoxy. Migration had become a taboo topic, along with violence in prehistory. It wasn't logical. Evidence was mounting up that would not fit into that framework. Over the last few years ancient DNA discoveries right across Eurasia have supported the rebels. It is now crystal clear that there were many migrations in prehistory, some of which were of major importance in forming the present European gene pool.

These changes in the view of the past may be disturbing to some. I realise that all too well. But anyone trying to fight the tide of evidence now washing over us will just get drowned in it.

Dubhthach
09-14-2016, 09:13 AM
The people who lived in Ireland before the Bell Beaker people were:


Mesolithic. The first arrivals were a few hunter-gatherers. We don't know what language they spoke, but it would have vanished when the island was settled by farmers.
Neolithic. The first farmers arrived c. 3800 BC. They would have brought their own language, derived from a language or languages which were brought to Europe from Anatolia with farming from about 7000 BC. These languages have left few traces. But we know that they did not belong to the Indo-European family, which was born too late to have travelled with the early farmers.


So the earliest migration which could have brought an Indo-European language to Ireland was Bell Beaker. It seems from certain place-names that the first Indo-European language in Ireland was Old European, a bit closer to the original Indo-European language (PIE) than to Celtic, but Celtic must have arrived fairly soon thereafter, because Ireland is remarkable for the lack of non-Celtic linguistic traces in place-names etc.

There is of course the issue of the Partraige, which potentially points to a non-Celtic language (though perhaps a form of Proto-IE) surviving in Ireland into the 7th century (after which stage Old Irish had borrowed /p/ from Latin). Of course given their geographic location is somewhat isolated, it's quite possible it's case of linguistic persistance in remote area. For same reason the Irish language surived longer in this area than other parts (though it's basically on it's last legs in general area of "South Mayo" eg. Partry)

Dubhthach
09-14-2016, 09:18 AM
The K15 is better for some Irish people. Here are Rathlin's K15 results. Some Irish academics say that the majority of Irish people are not descended from the Celts.



Of course some of same academics claimed that Irish population was basically unchanged since the Mesolithic with only small levels of Neolithic input and that argiculture was "learnt" -- aDNA has a tendency to blow through such assumptions.

What we really need is aDNA from Late Bronze age/Iron age western Europe, particularly France, Switzerland, Northern Italy, Southern Germany. This would allow us to to at least conceptualise the genetic variation across region in late pre-history.

I could be wrong but most recent aDNA we have from France for example is only Neolithic.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 10:09 AM
There is of course the issue of the Partraige, which potentially points to a non-Celtic language (though perhaps a form of Proto-IE) surviving in Ireland into the 7th century

I'm not convinced by this, given P-Celtic just across the water in Britain. We have no early evidence for the name. The -raighe names seem early medieval.

mouse
09-14-2016, 10:25 AM
Of course some of same academics claimed that Irish population was basically unchanged since the Mesolithic with only small levels of Neolithic input and that argiculture was "learnt" -- aDNA has a tendency to blow through such assumptions.

What we really need is aDNA from Late Bronze age/Iron age western Europe, particularly France, Switzerland, Northern Italy, Southern Germany. This would allow us to to at least conceptualise the genetic variation across region in late pre-history.

I could be wrong but most recent aDNA we have from France for example is only Neolithic.

Most Irish people have 50-60% WHG so the Mesolithic autosomal dna was not wiped out. Do you think that there was a complete wipe out of the population by Celtic speaking peoples 3,000 years ago? How many immigrants would it take to change the gene pool of any region. How will the recent migration of 500,000 people to Ireland effect the Irish gene pool in the coming decades? Will Polish be the language of the future Irish?

mouse
09-14-2016, 10:29 AM
Really? I confess that I had not heard this. So they were all L21, but the L21 that saturates Ireland today is from other L21 men who arrived in the Bell Beaker period, but did not get buried in some convenient place to be found and DNA tested just yet? Frankly this is just par for the course with aDNA.

All I am saying is that no Irishman tested so far is a direct descendant of the DF21 Rathlin Islanders. They are from a line that died out. Their autosomal dna lives on in the modern Irish which they probably got from the the Irish who lived at that time in that region.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 10:36 AM
Most Irish people have 50-60% WHG so the Mesolithic autosomal dna was not wiped out.

The Mesolithic DNA in Europe as a whole was not completely wiped out, because:


the EEF absorbed some WHG.
the Yamnaya were of forager ancestry themselves, then they and their descendants mixed with EEF as they travelled.


So the EEF entering Ireland already had some WHG ancestry. The Bell Beaker people entering Ireland already had some WHG ancestry. The number of hunter-gatherers in Ireland before the arrival of the farmers was minute. Ireland lacked big game, so it was not the most attractive place for foragers. I wouldn't rule out some fishermen in Ireland surviving into the Neolithic and mixing with the EEF, but their genetic impact on a farming population, which can support many more people to the square mile, would be very, very small.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 10:42 AM
All I am saying is that no Irishman tested so far is a direct descendant of the DF21 Rathlin Islanders. They are from a line that died out. Their autosomal dna lives on in the modern Irish which they probably got from the the Irish who lived at that time in that region.

The autosomal DNA of the Rathlin Island men is similar to that of the Bell Beaker people on the Continent. It has the Yamnaya component. The EEF lady in Nothern Ireland did not have that component. That is not surprising, as the EEF people all over Europe did not have the Yamnaya component. That Yamnaya component spread across Europe in the Copper Age with Yamnaya and its descendant cultures, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 10:49 AM
How many immigrants would it take to change the gene pool of any region.

That depends on two things:


How many people already lived in that region
How well the existing population could compete with the incomers, economically and/or militarily, or tolerate any diseases that the incomers brought.


The EEF farmers were initially successful in Ireland and their population swelled. But later it crashed. We don't know for sure why, but this happened before the Bell Beaker people arrived. Arable farming had ceased in Ireland. Bog built up over the Neolithic fields. Perhaps it was a climate problem. The incoming Bell Beakers brought a new type of farming/pastoralism and a number of technological advances, like metallurgy. The discovery of copper and gold in Ireland brought a big boost to the economy. The Bell Beaker descendants thrived in Ireland. The population shot up after they came.

Dubhthach
09-14-2016, 11:17 AM
I'm not convinced by this, given P-Celtic just across the water in Britain. We have no early evidence for the name. The -raighe names seem early medieval.

Well all of the -raighe names are very early, by default it appears to be a "tribal" name construct. In case of Partraighe, we know they come under dominion of expanding Connachta during the 6th/7th century. Irish only gained /p/ phoneme in the late 6th-7th century, thence earliest loanwords from Latin that have a /p/ undergo transcription to /k/ (c) eg. Pascha = Cásc (Easter) etc.

