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MitchellSince1893
11-09-2015, 04:51 PM
DISCLAIMER: The following is based on individuals self reporting their ancestral homeland in FTDNA projects, which is often in error, have an non paternal event, or other issues which skew the numbers

We've all seen maps showing the percentages of U152 in Britain based on various studies http://tinyurl.com/oz4jhsb

These maps are comparing U152 numbers to other haplgroups.

Other maps show the location of FTDNA participants' ancestry https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zkSYxzeIDjkU.kRCmtfxd9LyQ

Apparently the map in the link only shows those who have joined the U152 project. For example Cumberland and Westmorland and Northumberland and Durham have 5 samples (none in Westmorland). So far I've found 18 U152 samples in this area including 3 in Westmoreland.

It would be great if FTDNA would show all U152 confirmed SNPs in every project. Because they don't I've been googling for them.

It's still way early in this process, but the following counties in England have the greatest numbers of U152.

1. Norfolk
2. Suffolk
3. Middlesex and Essex
5. Devon
6. Durham
7. Cornwall, Cumberland, Kent, Lancashire, W York

No surprise on the top 4 based on previous studies where U152 is high in East Anglia. The Devon numbers may be high because Plymouth is in Devon and many early immigrants came to America from Plymouth, but this wouldn't be the case for Durham.

The highest percentages counties so far (these will most likely change significantly as more samples are added)
1. Essex
2. Westmoreland and Nottingham
4. Cumberland
5. Warwickshire
6. Herfordshire
7. Norfolk
8. Durham
9. Middlesex

Don't read too much into the percentages at this point except that Cumberland and Westmorland (together known as Cumbria) standout as they weren't known as a U152 hotspot in previous studies.

Also of note is the low numbers I have so far for Southeast England (Kent, Sussex, Isle of Wight, and Hampshire). This doesn't match previous studies where U152 was high, particularly in Kent (see disclaimer above).

So far I've found 1100 confirmed SNPs on FTDNA projects that can be assigned to an English county. I will provide periodic updates as the numbers come in.

MitchellSince1893
11-16-2015, 12:29 AM
Added another 300 samples in the last 6 day...now have almost 1400 samples for English counties

Counties with top overall number of U152
-Norfolk has 11
-Suffolk, Middlesex, and Essex each have 8
-Devon and Durham both have 6
-Cornwall, Cumberland, Kent, Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Warwick, Yorkshire W, all have 4 each


The highest percentages U152 counties so far (again these will most likely change significantly as more samples are added)
1 Westmorland
2 Worchester
3 Nottinghamshire
4 Cumberland
5 Durham
6 Norfolk
7 Dorset
8 Hertfordshire
9 Essex
10 Warwickshire
11 Northampton
12 Hertfordshire
13 Buckinghamshire
14 Lincoln

Next up are adding the I and R1a haplogroup project numbers

MitchellSince1893
11-21-2015, 12:51 AM
Just an update. I've gone through the y haplogroup projects and am now doing individual county searches. Completed 13 of 43 counties so far.

I started this process with FTDNA's British Isles by county project with 670 confirmed SNPs. I've added another 1000 confirmed SNPs that can be assigned to an English county (1680 total).

Here's the latest stats per county for U152. Keep in mind some of these counties have very small sample sizes e.g. Rutland has 3 samples, 4 have over 100 (Middlesex, Dorset, Suffolk, Yorkshire).

111 of 1680 so far are U152. In all likelihood, these percentages go down as I add more data.

