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newtoboard
01-05-2013, 04:09 PM
They are a confusing peple genetically. They speak an Iranian language and carry a Northern European component but have almost no R1a. They somehow also have significant East Eurasian segments. North Ossetians are closer to North Caucasians but South Ossetians are closer to South Caucasians. Both are more similar to Iranians in terms of mtdna and a parternal admixture from parts of the Cacuasus hasbeen suggested but they carry Ydna G clades restricted often to themselves(plus they should have had some Caucasian ydnas to begin with as they are Iranian speakers in the Caucasus). Plus they have M269 clades matching Iranians. What explains all this?

DMXX
01-05-2013, 04:56 PM
I am aware of their Y-DNA frequencies and the Yunusbayev(?) study which found a G2a subclade belonging almost exclusively to them. I am unaware of their R1b1a2-M269 STR's matching Iranians. If you know of the data purporting this, would you kindly share them?

AJL
01-05-2013, 06:26 PM
Huge areas acquired the Turkish language without getting much Turkic yDNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA.

Think of this as happening "the other way": the maternal language was retained, though the male genetic lines were possibly crowded out by an outside source. Being in the mountains, the effect is magnified.

East Eurasian components are not exactly rare in this area, either, and can be found quite a way to the west (to around the Balkans) and to the south (Near East/Middle East). I myself have a little of this as does my father, and we have no ancestry from anywhere east of a line from the Baltic to the Syrian/Turkish border in the last 200 years or so, though we do have one or two more-distant genetic cousins from Kazakhstan.

Silesian
01-06-2013, 02:55 PM
Lurs, Talysh, [Syunik-Karabakh region] Ossetians. All these are areas are of ancient Iranian and old Armenian history. R1b is Z2105 brother branch of L51 although tentative pending further updates. It is premature to link all these groups, however there are pockets of both R1b Z2105 L277+/L584+ and L277-/L584-, in the above tribes/ peoples /regions.

newtoboard
03-03-2013, 06:12 PM
Are maybe Osssetians not real Ossetians? I know Timerlane destroyed Alania and maybe Ossetians are just descended from a few of the survivors. I have seen this explanation to explain why Northern European admixture is higher in Kurdistan than Iran (because the R1a, northern Euro R1a warrior caste/groups in Persia suffered the most from the invasions).

Silesian
03-03-2013, 10:33 PM
Iron and Digor language placement. How do you reconcile the following two diagrams?
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results

Z283 and Z93 split around 5500 ybp, Wiki and the above language diagram has an almost 2000 year difference in the split of Balto-Slavic language." Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit show break up around 5000The history of the Slavic languages stretches over 3,000 years, from the point at which the ancestral Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up"

Grossvater
03-04-2013, 02:18 AM
I hesitate to insert myself into this discussion as I am no authority on the subject but think it might be germane to the discussion to add that according to Jack Weatherford in his Secret History of the Mongol Queens, there was a significant presence of Ossetian mercenaries at the court of Kublai Khan. These were expelled after the fall of the Yuan Dynasty in 1368. Remnants of them are recorded in Mongolia in the years afterward. Perhaps some of them made back to the Caucasus bringing with them their mixed-race children. Perhaps this accounts for the East Eurasian DNA sequences in modern-day Ossetians. Just a thought...

Jean M
03-04-2013, 03:36 PM
@ Silesian

Looks like the language diagram comes from non-linguists - perhaps one of the more clueless computer models? Specialists in Indo-European linguistics set the date of PIE no earlier than 4000 BC. The chronology of the diagram being elongated makes a mess of the older language splits.

I see nothing wrong with the placement or chronology of Ironian and Digorian though. Balanovsky 2011 gives a timeline for languages of the North Caucasus and Y-DNA, using Starostin’s glottochronology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/figure/F6/

For other dates using from Starostin’s method, see Blažek : On the internal classification of Indo-European languages: survey (http://www.phil.muni.cz/linguistica/art/blazek/bla-003.pdf). He gives a date of about 1200 BC for the break-up of Balto-Slavic (essentially from Baltic breaking away from the core).

Silesian
03-04-2013, 05:06 PM
@ Silesian

Looks like the language diagram comes from non-linguists - perhaps one of the more clueless computer models....

Okay lets go with this theme.


I see nothing wrong with the placement or chronology of Ironian and Digorian though. Balanovsky 2011 gives a timeline for languages of the North Caucasus and Y-DNA, using Starostin’s glottochronology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/figure/F6/

"We analyzed 40 SNP and 19 STR Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential source populations"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/

You are assigning a certain theoretical ydna with a language? You are using a computer model in theoretical mutation rates of str's, and assigning that to a theoretical ydna associated with a particular language? How is that different than using a computer model to simulate the branches and times of the languages?