Of course their geographic position in western Connacht is outside of main zone for La Téne style finds in Ireland

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg
11619

Byrne in "Irish Kings and High-Kings" proposed a connection to Illyrians for source of name potentially. Either way the word Partán (Crab) is unknown in a Brythonic context. (Partraige is glossed as been "people of the Crab")

Dubhthach
09-14-2016, 11:28 AM
Most Irish people have 50-60% WHG so the Mesolithic autosomal dna was not wiped out. Do you think that there was a complete wipe out of the population by Celtic speaking peoples 3,000 years ago? How many immigrants would it take to change the gene pool of any region. How will the recent migration of 500,000 people to Ireland effect the Irish gene pool in the coming decades? Will Polish be the language of the future Irish?

All Europeans have Mesolithic admixture. If you went back 2,000 years ago and sample Vercingetorix he would have a good chunk (if not a pluarity) of his ancestry from WHG admixture (likewise for Caesar). The question arises how much of the WHG found in modern Irish has been in Ireland since the Mesolithic and how much of it came in subsequently.

We know for example that EEF component in Rathlin men was more connected to Neolithic EEF remains from central Europe as oppose to the Ballynahatty Neolithic sample.

Leaving that aside it's evident that Ireland underwent a number of major population dips as can be evident by climatic changes and decline in crop pollen in bog core sample.

Does Polish have social privilege/capita in modern Ireland? I mean other than having a couple of Polish colleagues I've let to see debates in the Dáil or any political forum undergo shift from English to Polish. Needless to say the biggest minority group here in Ireland today are the British and not the Poles.

kevinduffy
09-14-2016, 12:24 PM
Does Polish have social privilege/capita in modern Ireland? I mean other than having a couple of Polish colleagues I've let to see debates in the Dáil or any political forum undergo shift from English to Polish. Needless to say the biggest minority group here in Ireland today are the British and not the Poles.

Though the Poles have a much less violent history in Ireland than the British. ;)

kevinduffy
09-14-2016, 12:34 PM
You'd be surprised. It's not that much different from modern Irish results. A little more north shifted but not by much. It's difficult to know what a "Celt" result would look like anyway. I'm not sure whether something like Celtic can be measured genetically.

My K13 isn't that different considering the timeframe.

Population
North_Atlantic 52.04
Baltic 25.27
West_Med 9.81
West_Asian 7.25
East_Med 1.77
Red_Sea 1.50
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.75
Amerindian 1.38
Oceanian 0.24
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Irish + 42.9% Norwegian @ 2.28
2 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% West_Scottish @ 2.33
3 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Swedish @ 2.54
4 51.6% North_Dutch + 48.4% Irish @ 2.56
5 70.2% West_Scottish + 29.8% Swedish @ 2.58
6 61.6% North_Dutch + 38.4% West_Scottish @ 2.6
7 88.2% Irish + 11.8% North_Swedish @ 2.61
8 94.4% Irish + 5.6% Finnish @ 2.67
9 94.5% Irish + 5.5% La_Brana-1 @ 2.68
10 93.4% Irish + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.72
11 95.3% Irish + 4.7% East_Finnish @ 2.72
12 76.2% Irish + 23.8% North_German @ 2.72
13 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% North_German @ 2.74
14 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Chuvash @ 2.74
15 84.2% West_Scottish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.75
16 65.5% Irish + 34.5% Danish @ 2.75
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% Finnish @ 2.77
18 97.1% Irish + 2.9% Mari @ 2.78
19 95.4% Irish + 4.6% Estonian @ 2.79
20 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Erzya @ 2.8

My K13 results are similar as well:

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit T656173

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 50.06
2 Baltic 25.58
3 West_Med 12.24
4 West_Asian 6.16
5 East_Med 3.27
6 South_Asian 1.18
7 Siberian 0.87
8 Oceanian 0.31
9 Amerindian 0.23
10 Red_Sea 0.05
11 Northeast_African 0.03
12 Sub-Saharan 0.01

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 1.87
2 Orcadian 2.13
3 Danish 2.18
4 Irish 3.17
5 Southeast_English 3.52
6 West_Scottish 3.8
7 North_German 3.83
8 Norwegian 3.99
9 Southwest_English 4.69
10 Swedish 6.14
11 South_Dutch 7.46
12 West_German 8.43
13 North_Swedish 12.24
14 Austrian 12.83
15 East_German 13
16 French 13.45
17 Hungarian 17.39
18 Southwest_Finnish 20.22
19 Spanish_Cataluna 20.73
20 Southwest_French 21.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.1% Orcadian + 33.9% North_German @ 0.95
2 94% Danish + 6% French_Basque @ 1.25
3 50.9% Orcadian + 49.1% Danish @ 1.28
4 72% Danish + 28% Southwest_English @ 1.3
5 94.5% Orcadian + 5.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.31
6 93.1% Orcadian + 6.9% South_Polish @ 1.33
7 86.3% West_Scottish + 13.7% South_Polish @ 1.35
8 94.5% North_Dutch + 5.5% Southwest_French @ 1.37
9 94.6% Orcadian + 5.4% Southwest_Russian @ 1.37
10 91.4% Orcadian + 8.6% Hungarian @ 1.37
11 88.7% Orcadian + 11.3% Austrian @ 1.38
12 56.3% North_Dutch + 43.7% Orcadian @ 1.38
13 95.7% North_Dutch + 4.3% French_Basque @ 1.39
14 93.4% Orcadian + 6.6% Croatian @ 1.4
15 78.5% West_Scottish + 21.5% East_German @ 1.4
16 88.9% Orcadian + 11.1% East_German @ 1.4
17 83.1% West_Scottish + 16.9% Hungarian @ 1.4
18 95.4% North_Dutch + 4.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.4
19 72.5% North_Dutch + 27.5% Southeast_English @ 1.41
20 97.6% North_Dutch + 2.4% Sardinian @ 1.41

mouse
09-14-2016, 02:09 PM
That depends on two things:


How many people already lived in that region
How well the existing population could compete with the incomers, economically and/or militarily, or tolerate any diseases that the incomers brought.


The EEF farmers were initially successful in Ireland and their population swelled. But later it crashed. We don't know for sure why, but this happened before the Bell Beaker people arrived. Arable farming had ceased in Ireland. Bog built up over the Neolithic fields. Perhaps it was a climate problem. The incoming Bell Beakers brought a new type of farming/pastoralism and a number of technological advances, like metallurgy. The discovery of copper and gold in Ireland brought a big boost to the economy. The Bell Beaker descendants thrived in Ireland. The population shot up after they came.

The passage tombs were built 500 years before the first metal workers came from Iberia. The population at the time of the passage tombs must have been large enough. Crop failure in the west of Ireland during the Neolithic does not mean that the population crashed. It is easy to grow grass in Ireland and the farmers could have reared cattle for beef, which is what has been suggested by some experts.

kevinduffy
09-14-2016, 02:45 PM
The passage tombs were built 500 years before the first metal workers came from Iberia. The population at the time of the passage tombs must have been large enough. Crop failure in the west of Ireland during the Neolithic does not mean that the population crashed. It is easy to grow grass in Ireland and the farmers could have reared cattle for beef, which is what has been suggested by some experts.