1 Rutland 33% (thoroughly searched, only 3 samples found and 1 is U152)
2 Westmorland 27.3% (thoroughly searched, only 11 samples found and 3 are U152)
3 Durham 15.4% (thoroughly searched 6 of 39 are U152)
4 Norfolk 14.5% (thoroughly searched 11 of 76 are U152)
5 Worchester 14.3% (2 of 14 are U152 but I haven't searched this county thoroughly)
6 Cumberland 12.0% (thoroughly searched, 3 of 25 are U152)
7 Nottinghamshire 11.5% (thoroughly searched 3 of 26 are U152)
8 Essex 10.9% (thoroughly searched 7 of 64 are U152)
9 Dorset 10.7% (3 of 28 are U152 but haven't searched this county thoroughly)
10 Hertfordshire 9.1%
11 Warwickshire 8.9%
12 Buckinghamshire 8.7%
13 Lincoln 8.0%
14 Cornwall 7.7%
15 Middlesex 7.4%
16 Surrey 7.4%
17 Suffolk 7.3% (thoroughly searched 8 of 109 are U152)
18 Yorkshire West 7.0%
19 Cheshire 6.7%
20 Yorkshire East 6.7%
21 Gloucester 6.0%
22 Cambridge 5.9% (includes Huntingdonshire)
23 Kent 5.6%
24 Oxfordshire 5.6%
25 Yorkshire North 5.1%
26 Devon 5.0%
27 Lancashire 4.9%
28 Wiltshire 4.8%
29 Northumberland 4.5%
30 Staffordshire 4.44%
31 Somerset 3.3%
32 Derbyshire 3.2% (thoroughly searched, 1 of 31 U152)
33 Bedfordshire 0.00%
34 Berkshire 0.00%
35 Hampshire 0.0% (thoroughly searched, 0 of 18 U152)
36 Herefordshire 0.0%
37 Isle of Wight 0.0% (thoroughly searched, 0 of 11 U152)
38 Leicestershire 0.0% (thoroughly searched, 0 of 21 U152)
39 Northampton 0.0% (thoroughly searched of of 26 U152)
40 Shropshire 0.00%
41 Sussex 0.0% (Combined east and west Sussex)

Got to take a little pause on this...other matters to attend to, but I'm hoping to wrap it up in a couple of weeks.

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2015, 11:33 PM
..Got to take a little pause on this...other matters to attend to, but I'm hoping to wrap it up in a couple of weeks.

I've finally got some time to complete this "little" project. Just finished the county I was dreading most. Middlesex/London which is now 5.7% U152...8 out of 141 samples

I've got 7 counties left to thoroughly search. Cornwall, Devon, Surrey, Sussex, York, Lancashire, Gloucester.

So far I have 1827 samples of which 113 are U152 (6.2%).

Hopefully I can get it all done by the end of the year.

lamahorse
12-18-2015, 01:15 PM
6964

These maps on Eupedia might be a little dated but more recent frequencies seem to back it up. The higher frequency of U152/S28 in mid Munster and south Connacht are perplexing. You'd expect that U152 arrived in Ireland via Norman or English settlers. This is backed up with the high frequency of U152 in Antrim which is populated by many Ulster-Scots yet other parts of the country that were heavily settled by English adventurers have a distinct absence of U152.

Ireland was famously conquered (initially without official sanction) by the grandsons of the Normans who conquered/settled in Wales in the 12th Century. We have some implication (U152 Barry cluster) that these Cambro-Normans were U152 carriers yet can this explain the large frequency difference over the rest of the population? Might this suggest an earlier U152 influx into Ireland?

I don't mean to hijack your thread but both of these islands have been exchanging population for thousands of years. It's interesting to see that the Lowland Scots descended Antrim based Ulster Scots, still retain the strong U152 frequency of Lowland Scotland. I don't know how to explain the strong frequency of U152 across an area that would have been considered a very traditionally Gaelic population.

R.Rocca
12-18-2015, 02:19 PM
6964

These maps on Eupedia might be a little dated but more recent frequencies seem to back it up. The higher frequency of U152/S28 in mid Munster and south Connacht are perplexing. You'd expect that U152 arrived in Ireland via Norman or English settlers. This is backed up with the high frequency of U152 in Antrim which is populated by many Ulster-Scots yet other parts of the country that were heavily settled by English adventurers have a distinct absence of U152.

Ireland was famously conquered (initially without official sanction) by the grandsons of the Normans who conquered/settled in Wales in the 12th Century. We have some implication (U152 Barry cluster) that these Cambro-Normans were U152 carriers yet can this explain the large frequency difference over the rest of the population? Might this suggest an earlier U152 influx into Ireland?

I don't mean to hijack your thread but both of these islands have been exchanging population for thousands of years. It's interesting to see that the Lowland Scots descended Antrim based Ulster Scots, still retain the strong U152 frequency of Lowland Scotland. I don't know how to explain the strong frequency of U152 across an area that would have been considered a very traditionally Gaelic population.