For other dates using from Starostin’s method, see Blažek : On the internal classification of Indo-European languages: survey (http://www.phil.muni.cz/linguistica/art/blazek/bla-003.pdf). He gives a date of about 1200 BC for the break-up of Balto-Slavic (essentially from Baltic breaking away from the core).


Has J.P. Mallory produced anything resembling the language diagram produced by a computer and "non-linguists" I would really like to compare his work with the one I linked.

Jean M
03-04-2013, 06:06 PM
Mallory is not noted as a tree-constructor. I suppose he may have produced one somewhere, but if so, I can't call it to mind. I did link to Blažek, who gives dated trees for IE and its branches. Otherwise there is Nakhleh, Ringe and Warnow 2005 (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~nakhleh/Papers/81.2nakhleh.pdf) for the main branches. Here's one from me, based on theirs. Click to enlarge.

352

Silesian
03-09-2013, 09:26 PM
Mallory is not noted as a tree-constructor. I suppose he may have produced one somewhere, but if so, I can't call it to mind. I did link to Blažek, who gives dated trees for IE and its branches. Otherwise there is Nakhleh, Ringe and Warnow 2005 (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~nakhleh/Papers/81.2nakhleh.pdf) for the main branches. Here's one from me, based on theirs. Click to enlarge.

352


Most people in the distant past (before nation states and compulsory schooling) learned both culture and language from their biological parents. That is why we find correlations between the two even today. We find a strong correlation within R1a1a between Z93 found in speakers of Iranian and Indic languages; and Z282 among those speaking European IE languages.



Fill in location within 750 mile radius of the following terminal snps.

R-M17-R1a1a- 8000YBP+/-________
R-Z85-R1a1a1-6800YBP+/-________
R-Z645-R1a1a1b-6000YBP+/-______
R-Z283-R1a1a1b1-5500YBP+/-_____
R-Z93-R1a1a1b2-5500YBP+/-______
R-L64-R1a1a1a-5000YBP+/-_______

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results


Or how about these three markers in relation to the map.No dates just rough locations?

R-M173__________
R-M420__________
R-M343__________
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Armenian/GreekAlbanian ydna projects, R1a included Z93 and or Z282 among speaking European IE languages.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Or how about the following language dispersal and the branches of R1a, that came from Kurgan culture.
We do not have to go with the branched language map below we can use your map; however in this diagram Hittite/Albanian/Greek/Armenian are distinct older languages, what branch of R1a came from Kurgan culture and seeded the language in these areas Z93 and or Z282 ?

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v426/n6965/images/nature02029-f1.2.jpg[/QUOTE]

Jean M
03-10-2013, 12:45 AM
I should explain that the second quotation from me comes from another forum: http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=968&start=140#p13019

Jean M
03-10-2013, 12:58 AM
what branch of R1a came from Kurgan culture and seeded the language in these areas Z93 and or Z282 ?


Looking at the results I think we can take a fairly safe guess that Z93 either occurred in the Andronovo Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/among Andronovo_culture), or in a male whose only descendants in the male line entered the Asian steppe with Sintashta or Andronovo, for on present evidence Z93 is infrequent in Europe, but represents almost all R1a1a in Central and Southern Asia. Since migration often occurs in kin groups, it might have been a complete extended family or tribe who moved to the Asian steppe. That would help explain what we see.

Silesian
03-10-2013, 01:12 AM
Looking at the results I think we can take a fairly safe guess that Z93 either occurred in the Andronovo Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/among Andronovo_culture), or in a male whose only descendants in the male line entered the Asian steppe with Sintashta or Andronovo, for on present evidence Z93 is infrequent in Europe, but represents almost all R1a1a in Central and Southern Asia. Since migration often occurs in kin groups, it might have been a complete extended family or tribe who moved to the Asian steppe. That would help explain what we see.

You have to show continuity in dispersal of R1a [the branch of your choice] and the most ancient of Indo-European languages. So how about it? The ancient Hittites/ Armenian/Greeks, the Albanians? This would be an ideal place to start, at the base of some old isolate languages. Which branch of R1a did they carry Z93?

Jean M
03-10-2013, 02:09 AM
Silesian I don't understand you. Why would Hittites, Armenian/Greeks or Albanians carry R1a1a?

What has this to do with the Ossets, who are descended from Alans, and speak an East Iranian language? East Iranian is the branch of Iranian spoken by those Iranian speakers who remained on the steppe. It is generally considered that the Andronovo culture represents the people who developed Proto-Indo-Iranian.

Are you trying to say that the calculated date of R1a1a is older than the calculated date of PIE? If so that is not a problem at all. We don't expect nature to pop up with a mutation in Y-DNA to exactly coincide with the point at which a language splits into daughter languages. Indeed we don't expect a mutation to occur to coincide with a change of culture or a migration or anything else. Nature follows its own timetable. :) Nor should be expect estimated dates for mutations to be exact.