People would have needed some form of carbohydrate as well for survival. You can't just live on beef.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 03:46 PM
The passage tombs were built 500 years before the first metal workers came from Iberia. The population at the time of the passage tombs must have been large enough. Crop failure in the west of Ireland during the Neolithic does not mean that the population crashed. It is easy to grow grass in Ireland and the farmers could have reared cattle for beef, which is what has been suggested by some experts.

The farmers were rearing cattle for both beef and milk from their earliest arrival in Ireland. See Lucy J. E. Cramp et al., Immediate replacement of fishing with dairying by the earliest farmers of the northeast Atlantic archipelagos, Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 281: 20132372.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1780/20132372

So they were never completely dependent on arable crops. However the population crash is deduced from the fall in evidence of human activity, not just just crops. See Nicki J. Whitehouse, Rick J. Schulting, Meriel McClatchie, Phil Barratt, T. Rowan McLaughlin, Amy Bogaard, Sue Colledge, Rob Marchant, Joanne Gaffrey, M. Jane Bunting, Neolithic agriculture on the European western frontier: the boom and bust of early farming in Ireland, Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 51, November 2014, Pages 181–205.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313002987


While the nature and timing of the very beginning of the Neolithic in Ireland is still debated, our results – based on new Bayesian chronologies of plant macro-remains – are consistent with a rapid and abrupt transition to agriculture from c. 3750 cal BC, though there are hints of earlier Neolithic presence at a number of sites. We have emphatically confirmed the start of extensive Neolithic settlement in Ireland with the existence of a distinct ‘house horizon’, dating to 3720–3620 cal BC, lasting for up to a century. Cereals were being consumed at many sites during this period, with emmer wheat dominant, but also barley (naked and hulled), as well as occasional evidence for einkorn wheat, naked wheat and flax.... After this early boom, there are changes in the nature of settlement records; aside from passage tombs, the evidence for activity between 3400 and 3100 cal BC is limited. From 3400 cal BC, we see a decrease in the frequency of cereal evidence and an increase in some wild resources (e.g. fruits, but not nuts, in the records), alongside evidence for re-afforestation in pollen diagrams (3500–3000 cal BC). Changes occur at a time of worsening climatic conditions....


It seems clear enough that the early farmers did not completely disappear from Ireland before the Bell Beaker people arrived. But their genetic traces in the modern Irish are almost undetectable. The most common Y-DNA haplogroup of the early farmers across Europe was G2a, rare in Ireland today, indeed not common anywhere in Europe outside Sardinia. The autosomal signal of EEF is also highest today in Sardinia.

Eochaidh
09-14-2016, 05:36 PM
Things perked up enough c. 300 BC to attract people from northern Britain with La Tene material.
The figure-of-eight structures at Emhain Macha and Dún Ailinne date from this time and are unique in Europe. (Mallory). Emhain was the capital of the Uladh (Ulster) and Dún Ailinne the capital of the Laighin.


I have a bet on M222 with La Tene. But who knows? ;)
"There were three principal kinships in Ireland: the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin." -- From an Eighth Century legal tract.

The Northern O'Neill are part of the Féini (Connachta) and M222, the late John McLaughlin who ran the M222 list identified most of the Ulaih names in the Trinity study as M222 and the map of the M222 distribution from the Trinity study has a hotspot just over the site of Dún Ailinne of the Laighin.

mouse
09-14-2016, 05:46 PM
The farmers were rearing cattle for both beef and milk from their earliest arrival in Ireland. See Lucy J. E. Cramp et al., Immediate replacement of fishing with dairying by the earliest farmers of the northeast Atlantic archipelagos, Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 281: 20132372.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1780/20132372

So they were never completely dependent on arable crops. However the population crash is deduced from the fall in evidence of human activity, not just just crops. See Nicki J. Whitehouse, Rick J. Schulting, Meriel McClatchie, Phil Barratt, T. Rowan McLaughlin, Amy Bogaard, Sue Colledge, Rob Marchant, Joanne Gaffrey, M. Jane Bunting, Neolithic agriculture on the European western frontier: the boom and bust of early farming in Ireland, Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 51, November 2014, Pages 181–205.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313002987



It seems clear enough that the early farmers did not completely disappear from Ireland before the Bell Beaker people arrived. But their genetic traces in the modern Irish are almost undetectable. The most common Y-DNA haplogroup of the early farmers across Europe was G2a, rare in Ireland today, indeed not common anywhere in Europe outside Sardinia. The autosomal signal of EEF is also highest today in Sardinia.

Some Irish people to day have 15-20% ENF. You can see that she had 59% WHG-UHG.


M427312 Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions, Neolithic Irish woman 3,200 BC.
Population
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 59.18%
East_Eurasian 2.42%
West_African 0.69%
East_African 2.54%
ENF 35.17%

vettor
09-14-2016, 06:38 PM
You are getting confused by the terminology again. The Galli (Gauls) spoke a Celtic language. There were other Celtic languages. The Galli (Gauls) are therefore just one branch of the Celts. The Galli were indeed very mobile in the period when there were literate Greeks and Romans to write down these things. So we have a written record of the Gauls ejecting the Etruscans from the Po Valley c. 400 BC, and the Gauls entering Asia Minor, where the Greeks called them Galatoi (Galatae in Latin) c. 280 BC and so on.

But this is not the start of the story of the Celts. The story of the Celts begins in pre-history. That is a long time before the Classical Greeks and Romans even existed. That early period, the very start of the story, is what this thread is about.

Your period of 400BC is too late, I am speaking prior Halstatt culture. At that time Celtic and its sister tongue Gaulish where 2 of the languages spoken by the Gallic people. Over time Celtic absorbed Gaulish in the areas which where Gaulish in tongue
We also have the P and Q divide of the celtic language to consider , let alone the celts in the balkans also

The relationship between Gaulish and the other Celtic languages is also subject to debate. Most scholars today agree that Celtiberian was the first to branch off from the remaining Celtic languages.[11] Gaulish, situated in the centre of the Celtic language area, shares with the neighbouring Brythonic of Great Britain the change of the Indo-European labio-velar consonant /kʷ/ > /p/, whereas both Celtiberian in the south and Goidelic in Ireland retain /kʷ/. Taking this as the primary genealogical isogloss, some scholars see the Celtic languages to be divided into a "q-Celtic" and a "p-Celtic" group, in which the p-Celtic languages Gaulish and Brythonic form a common "Gallo-Brittonic" branch.

Clearly Gaulish exists but not in Celtic Germany nor in Halstatt culture


http://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/114125/N_GraecoLatina_13-2008-1_4.pdf

CillKenny
09-14-2016, 08:04 PM
The figure-of-eight structures at Emhain Macha and Dún Ailinne date from this time and are unique in Europe. (Mallory). Emhain was the capital of the Uladh (Ulster) and Dún Ailinne the capital of the Laighin.


"There were three principal kinships in Ireland: the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin." -- From an Eighth Century legal tract.