For Ireland, I would not put too much weight on frequency maps, as the only academic data for U152 there is based on very small counts.

MitchellSince1893
12-20-2015, 02:39 AM
Got through Cornwall and Surrey today. Took a pause to compare the ZZ11 brothers, DF27 and U152. As I mentioned in another thread, there is definitely and geographic difference between the two. There is more U152 in the North and East and more DF27 in the South and West. This might indicate their predominate points of entry into Britain. DF27 from the Atlantic side and U152 from the North Sea.

6981

razyn
12-20-2015, 06:39 AM
There is more U152 in the North and East and more DF27 in the South and West. This might indicate their predominate points of entry into Britain. DF27 from the Atlantic side and U152 from the North Sea.

It might, but I don't recall having seen chat about Danish or Viking U152. (I do realize that whether I have seen it is not an academically rigorous category.) Is there any map of Roman legionary occupation by county, and whether the legions that occupied your blue counties were any more Italic (or less Gallic) than those occupying the yellow ones? I shouldn't think Bell Beaker migrations, as such, would create such clearly differentiated patterns some four thousand years later. The patterns will probably shift a good bit if you repeat the exercise in a couple of years, but it already looks almost as if it means something.

MitchellSince1893
12-20-2015, 07:36 AM
It might, but I don't recall having seen chat about Danish or Viking U152. (I do realize that whether I have seen it is not an academically rigorous category.) Is there any map of Roman legionary occupation by county, and whether the legions that occupied your blue counties were any more Italic (or less Gallic) than those occupying the yellow ones? I shouldn't think Bell Beaker migrations, as such, would create such clearly differentiated patterns some four thousand years later. The patterns will probably shift a good bit if you repeat the exercise in a couple of years, but it already looks almost as if it means something.

I should have been more precise in what I meant by "North Sea" side. I wasn't thinking of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, or Vikings. I meant earlier folks entering England from the Eastern side e.g. from the Low Countries and Northeastern France, passing through Kent or landing directly in East Anglia. Historic groups in the category might include late Bronze age Eastern Beaker groups, the Continental Celts (Hallstatt, La Tene and others in the Rhine River Delta region) and possibly Romans.

While folks coming from the "Atlantic" side would be coming up from Brittany and Normandy to cross into Southern England. I'm not as familiar with these historic groups and without doing further research I'm not going to elaborate further on them.

As to your comment about Romans. I'm coming to the opinion that the apparent above average U152 percentages I'm seeing in Northern England and Southeastern Scotland, may in part be due to Roman forces manning the Hadrian and Antonine Walls and associated outposts.

I'm hesitant to come to the conclusion because I think others have overstated the genetic impact of the Romans in Britain as a whole; linking most U152 in Britain to the Romans. This is not view I share, but in this sparsely populated area a few thousand men stationed here for several decades may have left a significant genetic impact.

I spoke about this subject in these posts
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4399-British-Isles-DNA-Project-by-County-Mapped-for-U152&p=94317&viewfull=1#post94317
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4399-British-Isles-DNA-Project-by-County-Mapped-for-U152&p=94388&viewfull=1#post94388

In the other U152 hotspot, in Norfolk; I think the Iceni may have been a U152 rich tribe as there wasn't a strong Roman presence there. I have not found any info on the origin of the Iceni but they may have come in with La Tene or earlier groups.

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2015, 06:33 AM
...In the other U152 hotspot, in Norfolk; I think the Iceni may have been a U152 rich tribe as there wasn't a strong Roman presence there. I have not found any info on the origin of the Iceni but they may have come in with La Tene or earlier groups.

Just found this about the Iceni/Eceni


the Iceni (or Eceni) were a Celtic tribe based in what is now Norfolk, north-western Suffolk and eastern Cambridgeshire. They may also be identified with the tribe of the Cenimagni ('Ceni' or Iceni and 'magni', 'great'), who sided with Caesar during his invasion of 54 BC, perhaps signalling the beginnings of the Iceni's pro-Roman policy. Like their neighbours, they were probably a Belgic tribe from the North Sea or Baltics, part of the third wave of Celtic settlers in Britain. (See the map of most of Europe's tribes around the first centuries BC and AD to view the tribe's location in relation to all other Celts.)