AJL
03-10-2013, 02:19 AM
The ancient Hittites/ Armenian/Greeks, the Albanians? This would be an ideal place to start, at the base of some old isolate languages. Which branch of R1a did they carry Z93?

Armenians have two Z93(xZ94), which is very rare, and they are not closely related.

Jean M
03-10-2013, 02:25 AM
@ AJL

That's interesting. Might be from the Cimmerian entry into that area c. 700 BC.

AJL
03-10-2013, 02:56 AM
@ AJL

That's interesting. Might be from the Cimmerian entry into that area c. 700 BC.


Yes, quite conceivably. I guess it may also be possible (though I am not convinced the dating for this is correct) that Z93(xZ94) was one of several IE haplogroups, and Z94 dates from a little later, from early Indo-Iranian times.

Silesian
03-10-2013, 03:02 AM
Silesian I don't understand you. Why would Hittites, Armenian/Greeks or Albanians carry R1a1a?

"The Kurgan model of Indo-European origins is about both the people and their Proto-Indo-European language."


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Palisto
03-10-2013, 09:19 AM
I am aware of their Y-DNA frequencies and the Yunusbayev(?) study which found a G2a subclade belonging almost exclusively to them. I am unaware of their R1b1a2-M269 STR's matching Iranians. If you know of the data purporting this, would you kindly share them?


Balanovsky et al. 2011 presented 15.7% R-M269 for Ossets-Digor (N=127) and 2.6% R-M269 for Ossets-Iron (N=230)

Jean M
03-10-2013, 10:43 AM
"The Kurgan model of Indo-European origins is about both the people and their Proto-Indo-European language."

There is no reason to suppose that the people who spoke PIE were composed entirely of men of one haplogroup. The subclades of Y-DNA R1 predominate among present-day speakers of Indo-European languages. Y-DNA R1a1a correlates pretty well with speakers of Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic. R1b1a2 dominates the rest of Europe. Germanic speakers are a mixture. Some other haplogroups appear to be fellow travellers in certain directions, particularly certain branches of I2 in Europe and J2 in Asia.

Given that groups who moved east from the east end of the steppe seem to be R1a1a, we can guess that this was the predominant haplogroup there, derived from hunter-gatherers near the Urals who adopted farming from their neighbours. I2 appears to be another local hunter-gatherer type which adopted farming, but rather earlier - in the Danube region, and so arrived in the forest-steppe with Cucuteni. R1b-L23 probably also arrived with Cucuteni, but from Anatolia via Hamangia. There was a lot of genetic mixing between Cucuteni and Yamnaya, but mainly patrilocal it seems. The PIE language came to dominate over the whole steppe region in the Yamnaya horizon, as we can see from the fact that streams from different parts of the region all end in populations speaking IE languages.

If you want all the detail, you will have to await my book.

Jean M
03-10-2013, 10:45 AM
Balanovsky et al. 2011 presented 15.7% R-M269 for Ossets-Digor (N=127) and 2.6% R-M269 for Ossets-Iron (N=230)

They also calculated that the R-M269 was of an age to have arrived with the Alans. I assume that the steppe Alans had mixed with local populations before settling in the Caucasus.

Silesian
03-10-2013, 12:21 PM
If you want all the detail, you will have to await my book.
Yes I'm looking forward :), rough time frame?
Here is a question in the meantime; about the age leading up to PIE 7kYBP-10kYBP.

At one time none of these languages existed, R1b and R1a had common ancestry, I and J had common ancestry.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

What language or group of language isolates were spoken by these earlier people who were the ancestors of the modern day PIE? Do we have have any idea? eg. Uralic/Basque/Sumerian/Elamite?

newtoboard
03-10-2013, 02:11 PM
@ AJL

That's interesting. Might be from the Cimmerian entry into that area c. 700 BC.

Why would Cimmerians differ from other East Iranians (likely Z94+)?

Jean M
03-10-2013, 02:15 PM
@ Silesian

The provisional date for publication of my book is September 2013.

It gets more difficult to reconstruct prehistoric languages the further back you go. Some linguists feel that it is impossible to get further back than PIE to an ancestor of PIE. Others propose Nostradic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages) as the parent of IE and the Uralic family among others. That IE and Uralic link at least seems plausible to me. Y-DNA R and N both descend from NO. But a long time ago! This is going back so far that I doubt if we can really say much about such a language. It would not be a language spoken today anywhere.

The common ancestor of I and J is also so long ago that I really doubt we can say anything useful about the language spoken by IJ. It is highly controversial even to suggest that Elamite and Dravidian came from the same parent in the Neolithic: Elamo-Dravidian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages).