The Northern O'Neill are part of the Féini (Connachta) and M222, the late John McLaughlin who ran the M222 list identified most of the Ulaih names in the Trinity study as M222 and the map of the M222 distribution from the Trinity study has a hotspot just over the site of Dún Ailinne of the Laighin.

I thought the Feni distinguished themselves from the Ulaid and Laigin who they saw as two elements of the three free peoples of Ireland but separate from themselves. From what I have read scholars think that the Ulaid and Laigin predated the arrival of the Feni and were pushed back into smaller areas in the historical period. There may well have been a link between the people at Navan and Dun Ailinne given the configuration of the structures but I don't have the dating on these to hand. They certainly had reasonably friendly links even into the historical period as both were opponents of the dominant Ui Neill.

Jean M
09-14-2016, 08:23 PM
At that time Celtic and its sister tongue Gaulish where 2 of the languages spoken by the Gallic people.

No Vettor. Celtic is the language family. Gaulish is one of its branches. You actually quoted something in your post that makes this clear:


The relationship between Gaulish and the other Celtic languages is also subject to debate.

Tree of the Celtic languages:

11628

These are the languages of the Celtic family:


Gaulish (dead)
Lepontic (dead)
Celtiberian (dead)
Welsh
Breton
Irish
Scottish Gaelic
Manx Gaelic

mouse
09-14-2016, 08:24 PM
http://heritagecouncil.ie/unpublished_excavations/section10.html

Jean M
09-14-2016, 08:46 PM
the map of the M222 distribution from the Trinity study has a hotspot just over the site of Dún Ailinne of the Laighin.

You mean Moore 2006? -

11629

We have a more recent map over here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1928-M222-(L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF49-gt-DF23-gt-Z2961-gt-M222)-downstream-SNP-tracking&p=83889&viewfull=1#post83889

I'm just going by the fact that in Ireland M222 seems lowest today in Munster, which had little La Tene influence. I doubt if the pattern we see today, after so much moving around, will helpfully point to an ancient monument. I hope we get some clues from ancient DNA one day.

Eochaidh
09-14-2016, 09:04 PM
You mean Moore 2006? -

11629

I'm just going by the fact that M222 seems lowest today in Munster, which had little La Tene influence.
There is a better one:
11630
The green circle just west of Dublin is over Knockaulin. It was called Dún Ailinne and was the 'Royal Site' of the Laighin before the Southern O'Neill drove them out of Meath/Kildare into what is now Leinster. Their royal line is lost, but that hotspot is there on the map.

Eochaidh
09-14-2016, 09:07 PM
Knockaulin can be seen here:
11631

Eochaidh
09-14-2016, 09:50 PM
You mean Moore 2006? -

11629

We have a more recent map over here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1928-M222-(L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF49-gt-DF23-gt-Z2961-gt-M222)-downstream-SNP-tracking&p=83889&viewfull=1#post83889

I'm just going by the fact that in Ireland M222 seems lowest today in Munster, which had little La Tene influence. I doubt if the pattern we see today, after so much moving around, will helpfully point to an ancient monument. I hope we get some clues from ancient DNA one day.
That is my map from my Chromo2 test and it groups the results only by modern province. It does not have the gradients that the other two do.

If modern DNA does not indicate ancient location, why does everyone assume that M222 is primarily a Donegal thing? There was a large influx of people from the east into Donegal during Penal times, especially where some of my people came from in Tulloghabegley on the far northwest. People even remember which families moved there.

Heber
09-14-2016, 09:53 PM
Knockaulin can be seen here:
11631

It is interesting that the Irish DNA Atlas results appear to reflect the North - South divide of the Eiscir Riada and the nine traditional clan boundaries.

These may have been formed long before Le Tene, which could be a cultural transmission. Ireland's ancient DNA shows continuity since 2000 BC. Cassidy ét al.
Here is another interpretation.

11632

11633

11634

11635

R1b-DF21 was in Ireland at least 2000 BC and his older brother R1b-DF49 was probably there as well.

Distribution of Bell Beaker sites in Ireland.

11636

Source AEMA Database. See CW 2016 P.146.

vettor
09-15-2016, 05:53 AM
No Vettor. Celtic is the language family. Gaulish is one of its branches. You actually quoted something in your post that makes this clear:



Tree of the Celtic languages:

11628

These are the languages of the Celtic family:


Gaulish (dead)
Lepontic (dead)
Celtiberian (dead)
Welsh
Breton
Irish
Scottish Gaelic
Manx Gaelic


I think we have the same ideas except you like to put all these languages into one group called Celtic and I disagree with this, as I think Anatolian/balkan celtic is different to british celtic and also different to iberian celtic.

I also disagree in lepontic being "Halstatt" celtic but being Gaulish celtic

mouse
09-15-2016, 08:48 AM
It is interesting that the Irish DNA Atlas results appear to reflect the North - South divide of the Eiscir Riada and the nine traditional clan boundaries.

These may have been formed long before Le Tene, which could be a cultural transmission. Ireland's ancient DNA shows continuity since 2000 BC. Cassidy ét al.
Here is another interpretation.

11632

11633

11634

11635

R1b-DF21 was in Ireland at least 2000 BC and his older brother R1b-DF49 was probably there as well.

Distribution of Bell Beaker sites in Ireland.

11636

Source AEMA Database. See CW 2016 P.146.

It seems to me that people are happt to concede that the ancestors of the Celts were Russian immigrants. The autosomal dna that we got from them was ANE which most modern Irish have at around 16%. So the Irish population is around 60% western HG, 14% ENF and 10% CHG and 16 % ANE which reflects some of the migrations that took place over the last 10,000 years. The reality is that the 84% of Irish autosomal dna is not Celtic. It is the culture that we all identify with today and dna results are not going to change us in any way.

Dubhthach
09-15-2016, 10:35 AM
I think we have the same ideas except you like to put all these languages into one group called Celtic and I disagree with this, as I think Anatolian/balkan celtic is different to british celtic and also different to iberian celtic.

I also disagree in lepontic being "Halstatt" celtic but being Gaulish celtic

They are in one group as they all share features that are unique to the "Celtic" branch of IE and not found in other IE branches, the prime example been deletion of Proto-IE /p/

For more detail see:
"Pruners and trainers of the Celtic family tree: The rise and development of Celtic in the light of Language contact" by Peter Scrhijver (version on academia.edu is ups

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Pruners_and_trainers_of_the_Celtic_famil.pdf

Dubhthach
09-15-2016, 10:41 AM
It seems to me that people are happt to concede that the ancestors of the Celts were Russian immigrants. The autosomal dna that we got from them was ANE which most modern Irish have at around 16%. So the Irish population is around 60% western HG, 14% ENF and 10% CHG and 16 % ANE which reflects some of the migrations that took place over the last 10,000 years. The reality is that the 84% of Irish autosomal dna is not Celtic. It is the culture that we all identify with today and dna results are not going to change us in any way.

Proto-Indo-Europeans were really Russians? jaysuz.