However, the Iceni are also linked to the La Tène period in Europe, thanks to the work of Hawkes (1931) and Childe (1940), both of whom are cited by Jones (1997). He noted that Childe interpreted the burials and stray objects regarded as characteristic of the La Tène tradition in East Anglia as the culture of 'Marnian Chieftains' (Celts from the River Marne region) who established control of the 'Halstatt peasantry' and later founded the Iceni tribe. This would be typical of a late-arriving and more advanced Celtic group who established a new ruling elite over an existing body of earlier Celts.

Source http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainIceni.htm

This matches my recent thoughts that most U152 in Britain may have been a relatively late arrival i.e. Halstatt and La Tène instead of Bell Beaker. I've been leaning this way because currently U152 appears in higher percentages in the Eastern half of England with Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex having some of the highest U152 percentages in England.
La Tène was also primarily concentrated on the North Sea side of England.

Based on what I've recently read on these forums, L21 may be a good candidate for bringing Bell Beaker into Britain. It has a more uniform distribution throughout England, while U152 appears more concentrated in certain areas in the North and East.

Yet I fully appreciate the dangers in reading too much into present day distributions in interpreting ancient history.

ahead01
12-27-2015, 12:01 AM
Just an update. I've gone through the y haplogroup projects and am now doing individual county searches. Completed 13 of 43 counties so far.

I started this process with FTDNA's British Isles by county project with 670 confirmed SNPs. I've added another 1000 confirmed SNPs that can be assigned to an English county (1680 total).

Here's the latest stats per county for U152. Keep in mind some of these counties have very small sample sizes e.g. Rutland has 3 samples, 4 have over 100 (Middlesex, Dorset, Suffolk, Yorkshire).

111 of 1680 so far are U152. In all likelihood, these percentages go down as I add more data.

1 Rutland 33% (thoroughly searched, only 3 samples found and 1 is U152)
2 Westmorland 27.3% (thoroughly searched, only 11 samples found and 3 are U152)
3 Durham 15.4% (thoroughly searched 6 of 39 are U152)
4 Norfolk 14.5% (thoroughly searched 11 of 76 are U152)
5 Worchester 14.3% (2 of 14 are U152 but I haven't searched this county thoroughly)
6 Cumberland 12.0% (thoroughly searched, 3 of 25 are U152)


I'm probably one of the three U152 results tagged to Cumberland; my paternal ancestor emigrated to the American colonies around 1677, but I have a Y-DNA match to a distant cousin who still lives in Cumbria.

I'm most intrigued by the Roman hypothesis; my family name in Cumberland appears to originate in Dalston parish, just south of Carlisle and Hadrian's Wall. I keep hoping that enough Z49 results will show up that we can get a statistically significant heat map and narrow down a point of origin within mainland Europe.

jbarry6899
12-27-2015, 05:40 PM
6964
Ireland was famously conquered (initially without official sanction) by the grandsons of the Normans who conquered/settled in Wales in the 12th Century. We have some implication (U152 Barry cluster) that these Cambro-Normans were U152 carriers yet can this explain the large frequency difference over the rest of the population?

A couple of clarifications: The Barry Z49 cluster consists of 29 men, who comprise about 25% of the men in that surname project. However, none of thes men have documentation of descent from the Anglo-Norman (or more likely Anglo-Flemish) men who participated in the 12th century invasion. We do have three sets of DNA results for men who do claim such descent, based on a family history manuscript written in the 20th century, but they are clearly unrelated as they are in different subclades from the Z49 group and from each other, namely I1-Z58, I1-L813 and R1b-CTS4466. Thus there are clearly errors some of their pedigrees or in the family histories. More may be revealed when we complete testing on the remains of one of the Earls of Barrymore, which is currently in progress.