There is plenty of uncertainty around the R1 split. I suggest that R1 sheltered from the LGM on the southern rim of the Caspian and crossed the Caspian seasonally in the Mesolithic. If R1b ended up settling on the south side, while R1a settled on the north side, this would explain what we see today. R1b seems to get involved with farming earlier than R1a. Moving to farming could mean acquiring farmer languages if let's say just one or two R1b men joined a farming village already established by people of another lineage. R1b-V88 seems to be a branch which acquired Afro-Asiatic. I suspect R1b-L23 moved with dairy farming and so came roundabout to the steppe. Whether these people were speaking a language derived from the same ancestor as PIE, or a language acquired from farmers I can't say. I suspect that they spoke an ancestor of Basque, partly because of the R1b in present-day Basques, but also because there is one resemblance between Basque and PIE (the -ko suffix) which suggests close contact at the least. But this is speculation - a long way from certainty.

Jean M
03-10-2013, 02:30 PM
Why would Cimmerians differ from other East Iranians (likely Z94+)?

We can't even be certain that the Cimmerians spoke any form of Iranian. All that survives of their language is a few personal names noted by the literate peoples they attacked. I'm assuming that they were Iranian-speakers though, and closely related to Scythians.

newtoboard
03-10-2013, 09:05 PM
I was guessing based on the Cimmerians being in Timber Grave land and Timber Grave basically ebing a western extension of Andronovo.
So did Ossetians(or their Alanic ancestors) pick up R1b in the North Caucsus before migrating to the Central Caucasus?

newtoboard
03-11-2013, 12:24 PM
No. Autosomally too similar to be just a coincidence.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Northern-Caucasian_575.png
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iranian_575.png
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Pamiri_575.png

source: https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

Iranians are 42% Mediterranian? The most Mediterranian population in West Asia are Turks, Armenians and some Levantines all of whom are close to about 25% Mediterranian. Something seems off here.

DMXX
03-11-2013, 01:03 PM
When discussing the Geno 2.0 results one must, as with all products that produce autosomal data, take into consideration the component numbers and names.

In the case of Geno 2.0, the "West Asian" component occasionally observed in open-source projects (Eurogenes, Dodecad) seems to be split between "Southwest Asian" and "Mediterranean". Additionally, the "Mediterranean" component here partially constitutes Near-Eastern specific components while "Southwest Asian" likely incorporates the "Gedrosian/South-Central Asian" components. I base this on the following:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Altaian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Kuwaiti_575.png

Altaians and other modern steppe populations have a sizeable amount of West Asian in other runs, which is shown here as Southwest Asian. Similarly, Kuwaitis and other Arab populations (i.e. Egyptians) are predominantly Mediterranean here. All of this is complicated by the Georgians, however, who are predominantly Mediterranean here despite being overwhelmingly West Asian in other runs.

If you've managed to follow this post despite the large amount of cross-talk due to the project component descriptors, this is an excellent example of sampling having a profound effect on the overall results. As seen here, the Geno 2.0 sampling strategy differs markedly from Eurogenes and Dodecad, explaining why there isn't a neat correlation between the components.

The Mediterranean and Southwestern components here can be informative to some degree as they reinforce what has been found elsewhere. However, their sampling strategy unfortunately puts them behind the likes of Eurogenes or Dodecad.

jsa
04-27-2013, 09:55 PM
I matched an r1b Ossetian on ysearch. 5 step mutation at 67 markers. I am z2105+ with eastern European roots.

newtoboard
04-28-2013, 07:17 PM
@ Silesian

The provisional date for publication of my book is September 2013.

It gets more difficult to reconstruct prehistoric languages the further back you go. Some linguists feel that it is impossible to get further back than PIE to an ancestor of PIE. Others propose Nostradic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages) as the parent of IE and the Uralic family among others. That IE and Uralic link at least seems plausible to me. Y-DNA R and N both descend from NO. But a long time ago! This is going back so far that I doubt if we can really say much about such a language. It would not be a language spoken today anywhere.

The common ancestor of I and J is also so long ago that I really doubt we can say anything useful about the language spoken by IJ. It is highly controversial even to suggest that Elamite and Dravidian came from the same parent in the Neolithic: Elamo-Dravidian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages).

There is plenty of uncertainty around the R1 split. I suggest that R1 sheltered from the LGM on the southern rim of the Caspian and crossed the Caspian seasonally in the Mesolithic. If R1b ended up settling on the south side, while R1a settled on the north side, this would explain what we see today. R1b seems to get involved with farming earlier than R1a. Moving to farming could mean acquiring farmer languages if let's say just one or two R1b men joined a farming village already established by people of another lineage. R1b-V88 seems to be a branch which acquired Afro-Asiatic. I suspect R1b-L23 moved with dairy farming and so came roundabout to the steppe. Whether these people were speaking a language derived from the same ancestor as PIE, or a language acquired from farmers I can't say. I suspect that they spoke an ancestor of Basque, partly because of the R1b in present-day Basques, but also because there is one resemblance between Basque and PIE (the -ko suffix) which suggests close contact at the least. But this is speculation - a long way from certainty.