Proto-Celtic would have developed among people who were a mix of WHG, EEF, ANE already. What exactly is this "Celtic autosomnal DNA" that you are talking about? I mean we are let to see any aDNA from continental Celtic archaelogical context. I imagine when we do it will be quite similiar to what we are seeing from Iron age Britain.

What percentage of WHG/EEF in modern Irish is a result of influx of Proto-Celtic speakers? We already can see that on one Neolithic result, that there is a discontinuity between EEF in neolithic Irish and modern Irish.

Dubhthach
09-15-2016, 10:47 AM
I thought the Feni distinguished themselves from the Ulaid and Laigin who they saw as two elements of the three free peoples of Ireland but separate from themselves. From what I have read scholars think that the Ulaid and Laigin predated the arrival of the Feni and were pushed back into smaller areas in the historical period. There may well have been a link between the people at Navan and Dun Ailinne given the configuration of the structures but I don't have the dating on these to hand. They certainly had reasonably friendly links even into the historical period as both were opponents of the dominant Ui Neill.

The Féni represent both the Dál Cuinn (Connachta and Uí Néill) and the Eoghanachta of Munster. TM Charles-Edwards proposes that what we are seeing is part of a military alliance, which sees overthrow of the "old order" in both Leath Cuinn (half of Conn) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mugh Nuadhat aka. Eoghan Mór)

In which case the Féni represent the political situation in Ireland in the 6th century, with powerblocks North/South of the Esker boundary. With the "outsiders" at this stage consisting of the Ulaidh and the Laighin. Subsequently as the pseudo-historical narrative is "finesed" we end up with everyone been written into a common "political genealogy". Originally the whole "Son's of Míl" only applied to the Féni (eg. Dál Cuinn from Érimón, Eoghanachta from Eber Finn aka Heber)

Everyone basically got written in eventually producing the hybrid concept of "Gael" which as a word is borrowed from Old-Welsh and thus dates probably to after 6th century AD (christian period)

Heber
09-15-2016, 01:22 PM
It seems to me that people are happt to concede that the ancestors of the Celts were Russian immigrants. The autosomal dna that we got from them was ANE which most modern Irish have at around 16%. So the Irish population is around 60% western HG, 14% ENF and 10% CHG and 16 % ANE which reflects some of the migrations that took place over the last 10,000 years. The reality is that the 84% of Irish autosomal dna is not Celtic. It is the culture that we all identify with today and dna results are not going to change us in any way.

I think everyone agrees that Indo-European emerged in or near the Steppes. This paper was finalised before the forth component linked to the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer (CHG) was published, so I would expect to find additional Caucusus cultures such as Maikop, Kura Araxes, Azov, Georgia contributing to this component.
The Beaker culture is the most probable archeological vector of this Steppe and Caucusus ancestry, however we don't yet have samples from Western Bell Beaker (a big Bell Beaker paper is expected soon), so I would expect Western Beaker and the Atlantic Bronze Age to make a contribution.
Things are clearer with Y DNA with the highest frequency of R1b-P312 found in Atlantic Europe and appears to be identified with Bell Beaker and Celtic (Atlantic and Alpine).

"Thus, it is clear that the great wave of genomic change which swept from above the Black Sea into Europe around 3000 BC washed all of the way to the northeast shore of its most westerly island. At present, the Beaker culture is the most probable archaeological vector of this Steppe ancestry into Ireland from the continent, although further sampling from Beaker burials across western Europe will be necessary to confirm this. The extent of this change, which we estimate at roughly a third of Irish Bronze Age ancestry, opens the possibility of accompanying language change, perhaps the first introduction of Indo-European language ancestral to Irish."

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/fourth-strand-of-european-ancestry-originated-with-hunter-gatherers-isolated-by-ice-age

mouse
09-15-2016, 02:50 PM
I think everyone agrees that Indo-European emerged in or near the Steppes. This paper was finalised before the forth component linked to the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer (CHG) was published, so I would expect to find additional Caucusus cultures such as Maikop, Kura Araxes, Azov, Georgia contributing to this component.
The Beaker culture is the most probable archeological vector of this Steppe and Caucusus ancestry, however we don't yet have samples from Western Bell Beaker (a big Bell Beaker paper is expected soon), so I would expect Western Beaker and the Atlantic Bronze Age to make a contribution.
Things are clearer with Y DNA with the highest frequency of R1b-P312 found in Atlantic Europe and appears to be identified with Bell Beaker and Celtic (Atlantic and Alpine).

"Thus, it is clear that the great wave of genomic change which swept from above the Black Sea into Europe around 3000 BC washed all of the way to the northeast shore of its most westerly island. At present, the Beaker culture is the most probable archaeological vector of this Steppe ancestry into Ireland from the continent, although further sampling from Beaker burials across western Europe will be necessary to confirm this. The extent of this change, which we estimate at roughly a third of Irish Bronze Age ancestry, opens the possibility of accompanying language change, perhaps the first introduction of Indo-European language ancestral to Irish."

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/fourth-strand-of-european-ancestry-originated-with-hunter-gatherers-isolated-by-ice-age

So the Celtic language developed in either France, Germany or Spain and you are stating that everyone who could speak the Celtic language belonged to P312. What about the other haplogroups in western Europe at that time? My point is that the people living in Ireland during the BA were not replaced by the incoming Celts. The autosomal dna shows it. Also,2,500 is the estimated time of the arrival of the Steppe people.

David Mc
09-15-2016, 03:35 PM
So the Celtic language developed in either France, Germany or Spain and you are stating that everyone who could speak the Celtic language belonged to P312. What about the other haplogroups in western Europe at that time? My point is that the people living in Ireland during the BA were not replaced by the incoming Celts. The autosomal dna shows it. Also,2,500 is the estimated time of the arrival of the Steppe people.

I think you need to take another look at Dubhthach's post above (#215). The autosomal DNA may not be showing what you think it is. The incomers from the Steppe were not 100% ANE. They were already admixed in the Steppe and then more so as they made their way across the Continent. I am sure there was eventually some admixture with the Pre-IE population of Ireland, but we really don't know yet. The Rathlin remains suggest that there may not have been a great deal of admixture in Ireland, but again we need testing of more remains to know for sure.

mouse
09-15-2016, 05:41 PM
I think you need to take another look at Dubhthach's post above (#215). The autosomal DNA may not be showing what you think it is. The incomers from the Steppe were not 100% ANE. They were already admixed in the Steppe and then more so as they made their way across the Continent. I am sure there was eventually some admixture with the Pre-IE population of Ireland, but we really don't know yet. The Rathlin remains suggest that there may not have been a great deal of admixture in Ireland, but again we need testing of more remains to know for sure.


