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View Full Version : Europe's Fourth Ancestral "tribe" uncovered.



JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-16-2015, 05:47 PM
I think this may be related to R1b expansion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34832781


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-11/uoc-so111315.php

Jean M
11-16-2015, 06:13 PM
I think this may be related to R1b expansion?

No. It is the discovery being discussed on the thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5833-Teal-discovered-!!

This is the mystery component in Yamnaya which was surmised to be connected to the Causasus, and now we know that it dates from the Palaeolithic there. The BBC set it in the context of the spread of Yamnaya and its descendant cultures in the Copper Age, which certainly carried R1b and R1a. But the ancient chaps in the Caucasus were Y-DNA J.

ADW_1981
11-16-2015, 06:25 PM
One of the mind boggling things is that WHG and EHG are nearly the same component. However, the western ones appear to be YDNA I2, and the much older C-V20...but in the east they appear to be descended from YDNA R. I wonder if this simply implies there was continuous contact and sharing between west and east for 30-40K years, but only a subset of the more recent Y lineages would be successful.

It might also explain why odd ball lineages of R1 exist in western Europe at an early time, but were not successful in the long run.

Jean M
11-16-2015, 07:49 PM
One of the mind boggling things is that WHG and EHG are nearly the same component. However, the western ones appear to be YDNA I2, and the much older C-V20...but in the east they appear to be descended from YDNA R. I wonder if this simply implies there was continuous contact and sharing between west and east for 30-40K years, but only a subset of the more recent Y lineages would be successful.

That is extremely unlikely. The Last Glacial Maximum pinned down surviving groups of humans in habitable pockets of Eurasia. In between those pockets the terrain could be virtually impassible. So relatively small groups spent a long time isolated and forced to inbreed. So you would get genetic drift. That's why we can detect these separate components in the European gene pool. The paper does explain this. As the climate improved, people could travel further afield. Indeed they had to in order to track animals which were also on the move.



It might also explain why odd ball lineages of R1 exist in western Europe at an early time, but were not successful in the long run.

There are no oddball R1 lineages in western Europe at an early time that I know of. You may be thinking of R1b-V88 in Neolithic Iberia. That was known to be a lineage that split early from the rest of R1b and seemed to have been swept up in the dispersal of farmers from the Near East in the Neolithic, because it ended up in North Africa and Chad. The sample in Neolithic Spain told us that thinking was on the right lines. It is not difficult to see how one chap could have wandered away from the rest of the R1b in Siberia heading for the European steppe and gone south of the Caspian instead to join farmers. R1b-V88 is not an unsuccessful lineage. It does survive. It is found in the Near East, North Africa, Chad, Sardinia and some Jewish groups.

But Europe was overrun by the Indo-Europeans carrying other types of R1b, so those dominate in Europe today.

ADW_1981
11-16-2015, 08:27 PM
That is extremely unlikely. The Last Glacial Maximum pinned down surviving groups of humans in habitable pockets of Eurasia. In between those pockets the terrain could be virtually impassible. So relatively small groups spent a long time isolated and forced to inbreed. So you would get genetic drift. That's why we can detect these separate components in the European gene pool. The paper does explain this. As the climate improved, people could travel further afield. Indeed they had to in order to track animals which were also on the move.



Why is there a nearly undetectable difference between WHG and EHG until you reach a very high K in Admixture algorithm then? I'm not really talking about the Caucasus cluster, because I realize the paper addresses this.

The oddball lineages of R I am referring to are low resolution ones such as the R1b found in El Portalon, and some Central European R1 that was found.

Jean M
11-16-2015, 08:53 PM
The oddball lineages of R I am referring to are low resolution ones such as the R1b found in El Portalon, and some Central European R1 that was found.

Low resolution = we do not have enough Y-DNA to actually work out what the haplogroup is, so everyone can have a lovely time guessing that it could be their favourite one. This is not science. So I don't have any R1b in my table for El Portalón, which by the way is not very early. It is Copper Age. So it would not be madly improbable to have R1b there of some variety, perhaps the Neolithic type. I am not fighting the idea. I just don't have any solid evidence.