Could some lineages have made it back to South of the Caspian (thinking ydna I1/I2)? Could there have been a R shelter southwest of the Caspian(somewhere in Talyshstan/Gilan). I noticed Iranians are probably the only population with R1a*, some of the old R1b cladees and appreciable amount of R2a diversity(and more frequent here than compared to a region like Armenia). Interesting how IJ* was found slightly east of this region, the areas west of this region has a lot of G2a diversity and the this is also the only place where G1 frequencies are not overshadowed by G2. I also believe J1b is found here along with non Semitic J1. The ydna I diversity might be artificial though.

Jean M
04-28-2013, 07:50 PM
All I really know is that there are Mesolithic etchings of boats among the petroglyphs at Gobustan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobustan_National_Park) on the coast of the Caspian in Azerbaijan. These are found with a particular type of small stone tool called "Geometric microliths". The same type of tool appears elsewhere in the southern Caspian basin. From around 9000 BC they also appear in the southern Urals. Contact between the two areas continued up to the Neolithic.

So I picture people crossing from the southern Caspian refuge, where they sheltered each winter, to the steppe in summer to hunt the herds that proliferated on the open grasslands, then returning - a pattern repeated over a long time. I do not know what haplogroups they carried. We cannot know until we have ancient DNA from any human remains that might be found associated with these people. I can only surmise that they carried R1. The basal types of R1 that have been found among modern men in Iran provide some hope that my surmise may be right. But certainty is just not possible at this time.

lgmayka
04-28-2013, 10:10 PM
I matched an r1b Ossetian on ysearch. 5 step mutation at 67 markers.
You probably mean kit 159888 in the Ossetian Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults). Is it possible that his patrilineage is actually Russian (a couple of centuries ago)?

jsa
05-12-2013, 03:21 AM
It is actually "Gatuev" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a from ysearch user id - FEPAF. It's a genetic distance of 4 at 51 markers compared. Do you think I am related to this person? If so, how closely?

Thanks


You probably mean kit 159888 in the Ossetian Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults). Is it possible that his patrilineage is actually Russian (a couple of centuries ago)?

Jean M
05-25-2014, 12:47 PM
Just thought I would mention that two Ossetian males carrying R1a were included in the Underhill 2014 paper. They were both Z2125. See table 4 of Supplementary tables: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg201450s1.html

Arbogan
05-25-2014, 10:55 PM
My theory for examples of modern day ethnicities with clear indo-iranian ancestry is found in north ossetians. Who most likely are mixed between an indigenous north-Caucasian element and Indo-iranians tribes. Primarily, because unlike balto-slavs they show stable south-central asian allele frequencies. Which most likely signatures indo-iranians. We all know that indo-iranians interacted with indigenous south-central asians, and hence would carry with it such signatures. We also know that the allele frequencies in components like west-asian( a composite of caucasus and gedrosia) and northern European are associated with indo-iranian speakers across the board. In the areas where northern european and west-asian peak, outside of west-Eurasia, is most probably where the indo-iranians coalescence based on archaeological findings. The Altaic tribes(while their more far-eastern cousins do not) also carry such alleles, as do the ket siberians whose ancestral language was influenced by indo-iranian vocbulary. Indo-iranians probably came in waves aswell.

We only need indo-iranian skeletons and solid sampling to confirm it. I also think more studying should be invested in examining north-caucasus as a possible recipient of Indo-iranian related R1a1. It would solve the debate once and for all. I think it's silly that no one has yet to do autosmal dna testing on the androvono skeletons, beyond the basic haplogroup mining. We need something similar to these recent archaeology-genetic studies.

parasar
05-26-2014, 02:46 AM
Regarding the Osset Z2125, their overall R1a1 proportion is very low - 1%

Caucasus, Total/R1a1
Abkhazes 162/15
Osetins South 23/1
Osetins North 134/1
Avars 42/1
Chamalals 27/2
Bagvalals 28/1
Andis 49/1
Tabasarans 43/1
Adyghes 160/18
Karachays 69/19
Kumyks 76/10
Balkars 136/35
Cherkessians 126/16
Kabardians 141/19
Abazas 89/17
Nogays 87/11
Karanogays 77/7
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

Asparuk
05-26-2014, 05:57 AM
Disrespectful choice for a title: "Ossetian Question", reminds me of Hitler's final solution and "the Jewish question" :\ I don't know if that's what you were going for?

http://i57.tinypic.com/2s67gb4.jpg


They are a confusing peple genetically. They speak an Iranian language and carry a Northern European component but have almost no R1a.