The references in bold were not picked up in the Steppe. They are western European.
Eurogenes K15 Rathlin Islander M232268.
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39

vettor
09-15-2016, 05:50 PM
They are in one group as they all share features that are unique to the "Celtic" branch of IE and not found in other IE branches, the prime example been deletion of Proto-IE /p/

For more detail see:
"Pruners and trainers of the Celtic family tree: The rise and development of Celtic in the light of Language contact" by Peter Scrhijver (version on academia.edu is ups

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Pruners_and_trainers_of_the_Celtic_famil.pdf

I think we have moved on from that post and a division of Celtic languages is being more closely looked at

http://eprints.maynoothuniversity.ie/3740/1/DS_Gaulish.pdf

Celtic was not a "tight" language like Latin was..............Latin only seemed to have split after the fall of the Western Roman empire and the emergence of the eastern Roman ( byzantine ) empire with its romanian/dacian latin .
The western latin turning into many vulgar-Latin languages.
Celtic was not as "tight" as Latin , most probably because it was not associated with an empire

dsherry
09-15-2016, 06:39 PM
I have some people in my surname project from the area near Dun Ailinne and was surprised they were also M222. Would fostering be a plausible explanation why the hot spot is there?

kevinduffy
09-15-2016, 07:19 PM
The references in bold were not picked up in the Steppe. They are western European.
Eurogenes K15 Rathlin Islander M232268.
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39

But this Western European DNA would have been picked up as they moved through Europe since they would have likely mated with the other groups that they encountered along the way.

jdean
09-15-2016, 07:28 PM
The references in bold were not picked up in the Steppe. They are western European.
Eurogenes K15 Rathlin Islander M232268.
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39

Never have understood this fascination of trying to prove were ancients came from by comparing them to modern populations ?

Kind of putting the cart before the horse don't you think : )

mouse
09-15-2016, 07:29 PM
But this Western European DNA would have been picked up as they moved through Europe since they would have likely mated with the other groups that they encountered along the way.

The Rathlin Islanders could also have picked it up in Ireland when they got there. It seems like they were just one family with the YDNA DF21 line. We need a lot more ancient tests from Ireland before we can draw any permanent conclusions. There are 30 more tests in the pipeline but that is still not enough to determine 10,000 years of history.

CillKenny
09-15-2016, 08:29 PM
I have some people in my surname project from the are near Dun Ailinne and was surprised they were also M222. Would fostering be a plausible explanation why the hot spot is there?

The Curragh Military camp. Ireland's largest barracks and main training centre is only 6.4 km away. It is back to the problem of who is there now and who was there over 2000 years ago.

CillKenny
09-15-2016, 08:30 PM
I have some people in my surname project from the are near Dun Ailinne and was surprised they were also M222. Would fostering be a plausible explanation why the hot spot is there?

The Curragh Military camp. Ireland's largest barracks and main training centre is only 6.4 km away. It is back to the problem of who is there now and who was there over 2000 years ago.

Apologies for duplicate

rms2
09-15-2016, 11:05 PM
Never have understood this fascination of trying to prove were ancients came from by comparing them to modern populations ?

Kind of putting the cart before the horse don't you think : )

Excellent point. It's bogus reasoning, since whatever "Atlantic" and "North Sea" are today got that way in part due to the contributions of Bell Beaker men like the Rathlin guys. So what we're seeing is that modern people in those categories are most like the Rathlin guys, and not the other way around. Like you said, let's get the horse and cart in the right order.

David Mc
09-15-2016, 11:45 PM
The references in bold were not picked up in the Steppe. They are western European.
Eurogenes K15 Rathlin Islander M232268.
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39

I think everyone else has pretty much covered it. We won't know what was or wasn't picked up in the Steppe and eastern Europe until we get some western Yamnaya DNA, but with the Bell Beaker remains we have we already see a westward autosomal shift, and that's without looking at any Rhenish or French remains.

dsherry
09-16-2016, 12:41 AM
The family name is listed on one of the adjunct pages in the Book of Kells - a real estate transaction from around 1200 - so they have been there a while.

Quote Originally Posted by dsherry View Post
I have some people in my surname project from the are near Dun Ailinne and was surprised they were also M222. Would fostering be a plausible explanation why the hot spot is there?

The Curragh Military camp. Ireland's largest barracks and main training centre is only 6.4 km away. It is back to the problem of who is there now and who was there over 2000 years ago.

mouse
09-16-2016, 04:45 AM
Never have understood this fascination of trying to prove were ancients came from by comparing them to modern populations ?

Kind of putting the cart before the horse don't you think : )

The fact that the ancients were around before us is not putting the cart before the horse. The Neolithic Irish woman is closest to the modern Sardinian population and the scientists have proven that is one of the regions the first farmers from the Middle East passed through. We will never understand the obsession of some R1b with being the first to speak the Celtic language. We know that there was a migration from the east during the BA but what we don't know whether western R1b came with the migration or were waiting at the end of the migration. R1b may have been found in a Celtic grave but that does not prove that R1b was the sole originator of the Celtic language and culture.

sktibo
09-16-2016, 05:30 AM
I know that this may be a bit off topic, but I just want to say how cool it is that the Rathlin Island and the Irish Neolithic woman Gedmatch samples are in here, I had a blast checking them out on Gedmatch. But it's really made me want to see some present day Irish samples to compare them with - Do any of you Gaels feel comfortable sharing Gedmatch numbers?

Jessie
09-16-2016, 06:41 AM
The fact that the ancients were around before us is not putting the cart before the horse. The Neolithic Irish woman is closest to the modern Sardinian population and the scientists have proven that is one of the regions the first farmers from the Middle East passed through. We will never understand the obsession of some R1b with being the first to speak the Celtic language. We know that there was a migration from the east during the BA but what we don't know whether western R1b came with the migration or were waiting at the end of the migration. R1b may have been found in a Celtic grave but that does not prove that R1b was the sole originator of the Celtic language and culture.

Sardinians are closest to the Neolithic Farmers because they have had less impact from other migrations. They are one of the European populations with the least Steppe impact on their genetics. I don't personally see it as an obsession when looking at R1b and Celtic languages. It just looks very likely that this was the case. In the Isles definitely R1b-L21 appears to correlate with where Celtic languages were spoken and U106 where Germanic languages were spoken.

mouse
09-16-2016, 07:32 AM
Sardinians are closest to the Neolithic Farmers because they have had less impact from other migrations. They are one of the European populations with the least Steppe impact on their genetics. I don't personally see it as an obsession when looking at R1b and Celtic languages. It just looks very likely that this was the case. In the Isles definitely R1b-L21 appears to correlate with where Celtic languages were spoken and U106 where Germanic languages were spoken.

What is the reason that other haplogroups living in the Isles at the time that the Celtic language was spoken by L21 were not able to speak the language? Were they speaking a different language?

mouse
09-16-2016, 07:49 AM
I know that this may be a bit off topic, but I just want to say how cool it is that the Rathlin Island and the Irish Neolithic woman Gedmatch samples are in here, I had a blast checking them out on Gedmatch. But it's really made me want to see some present day Irish samples to compare them with - Do any of you Gaels feel comfortable sharing Gedmatch numbers?