I did some cursory examination of the men who may be fairly closely related to the Z49 cluster in three geographic projects, Ireland, Normandy and Flanders. I looked at men with that terminal SNP and those in earlier subclades (L2, U152 and M269) who had similar 12 marker haplotypes, to account for the fact that relatively few men have tested to Z49. (You may recall that the old Deep Clade test stopped at L2.) The results showed that this group is relatively rare in Ireland, on the order of 2% of the results, but more numerous in Normandy at about 5% and especially in Flanders, with 10% or more matching the criteria. I also looked at the surnames associated with these men in the Ireland project. About 2/3 were of English or Norman origin, which would support the case for a significant 12th century arrival, but the remainder were of Gaelic origin, which would be consistent either with an earlier set of sporadic movements from England, Scotland and Wales, or with a reasonable rate of non-paternal events involving Anglo-Norman/Flemish men fathering/fostering/adopting men who had Irish surnames.

MitchellSince1893
12-29-2015, 03:13 AM
Well, it took almost 2 months, but I finaaaaally got through all the counties of England over the weekend.

That was much more work than I thought :frusty:, but it was a labor of love and I was hell bent to complete this project. :ranger:

After searching through the FTDNA projects I ended up with 1929 samples.

Over the last couple of days I've been doing QC work. First I went through and removed copies of the same sample, and samples with the same common ancestor. That got it down to 1888 samples. Then I added a surname column to the spreadsheet and went through the whole list so I could check and remove multiple entries with the same/very similar surnames in the same county with the same haplogroup.

I am now down to 1830 samples and feel I've done a lot eliminate bias caused by multiple entries, samples from the same family/ancestor etc.

1830 samples is almost triple the size of the confirmed SNPs in FTDNA's British DNA by Counties project...the starting point for my project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles?iframe=yresults

Before interpolating the generic P312 and generic R1b numbers U152 makes up 114 of 1830 samples or 6.23% of England.
After allocating the generic P312 and R1b numbers to the various R1b haplogroups based on their percentages of known haplogroups, U152 comes out to 153 samples or 8.4% of England.

Here's the grand totals (Like U152, the other R1b haplgroups and I1 and I2 are interpolated percentages..there was some generic I haplogroup samples that I allocated between I1 and I2)


R1b = 56.8% (U106=22.5%, L21=16.5%, U152=8.4%, DF27=7.8%, CTS4528 =.8%,DF88 = .5%, DF19=.3%)
R1a = 3.9%
I1 = 16.6%
I2 = 9.4%
G = 4.9%
E = 3.1%
J2 = 2.9%
J1 = .8%
Q = .7%
T = .4%
N = .2%
C = .1%
A/F/H/N/R2 = .2%

There will be more to follow. At some point I will create a new thread as this applies to more than just U152

MitchellSince1893
12-29-2015, 04:53 AM
Here is the updated pre interpolated percentages for U152 in England. I tried to combine counties together so that there would be at least 40 samples per geographic area. Some fell short of this goal but combining these counties with neighboring counties would obscure the significance of U152 in these areas.

Area___________________U152%____Total Samples
Norfolk_________________15.1%_____73
Durham________________ 13.5%_____37
Cumbria________________12.2%_____41
Essex__________________ 11.7%_____60
Suffolk__________________ 8.9%____101
Warwickshire_____________8.7%_____46
Lincolnshire/Rutland_______ 8.3%_____60
Buckingham/Hertford______ 7.7%_____52
Cheshire________________ 7.7%_____39
Cornwall________________ 6.7%_____60
Derby/Nottingham_________6.6%_____61
Kent____________________ 6.1%_____66
London/Middlesex_________ 5.8%____138
Bedford/Cambridge________5.5%_____55
Lancashire_______________ 5.4%_____92
Wiltshire_________________5.1%_____39
Yorkshire________________ 5.0%____159
Northumberland___________5.0%_____40
Gloucester_______________ 4.8%_____62
Somerset________________ 4.3%____ 69
Staffordshire_____________ 4.0%____ 50
Devonshire_______________4.0%___ 151
Dorset/Hampshire/IOW_____3.4%____58
Surrey/Sussex____________3.2%____ 62
Hereford/Salop/Worcester__ 3.1%____65
Berkshire/Oxfordshire______2.4%____41
Leicester/Northampton_____0.0%____ 53

7108
On average the interpolated percentages would be about 2% more e.g. Kent might be closer to 8% once you allocate the generic R1b and generic P312.

When I have more time and energy I may go back and do an interpolated % version.