It's because the Alan elites were warriors and either died or fled to Europe. What we have left is local mountain people who didn't get decimated as badly as the Alans of the Caucasus foothills/plains. That said, the Alan (or maybe much older) genetic contribution looks to be mostly on the female side, refugees I would say:

http://i62.tinypic.com/wjcavn.png



North Ossetians are closer to North Caucasians but South Ossetians are closer to South Caucasians.

That's quite the assumption. Wouldn't it be wiser to just say South Ossetians are intermediate between South Caucasians and North Caucasians? But this dendogram says they are almost identical:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/K13_NJ_Tree-1.png~original

South Ossetians, for whatever its worth:

http://i62.tinypic.com/169g6zq.jpg


Primarily because unlike balto-slavs they show stable south-central allele frequencies.

Interesting. Could you show some of this?

Jean M
05-26-2014, 09:46 AM
It's because the Alan elites were warriors and either died or fled to Europe. What we have left is local mountain people who didn't get decimated as badly as the Alans of the Caucasus foothills/plains. That said, the Alan (or maybe much older) genetic contribution looks to be mostly on the female side, refugees I would say

That was my own conclusion in AJ.

Jean M
05-26-2014, 09:50 AM
We only need indo-iranian skeletons ... to confirm it.

We have them. Or to be specific, at Klin Yar we have nine Sarmatian tombs, two transitional Sarmatian/Alanic and 24 Alanic catacombs. These people would all have been speaking an Iranian language, the ancestor of Ossetian.
http://www.reading.ac.uk/archaeology/research/Projects/arch-HH-Klin-Yar.aspx

Arbogan
05-26-2014, 11:06 AM
As for north-ossetians, i'll post the results of the individuals who i have viewed via gedmatch, soon.

DMXX
05-26-2014, 11:30 AM
This thread has gone down an unnecessary tangent, which doesn't benefit the discussion on Ossetian genetics at all; as Baibars alluded to, not a single post so far has addressed the subject of Ossetians in a political context.

Asparukh: if you still have grievances with the thread's title, please contact me via PM.

To preserve the discussion, I have deleted posts focused exclusively on that disruptive tangent and have made post edits where necessary. These changes are fully in line with our forum policy on tangents (Section 3.8) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/faq.php). Thanks everyone for your cooperation.

Pigmon
05-26-2014, 03:02 PM
It is actually "Gatuev" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a from ysearch user id - FEPAF. It's a genetic distance of 4 at 51 markers compared. Do you think I am related to this person? If so, how closely?

Thanks

I thought I would comment here as well. My closest match, besides a known cousin with my surname, on ysearch is "Gatuev" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a. I am a distance of 6 at 51 compared. My ysearch ID is ZHHCY.

Arbogan
05-27-2014, 06:39 PM
Ok here are the north-ossetian results in eurogenes k36, K12B and dodecad k12b. I've highlighted the interesting results.

Eurogenes 36k
North_Caucasian 50.57%
West_Caucasian 16.23%
Italian 9.01%
S.C.E 7.06% (South central-asian)
Armenian 4.60%
Volga-Ural 2.64%
E.C.A 2.18% (East-central-asian)
North_Atlantic 1.94%
East_Med 1.38%
Siberian 1.13%
Central_Euro 0.90%
East_Balkan 0.76%
North_Sea 0.49%
South_Chinese 0.32%
Central_African 0.22%
French 0.21%
North_African 0.17%
Pygmy 0.08%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
North_Caucasian 52.57%
West_Caucasian 17.43%
S.C.E 8.40% (South central-asian)
Italian 5.30%
Armenian 4.74%
East_Med 3.18%
E.C.A 2.24% (East-central-asian)
Siberian 2.13%
Volga-Ural 1.30%
Arabian 1.01%
North_Atlantic 0.74%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
North_Caucasian 48.17%
West_Caucasian 17.63%
Italian 7.01%
S.C.E 9.01% (South central-asian)
Armenian 5.60%
Volga-Ural 1.64%
E.C.A 1.99% (East-central-asian)
East_Med 2.37%
Siberian 1.03%
Central_Euro 1.40%
East_Balkan 1.76%
North_Sea 1.49%
Oceanian 0.19%
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
North_Caucasian 48.18%
West_Caucasian 18.92%
Armenian 7.46%
Near_Eastern 6.55%
S.C.E 5.85%
Italian 3.35%
Volga-Ural 2.71%
East_Balkan 2.08%
Central_Euro 1.62%
E.C.E 1.20%
East_Central_Euro 1.22%
Siberian 0.36%
South_Chinese 0.33%
Oceanian 0.14%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eurogenes K12b
Caucasus 53.17%
W.E 11.52% (West european)
North European 11.42%
W.C.A 8.87%
Siberian 4.37%
East Asian 4.04%
Southwest Asian 3.22%
Mediterranean 2.35%
Finnish 0.65%
West African 0.30%
East African 0.09%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caucasus 55.17%
North European 10.01%
West Central Asian 9.00%
Western European 8.52%
Siberian 5.37%
Mediterranean 4.15%
Southwest Asian 3.77%
East Asian 3.25%
Finnish 0.81%
South Asian -
West African -
East African -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caucasus 51.17%
W.E 13.02%(West european)
North European 12.92%
W.C.A 8.47% (West central-asian)
Siberian 2.97%
East Asian 3.54%
Southwest Asian 4.07%
Mediterranean 3.75%
Finnish 1.14%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caucasus 55.48%
North European 9.15%
Western European 7.90%
West Central Asian 6.83%
Mediterranean 4.38%
Siberian 3.77%
East African 0.67%
Southwest Asian 4.32%
South Asian 2.12%
Finnish 3.27%
East Asian 2.11%