Here is one of my L21 cousins. I am not posting his ID.
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 36.66
2 Atlantic 28.53
3 Baltic 12.05
4 Eastern_Euro 11.32
5 West_Med 5.39
6 West_Asian 5.16


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Danish @ 3.225064
2 North_Dutch @ 3.864621
3 West_Scottish @ 4.620540
4 Irish @ 4.913429
5 North_German @ 5.084971
6 Southeast_English @ 6.158536
7 Orcadian @ 6.271585
8 Norwegian @ 6.919686
9 Southwest_English @ 7.658869
10 West_Norwegian @ 7.876431
11 Swedish @ 7.969140
12 North_Swedish @ 10.479984
13 South_Dutch @ 10.720715
14 West_German @ 11.825168
15 East_German @ 14.873783
16 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.899510
17 French @ 16.535017
18 Finnish @ 19.632324
19 Austrian @ 19.927982
20 Hungarian @ 20.494368

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Danish @ 3.225064


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% North_German +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 3.075092


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_German + North_German + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.075092
2 North_German + North_Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.095082
3 North_German + North_Swedish + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.120439
4 Irish + North_German + North_Swedish + Orcadian @ 3.126260
5 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.128035
6 Danish + Danish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.141625
7 North_German + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.158908
8 Danish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.164318
9 Danish + Danish + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.170044
10 Danish + North_German + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.172613
11 Irish + North_German + North_Swedish + West_Scottish @ 3.173511
12 Irish + North_Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.177028
13 Danish + North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.182654
14 Danish + Irish + North_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.190995
15 Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 3.198785
16 Irish + Irish + North_Swedish + West_Scottish @ 3.207373
17 Danish + Irish + North_Swedish + West_Scottish @ 3.209388
18 North_Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.213099
19 Irish + North_German + North_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.213195
20 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.215098

Jessie
09-16-2016, 08:19 AM
What is the reason that other haplogroups living in the Isles at the time that the Celtic language was spoken by L21 were not able to speak the language? Were they speaking a different language?

The vast majority of the Irish are R1b-L21. There are small amounts of other ydna but places like Ireland are unusual in that they have such high amounts of a particular ydna. R1b is a Bronze Age marker as it is not found in Europe before this period, bar the R1b in El Trocs, which was highly likely to be V88 and not the ancestor of the majority of R1b men today. Bell Beaker appear to have been the source of this R1b and the Isles has a very high amount of L21. Most people versed in genetics have said that Bell Beaker appears to have a connection with people that later spoke the Celtic language. This was even mentioned in the Rathlin paper by Cassidy.

Dubhthach
09-16-2016, 08:24 AM
I have some people in my surname project from the area near Dun Ailinne and was surprised they were also M222. Would fostering be a plausible explanation why the hot spot is there?

Southern Uí Néill, recall the area of Carbury in Kildare is named after the Uí Coirpre of the Southern Uí Néill. The boundary between Miḋe (Mí -- Meath) and Laighin (Leinster) wasn't too far north of there.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin01.jpg

Dubhthach
09-16-2016, 08:27 AM
I know that this may be a bit off topic, but I just want to say how cool it is that the Rathlin Island and the Irish Neolithic woman Gedmatch samples are in here, I had a blast checking them out on Gedmatch. But it's really made me want to see some present day Irish samples to compare them with - Do any of you Gaels feel comfortable sharing Gedmatch numbers?

A708277

6 of my great grandparents from West of Ireland (North Clare, South & East Galway, South Roscommon), 1 from Belfast, 1 "Liverpool Irish"

rms2
09-16-2016, 11:30 AM
The fact that the ancients were around before us is not putting the cart before the horse . . .

Yes it is.

The fact that a couple of ancient skeletons resemble certain modern western European populations does not show that those ancient men were largely western European. It merely shows that those modern western people, who - pretty obviously - are living well after those ancient men, are descended in part from men like them. If A comes first in time, and B comes later, then, if A and B resemble each other, B is like A and is likely derived from A and not the other way around.

Let's say that for fun we tested a large group of modern people from the Brighton Beach area of New York City and called the results "New York Atlantic". Subsequently, scientists test a couple of skeletons from the Middle Ages belonging to Jews from Warsaw. Somebody runs them on Gedmatch and finds that "New York Atlantic" is one of the biggest components in the autosomal dna of those medieval Jews from Warsaw. By your reasoning, the medieval Jewish skeletons must have been the remains of tourists from the Big Apple or belonged to descendants of immigrants from there. The truth is, however, that Brighton Beach is peopled largely by people of eastern European Jewish ancestry, much of it Russian, actually. So it is the case that the modern people of Brighton Beach are like those medieval Polish Jews and are derived from ancestors like them and not the other way around.



We will never understand the obsession of some R1b with being the first to speak the Celtic language.

We may also never understand the obsession some have with being descended from cave men who spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. It certainly dies hard though.



We know that there was a migration from the east during the BA but what we don't know whether western R1b came with the migration or were waiting at the end of the migration. R1b may have been found in a Celtic grave but that does not prove that R1b was the sole originator of the Celtic language and culture.

One has to look at the preponderance of the evidence. The facts are that R1b-L23 has been found in Yamnaya and Bell Beaker remains and is currently the predominant y haplogroup in western Europe, where Indo-European languages are overwhelmingly spoken and where there is a significant steppe component in the autosomal dna of people today.

mouse
09-16-2016, 12:06 PM
Yes it is.

The fact that a couple of ancient skeletons resemble certain modern western European populations does not show that those ancient men were largely western European. It merely shows that those modern western people, who - pretty obviously - are living well after those ancient men, are descended in part from men like them. If A comes first in time, and B comes later, then, if A and B resemble each other, B is like A and is likely derived from A and not the other way around.

Let's say that for fun we tested a large group of modern people from the Brighton Beach area of New York City and called the results "New York Atlantic". Subsequently, scientists test a couple of skeletons from the Middle Ages belonging to Jews from Warsaw. Somebody runs them on Gedmatch and finds that "New York Atlantic" is one of the biggest components in the autosomal dna of those medieval Jews from Warsaw. By your reasoning, the medieval Jewish skeletons must have been the remains of tourists from the Big Apple or belonged to descendants of immigrants from there. The truth is, however, that Brighton Beach is peopled largely by people of eastern European Jewish ancestry, much of it Russian, actually. So it is the case that the modern people of Brighton Beach are like those medieval Polish Jews and are derived from ancestors like them and not the other way around.



We may also never understand the obsession some have with being descended from cave men who spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. It certainly dies hard though.



One has to look at the preponderance of the evidence. The facts are that R1b-L23 has been found in Yamnaya and Bell Beaker remains and is currently the predominant y haplogroup in western Europe, where Indo-European languages are overwhelmingly spoken and where there is a significant steppe component in the autosomal dna of people today.