I'll post K12b dodecad tommorow, I had to leave abruptly. But you can see the pattern with these 4 north-ossetians.

Asparuk
06-01-2014, 04:45 AM
Asparukh: if you still have grievances with the thread's title, please contact me via PM.


Maybe I was being a bit overly dramatic, belonging to Ossetic G2a1a haplogroup and all.


Ok here are the north-ossetian results in eurogenes k36, K12B and dodecad k12b. I've highlighted the interesting results.


Interesting. It's funny how many times the north-Euro aspect of Indo-Iranians is mentioned yet the autochonous west-Asian element is neglected.

http://i62.tinypic.com/sqp37p.png

^Both U1a and U3 are rare in Europeans but relatively common in Near-Eastern populations, especially Svans of Georgia.

http://www.degruyter.com/view/books/9783110266306/9783110266306.93/9783110266306.93.xml

Tomenable
08-14-2016, 10:38 PM
They are a confusing peple genetically. They speak an Iranian language and carry a Northern European component but have almost no R1a.

IIRC they have between a few and 20 percent of R1a depending on sample, but South Ossetians have more than North Ossetians. We have ancient Y-DNA samples from burials of ethnically Iranian Alans.

One of those Caucasian Alans was R1a, the other one was G2a:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

https://s3.postimg.io/ipyu2t4zn/Alanowie.png

Tomenable
08-14-2016, 11:09 PM
"Between a few and 20 % of R1a" in based on this (in one South Ossetian sample R1a was close to 1/5):

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

Silesian
08-14-2016, 11:29 PM
Modern day Ossetian project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ossetian/dna-results

Sintashta built their fortified settlements over/on top of Poltavka graves . Poltavka=R1b-Z2105 , 1000+/- years older than R1a-Z93/94+[R-Z93Z2479/M746/S4582/V3664 * Z93/F992/S202formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybpinfo] found in Ossetian.

Rise sample 548=Z2105*
Ancient Eurasia K6 4-Ancestors Oracle

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Steppe_EMBA +50% Steppe_EMBA @ 6.984171


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Czech +25% EHG +25% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 2.611572


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 AG2 + Italian_South + Motala12 + Steppe_MLBA @ 1.225291
2 AG3 + Italian_South + Motala12 + Steppe_MLBA @ 1.225291
3 Italian_South + MA1 + Motala12 + Steppe_MLBA @ 1.225291
4 AG2 + Armenia_ChL + Lithuanian + Motala12 @ 1.495179
5 AG3 + Armenia_ChL + Lithuanian + Motala12 @ 1.495179
6 Armenia_ChL + Lithuanian + MA1 + Motala12 @ 1.495179
7 AG2 + Hungarian_KO1 + Lezgin + Norwegian @ 1.569334
8 AG2 + Lezgin + Norwegian + WHG @ 1.569334
9 AG3 + Hungarian_KO1 + Lezgin + Norwegian @ 1.569334
10 AG3 + Lezgin + Norwegian + WHG @ 1.569334
gedrosia K6 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 40.15
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 39.87
3 Natufian 19.58

Location of Rise sample 548[R1b-Z2103]
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_02_11_30_2015.png
10971

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Georgia_high_detail_map.png

Ossetians belong to R1b-Z2105>5586 R-Y5587Y5587formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybpinfo

R-Y5587*
R-Y5586Y5588 * Y5586formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybpinfo

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

AJL
08-14-2016, 11:38 PM
The thread has been moved to the Caucasus subforum, where it seems to fit better than in General, with a one-week expiring redirect.

Silesian
08-14-2016, 11:47 PM
Jászság-project snp and R1b-9219+ 5586? 5587?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag?iframe=ysnp
Jászság (Latin: Jazigia)[1] is a historical, ethnographical and geographical region in Hungary. Its 1,161 km2 (448 sq mi) territory is situated in the north-western part of the Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county. The main town in the region is Jászberény. Jászság is inhabited by the Jassic people, whose linguistic base is preserved by the Ossetians. The population of the region is around 85,000.

Arame
08-15-2016, 07:48 AM
I just looked. This G2a1a1a1b1 seems to be a recent important founder effect. That explains their high level of G2a1.

Hedda Gabler
09-13-2017, 11:49 AM
Ossetians are a small population. And when small populations mix with neighbouring ethnicities, it changes their genetic structures dramatically. You can't or hardly change the genetic structure of Chinese people through mixing, for example.

NarLFC
11-25-2018, 10:53 AM
I would've assumed their R1a to be much higher.

Xeon
08-16-2020, 02:50 AM
Ossetian/alanic history is not exactly native to the north Caucasus. it is believed that Alans were forced to take refuge from both Turkic and Mongolian invasions within modern day Kazakhstan.
Both of these groups were either assimilating or killing the remaining eastern Iranians whom inhabited the steppe and northern central Asia.
Alans managed to take refuge from the Mongolian herds within the isolated and protected north Caucasian mountains.
there were probably only a few of them, which means they must've spread their culture and language to the natives there and assimilated, which explains why they are close to other north Caucasian groups around them.

Alans are probably the only branch of the western Scythian / Sarmatian confederation that managed to survive assimilation and cultural eradication by eastern invaders.
the rest of these Iranic speakers were assimilated within Turkic tribes or killed off by the Mongols. Tatars living in Russia, around Kazan area are a good example of this assimilation taking place.

Fried
10-23-2021, 07:23 PM
Whether the Ossetians are real Alanic, that is the question. Russian geneticist Balanovsky (R.I.P.) stated that the Ossetians have no Steppe component at all. Plus their dominative (about 70%) haplogroup G2a1a has been found in the Koban culture, is currently concentrated in the Western Caucasus among the Karachay-Balkars, Georgians, Svans and Megrelians, and is completely absent among the Scytho-Sarmatic genetical samples of the Iron Age.

Kanenas
10-24-2021, 08:32 AM
Whether the Ossetians are real Alanic, that is the question. Russian geneticist Balanovsky (R.I.P.) stated that the Ossetians have no Steppe component at all. Plus their dominative (about 70%) haplogroup G2a1a has been found in the Koban culture, is currently concentrated in the Western Caucasus among the Karachay-Balkars, Georgians, Svans and Megrelians, and is completely absent among the Scytho-Sarmatic genetical samples of the Iron Age.

It is simple. The Ossetians are real Alans but 'Scytho-Sarmatians' were something else.

Fried
10-24-2021, 02:54 PM
It is simple. The Ossetians are real Alans but 'Scytho-Sarmatians' were something else.
The Alans were a Scytho-Sarmatian tribal alliance - nomadic as all Scytho-Sarmatians. They can not be separated from the Scytho-Sarmatian legacy.
Soviet anthropologist V.P. Alekseyev stated that
Medieval Alans differed from Ossetians so much that the difference between them corresponds to the difference between the extreme variants of the Europid race

Plus genetical difference - the main Ossetian haplogroup G-P18 is completely absent not only in the Scytho-Sarmatian tombs of the Iron Age, but in the Alanic tombs of Early Medieval Age in the North Caucasus, even in North Ossetia itself.
And it is absent among the modern populations on the territory of the former European or Asiatic Sarmatia.
For a comparison, haplogroup R1a-Z2122-Y52 is belonged by ancient Sarmatian samples DA134 (Don steppes, Russia), CHY002 (Orenburg steppes,Russia) and BUR003 (Mongolia) and can be found among the modern peoples of Eurasia from China to Spain, but is completely absent among the Ossetians.

Kanenas
10-24-2021, 03:47 PM
The Alans were a Scythj-Sarmatian tribal alliance - nomadic as all Scytho-Sarmatians. They can not be separated from the Scytho-Sarmatian history.
Soviet anthropologist V.P. Alekseyev stated that

Plus genetical difference - the main Ossetian haplogroup G-P18 is completely absent not only in the Scytho-Sarmatians tombs of the Iron Age, but in the Alanic tombs of Early Medieval Age in the North Caucasus, even in North Ossetia itself. Autosomally the Ossetians are one of the most autochthonous peoples in Caucasus.

The term 'Scytho-Sarmatian' is a rather generic term to group populations that may have had broadly similar lifestyles but not necessarily the exact same origin, culture or even language.
Imho, that is reflected e.g. in Herodotus who considers the population he names 'Sauromatians' as an essentially Scythian related population (see the myth of Scythian men + 'Amazon' women), while he considers e.g. the Massagetae as a non-Scythian group.

There's a chance modern scientists are putting wrong labels on old samples (Archeologists were putting rather inaccurate ethnic labels to material cultures too). We have seen it e.g. with Huns, Avars, Gepids, Ostrogoths etc.

Of course, there is a possibility they were not 'real Alans' but people who have changed their language but they speak the same language medieval Alans were speaking.