You are not getting the picture. It shows that we are descended from the same autosomal population as those ancients and I do not see what the problem. Is it because they do not come from the Russian Steppe. We are told often enough that we descend from the Yamanya due to the fact that we have the same ancestor, L23. The reality is different because no L11 has been found yet in the Yamnaya, or in their relatives, the CWC. It is hard to believe that the males of CWC came from eastern Europe with no R1b when there was so much R1b living there among the Yamnaya. Not even one Z2103 so far. I don't really care where my ancestors came from whether it was Iberia, the Steppe or the Balkans. I am not my ancestor. My ancestors belonged to many cultures since they left Africa 60,000 years ago.

moesan
09-16-2016, 12:24 PM
What is the reason that other haplogroups living in the Isles at the time that the Celtic language was spoken by L21 were not able to speak the language? Were they speaking a different language?

Are you not splitting hairs here?
L21 males were not the only ones speaking a celtic language, but they formed the big majority and so - as they are males and the "winner" tends to pass its haplos - we can suggest at least that they were too the majority among the celtic languages first bearers into the Isles if not on the continent, no? Not sure, but a good hypothesis for work. I suppose in fact the celtic or rather proto-celtic more numerous bearers were P310 sons of all sort (so also U152 and others). Were they the first I-E speakers in East or only indoeuropeanized folks? I don't know yet. But in West there is some chance. I reason by great numbers, not by exceptional individual cases.

ArmandoR1b
09-16-2016, 12:26 PM
I thought that dartraighe had been posting under a different username

moesan
09-16-2016, 12:37 PM
You are not getting the picture. It shows that we are descended from the same autosomal population as those ancients and I do not see what the problem. Is it because they do not come from the Russian Steppe. We are told often enough that we descend from the Yamanya due to the fact that we have the same ancestor, L23. The reality is different because no L11 has been found yet in the Yamnaya, or in their relatives, the CWC. It is hard to believe that the males of CWC came from eastern Europe with no R1b when there was so much R1b living there among the Yamnaya. Not even one Z2103 so far. I don't really care where my ancestors came from whether it was Iberia, the Steppe or the Balkans. I am not my ancestor. My ancestors belonged to many cultures since they left Africa 60,000 years ago.

Mouse I gave you a 'thank' by error!
I agree partly with your present post. But concerning Yamnaya, we need Western Yamnaya Y-haplos (I don't think we have todate); these groups were very clannic so... Yamnaya or not, the western R1b are L23 too so share common ancestors with Yamna pop not too long before. CWC were not Yamnaya; they were very poor for metals and surely they share EHG (+ some CHG) ancestry with Yamna rather than other thing. Same auDNA basis + some auEEF (Tripolye?), but separated life spite surely contacts and borrowings. Now sure, we have to find the L51 trail to West Europe.

rms2
09-16-2016, 01:43 PM
You are not getting the picture. It shows that we are descended from the same autosomal population as those ancients and I do not see what the problem. Is it because they do not come from the Russian Steppe. We are told often enough that we descend from the Yamanya due to the fact that we have the same ancestor, L23. The reality is different because no L11 has been found yet in the Yamnaya, or in their relatives, the CWC. It is hard to believe that the males of CWC came from eastern Europe with no R1b when there was so much R1b living there among the Yamnaya. Not even one Z2103 so far. I don't really care where my ancestors came from whether it was Iberia, the Steppe or the Balkans. I am not my ancestor. My ancestors belonged to many cultures since they left Africa 60,000 years ago.

No, you are not getting the picture.

I tried explaining it to you, but evidently that did not work. You are wanting to derive the Rathlin Island men from western Europeans based on their resemblance to modern western Europeans, and that is just plain bass ackwards. Modern western Europeans are derived in part from men like the Rathlin Islanders and not vice versa. One cannot use the present geographic location of a much younger population to say much at all about where the far older population came from.

L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 and about the same age. It is extremely unlikely that they arose at opposite ends of the European continent from different, widely separated L23 antecedents. And L51 has been found in Bell Beaker, which thus far has been about 50% Yamnaya-like in its autosomal dna. Marija Gimbutas, a highly respected archaeologist, derived Bell Beaker from the amalgam of Vucedol and Yamnaya.

It is just a matter of time before L51 turns up in western Yamnaya. Thus far we have no y-dna test results from western Yamnaya.

Corded Ware people had little impact on western Europe, where the Bell Beaker culture was the primary initial vehicle for the spread of Indo-European.

jdean
09-16-2016, 01:50 PM
I thought that dartraighe had been posting under a different username

Possibly but I don't think so, maybe a cousin ?

jdean
09-16-2016, 01:51 PM
Mouse I gave you a 'thank' by error!

You could always remove it.

rms2
09-16-2016, 02:02 PM
I thought that dartraighe had been posting under a different username

There is something familiar about the writing style and especially the choice of content.

rms2
09-16-2016, 02:13 PM
Ancient dna interests us because of its potential to tell us things about ourselves and our heritage, not because we are interested in using our results to say things about ancient people: "Oh, look how much modern Boston there is in the Iron Age Irish!"

mouse
09-16-2016, 02:18 PM
No, you are not getting the picture.

I tried explaining it to you, but evidently that did not work. You are wanting to derive the Rathlin Island men from western Europeans based on their resemblance to modern western Europeans, and that is just plain bass ackwards. Modern western Europeans are derived in part from men like the Rathlin Islanders and not vice versa. One cannot use the present geographic location of a much younger population to say much at all about where the far older population came from.

L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 and about the same age. It is extremely unlikely that they arose at opposite ends of the European continent from different, widely separated L23 antecedents. And L51 has been found in Bell Beaker, which thus far has been about 50% Yamnaya-like in its autosomal dna. Marija Gimbutas, a highly respected archaeologist, derived Bell Beaker from the amalgam of Vucedol and Yamnaya.

It is just a matter of time before L51 turns up in western Yamnaya. Thus far we have no y-dna test results from western Yamnaya.

Corded Ware people had little impact on western Europe, where the Bell Beaker culture was the primary initial vehicle for the spread of Indo-European.

The Rathlin Island men left no Y descendants. Their autosomal dna profile is similar to modern western Europeans. It does not matter which group spread the Indo-European language. The reality is that the Irish people adapted it. That is what the autosomal dna is showing all of us.

TigerMW
09-16-2016, 02:23 PM
...
Corded Ware people had little impact on western Europe, where the Bell Beaker culture was the primary initial vehicle for the spread of Indo-European.

I am going to remain open on what Y DNA flowed through Corded Ware. Pre-Germanic languages may have sprung from Corded Ware and Corded Ware was lengthy in time and huge in territory. There is a lot that could have happened we don't understand.

We also have the fission/fusion (some say reflux) events at the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware interaction zones.

YFull estimates the TMRCA of the L151, L11, P310, P311 block as 4900 ybp or about 2900 BC. This about the time that the Corded Ware culture appeared.

The Most Recent Common Ancestor for all of P311 was a single individual. That equates to looking for a needle in the haystack during the Early Bronze Age.

Now, it must considered that this single individual must have had some logistical support in order for his descendants to have diversified into so many geographies so quickly. This means it is not quite so difficult as the needle in the haystack.

Where do we think L51+ P311- types originated?